WHO candidate Gevorg Tamamyan: ‘Geography must not decide who lives’ bölümünün tam dökümü

--> 00:06:21.279 Or, I mean, this is I think a fantastic uh way of at least for me, of living the life. 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:23.680 Well, let's move on to your ambitions then. 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:28.879 You want to become director general of the World Health Organization. 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:33.040 Many of the candidates are WHO insiders. 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:40.240 You are not, and you're nominated not by Armenia but by Botswana. 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:44.000 How has this happened and why do you want to lead the WHO? 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:48.480 Let me start from the main question of why I want to lead WHO. 00:06:48.720 --> 00:07:04.800 Throughout my career, I had the chance to study and work in different parts of the world, and I have witnessed that kids are dying not because of there is no science, mostly, but because there is no access. 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:06.240 So the kids are dying. 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:17.839 And I mean, kids, I give an example of kids, but in general, people are dying not because of the lack of knowledge or science, but because of lack of equity, lack of access. 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:22.000 And this is, I think, the worst thing right now, even. 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:35.360 And I mean, we can give many, many examples, just like take an example in pediatric oncology, let's say London or in Vienna or in New York, the survival rate is 85%. 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:42.800 The opposite in in Africa, it's around, let's say, 20, 30, in some places five, zero. 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:45.279 So it's like in some places more. 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:49.839 But so I mean, this inequality, inequity is horrible. 00:07:50.079 --> 00:08:13.199 And the most important thing I have seen, and later on through my career, I have seen how we can make change there, which we did in Armenia, which uh later on I had the chance through leading several international organizations to transfer also the capacity or the knowledge or experience to some other countries. 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:22.399 And most importantly, I have seen that the way it's done, first of all, the time how we treat the time. 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:26.319 We are very luxury with the time. 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:34.080 How long it takes to get these meetings, how long it takes to get these recommendations, how long it takes to implement all this. 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:37.600 It's years and it's horrible. 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:43.360 The way I see that we can change it, that was the way I pursue. 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:52.240 I said, certainly I can make this change if I become the director general of World Health Organization on a global scale. 00:08:52.559 --> 00:09:13.120 That again in 2032, we do not talk about that survival, let's say, again, in low-middle-income countries, or is 20%, 30%, and then plan another 10 years for the, or let's say the inequal uh inequalities in the vaccines, or I mean these kinds of things. 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:17.759 Let me jump in there because I want to unpick that a bit. 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:34.639 Um, you moved from your own specialization to a general point about WHO reform, which is very big on the agenda during this campaign to be the next WHO director general. 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:37.120 You say that everything's too slow. 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:42.320 How are you gonna get 194 member states to move more quickly? 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:45.360 You see how long it's taken with the pandemic treaty. 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:46.320 Okay, sure. 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:48.320 I understand this uh reality. 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:56.960 And I understand that WHO cannot do everything, but at least those things which depend on WHO, they can do it fast. 00:09:57.519 --> 00:09:58.960 They can do it fast. 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:10.960 I mean, like how how it happens that for two years and I have, or like a year, like some important positions, they are staying vacant. 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:12.320 How it happens? 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:16.320 Why you don't have people you can hire for that important positions? 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:19.759 You mean in the world there are no people to hire for that position? 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:23.440 That's why those programs are later on are going down. 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:32.240 Let's say a department or a division or some important positions, they don't have their owners for so long time. 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:35.519 Job losses, they're making cuts at the WHO. 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:36.000 That's maybe one. 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:40.000 Yeah, and they are cutting the and they are cutting all the young generation. 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:44.480 The member states said cut all the young and make it a retirement place. 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:47.039 Of course, Geneva life is beautiful. 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:51.679 Yeah, I mean it's a beautiful city, but we are world health organization. 00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:52.559 Come on. 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:59.360 It's like we need to be, and there are, like, I don't want anyhow to undermine the world on the ground. 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:00.879 Nothing like that. 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:08.000 Just like I think some of the things need to be uh more need dramatic change. 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:22.240 I was talking with one of the former ministers, and she told me she has a very long uh run with the WHO, and she said, you know, what we see from our end, we see like an octopus kind of structure. 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:27.679 There is a big head in Geneva, and there are tails to the countries. 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:30.720 No, we it should not be like that. 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:40.559 The strongest foundation of WJO should be in the countries, then in the regions, we should have very strong regions, and then the headquarters. 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:48.159 I think that there are some critical things which and we must have total transparency in the things what happened. 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:50.639 We

