Will AI Replace Surgeons? | Prof. Shafi Ahmed on Beyond the Scalpel with Dr. Alrashid bölümünün tam dökümü

with people. 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:28.639 And surgery was just part and parcel of that. 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:30.240 So I became a cancer specialist. 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:37.759 And even in colorectal disease or specialty, in the TJ Hospital I was working at the Royal London, we're super specialized. 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:41.439 So, for example, in our department, there were some that specialized in anal cancer. 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:46.319 I was a colorectal cancer specialist with functional bio disorders and proctology. 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:51.279 Even in our specialty, we were super specialized quite early on, uh, almost 20 years ago. 00:04:51.519 --> 00:05:00.240 So that's what I've been doing for the last 35 years, although latterly I've gone part-time the last several eight years to do other things that I'm sure we discuss in this in this uh podcast. 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:00.959 Awesome. 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:25.920 And just for our audience based in the US who are not familiar with the NHS or the National Health Service, which where most of the doctors in in the UK work in, tell us some of the sort of the the the nuances and some of the sort of the the importance of working in a system where access to care is free, particularly for uh, you know, a group of patients who've been often you know been given the worst news of their life. 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:35.920 They're suffering from cancer, and to be able to get access to the best care in the world and to have access to best surgeons without having to fork out thousands and millions of dollars. 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:37.600 Just give us a little bit of an insight there. 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:41.839 Yes, I I th I am very proud of the NHS as an organization. 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:48.480 I think it's the third largest employer uh after the Chinese Army and the Indian Railway along those lines. 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:51.439 So we employ over a million people in the NHS. 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:52.639 It's a free service. 00:05:52.800 --> 00:06:00.879 It was launched in 1948, after the Second World War, as part of the social mobility of the government and uh its population. 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:03.439 It's universal, it's free at the point of contact. 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:15.360 So as you enter the healthcare system, whether you're seeing primary care position or secondary care, it's all free, based on taxation, of course, and it allows everyone to get access regardless whether they can afford it or not. 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:28.000 So I think in terms of the Commonwealth Index of healthcare systems, it ranks usually number one and number two because of the fact that it's good quality across the country, and of course it's free at the point of access. 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:30.160 So from that perspective, it's a lovely organization. 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:31.439 However, it has its voibles. 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:33.040 It's not perfect, of course it's not, right? 00:06:33.120

--> 00:06:34.240 It has its difficulties. 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:42.639 We have a budget of about 200 billion around that figure uh for the entire NHS system to work, and of course, it's never enough. 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:44.160 We struggle like anybody else. 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:49.519 We struggle with waiting lists, uh, we struggle with getting through people through uh through their treatment. 00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:59.040 In fact, even more recently, the last year or so, the waiting list has now reached about seven million people waiting for a surgical procedure or diagnostic, which is unsustainable. 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:02.720 So the concept of a free healthcare system works, of course. 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:09.839 It's valuable and it's one of the the kind of the cornerstone of the UK and it's it's jaw in the crown, if I'm honest with you. 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:18.240 However, lack of investment over decades, lack of direction, aspirations that happen every few years, and we're going through another transformation now, of course, it hasn't helped. 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:25.920 We now have a long-term plan in place, a long-term plan, 10-year plan, uh, which has set out three agendas for the National Health Service. 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:27.360 One, they make sense. 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:31.839 The first one, of course, is going from care from secondary care to the community, the first one. 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:37.759 Second one is going from analog to digital, and third one is from sick care to prevention, things that we all kind of understand. 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:48.480 So there's an actual drive now to rearrange the healthcare system to make it more affordable, more accessible in the light of our disease profiles and population demographics. 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:49.920 It's a journey for all of us. 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:57.360 In fact, this morning I was at a private public partnership meeting talking about how does NHS cope in this new system, new world that we live in. 00:07:57.519 --> 00:07:58.800 How does it commercialise? 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:06.800 How does it use public partnership and private partnerships together to create a better healthcare system that's based on value-based outcomes? 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.439 So again, it's similar to every other healthcare system. 00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:10.800 We have our own problems. 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:15.600 But the fundamental good thing about it is that it's free for anybody who wishes to have access to it. 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:16.639 That's wonderful. 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:17.759 Very nicely put. 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:29.920 And and Shafi, one of the key hallmarks of your amazing career was incorporating technology as a surgeon while working within a system which has resource constraints. 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:38.320 Tell us a little bit about how you got involved with technology and how you felt that this was the way forward for surgeons to embrace. 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:44.399 So, yeah, my I guess as a surgeon, and you know this very well, as an orthopedic surgeon, surgeons love their toys, right? 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:49.360 And if you go to any orthopedic theater, there's 10 open boxes of different instruments lying around, right? 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:50.720 And every single case, right? 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.559 And every orthopedic surgeon has their own special interest uh of that area. 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:56.799 We're the s we're very similar in colorectal. 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:06.960 So when I was going through my training, we went from open surgery, huge cuts in the abdomen, um, what I call maximum invasive surgery in the old times, to laparoscopic. 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:09.600 And that happened during my training and my career. 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:18.639 A fundamental shift of bringing technology, laparoscopy, and all its equipment to create smaller scars, less pain, and hopefully better outcomes for our patients. 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:20.559 So that technology was driving change. 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:22.080 I was doing a lot of innovative work. 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:34.080 I I in fact set up the laparoscopic service at the Royal London Hospital from scratch to build our capability, the training, the infrastructure, and equipment to be able to deliver a laparoscopic surgery. 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:35.440 It was only 20 years ago, remember. 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:36.320 It wasn't that long ago. 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:41.759 As I was doing that, I became well known for using different technology, trying out, testing out things. 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:46.960 And all the major companies like J and J Medtronic and the others would come to me saying, look, we've got this new idea, what do you think? 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:49.919 And we'd fast track it and try it, test out some of this equipment. 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:58.320 It took me to various places in the US, including Cincinnati, in France, in Marseille, to the headquarters, to look at different equipments, new equipment, design new things with them. 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:01.600 So I've always been interested in technology from a long time ago. 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:20.480 And then I did the kind of first single port surgery back in around 2010 or so, using very single port through one hole through umbilicus doing the entire operation and colectomies through one small hole, for example, pushing the boundaries of what was possible, but in a safe manner, an ethical manner that was measured and we did clinical trials around that. 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:25.519 And then what happened around 2014 was suddenly technology became available. 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:28.080 So I'm an educationalist, first and foremost. 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:32.720 I think I teach, that's what I like to be known for, as well as being a surgeon. 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:37.519 And I used to be at the associate dean of medical school at uh

