07. When the Pen Tears the Paper - Pen & Ink Illustration and Beyond with Richey Beckett bölümünün tam dökümü

through an agent? Is it just that you're well-known enough in that world? The painter comes straight to you? 00:05:46:10 - 00:06:05:20 Speaker 2 Yeah, fortunately, I feel I feel very fortunate. I've never had an agent, and I've sometimes thought that I should, because it's just because it's hard sometimes talking about, I don't know, I try to get better deals. Sometimes it was about separation, but I've never felt right about it. 00:06:06:12 - 00:06:19:20 Speaker 2 There's something a bit pretentious about it, and I've always preferred to talk as closely as I can with whoever I'm working with the least people in between, you know. And I always felt better. And overall, I've just been really fortunate that. 00:06:20:21 - 00:06:39:20 Speaker 2 I'm in a position now where I am. I'm usually approached by people because they want the thing they know that I can make for them. And I established enough of a style and identity that there's enough trust there that people will approach me and directly and just say, Can you do your thing for us? 00:06:39:20 - 00:06:54:11 Speaker 2 You know? So, yeah. Rally. I know a lot of artists are in that world of those kind of jobs where you are very art directed and you have a lot of revisions and a lot of cooks in there, you know? 00:06:55:01 - 00:06:56:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. Stakeholders. 00:06:56:12 - 00:07:13:07 Speaker 2 Oh, that's hard. And I feel. Yeah, I feel really privileged. I don't have to contend with that too often at all. And it's usually doesn't always work out. Sometimes it backfires. If I'll just go headlong crazy into something and then show, you know, work on it and finish it and then it's maybe not. 00:07:13:11 - 00:07:25:23 Speaker 2 I don't know. That doesn't happen too often. I think they usually kind of know what they're getting with me or yeah, I see that as a is definitely a privileged position and I don't take advantage. But yeah, in almost all cases I would. 00:07:26:06 - 00:07:43:21 Speaker 2 I correspond directly with the client. Usually it comes straight to me. In most cases if it's a band, I well, for some of the gig posters it's certain some companies I work with who regularly, you know, it's a client, a couple of clients I work with who do curate posters for some of the bigger bands. 00:07:43:21 - 00:07:59:20 Speaker 2 So necessarily deal with clients in that case. But a lot of the time I do. Certainly if it's record covers, I would, yeah, just try and keep the conversation real tight and inactive as I felt the best way, but also because of the nature of the work I do. 00:07:59:24 - 00:08:17:11 Speaker 2 It's really time consuming and I can only take on a small number of projects a year, so I usually kind of lock those in early on and then I'm kind of on that path. And then if something comes up that I really can't turn down, I'll try and crowbar it in, but there's only so much you can 00:08:17:11 - 00:08:28:00 Speaker 2 draw. So that's kind of like the curse of it in a way, you know, just by the very nature of it, however, however much work came my way, I can do a small amount. 00:08:29:02 - 00:08:39:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. Do you work on sort of multiple pieces at one time? Do you always have things on the go? It's kind of like you see one process from start to end and then the next one. 00:08:39:16 - 00:08:58:21 Speaker 2 I think I'm very single minded. I'm navigating multi-tasking, my brain and in life in general, but especially with projects, I think I get really headlong blinkered into into a very specific thing and to the point where sometimes I don't even there are lots of them. 00:08:59:04 - 00:09:12:20 Speaker 2 I almost feel like I can't remember making them, you know, like I, I, I've got into such a, such a deep hole with it and so focused on it and immersed in it. And I'm almost like blacked out for a month and came up with it. 00:09:12:21 - 00:09:27:14 Speaker 2 And that definitely used to be the case. I've got a lot better now with scheduling my well in terms of like my daily working hours are a bit better than it used to be that I would work through the night and I'd work till four or five in the morning and have those kind of times and it's 00:09:27:14 - 00:09:40:00 Speaker 2 cool. That's definitely that's why you've got that sort of. Alison the Shoemaker vibe where you kind of wake up the next morning like, What did I create? You know, that sort of thing, which is cool and kind of romantic, but sometimes it can. 00:09:40:08 - 00:09:44:12 Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't think it's sustainable long term or yeah. And I think it'd be difficult to make a sustainable, long. 00:09:44:12 - 00:10:01:14 Speaker 2 Term thing that changed is getting a dog as well. He's not, but he's nine months old. Max is still almost kind of a teenager dog. He's starting at my desk now, thankfully asleep and not making shenanigans. But he he's a border collie and he's super energetic and super high energy. 00:10:01:19 - 00:10:13:04 Speaker 2 And he wants to see as the sun comes up, he wants to get up. And since sun goes down, he's asleep. So it's not conducive. If I'm staying at working, he's going to be sleeping. And then if I go to bed as soon as the sun comes up, he's awake. 00:10:13:04 - 00:10:20:00 Speaker 2 So I'm trying to rob and battle against that, trying to use that as a good signifier that maybe there's a healthier way to to spend my time. 00:10:20:08 - 00:10:34:14 Speaker 1 Yeah, I do find I think that kind of working through the night does put you in a different state of mind. Sometimes I feel like I find it just easier to get into like a deep focus state. I think there's there's bits of your brain just quiet down a little bit at nighttime when you're like, like a 00:10:34:14 - 00:10:46:24 Speaker 1 little bit tired or like samples. The brain just yeah, they just kind of quiet down, like the little voices that were always going, Oh, what about this thing? But what about this thing? And kind of

darting around? Yeah, I find they quiet down a little bit in the night and you can just get more easily into that 00:10:47:00 - 00:10:47:21 Speaker 1 kind of flow state. 00:10:48:17 - 00:11:08:08 Speaker 2 Yeah, I totally agree. And I've always I've always just way preferred. I've always felt much more comfortable working and I love it. I love I love the atmosphere, I like it. So, you know, just putting some good music on a long podcast and burning some incense and drink some wine and just get a nice vibe at once 00:11:08:24 - 00:11:19:07 Speaker 2 . And obviously you're not going to be this very few. I mean, I don't get many interruptions here anyway because I'm kind of in the middle of nowhere, but there's even less interruptions than there would be in the daytime. 00:11:19:16 - 00:11:39:08 Speaker 2 And I've. He's just felt way more comfortable and just worked better in the night. But I've heard people describe themselves as night owls and all that stuff. But I've heard a few times recently where something that felt really validating for that is that historically there would be people who would whose job it would be to stay up 00:11:39:08 - 00:11:39:22 Speaker 2 through the night. 00:11:40:10 - 00:11:41:04 Speaker 1 Fire, which is. 00:11:41:16 - 00:11:53:06 Speaker 2 Exactly it. All of that stuff and that makes so much sense is like is the very nature of evolution where nature spews out all of these variety of things with different scales and different temperaments to any kind of animal. 00:11:53:16 - 00:11:59:14 Speaker 2 And I feel like just to cover all bases, it wants to spew out some people who are going to stay up late at night. 00:11:59:14 - 00:12:05:23 Speaker 1 And then you've got people like me who are going to go super early in the morning and like go pick berries off of high trees because I can reach. 00:12:06:11 - 00:12:08:18 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 00:12:19:13 - 00:12:30:20 Speaker 1 And some more some really interesting things about your work there. A few things I kind of did want to ask you about anyway. Yeah. The kind of the freedom of not having a brief. I can see that's very freeing. 00:12:30:20 - 00:12:43:13 Speaker 1 But also sometimes that's like too freeing, I think. You know, when an idea is that open. So where do you start with that? Or do you have like a little bank of ideas that you can draw on? Or do you just like everything fresh? 00:12:43:19 - 00:13:02:02 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's a really good point, because as we know, often those limitations that it was a necessity is the mother of invention. So if when you've got those limitations of a brief, then often they can push you to inspire something, something new and unexpected. 00:13:02:03 - 00:13:15:13 Speaker 2 So yeah, that is definitely the case and I have certainly had those experiences also. But yeah, without a brief I could easily just be aimlessly floating around and just putting out maybe the same kind of thing over and over

