09. SARA COOPER: The Algorithm Is Hungry and So Are We bölümünün tam dökümü

sort of inner monologue, which is what the book essentially is, I just like found it spinning out of control and I was like, Yeah, we all feel like this sometimes. I'm just gonna write it. Nicole: Absolutely, especially now with social media being so prevalent and especially with influencers. Sara Cooper: yeah, it is it's all like everything is so overstimulating. Nicole: Something I found fascinating about Brie is that she's easy to judge, but also incredibly lonely. Do you think Sara Cooper: Mm-hmm. Nicole: underneath all of her narcissism and ridiculousness is actually someone just desperate to be seen? Sara Cooper: absolutely I think that's such a good way of putting it. Absolutely. Yeah. I think she's very like my friend Anna Jacobs, who did the who did her book lunch with me, described her as isolated. I was like, that is exactly her problem. Like she just is she's so desperate for connection and so like again, ravenous for like other people and love and and meaning in her life, that she just like sh she's got like no way of being she can't she can't hold on to anything, she can't touch anybody. She's just like in her own little box. And I think, like to your point, I think she's smart and I think she's kind in her way. And I think she's just been driven to something that she can't control. Nicole: I agree when I was reading it, I found her to be very witty, very smart. You have to be Sara Cooper: Thank you. Nicole: at some degree to build a following. But in this day Sara Cooper: I totally agree. Yeah. Nicole: and age, these influencers, it's almost like they don't have to have actual human connection. So when they have Sara Cooper: Okay. Nicole: these huge, large following people watching them, they don't have genuine connections. It's such a Sara Cooper: No. Nicole: bizarre phenomenon, especially today in social media. Sara Cooper: Yeah. I totally agree. And it was really important to me that she's smart because like you're saying, I think in order to build something you have to be and you have like I think most people who fall into these kind of traps of like total i social isolation like she does are smart and are looking for meaning. And I think like I didn't want to make fun of her. I think I wanted her to be like a real person who just went off the deep end. Nicole: Yes, absolutely. You definitely see that throughout the book too. And you feel for her. Sara Cooper: Thank you. thank you so much. I'm glad to hear that. Nicole: Brie has thousands of people watching her, yet she seems profoundly disconnected from genuine intimacy. Do you think Sara Cooper: Mm. Nicole: social media has created a strange situation where someone can be constantly witnessed without ever actually feeling known? Sara Cooper: I do, I think and I think that's a beautiful way of putting it actually. yeah, I I think we all feel like that sometimes. I mean, I'm not super active on social media. I am a little bit now because Ravness just came out, and it's been fun

interacting with all of you. but normally in my life I'm not very active on social media and I certainly every time I sort of log into Facebook or anything, I'm just it's more than Instagram, I think. I'm just like, wow, this is a world where like I I'm talking to people who I really like, who I haven't seen for fifteen, twenty years, you know? And that's kinda sad. Like I I should pick up the phone and call them. Nicole: So there's something very tragic about how quickly Brie translates an emotion into something consumable. She feels Sara Cooper: Mm-hmm. Nicole: uncomfortable, so she buys something. She feels insecure, so she creates content. She feels irrelevant, so she looks for engagement. Has she essentially lost the ability to sit with her discomfort? Sara Cooper: That is so well put. yeah, totally. Really, I mean that's like that's like a perfect constellation. yeah, I think she Nicole: Thank you. Sara Cooper: like I don't think she's able to deal with her feelings at all. I think that's part of that's like the major core of her problem, right? And I think that dates back to like her stuff with her mother and her stuff with like, you know, she's in this like sort of loveless marriage where she's sort of putting it on screen to look perfect, but can't can't even like connect to the one person who she's living with and the baby is the only one she can talk to. I think that like and and like you're saying she even makes the baby content ultimately. Like there's th she is not able to sit as you said, sit with your with her feelings at all. She's like lost that ability. Nicole: She's definitely took it to the extreme, but I feel like I could even relate to that because I'm a very Sara Cooper: Okay. Nicole: out of sight, out of mind person to deal Sara Cooper: Yeah. Yeah. Nicole: with things as well. Even just reading books. Like I'll finish a book, I'm on to the next one after I kind of gather my thoughts and do a little review about it. It's like I can't Sara Cooper: Yeah. Nicole: sit alone with my thoughts. It's too scary. Sara Cooper: I mean, it's scary. It's like we're I think also that we're in such like a crazy world right now and everything is spinning like out of control, like everywhere you look. And so it's it's sort of hard to sit with anything. Like we're all reaching for something, I think. Nicole: Yes, and there's always some tragic news event here and over here. It's it's a lot to take in Sara Cooper: It is and it's like you can volunteer and protest and it still feels like there's never never a way to actually make a big difference. And I think we all still have to, but it's very sysyfician. Like we it seems like we have to keep pushing up that boulder just sort of endlessly. Yeah, and I think it is true. Nicole: Absolutely. I feel the same way whenever I see those like sign this petition, like I'll always stand for something that I truly believe in. But like you said, it sometimes I