Barts and London for about 10 years. 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:41.759 Ran the undergraduate program for surgeons, both year three, year four, and year five. 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:45.919 And I ran the entire curriculum for all clinical years for about ten years. 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:48.720 And I used to look after about 2,000 students per year. 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:56.480 During that time, teaching, during the time of teaching, I realized that we were getting a stage where we weren't training people with the right skill set. 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:57.759 And I say that openly. 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:03.039 And I will say openly now the medical schools today are still not fit for purpose. 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:07.919 They don't satisfy what we need to do with medical students to create the doctor of tomorrow today. 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:09.840 We teach ancient ways of thinking. 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:11.840 We are very slow to adopt change. 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:14.480 Medical schools themselves are resistant to change. 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:20.000 The world has moved on, yet we still teach old-fashioned ideas and models of care which need to be disrupted. 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:24.080 And I guess I became a disruptor, or perhaps I was always a disruptor, I don't know. 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:27.039 And so I remember thinking, how do I teach surgeons differently? 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:28.879 And here was my dilemma, I mean. 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:34.399 In the OR, we have medical students that come to our theatre every day, you have a team, a group of them that come along. 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:35.840 Medical school is getting bigger and bigger. 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.840 We started with two, three hundred students, now four, four, fifty, five hundred students in a year. 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:41.279 So huge numbers. 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:47.200 They'd come to the operating theatre, and again, they go from two to three to four to five to six, increasing numbers all the time. 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:50.240 And so I used to think, what is the experience of those medical students? 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:51.679 I put myself in their shoes. 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:57.840 If I'm coming to the operating theatre to see Professor Shafi Ahmed, I've been allocated his theatre, uh, he's going to do collectomy, right? 00:11:57.919 --> 00:11:58.799 You might have eight students. 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:03.440 None of them will get scrubbed, because obviously you've got your own team and you're scrubbed up. 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:10.720 Maybe one gets the opportunity to come and scrub, the others will be in the back of the room, being ignored for eight, nine, ten hours with little engagement. 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:13.519 And I thought, why would anybody do this? 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:15.200 Why would anyone want to study medicine? 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:28.159 Why would anyone become a surgeon if all you're getting is spending time in theatre being disengaged and being ignored largely because the operation is going ahead, occasionally being asked a question, for example, in the whole day. 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:30.639 It made no sense to me that we could do better than that. 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.600 So I used to do a lot of teaching around surgery, bring people in. 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:39.039 We used to have a separate room where I set up some teaching programs while the operation was going on, so everyone felt valued. 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:40.559 And then why would you pay? 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:42.159 People pay for the education, right? 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:44.799 People pay a lot of money to go to medical school. 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:46.960 So this didn't sit comfortably with me. 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:50.559 Then of course, 2014, Google Ass came out. 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:54.080 A technology that I thought could be really useful straight away. 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:57.200 It wasn't about the Google Ass, the smart technology of smart glasses. 00:12:57.360 --> 00:12:58.799 I thought about what's the utility? 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:00.399 Can I use this to train people? 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:05.519 And I've always had this mission to train people on a global level, to democratize education. 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:14.879 And so the Google Ass, when it came out, was the technology that enabled my theory and my practice to evolve because of technology. 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:18.799 And since then, last 10, 15 years, there's been so many technologies. 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:25.600 So I felt that was the inflection point for me, also for medical practice. 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:29.039 And since then now, what's happened in the moon, the language has changed. 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:30.879 And I talk about this all the time. 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:33.919 The language 10 years ago was very analog. 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:42.399 We're now talking about AI, deep machine learning, wearable technology, AR, VR, XR, the metaverse, D computing, quantum computing. 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:47.840 Talk about the G and fast networks, nanobiotechnology, genomic profiling. 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:51.440 These words did not exist in our vocabulary 10 years ago. 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:53.679 And actually, they don't exist in most people's language now, actually. 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:55.200 Still people are slow to adopt. 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:56.480 The words move rapidly. 00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:00.080 And I was on that crest of that wave, fortunately, at the right place at the right time. 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:00.879 That's all it is. 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:02.559 And I was thinking, how do I use this? 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:04.240 And I was using more and more technology. 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.480 I began to build companies, became entrepreneur. 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:12.799 So that was the kind of the cycle of events, and it became an avalanche from a small snowball into what you see

today. 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:13.679 That's amazing. 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:14.559 That's amazing. 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:25.600 And I think I was hearing that in 2014 when you were live streaming surgeries and we used your Google class to 14,000 students across 132 countries. 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:27.759 Tell us a little bit about that experience. 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:32.720 I mean, how was it for you as a surgeon doing a live surgery and being broadcasted like that? 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:39.919 Yeah, I can share a story with you because I did a podcast more recently and I had to drag it from my memory because it's now over 10 years ago. 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:41.200 So it's quite fresh to my mind. 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:43.519 The story of Google Glass is really fascinating. 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.279 Uh, and I'll share it with your audience. 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:56.720 In 2014, I managed to get hold of Google Glass um uh from one of the uh investors in Google uh from Silicon Valley Bank who has came into the UK. 00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:05.600 I actually managed to get it off him uh in a coffee shop uh in North London via eBay, who's selling the first one in the UK, right? 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.159 Because he he can find a utility for it, it just came out in the US. 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:11.840 Anyway, so we weren't allowed to have it in the UK because it wasn't uh allocated. 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.399 So we got it, looked at it, so what does it do? 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:16.159 Played around with it, it was fascinating. 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:18.320 I I walked around London with this Google Ass, right? 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:25.039 Before anybody else had one, I was getting the most crazy looks, but I just did it on the train, on the bus, walking to work, just playing around with it. 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:26.480 So, what can I do with this? 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:30.159 Um, then I gave it to a bunch of medical students and said, What do you think we could do this? 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:31.279 Could we stream it live? 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:36.320 And they kind of uh got together, a few amazing medical students um who were really tacky. 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:41.120 They came back and said, Yes, we fixed it, it works now, uh we can live stream it, and let's go and practice. 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:46.480 So within three days of that first thinking around live streaming, I did live operation. 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:50.320 It was a cancer operation, right home eclectomy, uh, to a global audience. 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:56.799 TV audiences were everywhere, TV cameras were in the in the theatre, covering the story because it was such a major transformation of teaching. 00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:06.559 My theory was this: if I can stream a live operation to thousands of people across the world, I can demonstrate that the technology can democratize surgical education or any education. 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:10.879 So my theory was always we talk about one-to-one teaching, and that's good. 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:14.000 One-to-one is very good, um, and it helps one person. 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:18.399 You can do one to two, or one to many, or we can do one to thousands. 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:22.879 What's stopping us from teaching 10,000 people as opposed to two people? 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:23.919 What's that stopping us? 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:24.639 What's the mentality? 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:25.519 No one done it before. 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:32.480 So we did this live operation to 40 and a half thousand people in 140 countries and 4,000 cities, right? 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:36.240 And we had incredible feedback from that. 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:41.200 It's the first time this technology was used in that manner for a wide-reach audience. 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:44.720 The feedback we got from students around the world was incredible. 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:46.320 They loved it, they enjoyed it. 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:48.879 The first time they could see the operation through my eyes. 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:51.840 Now imagine you're in the operating theatre, as mentioned before, at the back of the room. 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:52.720 You can't see anything. 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:53.519 You know that, right? 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:55.200 You can see very little of the operation. 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:58.399 Now you're seeing my point of view, what I'm doing, what I'm thinking of. 00:16:58.480 --> 00:16:59.840 And I could communicate with them. 00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:07.680 So I was literally teaching students because uh we were encouraging them to text a message on the app, which would come up in the glass as I was doing the operation. 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:12.799 So I could glance up, see the question, speak to them, and respond to the questions in real time. 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:20.079 So it became not just a live surgical stream, it became an interactive operation to tens of thousands of people across the world. 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:21.519 And that was a demonstration. 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:26.240 Obviously, we took a lot of risk uh there, but we mitigated the risk. 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:33.279 We had the legal team in, we had the medical team in, we had the uh ethical team to make sure that what we were doing was the right thing to do. 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:41.279 It wasn't just being a Maverick surgeon or being disruptive for the sheer reason of being disruptive, it was measured in a way that had value. 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:44.319 And after that, we got amazing feedback globally. 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:52.319 It was covered in much every newspaper around the world because people have found utility for this Google Earth, which was this kind of new device that came out. 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:53.519 But it was a good story. 00:17:53.759 --> 00:18:04.720 Google Glass was surrounded by bad stories of people recording people and being um quite disruptive for

