TRANSKRİPT 🔗
WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.320
I know from many spells at the bar at Gibson's that there is a lot of value in those martinis.
00:00:26.260 --> 00:00:31.359
Welcome to Dish From Chicago Magazine. I'm Amy Cavanaugh, Chicago magazine's dining editor.
00:00:31.420 --> 00:00:34.405
And I'm John Kessler, Chicago magazine's dining critic.
00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:52.780
And today we're following up on one of John's recent columns that got a lot of feedback. He recently wrote about some experiences in wine service around town, some good, some bad. And we're going to devote the whole show to an in-depth discussion of wine, how it succeeds, how it faills, and how the devil is in the details.
00:00:49.899 --> 00:01:04.584
We're going to have Maria Montero, who's the somm and manager for Gibson's and Hugo's, to help us answer some of these questions. Plus we're going to talk about the best things we've eaten lately, which includes a Mexican skate wing dish.
00:01:18.025 --> 00:01:31.209
For today's discussion, we've asked a local wine expert to join us. Maria Montero is a level-three sommelier and a manager for the Gibson's Restaurant Group at the flagship Gibson's and Hugo's next door.
00:01:27.609 --> 00:01:38.829
Since joining the company in 2025 she's been working on both the wine list and the wine service at both restaurants.
00:01:34.870 --> 00:02:01.674
Before joining Gibson's Group, she spent the last 10 years with Smoque BBQ, and in 2023 she was part of the opening team of Smoque Steak, where she held the title of purchasing and procurement manager. There, she collaborated with Mike McDermott, a Smoque Steak partner, to create a signature wine list for the restaurant, as well as a rotating list for the wine bar. Maria, can you tell us a little bit about your job at Gibson's today?
00:02:02.334 --> 00:02:04.435
Yeah, of course.
00:02:02.334 --> 00:02:11.979
Hi, Amy, thanks for having me on the podcast. As you mentioned, I am a restaurant manager for both Gibson's and Hugo's at our original flagship locations.
00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:34.284
Additionally, I am also the resident sommelier, so I am in charge of both wine education for the staff, including weekly pre-shift notes, as well as bi-weekly seminars that I'm currently hosting that include both lecture and guided tastings. And then throughout service, I'm also there to be on the floor, helping our servers, making wine recommendations for our customers.
00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:51.879
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here with us today. We are doing this podcast after John's recent column all about wine service, which definitely garnered a lot of feedback. So we are eager for an expert opinion. John, what is the first question you wanted to ask Maria?
00:02:52.259 --> 00:03:13.319
Yeah, hey there and Maria, it's nice to virtually meet you. So my first question, I brought up a few points in my column. I think for me, the most pressing question is, what is a wine pour? When I order a glass of wine at a restaurant, how much wine do I get? And specifically, how much wine do you pour at Gibsons?
00:03:13.539 --> 00:03:16.599
Yes, absolutely.
00:03:13.539 --> 00:03:30.759
So standard, you see between five and six. Gibson's, we're all about a heartier portion. If you've ever had a martini or a glass of wine with us, we yes pour a little bit more. But our standard across the board is 6 ounces for red, white and sparkling.
00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:32.740
Yay. That is so great.
00:03:32.740 --> 00:03:41.844
Yeah. And we're, you know, we're super aware of that. We try our best throughout service to make sure our bar staff is really just staying consistent with those pour sizes.
00:03:42.145 --> 00:03:48.745
Do you have any kind of marking on the glass or anything? Or do you use a little carafe? Or how do you just eyeball it?
00:03:48.925 --> 00:04:03.189
So for us, I mean, we do have bartenders who have been here for 20-plus years, so generally, they have a pretty good hand. However, we have a separate glass that has a marking, so they use that as their guide, like a little grenadine and water or something.
00:04:03.250 --> 00:04:10.689
So So John, I know you asked that question because it felt like you were seeing much smaller pores around town. Is that right?
00:04:11.680 --> 00:05:20.095
Oh, my God. All, it's like all over the place, the pours. And I just found that, I mean, I've been so tempted to bring a measuring cup with me, just to see what it would be. But I feel like particularly at a lot of smaller, more — how would I put it — more unusual, chef-driven restaurants with very particular kinds of cooking and natural wine lists, a lot of times I'm seeing what can't be more than a 4-ounce pour. It feels to me that, sure, I get that if you get a small pour, but it just isn't really enough to get you through one course and into the next. You know, I've always sort of liked it when I have traveled. I think, particularly in Europe, I've noticed, and particularly, I mean, I'll be honest, in cheaper restaurants like cafes in France, or trattorias in Italy, or something, you'll get, you know, very specifically, be told you're getting a quarter bottle of wine with your with your pour. But yeah, it seems like anywhere from four to six is what I'm seeing here.
