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So if I hear employees are careless, then I find employees that are taking care,
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and tell stories about that.
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When employees are blamed for the problems, I help find the employee stories
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where the employee has fixed that problem.
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Finding the people that are the solution to the problem that you have and recognizing
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and celebrating that seems to get more people interested in solving the problems that you have.
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Welcome to the Safety Leadership Collective Podcast. We hope you enjoy today's featured message.
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Hi, it's Mike with the Portage County Safety Council. I'm here with Andy Barker,
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all the way from Scotland. So welcome to the podcast, Andy.
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Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here, sir. You are our very first guest
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from the UK, so I'm pretty excited about it.
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We've had people from Canada and different things all across the United States,
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But never the UK So our very first one We're very excited about that So tell
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our listeners a little bit about yourself Before we get started Sure
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And so I'm not going to apologize for the accent Because I'm Scottish and I
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can't do anything about it,
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But yeah, I'm a time-served electrician, so a blue-collar guy.
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Somebody asked me to get into safety, who was very big and powerful where I worked.
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So of course I said yes, even though all of me said, don't go, don't go.
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You know, I didn't understand how, you know, I only saw safety guys come in
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and tell me I did things wrong.
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And when things went wrong, they would tell you what we should have done right.
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And I was just very confused.
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But when I went, I decided I could do something different.
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So I've spent an entire career trying to work out how I can help you do your
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job better and safer, not how do I help me make sure that the dashboard is green
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and the activities are done.
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So I've lived and worked in the UK. I've worked all over Europe.
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I've lived and worked in Africa. I've lived and worked in the Middle East.
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And what I've found is that people are just people.
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Yes. We want trust. We want dignity. We want respect.
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And when you build values into your organizational processes, they sing, right?
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And performance get better. So I'm very proud. I'll give two things.
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So the work in the Middle East was a group role across 27 companies with a history
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of five to 15 fatal accidents.
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And when I showed leaders the path to trust and the workforce were convinced
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that they were trusted, we took that five to 15 to zero in two years.
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And three years after I left, the company was in London. Middle East Company
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was in London as a finalist for safety awards. Wow.
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I picked up the Community of Human and Organization Learning,
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if you're familiar with those.
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So I picked up their award for excellence in applied learning.
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So I'm very, very, very, very pleased of those achievements,
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but importantly, what they mean to safety.
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If you know what I mean here in the U S 80, a lot of times when we talk about what we call,
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soft skills or advanced human skills, depending on what circle you run in,
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sometimes we get this attitude, especially a blue collar guys that,
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Hey, that's all fluff, you know, and you would see it on LinkedIn.
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And I always challenge them with this question. I'm like, is it fluff or is it tough?
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And they look at me like, what do you mean? I'm like, is it fluff?
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Like we're full of hot air or is it tough to swallow? So we just ignore it.
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And they usually get that stone cold stare back at me that I'm like, no, is it really?
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Is it easier just to be a lazy leader and blame shift and do these different
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things instead of taking the time with people, taking the time it takes to build trust?
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So what's a couple of things that you learned in this Middle East project where
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you came in, they're having five to 15 people die, you know,
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terrible safety standards.
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And you come in, instead of just telling them what lockout tagout is and what
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the ISO says and all these different things and all these standards and regulation,
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and the U.S. would be OSHA, obviously.
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But you came in and said, let's not focus on that as much. Let's just build trust.
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How did that work? How did you
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begin
Load full transcript
to translate that? And what are some things you learned from that?
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Yeah, soft skills are tough and you need to be tough for sure.
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And anybody that's asked me that kind of question that you were talking to the
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blue collar guy is inside. How tough does it feel when somebody disrespects you?
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I believe that we make sense of the world through narrative.
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And when we share narrative, what we're actually doing is share our beliefs.
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So the kind of thing that I heard, you know, I'm looking at accident investigations
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that are perfectly logical, right?
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A bit snapped because it was fatigued, right? A bit was missing from this because
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it wasn't maintained. It's all very straightforward.
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But the narrative spoke something different from what I was reading in reports.
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And the narratives were, well, employees are kind of careless here.
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Construction is a high hazard industry. There's always fatal accidents where we work.
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And, you know, we ask people to do things, they didn't do things and the accident
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happens. What do you want from me, Andy?
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And I'm sitting down, I remember sitting down with a leader who was responsible
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for a very significant national business that had about 60% of the fatal accidents
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statistically in his business.
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And he said, Andy, bear in mind, I've got a job title. I work for the chairman
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of the company. I'm a board representative, right?
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And this guy says, if I had to do all this safety stuff, I would never have
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time to do anything else.
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So if a powerful individual says that out loud to his team he's saying this
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is an alignment conversation gentlemen,
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right i believe this and if you want to get on in my world you will believe
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that too and the narrative gets carried and the powerless people are just like
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you just got to get your head down and get on with it right,
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so those are the kind of things that i have to i've had to overcome,
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with care and delicacy because powerful people you know they kind of have you
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seen my job title you need to be careful how you speak to me right let's dig
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into that a little bit because i i think that's something that i think,
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that's a blind spot for many leaders you know i've been in meetings where a plane manager is like,
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i want you to tell me be honest with me that i handle this specific situation
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well and everybody's body language just went mm-hmm mm-hmm.
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And then the one person that's fawning says, oh, you did a great job, right?
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And then you see the uncomfortableness of everyone else in the room,
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and you realize the power dynamics in play and what psychological safety actually
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means, not being a snowflake, but being able to speak up without repercussion,
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may not have been really there, you know?