a lot of people, and the privacy was an issue for a lot of people. 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:05.839 This was a good story. 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:08.000 And so that's how I think it went out. 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:11.359 And and I guess it's just about the mindset, thinking, can we do it differently? 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:12.400 Can I teach people in a different way? 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:14.319 Can I teach more people than I teach already? 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:17.440 And the technology just literally enabled that whole kind of mindset. 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.720 And so so what eventually happened with this Google Glass phase? 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:26.400 I know now Meta's come out with meta glasses, so and that's kind of being now the new new thing. 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:28.720 I just wanted to know the the story with Google. 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:31.359 So Google was too ahead of its games, too early. 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:32.640 The world wasn't ready for Google. 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:37.599 Google Ars was a fabulous device, really, one of the big best devices I've seen for a long time. 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:39.119 It was ten years ahead of its time. 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:40.480 Even now it's ahead of its time. 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:47.599 What it was capable of doing voice command, voice control, tap, control, playing music, searching social media, recording, pulling an instant. 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:53.599 Meta have now reproduced that, but in a frame, in a ray-band frame, so it's more acceptable. 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:55.200 Google Glass was abnormal. 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:59.039 It was literally a glass that with a little camera up here, so it looked abnormal. 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:01.920 New models are now embedded into a normal-looking glass. 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:03.119 That's been the change. 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:08.079 And so society has moved on, and we've had many iterations of different glasses. 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:09.039 I've had all of them, by the way. 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:10.559 I've tried every single glass that's come out. 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:14.960 In fact, the manufacturers send me them to test them out because of my reputation around glasses. 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:23.440 We went from those glasses, which we I guess we call augmented reality to a certain extent, with overlays of visual displays, to virtual reality. 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:27.759 We went from AR to VR in the space of a couple of years. 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:36.000 Because the story about VR was also interesting because uh Palmalaki uh created a Kickstarter for the Oculus Rift. 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:42.000 VR wasn't new, he brought a new headset, and computing power became available to use his headset. 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:43.839 So that was the optimum time. 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:58.319 He created this Kickstarter, which raised the most any Kickstarter ever raised, oversubscribed, and they sold to Meta for a couple of billion

a few years later, where Meta took it on and Markusuko became an evangelist for VR and the Metaverse. 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:00.000 So that's the transition. 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.240 Then there were many headsets that came out. 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.240 One every six months, Samsung. 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:07.920 You know, Google had their own one, Google Pixel, the Google cardboard. 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:09.519 Then we had uh Meta. 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:15.279 We've had we've had so many headsets, and then we've had things like Apple Vision Pro more recently, the HoloLens, Microsoft. 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:19.759 And each one of those has given promises to change the way we do things. 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:24.799 They've all failed fundamentally because of the fact that there's a friction of having a headset on your head. 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:25.920 It's not for everybody. 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:30.720 There's friction in how it works, how many times you have to click certain things, the navigation tools, etc. 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:32.000 It's not for everybody. 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:35.920 So it hasn't delivered what it promised all along. 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.400 For some of us, every year we say, hey, this is the next big year. 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:39.119 This is gonna happen. 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:41.519 Their metaverse, it's great, this is gonna be amazing with Meta. 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:43.680 Everything has changed and just hasn't evolved. 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:47.279 But it allowed me to do something different in 2016. 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:50.240 So remember, 2014 was a Google Us operation. 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:58.880 So when the virtual reality came out, obviously I was an early adopter, and we created a company called Medical Realities for educational purposes for VR training. 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:02.160 I then did the world's first virtual reality operation two years later. 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:12.400 What that meant was we placed a VR camera, which we created ourselves with a partnership with another company, housed in a 3D kind of plastic case. 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.400 And they were GoPro cameras, right? 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:17.200 And then, because there was no kind of VR camera. 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:18.640 And so we had to make it up. 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:20.160 We then recorded it. 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:24.000 We put the cameras into the OR just above the patient. 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:26.880 So as I was operating just above, they could get 360 view. 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.480 Uh and what we did, we got the hospital to buy some VR headsets, the Google cardboards. 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:34.640 We distributed 5,000 to every person in the hospital to take part in this operation. 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:37.200 Um, and we went live. 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:39.839 Again, it was a cancer surgery that I was operating on live. 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.559 Obviously, we took precaution about consenting the patient properly. 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:45.119 They were very happy that we were doing the right thing. 00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:48.880 And it's important to say the patients are so supportive of innovation. 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:54.640 I've been so overwhelmed by the generosity saying if I do this, are you going to be okay? 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:55.519 Of course we are. 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:58.640 If it's training people, more people, we'd love to help you. 00:21:58.799 --> 00:21:59.759 So that was. 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:08.559 Really kind of uh awe-inspiring for me and reassuring that we weren't doing something that was dangerous or risky or just because it's technology. 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:10.480 And we went live in 2016. 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:19.200 That operation went to 140 countries, 55,000 people in real time were in the VR headset watching the operation live as though they were next to me. 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:29.200 It was basically it was in every newspaper around the world, every news channel covered the story because the first time people use virtual reality for something, I guess, so profound. 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:35.599 And that was my second experimentation with sheer disruption, deep tech, using it for medical education. 00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:43.359 And so that that again gave me a kind of a global profile, I guess, um, from what I was trying to do and demonstrating. 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:45.519 But I mean when these all these things carry risk, of course. 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:54.799 You do these things you can um and I think very carefully about doing these uh while I was doing them, reflecting on the outcome, and then taking time out, thinking, have I done the right thing? 00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:55.839 What could I have done better? 00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:03.599 So I do a lot of um reflection after each of these kind of major disruptions, if you like, and saying, is it the right thing? 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.319 And preparing to stop abandoning if I don't think it's the right thing at all. 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:19.839 So that's the way to think about innovation in a way that does it have a good outcome, does it improve patient experience, does it improve educational experience for medical students or trainees, and is there good utility and could it be reproduced? 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.599 That's a question I ask myself all the time. 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:26.720 Otherwise it becomes just a one exercise just for sake of doing it, which isn't what I do. 00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:28.960 It's about sustaining these ideas long term. 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:34.240 So that was my kind of story around the the Google Us and then the virtual reality. 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:41.839 The next one was around Snapchat, which was a really I share a story with the audience because this was a really interesting story. 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:45.279 In 2017, chat came out with his own spectacles.

00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:46.880 It was called Spectacles, right? 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:54.640 There are these really funky glasses that you can record small clips of 10, 20 seconds, and that would go into your story on Snapchat. 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:56.799 Now, I didn't have Snapchat at the time, right? 00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:59.599 I mean, Snapchat is for young people generally, right? 00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:08.559 If you look at the users, there's about 200 to 300 million users, of which 70, I think 80% are between the ages of 18 and 25. 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:09.680 It's for young people. 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:17.519 So you may ask yourself the question: why would I, approaching kind of 50 years of age, think about using um Snapchat? 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:18.480 But here's the thing. 00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:21.119 Again, I put myself in the shoes of the medical students. 00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:22.880 Medical students were using Snapchat. 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:24.160 They were in the age group. 00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:26.480 That's how they correspond, that's how they communicate. 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:28.880 So why not communicate in language they understand? 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:32.720 Not how I teach for the last 50 years, but technology has moved forward. 00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:36.720 So I did the world's first operation on Snapchat, and this was a really funny story. 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:40.640 I thought I'd do a her new operation, simple operation that I do every day. 00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:50.799 But I had a camera, Snap Spectacles, my platform on Snap, my account, and I had uh a student just record the operation in in segments. 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:53.759 Before the operation, I divided into 20 clips. 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:56.000 These are the clips that had value for training. 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:02.480 As I was doing that part, they would click it, push onto my story, and add animation and emojis, whatever it was to make it more fun for people, right? 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:03.680 And I did it to 100 students. 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:05.279 I said, Would you mind joining my feed for? 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:06.640 Because I'm a bit worried about this. 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:11.519 This is social media, it's out there, there's a big risk here, and I wasn't prepared to take that risk live. 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:14.799 So I only invited 100 students from my medical students from Barts. 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:16.079 And I said, Tell me how it goes. 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:17.680 They engage with it, blah, blah. 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:19.359 Afterwards, it went really well. 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:20.319 Good engagement. 00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:24.000 It was the right conversation to have with that young group of people. 00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:26.319 And then it was captured in a story. 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:29.119 One of the uh guys I know uh said, Can I cover the story? 00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:29.839 He covered it. 00:25:30.000