think, is this even going to do anything? Sara Cooper: Right. And you have to 'cause what if it does? But yeah, it it can certainly Yeah. Yep. But it can certainly Nicole: Yeah, you have to stand for something. Yeah. Sara Cooper: feel like it's everything all at once. Nicole: Yes, for sure. So, one reader described her, Brie, as constantly searching for the next dopamine hit, while others Sara Cooper: Mm. Nicole: pointed out that her entire sense of self-worth seems attached to likes and comments. Do you think of Brie as someone addicted to validation? Sara Cooper: a billion percent. Yeah, she like that's what she's living for. And I think like I think she's just like again, I think she's a lonely, sad person who needs somebody to tell her she's doing a good job and nobody will. And I think actually that that's a thing that I found like right after ha like when I was pregnant and then afterwards, like you just want somebody to tell you you're doing okay, you know? 'Cause it all feels like what the fuck is going on. Like everything is so hard. No. Nicole: Absolutely. I I have two children and I had them back to back and I felt like nobody could relate to me. I was also the first person to have kids in my friend group. I live Sara Cooper: yeah. Nicole: far away from my parents. They're not really helpful. It was such Sara Cooper: Yeah. Nicole: an isolating experience. And I feel like unless you've been through that, you really don't know how much it means to just be like, hey, you're doing a good job. Sara Cooper: Absolutely, absolutely. I'm sorry you went through that. It's it's it's it's not it's really it's so hard. I had a friend Nicole: it's okay. It's okay. Sara Cooper: named Cotton. I'm just gonna call her out in case she's watching this, who's like not Nicole: Mm. Sara Cooper: somebody I know even super well. She was a we worked on a theater project together and she's just an awesome person, but she like reached out to me while I had postpartum depression and was like she just like sent me an email like, you're doing a good job, and I like burst out crying because it just meant so much, you know? So thanks, Cotton. Nicole: One of my girlfriends last night, she was like out drunk at a club. She was sending Sara Cooper: Yeah. Nicole: me voice notes because she saw that I'd taken my kids out for the whole weekend alone. And Sara Cooper: Well hard. Nicole: she sent me a voice note and she was like, I just wanna say like you're such a good mom. I wish I had you as a mom when I was younger, literally crying at like 3 a.m. Sara Cooper: my god. That's so beautiful. What a good friend. Nicole: It was so sweet, but absolutely and it just it made my whole day because I was like, That's so sweet to be seen Sara Cooper: Yeah. Nicole: and just genuinely appreciated for, you know, your efforts. It's Sara Cooper: I think we should. I'm gonna I'm gonna make more of an effort too. Nicole: Me too. I'm gonna reach out to those moms. I did a post on Instagram recently and it was rating reading spots as

a mom of two kids and I had so many, so many comments Sara Cooper: I saw that. It was so relatable. Nicole: from moms being like, This is so fucking true. Sara Cooper: Yeah. Especially like your one about the beach, it's like you think it you think it's possible. Nicole: You think, but it's not. And every time I'm so optimistic, because I live in Miami, so of course we go to the beach all the time. I'll be so Sara Cooper: Right. Nicole: optimistic. I'm like, I'm gonna bring my book. And no, every time it just gets sandy for no reason. Yes, so one day though, one day I'll be able to read at the beach. Yeah. Sara Cooper: I feel like that's the best case scenario, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Like when they're you twenty seven or something, sure. Nicole: So the publisher describes ravenous as a satire of performative femininity and hashtag motherhood. Sara Cooper: Mm-hmm. Nicole: What does performative femininity mean to you? Sara Cooper: okay. that means to me, that means having an idea of what you think that the world wants to see and how it will benefit you, in how woman how the idea of womanhood will help you advance yourself in some way. and even if it hurts other women still still showing that. That to me is what performative Nicole: Yes. Sara Cooper: femininity is. And I think like Bree is caught in that cycle. Nicole: Especially I mean, I don't want to give a spoiler, but when she goes live in the man's apartment, that was that was my favorite part of the book. And you see people being like, What are you doing there? Like, get out That was so funny. Sara Cooper: thank you. Like that was actually not in my outline originally and it just kind like happened and I was like, this is a thing the sheep would do, I guess. Nicole: Yeah. Sara Cooper: And like surprised me. Thank you. thank you so much. Nicole: It was so funny. It was one of my favorite parts of the book. So, pregnancy is such an interesting choice because it's one of the rare times when a woman's body visibly changes in a way she can't completely control. For someone like Brie, whose identity depends on controlling how she's perceived, is pregnancy almost the ultimate loss of control? Sara Cooper: again, just like perfectly put. Yes, absolutely. And I I also think like when you're when Nicole: Ha ha ha. Sara Cooper: you're pregnant and when you have small children even, like your body sort of becomes like public domain to other people. Like people will come and like touch your stomach or like in the hospital after you have the baby, like everybody's poking you, you're like naked and they're like, Well, you're just the vessel. It's it's very disconcerting and also like infuriating afterwards so you when you have a chance to think about it and process it. I think it's really gross that we treat women that way and and people who can have babies. I just think the whole thing is very disgusting Nicole: I feel the same exact way with everything you just said. I