TRANSKRİPT 🔗
Theo: Hi Kim, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It's it's lovely to have you on.
Kim Bensalem: Thank you so much, it's nice to be here.
Theo: Shall we start off with just a short introduction just so our listeners know who you are and how we got how we got chatting really?
Kim Bensalem: So I started my career back in 2012 in clinical research and I was actually a student placement for a company. I worked for Johnson & Johnson in their medical device industry and I kind of grew through the ranks within that company. I didn't know anything about clinical research. I actually wanted to be a clinical psychologist. studied psychology at university and somebody told me that a lot of psychology applications lack clinical research experience. So I thought, right, I'll take a year out and we're going to do some research and then fell in love with the industry. So I kind of took on different roles, started as like a student placement and then I took on a CTA role and then went straight into project management. kind of grew within the project management ranks within Johnson & Johnson and then I left to join a very small CIO and made that big jump from kind of big corporate structure to being the first employee of a CIO so very different, still project managing, still running clinical trials which is what I love to do and then that's kind of led me to where I am today so I now have a role as the director of clinical research for a company called MediLife. We offer clinical research services to medical device companies that are willing to come and sell their devices in the UK and we can provide the evidence basis to be able to sell them devices. And I'm soon to launch with my co-founder Anna a platform called Revolution CRP. So that's kind of a clinical research professional. that's really all about trying to make an impact in the clinical research industry in general.
Theo: so Revolution CRP, what sparked the creation of that? Where where did it begin? Where did you see the need and and what need does it kind of plug into?
Kim Bensalem: Revolution CIP is a platform based around community resource sharing, career growth and wellbeing. And the reason it came about was it was actually based on conversation and I was going through a really busy period in my job. And Anna had said to me, make sure you look after yourself. And I was reflected on that. conversation over the weekend and thinking, but when you're in the middle of this, you don't know how to do that. I've burnt out before and it took me quite a while to recover from that. At the same time, so I was kind of reflecting on that burnout recovery period and what that really required from me to try and get some insights into how I could avoid it again. And at the same time, I was doing some career coaching for people in the clinical research industry. And I just kept hearing the same things over and over again around kind of overwhelm and lack of career growth and lack of pay transparency. And everybody that I spoke to, I was basically having the same conversation. So it was just a period of reflection. And I was thinking about the challenges that I've been facing with staff turnover. And I do think we have a challenge in the industry in general with staff turnover. And so after discussing with Anna, which was just a conversation, we were kind of saying, you know, think it comes down to a few things. It comes down to the lack of support, especially in a remote environment. So whether that's community and peers or line management. people move on from roles because they feel overwhelmed, burned out. They want an opportunity to set new boundaries. and all their, you know, wanting career progression and their current setup doesn't allow for that. So, and truthfully, think part of it's pay transparency as well, people are more
Theo: Mm-hmm.
Kim Bensalem: paid, so they move. So that sparked the idea to create a platform that really provided resources and education to be able to empower people to overcome some of these challenges themselves, because I think know, self-responsibility is a really big piece of this, it's not all the environment that
Theo: Mm.
Kim Bensalem: you're into as well. So that's kind of where we started and it's evolved over the past year really.
Theo: That's that's really interesting. Now obviously when we speak about burnout, you know, we speak a lot about the CRA position in itself being very much, you know, burnout conducive. But would you say, you know, is clinical research as a whole and the industry in this moment in time that is in fact burnout conducive? So it you know, that that burnout and that overwhelm is not perhaps just limited to a single type of role, but you know, throughout the the life cycle I guess of the career.