--> 00:25:31.839 Before I know it, Time Magazine picked it up. 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:37.839 Uh, in fact, the Time Magazine, if I said the story on a Saturday night, uh, I was at home, I've got his random call, a fast one number from the US. 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.319 I've done the operation the day before on the Friday afternoon. 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:43.200 And I picked up the phone, so this is the editor of Time Magazine. 00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:44.240 I picked up your story. 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:45.680 Can I share the story with you? 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:48.799 I'm coming to the office on a Sunday morning, uh, for you only. 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:50.000 Be prepared to give the story. 00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:50.799 I said, sure, why not? 00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:55.119 So you came especially on Sunday morning, we captured the story, and then it went viral. 00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:58.000 It was covered in literally every newspaper around the world within the month. 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:06.640 It was that operation, her new operation, was watched by 56 million people around the world, uh sharing it, understanding it, and we did a lot of these operations using Snapchat. 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:11.920 And so that was that was a sequence of events that allowed me to think about how I train people differently. 00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:13.279 It's always thinking of differently. 00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:16.319 The last one I did was later that year was holograms. 00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:25.440 I thought, if you look at the story, telemedicine, Google Us, remote, watching it remotely on an app or on an iPad or computer was remote, but still you're getting trained. 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.079 VR was bringing the audience to you, okay, into your room. 00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:33.759 And then the kind of the um Snapchat was again more of different social elements. 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.200 So each one was just slightly different. 00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:39.039 The fourth one was what if I actually brought people really into bar play theatre? 00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:39.359 Right? 00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:40.799 So as holograms. 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:51.200 So I did the world's first hologram operation where three surgeons, meeting two others, one from the US, one from uh India, joined me as the avatars on holograms in my OR, discussing the case every time. 00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:51.839 Nice. 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:52.480 Yeah, yeah. 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:57.359 Three surgeons, three time zones, three continents, discussing an MDT case live in theater. 00:26:57.680 --> 00:26:58.240 That's awesome. 00:26:58.400 --> 00:26:58.960 That's awesome. 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:12.559 And I mean it seems at the core of your mission has been, as you said, I think uh democratize surgical training and you know, and increasing access and improving uh education. 00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:23.839 And uh do you feel that there are any limitations as a surgeon of of where AR, VR,

or the or the combo can uh deliver in terms of surgical education? 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:25.279 It's found its role. 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:26.880 It's struggled, if I'm honest with you. 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:31.599 Technology's been really good, but the utility and the use case has been limited. 00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:38.640 And so people have struggled in the last ten years in actually trying to find a reimbursement model that works for AR and VR. 00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:40.000 And that's why they've all struggled. 00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:41.680 And I think the word's moved on. 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:45.359 I think we're seeing more AR being used now for surgical navigation. 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:47.119 It's kind of it's come back again. 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:49.039 It disappeared, it's almost come back. 00:27:49.119 --> 00:28:03.839 And I've just seen now recently more companies, uh, and I've worked with a few of them who are now using these Apple Vision Pro and other devices in the OR to help navigate through an operation or help the team understand the operation and the process that's been taking place. 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:07.200 So we're now seeing the re-emergence of external reality. 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:13.920 Um for the audience, AR is metal reality, VR is virtual reality, in the middle is something called mixed reality. 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:17.200 All of that combined, doing the metaverse called external reality. 00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:18.799 That's not the words we use. 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:20.640 So I'm seeing um it come back. 00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:22.079 But again, it's limited. 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:23.920 It's not gonna be widespread or widely adopted. 00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:24.880 We've struggled with that. 00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:26.400 And the world has moved on to AI now. 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:28.079 So AI now is powering everything. 00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:35.839 Even XR is powered by AI, using avatars or chat GPT as a back end to be able to train people in those experiences. 00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:41.839 And we now built AI-powered XR, because that was the next evolution as AAI came in. 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:46.880 And so that's been the trajectory for 10 or 12 years, since 2014. 00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.920 And it's it's 12 years now, since I did that first operation. 00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:56.319 Yet the question for you, Mamoon, if I did that 12 years ago, it was thought to be disruptive and a good model of education. 00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:58.960 Why is not everybody using it at the moment 12 years later? 00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:00.160 It's a good question, right? 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:00.400 Yeah. 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:06.079 We like this utility, it showed value, people like the idea, people like the training remotely. 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:08.480 Even now we still struggle adopting these technologies. 00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:09.759 And that's the problem with medicine. 00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:20.160 It's

scaling and adopting these ideas that might be futuristic, but actually become more practical as the technology becomes less expensive and more readily available. 00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:32.799 So that's another kind of question we ask ourselves about how do we invoke change and how do we not resist the kind of the the way that the uh the world is being powered. 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:42.960 And that's been a talk I give all the time about how we disrupt for the good, also create a system where everyone else can benefit from those disruptions at fast pace. 00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:57.759 And I think on that spirit of of being a pioneer or a disruptor in this sort of medical education space where you're you're bringing in technology, I think it has also spurred an entrepreneurial drive in you, and you've co-founded many companies. 00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:03.200 Give us a little bit of a sense of how that has helped you really achieve some of those goals. 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:07.680 Yeah, I changed trajectory um about again, about 10 years ago. 00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:13.359 I started building companies, thinking, uh, and I've always been entrepreneurship uh from a quite young age. 00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:17.039 Um I built seven or eight different companies now in the deep tech space. 00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:30.880 We built, for example, the ARVR company, a metaverse company, we've been an AI company, we built an events company, I build events uh globally, we built a health agency in the US, one in Canada now, and we're building things all the time. 00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:34.319 All of those are different impacts that I have uh across the piece. 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:35.359 They all kind of connect. 00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:39.440 They provide me with a global network, and as you know, my moon, you've seen me on social media. 00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:57.519 I literally live on a plane, I've been traveling constantly the last 10 years, but in a quest to look at different healthcare systems, work with governments, work with NGOs, work in the most difficult areas of the world, the poorest areas, to understand what technology can provide people with and how we can transform healthcare globally for the better. 00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:02.880 The entrepreneurship has helped me understand how to build a company, how to fail. 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:04.319 I failed miserably many times. 00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:08.880 Don't worry, I'm uh the the best failure that there's there's ever been, but I've learned a lot from those failures. 00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:13.599 And I understand now how to take a company from scratch, build it, build a team, take it to exit. 00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:21.839 I know how to now invest, how to talk about this, and that's why I teach a lot of the business school around business thinking, business design, transformation, digital technologies. 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:23.759 I teach at three business schools globally. 00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:29.119