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And, and I think blame shifting is lazy leadership and it's easy just to take
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a systematic problem and put it on people or, you know, we, we just,
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whatever it is, we often take
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our, even our policy is a, is a cop out, a blow off and then shove the blame on individuals. Right.
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And then oftentimes it's amazing how many people, how many leaders can't see
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that when you have people from different departments, there's employees that
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did not work together from different years. They were employed there.
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All had the same issues. I hear leaders all the time.
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Every time I hire someone, it's the same story. I'm like, that is either a system
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issue or a culture issue or a leadership issue.
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You're the common denominator, pal. I hate to tell you.
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You know, so how does how does that blame from your experience kind of set in,
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and what are some things employers could start to do about it to even shift
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the way they think about it before we even execute differently?
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How can we shift our mindset of instead of me being quick to blame our employees
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to really investigate what's going on and get to the root cause?
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It takes years, right? When you meet someone, you get to know them.
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The more you get to know them, the more you know how to behave around them.
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So if you're in a company that's been working for 30 years, they've established,
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right, these are the narratives, this is the way that we behave.
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A lot of the issues that I have with, you know, the psychological safety thing,
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we're sitting in a meeting, we're
going to get people to speak up,
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I'm going to see this, people are uncomfortable or whatever.
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But hang on a minute, it's taken us years to build the conditions that are surrounding
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us, why would we think that a single transaction or a single event is going to unpick all of that?
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It's going to take maybe not so many years, but it's going to take days,
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weeks, months, years to undo all of that social programming.
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So I'll keep the story to the chat that I was talking about there,
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and then we'll come back to siloed behaviors and organizational purpose and
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alignment, things like that.
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So I got a call. There's been another fatal accident. I went down to site.
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People are gathered and the leader spoke first, said, what happened here is
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that we're essentially, we'll say it's steel erection and construction.
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Somebody was supposed to tighten something. They didn't tighten something.
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That thing fell and we've had a fatal accident as a result.
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I was enough into the company to know that this was not true.
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I'm being told a story So that I will go away And just say An employee was careless
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Because that's a very familiar narrative For people And therefore It's one I've heard before Therefore.
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I was kind of expecting to hear that Therefore we're okay Right?
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Because we're all What can you do?
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Now, what I did was say, well, okay, that being the case, what's going to be different tomorrow?
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What do you mean? No, no, because no, no, I've told you the story. You now go away.
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No, no, no, no. We need to deal with this story. Despite knowing it was the
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wrong thing to fix, I knew we had to fix something. And he's given me an open
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door to say, this thing's broken. Okay, what are we going to do about that?
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So I did all of the work. It was a kind of dropped objects thing,
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right? So I did all of the work. I got investment from finance,
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I got procurement to do some things, and all the rest of it.
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Went back with a solution to his problem and said, I would like you to give
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this equipment to your team and say you bought this for them.
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I'm nowhere in this conversation. If it's about your safety guy,
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then safety owns safety.
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You own this. You go and tell them. So he went out and spoke to an assembled
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crew in the middle of the desert to say, I bought this for you because I think
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you'll be safer as a result.
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Their reaction was, hang on a minute, you don't do things for safety,
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right? What happens is that safety goes wrong and then one of us dies and the
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other one gets the blame for it, right?
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So we now have a new narrative going on. The leader saw the different response
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from his team and thought, oh, and we got upticks in productivity and we got
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upticks in attitude and you could see that something was changing.
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I went back to the owner of the company,
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And he's a kind of regional guy. So there's a general manager and then there's
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a big boss that runs, you know, this whole part of this particular business.
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So I went to the owner of the company, a Saudi national, a name in Saudi Arabia
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and said, can you please say thank you to this gentleman for what he just did for safety?
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You know, I can do that. So he just, I composed the email, put a story together,
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and he shared that story.
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And then I shared that thank you with all of the general managers.
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So now solving a safety problem makes it look socially attractive for a leader,
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and it feels good for the employees.
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That meant i mean he kind of looked at me and said i like what you did there but you know.
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I feel a bit manipulated it's okay right you get you get the credit you get
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the credit so we went along and that opened the door to fixing the bigger problems
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that we had in the company and the bigger problems were as you described,
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you know finance just control costs so we can't get the right equipment procurement
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can't get the right suppliers in because
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finance makers get the cheapest one and productivity is low because this equipment
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isn't right so now i've got the opportunity to bring people together and say
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the purpose of this company,
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is to deliver these products to our client what's the best version of that and
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how can we help each other achieve that,
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that's alignment to purpose it's
an hr thing it's making people feel proud of
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their contribution which generates trust which generates contribution which creates,
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capability which delivers performance and,
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that's a short version of a very hard journey that i had in a few years in the
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middle east but that's it's typical right of,
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the approach yeah so if i'm.
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Changing a narrative takes a long time. It's probably slow, repetitive, everyday experiences.
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And that situation where they buy, you know, a large amount of safety equipment
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that they're not used to, that's a high impactful moment.
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But all those small experiences, it's almost like the change of narrative,
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you have to rewrite, not just the narrative in your marketing or internal branding,
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so to speak, and internal communications, but it's really like you have to give
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them a completely new experience.
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Otherwise they won't buy in a lot of companies make that mistake right we we
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go on this campaign or core values around the wall and most of the time they're
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so ambiguous they mean absolutely nothing like safety first but we do nothing to.
