Will Maclean, Solace House bölümünün tam dökümü

00:03:47.740 --> 00:03:51.199 And then, you sort of, your habits become a bit more formalized. 00:03:51.245 --> 00:03:54.242 But I did always just read anything that came my way. 00:03:54.301 --> 00:03:56.400 There was a lot of stuff- Wait I really just loved as a kid. 00:03:56.731 --> 00:03:57.782 No, but I'm so curious about this. 00:03:57.782 --> 00:04:00.745 When you say is, is the wrong approach towards in regards to what? 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:05.768 Well, I went to university and, and, and you're told that it's sort of like you've been doing it wrong. 00:04:06.150 --> 00:04:08.891 If you were reading for pleasure, you've been doing it incorrectly. 00:04:08.943 --> 00:04:14.782 And, and it's the first time because I'm first generation of my family to go to university, so it's like there's a lot of things I was unaware of. 00:04:14.782 --> 00:04:18.122 Like the, I'd not heard the term canon of English literature before. 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:22.778 so, you know, the, the sort of books you are expected to have read if you study English literature. 00:04:22.793 --> 00:04:25.459 And it was not a thing that I, I'd experienced before. 00:04:25.709 --> 00:04:29.812 So I had this kind of ramshackle knowledge of a lot of things, but not... 00:04:30.048 --> 00:04:37.677 You know, there are massive gaps in my, in my reading, I think, and there still are, which I try to plug every year by reading something I should have read ages ago. 00:04:37.874 --> 00:04:43.418 Yeah,'cause my canon when I was young would've been strictly Stephen King and maybe, um, V.C. 00:04:43.422 --> 00:04:44.831 Andrews' smattered in, so 00:04:45.673 --> 00:04:52.153 Well, exactly, and it's sort of like, you know, like I was one of those kids, if I liked one book by someone, I'd read everything they read, which I think is a very... 00:04:52.620 --> 00:05:01.749 So when I went for an interview at university, like,"What have you been reading?" They went, I said,"Kurt Vonnegut." They said,"Well, which one?" I was like,"Literally all of them," because that's what I read for six months. 00:05:01.749 --> 00:05:02.985 You know, it's one of those things. 00:05:02.992 --> 00:05:15.980 But I, I don't like people using books as a kind of intimidatory thing that like, you know,"You're doing it wrong." Uh, s- I was lucky enough to have really good tutors at university, and they sort of, flew the flag for the value of the things that they taught. 00:05:16.084 --> 00:05:20.307 But I don't like that thing where people are kind of snobbish about what people are reading. 00:05:20.331 --> 00:05:21.127 I think reading is reading. 00:05:21.494 --> 00:05:26.464 And if you're reading something you enjoy, then that's clearly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. 00:05:26.677 --> 00:05:26.937 So. 00:05:27.343 --> 00:05:28.255 Oh, 100%. 00:05:28.326 --> 00:05:28.600 Yeah. 00:05:28.605 --> 00:05:50.526 I find it even now, even with Instagram or social media, just even right now watching all the

discourse about the Booker Prize and, um, everybody talking about it, and seeing some people dig in on, you know,"This is such serious literature, and this is why." And sometimes I'll read some of these things and be like,"I don't even know what the hell I'm reading- Yeah or getting out of this," and I'm like,"Uh, am I just stupid? 00:05:50.526 --> 00:06:07.314 Am I just failing?" I will say even with your book, I went through it and there were moments that I was, like, digging for what am I missing here, or what am I a- anticipating or trying to get ahead of it to try to figure out, you know, this has been called a puzzle box at times. 00:06:07.752 --> 00:06:07.766 Yeah. 00:06:07.766 --> 00:06:15.105 And I, I will say, like, when I was putting my thoughts together for this interview, there was something towards... 00:06:15.117 --> 00:06:28.994 It was the very last paragraph of the book, which we're not gonna give spoilers away, but- I realized because I was coming out with another question for you, what just tied in, and I know you'll know what I'm, you know what I'm talking about. 00:06:29.408 --> 00:06:29.497 Yeah. 00:06:29.541 --> 00:06:38.771 And literally my head exploded and my son had come in to my room and I was like, I made him sit down and I was like,"You don't understand. 00:06:38.982 --> 00:06:54.250 I, I, I just figured something out and I don't even know if people are gonna figure this out and I need to talk about this with people." And, um, so it is one of these moments like I went a little off track of where we were just going, but it made me think of this'cause at first I was like, God, this ending can I... 00:06:54.627 --> 00:06:58.382 And then this ending and I was like, holy shit. 00:06:58.392 --> 00:07:00.038 So anyway, we'll get into all that in a second. 00:07:00.047 --> 00:07:05.463 But it's, it's sort of that's reflective of what I like and value in books or reading as an experience. 00:07:05.463 --> 00:07:12.564 I think you've got a responsibility as a, as a writer to hold a reader's attention and, and not talk down to them. 00:07:12.607 --> 00:07:23.404 I think a lot of literature does sort of talk down to people and it, it makes what I think is, is the cardinal sin which is assuming that the audience is less bright than they are, which I hate. 00:07:23.516 --> 00:07:23.906 I really- 00:07:23.908 --> 00:07:24.178 Yeah 00:07:24.699 --> 00:07:26.435 dislike that enormously when I read that. 00:07:26.435 --> 00:07:27.187 You know, when you're being like... 00:07:27.411 --> 00:07:29.583 Especially with things where you have to put a sort of twist in. 00:07:29.584 --> 00:07:40.966 It's like, often an astute reader will guess a twist really early doors and then you've got, you know, 200 pages of, of a thing that you've already worked out, uh, which is incredibly frustrating to read. 00:07:41.021 --> 00:07:42.884 It's interesting you mentioned the Booker Prize'cause M. 00:07:42.884 --> 00:07:47.901 John Harrison's on it this

year, who I absolutely love Um, and I, I really like The End of Everything. 00:07:47.901 --> 00:07:54.617 I think, to be fair,'cause I'm such a massive fan of his, I think he's written better books, but I, I, I did love The End of Everything. 00:07:54.617 --> 00:07:55.298 I thought it was great. 00:07:55.362 --> 00:08:07.728 But it's, it's interesting to me as a sort of writer who's neither one thing nor the other,'cause like I'm from, for want of a better term, I'm from a working class background, but I sound middle class and always have because I didn't go out a lot. 00:08:07.790 --> 00:08:09.485 Didn't leave the house. 00:08:09.531 --> 00:08:14.288 But w- I don't like that, that box that, that writers are often put in. 00:08:14.298 --> 00:08:21.250 If you're from a certain background, you have to write a certain kind of fiction, and I think the Booker Prize carries on over to that where they kind of all, they're... 00:08:21.415 --> 00:08:24.504 I'm glad they're letting science fiction in, I guess is what I'm saying. 00:08:24.505 --> 00:08:30.697 I'm glad they're letting genre in, uh, like when they put Fever Dream by Samanta Schweblin, which I just, is a brilliant book. 00:08:30.778 --> 00:08:33.494 But it's sort of like I, I don't like snobbishness towards genre. 00:08:33.518 --> 00:08:40.163 I think, and I don't like this idea that if you're a certain kind of writer, if you're a gay writer, you must write books about the gay experience. 00:08:40.163 --> 00:08:44.989 It's incredibly limiting for, I think, writers to just write about a little box they might be in. 00:08:45.047 --> 00:08:46.307 I mean, it's handy to have that. 00:08:46.350 --> 00:08:51.635 It's interesting, though, you're saying that'cause I find so many parallels between w- writers and actors. 