also think it's interesting to me how when women are pregnant, they're praised, you're so cute, your bump is so cute, or they even Sara Cooper: Yeah. Nicole: comment on how big your bump is, how big how Sara Cooper: Yeah. Nicole: small it is, it's so weird. And then Sara Cooper: So Nicole: when you have the baby, now it's well, get your body back. Why do you look like that? Why do you have stretch marks? Sara Cooper: Right. Nicole: Why it's so bizarre. Sara Cooper: It's insane. Like it's actually insane. Like it's like such a double think. Me too. Nicole: It makes me like infuriated. And that that's one of the reasons why I love so much these weird girl books. I just love Sara Cooper: Yeah. Nicole: feminine rage because it's always just about the patriarchy and really just Sara Cooper: Yeah, it is. Nicole: women pushing back against it. Sara Cooper: I I also am so glad that this genre exists. It's it it feels very important, especially right now, like as rights continue to be stripped away. Nicole: Absolutely. And it's so interesting how you go back in time and history always repeats itself. So and it's so interesting Sara Cooper: Yeah, for sure. Terrifying. Nicole: to read through literature, in my opinion. Sara Cooper: I I totally agree. Nicole: there's a contradiction in the expectations placed on pregnant women. You're supposed to nourish another human being, but you're also bombarded with messages about not gaining too much weight and getting your body back. Were you deliberately Sara Cooper: Mm-hmm. Nicole: exploring that impossible contradiction? Sara Cooper: Yeah, absolutely. that was something I was I was trying to process still myself when I wrote this. just because I rem I this is this is like personal information, but whatever. I wrote a book that's kind of insane, so I'm just gonna do it. like I I struggled with breastfeeding and I was given a lot of contradictory information about it. and then I gained a bunch of weight and then I couldn't lose the weight. And then they were like, But you should lose the weight because you're ha your blood press like it's just like there's no way to win any of it. Like there's just like constantly they they're you get told what to do and then you get told like that was the wrong thing to do and that was that's something that I put into Brie for sure. Like that that idea that you just really you cannot win this. Like there's this is the patriarchy, this is what there like there will always be a way to be criticized. Nicole: It's insane how much contradicting information there is just around pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, everything. Sara Cooper: And nobody tells you really what to expect like afterwards. There's like it's like it's going to be a joyous experience. It is it's it's I don't know, maybe it is for some people. No. Me neither. No. Nicole: It wasn't for me, that's for sure. It wasn't. I had to go on an antidepressant after my daughter was born because it was so hard. Same. Sara Cooper: Yeah, same. Yeah. I'm still in it.

It's like it like it it yeah, it ch it really changes your brain chemistry in ways that you do not expect. Nicole: It brought out so much prenatal rage because I had a baby. he was five months old, I got pregnant again. So it's like Sara Cooper: Mm-hmm. Nicole: you're postpartum, so you're dealing with all those hormones, and then you get pregnant Sara Cooper: Only good. Nicole: again, so it's kind of like your body was like, what the fuck's going on? Sara Cooper: That is so hard. Nicole: But shout out to Zolof. So there's something disturbing about the idea that Brie's body doesn't entirely belong to her anymore. Not just because she's pregnant, but because her audience feels entitled to it too. Who owns Brie's body at this point? Brie, baby, her followers, the brands paying her, or essentially nobody. Sara Cooper: Ooh, I love it. Or essentially everybody. I think that's gonna be my answer. Because yeah, you're Nicole: Yeah. Sara Cooper: totally right. Like there's she doesn't she's like lost control of her body. And think that's really scary. Like that and that is a thing that you feel I mean, as any person in the world right now, I think and especially like younger people who are really in social media, I think like you really lose this like you lose control of your image, You know, it it becomes very existential to me. Nicole: Yes, for sure. And I think it's also hard to have a type of self-worth if there's so much external validation coming in. Sara Cooper: Yeah, I think that's right, 'cause you get you do get those little dopamine hits Nicole: Even for me when I post like my little book talk carousels, they're not even about me. But I'm like, are people enjoying this? Do they like it? Like how many likes did it get in twenty four hours? Like and I'm not even Sara Cooper: Totally. Nicole: posting about myself. Sara Cooper: Yeah, I no, I I totally get that. I like I had to stop reading stuff that people were writing about like about this book. And I I I'd say I never used to read theater reviews either because you just like you start to feel kind of good in a way that I think isn't really helpful. Nicole: So I have to ask about the makeup eating because it Sara Cooper: Yeah. Nicole: is such a bizarre and memorable image. Where did that come from? And why did you want Brie literally consuming beauty products? Sara Cooper: it just sort of became an extension of the metaphor. I I hadn't planned it. I just it was another thing where I was writing and I was like, She's eating the she's eating the makeup now. I don't know. It just it felt like the the thing that she would like the next logical step for her, you know. Nicole: Yes. Sara Cooper: so like yeah, she like she needed it so much that it had to be like part of her. Nicole: That's so interesting and I also in my reading experience of it, I perceived it also as her being so heavily consumed with consumer products that she literally ate the makeup. You know. Sara Cooper: Wow. Interesting. Yeah,