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Nothing's aligned with them but you literally have to have not just the guiding
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principle but you have to have these experiences
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to begin to come in to change people's experience and then after a while they
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start to say okay then then a narrative begins to change because they actually
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buy in i see a lot of companies that have good systems, but they still have
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people problems because the employees aren't buying in.
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So in that experience in the Middle East or all your consulting experience,
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what are some things similar to the story you already told us,
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but what are some other things that you've seen that really help accelerate that employee buy-in?
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Yeah, back to storytelling, right? So the narrative that people have in their heads.
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So if I hear employees are careless, then I find employees that are taking care,
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and tell stories about that.
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When employees are blamed for the problems, I help find the employee stories
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where the employee has fixed that problem.
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So I'll give you an example, stuff on the wall, right?
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So we send out a memo, there's uncovered holes, people fall through uncovered
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holes, there's been 160 fatal accidents in the last three years when people fall through holes.
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Cover them up here's the procedure but nothing changes,
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right because people are like no no no if i point to the hole somebody gets
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in trouble i'm not getting in trouble and i'm not getting my mates in trouble
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so you know safety's done their job we've issued the memo we've done the audits
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we've right you know all that sort of stuff but that's just things
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doesn't change the social conditions on which engagement is founded i don't trust you,
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so what we do i found a gentleman so we used to do the $20 a month for,
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you know, and I had, I, I owned the budget and people would come to me and say,
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I want $500 to give away these. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
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Social recognition. That's what we're going for. Scrap the money, social recognition.
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And so we found a gentleman that covered a hole.
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We got his photograph. We published this as a story to say, Celine found a hole, covered it up.
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He has trust, professionalism and expertise in his job description and that's
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exactly the behavior we're looking for. Thank you Mr. Salim.
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Now, one story doesn't change the culture, right? So now we're on that,
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the social bell curve distribution, right? So I've got one story.
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And then some early adopters said, hang on a minute. If I fix a problem,
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I'm not going to get in trouble. I'm going to get thank you.
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I like that kind of attention.
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So somebody fixed a scaffold. They might not fix a scaffold.
00:16:38.461 --> 00:16:41.147
So we said, thank you very much for fixing the scaffold.
00:16:41.831 --> 00:16:45.381
That's trust. That's the behavior we want. And then I got five stories.
00:16:45.381 --> 00:16:48.402
And then I got 20 stories. and then I got 80 stories.
00:16:49.110 --> 00:16:54.191
And metrics, I don't believe in activity metrics, but what I could demonstrate
00:16:54.191 --> 00:16:58.898
is the change in narrative over months where people were like,
00:16:59.054 --> 00:17:00.732
oh, hang on a minute, I can do that, I can do that.
00:17:01.359 --> 00:17:05.202
I recognize the character in that story as being someone like me,
00:17:05.539 --> 00:17:09.340
and I'm willing to take that risk and get the right sort of attention.
00:17:09.908 --> 00:17:14.571
And then after you get to like 30, 40% of the workforce, it's no longer cool
00:17:14.571 --> 00:17:16.538
to be in the old story. You need to be in the new one.
00:17:17.171 --> 00:17:21.867
Right? Finding the people that are the solution to the problem that you have
00:17:22.232 --> 00:17:27.360
and recognizing and celebrating that seems to get more people interested in
00:17:27.360 --> 00:17:28.937
solving the problems that you have.
00:17:29.454 --> 00:17:33.460
Yeah. I tell employers all the time, it just, it made me reminded that I use
00:17:33.460 --> 00:17:36.310
a traffic light system. We have red light, yellow light, green light.
00:17:36.716 --> 00:17:39.700
Red light's your command and response. Someone's going to get hurt when you
00:17:39.700 --> 00:17:43.980
shut this down. It's urgency, right? But then you have your yellow situations
00:17:43.980 --> 00:17:45.801
where I probably shouldn't do that.
00:17:46.085 --> 00:17:48.350
So that's going to be where we come in and coach and redirect.
00:17:48.350 --> 00:17:52.930
And then what everyone forgets about, especially from my experience in manufacturing,
00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:54.299
I'm not sure why, is green light.
00:17:54.735 --> 00:17:58.870
Green light is we recognize what they're doing well, but we want them to do.
00:17:58.870 --> 00:18:02.380
And what I hear you're saying is when they do something like that,
00:18:02.380 --> 00:18:05.680
you find a hole that we're covered up. We have a safety issue that the employee
00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:08.712
fixes. We recognize that and not just recognize it.
00:18:09.182 --> 00:18:12.851
We apply meaning by reframing it and connecting it to the core value.
00:18:13.458 --> 00:18:16.575
Or the cultural value that we're trying to promote. So if that's trust,
00:18:17.069 --> 00:18:21.086
that we trust you, we're taking that particular task, this activity.
00:18:21.579 --> 00:18:24.770
Because sometimes if we, you know, in the U.S., we have like these employee
00:18:24.770 --> 00:18:26.370
of the month things and they always
00:18:26.370 --> 00:18:30.040
backfire because someone always sees something that person does wrong.
00:18:30.040 --> 00:18:33.340
Oh, that guy, you're picking that guy. You know, they kind of have this whole
00:18:33.340 --> 00:18:37.000
thing about it and attitude and they get the parking space up front and it can
00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:39.784
actually cause division unintentionally, right?
00:18:40.091 --> 00:18:42.590
And so we always tell people like, if you're going to do something like that,
00:18:42.590 --> 00:18:47.410
recognize, reward the behavior of the task, and then go back and tie it back
00:18:47.410 --> 00:18:50.090
to the core value, which always reinforces our core values.