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, I think so. And I think it's natural when you think about the position that we're putting in. So there's multiple different motivations for doing clinical research, whether that be for a regulatory approval, whether somebody wants to sell a product, whether it's to get innovation to patients. You're not always part of the discussion about what the motivation for the research is. But then you're putting this little pressure to be able to deliver that on time. If you're working for a CRO within budget, often with these staff turnover challenges and with every staff member that leaves, you lose a little bit of knowledge and then you have certain roles within it that can be, if you don't manage them well, you lose it to burnout. So like the lot of travel that's involved. The difficult conversations and the working with the people that happen when you've got multiple companies in priorities and multiple teams in the project. So I actually think it's a natural kind of outcome of the job that we do in clinical research and then also the culture that's built
Theo: Would you say there's more burnout and there's more pressure in a vendor or a CRO versus a sponsor?
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Or would you say, you know, it's pretty much the same sort of pressures on both sides, just slightly different?
Kim Bensalem: I think I see it from all angles. I've seen it in every place that I've worked and I've spoke to across different setups. I will say again, it comes down to that kind of motivation for doing the research themselves. When you're working for a sponsor, that's obviously to get the product to the patient as quickly as possible. When you're working for a CRO, a lot of the times that's monetary driven. And so that does bring a different level of pressure, I would say. That doesn't mean that one is better than the other or one leads to less burnout than the other,
Theo: Yeah, I agree. I think you know, it's quite often I speak to a lot of people coming from the CRO side of things wanting to go to the sponsor thinking, you know, it's going to be a little bit more relaxed, it's going to be a little bit better, there's less pressures. But actually, as you say, there's definitely pressures on both sides and there's pros and cons on both sides, right? especially depending on the size of company or depending on the mission of the company or the culture of the company and naturally your line manager as well and the environment and study that you're on, right? so obviously you've been working on revolution clp for about 10 months now so is it launched is it launching
Kim Bensalem: In the final stages of testing, so I can't put a date on it, but I think we're a few weeks away. We're about two weeks away from launch rather than months now.
Theo: Brilliant, that's that's really exciting. So walk us through, you know, the the platform. So what's what's free? Is there a paid version of it? What what's included?
Kim Bensalem: So we started with kind of four main areas of the platform. So we've got a community area that's really designed to be able to be that space, especially for newer people coming into the industry or people that are working in a remote environment, who ask the questions that they maybe don't feel comfortable asking other people and utilize other people's experience to be able to answer that. So that's all anonymized. So you don't have to be worried about. your manager, seeing that you've asked a stupid question, is,
Theo: Yeah.
Kim Bensalem: you know, all anonymized and that's where we'll have like webinars about certain topics. And then we have an area, it's split up into three pillars. There's an area for kind of research resources, which is really sharing tools and templates and how-to guides for things that we've been through within the industry. And then an area for wellbeing. and an area for career growth. So that's really taking all of our learnings or some of the topics that we've heard that people want to talk about and putting them kind of into an article form for people to read through in their own time. So we've got like 50 pieces of content that will be ready at launch and that's everything from like start-up trackers to how to do an ethics submission to also managing overwhelm, prioritizing. you know, nutrition, there's all sorts through to how to develop skills and how to manage people for the first time. There's all sorts of topics in there that we've put under them three kind of umbrellas. And then we also have an area that we've built that's really about tracking your room stress data. So again, coming back to that self responsibility of being able to pick up on your room trends. So. These are questions that you can complete on a weekly, daily, monthly basis however you want. And once you've put enough data in there, you will get some trend graphs that kind of show you how you're projecting on your own stress levels, which is an indicator to how you're performing relative to burnout. And then we also have an area that's around weighting your role. So again, with this kind of transparency piece of telling people what they've experienced within a particular company, within a particular role. It also includes like pay scales, so you can put in there what you got paid for that role. And
Theo: Uh-huh.
Kim Bensalem: really to be able to just provide transparency and give some power back to the people
Theo: Mm-hmm.
Kim Bensalem: rather than the employers. And then soon after launch, we've got a recruitment piece coming in and that was really based on feedback from people in the community. They were constantly asking if that could help them find jobs. So our intention
Theo: Mm-hmm.