that's cool. That's cool. Yeah, it's it's all sort of like a need for something that you have to like can't stop. Nicole: Yes. So I also loved the conversations between Brie and Baby because Sara Cooper: Thank you. Nicole: they're funny at first and then they become increasingly unhinged. When you were writing Baby's voice, did you think of Baby as a literal character, Brie's subconscious, or did you intentionally leave that ambiguous? Sara Cooper: I did intentionally live that ambiguously. I I feel like that should sort of up to the reader. Like I do have an opinion on it, but I'd sort of rather the reader come to their own. Nicole: Yeah. Sara Cooper: it was really fun and also terrifying to write baby because baby does start like quite innocent and become something quite not. Nicole: Do you think also it could be kind of like that motherly talk in her ear as well? Yeah. Sara Cooper: From her own mother. absolutely. I I think baby is I think baby is real. I think Nicole: Yeah. Sara Cooper: but I think that baby is also like a manif baby is both a manifestation of Bree's injured psyche and also a real force of sorts. So I think it like I don't not like paranormal like a demon or something, but I think it's sort of an in between place. Nicole: Those are the best type of books in my opinion when you form your own opinions instead of being like it's exactly this way. Those are the funnest books because it leaves you thinking. Sara Cooper: Yeah. I like those two. Nicole: one reader interpreted Baby specifically as Brie's consciousness trying to reason with her while Brie becomes increasingly incapable of listening. How close Sara Cooper: Interesting. Nicole: how close is that interpretation of what you intended? Sara Cooper: it is it is not what I intended, but I like that they came up with that. for me, baby becomes sort of increasingly poor choices rather than like I don't think that the baby is trying to help Brie. Do you know what I mean? Like I don't think the baby is leading Bree into good places. Nicole: Yes. Sara Cooper: but but I also really like that interpretation. Nicole: Yeah. I like how it's kinda like the little devil on the shoulder because baby also gets increasingly unhinged. They're like, Do it, do it. Yeah. Sara Cooper: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Baby gets like baby gets pretty rough. Nicole: Yeah. Baby really takes it there. There's also something very dark about Brie projecting a personality onto someone who hasn't even been born yet. Baby Sara Cooper: Yeah. Right. Nicole: becomes a confidant, an accomplice, and eventually almost another participant in the brand. is Brie already creating a parasocial relationship with her own child before the child even exists outside of her? Sara Cooper: That's a really cool of putting it. Yeah, I I like that. Yeah, I think like Yeah, these are lots of that's what that's great. yeah, no, thank you. Nicole: Thank you. Sara Cooper: she def yeah, she has not seen baby as a human being yet. I don't think that she's functioning in that way. I think that Bree is part of her isolation has to do with her not being able to see other people as real people. Like she she doesn't have any ability to empathize with people in any real way, I don't think. And I don't think she's seeing baby as like an actual baby so much as like a part of her that she can utilize and also hopefully be loved by. Nicole: Yes. She definitely wanted babies approval too throughout the book. Sara Cooper: for sure. she needs that validation. Nicole: Yes. There's a really clever cycle running through the novel. Brie consumes products, her followers consume Brie and brands consume both of them. Was that circular relationship something you consciously built into the novel? Sara Cooper: not worded as well as you just put it. which is Nicole: Yeah. Sara Cooper: excellent. but yeah, absolutely yeah. do see it as like a downward spiral of like consumerism, where you just like Nicole: Yes. Sara Cooper: y we all feed into it and it feeds back into us and we all it's like a little human centipede of of capitalism. Nicole: And you definitely see that throughout the book. So Sara Cooper: Mm-hmm. Thank you. Nicole: we tend to talk about influencers as the people manipulating audiences into buying things, but Ravenus also shows Brie being manipulated by the exact same system. Is Brie exploiting people or is she being exploited herself? Sara Cooper: I think both. I think that she is absolutely being exploited and I don't think she would have done this if she was not. but that being Nicole: Right. Sara Cooper: said, she is act she's actively harming other people in the process. So I think I think we're all kind of complicit in this. Like it it's it's almost impossible not to participate in the cycle. I think. Nicole: Especially if you're on social media. Sara Cooper: Absolutely. Which like very few people aren't, I think. Yeah. Nicole: Right, exactly. There was a study shown that brands paid social media influencers over a billion dollars in two thousand twenty five. So it's just getting bigger and bigger. And Sara Cooper: That's insane. That's so crazy. Imagine what that money could have been used for it. Like Nicole: It's insane. Sara Cooper: I wanna say it's sad, but like there's so much that's sad it's hard to even contextualize it. Nicole: And I saw that there's a study showed that there's over a million videos being uploaded to social media a day. Over a million. Insane. Sara Cooper: The scope of it is so crazy. Nicole: It's so crazy when you think about it. Sara Cooper: And it's like constantly upping itself, I think. Nicole: Yes, always. And they're doing different things to keep people on the platforms and make you even my own self. Like I'm thirty four years old and I have to check myself to be like, get off your phone, stop scrolling, what is this doing? Like shut up, read a book. Yeah. Yeah. Sara Cooper: Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's hard to get off. It's really and I