00:08:51.652 --> 00:09:00.081 Well, obviously creatives, but just to what you're saying and how the same way, uh, uh, actors get boxed into, you're able to play this or you're able to be this. 00:09:00.091 --> 00:09:01.703 Think, I think a lot is changing. 00:09:01.750 --> 00:09:07.374 I think people's, you know, public perce- There was the, you know, my mom always used to say,"Poor Anthony Perkins, you know? 00:09:07.398 --> 00:09:17.609 He's, he's only ever gonna be Norman Bates." And I think that from a couple of generations ago was, was true, that you were, if you did one thing, that was who you were, and you could never escape that for good or- 00:09:17.624 --> 00:09:20.918 And to be fair, he was a little, uh, pigeonholed himself anyway. 00:09:21.443 --> 00:09:21.614 Yeah, 00:09:22.517 --> 00:09:22.846 he, he was. 00:09:22.855 --> 00:09:24.048 He, he, he is 00:09:24.570 --> 00:09:26.192 superb as Norman Bates. 00:09:26.222 --> 00:09:26.706 Yes. 00:09:26.706 --> 00:09:27.395 There is no- Yes 00:09:27.503 --> 00:09:31.225 Uh, but it is a thing I think now people are just a bit more forgiving of. 00:09:31.412 --> 00:09:36.076 You know, there's a thing that I think, uh, people are less

hung up on genre than they used to be. 00:09:36.152 --> 00:09:39.192 When I grew up, there was a lot of snobbishness, I think, in Britain towards Stephen King. 00:09:39.195 --> 00:09:40.700 I think he was viewed as sort of pulp-y. 00:09:40.932 --> 00:09:45.264 And I think people have just caught up with the idea it's just generally quite hard to write a book, you know? 00:09:45.860 --> 00:09:46.087 So- 00:09:46.123 --> 00:09:46.559 Yeah 00:09:46.611 --> 00:09:49.951 uh, so you know, you write what you can, and that's what you've written. 00:09:49.985 --> 00:09:50.719 And yeah. 00:09:50.765 --> 00:09:51.653 No, I, I agree. 00:09:51.754 --> 00:09:57.863 You've written for some of the best comedians, including Tracey Ullman and Peter Serafinowicz and Miranda Hart. 00:09:57.897 --> 00:09:59.136 How was that experience? 00:09:59.139 --> 00:09:59.989 That's great. 00:10:00.198 --> 00:10:01.914 Uh, I really enjoyed it. 00:10:01.914 --> 00:10:03.480 It's the early part of my career. 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:10.205 I, um, me and a friend wrote a script ages and ages ago, and it was like 2004, I think we wrote it. 00:10:10.214 --> 00:10:13.714 Um, it got picked up by Asha Taylor, who'd then just done The Office. 00:10:14.255 --> 00:10:21.634 And the script didn't go anywhere, but as a result of that, I got an agent and, and, you know, we, we wrote sketches for a lot of people. 00:10:22.110 --> 00:10:26.941 Um, and then the, the credit crunch happened, and there was less comedy than ever before. 00:10:27.003 --> 00:10:27.644 Don't know why. 00:10:27.956 --> 00:10:30.167 Uh, so I kind of sidestepped into kids TV. 00:10:30.235 --> 00:10:33.889 And both of them, I have to say, I always say this, they were, they were a really good apprenticeship. 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:37.173 Comedy's terrifying because you have to be funny. 00:10:37.755 --> 00:10:39.971 Um, it's instant success or failure. 00:10:40.086 --> 00:10:47.017 but and also like when you go into co-comedy, like you're, you're overthinking it when you start off and you're... 00:10:47.032 --> 00:10:49.778 And also, like, for me, it was never a reliable gift. 00:10:49.804 --> 00:10:50.802 I, I found it. 00:10:51.139 --> 00:10:54.802 I did two days on Tracey Ullman Show, and the first day I hadn't written for ages. 00:10:54.826 --> 00:11:00.272 I think it was like six months where I hadn't written any gags, and I went in, and I absolutely sucked on the first day. 00:11:00.715 --> 00:11:04.565 Like I, I was so bad, I almost apologized to her at the end. 00:11:04.798 --> 00:11:06.091 She was not only one of the... 00:11:06.153 --> 00:11:11.322 People always go like,"People in show business, they're really nice." Uh, but she was genuinely one of the nicest people I think I've ever met. 00:11:11.394 --> 00:11:12.519 She was just incredible. 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:16.462 She was genuinely interested in who you were and like, you know, what, where you were coming from. 00:11:16.673 --> 00:11:20.230 And the second

day, because I had absolutely nothing to lose, you know, and, and- 00:11:20.303 --> 00:11:20.657 Yeah 00:11:20.664 --> 00:11:24.365 I was relaxed and therefore was a lot better, you know? 00:11:24.370 --> 00:11:26.230 And I just sort of killed it on the second day. 00:11:26.287 --> 00:11:35.922 You know, like it, it both were horrible and nerve-wracking because you're like, I'm literally, flying by the seats of my pants on both of these things, and this is not a reliable way to make a living. 00:11:35.942 --> 00:11:38.583 And it's often, I found that a lot with comedy. 00:11:38.583 --> 00:11:45.140 Certain people are really good at understanding the maths behind it and sort of, you know,'cause there are certain approaches you can make. 00:11:45.140 --> 00:11:52.918 And I worked with a bunch of people on impression shows, and they were just like gag, gag, gag, gag, which is not a, a way that I would normally approach things. 00:11:52.918 --> 00:11:55.743 I'd normally go character, and who's this person and what do they want? 00:11:56.100 --> 00:11:57.565 But often you don't have time for that. 00:11:57.738 --> 00:12:01.009 It's a, it's a very unforgiving apprenticeship. 00:12:01.923 --> 00:12:02.393 Truly. 00:12:02.447 --> 00:12:06.677 Meanwhile, were you still, uh, you were writing, writing, like you started writing books during all this? 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:06.878 I, 00:12:07.325 --> 00:12:16.644 I've always written books for good or ill, and I found one recently that I wrote when I was 23 And it's obviously awful. 00:12:17.116 --> 00:12:18.818 Uh, but it was nice to see it again. 00:12:18.820 --> 00:12:20.850 It's nice to know that progress has been made. 00:12:21.605 --> 00:12:23.730 Uh, but it was It's, it's not good. 00:12:23.996 --> 00:12:30.048 I thought, and I thought recently, I thought,"Yeah, I'll do a William Burroughs and cut it up and try and make it,"'cause I was unwilling to burn it or get rid of it. 00:12:30.392 --> 00:12:33.552 And I thought,"I'll do some cut up." And it cut up, it's all, it's even worse. 00:12:33.836 --> 00:12:38.984 I've, I've cut the text up and now I've just got this bag of texts where it's just like, you know, awful. 00:12:39.057 --> 00:12:46.500 So it's like, I think I may have to get rid of it, but I've always written, and I've always liked writing prose. 00:12:46.541 --> 00:13:03.235 It took me a long time to get to a point where I mean, I'm 53 now, so I'm, you know, like I'm, I'm Write- writing wise, I'm a sort of dashing young blade, but in terms of TV comedy, like I, I don't think I have anything more to sort of give in that sense. 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:08.309 The idea of you know, pitching ideas and making them compete with other people's ideas just sort of leaves me cold. 00:13:08.369 --> 00:13:10.527 Whereas prose is infinite. 00:13:10.606 --> 00:13:14.609 It's that sense of possibility you get when you open the page for the first time. 00:13:14.652 --> 00:13:15.734 It, I just love it. 00:13:15.932 --> 00:13:17.754 So yeah, and that never goes, I think. 00:13:17.831 --> 00:13:28.051 Well, your first book, uh, that was published in 2020, The Apparition Phase, I will tell you, on a side note, I saw on Amazon the hardback is on sale for$389.50. 00:13:28.458 --> 00:13:28.831 So- 00:13:30.101 --> 00:13:30.331 Yeah. 00:13:30.542 --> 00:13:31.096 You know what? 00:13:31.116 --> 00:13:33.705 There's, there's literally 10 copies in my loft if you want one. 00:13:35.173 --> 00:13:36.631 Uh, they're lit- they're over there. 