Kim Bensalem: is that we will build out an area of that that will help people find it as well.
Theo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well there's an awful lot that's gone into this, right? I'm particularly interested in understanding, you know, and and seeing how how it works in practice, you know, when you kind of build your your career trajectory, I guess, and you look at, you know, where you are, where you want to be and kind of getting a little bit of support with understanding what else you need to do or what are the next steps and so on. That's that's super interesting. I bet you're going to have lots of interest in that side of things. I guess, you know, as a reprinter I speak to so many people who constantly ask me, you know. what's my next step or they have an idea of what the next step looks like but they don't actually know how to get there and so I think that will be extremely interesting.
Kim Bensalem: Good, good, I'm glad to hear that. You also asked me about what was paid versus free, so I think it's
Theo: Yes.
Kim Bensalem: a good answer to that question. you know, our mission really is to be able to revolutionise the culture and clinical research, so we always want to a free area of this. But we have to be honest, we also have put lot of time and effort into creating this, and the maintenance
Theo: Yeah.
Kim Bensalem: of it also requires quite a lot. So we are keeping it as low cost as possible. There's subscription models so that there's kind of like a paid monthly option. And
so there will be three areas. And then basically the way that we've made that decision is the things that require more maintenance. Then that's because part of the premium version of the platform. So you
Theo: Yeah.
Kim Bensalem: can always see, you know, what's included in your free area, what's included in the premium. You can upgrade for a month and then cancel. There's, you know, we tried to make it as flexible so that we reach as many people as possible. but still maintaining the fact that there's some cost involved with having something like this.
Theo: Of course. And it sounds like it's obviously, you know, you've been working on it for free for the last ten months, as well as your full time job and other responsibilities. And of course you you have to see some sort of financial pay payback or benefit when this does go live, there's a there's an awful lot of resource and and expertise that has gone into it. I'm really excited to see it live. so what's your your long term vision with it? You know, do you envisage it being more as a community or you know a resource library? well-being tool, a career development platform, all of it in in different parts or is it kind of you know let's launch it see what what does best
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, and I guess it's all of it really. But we also really want to take on board what people want from the platform.
Theo: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Kim Bensalem: So, you know, this is only a starting point. And when it comes to, you know, the paid version of this, it really is so that we can continue to invest in bringing people what they want, because our ultimate vision, and this might seem very big picture and very fact-fetched, it might take us 50 years to get there. But this is a place where everyone in clinical research will go to. So you know everyone from working in the big corporate companies to the small CROs or they're just starting out their career or they've been a director for 10 years and it becomes a place where everyone can find what they need. So whether that's that they're just starting out and they want to see a template, that they want to ask questions or that it's that they want to provide you know something to give back to the community and be the people that answer them questions. know burnout doesn't happen straight away, there's different stages of it, people can pick up the resources or the information that they need to try and avoid that happening and I really think that if everybody that played a piece in the puzzle of clinical research took responsibility for their piece of that then we could have a completely different culture within what we do because ultimately we've got an incredible talent pool of people that are passionate about helping people and doing it the right way and we're not looking after the people that are doing the research. So that's the aim, whether that takes us five years or fifty, that's where we want to get to.
Theo: Absolutely. And I guess from my experience speaking to to people, the most burnt out are the ones who care the most.
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, I think that's.
Theo: and I guess, you know, they quite often deprioritise their own well being over the well being of the study, the patients, the the company, the you know, the team, the project and so on. And I speak to so many people who say, you know, just this project, I'll finish this project and then, you know, and then and I guess, you know, that that in itself is probably you know, probably the biggest definition of of burnout, right? I'll just go a hundred ten percent in for the duration of this project and then I'll get another project and another project. I'll never prioritise my own needs.
Kim Bensalem: Exactly, exactly. think that's what we see. Because the industry is also so fast paced, so there isn't that time
Theo: Mm-hmm.