00:18:50.090 --> 00:18:54.860
So whether your poster says trust or not, you're literally all your communication,
00:18:54.860 --> 00:18:55.930
it doesn't cost money, right?
00:18:55.930 --> 00:19:01.300
You're taking a two to five second connecting point when you're honoring a specific
00:19:01.300 --> 00:19:06.400
person back to the core value. And it starts to see that until it leavens the
00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:08.291
whole culture, right? This is fun.
00:19:08.453 --> 00:19:12.870
There's a lot of intrinsic motivation. I want to do this because I think it's
00:19:12.870 --> 00:19:18.500
a good thing. It's way, way different from $20, right? Because you've only got
00:19:18.500 --> 00:19:21.054
$5, $20 a week to hand out.
00:19:21.692 --> 00:19:25.518
And somebody will say there like you say what are you giving that guy for i've
00:19:25.518 --> 00:19:28.896
got a great story there was a bunch of it there was a work crew
00:19:29.158 --> 00:19:33.468
who were always beating up on one of the guys because one of the guys was dragging
00:19:33.468 --> 00:19:37.428
the team down wouldn't wear this gear wouldn't put it on properly right it's
00:19:37.428 --> 00:19:38.927
uncomfortable and all the rest of it
00:19:39.235 --> 00:19:42.558
and on this particular day gave up and said all right.
00:19:43.518 --> 00:19:46.869
Stop getting on my bag i'll do it for you right that's fine
00:19:47.246 --> 00:19:50.198
and the safety guy comes up and says oh thanks for wearing all your gear properly
00:19:50.198 --> 00:19:55.618
there's 20 bucks and he's like so the resentment amongst the crew right was
00:19:55.618 --> 00:20:02.081
there but yeah there's a transition what i often see and i think you kind of hinted at there
00:20:02.470 --> 00:20:05.658
there's a central committee policy admin.
00:20:06.331 --> 00:20:11.348
Group of people that administer things and they say oh that's a good story let's
00:20:11.348 --> 00:20:13.836
share that or that's a worth recognition let's share that,
00:20:14.289 --> 00:20:18.158
what you haven't done is operationalize that through line management so what
00:20:18.158 --> 00:20:22.968
we did was show the way here's stories here's the behavior that's worth recognition,
00:20:23.600 --> 00:20:27.418
at a workforce level and then we stepped it up and said well it must be the
00:20:27.418 --> 00:20:31.358
supervisors that are encouraging people so then we recognize the supervisors
00:20:31.358 --> 00:20:33.268
for running a team takes a bit
00:20:33.268 --> 00:20:37.498
of the burden off us but it starts to get people that are a bit more power,
00:20:38.113 --> 00:20:43.401
on board with the listen respond recognize people that are fixing the problems
00:20:43.738 --> 00:20:47.478
then we go to the managers right and when we get to the managers saying hey
00:20:47.478 --> 00:20:50.942
look at your crew then that manager's got bragging rights with others,
00:20:51.476 --> 00:20:56.658
and starts encouraging things and then at the board level i started with,
00:20:57.238 --> 00:21:01.318
you know the questions that leaders could ask that would invite other people
00:21:01.318 --> 00:21:06.951
into problem
solving to make problem solving via solutions and contribution and things like that,
00:21:07.614 --> 00:21:13.581
socially attractive as a company so we you know you build the momentum and then after a while,
00:21:14.237 --> 00:21:19.359
you've got a social architecture within line management that makes problem solving
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:24.579
engaging and worth your while doing so now we're operationalized then i can
00:21:24.579 --> 00:21:28.179
move on to the next thing and say yeah we're not done yet i'm going to push you a bit further.
00:21:30.338 --> 00:21:35.791
You need to shift away from, because safety quite often administers observation
00:21:35.791 --> 00:21:39.641
programs, recognition programs, and things like that, which means it's somebody
00:21:39.641 --> 00:21:41.582
else's job other than line management.
00:21:41.913 --> 00:21:45.953
And I have to step out of my day job to manage safety as well.
00:21:46.516 --> 00:21:51.711
And I'm just too busy, right? So how do you make it inside your job description,
00:21:51.711 --> 00:21:52.752
what you do day and daily?
00:21:53.193 --> 00:21:56.201
One of the members of our safety council is named Pyrotech. They have a plant
00:21:56.201 --> 00:22:00.221
nearby, probably 20 minutes from my home in a city called Aurora, Ohio.
00:22:00.601 --> 00:22:06.321
And they do an annual survey. They had 5% participation according to the survey
00:22:06.321 --> 00:22:08.755
and their safety. Like this is how, yeah, pretty rough.
00:22:09.213 --> 00:22:14.581
And so they're talking about it. They had a new guy on staff from another company.
00:22:14.581 --> 00:22:16.563
He said, you know, I used to work for this other company.
00:22:17.097 --> 00:22:20.434
We did a find it fix it program. It was pretty cool. You should check it out.
00:22:20.852 --> 00:22:24.132
So they decided it's a good idea. So they put some structure behind it,
00:22:24.243 --> 00:22:28.683
leadership got behind it, and they said, okay, if you see a safety problem, you can fix it.
00:22:29.020 --> 00:22:32.481
You have to go to a safety committee member to make sure it's the check that
00:22:32.481 --> 00:22:35.331
it's actual safety hazard and that you're qualified to do it,
00:22:35.331 --> 00:22:36.404
which is reasonable, right?