00:13:36.631 --> 00:13:37.143 I can pick them up. 00:13:37.413 --> 00:13:41.500 Um, I, I am also a huge fan of books as objects. 00:13:41.581 --> 00:13:48.731 I spend a lot of time in secondhand bookshops looking for treasure and obscure things, and I think there's a lot of writers who do that, I think. 00:13:48.745 --> 00:13:57.985 But I like that as an item it has value It's become a desirable thing, especially in an era where, you know, everything is available. 00:13:58.086 --> 00:14:00.763 Scarcity is gone, and everything is available all the time. 00:14:00.764 --> 00:14:01.631 I quite like that idea. 00:14:01.701 --> 00:14:07.490 The only other thing I wanna talk about before we get into the book is The Broken Veil, which is this podcast, that you created with Joel Morris. 00:14:07.682 --> 00:14:18.592 And y- you talked about, I think, and maybe this was on social media, could've been on Instagram, that, uh, because the podcast explores stories where in certain conditions, the veil of reality breaks, and you said that, uh, I think- 00:14:18.629 --> 00:14:21.879 That's a brilliant description, which we probably should've u- used in promotional materials. 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:22.460 That's really good. 00:14:22.461 --> 00:14:23.942 We might actually just have to steal that from 00:14:24.692 --> 00:14:24.812 you. 00:14:24.913 --> 00:14:26.288 It's very concise, so. 00:14:26.809 --> 00:14:38.149 But I think you say in the introduction to the podcast, you talk about, Solace House, and you say the people that, that like this podcast would probably find something similar to like in the book. 00:14:38.655 --> 00:14:38.679 Yeah. 00:14:38.679 --> 00:14:43.553 So I'm wondering, with that said, let's launch into the book a little bit,'cause my questions started to stem out of that. 00:14:43.563 --> 00:14:47.822 But for our listeners and for our viewers, do you, do you have a elevator pitch for Solace House? 00:14:48.123 --> 00:15:10.947 Uh, I would say, a student, a lonely student, is left alone during the massive gap between his first and second year of university over summer, and through a piece of good fortune, he joins a bunch of other students clearing out a hospital and then subsequently a large house, which have been both acquired by the university with a view to turning them into halls of residence. 00:15:11.126 --> 00:15:14.075 As it's a fundamentally, it has the bones of a horror story. 00:15:14.355 -->

00:15:15.474 Things do not go well. 00:15:16.015 --> 00:15:18.561 Uh, things do not go according to plan. 00:15:18.842 --> 00:15:22.375 And it's partly an exercise on my part, seeing how wrong that could go. 00:15:22.471 --> 00:15:33.951 So what I started to, to ask you before when I was in relation to the podcast, had this story began to germinate before that, or was your work on the podcast, did that bleed into this as well? 00:15:34.102 --> 00:15:35.306 Or where did it all begin for you? 00:15:35.884 --> 00:15:38.082 They're really kind of two separate things, I think. 00:15:38.091 --> 00:15:41.254 The podcast is its own thing,'cause I write that with Joel. 00:15:41.426 --> 00:15:46.059 But the book, um, I'd always wanted to write something about... 00:15:46.061 --> 00:15:51.554 'Cause I, for various reasons, I couldn't go home At summer term. 00:15:51.629 --> 00:15:54.298 And I was, I was like Alex in the book, just left there. 00:15:54.745 --> 00:15:55.082 And 00:15:55.092 --> 00:15:57.687 in, at university and so- You know, and it is empty. 00:15:57.697 --> 00:15:58.605 It just empties out. 00:15:58.975 --> 00:16:05.236 And I always thought that was a promising precinct in which to set a story because it is an unusual time. 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:07.211 It's that sort of left behindness of it. 00:16:07.822 --> 00:16:15.115 Uh, the movie The Holdovers came out when I was writing this, which I still haven't seen and probably never will because it came out while I was writing this. 00:16:15.118 --> 00:16:17.678 But it's a similar kind of premise that, you know... 00:16:17.908 --> 00:16:23.625 But I understand The Holdovers is set at Christmas, which from my experience, Christmas is, is a different proposition. 00:16:23.895 --> 00:16:24.572 It's short. 00:16:24.663 --> 00:16:26.735 There's a tradition of taking people into Christmas. 00:16:26.774 --> 00:16:29.530 Whereas summer it's like it's three months, you know, you're on your own. 00:16:29.696 --> 00:16:32.410 Nobody really wants to have you around for three months. 00:16:32.690 --> 00:16:33.087 Yeah. 00:16:33.139 --> 00:16:33.445 Yeah. 00:16:33.495 --> 00:16:42.500 Uh, so it is that thing of just emptiness and it's sort of, you know, it's supposed to be the, the sort of halcyonic time of your life, and yet you're stuck on your own. 00:16:42.751 --> 00:16:46.211 And you know, I felt that that was a, an interesting place to start a story. 00:16:46.331 --> 00:16:55.806 And then obviously I started work on this during the pandemic, so I needed a ready-made arena that I knew well emotionally'cause the research time was compromised. 00:16:56.452 --> 00:17:02.980 So I took that and I took the early'90s when I was a student as, as the setting because I just was... 00:17:03.195 --> 00:17:05.964 I, I was just compromised on the time I had to do research. 00:17:06.171 --> 00:17:11.042 Originally it was gonna be set in 1980, but I decided that was thematically not, not good. 00:17:11.134 --> 00:17:17.606 I find 1980 a really interesting year and I've always wanted to set something in it because it's not the'80s as we understand it. 00:17:17.606 --> 00:17:18.752 It's not the'70s. 00:17:18.772 --> 00:17:21.060 It's very much its own little island of time. 00:17:21.257 --> 00:17:25.116 But I found also that 1993 for me was a similar kind of thing. 00:17:25.116 --> 00:17:30.484 It's like not the'90s as we popularly remember it quite yet, but neither is it the'80s. 00:17:30.486 --> 00:17:33.027 It sort of hasn't decided what it's gonna be yet. 00:17:33.246 --> 00:17:39.282 And I find that if you're gonna set a story in the past, it has to feel really as unresolved as the present moment does. 00:17:39.415 --> 00:17:45.789 And I f- I like, so I like those eras where history hasn't quite jumped one way, waiting to resolve itself. 00:17:45.794 --> 00:17:51.733 It's also, it's a time where it's a, a, a tad bit isolating because we didn't have the connectivity that we have now, right? 00:17:51.736 --> 00:18:03.478 So like I was just thinking when you were talking about it, I was like,"God, when did those first cell phones, when did we start to get those first cell phones?" And, um I, I don't, you know, I don't think it was until the- 00:18:03.813 --> 00:18:06.462 I think it's the late'90s when people are finally, you know- 00:18:06.597 --> 00:18:07.791 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:07.827 --> 00:18:10.715 But there isn't, there is like a, a sense of isolation about the whole thing. 00:18:10.982 --> 00:18:16.048 Um- There's also a question I always like to ask people is, when did you first go on the internet, if they're, if they're of my age. 00:18:16.481 --> 00:18:21.998 And mine was 1994 or late'93 in the student house I was in. 00:18:21.998 --> 00:18:29.135 One of the people in my house managed to go online, you know, through a dial-up modem, and it took forever. 00:18:29.878 --> 00:18:30.260 Yeah. 00:18:30.348 --> 00:18:31.211 And, and it was text. 00:18:31.211 --> 00:18:32.530 It was like all text. 00:18:32.530 --> 00:18:34.115 And you were like,"This is terrible. 00:18:34.157 --> 00:18:40.584 This will never catch on." And it was, it was so primitive back then, and it's almost impossible now to imagine. 00:18:40.643 --> 00:18:41.877 To think about it, and how fast. 00:18:41.894 --> 00:18:42.031 Yeah. 00:18:42.050 --> 00:18:49.878 I still remember sitting in my apartment dialing into AOL and that forever, like that,"You've got mail." Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:18:49.923 --> 00:18:51.720 Oh, that's a really good impression. 00:18:51.740 --> 00:18:52.180 Well done. 00:18:52.182 --> 00:18:52.211 Thank 00:18:52.509 --> 00:18:52.580 you. 00:18:52.580 --> 00:18:56.222 Just waiting and waiting and like,"Ugh," and then, you know, busy right now. 00:18:56.289 --> 00:19:10.371 I also remember I was in the desert with friends and opening the New York Times book section, and there was a picture of the Amazon River, and it said,"Amazon is coming." And I was like,"What