Kim Bensalem: when they can make it. And I think that comes back to the fact that people don't move. They move to be able to reset their boundaries. But if you don't know how to do that, then you're going to face the same issues everywhere you go.
Theo: Absolutely. And I think quite often when you're the new kid on the block, right, and you've just started at any opposition, you you're actually more more inclined to kind of go above and beyond to prove yourself, to earn your stripes, and then you go straight into, you know, creating those expectations and, you know, not perhaps putting enough boundaries in place at the very beginning, 'cause obviously you don't want to be that person who says no from the very first couple of weeks, right?
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, but I also think I have something quite controversial to say about that because
Theo: Mm-hmm.
Kim Bensalem: when I on my reflect on my career path, I don't think I would be where I am without putting in them hours and going above and beyond at the beginning.
Theo: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kim Bensalem: And as a hiring manager, there are certain roles where that's what you need. And
Theo: Mm.
Kim Bensalem: well, not necessarily need, but you know, that's attractive to you that you've got someone that's enthusiastic and wants to learn and wants to put in the time that it takes to do that. And so I think there's a balance between taking care of yourself whilst you also do that and everything put in seasons. And then also gaining the experience so that you're more able to put a boundary in place. Say no to things because it's not aligned with where your goals are. I think sometimes we're pendulum the other way and we say, well, you know, We all want to work nine to five and do our job and get paid well for that. But the reality is that a lot of the experience comes from them, those nations that come outside of you nine to five.
Theo: Absolutely. Yeah, I think that is actually An excellent point and perhaps sometimes what comes up often in conversation is a bit of a of a generational divide in, you know, how we view work ethic and you know how we all have different sort of understandings
of what work ethic is, of where the job ends, where and you begin as a you know, as an individual, but as you say there are times especially throughout your first couple of years of your career where those extra times are important and those extra hours are important. So you can absorb as much as you can and you can learn where where to go next and you can see where you're better at and what you're not as as great at, right? but I guess you know quite often obviously we have five generations in the workspace right now and there's there's definitely some miscommunication between generation when it comes to expectations of work and and boundaries.
Kim Bensalem: Yeah and I also think that you have to think about what you're trying to get from this. So I don't think it would be realistic to say that if you're going to come to work, do your job and then leave, whether that's in remote environment, in an office and you're not going to ask the questions and you're not going to interact with people and you're not going to learn more outside of your job, that you're going to fly through the career pathway really quickly. If you're at a season in your life where you're very happy to come in, do your job well, not necessarily be focused on career growth, then that's okay, but that's what you're going to get. don't think the expectations, in my opinion, and maybe this is the misrepresentation between the generations, I don't think the expectations are that you can flash-track through a career pathway just by doing your job well and not seeing anything beyond what you're doing. It's not necessarily about giving more hours or going above and beyond and burning yourself out but it's being able to generate that knowledge.
Theo: Have the curiosity and and want to learn outside of the nine to five piece, right?
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, yeah.
Theo: That's a that's a really interesting point, I think, you know, we could have a a whole whole episode just on that alone to be honest. but I think what
Kim Bensalem: And that's my personal opinion. Other people will probably disagree, but that's my experience and my opinion.
Theo: Everybody tends to have slightly different views on this, right? And as I say, in my experience, you know, different generations have different points of view on on how this works. I guess we'll see, you know, in ten, twenty years time, where where we are with obviously, you know, with the integration of AI as well and we are all supposed to be a lot more efficient, as well. I guess that was going to be also one of the questions I had for for Revolution CRP. Is there an AR element built into it?
Kim Bensalem: There isn't and it's something that we're in constant discussion about and I think the reason that it's not there right now is because we really wanted to utilize the research. Now I use AI in my role a lot more than Anna does for example I think we just really wanted to focus on the element, the human element of our personal experiences and things that we've seen in the industry without having AI-generated responses to things. Now that being said, when we look forward to the future, already within the 10 months of building this, we've looked at all of the templates that we've put together that help you do your research, for example, and we've gone if we would have had an AI tool, we probably wouldn't have spent as much time on that. Maybe the
Theo: Mm-hmm.