or whatever that was to playing it safe with stuff. 00:13:15:21 - 00:13:35:07 Speaker 2 But for me, the way that my brain works creatively is I always need. I thrive on challenge. And I so I kind of set that up for myself whenever I've been kind of seduced into trying to recreate the same thing again or, you know, playing it safe with something. 00:13:35:11 - 00:13:48:04 Speaker 2 I have this off before. I'm going to just try and do that same thing and just twist it. It's never paid off. I've always kind of shot myself in the deck with doing that and not never been happy with the results. 00:13:48:06 - 00:13:53:04 Speaker 1 And is that because you've sort of found it creatively unfulfilling or just. 00:13:53:08 - 00:14:08:07 Speaker 2 I guess so, yeah. But it also feels like there's some little kind of demon there that makes that piece of work. When I've tried, it's kind of caught me out. Like, I've been thinking I can do. Maybe I'll just. 00:14:09:03 - 00:14:23:07 Speaker 2 Just do that thing again. That worked last time and something else is tripped me up. And it's just I can just like work can never quite recreate whatever that magic was the first time around. So I've learned that I think I've done it enough times to learn. 00:14:23:07 - 00:14:35:14 Speaker 2 That's never, never a good career path. So. The way I try to do it, it's more like what you mentioned a minute ago is that I've I think I've got this backlog of things I want to try out almost. 00:14:35:21 - 00:14:49:22 Speaker 2 So then if I'm presented with a with a brief for, say, a new gig poster, I go off into this imaginary sort of backroom of ideas and think like, let's have a look, see what we got here and put something out. 00:14:50:05 - 00:15:09:13 Speaker 2 But that could be, you know, I collect a lot of books and for inspiration and will always be collecting, you know, what images and photos and things from all sorts of sources. And that's usually it. I've got something in the gallery in the back of my mind where I'll be thinking, I remember this thing I saw a 00:15:09:13 - 00:15:30:02 Speaker 2 while ago and I don't think that I just randomly pull books out from the shelf and start sit down at the table, start rifling through them until something sparks interest and feels exciting and interesting to me. And to create the best work, you have to be motivated by it and you have to genuinely, genuinely be inspired and 00:15:30:02 - 00:15:50:19 Speaker 2 excited about it. So I'd rather I'd rather almost selfishly follow something that feels exciting to me, even if it feels a bit of a curveball. So maybe what's expected for this piece. So whether it's set perfectly, because in the end, if it's I know at the start of it, if I'm not excited about it, it's never really 00:15:50:19 - 00:16:05:15 Speaker 2 going to hit the mark or turn out well. And I want to enjoy doing it, especially if I'm committing a month to it. You know, however long or whatever ridiculous amount of time I spend, I want to try and go in confidently knowing that I can keep up some momentum and some excitement for it. 00:16:05:24 - 00:16:13:04 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's an interesting point that yeah. Sort of that you have to be invested in it for it to be a worthwhile piece of work. Yeah, that's cool. 00:16:13:22 - 00:16:14:05 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:16:14:23 - 00:16:16:04 Speaker 1 I'm not sure if I made this up. 00:16:17:14 - 00:16:17:22 Speaker 2 Yes. 00:16:18:20 - 00:16:23:08 Speaker 1 I think. Did you start off you were doing like architectural drawing like a long time. 00:16:23:09 - 00:16:38:05 Speaker 2 Okay. Kind of, but not. I know, I know. I know. The origin of this rumor. It was that when we first met, which was about 15 years. 00:16:38:05 - 00:16:39:13 Speaker 1 Terrifying amount of time ago. 00:16:40:04 - 00:17:07:00 Speaker 2 Yeah, crazy. When we first met, I was working in an architectural studio. Right. And the reason being was that because at that time, this is something that is funny to me, like in my in my art world and my my persona as an artist, most people in that world have no idea about my musical background of in 00:17:07:05 - 00:17:24:21 Speaker 2 interesting as far as I know, like only of people I knew before that and friends in a word but it's you know, I never it's never been a thing that's ever talked about or commented on. Maybe, though, me even identifying that is me just being super pretentious to think that anyone would really care about it. 00:17:24:21 - 00:17:36:20 Speaker 2 Because the reality is, within my circles of friends, everyone has played in bands before and that's how much I got into it. So it's not like a crazy and usual kind of dark, weird history that starts with him. 00:17:37:10 - 00:17:57:15 Speaker 2 But for anyone who doesn't know, they know. If I was if I was doing I play in a band for a decade or more and didn't really make much of it for a long time. But the time when we met, I was playing music and what I figured out was to be able to go on tour with 00:17:57:15 - 00:18:12:00 Speaker 2 my band as often as possible. I needed to be able to hold down a job, which I could. I went through a few phases. I would get really shitty jobs, just terrible jobs that I knew I could confidently quit overnight if I needed to, if I need to leave and go on tour. 00:18:12:13 - 00:18:27:04 Speaker 2 But then with this one, it was brilliant because I actually had a stable job in an architectural office. I wasn't really doing design well, I wasn't doing architectural design, but I was putting together brochures for bids for jobs. 00:18:27:04 - 00:18:46:07 Speaker 2 So like maybe the architectural company were trying a bit to win a job to build a new school or hospital or something. I'd have to put together a tender document for that job, and it was crazy because they were hundreds of millions of pounds, just like insane amounts of money being at stake of whether they would win

00:18:46:07 - 00:18:57:06 Speaker 2 this stuff. And I was the guy who would make the document that was going to be handed over to try and win this job. So that was kind of cool and it definitely taught me a lot in terms of just basic layout principles. 00:18:57:14 - 00:19:13:18 Speaker 2 I mean, I studied graphic design in school or writing, so it was kind of a nice little topic for that, just laying out texts, texts and photos and stuff like that. Nothing too exciting, okay. But like any, like any job at that time, when you're when you're playing in a band, the kind of job you want is 00:19:13:19 - 00:19:26:05 Speaker 2 one way you can take advantage of the services you have. Like, yep, if I. So my thing would be I'd go in. We had flexible work hours, so I'd go in as late as possible cause most people started much earlier. 00:19:26:14 - 00:19:45:00 Speaker 2 And then when everyone left. I would just I did do all the work I was asked to do, but I'd also not go in and print out fliers for shows, designs, use the photocopier, all of that stuff, you know, kind of and take advantage of all the facilities that that studio offered. 00:19:45:08 - 00:19:56:00 Speaker 2 And but they were really cool and they let me kind of tour as much as I want to take as much time off as I needed to do that. So I had that job for a while, but it wasn't as an artistic a job as. 00:19:56:21 - 00:20:08:07 Speaker 1 I wanted to because yeah, in my head I sort of almost imagined this sort of this, this through line of architectural drawing and the kind of the tightness in the detail that would be required for that kind of feeding into into your start of drawing. 00:20:08:16 - 00:20:10:05 Speaker 1 But I just imagined it, apparently. 00:20:10:19 - 00:20:33:08 Speaker 2 Yeah. No, that's if I might start telling that story instead of the perfection of it would drive me insane. Just the having to get everything perfect. I've had to really over time, it's one of my personal missions to break myself out of learning about any of that stuff and embracing imperfections and, you know, asymmetrical mistakes and things 00:20:33:08 - 00:20:36:18 Speaker 2 like that. So I think that kind of job, I don't know if it would be for me. 00:20:37:03 - 00:20:47:20 Speaker 1 It's really interesting you say that actually, because because your work is so intricate and so detailed and so precise. I don't know. I think I almost imagine that you like anyway. 00:20:48:06 - 00:21:08:23 Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, I don't know. I don't I don't know if that's true because my approach to it is really strange. Like I don't I see a lot of other artists in my in my circles of illustrators and people like Evan Hawking, Mike Sutfin come to mind like Mike Sexton and most of you read his work incredible 00:21:08:23 - 00:21:24:22 Speaker 2 illustrator works for he's done a lot of stuff for Mondo. He's a member of The Vacuum and also played in the band. Charles Bronson. Yeah, but it is what it that's like, that amazing little tidbit of factoids about myself. 00:21:25:10 - 00:21:42:11 Speaker 2 But yeah, I didn't see this. I'm saying everyone was in a band doing this, but something played in Charles Bronson and he he's he's an amazing, meticulous pandemic artist. Incredible. He's done a ton. He got his chops from doing use of illustration for magic. 00:21:42:11 - 00:21:43:00 Speaker 2 The Gathering. 00:21:43:02 - 00:21:43:14 Speaker 1 Oh, wow. 00:21:43:19 - 00:21:44:07 Speaker 2 Cats. 00:21:45:06 - 00:21:46:13 Speaker 1 Dragons and witches and stuff. 00:21:46:24 - 00:22:04:10 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. It's amazing, amazing stuff. And his when the way he draws, he draws using the same, you know, like writing technical patterns and things, same as I've been using for a long time. But he'll draw the entire thing out immaculately in pencil first. 00:22:04:10 - 00:22:22:15 Speaker 2 Right. And then using, using a light box, I guess. Well, perfectly so. I see of trace. It'll change. But effectively he's then locked into the piece of artwork and then over many days, many weeks even, he'll meticulously go over and get it locked in. 00:22:22:20 - 00:22:32:23 Speaker 2 I think Corky works in a similar way and lets other people, smart people do that, you know, and I hate him, but my way is I just can't do it. I don't know what I. I can't bring myself to work in that way. 00:22:33:02 - 00:22:53:13 Speaker 2 I don't know if it's psychologically drawing the same thing twice. Feels weird to me, but the way I do it is very loose. Although I trick you into thinking that I'm really meticulous. The reality of it is I'll make a very loose sketch or I'll print out a loose reproduction of a sketch and just do. 00:22:53:13 - 00:23:06:10 Speaker 2 The old graphite paper doesn't really work because it's really hard to erase. So I'll usually just get a thick pencil, put it over the back of the printer, and then just push through the design so that I get a very faint crude image of it. 00:23:06:10 - 00:23:08:22 Speaker 2 And then I just go straight in with the pen and just do it. 00:23:08:22 - 00:23:09:10 Speaker 1 Oh, wow. 00:23:09:19 - 00:23:26:17 Speaker 2 So I don't. Yeah, mistakes happening constantly that only I recognize, I guess. But but yeah it's not, it's not meticulous in a way of is planned out to a point but not in terms of the detail. It's not, it's already done on the fly. 00:23:27:02 - 00:23:41:16 Speaker 2 And I think for me has a thrill, a nerdy sort of thrill in that as if I'm going to be spending hours and hours drawing a thing to get some satisfaction from it. So I'm not just ticking boxes and just tracing things. 00:23:42:03 - 00:23:58:01 Speaker 2 I, I like the feeling of just being on the edge. Like, I am going to probably fuck up every note constantly, but it's more I think I always associate it. I grew up pretty close with a lot of tattoo stuff being very. 00:23:58:08 - 00:24:01:10 Speaker 1 I was just

