Stop Bleeding Downstream: Lee Wainwright on First Responder Mental Health & The Upstream Initiative bölümünün tam dökümü

like, I want you to come home because you know you're working night shift and yeah. So I took a full time day shift slot doing critical care dispatch and Did that and decided to take the jump to go into being a paramedic. so I worked full-time, went through the paramedic class, and then worked part-time as well, and then I became a full-time paramedic in 2012 and stayed there through 2021, and then I went And applied as a for a captain spot at a local agency and became a cabin and logistics manager. And then I was Kevin Whitsell: Nice. Lee Wainright: there for three years and someone offered me more money to go somewhere else to be a paramedic, less stress, less headache. you know, I I've kind of started falling your show after angel contact. I mean and I've learned that, you know, sometimes we do things for a reason. We don't we don't know what the reasons are. And It comes to find out for me now that it's more in the mental health and realm of things to say, Hey look, there's other people that need help out here. So that's kinda the long drawn out portion. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, no, I love no. I love long drawn out. You'll learn that about me. As Angel can attest, I I tend to go over my time limits and talk a lot. Angel: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: yeah, and I was I fa I failed as a host to be honest with you. I completely failed. Angel, how are you doing today? I didn't even acknowledge you. horrible, horrible nonprofit leader, podcast host, whatever you want to call me. God. Angel: I'm good. I'm good. Look, it's just known that if they say you, then I'm tagging along somewhere, so. Kevin Whitsell: Well, that's pretty much how it is. Angel has just as well changed her official title to assistant because she keeps my life in order, Angel: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: and does a fantastic job, a much better job than I could do of it, to be honest with you. Clearly, 'cause she recognized the need. So Lee, you do all this and you go through this 30-year career, you go through this all these transitions and all these different things. And you mentioned having a full-time job while you go to prayer school. I think a lot of people that listen to this show can can definitely relate to that. I know Angel and I can because we both held down full-time jobs, and that's a challenge, that's a struggle, right? But what over the last three decades really weighs the most on you about this job? Lee Wainright: Well, I think it's the fact that for the past three decades that nobody's really recognized that there are issues out there. so I started off in ninety six and I can relate to calls now looking back saying, We ran these calls and when you get back, nobody talks about Nobody says, Hey man, how are you doing? one of my classes, I I show a picture of me at eighteen or nineteen years old and I'm like, What do these people that's been doing this for thirty years say to this eighteen or nineteen year old that says, How are you gonna look thirty years down the road? And so, The biggest thing for me that I see now is there's a lot of changing and it's for the better is still a slow, slow process. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah and I Angel: That was actually one of the things that I asked over the weekend to the panel was if you could look back, what would you tell the guide the very first day walking into your job? how would you explain to them to take care of their mental health moving forward? Lee Wainright: So now I've developed a class that we do for new hire orientation and it's actually the going upstream mental health and actually the going upstream initiative or upstream initiative and is giving resources to the new hires. 'Cause most of these kids are nineteen years old, eighteen, you know, they're fairly young, they've never seen this stuff. You know And in the class, you don't really see it. You don't hear it as much. we dumb it down a little bit. And so giving them the resources that they need, saying, hey, look, it's okay to say, I'm not okay with this. It's okay to say, hey, I need a therapist. Look, that's the best thing I ever did was get a therapist. Because now Kevin Whitsell: Same brother. Lee Wainright: I can say it. I go to my therapist once a month and I can get it out. So I give the resources that they need and whether they use it or not, I can't you you can lead the horse to water, you can't make them drink, but Angel: That's right. Kevin Whitsell: That's it. Lee Wainright: just trying to put the resources out there and saying, Hey look, this is okay to to utilize these and so now it's like more and more you're starting to see the newer age utilizing those resources. Kevin Whitsell: And I think that Really across the board we've done a poor job over the last I've been in it for twenty years and I know in twenty years we've done a pretty horrible job at preparing people for what is to come, what you will see, and preparing the mind for that. I know and I said this this last weekend at our conference. Obviously this is recorded far, far ahead in what I like to call radio time. But when this is recorded, we're just a few few days past our conference and I s I got on stage and and I literally said when I got into this I was a very sheltered Southern Baptist good little homeschool boy that that had no idea of what the world was. not in its reality. You know, you see it see it presented to you on news media and things like that, but nobody ever told me what it was like to walk into somebody's house and there was a dead body and cracked cocaine laying on the table. I mean I didn't even Lee Wainright: Or the or the gun in the corner. Kevin Whitsell: Or the gun in the corner, right, just all these things. So the interesting thing that I love about you when I was writing this and and researching you is like I almost feel like with the with the exception of of just a few, you've worn almost every uniform in the house. I mean the closet has been yours, essentially. So when you look at it and you say, Okay, I've