00:05:20.095 --> 00:05:28.074
And does it feel like the prices are kind of being charged for what would be a 6-ounce pour, or are you seeing like the prices maybe a little reduced?
00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:41.500
Yeah, no, the prices definitely seems to be like a glass of wine seems, if you multiply that by four, that's the price of the bottle.
00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:53.245
That seems to be particularly true. And I understand that if you're getting a quarter bottle of wine, but I, you know, I also get that, you know, when you open a bottle of wine, there's going to be some waste. And I'm wondering if Maria can talk to that.
00:05:52.779 --> 00:05:55.829
Yeah, of course.
00:05:52.779 -->
Load full transcript
00:06:17.742
So, like you mentioned, there is an inherent risk, right? So from the time we open that bottle, you really only — depending on if it's red or white or sparkling — have a couple of days. You know, restaurants, we do our best to use things like Vacu Vin. I've seen refrigeration. Some places go as far as Coravins, different methods. But realistically, at the end of the day, it's wine.
00:06:16.024 --> 00:06:37.040
And just for listeners who don't know what a Vacu Vin or Coravin It only has so much time. So with that, we have to make sure we are covering our cost at first or second pour. So that's usually, where you see the pricing kind of come out of is, what is that my price, my cost when I'm receiving them and making sure that I'm making those margins within that one or two pour.
00:06:41.629 --> 00:06:47.689
is, can you just explain a little bit how how they work and how they keep wine from spoiling faster?
00:06:47.720 --> 00:07:19.564
Yeah, of course. So the Vacu Vin, that's a lot more common, you'll see that. So it really just is a pump that is removing as much oxygen as possible. The Coravin is definitely sleeker, definitely more, I would say, like premium version of preservation for wine. So that's actually using a hypodermic needle that goes through the cork, and you are replacing that empty space with argon gas. And so that is going to keep that wine comparatively so much fresher. You know, they say you can get a couple of weeks to it.
00:07:16.204 --> 00:07:21.605
I've seen some bottles go a month, maybe two with Coravin.
00:07:21.605 --> 00:07:22.084
Dang.
00:07:22.084 --> 00:07:24.485
I love it at home when I'm doing tastings.
00:07:24.779 --> 00:07:34.800
Yeah my brother gave me, gave me one, and it comes with these little capsules of gas that you, you know, you screw onto it and everything.
00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:46.019
And it was, it was a lovely thing. And if I drank the kind of wine my brother does, I would use it. But I mean, the wine we're drinking at home — usually, if we're opening the bottle, we're killing it.
00:07:46.019 --> 00:07:46.980
No judgment there.
00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:20.485
I feel like I, when I talk to a lot of diners, or I dine out with folks who don't dine out as often. They seem very uncomfortable picking out wines. That's, you know, whether it's the menu isn't clear enough for them to understand, or, you know, they know one varietal and well, I'm going to get that, because it's just, we're just going to default to that. What are some ways that you can help guide a diner toward a glass of wine that works for them?
00:08:20.660 --> 00:08:47.585
I remember, you know, when I was first experiencing wine, I was definitely of the camp that the second least expensive class on the menu was what I was I was picking. So now that I've maybe changed a little bit, things are different. What I love to do when I approach the table is, I never want to sound like a walking tech sheet, right? So tech sheets, these
technical sheets that you receive from wineries give you the bricks.
00:08:43.759 --> 00:09:08.149
Give you when it were ripening, fermentation. Our customers don't need that, right? I need to be able to tell them, let's find something that is either comparable to what you enjoy or— if you're looking for something new — let me have a conversation with you about the food you're looking to eat, or do you have a celebration of some sort? So it's just a conversation. I keep it candid.
00:09:08.629 --> 00:09:24.710
I think people are really scared of the title sommelier, and so our servers will often offer for me to come to the table. And I would say five times out of 10, they're like, Oh no, no, that's okay. We we don't need a somm.
00:09:19.909 --> 00:09:29.629
Because they're scared. So I like to go in as approachable as possible. There's no reason for it to be unrelatable.
00:09:29.690 --> 00:09:46.654
Totally. And, you know, I really love when I can't decide, and a somm will bring over, like a couple tastings. I can pick the one that really fits for me. But sometimes, you know, I order something, and then here comes the full glass already poured. Here you go.
00:09:43.595 --> 00:09:49.414
It's down in front of me. What if I don't like it at that point, but I already have the full glass?
00:09:49.835 --> 00:09:52.595
You know what?