And it's taking healthcare workers on that journey that I've been on, a fast tracking them, if you like. 00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:31.200 And also now I have moved into investment. 00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:40.079 I'm now senior partner in a VC firm called Purpose Attack Capital, and we invest in early stage health tech startups across Europe, and uh we're also building out some private equity. 00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:53.599 So we've moved away, I'm still building, um, but now I'm moving to more investment side because that also has a great impact and helps me understand the whole continuum of startup SMEs and exiting, scaling, and what the investment cycle looks like. 00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:59.039 So, yeah, so I've taken that journey over the last 10, 12 years, and it wasn't by design. 00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:00.799 I never thought I would be in this position. 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:03.440 This wasn't part of my my kind of life plan. 00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:10.400 I was an academic surgeon at a teaching hospital, had a very successful career, if I'm honest with you, very happy with my career, but then everything changed. 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:12.960 I made choices about what I want to do with my life now. 00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:15.680 And to the audience, I think it's important to understand that. 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:19.119 What I've done now at the age of 50, remember, I had a full career of surgery. 00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:21.200 I reached every pinnacle that I needed to reach. 00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:24.640 I transitioned, thinking I've reached everything I needed to, what's next for me? 00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:25.519 Ask that question. 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:29.200 Introspective question to myself is what's the next five days look like? 00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:32.559 And my life is now around leaving impact and legacy. 00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:35.279 I have a lot of inbound offers, a lot of positions they offer me. 00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:45.200 And I only pick things now that give me, that leave an impact, leave a legacy, and I can use my time efficiently and give me autonomy. 00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:50.720 So I've built my work around that now, where I've transitioned to a place where I'm in full control. 00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:53.200 I have stewardship of where I want to be. 00:32:53.359 --> 00:32:57.519 I make choices myself that will leave an impact long term. 00:32:57.839 --> 00:32:59.519 And that was taking a risk. 00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:04.640 You know, imagine giving up 80% of your pay, full-time academic career, to do something completely different. 00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:05.119 Yeah? 00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:06.640 At the peak of your career. 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:07.680 I made that choice. 00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:08.720 I will never go back. 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.519 And you know, my colleagues thought I was crazy, what are you doing? 00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:12.640 You've got a great career here. 00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:13.440 What are you doing? 00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:14.160 Do this for? 00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:17.599 Ten years later, they come to me and say, How can we be like you? 00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:19.039 How can we do what you do? 00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:21.359 I'm saying, yeah, it was risk, right? 00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:24.720 It wasn't straightforward, it didn't come straight, but I mean, I made that calculated risk. 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:26.880 I took the option that I felt was right for me at the time. 00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:32.480 So to the audience, is that you will go through changes where you want something different, but look at yourself and say, What do you need next? 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:33.440 How do you get that? 00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:39.920 And you've got to keep reinventing yourself to keep your passion there, to keep your interest, and to stimulate your mind. 00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:42.000 And now I'm out of my comfort zone all the time. 00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:47.839 I'm doing different things, but I'm not the best person in the room, and I'm the least able, but I find that comfortable. 00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.799 The uncomfortableness I find comfortable because I'm learning. 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:54.319 I'm out of my depth, but my brain keeps ticking over, I'm learning new skills. 00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:58.720 I never thought 10, 12 years ago I'd be in this position, but now I have different skill sets. 00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:07.759 But my job is to make sure that other I share with other people and I try to inspire the future generations by my speaking globally around this concept of future thinking. 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:12.960 And how it I mean, it's it has been truly inspiring, I think, for many people around the world. 00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:32.400 You've been servicing society in more ways than one, and and you know, you've had a humanitarian mission and a and a purpose there where you've incorporated your your core tech technology ideals to support uh humanitarian missions, which led you to be nominated as a uh for the Nobel Peace Prize. 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:36.880 I mean, what an amazing uh you know, a lifetime accomplishment. 00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:39.920 And speaking of legacy and impact, I mean nothing speaks more than that. 00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:55.440 Take us through a little bit, first of all, how when you first heard that you were being nominated for the Nobel Priest Prize, tell us about that that moment and then what led you to to kind of get to that level where people around the world recognized your contributions to humanity. 00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:00.320 Yeah, of course, that's very humbling to be even considered uh to be nominated. 00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:05.119 But yeah, I am again the thing that drives my life is injustice. 00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:09.119 Um it's a thing that spurns me to do better for the world. 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:12.239 And like all of us, we hate to see justice in the world. 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:14.559

But my thing is that what can I do about it? 00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:16.000 Yes, injustice is bad. 00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:18.400 We see on the TV, the horrors we see all the time. 00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:20.559 My question is, I'm not gonna be idle here. 00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:23.760 What can I proactively do to overcome some of the injustices? 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:29.920 So um I started doing humanitarian work uh almost 12, 13 years ago. 00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:36.000 Uh the first mission I was on was after the uh war in 2014 in Gaza. 00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:42.079 And an NGO called Medical After Palestinians said to me, Shafi, you know, um, can we send you to Gaza and West Bank? 00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:52.239 Can you look at everything, their surgical expertise, surgical capacity, the cancer work that they're doing, the training, and just give us a report uh on what you think could be done. 00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:56.800 I spent about a week and a half in West Bank and Gaza, and that's the story for another day. 00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:02.800 Uh, I visited all the medical schools, universities, Department of Health, etc., Ministry of Health, and I came back and wrote a whole plan. 00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:04.639 So this is what I think they need to do. 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:11.519 This is a plan where you can improve capacity, improve skill sets in essentially an open prison, right? 00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:13.440 You can't get in out, so what do you do internally? 00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:14.960 How do you maintain skill sets? 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:20.639 And so I submitted that to the trustees, said, fine, here's a million pounds. 00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:22.000 Can you deliver that project? 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:24.639 Because we agree with you, we would love you to take that on. 00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:29.280 And that time, you know, I hadn't thought about the longer term, so I thought, sure, I can do this. 00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:54.719 And so I spent the next ten years building teams, going back and forth uh three or four times every year, um, using our annual Lib or steady leave where we had available, spending a week to ten days each time, training the surgeons, improving their training skills first and foremost, so they could train the trainers, then improved the capacity of the training itself so that they could have the same model of future consultants, training laparoscopic surgery, which they didn't have access to. 00:36:54.800 --> 00:37:00.400 We actually had to take all the equipment with us through the kind of war zone in big kind of boxes and things. 00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:03.760 And so we did a lot of operations on complex cancer work. 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:05.920 I then ran regular MDTs from the UK. 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:08.960 So we had a team from the UK virtually, they discussed the cases. 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:14.079 Remember, we're in Gaza, the cancer care is compromised because people can't leave. 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.519 So for example, if you need a PET scan, it's not available in Gaza. 00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:22.159 You have to go to the West Bank or Jerusalem, you have to apply for a permit, which is denied often. 00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:24.000 So it's it's difficult to get treatment. 00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:28.719 So we thought, how can we give care there, the best care, uh, in different ways. 00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:34.559 So we've created that whole system, then we started to create a hospital of cancer in Gaza, and we did many, many missions. 00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:39.119 We finished phase three, and we raised the standard to a really high level where they were self-tainable. 00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:41.360 My mission is always not us doing the work. 00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:46.239 There's a lot of kind of heroism attached to NGO work. 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:50.079 You go there, you feel good, you do something, but does it really have impact? 00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:50.639 Not really. 00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:52.880 It has impact for your own personal satisfaction. 00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:56.480 Um my view is I'd go there, but I've got to leave a sustainable solution of care. 00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:03.360 Train them, empower them, empower the local doctors and surgeons so they can live do long term when none of us are here. 00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:06.320 And that's why I created that model uh over ten years. 00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.599 Um it's all been destroyed now, uh, over the last couple of years. 00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:13.119 So I did a lot of that thinking around how do I improve access. 00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:14.159 We brought technology in. 00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:16.079 I was doing Google Glass there, I brought virtual reality. 00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:16.719 I said, why not? 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:17.920 Why don't you take some of this technology? 00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:18.880 We should take it in with us. 00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.760 And I did live streaming from Gaza for the rest of the world, for example. 00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:24.079 I was just like, which is funny, it was like the opposite. 00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:27.760 From here in the UK, I'm getting people from those places to train. 00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:30.159 Now I'm in those places and training the rest of the world. 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:36.800 And that was for me a really important moment to democratize and standardize uh access across the globe. 00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:42.719 And then, of course, I did a lot of work for the Ministry of Health, they're very um appreciative, and I also worked in other uh zones. 00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:47.039 And the other thing I did, of course, I ran uh for the Royal College of Students of England, I was in the council. 00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:51.440 Um I think I was the very first kind of Asian council member in 200 years, for example. 00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:53.760 Again, breaking those kind of barriers. 00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:55.679 But my role there was for