been a dispatcher, I've been in the back of the truck, I've dispatched numerous different, you know, different disciplines and and from law enforcement to critical care. What is the differences you saw from sitting at a desk and then being on the back of the rig when you talk about how this job weighs on you? Lee Wainright: So from the dispatch perspective, your mind's a horrible thing because you hear these calls and your mind is picturing it and it's picturing it for the worse. And it could be for the worse, it could be for the better, but you don't you don't generally get that resolve or outcome. You know, on on the truck, I can get some kind of closure where I can go to the doctor and say, hey. what did y'all ever find out? Or in North Carolina, I don't know about where you guys are it but a lot of the paramedics are now doing medical examiner stuff, so it's like, hey, what did y'all ever find out? so I think the closure is the biggest part in the in the dispatch world. And then two, it's just now becoming where people are even recognizing dispatch. as a first responder, so the help that we're getting either in the the fire, police or EMS, they were being left behind. And EMS is still the stepbrother or stepchild of it, but I feel like sometimes the dispatchers are even further behind us. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, I would have to agree with that, especially after doing dispatch myself. Now I ever did I never did nine one one dispatch. I was strictly pediatric and demonated or critical care dispatch. But even in that, I think that especially for mine, I worked at a hospital based system and I think the the closure and the follow up and all the things that you get to have are are really important. And I didn't always get that when I was just, Because I was in a hospital system when I dispatched, it was easy to get that follow-up. I think if you're in an 901 system dispatch, you don't get that. Lee Wainright: Mm-mm. Kevin Whitsell: but even on the truck, I mean, we didn't have a lot of times that we truly got to follow up where we are, especially in rural North Mississippi. You know, you may know the coroner, but he's either a not going to tell you anything. Or you never get back to him quick enough for him to have the information 'cause you're constantly on a run. so I think that's a good good takeaway that dispatch does get left behind sometimes. And for me being a dispatch, the biggest mental health takeaway was I knew what to do, I knew what these kids needed, but I couldn't do it. It was a helplessness. I was stuck at a desk. and many times I had supervisors who had to say, No, you can't go down to the ER to meet that ambulance because you're gonna get involved. So I had to stay Lee Wainright: Mm-hmm. So you're already involved. Kevin Whitsell: at my desk. You're already involved, but more so involved than I definitely should have been. Angel: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: and and was there any defining moment in your career that you realized that the

public safety culture was failing to keep people basically alive 'cause we had so many commit suicide. And still today we have that issue but but definitely there's more resources and outlets for those people now than maybe there ever has been. Lee Wainright: So I didn't realize it and it I tell the story in my my class, but th so like I lost both my parents within a year of each other. Didn't really have a close relationship with my father, but you know, so you lose them within a year, you're a supervisor, you're going to all these calls, you're going to the bad calls and you see the worst of the worst. and then when I left there I went back on the road and some of the calls I didn't realize were triggers. So a suicide or someone with dementia that so my mother we thought she was in a we were kinda leaning towards she was possibly gonna be diagnosed with dementia. And so I I had a a death by suicide where it triggered it out and I'm sitting here like, God and and one of the guys was like, Hey, y'all need to check on Lee, and and they're like, he he's he's good, he's fear support, he'll He'll know. He he knows who to ask. And so March sixth I totally lost it on the on a coworker and probably said some stuff I didn't. And you know, management one one is if you see a change in your employees, you probably need to find out what's going on. Well, I ended up taking a write up. And that's when I realized I didn't realize I ha I personally had a problem until I took the write-up and when I was in management, someone that someone told me they were like, Look A write up's gonna do one of two things. It's gonna either get them to straighten up and figure out what's going on, or they're gonna say, I don't care. And I was the kind that said, I gotta figure out what's going on. So I was doing another debrief and I met Aaron Beck and a guy named BK with NC Delete and they like, Hey, we got this thing next week. So I went and it was actually my first SISM in April of twenty twenty-five. And it was eye opening because I I thought I was going to get stuff to help other people. But I realized then that I I was the one that really needed the help. And so when you say when do you realize that the system's failing it, well that was the point. That you know, after that three days you're like, Holy s holy smokes. We need this for a lot more people and we need to be pushing it out there more. But you also have to have your management back that up. So so I went to the do my debrief and then in September of last year or twenty