thinking about that like the like. Do you like freehand tattoos? 00:24:01:21 - 00:24:20:05 Speaker 2 Yeah. It's that sort of mentality. I know this takes on as high, but that same mentality of endurance straight in with pen and and I'm not one for editing stuff so it's like if a mistake is that unless it's really really crucially bad yeah I'll leave it in you know like I don't there's some principle behind it 00:24:20:06 - 00:24:33:00 Speaker 2 where I want to scan in the key line and that's the key line. And I don't really I'll do a little touch up here and there, but generally what's. I was there. And so to me, in my own mind, when I'm doing it, I think of it like a tattoo, you know? 00:24:33:12 - 00:24:46:01 Speaker 1 I think that the approach is like it forces you to be confident in a way because you can't like a lot of time when I draw out sort of ultra like five lines and pick the one I like and reinforce that once, you know what I mean. 00:24:46:10 - 00:24:51:08 Speaker 1 But you can't do that. You have to just be like, this is the line, this is and you have to go with that kind of confidence. 00:24:51:08 - 00:25:08:11 Speaker 2 And yeah, because there's a thing with a lot of digital artists where they have this things that I've seen people post process videos, digital work, I'll have a system set up where they've got one hand on whatever, you know, Command Z commands. 00:25:08:11 - 00:25:28:13 Speaker 2 The command said the the undo button and one hand on the tablet, you know, drawing away and they're drawing the line and then undoing it becomes this weird kind of muscle memory thing where they'll literally draw it like hundred times until it's right, you know, and then go on to the next line. 00:25:29:03 - 00:25:47:00 Speaker 2 And that feels so strange to me. And I. It's a it's a method for sure. But the I'm I like the way that you've described it. It makes sense that yeah, of course you could draw a line a few times, but I've seen people doing it like so many times, so quickly, just like to trial and then 00:25:47:20 - 00:26:06:11 Speaker 2 and then on the next one. And that seems so that's very much the opposite. So my way of doing it is I have the drawing sketched out super loose. Then I'll, I like the idea of just preparing, you know, even so it can be so frustrating because you'll pick up even like the rushing pens are really like 00:26:06:11 - 00:26:24:15 Speaker 2 at the moment. And I've gone through phases using different pens and microns and Mars my and all these different ones. But at the moment I'm using the Russians and really enjoying them. But like any other pen, even though they designed them in probably 1950s, they don't figured out how they can stop them from blocking up or all 00:26:24:16 - 00:26:39:13 Speaker 2 these things that go along with it. Only I've got one that's leaking, one that's blocked, one that works, and but even that is kind of throwing me careful is like I'm working on a piece right now and it's a very a lot of it is really done, very freehand and just organically. 00:26:40:10 - 00:26:55:02 Speaker 2 And I've got maybe three or four gauges of pen by my side that when like a superfine 0.5 or whatever it is and then two or three up to like a really thick, bold outline and then all these technical pens. 00:26:55:12 - 00:27:08:07 Speaker 2 But among them, one 0.3 Every time I pick it up to let off, I keep forgetting it's leaking everywhere. So as soon as I open it, my hands covered in black ink and it's just everywhere. And I'll clean that off, use it for a bit and then put it away and forget that it's leaking. 00:27:08:07 - 00:27:20:08 Speaker 2 And so the next I pick it up and then there's another one I pick up every time and start working with it and then realize that it's not working. But I and rather than getting frustrated by it and thinking, Oh, hey, I could just work digitally and none of this would be all those issues would be off 00:27:20:08 - 00:27:31:16 Speaker 2 the table. There's no you're not going to get your work on tablet blocked or it's not going to leak out of you. But I've tried to embrace that, rather be frustrated by it. Okay, so this pen is just not working right now. 00:27:31:21 - 00:27:46:19 Speaker 2 What else can I use and just reach for something else that might be the same kind of pen, like a totally different pen or different size. And this is just the way that, you know, the winds have changed and this is what I'm using right now and try and embrace that variation so that within one drawing there'll 00:27:46:19 - 00:28:01:05 Speaker 2 be all these crazy different line widths and different qualities of ink. Some things a bit blue, it seems a bit blacker. And I think a few years ago that would have driven me crazy. I would have been definitely seeking that consistency and I would trying to get those blocks real pure or whatever. 00:28:01:18 - 00:28:08:03 Speaker 2 Whereas now I'm trying to enjoy yeah, those weird looking something else. So some external forces guide. 00:28:08:10 - 00:28:09:07 Speaker 1 There's an element of chaos. 00:28:09:15 - 00:28:22:11 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. In terms of put the, put in the income, the paper. I enjoy that moment and I think of it like the way that a tattoo artist prepares, you know, prepares the scene and gets all of their equipment ready and clean and good to go. 00:28:22:18 - 00:28:36:21 Speaker 2 And I like that ritual of putting some music on. Can the right vibe set up and then choosing the paper, getting the pen ready, and then that moment when you've got the pencil and then you're ready to just start working over in the pen. 00:28:36:21 - 00:28:49:21 Speaker 2 And I definitely hold my breath and grit my teeth. And I like, I like with the with the technical patterns, the way that I use like a really heavy watercolor paper. And then I really like the way that the nib kind of tests through the paper sometimes. 00:28:49:21 -