international training. 00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:06.719 And so I ran the international training program and I traveled to 30, 40 countries, build collaborations to be able to train people in those countries in the UK and send them back with skill sets they didn't have. 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:14.400 So over three or four years that I ran the program, we trained about 300 surgeons from across the world in the in the more poor settings. 00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:18.159 And we came, they came to UK for one or two spatological training, and we sent them back. 00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:24.400 Some would stay, but most went back, to erase their surgical services in their countries. 00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:25.840 So, for example, I'll give you an example. 00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:27.599 Paul was a surgeon from Kenya. 00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:31.599 He was a urologist, and he was the only urologist for one million people in Kenya. 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:36.159 And so he came to us and said, I really need to learn more skills to offer that service to my my population. 00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:37.679 So he went to the UK for two years. 00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:41.280 I put him to the hospital in Liverpool for the training that he required specifically. 00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:43.119 After this, he went back, he built a team. 00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:45.840 He has built a team of 10 now over the course of a few years. 00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:52.960 So that training that we did for him in the UK sent him back, you've sustained that long term and built a team now for much better work. 00:39:53.199 --> 00:40:01.199 So I did a lot of that work uh to improve standard of training, but also to empower other countries to raise their own standards. 00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:10.559 So those are reasons why people felt um I I had warranted this nomination uh from Nobel Peace Prize for democratising surgical education. 00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:11.920 And it's humbling, of course. 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:13.119 We do what we can. 00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.519 Uh I was in the right position at the right time, right place. 00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:17.760 The technology was available, I had the right roles. 00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:21.840 And I guess I I chose to use that uh in a way that would have impact. 00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:22.880 And that's the story of that. 00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:23.760 That's amazing. 00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:26.159 What a what a truly inspiring story. 00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:43.519 And uh moving on to sort of the current chapter of what your projects that you're dealing with, you've been working on AI, and given your vast experience in in working with technology, tell us a little bit about the uh the drive, the goals behind publishing a book. 00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:48.159 I think the book is called Intelligent, and it's about the evolution of AI, transforming healthcare. 00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:50.880 And this is a fascinating and a timely topic. 00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:51.199 Yeah. 00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:52.719 If you just walk us through a little bit behind. 00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:54.320 You can see the book behind me. 00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:58.000 So look, yeah, so uh I've written books on surgery before. 00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:00.239 I've written uh textbook on surgery and things, right? 00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:01.519 Which is a different kind of animal. 00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:07.119 And then I had a book contract about seven years ago to write a book on Technology and Innovation and Digital Health. 00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:08.159 I started writing it. 00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:09.440 It was a different kind of book, right? 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:11.920 It's not the usual book that doctors gent to write. 00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:16.079 I started writing it, I wrote two-thirds of it back to publishers, and I wasn't happy with it. 00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:18.559 It wasn't just it wasn't right to feel about the book. 00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:21.039 And then COVID came and things changed. 00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:28.480 And the book I was writing became obsolete because all the things I was predicting came true during COVID because it precipitated innovation in a fast manner. 00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:29.840 So I put it aside. 00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:33.360 Then AI came out, and I was being I'd been teaching AI for a long time. 00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:37.440 And so um I started thinking about, you know, I need to write this book on AI. 00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:39.119 I kept waiting for someone else to write it. 00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:41.360 So if someone's gonna write it, I'll wait for someone else. 00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:41.840 And no one did. 00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:43.920 I thought, oh, right, okay, so it's gonna have to be me, right? 00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:47.760 And so and and the the book is quite interesting. 00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:50.800 It's called Intelligent: The Evolution of AI Transforming Healthcare. 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:51.760 Let me tell you the themes. 00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:53.840 First of all, we need to improve AI literacy. 00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:57.440 A lot of doctors and healthcare workers have a very low literacy of AI. 00:41:57.599 --> 00:41:57.920 Absolutely. 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:03.039 I've been teaching AI for a long time, and knowledge is quite um, I guess, at a low level. 00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:11.679 And so I need to write a book that anybody can pick up: doctor, nurse, healthcare worker, healthcare leader, manager, or a patient, a citizen. 00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:13.039 So, where is AI sitting? 00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:13.599 What does it mean? 00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:14.320 Where does it come from? 00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:15.440 What the use case is? 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:20.000 So, first of all, it's a literacy book, but written in a funny way. 00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:21.280 Here are the themes I wrote about. 00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:23.840 It's quite a complicated book, but very simple to read. 00:42:24.239

--> 00:42:31.199 The first one, theme around the book is the evolution, the key timelines, the key milestones AI across history. 00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:38.239 And I go back to evolution, I talk about Darwin and his theory of evolution, and where we have these called punctuations, which you can read in the book. 00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:43.840 And AI is another punctuation, in my opinion, perhaps the biggest punctuation in our in our lifetime. 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.039 So that sets the framework. 00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:49.440 And that's what the language, people understand the language, superintelligence, singularity, what does it all mean? 00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:54.719 I try to lay out the language that we're using, even AGI, artificial general intelligence, what does it all mean to us? 00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:58.159 So people can pick up and say, okay, this is what they mean, this is what they're talking about every time. 00:42:58.320 --> 00:42:58.880 That's that. 00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:10.559 Then each specialty, where the specialties have been disrupted, from radiology, from dermatology, from pathology, from surgery, I can have all the specialties and the research and validation of where we are in a measured way. 00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:12.880 Not sensationalism, it's where do we sit? 00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:13.519 Where's the evidence? 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:14.320 What can we use it for? 00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:15.360 Where's the risks for us? 00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:16.800 So really measured approach. 00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:19.280 And then talk about the philosophy at the end. 00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:20.400 Who pays for this? 00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:22.239 How does society pay for AI? 00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:28.639 Let's talk about the fresh water that's required for the data centers, for example, what's the value, and how do we pay for that? 00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:34.239 And then there's the whole architecture of data, governance, it's called the unfinished architecture, the last part one chapter. 00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:41.360 We have to decide our own pathway around this data interpretation, the risks, the governance around this, which is unfinished. 00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:47.280 And so the product of the book is called the weight of now, the weight on our shoulders, the weight of AI on all of us. 00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:48.239 What does it mean? 00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:49.840 How does it benefit patients? 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:50.800 How do we use it? 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:51.840 What are the risks? 00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.320 And so those are the themes that come throughout the book. 00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:59.280 And the last theme throughout the book, most important one, is human agency, having control. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:07.599 Containing AI in a way that we can use it, that's measurable, has less risk to our patients and maximum benefit. 00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:13.519 So those are the themes of the book, which I hope your readers will

buy and read it, understand that's how I craft it. 00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:17.119 It took a long time thinking about this, but I'm really happy with the book. 00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:20.000 It's a book that it's one of the best things I've ever done. 00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:26.719 It was challenging because you're writing a book on technology surgery, also is a story. 00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:27.679 I'm a storyteller. 00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:31.519 They call me a storytelling scrubs because of my keynote so give globally. 00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:33.679 So for me, it was a book to tell a story about AI. 00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:35.760 So the question is, how do you tell a story on AI? 00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:36.800 It's really hard, right? 00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:37.920 But I think I've got it. 00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:42.639 It's a storytelling, and people have seen everyone who's read it so far has given me some amazing feedback. 00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:46.480 I'm so pleased that the feedback has been really incredible. 00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:49.360 So I feel that I've done what I need to do with this book. 00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:50.639 I'll update it, of course. 00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:53.840 Um the other question is, right, people say um it becomes obsolete really quickly. 00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:54.800 AI changes. 00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:55.920 How is it relevant? 00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:57.760 That was another hard question I asked myself. 00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:00.079 I've written it in such a way that it's timeless. 00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:02.400 It's written in such a way that it's still relevant. 00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:05.360 I can update bits of here and there, it'll still remain relevant. 00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:08.400 So I'm really happy with the fact it's timeless to a certain extent. 00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:21.760 And it's written in such a way that it's engaging, tell the story in a readable manner, not too technical, so the average person can really read it, pick it up perhaps a day or two, and understand where we are. 00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:24.480 So yeah, that was the theory behind it all. 00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:32.000 I hope that explains the complexity of writing these kind of books, but also understanding what's needed from the end user, which is obviously the reader. 00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:40.639 I mean, that's I think such a fascinating concept, and you you it sounds like you crystallize it, and it's got to be a must-read for those of us who want to adopt technology. 00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:44.719 And I I don't think there is any other alternative but to not to learn about AI. 00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:46.239 It's it's it's all pervasive. 00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:50.960 Where do you see AI going in the future, and how do you think medicine will benefit from this? 00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:54.159 So AI has overpromised and underdelivered. 00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:55.199 That's the first thing to say. 00:45:55.360 --> 00:46:06.400 When it came out about 10