twenty five I was in a peer support class and then September seventh we had a coworker, a new hire, die by suicide. And so we get this text message for the peer support group, Hey, we've had a death by s you know, of a coworker. Then we detect the email. So and I and I I stop right there and I'm like, could this have been prevented? Look at all the history of what we do and say, could some of the stuff that's happened over the years have been pre prevented? for years just suck it up, you'll be fine, don't worry about it, And now we're looking at it. Nobody says, hey, there's a therapist, they say, Hey, here's EAP. But it's not the same. So for me that's where I realized it took me almost towards the end of a career to to say there's a problem here and and realize it, first in myself and now in other folks. Angel: For sure. I can totally relate to that until things are out of the norm and somebody brings it to your recognition one way or another. So you spent significant time as a dispatcher and a critical care communications specialist. Dispatchers carry a very specific type of trauma that I really didn't realize until we started doing these interviews. Lee Wainright: Yes, I am. Angel: Hearing the pure terror without even getting the physical closure on the scene. How did Lee Wainright: Absolutely. Angel: that headset time impact you? Lee Wainright: So a lot of people don't realize, we're talking about the visualization in your mind, but as a dispatcher, you don't really see what's going on, but either I can hear Angel on the radio or I can hear Kevin on the radio and I know your voice. And it's just that slight slight change whether it's up or down that you're like, something's wrong. It becomes second nature for you guys. And so For me w as the dispatch time now I look back and I try to give feedback as much as possible. Or I try to give them any support that I can. Because I I do realize that sitting in that seat, the calls keep coming. It it doesn't stop. I've done done peer support and debrief on some of these guys and they're like, I I had to sit I was sitting there crying, answering the phone for the next call. And I can remember one of my my best friends got in the chase and you hear someone when he keys up saying, We're gonna kill you. Well, you're in a despatch center and I knew where he was at because of riding with him. But what can you do? You're like you know, like Kevin said, you're in that helpless situation where you're like, Man, Angel: Mm. Lee Wainright: I wish I could do something. So for me I've learned a lot and I think it helps me to better understand to try to remain calm, A, for the dispatchers, because if I if I lose it then they're gonna be saying, something's wrong. Angel: Right, for sure. So why do you think the dispatch trauma is treated like a secondary issue in so many public safety agencies today? Why do you think it's so hard for people to recognize or not even purposefully but not even realize it, Lee Wainright: There's so I'm gonna go with it two way on this one because some of your management has never been in dispatch. Now some of have, but dispatching nine one one and and dispatching police and dispatching critical care is three whole worlds. So if I'm dispatching critical care, I'm not getting the same calls that I am at nine one or as a police or sheriff's office dispatch. So I think that the the culture change has to come, you have to have your

management and I've talked to a couple of where they have started some of have come from the nine one one dispatch role and they actually still get on the console, relieve their people, let go take a hour break. Let get that that change of pace, the change of scenery, get out of the room just to be able to say, Okay, I got fresh air. Angel: Yes, it's so important. And and if they haven't set in that role, we just don't realize. We can listen and we can try to understand, but it's just not like it's the same with any position, I think. Other people try to understand, but it's not like walking in those same shoes. So as a logistics captain, you manage the gear, vehicles, and supplies. Most people don't realize how broken equipment or poor logistical support directly fuels provider rage and burnout. How does operational logistics impact the mental health? Lee Wainright: Man, that is is huge. so when I went to the agency I went as a captain, man, the so the county had just taken over. They were a private entity and you had trucks, man, 200,000, 300,000 miles on them. There's screws holding the Kevin Whitsell: huh. Lee Wainright: parts of the seat together, you know, trucks consistently breaking down. And the people are just like, they're so beat down because they're like, Angel: Yes. Lee Wainright: and I don't know how it is there but in North Carolina the humidity is horrible. So even with a Kevin Whitsell: same. Lee Wainright: with a good truck the the AC's decent at best. I mean so Angel: I know. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Lee Wainright: so I think you know if you have newer equipment it does boost morale some you know supply chain now Angel: It really does. Lee Wainright: it changes a lot and You have a lot of newer people going into logistics that don't understand the hey the the normal saline goes out this time of year every year. The Epi goes out this this time of year every year. And so we need to try to boost up. Now granted, you can't always be so far ahead, but you can at least try to curve that curve it a little bit. And I've had people, man, they got lit because you're out of twenty gauge IVs. I'm like, pick another color, man. Look. It's okay. If if it's pink, just go Angel: That's right. Lee Wainright: blue, go green. just you gotta do what you gotta do to to do what's right for the patient. But it does it does make a difference when you have equipment that's subpar or you know, you're consistently