I am not a social media person like in my actual lifestyle. and I find it hard to get off too. Like you once you start, it's just that's what it's in it's like it's like serial, right? It's like how it's like made to sort of just keep you a little bit hooked so that you just have like one or two more. Nicole: Yeah. So the algorithm becomes almost like an invisible authority in Bree's life. She changes her behavior because of something she can't see and doesn't completely understand. Did you ever think of the algorithm almost as the monster of the novel? Sara Cooper: I didn't, but I love that. That's fabulous. It's so funny, like a few people Nicole: Thank you. Sara Cooper: have asked me like about like the monster, the antagonist, and I'm just kind of like, It's Brie I guess. she's like both, but I think the algorithm is like a very valid antagonist. It's like that's a r I love that. love that. Nicole: Have you read the short story I Have No Mouth and I Need to Scream? Sara Cooper: No, but should I? Okay. Nicole: It's essentially yeah, it's a really short story. I downloaded it because I saw it on some post saying this is like the most crazy book I've ever read. And I didn't know it was a short story. It's only like 20 pages long, but it's Sara Cooper: Well wow. Nicole: about this robot AI system that takes over the world and imprisons these like seven people underground, just in this labyrinth never-ending, and it tortures them non-stop. It's insane. Yeah. Sara Cooper: my God. Okay, I'll read that after this. Nicole: Yeah, so you could say that that's kind of like the algorithm as well. It's a really short story. It's older too, but it was so interesting. Yes. Sara Cooper: Yeah. It's fascinating. That's fascinating. so I'm about to start working on a new novel. it's AI critical, let's say. so I definitely want to especially read that now. That's that's very interesting. Nicole: Is that the new one that you already posted about? Sara Cooper: It's not. I like that one is called Blue Fire and that's actually about commercial musical theater and but like but it's really about like art under capitalism. it's sort and it's like a little bit surrealistic. It's like it gets weird because that's what I like to write. But yeah, Nicole: Yeah. Sara Cooper: no, this is a this is a new one that I haven't started yet. I'm hoping to start like this week, next week, whenever I have like a couple hours to myself. Nicole: Have you read the book All Is Well by Mona Awad? Sara Cooper: No, but I really need to. I I like I know it's like Yeah. Okay, I definitely will. I will. Nicole: You should. It's so good. She completely spirals and it feels like a fever dream, but she was also a playwright and really wanted to do the Shakespeare play, All's Well That Ends Well. But Sara Cooper: Okay, interesting. Nicole: but her students were like, no, we're not doing that one. And she kind of just goes into this spiral and it's it's such a good book. Especially if you're in that

musical theater realm, you would definitely like it. Sara Cooper: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I'll definitely check that out. Thank you. Nicole: Yeah, it's such a good one. So there's this promise embedded in consumer culture that the next product will somehow complete us. Better skin, better house, better body, better baby, better life. Do you Sara Cooper: Mm-hmm. Nicole: think Bree's new real tragedy is that she believes satisfaction is always one purchase or one viral moment away? Sara Cooper: I think that's beautifully put. Yeah, I think she's desperately reaching to be okay and she is not gonna be okay. She just like cannot get there. And she it's almost like she'll do anything to be okay. And I think that she believes that she can get there if she just like d buys the right product, uses the right thing, like makes her life the right way. and it's just not the way reality is in my opinion, unfortunately. I wish it was. Nicole: I think that was such a beautiful way to put it because she had such mommy issues and you can see, like you said, she's trying to be okay and that's why I rooted for her the whole time. Like yes, she was doing unhinged crazy things, but I just I loved her and I felt for her. Sara Cooper: good. Thank you. Yeah. Well thank you. So that means so much to me because like I was really scared that I really didn't want to be making fun of her. Do you know what I mean? Because I actually like I I think that she in a different world could have been like a happy and productive and good person, you know? Nicole: The phrase unhinged woman gets thrown around constantly in books right now, especially with female protagonists, but Sara Cooper: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nicole: Breeze Unraveling is funny and genuinely unsettling. How did Sara Cooper: Mm-hmm. Nicole: you balance letting us laugh at what she's doing without reducing her suffering to the punchline? Sara Cooper: thank you first of all for saying that I didn't do that. I appreciate that. yeah, I I just really like I think it's important to care about your characters. I don't like especially because my work both here in novels but also in my previous life as a playwright, is often satirical. I'm really it's really important to me to like feel what the characters are feeling, or at least as much as I'm able to. because I I don't wanna write about people that I'm just mocking, you know, like I I'm not interested in that. If there's somebody that I think is like not worthy of my time, I don't wanna write about them. But I I think there are very few people in the world that are not worthy of our time and compassion, you know. I like so it's really important to me to feel for the character and hopefully make the reader feel for the for the character too, even if they're doing terrible things. Nicole: Yes, absolutely. And you also come from a playwriting and musical theater background. and Ravenus has an incredibly rhythmic voice. There's repetition, slogans, and internet language. How much Sara