00:22:36.787 --> 00:22:41.261
So they go on and they said, okay, you can fix it. If not, they'll put a direct
00:22:41.261 --> 00:22:42.534
ticket in for maintenance, right?
00:22:42.737 --> 00:22:45.331
But they empower the person to fix it, but it got them involved.
00:22:45.331 --> 00:22:49.221
And so, and they did some incentivization. If you found a problem,
00:22:49.221 --> 00:22:52.771
you could kind of get your name and a hat for drawing for needless stuff like
00:22:52.771 --> 00:22:56.021
smoke detectors, not cash, just like mediocre stuff.
00:22:56.381 --> 00:22:59.501
I don't know why. Anyways, I would have did it with recognition,
00:22:59.501 --> 00:23:06.529
like you said. But
at the same time, nine months later, did another survey that 70% participation now.
00:23:07.341 --> 00:23:13.691
They flipped it from 5% to 70%. They solved 250 safety issues and their maintenance
00:23:13.691 --> 00:23:17.216
costs went down because maintenance wasn't worried about a skid in front of a fire extinguisher.
00:23:17.681 --> 00:23:19.801
They were dealing with real maintenance issues.
00:23:20.361 --> 00:23:25.244
So I did a podcast with them. They won a local award at our county level.
00:23:26.099 --> 00:23:31.109
And I'm on the call with the production manager and the safety director.
00:23:31.438 --> 00:23:36.966
So I said, Kim, how did this affect your culture? Did it have an impact?
00:23:37.256 --> 00:23:39.595
Because you always hear that thing now on LinkedIn. You see like,
00:23:39.938 --> 00:23:42.422
there's no such thing as safety culture, which I think is BS.
00:23:42.887 --> 00:23:45.574
There's no such thing as safety culture. It's just corporate culture.
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:50.445
They changed your safety culture, which actually bled into the corporate culture.
00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:54.124
And I said, how did this affect your corporate culture at large?
00:23:54.490 --> 00:23:58.581
She said it revolutionized it she said mike i'm not kidding getting people involved
00:23:58.581 --> 00:24:02.191
with safety they come in with smiles on their face they love to come in there
00:24:02.191 --> 00:24:03.511
are high pressure seasons
00:24:03.917 --> 00:24:07.161
they're onboarding new things and plants are moving around there's stress it's
00:24:07.161 --> 00:24:11.031
not like it's stress-free work environment but she said people come in they
00:24:11.031 --> 00:24:13.961
speak up to managers when they see a problem they're like they do it politely
00:24:13.961 --> 00:24:16.630
they're like hey i see this maybe we could try a b or c
00:24:17.019 --> 00:24:20.897
and the managers aren't offended by it and everything's just it revolutionized our culture
00:24:21.251 --> 00:24:25.301
people love coming to work and i hear all this stuff i'm like your safety programming
00:24:25.301 --> 00:24:30.144
or how you i'm going to call programming your safety approach can actually revolutionize
00:24:30.486 --> 00:24:34.521
your entire corporate culture so have you seen that in some of the the companies you worked with
00:24:34.921 --> 00:24:38.441
i've posted on this and i think sometimes,
00:24:38.941 --> 00:24:43.704
we're back to that narrative right the core i'm trying not to be.
00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:49.637
But there's a core in the profession that thinks audits, inspections,
00:24:49.637 --> 00:24:53.907
and senior safety walks and all the rest of it are the better way to the future.
00:24:54.145 --> 00:24:57.750
And if they don't work, they want to know a better way of doing those things.
00:24:58.029 --> 00:25:01.849
So I post things like, you don't have safety problems.
00:25:02.092 --> 00:25:06.837
Safety is how business problems show up. And folk are like, I don't believe in that, right?
00:25:07.537 --> 00:25:13.958
But I'm trying to explain. So, you know, I published a story a little while back.
00:25:14.537 --> 00:25:18.265
I was sitting with the general manager of our Sybil's company,
00:25:18.462 --> 00:25:22.137
and I'm talking about values and leadership and that kind of thing.
00:25:22.537 --> 00:25:27.187
And he's politely nodding because he needs to do that because my boss is his boss.
00:25:27.541 --> 00:25:30.896
And somebody came in and said, I need to tell you there's been an accident.
00:25:31.152 --> 00:25:35.964
An employee, third party, somebody providing plant and equipment for us,
00:25:36.277 --> 00:25:40.807
tried to put the drive belt back on a compressor while it was still running.
00:25:40.807 --> 00:25:43.437
When the drive belt caught, he lost the fingers in his hand, right?
00:25:43.762 --> 00:25:47.007
And he looked at me and he said, values, really? Leadership,
00:25:47.007 --> 00:25:48.514
really? You can't fix stupid.
00:25:48.879 --> 00:25:53.847
Without going into all of the details, I said, I will come back in a week and
00:25:53.847 --> 00:25:58.075
show you why this is not just a leadership issue, it's you that needs to fix it.
00:25:58.295 --> 00:26:01.714
And he went, I'll give you two. So...
00:26:02.265 --> 00:26:06.343
Anyway, I already knew how the company treated this, and we're back to that
00:26:06.343 --> 00:26:07.873
siloed behavior, right?
00:26:07.873 --> 00:26:12.063
So production can't get the equipment they want because finance tell procurement,
00:26:12.063 --> 00:26:16.943
which is the cheapest supplier. The cheapest supplier is not investing in skills,
00:26:16.943 --> 00:26:19.244
not investing in equipment so stuff breaks.