does that mean?" And, uh, and it was like the world's biggest bookstore. 00:19:10.372 --> 00:19:12.952 I was like,"I don't even understand that." 00:19:13.217 --> 00:19:13.451 Yeah. 00:19:13.903 --> 00:19:15.826 So who would have known? 00:19:15.826 --> 00:19:15.836 Yeah. 00:19:15.972 --> 00:19:16.541 And here we are. 00:19:16.550 --> 00:19:17.890 Yeah, exactly. 00:19:17.913 --> 00:19:29.759 But I have written two novels now, one of which is set in the early'70s, one set in the early'90s, and I find that the landscape post-internet is, is a thing that I haven't yet grappled with. 00:19:29.882 --> 00:19:35.750 And I should, you know, I should get on that, but it is a different kind of, of horror to write, I think. 00:19:35.761 --> 00:19:36.694 Especially if you're writing horror. 00:19:36.696 --> 00:19:37.960 It's like a lot of horror... 00:19:38.326 --> 00:19:44.526 There's a great super cut someone put on YouTube of, People in horror films saying that their cell phone doesn't work. 00:19:44.819 --> 00:19:45.406 And it's- Yeah. 00:19:45.761 --> 00:19:51.284 you know, like, and it's every conceivable excuse from, like, it's been eaten to, like, there's no coverage or, like, there's, you know. 00:19:51.534 --> 00:19:54.670 And a lot of horror films simply collapse if, uh, if- 00:19:54.884 --> 00:19:55.135 Right 00:19:55.180 --> 00:19:58.906 if, you know, tr- traditional horror narratives collapse if you can just look stuff up. 00:19:59.515 --> 00:19:59.903 Uh- Truly 00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:01.673 including Solace- including Solace House, you know? 00:20:01.673 --> 00:20:05.729 It'd be very, it'd be a very different proposition if you could simply Google everything you found. 00:20:06.220 --> 00:20:07.114 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:20:07.928 --> 00:20:07.961 Mm-hmm. 00:20:07.961 --> 00:20:15.720 Uh, so there's an element of traditional storytelling that falls by the wayside, and I think, um, certain people have really engaged with that technology. 00:20:15.740 --> 00:20:27.058 And, you know, there are stories that are really, really good at doing that., Black Mirror obviously is exactly that, but I think there's an unwillingness to let go of the old tropes, and I kind of like that. 00:20:27.143 --> 00:20:28.671 I kind of like both approaches. 00:20:28.701 --> 00:20:36.259 I don't really think either is correct, you know, but it, it is a, it is a line in the sand where it's like, you know, you either choose to engage with this or you don't. 00:20:36.842 --> 00:20:37.192 Right. 00:20:37.192 --> 00:20:37.473 Right. 00:20:37.499 --> 00:20:49.770 J- even Jane Schoenbrun's book, which I read recently, Public Access Afterworld, which I really liked, a lot of it is VHS tapes, and it sort of revolves around these kids who are into They're retro kids who are watching VHS tapes. 00:20:49.862 --> 00:20:57.482 Because of the physicality of that media, that's what's that's, that's the thing that everyone likes, and it's sort of that's gone. 00:20:58.141 --> 00:21:03.265

But I think this all lends itself to the book too because these kids have to be connected. 00:21:03.265 --> 00:21:09.851 You're forced to interact with each other because you don't have the distraction of something else to pull you out of it, right? 00:21:09.894 --> 00:21:17.768 I mean, yes, they discover as they're doing this job these books that they come across, but generally speaking, it's almost like Survivor, right? 00:21:17.768 --> 00:21:25.755 They're all sitting around so much of the time talking, having dinner, just interacting with each other, and then in relation to the house, and then things start to go very bad. 00:21:25.981 --> 00:21:27.576 Was it always a first-person narrative? 00:21:28.357 --> 00:21:28.688 Yeah. 00:21:28.936 --> 00:21:31.887 I, I Uh, as well, that was a, a matter of convenience. 00:21:31.943 --> 00:21:38.538 I just, just removes, for me, an element of distance between the reader and the narrator. 00:21:38.957 --> 00:21:43.798 It's very efficient to go like this is, you know And I did toy with doing it third person. 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:44.400 It didn't work. 00:21:44.691 --> 00:21:46.821 So it, it just straight up didn't work. 00:21:46.826 --> 00:21:52.740 It was good to have that experience of going, right, that I know now which approach I should take because these are very fundamental questions if you're writing. 00:21:52.928 --> 00:22:04.538 So I like, with horror, I like that kind of thing where it just kind of straps you in, and it's, um It's interesting'cause Stephen King obviously is, is obviously the best at this and v- very seldom uses first person, I think. 00:22:05.009 --> 00:22:08.276 But he has that thing of it's like someone telling you a story. 00:22:08.277 --> 00:22:10.263 The narrator is almost a character in his books. 00:22:10.305 --> 00:22:16.867 I think if you're going to do horror, it kind of has to be, like, as if it belongs to a very old storytelling tradition. 00:22:16.883 --> 00:22:24.301 So you kind of have to, to enga- an engaging voice as a narrator, or because time was a factor, I, I just did it first person. 00:22:24.471 --> 00:22:32.384 Um, also as well because, like I said, Al- Alex is not me, but he had a lot of similar experiences, um, so it just proved easier to do that. 00:22:33.294 --> 00:22:58.147 I'm so curious, and again, this is all tricky'cause I don't wanna get into any spoiler territory'cause I think part of the joy and the appeal of the book is kind of the discovery, and it's also why I feel like this is a great book for a book club because it evokes a lot of questions, and asking questions, and what people think, and the perception of what do you think is happening versus what is happening, which is kind of what is happening to Alex as it's going through, yes? 00:22:58.578 --> 00:22:58.926 Yeah. 00:22:59.027 --> 00:23:04.663 But i find that such a kind of fundamental thing of, of lived experience that, you know, you... 00:23:05.109 --> 00:23:07.471 It's just, everything's just a best guess, you know? 00:23:07.535 --> 00:23:12.063 Everything that happens to you today is like, you know, you'll never understand one-tenth of it. 00:23:12.448 --> 00:23:21.221 You know, everything that's come your way is like, you see, you, you make your best of the information that comes your way, and you assemble some kind of narrative about it, but it's definitely not really what's happening. 00:23:21.267 --> 00:23:32.886 And I find that a kind of fundamental state of human being, really, like, which is obviously taken to the extreme in this book, but I find it comforting that we don't know as much as we think we do, and so that's in the book, definitely, I think. 00:23:32.965 --> 00:23:39.637 I'm so curious when you begin to put all this together in terms of your outlining and then you creating this cast of characters. 00:23:39.707 --> 00:23:45.749 Talk about that experience for a moment, because you have this, this group of kids who are so varied, and it... 00:23:45.749 --> 00:23:46.696 They never feel like... 00:23:46.699 --> 00:23:49.942 Sometimes you'll feel like people are plotted in as a device, right? 00:23:49.950 --> 00:23:51.392 To, to- Yeah kind of execute something. 