years ago, um well, it didn't well, it's it's been a long time uh coming, but the last 10 years have been transformative because AI suddenly became available to people with chat GPT large language models. 00:46:06.639 --> 00:46:09.280 So it overpromised, it's underdelivered. 00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:10.800 It's finding its place now. 00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:12.800 People think it will change everything, it hasn't. 00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:14.239 It's slowly changing things. 00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:16.960 And we are adopting it in radiology and dermatology. 00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:20.159 We find the use cases, we created the structure of governance around it as we speak. 00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:23.280 So it has a lot of use cases, mainly imaging analysis. 00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:26.480 It's a lot of stuff in the back end automation we're seeing will change. 00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:28.000 AI is a new big thing. 00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:31.280 LLMs, of course, we've been using agentic AI is a new big thing. 00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:32.480 Um we're building agents. 00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:38.000 I work with a company that's building an agent so that you can literally pay to do what you want to do as a doctor. 00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:40.960 In next two years, three years, we'll all have our own agent. 00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:42.239 You know, this is my agent. 00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:44.880 He'll do his work for me, I'll tell you what to do, he'll do it for me. 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:50.079 We've we're seeing ambient AI, of course, we're seeing this kind of voiced text, right, being deployed. 00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:51.599 And that's the lowest hanging fruit. 00:46:51.679 --> 00:46:59.760 Ambient AI, which is just speaking like we are, taking that conversation, using AI and transcripting it into the electronic health record, that's ambient AI. 00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:03.119 And in fact, it's the one that's been most deployed globally. 00:47:03.199 --> 00:47:07.039 I think there was two billion raised in the last 18 months by ambient AI companies to healthcare. 00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:14.639 And I was in Toronto two months ago, and even Toronto, 10% of the rural population of primary care physicians are using ambient AI. 00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:19.360 It's huge deployment, huge scale, because it's low risk, because there's no patient problems. 00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:24.239 You're not taking making diagnosis, we're just literally transcribing and then checking over it. 00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:25.920 There's a human in the loop, as we call it. 00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:28.000 So that's why it's been deployed, and it's quite cheap. 00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:30.239 The others are much more harder because of regulations. 00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:34.000 The EU had the EU AI Act, makes it hard for a lot of people to deploy AI. 00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:36.000 Um of course the US has a different system. 00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:41.760 But imaging, radiology, dermatology, pathology are the lowest

hanging fruit because it's all based on ImageNet. 00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:46.960 It's part of the book I write that Fei Fei Ling from Stanford talked about, the ImageNet uh program. 00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:51.280 Um, surgery we're seeing a little bit as well for surgery navigation tools. 00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:58.880 Um, Arnold's company from Hong Kong, where you now you can overlay information on the screen and it shows you where things are, which is what I've talked about for many years. 00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:15.920 And we've gone from analog surgery to the concept of digital surgery now, a rather new concept, which is connectedness, hyperconnectedness, remote training, remote work, remote telementoring, remote surgery, robots, 5G networks, the XR bit, um, and also navigation with AI. 00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:20.159 So there's a bunch of things now that create this concept of digital surgery. 00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:24.000 Um, pharmacy changing, drug discovery, AI drugs. 00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:32.639 We've had the third AI drug uh discovered uh through AI, and that's work that's led from Domusabis work from Deep Mind to unravel the protein folding. 00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:34.639 Again, there's many of those examples I'll give you. 00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:38.079 It's exciting, it's powerful, it will change our world forever. 00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:39.519 It's changed our world forever already. 00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:42.719 It's transformative, and it's a big transformation we've had in our lifetime. 00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:44.800 At the same time, medicine's difficult. 00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:55.519 It's easy in other industries to show the value, much harder in medicine because of the complexity and also the recipe goes wrong, which is bad patient outcomes or bad experiences, or even patient death, for example. 00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:58.719 So we have to be very balanced about how we adopt it in a manner. 00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:00.559 And that's, I think, the approach we're taking at the moment. 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:01.280 Awesome. 00:49:01.519 --> 00:49:18.960 So, Professor Shafi, you you are you've been a keynote speaker, TED speaker, you've you've uh you know a very high-level communicator, you know, platform such as Davos, where many of the um, you know, stakeholders who make decisions, you've engaged with them. 00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:28.320 What are your tips for for being an effective communicator that engages their audience so they're not just listening, but they're also acting on some of the things that you're communicating? 00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:29.599 That's a really good question. 00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.000 I guess I I became better communicating. 00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:36.559 When I became a a speaker on the international circuit, it was really unusual. 00:49:36.639 --> 00:49:39.039 We don't get many doctors on that circuit generally. 00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:43.199 We speak generally at surgical conferences, orthopedic conferences. 00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:45.599 We might give talks, we might present papers. 00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:49.039 So we know we have a system in place of how we do things. 00:49:49.199 --> 00:49:54.000 The postal presentation, the publication, and the state of the art lectures. 00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:54.320 Okay? 00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:57.280 When you talk to a different audience, it's a completely different mindset. 00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:02.239 You have to inspire people, you have to take them on a journey, you have to become a storyteller, because that's impactful. 00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:05.920 You have to know how to design, if it's a 20 minutes talk, what does that look like? 00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:08.079 I spend a lot of time thinking about a story in that 20 minutes. 00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:08.960 How do I tell that story? 00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:11.599 What the important things I want to leave them with, the impression. 00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:16.960 Being credible, being authentic, being articulate, being relevant, being credible, right? 00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:20.159 All these things matter when you're having impact for these things. 00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:28.159 And I, you know, I've been I've given talks to a small amount of people, leadership teams of, you know, a few people, audiences of 25,000 people in a stadium, right? 00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:29.679 So you have to be versatile. 00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:32.079 So how do I tell the story to that many people? 00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:34.000 What do they want to hear face to hear? 00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:35.920 It's understanding their perspectives. 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:36.960 Where are they in their conversation? 00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:38.639 I'm talking to different audiences all the time. 00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:39.840 What do they want to get from this? 00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:43.519 How do I maneuver this conversation that they want to understand? 00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:51.599 So there's a lot of thinking around this, a lot of thinking around the design of this talk, the speech, what you're giving, how you do it, and the graphics and the visuals that you might use. 00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:54.559 Um because people pay me a lot of money to go speak, right? 00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:56.000 Uh I'm a professional speaker. 00:50:56.159 --> 00:51:06.400 They would be entertained, they would have impact, they won't have credibility, they want to have a specialist, they want to have someone who's got real knowledge, who's a futurist, who's a disruptor. 00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:08.800 And so you have to inspire people as well. 00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:10.320 So I've learned that art. 00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:20.800 I wasn't gifted with this, I wasn't born with this, to learn slowly how to unravel these stories, make them into compelling conversations for people. 00:51:21.039 --> 00:51:22.079 And so, yeah, I've learned that. 00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:25.119 I could write a whole book on this, by the way, because I don't