Cooper: Thank you. Nicole: did your background as a playwright influence the way Brie sounds on the page? Sara Cooper: I think very much I'm actually in my office right now. I teach playwriting and musical theater writing. And I I do think like my lyrics are very present in this book. Like I think that like it it does I felt because this was my first novel, it's the closest of the things that I've written so far in prose to my work as a playwright and lyricist. I think you the repetition, I think you're absolutely right. That's like spot on directly from theater. Yeah. Nicole: Yeah, I loved it. Sara Cooper: thank you. Nicole: You're welcome. And what's Sara Cooper: Yeah. Nicole: harder to write, a character who doesn't know she's unraveling or a character who knows and keeps going anyway? Sara Cooper: I don't know that I've ever tried to write a character who knows and keeps going. But that seems like a fun challenge. I think that would be harder because like then then you have to sort of like again if you're gonna have compassion for the person, like if they're purposely doing things that are not good, that might be hard for me personally to empathize with as opposed to like somebody who is doesn't understand that they're not doing the right thing. I find that very interesting and compelling. Nicole: Yeah, for sure. And Sara Cooper: Yeah. Nicole: one of the saddest things about Brie is that she has constructed an entire identity designed to make strangers obsessed with her, and yet she doesn't seem to like herself very much. Can Sara Cooper: Yeah. Nicole: someone build a life around being desirable to other people without even liking themselves? Sara Cooper: that's so tragic. yes, I do think they can. I think they shouldn't. I don't think it's very good for you, but I think it's actually quite easy to, right? 'Cause especially with social media, it's very easy to present like you could absolutely present your life as perfect. Like it doesn't with and you could be like completely a mess and suffering and there would be no way for anybody to know it if you were especially if you're isolated and not actually seeing many people in person. I think that would be quite easy to do. Nicole: I think you can easily count like narcissism as people cause they genuinely don't really like themselves, but they want to be liked so bad, especially in real life. Sara Cooper: Yeah. Right, Nicole: there is so much language around hunger in this book, yet Brie is constantly denying herself things. Is ravenous ultimately more about consumption or deprivation? Sara Cooper: Ooh, great question. I think they're both part of like the same, she is punishing herself because she doesn't like herself, but also she is really afraid. She definitely has d major disordered eating. and she is definitely she's afraid of gaining weight. she's a f because she thinks it'll make her unlovable, you know? And I think that like I think that both things are present for her. Like she's trying to consume and she's also trying to like Keep herself from consuming. Nicole: Absolutely. I definitely felt too because when you're pregnant and your body is changing so rapidly, I definitely struggled with that eating and overeating my first pregnancy too, because you're told don't gain this much weight, but also be healthy and exercise. Sara Cooper: I don't know about you, but I threw up the entire like literally the maybe not the very last like three weeks, but for the entire pregnancy. I just like couldn't keep anything down. Nicole: I'm sorry. Sara Cooper: like I No, I mean it's it's okay. I feel my I felt bad for my husband is like the most amazing feminist man on the in the universe. He's lovely. But like I one time was like in the car with him and I started to throw up but he like put his hand like without thinking, he like put his hand under Nicole: that's so sweet. Yeah. Sara Cooper: Yeah. Yeah. Nicole: Imagine if men had to go through pregnancy and deal with the Sara Cooper: Take them. Nicole: throwing up and the giving birth. It's just, it's not talked about. I told my husband after I gave birth, I was like, women are just walking around this earth giving birth and then acting like nothing happened and it's not okay. It's insane. Sara Cooper: I completely agree. It's a crazy thing. It's a cra I I applaud you for being able to do it twice. I don't know how people do it. I I couldn't I would not do it again. I wouldn't do it again either. Like, but I but Nicole: I won't do it again. Sara Cooper: there are people you're right, there are people walking around and having like, you know, many children and like surviving and it's amaz it's it's truly amazing. it's Nicole: So motherhood is traditionally framed as this ultimate act of selflessness, while Sara Cooper: Mm-hmm. Nicole: influencer culture rewards making yourself the center of everything. What do you think happens when those two identities collide? Sara Cooper: I think that it would be impossible to do both at once very well. Like I think you'd have to sort of choose one or the other because you're right, like they're they're completely contradictory. Like there's no way to be to if you're gonna present yourself, like we're talking about performative femininity, like performative motherhood is like the opposite of what like you you'd be showing your I mean, I guess people do it. I I don't really watch those that content very much. So I couldn't say I'm not like this is not judgment on anybody. I have not I just haven't seen it. but I can't imagine that that it's very possible to both be filming yourself and watching your child very effectively for long periods of time at the same time. It seems like it would have to be a performance of one or the other. Nicole: It's so true. I did a little bit of the social media content creation just around fitness before I did my book accounts. But I Sara Cooper: cool. Nicole: also did like busy mom workouts. So sometimes I would film Sara