00:29:01:23 Speaker 2 So you can actually feel it's not just the end which you wouldn't get from digital work, you know, it is actually just tearing through the surface of the paper on a microscopic level and you can feel it and hear it and those bits of ink kind of bleeding out. 00:29:02:09 - 00:29:15:15 Speaker 2 And because I, I'm really short sighted, so I write contact lenses most of the time. I hate wearing glasses, but I when I'm drawing, when I've got lenses and somehow I can't focus on the page at the close level, I need to. 00:29:16:10 - 00:29:27:09 Speaker 2 So I can't draw with lenses and so I have to take them out and when I have them, I'll have my glasses to hand. But basically I'm working at a very close level with maybe like three or four inches away from the page. 00:29:27:21 - 00:29:37:12 Speaker 2 So I'm really in my own world in this one, in this space, and I probably am seeing the fibers of the paper's tear as I'm drawing on. I'm super close, and if I pull back, I can't see it anymore. 00:29:37:12 - 00:29:48:17 Speaker 2 So I kind of work on little pockets of illustration and then after a bit of a session, then put put my glasses on and see where I am. Yeah, I like a picture. 00:29:49:13 - 00:29:59:18 Speaker 1 That's so interesting. I mean, yeah, I kind of feel like I was. I didn't like my impression of your process was quite wrong in some ways, but then I just I had this in the notes I was writing. 00:30:01:21 - 00:30:14:19 Speaker 1 I'm going to read this to you anyway. And I think it's I think you've sort of like refuted in some ways part of your voice here. But this is I actually wrote these notes a long time, quite a long time ago when I first thought of doing this podcast. 00:30:15:13 - 00:30:25:07 Speaker 1 I make like a list of names of people I wanted to talk to you. And you were one of the first names on that on that list. And so I kind of just made a few notes about like, this is the kind of thing we might talk about of cool. 00:30:25:10 - 00:30:40:08 Speaker 1 So I actually found these notes today and I was like, Oh, that's quite a nice little paragraph. I've spoken about too much now. But anyway, so. Which is process of work is very satisfying and relaxing to watch the same feeling of precision and exactness that we get from watching machinery being assembled in a factory. 00:30:40:14 - 00:30:45:24 Speaker 1 Each pen stroke deliberate without hesitation, as if the hand that is guiding it knows exactly where it needs to be placed. 00:30:48:06 - 00:30:49:12 Speaker 2 Oh, that's beautiful. 00:30:50:12 - 00:31:00:11 Speaker 1 And it is like it's like I say that kind of no hesitation. I think it's a thing of like, yeah, this line and this line is everything flows. And I guess it as come from that flow stays. 00:31:00:14 - 00:31:19:04 Speaker 2 That's for. Thank you for writing. That's like, um. And it sounds yeah, it sounds beautiful. And, but like you said, yeah, I actually, I, yeah, I feel like I'm really free tend into a lot of it, but I'm not, it's not, it's not as precise and calculated as it might appear. 00:31:19:15 - 00:31:33:17 Speaker 2 And I don't know if that's because maybe. But then maybe I'm presenting if you thinking of if you watch this, you know, the videos that I put together which I always I've been, haven't made anything like that for a long time, actually. 00:31:33:18 - 00:31:51:12 Speaker 2 I realized I need to get back into some sort of documentation of the process because I had a few times recently, I'd had some messages recently from people asking about what program I use now cause you know, like making assumptions that the work was just the work. 00:31:51:14 - 00:31:52:12 Speaker 2 I was like, Why would they come back? 00:31:52:19 - 00:32:06:05 Speaker 1 That really surprises me, I think. I think your work, you know, I think it has a quality which I don't I think would be almost impossible to replicate digitally know. I think like you're saying, like that element of chaos, like the the interaction of the ink and the paper. 00:32:06:17 - 00:32:10:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think, you know, you can do a lot with digital programs, but I think there is something. 00:32:11:00 - 00:32:28:16 Speaker 2 Or again like this there's this echo back to me of that like hearing that from hearing that feedback is quite inspiring. Firstly, to try and show more of that and put that out there, you know, yeah, I'm kind of interested by that and it also makes me want to push more to maybe whereas in the past maybe 00:32:28:16 - 00:32:47:15 Speaker 2 I would have spent more time cleaning things up, cleaning up the Q I know a bit differently if I was necessarily I've steered further and further away from that and that hearing that makes me want to do it even further away for the point of just having a clearer voice of of celebrating what's interesting about working in 00:32:47:15 - 00:33:09:13 Speaker 2 that way, you know, of, of, of, of those weird inconsistencies and little wobbly lines and bits of ink still them. Because whenever I need to kind of reassure myself about that and not because it's like the auto tuning your voice if you're singing and you can imagine if it was you singing as me singing if it if 00:33:09:14 - 00:33:26:15 Speaker 2 it was me singing and my voice went way out of tune and someone could fix it. I'd probably like, you know, fix it for sure. But as we know, if we're listening to someone else now, that's what I liked about it was those little bits where I kind of did something interesting and strange and not be sterilized 00:33:26:16 - 00:33:36:10 Speaker 2 in that way. But when it's your self doing it, it's harder to recognize that the voice is the same thing. It's harder for me to believe in those little wonky lines, so there's lulling slots. 00:33:36:10 - 00:33:52:19 Speaker 1 So I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with, a lot of creative people. And I think part of

that reason is because as a creative person, I think you develop for really good taste. You develop a really good understanding of like especially with something that's quite craft intensive, you develop a really good understanding of 00:33:52:19 - 00:34:10:08 Speaker 1 what's been done well and what is technically a fault. And I think and so you're very critical of your own work, but it's kind of reassuring in a way to hear that you struggle with it as well. And with all of that in mind, again, I think I sort of had a slightly misguided view of your working 00:34:10:08 - 00:34:20:18 Speaker 1 processes. But I'm curious, like what to you feels creatively risky and is there anything where you feel like creatively it's like almost like too risky or you'd be like a place you wouldn't want to go creatively. 00:34:21:20 - 00:34:26:23 Speaker 2 Hmm. I don't. I don't know, dude. Like, semantically or or. 00:34:26:24 - 00:34:33:21 Speaker 1 I don't know. Yeah, actually. Or in terms of process or either. Because that's to me, like, you're almost kind of on the edge of like. 00:34:34:03 - 00:34:37:05 Speaker 2 Oh, like on a personal level, pushing the, pushing those boundaries. 00:34:37:11 - 00:34:39:10 Speaker 1 I guess yourself you have your field in practice. 00:34:40:00 - 00:34:53:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, I definitely like to do that. Like I feel you. Yeah, I definitely don't feel fulfilled enough if I'm not trying to push some boundary with each piece. And it goes two ways. Like I think that. Often. I will. 00:34:53:20 - 00:35:06:05 Speaker 2 I'll think that I'm. I think there's a lot more room to move than. Than maybe we realize, like, if I try and push the boundaries something and think, oh, this is this is going to be a crazy departure from what I usually do. 00:35:07:05 - 00:35:24:08 Speaker 2 To me, it might be because I think. Because my methods are so focused. Really. This sounds contradictory to what I described as like my actual process of mark making and drawing. But in terms of, say, for example, the materials I use is actually really, really focused over time. 00:35:24:08 - 00:35:37:09 Speaker 2 It's got tighter and tighter. I've actually applied a lot of rules to the way I make work in terms of how the lines are formed and what kind of thing. I, you know, like, like, for example, that in my work there's not perspective isn't really a thing. 00:35:37:18 - 00:35:53:11 Speaker 2 Not really effective in that it's very much just almost flat layers. And I've made it that way because I like to have a really, you know, it's like if you form a band and you decide, I'm just going to use this one distortion pedal and we're going to play a bass, but it only has two strings on 00:35:53:11 - 00:35:56:11 Speaker 2 it and we're going to, you know, like stuff to just reflect the sound and like. 00:35:56:13 - 00:35:57:10 Speaker 1 Set yourself rules. 00:35:57:18 - 00:36:08:18 Speaker 2 Yeah. And so I like that idea from it, mainly from my own society. But those rules feel better to me that focus. So I know the materials and I know that I know which things are off the cards. 00:36:08:19 - 00:36:28:15 Speaker 2 I don't that I'm not going to bring into it, but that if I do break those rules established for myself, it feels like a really big deal. So say for example, it usually in most of my work where especially because it's geared towards screenprint or color always within the lines, you know, the color won't break out of 00:36:28:15 - 00:36:38:02 Speaker 2 a line and a color won't merge with another color. You know, it'll just be blocks of color for a long time of it that way. So then the first time I ever blended two colors together felt like a huge departure for me. 00:36:38:13 - 00:36:45:22 Speaker 2 But it's not like anyone actually would notice it. Because if you feel like, Oh my God, have you seen what he's done now? Just blend together. 00:36:45:22 - 00:36:47:06 Speaker 1 Is there someone else? 00:36:47:19 - 00:37:07:07 Speaker 2 I'm sure there's someone out there knows, but for me, it's that's huge because it changes all the rules. You know, overnight, something like the possibilities now are kind of too much to handle. But so for me, even though I'm describing like for me, I'm saying like I'm always pushing boundaries, but only on a very personal microscopic level 00:37:07:24 - 00:37:28:15 Speaker 2 . To me, it's not like I'm going out there and painting on a trapeze with my own blood or some crazy thing. I'm just it's like I'm there, my own personal little boundaries that I'm crossing in terms of making it, making art in a different way, but in the confines of like ink on paper is a show issue 00:37:29:07 - 00:37:47:00 Speaker 2 . And at the same time, I think I often it's probably a part of that where you feel like you want to maintain that identity that you've established and keep keep that going. And you think, I know if I make something too strange or far out, then people are going to be so confused by it that I'm going 00:37:47:00 - 00:38:05:09 Speaker 2 to kind of fuck up this thing I've already made for myself. But actually people are way cooler about or more open or maybe don't and not as critical as we might think about that sort of stuff. Like I feel like I'm actually often I'll put something out which I think is like a really massive departure and people 00:38:05:09 - 00:38:13:15 Speaker 2 like Cool, everything is fine, you know? It's like, yeah. So yeah, that's kind of exciting. Encouraging actually. 00:38:22:24 - 00:38:37:06 Speaker 1 I want to talk a little bit about kind of like subject matter as well in terms of like the type of things that you that you that you draw. Obviously, there's a huge variety, but I think there is we kind of see trends and themes and things that you kind of return to. 00:38:37:23 - 00:38:53:05 Speaker 1 One of the things actually I noticed just looking through more recent work, it's quite a portrait