are losing a lot of great talent. 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:52.879 Is anyone asking why? 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:55.600 Why there are no investigations on this? 00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:04.000 Let's look at key challenges that will face whoever becomes the new director general of the WHO. 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:10.480 I'd like to hear from you which ones you are especially concerned about. 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:15.600 We have climate change and its effect on health. 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:21.759 We have preparing for a pandemic, the pandemic treaty, which is not going very fast. 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:24.799 We have resistance to antibiotics. 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:35.440 We have what looks certainly from a journalist's point of view, a growing lack of respect for health workers and hospitals in war zones. 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:42.799 Which of these, when you when you look at them, do you think I have to do something about that? 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:44.240 Why only those? 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:47.759 I mean, those are critically important things, but why only those? 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:54.879 We can talk about all of those like really for a long time, and we can dedicate as much time as needed. 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:57.120 But why we are only talking about this? 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:03.200 Because um, these are the things which are like uh which everyone was talking. 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:06.399 You know, I was reading about the DRC problem. 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.759 We have 4,000, more than 4,000 deaths this year, right? 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:13.120 From Ebola. 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:15.679 All the world is talking about this, and it's good. 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:17.840 We are talking, okay, we need to take the challenge. 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:20.960 And first of all, why don't we have a vaccine up to now? 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:26.559 Why are we waiting until the pandemic comes to act? 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:27.279 This is what. 00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:31.200 But the second thing, like, what is the problem? 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:37.039 Is it just the Ebola problem or is it the huge inequality? 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:42.879 Why these kind of things are happening in the countries which are the most vulnerable? 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:47.759 Why we are in the 21st century still have having this kind of inequality? 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:52.159 And I'll give you an exact example, and I'm sure everyone will agree on this. 00:13:52.480 --> 00:14:03.440 We are talking about 4,000 days from Ebola in DLC, but close to that, or more than that, because we don't have a registry there, that's why I'm not giving you an exact number. 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:10.960 Are dying every single year kids with cancer, which majority of them could be cured. 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:12.399 Every single year. 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:22.799 We are not going online and saying, okay, you know, the same number we lost to Ebola this year, the same number we lost kids

with cancer who could be cured. 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:25.279 Why we're not talking about this? 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:28.639 And why it takes so long to build this? 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:31.519 We just need to work on how to improve this. 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:33.039 Every single day. 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.440 We need don't need consultancy to come and say, okay, we need vincristen here. 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.120 We know already the doctors know there that there is no vinegar. 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:45.200 For example, I'm just giving the name of the drug as an example. 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:47.759 We don't need this, and I have seen this. 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.879 That's why we had that kind of big improvements. 00:14:50.960 --> 00:15:04.000 And I have seen in some countries where in the country, like the country has let's say 20% of survival, but advisors tell, okay, you need to build another building and put all your money in the stones. 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:05.360 That's horrible. 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:10.480 We need to expose these kind of things because we can make the real change on the ground. 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:13.200 And WEO is critical here. 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:14.480 Critical. 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:21.679 Of course, I don't say that I mean countries don't have countries, certainly they own their health care. 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:24.879 But the advice is should come from WEGO. 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:32.480 And there is no single country in the world I can 100% tell you, if you go and say, okay, we are going to help you to improve this, and they say, Oh no, go away. 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:36.240 You are talking that the pandemic agreement is taking so long. 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:37.759 But why it's like that? 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:39.759 Because there is a trust issue as well. 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:43.519 There are many issues, but there is also a trust issue, right? 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:57.759 I was interviewing and it's a public interview, the first lady of Sierra Leone on my podcast, and she said the vaccines arrived to us, vaccines arrived to us with three with three months expiration rate. 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:10.399 In 2021, 2021, out of 8 billion vaccine doses, and I think this is WHO numbers, only 3% went to Africa. 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:20.000 While the other countries already were doing a booster dose, many countries did not have vaccine to vaccinate their healthcare stuff. 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:22.320 This is, I mean, this is horrible. 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:24.080 And are we talking about this? 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:26.720 WH has all this data. 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:32.399 The they have big the this biggest uh data center on health inequalities, right? 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:34.240 But why we're not stressing this? 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:45.039 So talking to you, I'm beginning to understand that the absolute overriding theme of your campaign to be director general is really healthy quality. 00:16:45.440 --> 00:17:01.840 And that if you take your approach, many of these challenges you've referred to, whether it be Ebola, pandemic like COVID, child cancer, if you approach this, your campaign slogan is geography must not decide who lives. 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:08.160 So this is going to be your key focus if you become DG. 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:09.279 100%. 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:10.400 100%. 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:14.480 Because I have seen it and I've lived in it. 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:18.240 I'm coming from a small country, low middle income country. 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:22.799 And I have lived and worked and studied all over the world, really. 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:24.720 And I have seen this. 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:30.559 And most importantly, it's not about the problem, it's not that the inequality exists. 00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:34.000 It has always been there and it will be there. 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:38.480 But the problem is that we can address it. 