00:23:51.396 --> 00:23:51.412 Yeah. 00:23:51.417 --> 00:23:53.321 And it doesn't feel like that in here. 00:23:53.692 --> 00:23:58.898 But I'm so curious about how you started to evolve these different characters or how you approached it. 00:23:59.329 --> 00:24:00.000 I don't know. 00:24:00.059 --> 00:24:03.804 It's a real cliché to go, you know, they're just sort of, you write them and they come alive on the page. 00:24:04.086 --> 00:24:04.125 You 00:24:05.173 --> 00:24:06.013 know, they, they just... 00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:09.515 And then they start talking to each other, and you, you're just an observer who listens. 00:24:09.568 --> 00:24:19.319 But having said that, there is an element of where you kind of set them off, and they do A- another thing is that,'cause it's-- I don't wanna say it's out and out horror because it isn't. 00:24:19.332 --> 00:24:26.294 If you go into this expecting Texas Chain Saw Massacre, you will be disappointed because it's, it's a bit more slow burn than that. 00:24:26.403 --> 00:24:30.315 But one of the rules of horror which is very helpful is you pick a situation. 00:24:30.315 --> 00:24:37.105 Once you have your situation, the people you then throw at it must be the worst possible people to be in that situation. 00:24:38.298 --> 00:24:43.099 So it's like, you know, so Jack Torrance is the worst person to look after the Overlook Hotel. 00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:47.016 He should not be within 100 miles of that hotel, and that's horror. 00:24:47.083 --> 00:24:58.771 The people in that story, they're, they are, they're all, you know, uh, Ty is the older post-grad, he's older than they are, but the rest of them are all teenagers, and they're late teenagers, and they are so kind of... 00:24:59.281 --> 00:25:01.021 They've

got no concept of risk. 00:25:01.042 --> 00:25:02.332 They've got no concept of... 00:25:02.369 --> 00:25:07.326 Their drug and alcohol intake is enormous, which is a very kinda early'90s thing as well, I think. 00:25:07.368 --> 00:25:14.515 So they are in, in many ways the wrong people to be in that, you know, which in narrative terms they all have... 00:25:14.545 --> 00:25:17.005 But I also like, you know, you said about assembling the characters. 00:25:17.229 --> 00:25:22.027 One of the things I had in the back of my mind that,'cause it is a book, this is slightly spoiler-ish territory. 00:25:22.471 --> 00:25:27.114 It's a book about madness to some degree, which is kind of the, the sort of core of it really. 00:25:27.439 --> 00:25:30.733 And, you know, people go mad in very, very personal ways. 00:25:31.220 --> 00:25:43.284 You know, the people become unbalanced in very ways unique to them, and I just felt that that was important for the characters, that if they started to fracture, that they would fracture along highly specific lines. 00:25:43.582 --> 00:25:49.959 And that was helpful in building who they were It's funny because, uh, I love Obviously, you, you can't help but look at reviews. 00:25:49.959 --> 00:25:52.540 You tell yourself you're not going to, but you sort of look at Goodreads or whatever. 00:25:52.752 --> 00:25:59.070 But what I love is that people either really like those characters or they absolutely hate them There's no ambivalence towards those characters. 00:25:59.078 --> 00:26:05.545 People are just kind of like,"Well, they're, um, yeah, I, I- they're all jerks, and I hate them." They're I just You know, I like spending time with these characters. 00:26:05.583 --> 00:26:08.621 It's interesting to me that, that they b- should be so polarized. 00:26:08.651 --> 00:26:21.901 Well, it's also the kind of thing if you're going into something that has this element of, you know, as the horror starts to build, you're thinking,"Well, people are gonna probably go down." And there is a kind of a schadenfreude of like, okay, who's getting it first, or how is it going to happen? 00:26:21.901 --> 00:26:22.384 Right. 00:26:22.402 --> 00:26:29.993 But it is also funny when you're putting a character, like there's a character of Helen, who's this very, you know, kind of uptight, very conservative religious student- 00:26:30.317 --> 00:26:30.519 Mm 00:26:30.529 --> 00:26:35.050 poised against someone like Clive or even Ruth, who's this goth girl. 00:26:35.065 --> 00:26:35.817 You already know. 00:26:35.817 --> 00:26:38.660 Again, it's like watching the Big Brother house or something. 00:26:38.660 --> 00:26:38.683 It's, yeah. 00:26:38.683 --> 00:26:40.228 You know, watching these people come together. 00:26:40.635 --> 00:26:41.403 I love Ruth. 00:26:41.470 --> 00:26:43.008 Ruth is my absolute favorite. 00:26:43.047 --> 00:26:43.933 She was a joy to write. 00:26:43.934 --> 00:27:02.970 And again, that thing of like she was just You know, you don't wanna go down to that pretentious road of again saying that characters become their own people, but she would always be surprising in whenever'Cause she had that sort of, you know,'cause it's the'90s, there's a lot of cynicism and a lot of sarcasm, often, like, almost aggressively so. 00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:06.118 But she's just hilarious I think every time she turns up. 00:27:06.118 --> 00:27:07.046 I just really like her. 00:27:07.657 --> 00:27:15.209 Um, Helen is interesting because there are a lot of people you meet at university when you're young, and they're like,"Why are you young?" Mm. 00:27:15.209 --> 00:27:15.646 "What are you... 00:27:15.669 --> 00:27:22.369 Why are you squandering this gift being middle-aged?" There are quite a lot of people like that, and I think that you, you sort of forget that. 00:27:22.385 --> 00:27:28.652 There's a, there's a sort of- TV image of young people sort of being massively hedonistic and sort of these party animals. 00:27:28.654 --> 00:27:39.738 And yet there are people you meet at university who are very serious and very buttoned down, and in many ways kind of like, you know, they're, they're in their 40s already, and it's like I did want to want a character like that. 00:27:39.778 --> 00:27:43.107 So w- they weren't all, uh, sort of hedonistic cliches really. 00:27:43.722 --> 00:27:44.575 No, it's hilarious. 00:27:44.576 --> 00:27:47.282 I mean, she very much is like, you know, which one of these is not like the other. 00:27:47.757 --> 00:27:48.779 Um, but- Yeah. 00:27:48.784 --> 00:27:48.891 I, I 00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:49.898 like Helen as well. 00:27:49.901 --> 00:27:54.671 I just sort of, you know, she's, she's not wrong 100% of the time'cause that would be insufferable. 00:27:54.857 --> 00:27:56.628 A lot of the time she is the voice of sense. 00:27:56.630 --> 00:27:57.255 It's just that she's quite- 00:27:57.268 --> 00:27:57.755 That's it 00:27:57.835 --> 00:27:59.011 so yeah. 00:27:59.067 --> 00:28:04.789 She's the one who says,"Let's not do any of this," and they all kind of laugh it off, and it's sort of like,"I just should listen to her." 00:28:05.213 --> 00:28:09.464 Yeah, also the whole idea of youth anyway, that you feel invincible. 00:28:09.488 --> 00:28:10.464 There's no fear of death. 00:28:10.473 --> 00:28:11.248 There's no fear of anything. 00:28:11.248 --> 00:28:16.689 Like, when you're that young, life is your oyster, especially at university'cause I think, you know... 00:28:16.726 --> 00:28:17.856 I look at it with my own kids. 00:28:17.856 --> 00:28:20.683 You're in a space where everything is being paid for and covered. 00:28:20.683 --> 00:28:21.368 You have a house. 00:28:21.663 --> 00:28:22.553 You have living arrangements. 00:28:22.554 --> 00:28:23.174 You have food. 00:28:23.186 --> 00:28:24.356 You have everything you need. 00:28:24.356 --> 00:28:30.164 So it is that kind of period where you're on top of the world, and it's c- it's, it's like pseudo-adulting.