00:09:49.835 --> 00:10:09.679
Send it back. I so, I am of the belief, and we are here, if you don't love something, you shouldn't be stuck with it, like don't feel committed to that wine by the glass. So I an lways up for doing tastings beforehand. Let's see a right fit. But even then, sometimes you get into the glass and you ultimately decide that's not the
00:10:08.940 --> 00:10:09.860
Yeah, I think that's such good advice, and I one.
00:10:11.618 --> 00:11:02.690
do really appreciate it when a restaurant will offer you a spending their to feel like they're getting taste of, you know, they'll bring the bottle to the table and offer you a taste of the wine. I love that, because a lot of times, you know, I just don't know. I say, I know I like Beaujolais, but I don't know — there could be a lot of variety in Beaujolais. I don't know quite what this particular Beaujolais is going to be like, or what temperature you're going to serve it at. So, you know, I love it when I can try a couple of tastes. On the other hand, it can be hard too, when, like, the timing of wine service is so important. When, you know, I was at a wonderful steakhouse, Tre Dita, a couple of weeks ago, and when the steak came, they're like, just beforehand, they said, Do you want a glass of wine with this? And I was like, Sure, Give me, give me a moment.
00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:27.554
Let me just try the food. And anyhow, it ended up taking way too long. They, it took them a while to bring the glass so that I could have a taste. And the waiter had to go fish the bottle out and bring it over. And from the time I'd asked until I was actually poured a taste of the wine, it had been longer than 10 minutes. And I was like, at that point, thinking, yeah, maybe I shouldn't drink so much. But it that value. So I'm all about taking care of them.
00:11:25.427 --> 00:11:32.095
is great to get a taste. And I will double down and say, I think if you don't like anything, just let them know.
00:11:32.154 --> 00:11:41.678
It's their policy, whether they, you know, will choose to replace it or not. But I think, like with cocktails, food, wine, if at Gibson's. I dined there recently, you don't like it, just be honest.
00:12:13.110 --> 00:12:14.429
changes?
00:13:03.529 --> 00:13:40.534
So I do spend a fair amount of my week over at Hugo's. We have an awesome happy hour. So it's Sunday through Thursday, half price bottles of wine. And so I'm all about, what can we do that's seafood-friendly, that's going to go well with our oysters? So I'm looking at a lot of like, beautiful, crisp white wines like Muscadet or Savennières, something that's really light and approachable.
00:13:37.774 --> 00:13:49.100
You know, we're hopefully going into patio season soon, pending Chicago's weather, and so looking at something that's going to be really refreshing and kind of just like enjoyable on the patio too.
00:13:49.399 --> 00:14:08.480
How do the customers there, like, you know, if you're pouring a Savennières or something, or you're suggesting it, do you, you know, is it hard if somebody is just more experienced with, you know, Chardonnay or Sauvignon Blanc, is it hard to turn them on to a Chenin Blanc? Or, how do you sort of educate people over a glass of wine?
00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:46.129
What I found is I've got the perfect mix of both our locals that come in three times a week, who know what they like. And it's probably going to be the Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand, and that's okay. But I also have people that are coming to happy hour for the first time, and they seem interested and excited at trying newer models. So that's where I love to, kind of like step in. I will have that conversation with them, and I'll kind of, that's where I want to get into, Look at this new set of offerings we've got. I think they'd be cool for you to check out. And it also kind of makes them repeat customers too, because they'll come back for another happy hour to check the rest of the new list.
00:14:46.250 --> 00:14:56.914
So Maria, it's been great having you on. I really am learning a lot. And one more question I have for you, which is something that I addressed in that column I
00:14:56.914 --> 00:15:43.639
I find that a lot of big, beautiful, impressive wine lists offer, you know, a few nice things on the lower end, and a whole lot of big, expensive Burgundy, Bordeaux, Napa cab on the high end. But I want to be talked into spending like, $125 on a bottle, and I want to try something, and that's what is always so fun for me, when I can go to a restaurant that has a wine list that just has that sweet spot in the middle, and I'm
wondering if that's anything you've noticed as a problem at any wine lists around town, or—
00:15:43.000 --> 00:16:44.620
Oh, for sure. So I also love that sweet spot:$100 to $150 is usually where I want to go. To have those$500-plus bottles, they're great, but truthfully, candidly, I'd rather just have that bottle at home or bring it in and maybe pay the corkage. So for me, I am looking at, you know, as a wine buyer, it's so easy to default to those approachable, value-based wines that are 95 and less, and to go with the Château Margaux, to go with Screaming Eagles, because they, they're flashy. So as a wine buyer, it just takes a little bit more effort, right? You talk to your reps, you see the newer, smaller producers. You're maybe looking at different areas of the world. So you know, let's try Chardonnay from Chile instead of Napa or Sonoma. Let's just try different areas that have really great expression for these varietals, but right now they're not commanding quite that same price tag.