00:26:19.564 --> 00:26:22.803
It wasn't a technician trying to fix it. It's a laborer because we've only got
00:26:22.803 --> 00:26:26.033
one technician. He says, what you do, the belts are loose, right?
00:26:26.033 --> 00:26:28.799
They're always dropping off. Just flick it back on and it'll work.
00:26:29.212 --> 00:26:33.345
But don't switch it off because if you switch it off there's a penalty clause
00:26:33.565 --> 00:26:38.613
so that isn't a safety issue it's just a safety issue has revealed the fact
00:26:38.613 --> 00:26:42.843
that we're not talking to each other about what we need to run the business so
00:26:43.080 --> 00:26:46.968
ask the finance guy can you help us with a business case ask the procurement guy
00:26:47.380 --> 00:26:50.593
how do you evaluate the supply chain what do you really want to do with your
00:26:50.593 --> 00:26:52.390
work ask the operations guy,
00:26:53.034 --> 00:26:57.277
do you have any issues with this equipment he's like so much downtime from all the.
00:26:58.123 --> 00:27:02.073
So we put them all together come up with an outline of a business plan for me
00:27:02.073 --> 00:27:04.551
and tell me if there's any ROI and they
did,
00:27:05.342 --> 00:27:09.695
So I went back, called a meeting with the general manager, got his team round about him.
00:27:10.206 --> 00:27:13.512
And I said, the team is going to explain what the business problem is that we
00:27:13.512 --> 00:27:15.065
saw in a safety issue for you.
00:27:15.344 --> 00:27:18.812
And they talked and then he and I sat and had a cup of coffee.
00:27:18.812 --> 00:27:22.844
And after he'd muttered some things under his breath at me, I said,
00:27:23.099 --> 00:27:26.913
you need to align your people on what we're here to do.
00:27:27.383 --> 00:27:31.772
And it's the role of leadership to make sure that people work together,
00:27:32.259 --> 00:27:33.752
not dominate each other.
00:27:33.752 --> 00:27:37.272
Because my purpose is more important than your purpose, but listen to the knowledge
00:27:37.272 --> 00:27:41.602
that we have so that we can solve the problems that we have rather than getting
00:27:41.602 --> 00:27:45.360
in fights about, no, no, no, no, you can't do that because I'm more important than you.
00:27:45.824 --> 00:27:49.064
So that is a you issue. Anyway, fair enough.
00:27:49.406 --> 00:27:53.342
And that's all part of it, right?
00:27:53.342 --> 00:27:57.992
So as long as we chase safety solutions to this safety problem that we think
00:27:57.992 --> 00:28:02.622
we see, have we got all the way into the social systems that created the conditions
00:28:02.622 --> 00:28:04.737
for that issue to exist in the first place.
00:28:05.033 --> 00:28:09.973
And once that narrative's set in, it's so hard to shift. It takes a long time, doesn't it?
00:28:10.587 --> 00:28:15.070
You need a more powerful narrative, right? So employee, you can't fix stupid,
00:28:15.070 --> 00:28:17.990
right? It's like a strap line that they run by.
00:28:18.850 --> 00:28:26.214
And it controls things. You talk about lazy leadership, but our brains are very energy efficient.
00:28:26.499 --> 00:28:31.294
So if you've got a story in your head, it's because it's efficient for you to think like that.
00:28:31.683 --> 00:28:35.790
So employees are stupid. Somebody trying to put a belt on a compressor while
00:28:35.790 --> 00:28:39.040
it's running, that is easy to fit with that narrative, right?
00:28:39.040 --> 00:28:41.429
I don't need to look any further than that, right?
00:28:41.644 --> 00:28:45.410
But when a more powerful one comes along, it's like, dang, your boys aren't
00:28:45.410 --> 00:28:47.697
playing fair, and you can see it.
00:28:47.813 --> 00:28:50.912
It's like, that's more powerful than employees should. And actually,
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:56.712
if I get these guys to work together better, what will that do for the company?
00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:02.052
So now that safety has shown that we've got business problems,
00:29:02.290 --> 00:29:06.260
safety becomes the bridge to better performance, right?
00:29:06.260 --> 00:29:10.250
And the culture of that organization changed because of the way that
we listened
00:29:10.250 --> 00:29:15.497
to each other, the way that we supported each other, because we now know that
00:29:15.613 --> 00:29:18.608
that not just fixes safety, but it fixes everything else.
00:29:19.148 --> 00:29:22.980
I just came across an article real recently regarding small,
00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:24.658
medium-sized companies in the U.S.
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:29.645
And according to the research, they said in small to medium-sized companies,
00:29:29.836 --> 00:29:31.340
I'm not sure why they only looked at those.
00:29:31.340 --> 00:29:34.780
I don't know if it's just the survey of the demographic of that organization,
00:29:34.780 --> 00:29:38.811
but they said, in small to medium-sized companies, particular manufacturing,
00:29:39.176 --> 00:29:41.970
when you have a culture of care or,
00:29:42.426 --> 00:29:47.964
the employees genuinely believe that you actually care for them and their well-being.
00:29:48.661 --> 00:29:51.261
There's an increase in performance by 25%.
00:29:52.782 --> 00:29:56.164
And it's, it's mind blowing. If you just make them believe that you care,
00:29:56.164 --> 00:29:58.964
you change that narrative. I actually care about your safety.