00:28:30.181 --> 00:28:38.873 Like, you're not quite- Yeah there yet, but you can pretend that like,"Oh, we can make these decisions, and we're, you know, we're in control of everything," when you're really not. 00:28:38.916 --> 00:28:47.278 And so for all of them to be in this situation, especially when things begin to get crazy, and how they all start to interact with each other, it's great. 00:28:47.633 --> 00:28:49.230 They're much more sort of honest though. 00:28:49.257 --> 00:28:57.743 There, there, there's the bit at the beginning where Alex is watching all his friends leave for summer, and he re- he, he says they sort of shed their university personas. 00:28:57.806 --> 00:29:01.483 And the people you meet who are the core cast of the book don't do that. 00:29:01.483 --> 00:29:07.398 They're very much who they are, which I kind of wanted to build in because I felt that they were more I don't know. 00:29:07.398 --> 00:29:09.092 There has to be a sort of Again, it's horror. 00:29:09.097 --> 00:29:12.239 It's like, all right, if something bad is gonna happen to those characters, you have to feel it. 00:29:12.267 --> 00:29:17.111 And in order for that to happen, you have to feel some kind of sympathy with those characters. 00:29:17.145 --> 00:29:24.464 In the first book I wrote, there's a, there's a very I, I can't really spoiler that, but a key character, something terrible happens to them. 00:29:24.851 --> 00:29:29.721 Uh, and a lot of people said,"Oh, that was my favorite character." It's like, you have to miss them. 00:29:29.730 --> 00:29:33.729 If other characters in this book are gonna miss them too, you as a reader have to miss them. 00:29:34.060 --> 00:29:44.888 And so you have to feel that there's something at stake here because otherwise it's just a bunch of, you know, to use the Star Trek term, it's just red shirts who are sort of people you, you've never met, you know, where terrible things are happening to them. 00:29:44.891 --> 00:29:48.888 It's It makes more sense to have much more rounded characters who, who you miss. 00:29:49.198 --> 00:29:52.497 Okay, so I want to talk about The Fairy Feller's Masterstroke. 00:29:52.861 --> 00:29:52.957 Yes. 00:29:52.968 --> 00:30:01.474 The painting, um, by Richard Dadd because- Yeah it gets referenced early on by Ella, who's one of the students and who kind of piques Alex's interest. 00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:14.712 But talk about this painting for a second and, um Because first of all, I have to tell you, like, one of the things I love about books or love about a book, and this is one of them, is when something's referenced, when should I immediately look up and say,"Is he making this up or is this a real thing?" Yeah. 00:30:14.712 --> 00:30:17.692 And so to see it as a real thing was kind of incredible. 00:30:17.694 --> 00:30:22.392 And then also, I know you've talked about it on, on social media before and what the painting means to you. 00:30:22.730 --> 00:30:22.755 Yeah. 00:30:22.755 -->

00:30:24.684 It's always been in my life, that painting. 00:30:24.686 --> 00:30:28.363 I saw it first when I was a kid, I think, and it's not an image you forget. 00:30:28.553 --> 00:30:40.214 It's, um For those who don't know, it's a, it's an insanely detailed depiction of a thing that's alluded to in Romeo and Juliet where, um, a hazelnut is being split. 00:30:40.556 --> 00:30:44.518 Richard Dadd as an artist was in an asylum when he painted this painting. 00:30:44.528 --> 00:30:46.943 He was in Bethlem Asylum because he killed his father. 00:30:46.944 --> 00:30:57.826 He had a, what we would now know as a schizophrenic breakdown during a tour of the Middle East, and he killed his father and then attempted to kill someone else and then ended up in the Bethlem Asylum. 00:30:57.939 --> 00:30:59.634 So when you see it, I mean, you often see it. 00:30:59.636 --> 00:31:04.073 I think I must have seen it in a children's book or a book that the, the children were expected to read. 00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:07.258 I think it may have been one of the Reader's Digest books of folklore or something like that. 00:31:07.423 --> 00:31:13.175 Um, but you see it, and it, it doesn't have an eeriness to it because it's, it's not an eerie painting. 00:31:13.175 --> 00:31:14.749 It's weirdly kind of a happy painting. 00:31:14.963 --> 00:31:15.093 Mm-hmm. 00:31:15.109 --> 00:31:18.570 There is such an intensity to it, um, which is... 00:31:18.594 --> 00:31:23.395 It's on display at the moment in the, the Royal Academy in London, so I went to s- I went to see it literally last week. 00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:27.384 Um, I've seen it, you know, various exhibitions, but it is... 00:31:27.556 --> 00:31:32.288 I went with a friend, and she went,"It's tiny," the minute we saw it'cause she is familiar through it in a book. 00:31:32.288 --> 00:31:33.798 She went,"It's absolutely tiny." 00:31:33.843 --> 00:31:34.609 I thought the same thing. 00:31:34.611 --> 00:31:36.565 I s-'cause I saw the picture of you on Instagram with it. 00:31:36.578 --> 00:31:36.588 Yeah. 00:31:36.588 --> 00:31:37.319 And I was like,"Wow." 00:31:37.715 --> 00:31:39.565 Yeah, you expect it to cover one wall. 00:31:39.570 --> 00:31:50.509 It's like- Yes and he worked on this painting for about eight, nine, 10 years, and it, it is, it looks like it's been worked on for about 10 years, um, because it, it absolutely swarms with detail. 00:31:50.509 --> 00:31:53.576 It's almost like something under a, a, a slide under a microscope. 00:31:53.585 --> 00:31:59.768 There's just so much going on in it, and it's just full of stuff. 00:31:59.796 --> 00:32:00.032 You know? 00:32:00.317 --> 00:32:07.436 It's like there are little stories in there and allusions and, and you know, and it's a, it has been an inspiration to quite a lot of artists. 00:32:07.438 --> 00:32:09.503 You know, the Queen song about it is in the book. 00:32:09.537 --> 00:32:13.275 Alan Moore talks about it in one of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen volumes. 00:32:13.318 --> 00:32:14.346 And you know, it, it's... 00:32:15.284 --> 00:32:22.852 Dadd's tragedy is sort of separate to that picture even though it's inextricably bound up with it, and I find it... 00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:23.797 I don't know. 00:32:23.798 --> 00:32:25.701 I just, I just really like it. 00:32:25.701 --> 00:32:27.964 I d- I really like art. 00:32:28.164 --> 00:32:29.664 I'm a, a fan of art. 00:32:29.728 --> 00:32:35.673 I wanted to be an artist as a teenager and then, thank God, had a realization that I was never gonna be good enough. 00:32:35.780 --> 00:32:37.460 You know, I mean, that saved me a lot of time. 00:32:37.698 --> 00:32:43.911 But I have always had an appreciation of art, and I really like it. 00:32:43.932 --> 00:32:47.230 Again, there's a thing where I think it, a lot of people feel excluded from it. 00:32:47.372 --> 00:32:55.949 There's a lot of snobbishness about it, but I think what I really like is when something, you have a visceral reaction to, and that painting is something I think everyone has a visceral reaction to. 00:32:56.005 --> 00:33:01.255 You know, it, it's, it's charming and almost overbearingly so, and it's full of hints. 00:33:01.470 --> 00:33:05.696 It, it seems to hint at a story that's not quite finished, and I just, I just love it. 00:33:06.344 --> 00:33:34.824 I find it fascinating with this particular painting the way it's used but also his story and kind of this schizophrenic break In relation again to the book, the stuff that's mined here, that again, like as I finished the book and I was like,"Holy shit, I..." It's one of those things where I had to go back,'cause again, I, I'm not gonna give anything away, but I found it was almost by happenstance because I marked that earlier, uh, early passage in the book that led me to the end, and I was all of a sudden like,"Oh my God. 00:33:35.396 --> 00:33:37.430 Oh my God." Um- 00:33:37.959 --> 00:33:41.019 See, see I love stuff like this in stories myself. 00:33:41.019 --> 00:33:44.071 I lo- I really like it when you have those rabbit holes that you can go down. 00:33:44.520 --> 00:33:44.803 Oh. 00:33:44.817 --> 00:33:46.839 Obviously I've, this is clearly what I've done here. 00:33:47.124 --> 00:33:50.576 But, um, the long poem that's in Solace House that runs all the way through- 00:33:50.576 --> 00:33:51.926 Yes, I was gonna ask you about that. 00:33:51.949 --> 00:33:52.211 Yeah 00:33:52.221 --> 00:33:59.465 the section, that is based on the very long doggerel poem that Dad wrote about... 00:33:59.615 --> 00:34:00.836 It's called Elimination of a Picture. 00:34:00.838 --> 00:34:03.404 It's actually got a longer title than that, but I can't remember off the top of my head. 00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:11.237 But Dad obviously like, you know, like there wasn't enough detail in The Fairy Feller's Masterstroke, and so he decided to write a poem alongside it. 00:34:11.577 --> 00:34:26.353 And in that, that poem, which is couplets, he