Kim Bensalem: plan for the future is to have an AI tool that can do that. We've generated them ourselves, right? So we're not sure yet, but currently there's no AI.
Theo: Okay. and obviously you both have full time jobs as well. So how have you kind of split responsibilities as as co founders while still working full time and, you know, being normal people outside of nine to five?
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, and I think again it comes back to the seasons I was talking about. We've been in this season of building, so my social life has been the things that's taken a back step whilst we go through this period. But I think it's really putting into practice everything that we try to educate people on. So boundaries has been a big thing for me. Perfectionism, trying to let go of some of the perfectionism tendencies that the two of us have and the overthinking tendencies that the two of us have.
Theo: How's that going for you? Any advice?
Kim Bensalem: There's an article in the platform about this
Theo: great.
Kim Bensalem: video. But yeah, I think it's been really interesting to go through this journey because we are doing it outside of our nine to five jobs and we don't have nine to five jobs either. So it's been communication really. We're so fortunate to have such a good relationship. but kind of communicating on where we're at if there's something that we haven't got to. And ultimately, we're both project managers by nature. So I think having that skill set has been really useful to get us to where we have got to so quickly. But it's been a really interesting journey to see how some of these things that we are educating people about have been brought up for ourselves in this new dynamic
Theo: no.
Kim Bensalem: and this new endeavor that none of us have ever done this, we've never done anything like this before. So that has been. really interesting to see and the amount of times that we tell each other to go back to our own writing has been really interesting.
Theo: Take your own advice.
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so no one's perfect, right? We can say all of this, we can say this is what we've seen, this is how we experience these things, but ultimately I think consistency in reminding yourself is part of the puzzle as well.
Theo: Absolutely. Yeah. so now talking about your your career, so obviously, you know, you've you've had a a pretty pretty interesting career up to, you know, your current position as a director of clinical research. can you think of a decision or a step that you've taken that was perhaps, you know, a little bit
risky but really paid off? Apart from, you know,
Kim Bensalem: think it was probably...
Theo: building something alongside your your full time job.
Kim Bensalem: Hopefully that pays off. But I think the biggest risk that I probably took in my career was going from a big corporate company where I established myself to being the first employee in the small Seattle. That was a huge change. And the motivation behind it really was because I felt like I had a position at Johnson & Johnson, which was amazing. And I loved and I had incredible people around me. so many people came to that team and that was like their end goal. That's what they were trying to get to. And I was, you know, still in my twenties at the time. I worked very hard to get to that role.
Theo: Mm-hmm.
Kim Bensalem: But, you know, was luck that I started there and progressed my whole career there. So to go into a completely different environment that I guess was considered less stable, know, working for small
Theo: Yeah.
Kim Bensalem: companies with quite a big financial risk, a loss of benefits and things that you don't really think about until later on down your career path. That was a huge risk for me, but I think the reason I would say that it came off is because I learned so much about the industry and I learned so much about myself. I think I became the person that I am now because of that move.
Theo: Yeah. I guess, you know, when we look at stability in the current environment, is is there stability anymore in this current job market? Probably not. I think, you know, if you're going to move, whether you go for a large sponsor, a large CRO, large MedTech, or a small start up, your risks are probably fairly similar in this current climate, would you say?
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, I would say so. think the difference is you're more aware of the risks when you're at a smaller company. You're more aware of what's going on behind the scenes. So the pressure can come down to you more transparently than what it can in the bigger companies where if your job's at risk, you'll find out. So it depends
Theo: Yeah.