in which I always find it interesting because it's something I've always struggled with. I like to capture a likeness of some of a person or something I thought of, and I just never really been able to crack. 00:38:53:15 - 00:39:01:17 Speaker 1 I'm really interested in the process of drawing a portrait in terms of the kind of relationships that it creates between the artist and the subject. 00:39:02:08 - 00:39:02:12 Speaker 2 Mm hmm. 00:39:02:24 - 00:39:15:15 Speaker 1 How you approach that in terms of, like, your representation of them and the kind of responsibility that you feel in terms of how you present them, or if it's just a bunch of shapes that you're replicating. Yeah. 00:39:15:16 - 00:39:35:05 Speaker 2 No. As you as as you first broach the subject, the word responsibility was the first thing that came to my mind as a which I, I don't think I've been too heavy on myself with. Even though I did come straight to mind, I don't think I've been kind punishing on myself, but with with feeling that responsibility because 00:39:35:18 - 00:39:50:13 Speaker 2 I think for my from my point of view, the way I try and justify it is if I'm I've been very fortunate that on the whole, most of the bands that I made posters for I'm a fan of. 00:39:50:14 - 00:40:14:23 Speaker 2 So I'm absolutely thinking of it from that side of the field. I'm coming in as a fan of the music and then if it if it is a portrait, then I'm thinking about not so much how they want to be seen, but more how I or we collectively as friends and fans of the music would see them 00:40:14:24 - 00:40:29:22 Speaker 2 or yeah, like whatever elevated kind of vision that might be of whichever direction that takes, takes you and or how does the music make me feel in terms of how do I see them through the music? Yeah, hopefully. 00:40:30:08 - 00:40:44:18 Speaker 2 Hopefully that translates on the other end because of course, how could we, you know, most of those people I mean, certainly a lot of them are people that I know, but even even however I know that my friends know that music better, know that music more than I know that. 00:40:44:23 - 00:41:06:14 Speaker 2 And yeah, that's ultimately what that's what's being represented. And of course, like any musician or artist we it's never going to be a true reflection of ourselves. It's always kind of a character we've created. So I don't think I've ever felt that a big concern that someone's going to step up and say, like, Hey, I don't know 00:41:06:14 - 00:41:20:09 Speaker 2 that this really feels like what I want to be seen. I mean, yeah, but. I guess I want I always want things to come across in a kind of romantic way. And why not? And I think that's definitely in me. 00:41:20:17 - 00:41:36:11 Speaker 2 I want it to be a kind of fantastical version of whatever the thing is, an exaggerated theatrical version of whoever the person is or subject is. Yeah, naturally to me. And I think that's generally embraced because why not? 00:41:36:16 - 00:41:49:20 Speaker 2 I like that's absolutely, you know, that the music that's being created as well, you know, it's always going to be some sort of fantastical voice of someone that's there. 00:41:50:03 - 00:42:07:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think because as you say, you're sort of drawing from almost like from the perspective of a fan and sort of like you're drawing like a fan's expectation of that person. So in a way, you're drawing sort of their projected image and there's a kind of yeah, that's like a real truth to that in terms of 00:42:07:18 - 00:42:12:13 Speaker 1 the image that we see things I guess potentially separate from the truth of them as a, you know, person. 00:42:12:22 - 00:42:25:24 Speaker 2 Yeah, I consider it a good example of that actually. And this is kind of more like a cool thought experiment really was when I did the Jimi Hendrix poster. 00:42:26:09 - 00:42:28:06 Speaker 1 Mm hmm. I've got it on my screen right now, actually. 00:42:29:05 - 00:42:48:04 Speaker 2 Well, it was, of course, the version we think of whenever it thinks of Jimi Hendrix. We have this crazy super hero, flamboyant, you know, incredible guitar hero character version of him, which is very true. But as we've seen when he's interviewed, I saw it a couple of days ago, it's like an interview with him when he was 00:42:48:04 - 00:43:06:11 Speaker 2 on the American chat show, a kind of, I don't know, whatever the equivalent of Wogan or whatever they were watching it. And he's on this chat show for Parkinson, but he's on this chat show and they say about him being like the greatest great, great guitarist, the great stars of all time. 00:43:06:16 - 00:43:20:15 Speaker 2 And he's really so coy and shy about it. And it's like, I get out of here and I like, doesn't accept that. So that would be much more true. And if if people who knew him would have a perception of them, which would be much more honest in the world at large, probably has no idea about that 00:43:20:15 - 00:43:36:18 Speaker 2 vision of who the real Jimi Hendrix was. But for the purpose of making this poster, my idea was that I imagined if someone was at Monterey in the front row, so the show saw him set fire to his guitar and play with his teeth and do all of these things. 00:43:37:03 - 00:43:51:14 Speaker 2 If they then went and described it, someone who wasn't at the show and said, I was so crazy, man, should've seen it. The guitar, I think he was on fire, you know, like what they would describe would just be this otherworldly, insane thing, which would be true. 00:43:51:14 - 00:44:00:24 Speaker 2 But it would be, of course, a crazy, exaggerated memory. And plus, at the time, like, they wouldn't have been there with their phones filming it, you know, they would have probably very few would have had cameras for sure. 00:44:01:00 - 00:44:18:16 Speaker 2 Like maybe only the actual photographers would have me when they would have just come out of there and tell

people about it. So my little thought experiment to make that poster was thinking what I want the poster to look like, what someone who was at the show would describe to them, you know, which is he's actually pretty 00:44:18:17 - 00:44:30:03 Speaker 2 much his guitar is on fire whilst he's playing it, which is obviously didn't happen. But someone who was there probably and probably triple doubles bulls at the same time. Yeah, he would have come and told him I think he's says guitar fire. 00:44:30:03 - 00:44:32:10 Speaker 2 And while Steve's solo in it was crazy. 00:44:33:07 - 00:44:48:22 Speaker 1 That's great, right? Yeah. Like you're drawing, like, the legend of the moment and. Yeah, yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a lovely way of looking at it. I think that's interesting. What about when the subject isn't a celebrity? So for example, if it's just, you know, a sort of an enormous anomalous. 00:44:48:22 - 00:44:58:18 Speaker 1 That's not how you say that. What an anonymous face are you then? Are you drawing that from a model? And do you have this? What's your relationship there? Are you making a face up? 00:44:59:00 - 00:45:23:20 Speaker 2 My ideal scenario would always be. And you see, these are old amazing photos of like Newcastle Studio or whoever. Amazing, amazing, amazing archives of photos out of Picasso's studio and Bacon's studio and all these cool things. And obviously the further back you go to these more kind of romantic, like the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood and all of this stuff 00:45:24:11 - 00:45:39:16 Speaker 2 , those guys had these big, high ceilinged, beautiful studios where they'd have models who would come and sit for them, or someone like Luca would photograph models in his studio and use those. That's the ideal scenario that we would all want to have, and I certainly would. 00:45:39:16 - 00:45:59:02 Speaker 2 And I've had times before when I have, I haven't like hired models in the capacity. So it's usually a friend of a friend who has been roped into doing it. But usually it's a time constraint thing too is just like if I need to start projects, you need to start immediately and I don't have time to lead 00:45:59:02 - 00:46:15:13 Speaker 2 in time to get all of that stuff lined up. So I have I've done it a little bit. I've managed to get people into government posts specifically for things. And my partner Johanna posed for a few things recently for me to post registered. 00:46:15:13 - 00:46:31:08 Speaker 2 She's breastfeeding an octopus. The one for Pangea's seed for the ocean charity. I did. She's a mermaid. So she's talked up in a few pieces recently. And then beyond that, the other piece I've made over time, usually I'll use. 00:46:32:07 - 00:46:49:12 Speaker 2 Old photos, either from books that I've collected, books about it, because it's less likely that other people are going to use the same reference photos. And I'll try and dig into things that are like 1920s or. Well, I guess that's like the dawn of