Cooper: Mm. Nicole: my kids if we went to like a museum, but it was always like the backs of them. but it's so true when you're filming something, you're thinking of the angles and everything that you need to do to get the shot So it's so true. It's so performative. So how are you genuinely present if you're worried about filming? Sara Cooper: And again, I don't wanna put like judgment on it only because I like I don't know how they're doing it, but I I have trouble imagining it. Nicole: Yes. I will put a little judgment on the mom influencers who set up the phone and Sara Cooper: huh. Nicole: then they pretend to go back to sleep and then their alarm sounds and then they're waking up. So they film themselves waking up. I hate that. Sara Cooper: I didn't know that was a thing, that's unfortunate. Nicole: There's a huge influencer. She has like over eight million followers. She has like six kids. And she'll be like spend the night with us as a family of six with a newborn or something like that. And when the baby starts crying in the middle of the night, you hear the baby and she'll put her phone and film herself waking up to the baby's crying. That's weird. That is Sara Cooper: That is weird. Nicole: so weird to me. And she has millions of followers. It's so bizarre. weird. Sara Cooper: it's like it's like wrestling, you know, like in like the nineties when people like you know what I mean? Because like I kinda get the appeal. It's like it's theater, you know, I get it. Actually, like Nicole: Yeah, yes. Sara Cooper: I people would watch it and I sort of understand why people would want to make it. But yeah, I I don't think it's not believable. Nicole: the entire book revolves around an unboxing, but by the end, the concept has become almost grotesquely literal. What did you ultimately want unboxing to mean by the final pages? Sara Cooper: my brain when I first again heard of unboxing and sort of like something broken there. I like I my brain immediately went to like the worst possible thing that you could unbox, which is what happens in the book essentially. I just sort of knew that image when I first started writing it. Like before I even outlined it, I knew the I knew where it was headed and I knew it was headed there. Yeah. Yes. I didn't Nicole: So you knew the outcome of everything? Okay, that's so interesting. Sara Cooper: I didn't know like how I was gonna get there. I don't think I knew that baby like a character at that point. I just sort of had the end image in mind. Nicole: after everything that happens, do you think Brie finally understands anything differently in the final moments that she did at the beginning? Sara Cooper: It's up for interpretation, but I don't think so, no. I think I think Nicole: Yeah. Sara Cooper: that's the tragedy of it. I think that like she still I think again, I'm trying to like not give away but like I think that she is still in the same place that she was in. I think that Nicole: Yeah. Sara Cooper: she has

not escaped the cycle. Nicole: I think she got progressively worse. Sara Cooper: I think you're right. Nicole: So now we're gonna do the rapid fire. Sara Cooper: Okay. Nicole: If Bree somehow became a real influencer tomorrow, what brand would immediately try to sponsor her? Sara Cooper: Fleur. Nicole: Wait, what's flour is that the the birth control? Sara Cooper: no, that would be fun too. no, it's a body spray that like doesn't last at all but is very expensive. Maybe the perfume, Nicole: my god, that's so funny. Sara Cooper: but it lasts like five seconds and it doesn't smell good. Sorry flirt. Nicole: I I would think it would be the better help thing. Sara Cooper: that's it that is an excellent one. That's Nicole: That's what came to my mind. What's the most ridiculous influencer product or trend you've encountered while researching this book? Sara Cooper: god. mukbangs, which I included in the book because I had not heard of that. my jaw literally dropped when I when I heard about those. I like I think that is the craziest thing I've ever heard of. Like and and the most like capitalist consumerist kind of like outcome that the internet could find. Nicole: Those honestly disgust me. I hate them. Sara Cooper: I had to watch them just to see what they were like. but I like Nicole: Mm-hmm. Sara Cooper: I watched like the first minute of a bunch of them because I was like I c and then I would skip to like the middle just so I could have like a sense of it, but I couldn't get through it. Nicole: I saw just scrolling TikTok, this guy came on and he was saying how he had millions of followers on a mukbang channel. and he was saying how he had an eating disorder after it and that social media validation because he would get millions of views on these videos. So I went to see what his videos were because I don't watch them, they make me feel physically ill. And Sara Cooper: Right. Yeah. Nicole: it was so much food and the slurping of the noodles, and it was so grotesque. I was like, how is this millions and millions? Of of views and follows. But yeah, it was a really sad video too. Sara Cooper: that's that's actually like the thing for me about this book. I'm not trying to make fun of anything. I actually I genuinely think we have a real problem in our society and I think like like that's awful. That is hurting individuals. Like this is it's Nicole: That's sad. Sara Cooper: sad. It's really sad and it's it's like why why are we applauding that, you know? Like why are we Nicole: Absolutely. Sara Cooper: guy. That's really awful. Nicole: what is one interpretation of Ravenus you've heard from a reader that you didn't intend but absolutely loved? Sara Cooper: interesting. Okay. So, like somebody said Sara Cooper has no chill and I like I don't remember the rest of the sentence, but like I was like, Yeah, that's like you understand this book and you understand my brain. Nicole: I read it a few months ago as an arc and I still think about it all the time.