Kim Bensalem: how you look at it. If you want to live in a world and work in a world where you're not aware of that and something happens, then that's a bigger company. But if you're working, you know, if you're okay with knowing the financial situation of a company or the meaning of a particular project on your job stability, that can be motivating or that can be a really difficult thing to work
Theo: Yeah, and and I guess, you know, quite often I speak to a lot of candidates who think, you know, progression means waiting for that step up or waiting for that next job title or waiting for that promotion. and I guess you know there's there's so many other levers that people can can pull, right? Whether that's moving to a small CRO, whether that's taking a chance on a startup or changing therapy area specialisation, right?
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, I agree. think we often think about the career
path as linear and definitely get to a point where it really is about experience to be able to get to the next level and you're not able to often get that within the same role. So there are sideways steps and backwards steps. So I would agree, different areas, different companies, different teams, even if you're moving within the same teams, you know, can bring huge experience to see how other people are.
Theo: Yeah. so I guess you know, when it comes to it's community and of course one of the the revolution CLP gaps you're trying to kind of close is creating that sense of community within the clinical research space. Would you say, you know, peer support or the community had has played a part in your own career development or, you know, professional journey?
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, for sure. So if I think back to when I started my career, I was physically in an office and so I was listening to conversations that were happening. I would turn to the person next to me and ask a question. And I think that really helps me build my own experience because I might not have faced a particular challenge on a project, but I knew something that I had and I had followed that path and I knew how it was dealt with. I followed up with them said, what happened in that meeting? Or what happened with that situation? And so I think that really helped me develop my skill set much quicker than if I was working in isolation. But then I also think that our community in clinical research is so small and it doesn't feel like it's something that only after years of being in the community, realize how small it is. you know, the people that were maybe project managers with me in my old role might now be the director of the MedTech and support me for CRO support or the old directors might now want to do some freelance project management work and come and work for me or might be looking for a new role at some point. And so you see somebody in your network, they know of somebody who's got something else. So I think the career progression, having the relationships with people in the industry is really important, but also to gain experience really quickly. If you think of it, your experience can be multiplied by utilizing what other people are going through versus the specific project that you're working on. So that's how we can see it.
Theo: Yeah. Would you say, you know, the obviously the rise of homeworking and you know there's less and less opportunities to kinda, you know, learn through osmosis from your peers and your colleagues in an office space, do you think that obviously has a knock on effect on on people's career comforts or, you know, opportunity to be visible as well?
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, I think that's my fear, if I'm honest Theo, for the new people coming through. And it's part of the reason that we've built this community, an element of revolution, because I do think there's an impact. Now I'm a big, I work remotely full time, and I'm a big advocate
Theo: Okay.
Kim Bensalem: of remote work and the work-life balance that you can get because of that. So I think, again, there's different seeds in your career, right? But I do see
Theo: Yeah.
Kim Bensalem: it, my fear is that there will be an impact and The progression pathway for people that have started their career remote versus in an office may look very differently in 10 years
Theo: Yeah.
Kim Bensalem: time. Because my concern is that they're not going to be able to utilize that experience that people who started them did. I don't know what the answer to that is, but that's my concern.
Theo: Yeah, and I think it's it's probably you know a bit of a collective fear. Again, it's one of those conversations I have fairly often and I'd say, you know, similar to you, I learned through osmosis. I learn so much from listening to people, from hearing other conversations, from seeing people's reactions, which obviously you don't have access to by being on your own, you know, in a home office. so yeah, I don't think anybody knows the answer to that right now. Hopefully, we'll have one soon.
Kim Bensalem: I do think team environment and consciously the leaders of our industry thinking about how to create that team environment in a remote setting is really important because it can happen. And I've worked in roles where we do have an incredible team environment and fresher faces in the industry are able to learn, but then communication channels have to be open and honest and
Theo: Mm.
Kim Bensalem: transparent. I think it takes more effort to as a line manager, build a relationship with somebody that's on the other side of the country. And so it's being conscious of that to be able to one, make sure the projects are running as well as they can and the work's getting done as well as they can without being a micromanager. And also with helping the people that might need it and don't feel comfortable. We've got to, I think there needs to be a conscious effort and making people feel comfortable to be able to reach out in a different way that we would have done when we were in an office.