photography as we know. 00:46:49:12 - 00:47:06:17 Speaker 2 It really is probably around that time anyway. So there's not much apart from some old tintype photography, isn't it for that? But usually I'll go back to the 1920s, 1950s photographs and just I've got stockpiles of stuff I've saved from those sort of eras. 00:47:07:04 - 00:47:20:03 Speaker 2 But it is a dangerous game because there's definitely been times and I've used an image and then I've seen someone else has stumbled upon the same archival photos and used the same ones, and it suddenly just burst that bubble up on your work. 00:47:20:03 - 00:47:31:10 Speaker 2 So over when that's happened, over time, I've tried. I try to get to. It's only using stuff, which is. Ideally a bit more obscure. You know. 00:47:32:12 - 00:47:45:11 Speaker 1 That's interesting, though, even though it's kind of it's been through the process of, you know, of your re-imagining and you're reinterpreting and drawing, that you can still recognize it. You know, you can still recognize something as well. 00:47:46:01 - 00:48:03:20 Speaker 2 Yeah, that I think I always I think I for a while I assumed that the transformation of me drawing it would be enough to take it away from the source material. But it's really the case that, you know, I think once when if I've got that image in front of me, I'm going to instinctively want to the 00:48:03:20 - 00:48:27:08 Speaker 2 essence of it, I want to match as tightly as possible. There's something nice about using those old photos, though, because. Because the quality of them is usually that pretty high contrast crude about, you know, not very detailed that they've they've been shot in a way that you really get those dark shadows and kind of almost feel like 00:48:27:08 - 00:48:29:12 Speaker 2 they have outlines around them. Yeah. 00:48:29:15 - 00:48:37:11 Speaker 1 Stylistically as well, we mentioned kind of, you know, Art Nouveau earlier, taking images from that period. It just kind of ties things in as very subtle. 00:48:37:19 - 00:48:39:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, just the styling and the look. 00:48:50:20 - 00:49:01:16 Speaker 1 I've kind of gone down a bit of a weird rabbit hole with something and I want to talk to you about X. I think you'll be into it. So on the previous episode, I spoke to the artist well together. 00:49:02:02 - 00:49:22:01 Speaker 1 I don't know if you're aware of his work. He paints in oils, pets, a lot of portrait portraits based work. He's very interested in the uncanny, and he's talking about his idea of this, where he calls the painted space and this idea that one, namely myself, if I if I stand here next to a waxwork model of 00:49:22:01 - 00:49:37:02 Speaker 1 me, you can't know which is which, you know, which is the real me and which is the waxwork model. But through the process of painting, you can create this extra sort of layer of reality where those two things have the same amount of realness as show. 00:49:37:16 - 00:49:52:15 Speaker 1 And I think I think that idea itself is really interesting. And I think there's something similar I think perhaps happening in your work, but on a slightly different level, maybe I was thinking about it as an expression of life. 00:49:53:07 - 00:50:12:16 Speaker 1 I've gone way off the rails on this. So I think, you know, you can draw something that has no life or is a symbol of of death, like a skull or skeleton. And in through that process of drawing, you can imbue it with a sense of life, as much a life as you would see in something in 00:50:12:16 - 00:50:19:13 Speaker 1 the real world, in the kind of like the level of reality that exists in that drawing. You're kind of creating this. 00:50:19:13 - 00:50:43:22 Speaker 2 Yeah, that, that really, that really resonates with me actually, because I thinking of thinking to reference materials again in the past, probably I can think of the last time I did it, but in the past I've definitely used images of statues and sculptures for faces and bodies and no one, as far as I know, no one has 00:50:43:22 - 00:50:48:05 Speaker 2 looked at them and said, wait a minute, is that that's not a real person. That's a statue, you know? 00:50:48:05 - 00:50:48:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:50:48:11 - 00:51:07:01 Speaker 2 And just generally, I think I've definitely done that in the past and through doing things like cloaking them in in clothes or giving them flowing hair or whatever these different devices might be, it might be that I could have drawn something based on the statue or sculpture that actually reads as being alive. 00:51:08:00 - 00:51:19:17 Speaker 2 And at the same time, I could draw someone from real life who is drawing in a very statuesque way. And by still it appears that the most statuesque of the two. So yeah, that that makes sense to me. 00:51:19:17 - 00:51:35:02 Speaker 2 And also the way I was describing it, the sort of lack of perspective in things where I sort of stack things together in a strange way and overlap things, but then also bring light to things by having intentionally crossing lines. 00:51:35:02 - 00:51:55:02 Speaker 2 And it creates some sort of vibration of movement in there, which hopefully brings the whole thing to life. And it's some weird contradiction where I like things to have these uncanny, unrealistic fold out lines and those little evoked traits, but then at the same time have stuff that injects life and movement into them, you know? 00:51:55:02 - 00:51:56:09 Speaker 2 So yeah, yeah. 00:51:56:22 - 00:52:10:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. I think that's like life and movement. Like a lot of your work, it feels like there's a narrative there that we're not quite being told, Yeah, it feels like there's more. There's more beyond the drawing itself. There's a reality there that we can't do. 00:52:10:08 - 00:52:12:04 Speaker 1 We kind of on the brink of that. 00:52:12:04 - 00:52:26:04 Speaker 2 So I want yeah, and I think it comes from growing up

so obsessed with movies and movie making and I love like editing and you know, like films and things like that, big passions of mine and things that get me excited. 00:52:26:04 - 00:52:40:06 Speaker 2 And I've always consciously, consciously or subconsciously studied that my whole life, you know, like film, film and movement. And I don't really I don't see a big division between the two things the way that I see it. I like to imagine that. 00:52:41:06 - 00:52:51:14 Speaker 2 The know piece of artwork is just a freeze frame snapshot of a longer piece in the stuff going on either side, like you said that you don't quite hear like like when the end of a song fades out. 00:52:51:18 - 00:53:06:01 Speaker 2 You know, there's still a song that you just can't hear it. It's kind of something like that on either side of the picture. And that's just how I like it to be, you know? And but what happens is once I first went down that path and started touring in that way and started adding in these things to 00:53:06:01 - 00:53:20:09 Speaker 2 show movement, and I always think of it, there's always some sort of rush of wind coming through it and there's always some. Everything is moving in some way and. Because it's been a kind of upholding a standard in a way of just always that being the language. 00:53:20:13 - 00:53:33:23 Speaker 2 I can't imagine I wouldn't have even considered doing it a different way. It just is always just just the way I the way I think of it. And to not have that movement movement and it feels especially kind of stagnant to me. 00:53:34:09 - 00:53:34:19 Speaker 2 Yes. 00:53:34:19 - 00:53:44:12 Speaker 1 I think that's the thing. I think it creates such a compelling image and it feels like it feels like there's a before and an after to the image. I guess you could think of it as being cinematic, you know, like that there's a, there's an ongoing thing. 00:53:44:13 - 00:53:45:23 Speaker 1 The idea that. Yeah, like. 00:53:45:24 - 00:53:49:13 Speaker 2 A little teaser trailer for a movie you'll never see. Yeah. 00:53:49:23 - 00:54:01:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, maybe something like that. Interesting. Actually, you mentioned editing and things like that, because I do want to talk to you about the music video that you directed for the song Twisted. Have you done more? Is that. That's the one. 00:54:01:16 - 00:54:16:20 Speaker 2 That's the one. But right now, I'm deeply immersed in the second one we're making together, cause that's that's really what is the going into this year? Yeah. Johanna and I made that so over a year ago now, I guess. 00:54:16:20 - 00:54:38:03 Speaker 2 But then the video would have come out within that timeframe. But yeah, that experience making a video was really, really incredible and something which I've had such an excitement of, of filmmaking. That's Johanna. It moved over here during pandemic times two years ago. 00:54:38:12 - 00:54:52:18 Speaker 2 And the one thing when she came over here, she's the one thing that she had to abandon was that she planned to make this video in Seattle. I think it was. It was supposed to be filming. And it was the what the one project she had kind of abandoned and came over here and had the concept in 00:54:52:18 - 00:55:05:11 Speaker 2 place. And I came up with I kind of proposed we could do this ourselves, you know, maybe I know a few people here and in the film world, and I feel between us we could probably pull that off. 00:55:05:11 - 00:55:26:20 Speaker 2 And yet it didn't. We yeah. We ended up casting ourselves into this crazy world of just. Learning so much in a short space of time and with Joe has made tons of videos in the past, but not from the directing and creative side. 00:55:26:20 - 00:55:40:07 Speaker 2 So much, I suppose. I had. Kind of studied film in my own way. My whole life. I've been super passionate about it since I was a kid, kind of obsessed with film and still am, and had studied film in college as well alongside art. 00:55:40:07 - 00:55:49:24 Speaker 2 But always had this thing where I. You know, you want to do all this, all the stuff like I want to be in a band and make music I want to make and I want to make film too, and whichever. 00:55:50:04 - 00:56:00:17 Speaker 2 And I always felt like whichever one I committed to, I was neglecting the other. And always, you know, when I was making music, I was I kind of had this guilt of knowing that I was a better artist and I was a musician. 00:56:00:23 - 00:56:12:19 Speaker 2 And at the same time, even when I'm making art, I always had fantasized about this other life that I wished I'd had as a filmmaker. And the truth is, you can't do all the things if you know it's possible. 00:56:14:13 - 00:56:39:05 Speaker 2 So, yeah, we just just threw ourselves into making that video. And we are very fortunate to have once again our mutual friend Ryan McFall was. I had a string of Zoom conversations with him, just did Tim just giving me guidance and advice in a really cool way and with a lot of ideas and teaching me a lot 00:56:39:05 - 00:57:04:05 Speaker 2 there that was really inspiring. And then we ended up making the video with another Ryan, Ryan Edelsten, who's an incredible cinematographer and has worked on so many amazing projects and films and videos over many years. And he was so incredibly generous with his guidance and help and advice, and he kind of took us under his wing and 00:57:05:01 - 00:57:23:20 Speaker 2 helped guide us through what it took to make to create and direct and make a video. And the crazy thing was because of that, also because of the constraints of firstly budget, but also because it was in COVID times, we couldn't really have a big team of production crew behind it. 00:57:24:03 - 00:57:37:09 Speaker 2 It was just impossible to do. So we ended up working with the absolute minimum minimum team that we had, which is just like myself. Ryan And then, you know, Lighting Gaffer and Johanna in there and