I love the social media parallels because it's so interesting to me. Yeah. You're welcome. And I think Sara Cooper: thank you. I really appreciate that. Nicole: Just influencing in general is relatively new. And the fact that people make so much money doing it and you can create these huge businesses just at home is such a wild phenomenon to me. Sara Cooper: Yeah. And I actually think like it has some it has ways to be positive. Like I think it's like it's it's great people get to hear really interesting perspectives for example, like I love your your content. You know what I mean? Like there's like lots of it's it's Nicole: Thank you. Sara Cooper: delightful to find stuff like to find smart people saying interesting things. I think like it gets sad when it's like a mukbang where it's like somebody's using their i is like being told that that just that hurting themselves is positive. Like that's where I think it gets kind of sad. Nicole: Absolutely. I love the book talk community. I find so many books that I wouldn't have read at all. Sara Cooper: Like the bookstagram community is amazing. Like there's so many good books out there that I'd never heard of. Like it's very exciting. Nicole: Yes. And finally, you're following Ravenous with your second novel. Sara Cooper: Yeah. Nicole: What can you tell us about it and should we expect something equally as deranged? Sara Cooper: Yes, I actually think it's more deranged, unfortunately. it's it's sort of it's sort of a different kind of deranged. It does have a similar kind of like frenetic energy to it, it's dystopian fiction. So it's sort of like it's in a world where if things continued the way that they're going now and got a little bit more fascist even and there's like a in the book there's there's just been sort of this revolution, and things have gone a little bit like I would say libertarian but maybe even like a little more puritanical very patriarchal and the the main character I don't want to say too much about what she does, and makes her complicit in something that she then has to contend with by the end. it's so it's a lot about parenting. It's a lot about how we deal with a a government that we've helped create, yeah, it's it's Nicole: I'm so excited. Sara Cooper: thank you. It's it's very bleak. and I think it's like in fact my editor was like I I'm I'm a little worried. By how bleak it is. But we decided Nicole: my god. Sara Cooper: to keep going with it. So hopefully it's not too too bleak. Thank you. Thank you. Nicole: That's so exciting. I can't wait to read it. And finally, can you give us four books that either inspired Ravenus or just four books that you absolutely love and think everyone should read? Sara Cooper: gosh, okay. I should have see this is where my brain just completely farts out Nicole: It's okay. Sara Cooper: into Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood. I'll throw in Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood just because like I must. let's see. I love 1984. I love a Clockwork Orange. Nicole: So good. Sara Cooper: so good. It's one of my favorites. Brave New World. I I said five. Okay, that's five. Nicole: have you seen the movie Clockwork Orange as well? Sara Cooper: I have. I have. wait, I just thought Nicole: It's dark. Sara Cooper: of another book. I just thought of another book. Okay, actually this was actually was really an inspiration. but I wanna say also like American Psycho. It's Nicole: my favourite. Sara Cooper: it's so good. It's so it's so good. I wish that Brady Snellis wouldn't say things that he says. the book is so, so, so good. It's a really good book. okay. All Nicole: him to come on my podcast but he hasn't responded. Sara Cooper: right, well good luck to you. I'd be curious. I would I would watch the hell out of that. I'd be curious. Nicole: That's my favorite movie. And then I read the book because I didn't know it was a book. It's so good. It's very, very dark, much more graphic. Yeah. Yes, I've Sara Cooper: the book is so much better than the movie too, isn't it? I think like it's so it's so mm-hmm. I really like his work a lot actually for Nicole: read a few of his others, and they're definitely very bleak, and he has that such a bleak writing style, which I do love. Yeah. Well, Sara Cooper: Yeah, I do too. I do too. Nicole: thank you so much for coming on. Yes. And Sara Cooper: Thank you for having me. It was so nice to like meet you. Nicole: it was so nice to chat. I'm I'm so happy that we got to do this. Sara Cooper: Me too, thanks for having me on. Nicole: Thank you so much.