00:29:59.347 --> 00:30:02.575
So I'm going to do what I have to, to create these things, give your PPE,
00:30:02.761 --> 00:30:05.971
improve these systems, not pressure you, all those different things.
00:30:06.209 --> 00:30:10.524
Performance actually increases. And for some reason, and a lot of our thinking,
00:30:10.524 --> 00:30:13.754
and we, we tend to think, well, if I have to do these things,
00:30:13.754 --> 00:30:17.093
it's going to hinder productivity, but all the research shows opposite of that.
00:30:17.401 --> 00:30:22.120
But isn't it interesting? thing there's a guy I follow on Instagram,
00:30:22.753 --> 00:30:26.939
and you know it was a penny drop moment for me because I'm a fact and logic
00:30:27.171 --> 00:30:29.719
guy I'm engineering background right
00:30:30.149 --> 00:30:35.134
when I got into the you know the HR soft skills kind of thing that we talked
00:30:35.134 --> 00:30:38.544
about earlier on I figured out the formula and how to measure it right because
00:30:38.544 --> 00:30:44.497
that's the world that I come from but an interesting story I might I'm jumping around a little bit but,
00:30:44.979 --> 00:30:50.054
you know the finance guy when i showed up in the middle east told me to my face
00:30:50.054 --> 00:30:52.561
on day one i don't like safety,
00:30:53.228 --> 00:30:54.575
it's just expensive.
00:30:55.248 --> 00:31:00.714
And your salary is more than the checks i put in coffins so fill in the blank
00:31:00.714 --> 00:31:05.314
right so even if you do your job you're still expensive i mean he would walk
00:31:05.314 --> 00:31:09.314
out the room when i went in and if anybody talked about safety he would shut them down.
00:31:09.314 --> 00:31:12.412
So he had no idea what I was doing in the company, none.
00:31:12.732 --> 00:31:16.261
But what he did see was procurement buying more expensive equipment.
00:31:16.888 --> 00:31:22.142
What he did see is me asking some people of his team to go on a plane and go
00:31:22.142 --> 00:31:24.852
to another country to set up projects.
00:31:24.852 --> 00:31:28.602
And it's like, you're expensive equipment, you're expensive people,
00:31:28.602 --> 00:31:32.132
you're expensive hotels and suitcase costs.
00:31:32.439 --> 00:31:36.732
So he told his team, right, this project that's kicking off in the wind because
00:31:36.732 --> 00:31:40.012
I was like, we're going to do this from the beginning now and we're going to
00:31:40.012 --> 00:31:42.632
talk to each other and be nice and we're going to set up a whole project and
00:31:42.632 --> 00:31:43.491
we're going to see how it runs.
00:31:43.903 --> 00:31:50.372
Okay so we we did that and he told his team to do the numbers so he called me,
00:31:50.832 --> 00:31:52.992
pretty much the close of that project but,
00:31:53.512 --> 00:31:57.772
kind of just about before we're just tidying up kind of thing and in my office
00:31:58.192 --> 00:32:01.968
never get a call from this guy right so i showed up he said just so you know,
00:32:02.485 --> 00:32:05.829
expensive equipment expensive people right all of this sort of stuff
00:32:06.270 --> 00:32:09.792
i've been running the numbers so that i could go to the owner of the company
00:32:09.792 --> 00:32:12.098
and finally get you fired for being expensive
00:32:12.452 --> 00:32:18.629
but i ran the numbers and you nailed it we we were 25 percent more profitable
00:32:18.954 --> 00:32:25.012
more profitable we made 25 percent more money on that project explain so i did.
00:32:25.752 --> 00:32:29.392
I i didn't know i said i'm gonna have to come back because i i was not focused
00:32:29.392 --> 00:32:33.202
on those numbers but let me let me figure it out but what we did is we got the
00:32:33.202 --> 00:32:34.759
right equipment that was more efficient,
00:32:35.311 --> 00:32:40.342
what we did is create the site conditions where people could get the equipment
00:32:40.342 --> 00:32:44.430
that they needed in and out and people could access things because they were working together.
00:32:44.767 --> 00:32:49.622
We changed the client specification away from what they wanted at the end and
00:32:49.622 --> 00:32:52.112
got engineering to do things that we could build.
00:32:52.865 --> 00:32:57.662
Nobody ever talked to me about that, right? Come now. So it became faster,
00:32:57.662 --> 00:33:00.278
more efficient, and we never hurt anybody.
00:33:00.912 --> 00:33:08.524
So safety, it's just a path to get people to collaborate, and it's the collaboration,
00:33:08.524 --> 00:33:10.728
the contribution of your knowledge.
00:33:11.018 --> 00:33:14.194
Because when you look at an org chart, I see everybody that should be in the
00:33:14.194 --> 00:33:17.114
meeting, right? When I go to the meeting, why are they not
there?
00:33:17.114 --> 00:33:18.164
We don't like them very much.
00:33:20.364 --> 00:33:23.975
That's not your choice, right? We need that knowledge. Get them here.
00:33:24.376 --> 00:33:28.155
And when it all came together, 25% more profit, right? Right.
00:33:28.776 --> 00:33:34.330
So the CFO of that company became an Andy fan, which really helped, I have to say.
00:33:34.976 --> 00:33:39.616
It's like, I'm tired of the list. But yeah, but that's the thing, right?
00:33:40.465 --> 00:33:45.616
My purpose is to make this company a better version of the company.
00:33:45.616 --> 00:33:50.363
And I now see how your role plays in that. That's a powerful moment.