a couple of extras in there. 00:57:37:19 - 00:57:58:03 Speaker 2 But basically Joe and I for that video, we wrote the treatment for it, but then we built and designed and dressed and painted the whole set. We did all the filming and editing and the video effects and the coloring and everything, basically, you know? 00:57:58:04 - 00:58:17:15 Speaker 2 And there was stuff that I didn't know how to use any of these editing programs that just kind of learn it overnight and do it in a week. And it was just this incredible crash course in filmmaking, but it was some of the coolest, you know, the most fulfilling, fun times I've had and just the challenge of 00:58:17:15 - 00:58:27:04 Speaker 2 just being so out of your depth. But but a combination of being out your depth also at the same time, a big part of me felt like, oh yeah, this is this also feels totally right. And you're supposed to be here doing this. 00:58:27:04 - 00:58:39:06 Speaker 2 And you've always known that you were that you wanted to do this, you know. So that was yeah, it was just so much fun and and yeah, just really cool collaborate. You know, I don't do much work in as collaborative. 00:58:39:06 - 00:58:54:24 Speaker 2 I very much just work by myself on illustration projects. So doing that was a bit more of a collaborative element to it. But at the same time it was, you know, the fact that we did do so much of it ourselves, but but we could have done it if we hadn't had such generosity from people who really 00:58:54:24 - 00:59:09:24 Speaker 2 , really knew that shit and were not very comfortable with accepting that. I didn't have a clue. I was talking about with those who would very kindly guide me through it, be very patient and and is like, this is the bit where you say action, you know. 00:59:11:20 - 00:59:23:08 Speaker 2 But coming out of it, I came out the other side being okay, actually, I could have really done so much more with it. I could have doubled down on that and even more confident and in what I thought I could achieve with it. 00:59:23:08 - 00:59:27:09 Speaker 2 And I know the parameters so much better now so far. 00:59:27:10 - 00:59:29:03 Speaker 1 Do you think this is something you pursue further? 00:59:29:07 - 00:59:44:04 Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, fast forward to now we've got we're making several videos together now, Johanna and I, we're working on some for working on one right now for the what will be the first song for her from her next record. 00:59:44:04 - 00:59:48:24 Speaker 2 So I'm assuming I don't know if I'm supposed to be talking about the stuff, but I see my can. 00:59:49:07 - 00:59:52:02 Speaker 1 But I think that's vague enough to say, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:59:52:07 - 01:00:05:04 Speaker 2 So that's what I'm going to be announcing anyway, because I'm going to be putting out a casting call for anyone who wants to be on the video to just show up and be in the video. So yeah, on the last video it was literally three people in the video. 01:00:05:04 - 01:00:19:06 Speaker 2 And this one's going to be we've got a cast of about ten people and then we're going have tons of extras in it too, which is kind of daunting because I was nervous about show in action and in front of three people, but I have to do it for real now. 01:00:19:09 - 01:00:20:06 Speaker 1 But yeah, yeah. 01:00:20:18 - 01:00:21:01 Speaker 2 Yeah. 01:00:21:07 - 01:00:30:19 Speaker 1 That's great, man. That's really cool. I'd say kind of to find another area of kind of creativity where you can sort of actually kind of quite quickly feel quite comfortable, it sounds like. 01:00:30:19 - 01:00:46:19 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. And then I also think, as you were saying, that all of those things are kind of interchangeable in their own way. Like I think of it as when I was my. Music. I kind of made it in the same way as I make making film. 01:00:46:19 - 01:00:57:06 Speaker 2 I kind of do it the same way as I did both those things. And you could very easily find some three lines in there that would let them go together and be like, Wait a minute, I see. I understand your method. 01:00:57:06 - 01:01:01:12 Speaker 2 See, how you doing? Those same tricks but in a different medium that definitely interesting. 01:01:01:12 - 01:01:08:16 Speaker 1 I was about to ask you that very same thing if you know, if you saw kind of parallels between. Yeah. Between the way that you draw and the filmmaking. 01:01:08:16 - 01:01:24:06 Speaker 2 And I think I think it comes more from it comes more from reference points of things. So growing up, I was into art, but I was super into movies. And if you if you might be to pick, you could probably pick something out in a poster, design a time where it's and no one would ever know it 01:01:24:06 - 01:01:34:18 Speaker 2 . But I would know that if I was challenged and it's like, where did you get this image from or where did this idea come from to be like, Oh, well, you know, I've been to a to where this thing happens. 01:01:35:01 - 01:01:51:18 Speaker 2 That is, you know, like actually in most of my illustration work, it's nearly always is way more inspired by movies than it is by paintings and art and tourism. Okay. I think I'm pretty sure I just find it time and time again where I realize, Oh no, this is actually just something I've seen in a movie or 01:01:51:18 - 01:02:08:03 Speaker 2 some visual or like the way that like, even though it sounds this is this. I'm super pretentious but is true is that those things in my illustrations the way I liked the things as in like I put like a bright color behind a dark color, for example. 01:02:08:06 - 01:02:16:24 Speaker 2 And I think, see, I think of it in terms of lighting, I think of it in terms of filmmaking. So I'm like, put the subject here, I'm going to back to here, I'm going to do this. That's from reading books about Ridley Scott. 01:02:16:24 - 01:02:27:08 Speaker 2 And, you know, that's the shit that I was in when I was

in art college. Even though I was studying illustration, I was also seeing film and I was reading books about David Lynch and Ridley Scott and George Lucas and all these things. 01:02:27:08 - 01:02:42:14 Speaker 2 And then in the drawings, I would I would be like, I want to have a life by here. And I like coming in here. And then I have these certain things flow through the image which are inspired by those filmmakers that I really like and the way those films look or the reference points that I'm bringing to 01:02:42:14 - 01:02:57:01 Speaker 2 people and saying, Oh, well, you know, this one bit in this movie, they're all like just movies I grew up with at the same time as anyone who makes movies does it, you know, it's like it's what makes film stuff that you're excited by that inspires you and you bring it and put it theory around weird little 01:02:57:19 - 01:03:04:23 Speaker 2 kaleidoscope and spirit out into the world. But it comes from yeah, the inspiration comes from very much from the same source. 01:03:16:02 - 01:03:26:09 Speaker 1 Kind of final question, really. Is there any sort of creative ambitions? You know, like you said, like the filmmaking was something that you kind of been thinking of for a while. Yeah. Is there anything else like that beyond filmmaking? 01:03:27:12 - 01:03:42:20 Speaker 2 Waiting to explore? Yeah. What I'd really love to do is actually make some sort of like some sort of film. Like a narrative film or a short film, I guess is so it's so easy to be put off doing something like that. 01:03:42:20 - 01:03:59:13 Speaker 2 It's very easy to be intimidated by it because there are so many. Even even, you know, I grew up in the eighties and I'm very set in those ways of thinking about film in that way. And things have come on so far since then with technology and the way people make films and young filmmakers out there making 01:03:59:13 - 01:04:12:08 Speaker 2 incredible things that just look stunningly beautiful. And it would be very easy for me to just step away from them, be like, I've missed the boat, you know? I should've been studying film seriously from this day, you know, since I left school or whatever. 01:04:13:04 - 01:04:33:00 Speaker 2 But I think in the end, I know, I know that I have been studying in my way and I know about it and I know what I'd like to see. And I see a lot of film out there that I don't find exciting and inspiring and or just more like a gap. 01:04:33:01 - 01:04:47:05 Speaker 2 So I would like to see certain things which don't seem to exist, and I'd like to kind of have a shot at making them and. And I have tons of ideas so I think is a cool stepping stone. 01:04:47:15 - 01:05:00:09 Speaker 2 Like a year ago or two years ago, I wouldn't have known that I could direct a music video, you know, and do all of those things and make doing it. It was such an intense crash course of learning to do every part of the process, which is really cool. 01:05:00:09 - 01:05:19:15