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:46.160 At least in healthcare, we can address it, and we can make the change in reality and very quickly. 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:47.519 That's the problem. 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:56.000 I mean, I I am not naive and that think that there will be a world where there will be no rich and poor divide. 00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:01.440 No, it's gonna be like I wish the world would be more equal. 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:08.480 But at least in the healthcare, and that is our mission, the WHO mission, and as a physician, that is our mission. 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:11.200 That we make it a better way. 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:17.920 What you're saying actually brings me on to my next question because everybody's talking about reform of the WHO. 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:37.039 You clearly want your reform, but if you want to address health inequity, if you want to make sure that a child with cancer in a one of the least developed countries has as good a chance as a child in New York or Geneva, how are you going to do it? 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:39.680 What are the key reforms that you would bring in? 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:44.880 Number one, retain the top talent and to bring the top talent as well. 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:52.400 And I'm going to give them freedom to create, to make a world better place, to hold them accountable. 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:53.599 This is number one. 00:18:53.920 --> 00:19:01.839 Number two, I'm going to treat the time as precious or even more precious than the money. 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:06.000 Because time is more precious than money, including the start time. 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:11.359 And the third one, and I have no doubt that everyone will agree this. 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:16.240 We must communicate whatever we are doing, the impact, better. 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:18.559 That the world sees what we are doing. 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:20.559 And I will add the fourth one. 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:34.319 We are going to measure the

outcomes for the people, for the patients, for the families, not how many pages we produced, not how many meetings we held, not how many hours we took the flights. 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:34.720 No. 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:41.519 On the ground, I want to know we did this, this was the survival, where it is now. 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:44.000 If it's not changing, then we are failed. 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:47.119 Then we are like, we don't do our work. 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:54.400 You have a challenge in that the WHO has lost a significant part of its funding. 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:58.880 The United States, really the biggest donor for many years, has left. 00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:00.720 Other countries are cutting. 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:02.319 How are you going to tackle that? 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:06.079 Would you try to bring the United States back in? 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:21.839 First of all, and I made this public by 2032, in my opinion, every candidate, in my opinion, should have like their kind of goals, what they are going to do by 2032 and hold themselves accountable for that. 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:22.960 This is number one. 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:28.319 And I mentioned that one of my critical goals will be to bring back US and Argentina. 00:20:28.480 --> 00:20:39.119 And this is not just a slogan, because I believe that one of the strongest powers in the world, out of being of WHO, it's gonna make WHO much weaker. 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:42.160 And by the time it's gonna grow this weakness. 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:44.079 So we must address this. 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:46.319 And I started my campaign also in the US. 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:50.079 I said, my goal will be to bring US and Argentina back. 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:52.559 And within 100 days, I'm going to go to the US. 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:54.640 Of course, before that as well, I will go. 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:58.640 But this will be my critical role that we must bring WHO back. 00:20:58.720 --> 00:20:59.279 This is one. 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:06.640 The second one, the the Cancer Center I was trained, the budget is three times more, two or three times more than WHO budget. 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:12.960 So it's like it's not a money issue, it's the issue of how people perceive what we are doing. 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:14.319 Do they see the impact? 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.400 Are we able to communicate the impact? 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:21.119 In five years, WHO Foundation raised$215 million. 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:22.640 Five years. 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:27.039 And I think it was close to 84 major donors mostly. 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:28.480 Senjut only. 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:33.279 Every year, ALSA collects around$2.5 billion for Senjut. 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:34.720 It's not a money issue. 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:35.839 And I've done this. 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:42.000 I mean, when I was back to Armenia, everyone was telling, oh, you will not be able to raise the money

to no. 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:49.680 We says established the CDF Smile Foundation, which already I think a decade, it's covering everything. 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:55.920 Everything from diagnosis to up to the to treatment up to the age of 25, everything it's covering. 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:59.759 So I mean, I have I know how to uh bring the money in. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.160 And how to show the impact, but most importantly, how to make the change. 00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:06.160 Because people see the impact. 00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:10.000 That's the what are you changing on the ground for the people? 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:12.000 That's the most important thing. 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:24.079 Well, when we talk about the people, one of the things, and it's particularly since the pandemic, is you've got myths and disinformation about the World Health Organization. 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:28.720 You've got people not trusting things the WHO does. 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.680 It's particularly around vaccination. 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:35.279 How would you how would you deal with that? 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:40.640 Because it's it's hard to get people on board and even to get funding if they don't trust. 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:47.759 I totally agree with you that there is a trust issue, but there are two realities. 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:49.599 There are two realities. 