names all of the characters in the canvas and what they're doing and all their relationships to, as if to sort of like reinforce their meaning, as if like rendering them in this almost, you know, th- th- this maddening detail was somehow not enough. 00:34:26.900 --> 00:34:30.449 Um, and I find that, that as a piece of Victoriana is fascinating. 00:34:30.588 --> 00:34:34.949 And it was, it's also based on that and In Memoriam by Tennyson, which I think is in quatrains. 00:34:34.949 --> 00:34:35.945 I haven't looked at it for a while. 00:34:36.083 --> 00:34:40.201 But yeah, so I had this idea of writing this very long poem that you could take or leave, by the way. 00:34:40.313 --> 00:34:41.521 That's the main thing. 00:34:41.849 --> 00:34:47.338 It's like if there's a literary device in a book You should be able to, like, take or leave it. 00:34:47.420 --> 00:34:49.059 Get the general idea and move on. 00:34:49.061 --> 00:34:52.811 If it's, if it's bumming you out reading the poetry, you should just be able to move on. 00:34:53.192 --> 00:34:55.893 Um, hopefully that won't happen, but it is in there. 00:34:56.148 --> 00:34:56.431 I... 00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:57.088 As a... 00:34:57.135 --> 00:35:04.659 When I decided that that's what I was gonna be doing, I went away and reread Pale Fire by Nabokov, which is a book I really like. 00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:09.003 'Cause I, I just thought how much poetry will people tolerate in a book? 00:35:09.052 --> 00:35:11.253 And, uh, that's got way more poetry than mine. 00:35:11.259 --> 00:35:20.942 It begins with a thousand-line poem or a 999-line poem, which you are expected to go through before you've read the manuscript. 00:35:20.985 --> 00:35:25.543 So, you know, I felt kind of justified in doing what I'd done in there. 00:35:25.644 --> 00:35:30.496 That feels like that should be one of the books on the literary canon that you had to have when you went into university. 00:35:30.994 --> 00:35:31.204 Yeah. 00:35:31.204 --> 00:35:31.213 Yes. 00:35:31.545 --> 00:35:32.902 I discovered that years afterwards. 00:35:32.903 --> 00:35:35.809 It's always the way that, like, a lot of the books that I absolutely love, I didn't... 00:35:35.851 --> 00:35:37.753 Like, I mentioned Olaf Stapledon earlier. 00:35:38.210 --> 00:35:42.672 Uh, things like The Third Policeman, which is a book I absolutely adore by Flann O'Brien. 00:35:43.074 --> 00:35:43.626 Have you read that? 00:35:44.030 --> 00:35:44.530 No. 00:35:44.670 --> 00:35:44.943 No. 00:35:44.967 --> 00:35:45.422 Oh, you should do. 00:35:46.304 --> 00:35:46.708 Okay. 00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:54.063 And it's, it's probably the darkest subject matter available written in a kind of humorous, whimsical Irish way. 00:35:54.166 --> 00:36:11.436 And I love that, and I think that's the, the, the bit that came out of Solace House was if you're gonna have all this highfalutin, pretentious architecture in there, um, about the last living Victorian and his battle with sanity, the people against that have to be kind of not interested in it to a degree. 00:36:11.911 --> 00:36:14.545 So they're just, you know, they, they, they swear a lot. 00:36:14.594 --> 00:36:15.641 They drink a lot. 00:36:16.182 --> 00:36:17.362 They make jokes about it. 00:36:17.362 --> 00:36:18.273 They're inappropriate. 00:36:18.291 --> 00:36:18.882 And they are the... 00:36:18.927 --> 00:36:21.257 Again, they're the wrong people to be investigating this. 00:36:21.286 --> 00:36:23.653 They do not take it seriously until it's far too late. 00:36:23.744 --> 00:36:28.987 Did you know when you went in where this was gonna end up, or did some of it just reveal itself as you went through? 00:36:29.025 --> 00:36:31.264 I always knew where it's going because I always do. 00:36:31.268 --> 00:36:32.820 I think you have a responsibility. 00:36:33.014 --> 00:36:41.788 If you're doing a complicated story, you must know where it ends, and you must be able to answer every single question put to you about the architecture of that book because I... 00:36:41.818 --> 00:36:42.233 It is... 00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:47.822 I don't like things where it, it feels like people are wasting your time, where they haven't worked it out themselves. 00:36:47.884 --> 00:36:50.416 I find it very insulting to the reader to do that. 00:36:50.523 --> 00:36:54.856 So yes, I did know where it was going, but I do like to have the material surprise me. 00:36:54.951 --> 00:37:01.902 So the idea of the characters being portrayed to some extent within The Fairy Feller's Master-Stroke, which is not a spoiler, but it's there. 00:37:02.168 --> 00:37:08.447 Um, but that came from just scrutinizing the painting again, looking at it, thinking the, the cast of this book is actually in this painting. 00:37:09.038 --> 00:37:12.197 Um, and so stuff like that, you want it to surprise you, you know. 00:37:12.197 --> 00:37:20.175 And I find that those connections come if you, if you have your obsessions within your, your field of what you're focusing on, that those connections will start to become apparent. 00:37:20.931 --> 00:37:23.257 It's like almost like the reverse peel of an onion, right? 00:37:23.257 --> 00:37:26.800 You have the center that you know what holds, and then you can layer it, right? 00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:28.960 You can put, like, the, the poetry on top of it. 00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:30.728 You can add this layer to it and this layer to it. 00:37:30.746 --> 00:37:31.815 That's what I imagine- 00:37:32.815 --> 00:37:37.985 It's interesting working with Joel because he's a, you know, like he's way more successful as a comedy writer than I ever was. 00:37:37.985 --> 00:37:41.001 I mean, he, he's written a book about comedy where he refers to this thing called the bucket. 00:37:41.061 --> 00:37:44.255 You know, whereas if you have like in Spinal Tap, it's a mock documentary, you know? 00:37:44.275 --> 00:37:44.481 And that- 00:37:44.501 --> 00:37:44.746 Yeah 00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:49.817 Three,