00:16:45.038 --> 00:16:55.058
Maria, as diners are heading out and looking to order a glass of wine. Do you have any tips for them to keep in mind if they're ordering a wine by the glass or wine by the bottle?
00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:58.059
Yeah, of course.
00:16:55.000 --> 00:17:00.879
So when I'm sitting down and I'm trying to recommend something, what are we going to eat? Right?
00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:31.644
So let's recommend, if we're doing something like a salmon or a filet, let's do a lighter bodied red wine. So we're looking Pinot Noir, right? That helps you narrow it down. And then whether or not you like fruit forward versus a little bit more earth will let us know if we're going New World, Old World. And then, honestly, take the tastings. Like, take the samples, ask the questions from either your bartender, your server, or your somm, and any good hospitality worker will be more than happy to pour those for you.
00:17:31.765 --> 00:17:47.049
I would add something to that, which is — I think that's great — but one thing to add is: Ask for a tasting. Because a lot of restaurants, I've noticed, will very happily just bring you a pour of the wine if you sound resolute. But if you're not sure, and you ask for a tasting, they'll say, of course.
00:17:47.049 --> 00:17:49.869
100% Ask the question. It never hurts to ask, right?
00:17:49.869 --> 00:17:54.190
Never hurts to ask. You know, you may not like the answer, but then you may not like the restaurant.
00:17:55.390 --> 00:17:55.930
There you go.
00:18:07.015 --> 00:18:08.755
John, what's the best thing you ate lately?
00:18:09.380 --> 00:19:00.529
I know you and I have talked about this recently, but isn't like fried fish having a moment on Chicago restaurant menus? I am seeing it everywhere, and I am here for fried fish. And I think some of the best I've had lately was at Frontera Grill where, yes, they too, and it's not a fish in a preparation that I've ever quite had before. They do a breaded and deep-fried skate wing there, New England skate wing, with an avocado tomatilla salsa, and just all sorts of Napa cabbage, sliced avocado and tomato on the plate, some really nice, spicy pickled red onions, black beans, a bunch of tortillas. It's enough for like three people, and it's delicious. It's from Frontera's great chef de cuisine Javauneeka Jacobs.
00:19:00.529 --> 00:19:03.109
That sounds awesome. Maria, how about you?
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:09.420
When I first moved to Chicago, I lived in Uptown for the first two years.
00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:18.359
Loved it. I spent probably every weekend up on Argyle. And so my favorite place, consistently is the bún bò huê from Nhà Hàng.
00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:33.825
It's on Argyle, just a little bit past Broadway past, kind of the better known pha places. I love it. It's consistent every time. I love the lemon grass, how spicy it is. It's an awesome balance of that and then that umami funk from the fermented shrimp paste. So good.
00:19:34.365 --> 00:19:34.964
Yum.
00:19:35.025 --> 00:19:37.484
Gotta try that.
00:19:35.025 --> 00:19:37.964
That sounds great. I love bún bò huê, too .
00:19:37.964 --> 00:19:38.505
So good.
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:42.079
Wow. So that sounds great. How about you Amy, what's the best thing you've had?
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:48.500
So I finally got to Noodles Party, which was on your Best New Restaurants list.
00:19:44.660 --> 00:20:51.529
Holy cow. Is that place fun. Oh my god. I went at noon on a Wednesday, and we got the last three seats, like, just like, perched like, right at the end of the table on this little stool, and there are so many things to get. Like, the whole menu looked fantastic. So there were three of us. So I asked our server, like, all right, what would you get for three and she said that her favorite dish was the duck soup. We loved everything, but the duck soup was just clearly the best thing there. The noodles are beautiful. The duck meat was just delicious, but the broth, the broth was just like, so rich, so flavorful. The kind of thing where, you know, if I get a spring cold in the next, coming weeks, like I am going back to Noodles Party for this duck soup, because I feel like this would, you know, cure any ails. Absolutely delicious. The menu changes quite a lot, but it sounded like this was maybe one of their more staple dishes. So if you're going to Noodles Party, definitely recommend getting the duck soup.
00:20:51.529 --> 00:21:12.500
Thanks for joining us for this episode of Dish From Chicago Magazine. Your hosts are dining editor Amy Cavanaugh and critic John Kessler, editing by Sarah Steimer and music by Bill Harris. You can find us online at chicagomag.com. Please be sure to follow, rate, and review us wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you next time.