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:53.279 I was on the streets of Cairo a few days ago. 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:56.319 So I was asking the ordinary people. 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.920 I was showing the WHO logo, and then what do you know? 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:04.720 One person said, I know that there is an organization which cares for us. 00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:06.559 So this was beautiful. 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:08.319 It was a beautiful answer. 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:14.160 But of course, in general, when everyone is talking about the trust issue, it means there is an issue, right? 00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:18.880 And we see also with all this misinformation what's going on. 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:27.039 And it's not that we are going to tackle it in a day, but there are some critical things what needs to be addressed and we can do it better. 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:30.319 First of all, I think we should become better listeners. 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:34.640 We must listen to people while this misinformation exists. 00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:41.200 And not only uh among the general public, but also among the healthcare professionals, this exists. 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:49.200 We need to find the better ways on how we can work with people, maybe through the community leaders. 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:50.160 Right? 00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:56.480 Well, again, I'll uh bring the example of when I was doing the interview with uh first the lady of Sierra Leone. 00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:07.680 She said when they made this huge progress uh against post-child marriage, it was a huge issue, and they made it also through the UN as an international day. 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:15.599 And she said, I started working with the community leaders, with the men, with the uh religious leaders. 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:25.920 There are so many ways we need to, we need to work with the uh digital companies around the world, with the media, with everyone, we need to work to better communicate. 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:31.440 And but first to listen, what people need to know, what people want to know. 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:38.559 The second one, I think, is being honest about uh gaps in our knowledge and about failures. 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:40.000 This is very, very important. 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:57.359 And I'm saying this as also as a pediatric oncologist who spent most of his career telling to patients both good outcomes, but also having the worst, most difficult discussions one could have with the family and telling a family that their child is going to die. 00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:00.319 So this is very, very difficult. 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:06.480 But also being honest when you don't know or you when you are making a mistake, then people trust you. 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:12.400 Finally, and most importantly, people need to see in their lives what's changing. 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:20.960 If they see it, if they see that again that the uh vaccine expiration rate is three months, they will not trust anyone. 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:30.240 If they see that the the kids are dying because just merely because they are were born in a place where there is no access, they won't trust. 00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:34.079 But they if they see this, the change is happening. 00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:36.720 They would we will rebuild this trust. 00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:39.440 Okay, I have two very short questions for you. 00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:48.240 These are one I ask everyone because all of the candidates are very, very busy, very busy health professionals and now campaigning. 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:50.880 What do you do when you have a chance to relax? 00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:52.640 What do you do when you're not working? 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:57.839 My wife tells me that I never stop working, and she complains about it. 00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:02.559 And even when we are with family, she says, just stop thinking. 00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:04.480 I don't know, but maybe. 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:07.279 And this has been an issue always. 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:10.319 But uh, I try to spend time with family. 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:14.480 And then the very last one, this is your just quick campaign slogan. 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:18.079 Why does the world still need the World Health Organization? 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:21.119 And why are you the best person to lead it? 00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:32.480 There are failures, of course, there are mistakes, of course, but I'm convinced that the world is much better with World Health Organization than without it. 00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:39.039 And whatever we can criticize, but certainly it does amazing work as well. 00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:42.960 But just we need to build already on what has been done. 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:49.599 And as everywhere, we are really standing on the shoulders of giants, and we just need to amplify the work. 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:53.680 And the the things I'm telling it's not just to criticize anyone's work. 00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:55.119 I really appreciate the work. 00:26:55.279 --> 00:27:03.359 All the leaders have been doing this throughout these decades, but I'm sure we can build taking it as a foundation and build on this. 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:24.559 Why I am the best one, you know, I'm a little bit humble person, in my opinion, and I don't like to do ask for this kind of questions, but I think I would not say the best one, but I think I I can make a real change, I can restore the trust, I can bring people together, I can bring positivity. 00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:27.759 That's what I have been doing, and that's my strengths, I think. 00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.400 That's what I can bring to WHO. 00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:34.559 Dr. 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:41.599 Georg Tamamian on his candidacy to become Director General of the World Health Organization. 00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:49.519 And that brings us to the end of this episode of our special series on the campaign to lead the WHO. 00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:57.119 The series is a co-production from the Global Health Centre of Geneva's Graduate Institute and SwissInfo. 00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:06.319 Tune in wherever you get your podcasts for our future episodes, where we'll be talking to more candidates to be Director General. 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:25.599 And for more information about the WHO and its possible leaders, take a look at the Global Health Centre's dedicated platform by going to gh platform dot org forward slash WHO dash DG dash election. 00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:29.440 I'm Imogen folks, thanks for listening.