Theo: Yeah. There's a lot there's a lot to think of there, right? And to kind of balance it's it's it's a great balancing act. so obviously, you know, your your day job at Medilife is is, you know, within the the med tech space, and Revolution CRP is about people and culture across the whole industry. How do those two parts of you kind of feed into each other?
Kim Bensalem: really think it all comes back to relationships. So, you know, the work that I do at MediLife is still very hands on within the project. And obviously there's business development aspect of things as well. And the way that I operate and then by default MediLife operates is really relationship focused. So whether that's relationships with our sponsors, whether it's relationships with sites, whether it's team dynamics, I really focus on maximizing our relationships. And I think that comes through in revolution. And I
Theo:
Mm.
Kim Bensalem: guess going back to what I was saying earlier about how small the industry is, I think, you
Theo: Mm-hmm.
Kim Bensalem: know, for my personal endeavors, which I currently mediate life and revolution as the IP, they do kind of feed into each other or I can see a pathway that they will feed into each other in the future. But ultimately it's all about building and relationships, I clinical research
Theo: Mm.
Kim Bensalem: is still on that.
Theo: Yeah. I think that's that's why we started talking. We've got
Kim Bensalem: you
Theo: very, very similar views I guess on on the way we do business and and build relationships. so how do you how do you manage, you know, your your full time role and and revolution CRP? Do you have boundaries in place? Do you have, you know, set times when you work on, you know, the the revolution project?
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, and it changes depending on what season you're in in each of the companies. So I think I got to a point where boundaries became really important to be able to look after my own physical health and manage the day-to-day work and the start-up of this. And so at one point I had very clear cut-off times for things and that was how I managed. And then there's other periods throughout this past year where things have been more fluid and I really believe in kind of work life integration versus balance, like for me personally,
Theo: Mm-hmm.
Kim Bensalem: if I've got to take the dog to the vet or, you know, I want to go and have a massage and take care of myself in the middle of the day, I'll go for a swim. I now do that because I'm in a role that allows me to do that. And then the rest of the work will get picked up based on priorities. So yeah, it's been a balance and at different seasons it's looked differently, whether that's The boundaries are more of an integration of it all really.
Theo: No more blurred boundaries.
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, yeah, because there's different demands on different things at different times. So I think to kind of say, I'm finishing on my day job, I'm going on to revolution at 5pm, just probably isn't realistic at certain points.
Theo: Yeah.
Kim Bensalem: Yeah.
Theo: So you've got to you've gotta allow for that for that blurring of the lines, right, in a in a realistic fashion I guess, while still protecting your own time and sanity.
Kim Bensalem: Yeah, and I would say we also, you me and Anna work together as a team. And so when there's periods that are busy for one in the day job, the other person picks that up and vice versa. So I think I've got really good set up there with Anna as well.
Theo: It definitely sounds like it. So, I guess, you know, just for our listeners, where where can they follow you and where can they follow, you know, the Revolution CRP journey? what you know, what's what's coming up?
Kim Bensalem: Sure, so would say LinkedIn. We probably need to be a bit more open on my personal LinkedIn about what's going on. So that's something I will work on. But yeah, LinkedIn is where Revision has got a place set up. You can join our waitlist, which is actually closing in about 10 days time. And that will give kind of early bird pricing options because we are only a few weeks away from launching. And that's probably where you'll find the most up-to-date information. And then obviously the platform's free. So you can join the platform and that's going to give you the most up-to-date information, I guess, with it being a free platform to start off with.
Theo: Wonderful. So revolutionclp com
Kim Bensalem: Yes, sorry, that is correct.
Theo: Great. Thank you so so much, Kim. It's been a it's been a real delight speaking with you today. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
Kim Bensalem: Thank you for having me, it's been delightful.