Three Idiots, and that's a really solid bucket for putting all the comedy inside. 00:37:49.936 --> 00:37:51.914 And I find it's the same with writing. 00:37:51.914 --> 00:38:09.753 If you've got a character like Leo who's an archeologist on his own terms, then you can talk about deep time, you can talk about civilization, you can talk about stone circles, you can talk about all of these things which are germane to the book because that character is interested in them, and that is the lens through which he'll see those things. 00:38:09.762 --> 00:38:11.996 He's a very good bucket to put those concerns in. 00:38:12.076 --> 00:38:14.610 You, again, you have to like your characters. 00:38:14.612 --> 00:38:16.327 I, I really like Leo. 00:38:16.327 --> 00:38:21.344 I like all of them, but um, it's, it's hard in horror because you have to make them suffer. 00:38:23.255 --> 00:38:23.492 Yeah. 00:38:23.539 --> 00:38:41.224 I was just thinking, and maybe this is also because of your background, but it's, it's very cinematic, and I think that's the other reason I thought about the Ari Aster thing because I was thinking of just his, the visuals of some of his things that he does, and there's a sequence, and this is not, I'm not giving anything away, but there's a kind of a tableau of three characters at a table. 00:38:41.563 --> 00:38:46.541 It just ha- felt very much like something that would be in that world to me. 00:38:46.882 --> 00:38:49.925 And um, so it was so evocative and haunting and- 00:38:49.936 --> 00:38:53.387 That's, that's really lovely to hear because it, it is a lot of work. 00:38:53.445 --> 00:38:55.206 It's a lot of hard work putting those things in. 00:38:55.206 --> 00:38:59.463 And I really, I like- Visual writing. 00:38:59.465 --> 00:39:06.940 I like to have a, you know, I, again, Stephen King, it's like he's really good at having a shorthand visual by which that story will be known. 00:39:07.356 --> 00:39:12.675 You know, if I go, there's a, there's a, a red classic car, you know which book I'm talking about. 00:39:12.922 --> 00:39:13.346 Right. 00:39:13.574 --> 00:39:16.114 A, a, a young girl at a prom covered in pig's blood. 00:39:16.206 --> 00:39:16.445 There you go. 00:39:16.445 --> 00:39:17.916 It's a massively There's a hotel. 00:39:17.987 --> 00:39:19.318 A rabid dog, right? 00:39:19.380 --> 00:39:20.273 Yeah, exactly. 00:39:20.273 --> 00:39:31.132 You know, even if the book itself may not be the best, you know which book I'm talking about because he has a very strong sense of, you know, visual imagery, and it's really, it's shorthand for that story. 00:39:31.463 --> 00:39:33.998 So you should have like that and, and the detail of things. 00:39:33.998 --> 00:39:34.985 I, I really do- 00:39:35.114 --> 00:39:42.737 I think I'm gonna write in the notes of this episode, um, answer what those four Stephen King books were for all the, uh 00:39:43.918 --> 00:39:44.976 There are loads of them. 00:39:45.048 --> 00:39:47.293 I mean, yeah, but you can now think of all of the Yeah. 00:39:47.318 --> 00:39:54.771 It's, I But I like to have a strong With The Apparition House, I also like to boil down the stories in one word, which I think you should try and do. 00:39:55.436 --> 00:39:57.376 Uh, so for The Apparition House, it was haunted. 00:39:57.918 --> 00:39:58.217 I just think- 00:39:58.246 --> 00:39:58.710 For this? 00:39:58.735 --> 00:39:59.244 What's it like? 00:39:59.860 --> 00:40:01.128 No, no, for the first one. 00:40:01.275 --> 00:40:01.688 Um- 00:40:01.963 --> 00:40:05.043 Okay, so what would your, what would your word be for Solace House? 00:40:05.094 --> 00:40:05.989 It was madness. 00:40:06.172 --> 00:40:08.411 I just- Yes what's it like to be mad? 00:40:09.228 --> 00:40:20.672 But, um, I, I wanted to write something that was not flippant about those concerns,'cause if, I think if you are writing about those concerns, again, like with the story of Richard Dadd, I just feel terribly bad for him. 00:40:20.672 --> 00:40:21.463 I just feel really bad. 00:40:21.463 --> 00:40:25.208 You know, that he was in the grip of something that was far stronger than he was. 00:40:25.215 --> 00:40:27.891 The delusions that beset him were just awful for him. 00:40:27.891 --> 00:40:29.760 I mean, I, you know, I know that he killed his father. 00:40:29.795 --> 00:40:42.429 It's a horrible story all round, and from that he managed to wrest this beautiful image, and I think that's, you know So you want to sort of, you don't want to disrespect those people and your own knowledge of these things. 00:40:42.516 --> 00:40:44.523 Well, Will, the book, it's so good. 00:40:44.793 --> 00:40:45.943 Please go out and get the book. 00:40:45.965 --> 00:40:47.715 Buy independent if you can. 00:40:47.838 --> 00:40:49.096 Um, but it's really fantastic. 00:40:49.099 --> 00:40:53.527 Also, I have to say they did such an incredible job in the inside boards. 00:40:53.527 --> 00:40:54.679 They're just beautiful. 00:40:55.213 --> 00:40:55.856 Um- 00:40:56.197 --> 00:41:00.748 This is the people at Atlantic, and this is Holly Battle who designed the cover, which is I love the cover so much. 00:41:01.206 --> 00:41:05.853 I'm just gonna tell you that the seed of-- I always keep a notebook for visual images. 00:41:05.858 --> 00:41:06.159 There we go. 00:41:06.161 --> 00:41:12.873 The, if you go back to the endpapers, the, uh, the, the, that image there- Yes um, that's from- Ah, 00:41:12.943 --> 00:41:13.623 that's yours. 00:41:14.036 --> 00:41:28.402 That is my daughter and I in the first few months of lockdown We painted over that just, you know, she was three and a half, almost four at that point, and we painted over that and then it was just like a stupid thing to do because it was in a magazine. 00:41:28.882 --> 00:41:31.835 And then I remember thinking,"Who, who is that? 00:41:32.385 --> 00:41:41.483 And why, why would they pa-" And then it just, it just exploded from there, that end of things, because I needed, I knew that there would be somebody who'd been an inhabitant of this house, and I just... 00:41:41.697 --> 00:41:43.690 That was the key that unlocked it really was having this. 00:41:43.690 --> 00:41:48.193 So it's like the sort of serendipity of, of that chaotic time of that first lockdown. 00:41:48.699 --> 00:41:49.559 Wow. 00:41:49.820 --> 00:41:50.297 Yeah. 00:41:50.300 --> 00:41:56.873 And it was just literally looking and going,"Who would paint over every, not just one picture, but every picture of themselves? 00:41:57.389 --> 00:42:02.307 What would cause someone to do that?" And that was, that was obviously, like, very helpful to- 00:42:02.422 --> 00:42:03.574 And Richard Fayne was born. 00:42:04.277 --> 00:42:04.565 Yeah. 00:42:04.795 --> 00:42:05.358 Exactly. 00:42:05.492 --> 00:42:05.809 Yeah, yeah. 00:42:05.952 --> 00:42:06.487 There he is. 00:42:07.070 --> 00:42:07.831 Yes, there he is. 00:42:08.447 --> 00:42:10.016 Um- Well, it's fantastic. 00:42:10.054 --> 00:42:11.067 Congratulations. 00:42:11.068 --> 00:42:13.148 And I'm going back to your first book now because I, I... 00:42:13.210 --> 00:42:16.297 like I said, I love this so much that, uh, I can't wait to read the first. 00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:16.827 Please do. 00:42:16.827 --> 00:42:17.277 Yeah, yeah. 00:42:17.295 --> 00:42:19.240 So honestly, I'd love, love to hear what you think about that. 00:42:19.240 --> 00:42:19.251 Yeah. 00:42:19.286 --> 00:42:19.693 So yeah. 00:42:19.697 --> 00:42:20.027 No. 00:42:20.362 --> 00:42:20.679 All right. 00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:21.657 Well, thank you so much. 00:42:21.661 --> 00:42:22.001 Thank you so much 00:42:22.322 --> 00:42:22.342 for... 00:42:22.342 --> 00:42:22.911 No, I... 00:42:22.942 --> 00:42:24.032 the pleasure was all mine. 00:42:24.371 --> 00:42:26.626 And, uh, uh, thank you. 00:42:26.688 --> 00:42:27.755 Thank you again, Will. 00:42:27.829 --> 00:42:34.565 If you liked today's episode or other episodes of Behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. 00:42:34.860 --> 00:42:45.579 Also, it's my weekly ask to say if you have the time, what would be really helpful is if you can give the show five stars, and if you're so inclined, please write a review as well. 00:42:45.744 --> 00:42:53.753 All of these things are incredibly helpful to bring the podcast in front of more people so that I can continue to bring you conversations like this one. 00:42:53.869 --> 00:43:02.141 I'll be back next week with another episode, and until then, you can always find me on Instagram, YouTube, and Substack at Brett's Book Stack. 00:43:02.396 --> 00:43:04.880 And as always, thanks for listening