00:33:50.863 --> 00:33:53.916
That's a powerful moment, especially when they're telling you that bodies are
00:33:53.916 --> 00:33:56.278
cheaper than paying you. I mean, that's incredible.
00:33:56.580 --> 00:33:59.679
Having overcome that kind of mindset. So that's amazing.
00:33:59.907 --> 00:34:05.446
So, you know, I guess lots of US centric, but you will, you will have in your
00:34:05.446 --> 00:34:09.396
head human rights issues and all the rest of it in the Middle East and,
00:34:09.396 --> 00:34:14.430
you know, Africa. And these are the places that I've, that I've worked, but guess what?
00:34:14.611 --> 00:34:17.013
Treat people with dignity, trust, and respect.
00:34:17.332 --> 00:34:21.396
They open up, you get information. Information is the way to make informed decisions.
00:34:21.396 --> 00:34:23.144
Informed decisions make everything better.
00:34:23.491 --> 00:34:26.566
It's not that simple. It's kind of hard to crack the nut, right?
00:34:26.566 --> 00:34:30.104
But fundamentally, that's what you need to work on to get you somewhere.
00:34:30.775 --> 00:34:35.216
A former U.S. president said, there are no easy answers, but there are simple
00:34:35.216 --> 00:34:37.904
answers. And we need the courage to do what's right.
00:34:38.339 --> 00:34:43.236
It's not easy to do per se, but it is simple. And I think that's sometimes we
00:34:43.236 --> 00:34:46.385
lose sight of that for sure. So, Andy, this has been awesome.
00:34:46.548 --> 00:34:49.076
Man, we'll have to get you back on in the future and just dig into some more
00:34:49.076 --> 00:34:51.633
of these stories. I absolutely love it. I had a great time.
00:34:52.074 --> 00:34:55.426
If someone's listening to this and they're saying, man, I hear what you're saying.
00:34:55.426 --> 00:34:59.056
And I just don't know how to get started. What's one thing, one action step,
00:34:59.056 --> 00:35:02.806
one call to action that you would say, if you're going to do this one thing today, what would it be?
00:35:03.154 --> 00:35:07.616
If somebody is explaining something to you and it automatically fits with a
00:35:07.616 --> 00:35:12.082
narrative you already hold, ask, is there more to this than we think?
00:35:12.847 --> 00:35:16.226
Because that's the only way that you're going to change the narrative that you hold.
00:35:16.563 --> 00:35:20.070
And if you're a powerful person, they might be telling you that because they
00:35:20.070 --> 00:35:21.508
know what you believe already.
00:35:21.683 --> 00:35:25.330
That's perfect. So if someone's listening to this again, and they're like,
00:35:25.330 --> 00:35:28.410
I need to get Andy in my corner and help me to make some changes in my place
00:35:28.410 --> 00:35:30.824
of work. How do they reach out to you? How do they get a hold of you?
00:35:31.120 --> 00:35:37.157
The website is orgtree, O-R-G-T-R-E-E dot co dot UK.
00:35:37.726 --> 00:35:41.563
I am Andy at orgtree dot me.
00:35:41.911 --> 00:35:46.620
The book there's so i wrote a book there's a lot of this narrative the science
00:35:46.620 --> 00:35:49.609
behind it and importantly how to map narrative
00:35:50.050 --> 00:35:55.350
into risk management and systems not a lot of guidebooks that give you the theory
00:35:55.350 --> 00:35:57.765
and the practical application so that's why i wrote it
00:35:58.148 --> 00:36:02.840
the invisible script is is on amazon it's cheaper than consultancy rates but
00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:05.642
i'm still happy to have the phone call about consultancy rates.
00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:10.820
Yeah i think man you put the model out there in the book And then people are
00:36:10.820 --> 00:36:13.485
going to say, I need someone to help guide me through this.
00:36:13.816 --> 00:36:17.530
You know, it's that hero's journey. They have the mentor that comes in and helps
00:36:17.530 --> 00:36:20.735
facilitate that thing. So I'm sure there's going to be people out there that
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:23.400
the book's great, but we need Andy because that's how it works.
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:25.037
And that's how the magic happens. Right.
00:36:25.513 --> 00:36:30.790
Just before you go, sorry, one more thing. I get a little bit concerned when
00:36:30.790 --> 00:36:36.540
I hear people talk about complexity because I think they're saying this is really
00:36:36.540 --> 00:36:40.448
complicated. You don't understand it. So you need me. I think it's really simple.
00:36:41.106 --> 00:36:46.086
I think it's really simple. I had five questions that I gave the board.
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:51.234
One at a time, they delivered those questions over the two years that created the change.
00:36:51.764 --> 00:36:54.231
Five questions. Five questions.
00:36:54.978 --> 00:36:58.473
Honest, simple, easy. That's that. But.
00:37:01.236 --> 00:37:05.828
Questions can be very, very powerful when they filter down a whole organization.
00:37:06.327 --> 00:37:08.225
Think about Boeing, and I'll leave it at that.
00:37:09.101 --> 00:37:13.611
Yes, that's awesome. Get the book to find out more. The Invisible Script on
00:37:13.611 --> 00:37:17.862
Amazon right now. Go check it out. So, Andy, thank you so much. I appreciate your time.
00:37:18.273 --> 00:37:21.591
To everybody out there listening, thanks for listening and be safe.
00:37:21.591 --> 00:37:24.543
Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.
00:37:24.670 --> 00:37:27.722
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