Speaker 2 And then this time we're making a series of videos and they're all completely different. So the first one is going to be a lot of characters, really bold and bright and colorful and vibrant and fast moving. And then we've got another which we're going to film actually on 60 mil film, which is a whole other challenge and 01:05:19:18 - 01:05:36:13 Speaker 2 just to make things really difficult. But it's going to be this really lavish, romantic fun of a totally different feel. And then we're going to do another one, which is going to be filmed on probably on an iPhone, which is going to just be like super, just like super raw as lo fi as it goes, but with 01:05:36:13 - 01:05:56:11 Speaker 2 some cool ideas. And so three completely different feels to two pieces, which is, you know, a really cool challenge. But also in terms of continuing that crash course of learning, working with your eyes is amazing. So we have kind of complementary skill set, very, very different skill set. 01:05:56:12 - 01:06:15:06 Speaker 2 So working together is proving to be really exciting. So for me, it's making these next few pieces and I feel like at the end of that I've been be in pretty good shape to. Think about planning. Planning something, I think. 01:06:15:07 - 01:06:30:09 Speaker 2 Why not? Life's too short to too. To be put off doing these things. And so, yeah, some sort of some sort of short film would be my ideal scenario. I've got, I've got a few concepts and things in mind that are awesome that I would like to pursue. 01:06:30:09 - 01:06:40:07 Speaker 2 So yeah, that's my. But at the same time still making posters, making artwork over in the background. Yeah. You just got to, got to do it. And that's always. 01:06:40:07 - 01:06:52:22 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's great. I mean it's, it's good, it's great to see sort of being able to throw yourself some kind of velocity into that and then you kind of area of expression. And I might say I think there are you know, there are films that aren't being made right now. 01:06:52:23 - 01:07:05:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, there's when you look around, there is this kind of gaps and especially, you know, it's currency. Back to you saying you found film so inspiring when you were young. You know, if those films aren't getting made now, what's inspiring those people? 01:07:06:01 - 01:07:11:19 Speaker 1 So yeah, you know, maybe you can kind of feel like Affan, the next generation of Ritchie Beckett are going to be inspired by what you made. 01:07:13:06 - 01:07:13:15 Speaker 2 Yeah. 01:07:14:01 - 01:07:17:13 Speaker 1 Well, thank you so much, man. I really appreciate you taking the time to go live once again. 01:07:17:13 - 01:07:28:20 Speaker 2 It's been an absolute pleasure and really cool to reconnect with you and it's been so great. It seems crazy that it's been so long, but how cool at the same time to then just pick it up, right? Literally ten years later. 01:07:28:20 - 01:07:29:08 Speaker 2 It's insane. 01:07:29:24 - 01:07:34:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Baffles my mental to think of it. How long is it. Was about that. 01:07:34:05 - 01:07:39:23 Speaker 2 Long. Yeah. And it makes me even more excited. The fact that we worked together all that time ago is just like, yeah, you. Of course we did. 01:07:40:09 - 01:07:51:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, that was like. That was like the start of my career, really. Like, that was like, I think, you know, that was one of the first music videos I have worked on. Yeah, but you know what you were saying earlier, the the people asking what programs you use. 01:07:52:14 - 01:07:59:01 Speaker 1 I got the exact same thing from from that video. People are like, Oh yeah, what plug ins do you use for that effect? I was like, I fucking drift away. 01:07:59:01 - 01:08:18:14 Speaker 2 Wow. Yes, it's auto and the just press, the scope that exists now for sure. But I'd like to think that anyone would know. Yeah, but it happened if. If that had happened at the time and if you had to stick the rotoscoped filter on it, you wouldn't have got all of that craziness going on. 01:08:18:14 - 01:08:37:01 Speaker 2 You know, I can tell watching it, I can imagine your process would be like you start to draw these weird shapes and it starts to get bit demonic and probably moments of your own boredom of being like, I've already drawn this fucking guitar a hundred times, and then you just start to see like, fuck this and just 01:08:37:11 - 01:08:50:21 Speaker 2 trust and just like kind of, you know, creature and which is what this whole deal is about, you know? And that wouldn't have happened if you just had that rotoscope button, you know? Yeah, you're right. I feel there was a real organic element. 01:08:50:22 - 01:08:59:01 Speaker 2 I am assuming too, that video. I feel like there was a certain amount you knew where it was heading and then some parts of it you were just just took it. Some. 01:08:59:05 - 01:09:26:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. Just reacting to was just random in front of you throwing parts. So that was Ritchie. So great to catch up with him again. It's been a long time since we properly spoke. I think one of the things about social media is that it can make you feel like you're still in touch with a person, even when 01:09:26:01 - 01:09:37:20 Speaker 1 you're not communicating directly. But then as what he said, you can I can kind of just jump straight back into a relationship and have a wonderful conversation. So I'm really, really grateful for Ritchie for taking the time to have that conversation with me. 01:09:38:03 - 01:09:51:07 Speaker 1 I really appreciate it. Very interesting to learn about his process and the way he views his work and in some ways come out to be wrong and to have my assumptions about his process challenged. Although I kind of still stand by what I saw. 01:09:52:02 - 01:10:09:12 Speaker 1 I think I just interpreted or perhaps articulated it a little bit wrongly. But that precision,

the kind of lack of hesitancy in his mark making, is absolutely there. But where I compared it to a plant, mechanical precision, I think it's actually being guided by something else. 01:10:09:12 - 01:10:27:24 Speaker 1 It's not mechanical at all. It's being guided by his creative instincts. So that moment by moment, he knows exactly where the pen needs to go. Yeah. Either way, it's enchanting to watch. The other thing I wanted to pick up on was something we mentioned about taste and about creative people being dissatisfied with their own work. 01:10:28:05 - 01:10:40:21 Speaker 1 Kind of only seeing the flaws that most of the time only they know are actually there now. That really give a lot of advice on this podcast. I don't really see it as my role here, but this is something I'm pretty confident on. 01:10:41:04 - 01:10:56:10 Speaker 1 So I've been around the creative industry for a long time. I've lectured, I lead a team of creative. So this is something I feel like I'm on steady ground. I know what I'm talking about. If you're a creative person and you're frustrated with your work because you feel like there's a gap between what you see in your 01:10:56:10 - 01:11:08:23 Speaker 1 head and what comes out on the page or the screen or whatever. First off, you're not alone. Everybody feels like that. And I think the reason is that part of what drives you and makes you want to create is a love of the medium. 01:11:09:05 - 01:11:23:01 Speaker 1 So you develop this really discerning taste, this really keen appreciation of what's well-crafted and what's well done. And when you apply that taste to your own work, you see all the things that didn't quite go the way that you expected. 01:11:23:10 - 01:11:34:09 Speaker 1 And that's where you get this kind of disconnect in the sense of dissatisfaction. If any of this sounds familiar, my advice would be to just try to let go of those preconceptions that you have going into a project. 01:11:35:02 - 01:11:51:24 Speaker 1 Enjoy the process, get lost in the process, embrace the things that go wrong, and push you in different directions. Let the project be whatever it wants to be and when it's done, try to appreciate it for what it is, because when you can do that, it becomes something beyond the things that you've seen before. 01:11:52:00 - 01:12:05:15 Speaker 1 Beyond all of the references and things that you appreciate because it's got you in it. It's a copy of anyone else's work. It's something authentic and personal to you. And that's what's really special about making creative work. And that's beautiful. 01:12:07:15 - 01:12:29:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that resonates with some of you. Maybe not, but that's what I think anyway. Oh, I'll throw up some links, as always. Some of Richie's work, the Johanna Warren video he mentioned also tracked down the shape by fate video, which, as you can see, Richie in a different persona, if you like, jumping around 01:12:29:04 - 01:12:44:16 Speaker 1 like a crazy man with his guitar. As I mentioned, that was a really fun video to work on with the director, Adam Powell, who was really quite fundamental in the early stages of my career. So yeah, it's, it's, it's good to look back at that as it's good times and yeah, that's me. 01:12:45:13 - 01:12:45:23 Speaker 1 I'm out.