think doctors do it very well. 00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:29.920 I think we're not trained to be communicators, although we do communication, not in that manner. 00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:36.000 So I've been to every audience, you can imagine, 400 keynotes in 65, and there's 70 countries now, right? 00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:37.039 Over the last 10 years. 00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:38.239 I've lived on the plane. 00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:41.920 And so you can so you really have to understand the impact that you might have. 00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:44.159 So, yeah, so it's been a really strange experience. 00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:46.480 It wasn't part of my trajectory, as I mentioned earlier. 00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:50.079 But I found myself in this unique place and I really enjoy it now. 00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:57.679 I really enjoy the traveling, meeting people, seeing different things going on, seeing tech, seeing different healthcare systems, have impact in different ways. 00:51:57.840 --> 00:51:59.280 I thoroughly enjoy my life now. 00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:01.119 I enjoyed my life as a surgeon, don't get me wrong. 00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:02.639 I thoroughly enjoyed my life as a surgeon. 00:52:02.719 --> 00:52:11.360 Uh, and I really was happy as a surgeon, but then you moved on from your transition, and now you find solace and comfort in a different kind of uh avenue. 00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:13.760 Yeah, it's been it's been a journey that was totally unexpected. 00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:14.480 Fascinating. 00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:15.199 Fascinating. 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:28.960 So we're almost towards the end of our uh program, and just you know, we'd like to do a lightning round where we'd have a little fun with our guest where we fire some questions at you and uh we look at your quick response rate. 00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:31.920 So uh let me know when you're ready for our lightning round. 00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:34.400 I don't think I'm ready, but I'll say I'm ready. 00:52:34.639 --> 00:52:34.960 Okay. 00:52:35.360 --> 00:52:39.039 The one AI tool you actually use in your clinical life right now. 00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:40.000 Ambient AI? 00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:41.840 Biggest myth about AI in healthcare. 00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:46.800 It's over and underdelivered because of the governance around patient care, which is a good thing. 00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:50.559 A surgeon in 2035, still relevant or disrupted? 00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:52.719 Well they say there's a whole say, isn't there? 00:52:52.960 --> 00:53:02.400 A surgeon who doesn't use AI will be will be um, I guess, taken over by someone who uses AI. 00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:03.440 They they say that all the time. 00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:06.480 But actually, I think it'll be everyone would adopt AI to certain extent. 00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:07.440 We're using it all the time. 00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:08.480 It'll be inevitable. 00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:14.559 We use surgical navigation tools, interoperative tools that we're building in the OR, it's gonna be all around you. 00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:15.840 You can't get away from it. 00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:23.440 Embrace it, use it, understand it, understand the risks and benefits, empower yourself with that knowledge to maintain credibility and relevance. 00:53:23.760 --> 00:53:26.559 One book besides yours that every doctor should read. 00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:30.320 I I'd recommend The Coming Wave by Mustafa Suleiman. 00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:36.880 He used to be the Google Deep Mind team working with Demis Sasabis, he's now the CEO of AI for Microsoft. 00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:39.119 And he wrote a book a few years ago, which I thought was amazing. 00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:42.800 It's called The Coming Wave by Mustafa Suleim, a fascinating book. 00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:47.760 Uh, he talks about the philosophy and ethics of AI and where we are, and he talked about containment, how we contain. 00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:49.039 And I quoted my book actually. 00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:49.679 Awesome. 00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:54.159 And uh if you could fix one thing about medical education globally, what is it? 00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:55.599 That it should be more relevant. 00:53:55.760 --> 00:54:07.039 I think we're doing our medical students a disservice because we're training people to practice in 2026, but actually we should be training for 2030, 2035. 00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:10.320 Do for example, medical schools teach on AI, do they teach about technology? 00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:16.480 They teach about innovation, entrepreneurship, they teach about these things which are fundamental to who we are, and of course, leadership. 00:54:16.719 --> 00:54:21.599 They don't because they are rather archaic and they teach the same thing over and over again. 00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:30.159 And the new doctors of tomorrow need to be embraced and equipped with the right faculties, right skill sets to be relevant in this year. 00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:31.599 So that's a big bug around. 00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:33.119 I just think we've got to change it, be radical. 00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:37.519 I ran this course called BARTS X in 2016, 13. 00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:44.880 It was a course in medical school I bought in that brought in innovation, technology, entrepreneurship, interruption into the curriculum for year three medical school. 00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:49.039 We taught them about all these things as part of every third year medical student. 00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:51.039 And I thought others would take on that board. 00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:52.239 No one's done it since. 00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:56.159 And that's a shame because I think our medical students are quite very bright. 00:54:56.320 --> 00:54:58.559 They work in a different world that we were born in. 00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:01.599 They need to embrace those skill sets which inspire them. 00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:04.960 So I I feel that we haven't moved quickly enough. 00:55:05.039 -->

00:55:06.880 And the world won't wait for us. 00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:10.159 So important for them people to understand the world is moving rapidly. 00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:12.880 Technology companies aren't waiting for medicine, not saying, Are you ready? 00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:13.760 No, no, they're moving. 00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:15.599 The question for us is are we ready for that change? 00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:16.400 Are we equipped? 00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:21.519 Are we enough disruptive enough in our own mindsets to allow us to go on that journey? 00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:22.800 Or are we going to be resistant? 00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:24.239 And that's the problem. 00:55:24.400 --> 00:55:25.199 That's the bottleneck. 00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:32.000 And finally, Professor Amit, what gives you hope about the future of medicine and what makes you optimistic? 00:55:32.239 --> 00:55:36.880 I just think the innovation technology that's taking place around us, we're doing so many amazing things. 00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:41.039 Robots, who would have thought 26 years ago the robots would now be so commonplace? 00:55:41.199 --> 00:55:42.239 Yeah, who would have thought that? 00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:44.239 Aparoscope surgery, surgery, right? 00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:45.119 Now commonplace. 00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:46.719 We were thinking about it 26 years ago. 00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:54.000 The technologies around AI, drug discovery, the AI used for imaging, for example, patient care, preventative medicine. 00:55:54.159 --> 00:55:55.760 We've gone from sick care to wildcare. 00:55:55.840 --> 00:55:58.719 People now get better care at home, for example, community medicine, right? 00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:03.679 GLP ones came out, changed obesity overnight, reducing diabetic rates, for example. 00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:06.559 So we're seeing all these major disruptions take place. 00:56:06.880 --> 00:56:09.679 If we use the right way, healthcare can get better. 00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:19.840 And when I go around the world going to poor resource settings, I see the advantage, the value of turbocharging healthcare systems and leapfrogging the West. 00:56:20.079 --> 00:56:24.559 They go to parts of Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, parts of Asia, they think outside the model. 00:56:24.719 --> 00:56:27.599 The West isn't all that's meant to be in healthcare. 00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:33.679 People say no, we do something differently for our healthcare population, our demographics, we can leapfrog other societies. 00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:40.960 I love that thinking that healthcare isn't just one system, it's everyone's system and it's individualized for each country, and they can do better. 00:56:41.119 --> 00:56:42.880 So I love that disruption in thinking. 00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:53.599 I mean, it's it's what an amazing story, and your legacy, I'm sure, will will continue to uh expand and and and your impact will continue to grow. 00:56:53.840 --> 00:57:01.599 So I thank you so much, and we look forward, and I would invite our audience to engage with the book, The Intelligent. 00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:04.480 I think it's so timely about the role of AI. 00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:07.519 So we really appreciate your time and your candor. 00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:07.920 Thank you. 00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:08.880 Thank you for having me. 00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:09.920 I really enjoyed the conversation. 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:10.639 Thank you, Mammon. 00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:11.599 Thank you so much. 00:57:11.920 --> 00:57:14.639 Thank you for joining us on Beyond the Scalpel. 00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:20.880 We hope today's conversation gave you new insights into the future of health, healing, and human performance. 00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:28.960 If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with others passionate about medicine, wellness, and innovation. 00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:30.079 To learn more about Dr. 00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:37.920 Mammon Al Rashid, visit www.palmbeach regenerativeorthopedics.com. 00:57:38.159 --> 00:57:45.360 Until next time, stay curious, stay informed, and take care of your health, both inside and beyond the scalpel.