out of stuff. People are like, I I can't do my job because I don't have the appropriate equipment. Angel: Yeah. And and from my point of view, I would love to do logistics, by the way. That is right up my alley. I told Kevin Lee Wainright: It was Angel: he should hire me to handle all his supplies. I would handle it. Kevin Whitsell: I Lee Wainright: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: I l I Lee Wainright: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: literally am a leader now and it's I offload that job to my co manager so fast when we came I was like mm Angel: Yeah. I love all of it. Kevin Whitsell: mm I don't want it. Lee Wainright: So I I love logistics. I would sit there on night shift and away from the full time job and go through like the list trying to see how I could save money because it was a poor county. So I'm trying to figure out how I can roll money back into what we're doing. So Angel: Right. Lee Wainright: it was more of that challenge for me to figure out how can you make the money stretch longer to to do what you wanted to do. s and you met Angel: Yeah. It's like a puzzle to me. Lee Wainright: it definitely, definitely. Kevin Whitsell: Then I don't like puzzles, so Lee Wainright: And well, I don't I don't like those type of puzzles, but this one, I mean, like my reps were pretty cool, so you know, you got to eat pretty good when you you went out and met with so Right. Kevin Whitsell: yeah. Now I do I do like the rep part of it. Absolutely. Angel: Ha ha ha. Kevin Whitsell: That's the that's the best part. So I see your your your banner behind you and I love your logo. So I wanna talk a little bit, I wanna shift a little bit and talk a little bit about this this upstream thing. So tell me about what the upstream approach is and what your motivation to creating it was. Lee Wainright: So when I took the class with Dina Alley through the North Carolina Peer Sport team in September, we were talking about well she kept talking about what if we could go upstream? What if we could go upstream and get the people before they got in trouble? What if we could, you know, be more proactive instead of reactive? And then when the suicide happened the that weekend, it kinda threw something out to me to say, hmm. And that's the the first class that I actually did was going upstream in mental health. And it was trying to be pro proactive versus reactive. It's giving people tools. And it's not only mental health. I'm building other tools out there right now. But it's more my my first initial thing was less get people resources. So I've vetted over two hundred plus resources for first responders, fire police, EMS and dispatch. I've got AI peer support built in and so I've built all this myself. This is a one man operation at this point. well I've got a a second person Angel: That's impressive. Lee Wainright: i and it's the boss lady is the wife. because you gotta have that supportive role in there and she's like the the one that If I have an issue, I'd be like, here, read this and make it make sense. So Angel: Mm. Lee Wainright: but it's it's really we're trying to make everyday challenges easier for people to manage. And in our role as first responders, so the AI peer support, two o'clock in the morning and I'm not down in any other resources out there because I think they all play an important part in what we do. whether it's EAP, EAP's got a a specific reason. and we're not here to try to take over that. I'm trying to give people another avenue like at two o'clock in the morning where you're saying, Hey, I'm having issues.

Well you can go on on the AI peer support and start typing away and it's like boom and it's gonna talk you through it just like someone from peer support. Because like you may have two people from peer support on your shift. But what they're on calls? What if they're on vacation? They're sick, whatever. Are you gonna be comfortable talking to somebody else? So I I pretty much tried to build this to make it where people would have resources of any type that they needed. excuse me, whether it's grounding tools and whatnot in there. So you can, you know, do breathing exercises, journaling. There's no login for it. So it takes away the stigma whether an agency gets it, actually after talking to my wife and, you know, we we looked at it, I'm actually gonna do something that the other ones aren't doing it and I'm actually going to make it available for individuals as well. So if your agency's not doing it now, other people can can't get it. but like for the agencies, yes, they could get like aggregated data just to say, hey, look, people are using it. Because essentially that's what they're gonna look for. But it doesn't say that, you know, Angel went up there and she did this, or Kevin went up there and he did this. It's just saying someone's using the particular tool just to say, you know, from the from the county or management perspective, they're gonna want to see numbers. So I kept it anonymous Kevin Whitsell: Well I Angel: That's great. Lee Wainright: on purpose for that. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, and I think that kinda like what I read for the intro, that's that's what we've done. We've we've stood downstream for so long and we've just pulled these people out after they're in crisis or they're they're having suicidal thoughts or they're addicted to something. why do you feel like that that that strategy is broken and not working? I mean, think we see the evidence of it for sure, but what's your your Lee Wainright: See my wife. yeah. Well Kevin Whitsell: personal perspective? Lee Wainright: So from a personal perspective perspective, I've never even used EAP. I was offered it when I went to my my write up and you know so many people have used EAP and I've heard so many horror stories. And the horror stories are Kevin Whitsell: Excuse me. Lee Wainright: I had to leave a message and it was so many days later. And then when you talk to EAP they're like, man, I I don't how do you how do y'all deal with that? I'm sorry, I'm coming to you for help and if you're saying how do you deal with that, that doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. like and I've talked to people that have used it and there's there's certain things that it does better than other things. You know, trying to give you resources if you need help for with other things, you know, if you have marital issues or stuff like that. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, yeah. Lee Wainright: But that's for me like I've I've never used it. I had to go off of what someone else said. So but they're they're a Monday through Friday eight to five organization. And we're working twenty-four seventy-two, firehouse, twenty-four forty eight, whatever schedule, and now so at two o'clock in the morning EAP is not there for you. So what are you gonna do at that point? Kevin Whitsell: That's so true. my first experience with EAP was was absolutely awful. Man. I went in there and started spilling my guts about all the things that I'd seen and done. And at the end of my s spiel, right, I'm I'm having to almost pat the counselor on the back and say, Hey buddy, it's okay. Like it's not a big deal. This is this is a normal Tuesday to us. What why are you crying? I'm the one that's supposed to be crying. Lee Wainright: Yeah. Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: and then he sends me to a psychologist or not a psychologist, psychiatrist, and they prescribe the medication and then that was the last I heard from anybody. And I'm just on this medication. And I had a really really powerful effect from the medication. It was not the right med for me because I was noticing how the spiders built built their spider webs. I mean, I was just every facet of life was interesting all of a sudden and I could see the beauty and everything and while that sounds great when you're when that's not you at your basis you know that's that's feels pretty weird. So what is this really so in practice? So you talk about the the two AM call and you've got a tool in place that can be useful to these people at two AM. But what does the whole idea of this upstream approach really look like in real everyday practice for a leader Lee Wainright: So Kevin Whitsell: or for somebody who's organizing this? I mean, what are the tools that we're putting out there other than the AI thing? Lee Wainright: So I mean it gives you the grounding and journaling resources where you can actually go in, it'll give you breathing techniques, it gives you some grounding stuff to to feel, to touch, the smell. you know, do a ninety second dump where you can man, I I despise my my supervisor, da da da and at the end you hit it and it and it goes away. Or you even have the option to even save it up there. Or if journaling works for you, I've got it where you can journal either typing it or talking into it. So you if you want to come back later and be able to look at it and say, Hey, what was I thinking then? What was going on in my life? Or, you know, Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Lee Wainright: with everybody else writing books now, you might write your book as your story goes through. But Kevin Whitsell: That's right. Yeah. Lee Wainright: Yeah, it's and then there's also crisis intervention like following the ball around just to break your concentration off of that bad call or whatever you you've seen that really is bothering you. So I did that to give you a whole lot of resources. sleep management's a big one because a lot of us don't sleep well. Kevin Whitsell: Hence the reason why I've yawned two or three times because I'm just I'm just beat down

because I'm I'm just Lee Wainright: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: not sleeping well. which which when I was a younger man I could say, I thrive with no sleep. I'm I'm you know, I'm the man. I'm I'm bad at the bone, I you know, all the things. And now that I'm almost forty, I'm like, I'm so tired. Can we just can we just go sit down? Lee Wainright: Yeah. Angel: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: And all these little young kids are coming in, like you said, and they're like, Woohoo, we're not getting any sleep, run all night. I'm like, No, how about we not? Lee Wainright: Yeah. Well they're up at like they're up at two AM sitting there talking and laughing and joking and I'm sitting here laying in the Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm. Lee Wainright: bed in a dark room saying, Man, I just want peace and quiet. I just Yeah, I just wanna Angel: No. Kevin Whitsell: I just want y'all to shut up, yeah. Lee Wainright: wanna lay down. They're like, Pawpaw, I was like, Paw Paw they're like, Yeah, you're into bed at seven o'clock. I was like, I'm just Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Lee Wainright: in the room and peace and quiet, decompressing at this point. You know. Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: Yep, I see it. That's Angel: Yes. Kevin Whitsell: it. See? Angel: So as a captain, Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Angel: how do you balance maintaining high operational standards and accountability on shift while still creating a culture where providers feel safe admitting that they're hurting? It's such a hard balance. Like one day Kevin Whitsell: I'm s so interested in this answer. Lee Wainright: Yeah. Angel: Me too, me too. Cause I I want to be that good supporter. I want to be the person Lee Wainright: Yeah. Angel: they can come to, but like still gonna need you to do what you're supposed to do 'cause I ain't your mama, so pick up behind yourself. Lee Wainright: Right. Right. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, and I wanna this is when you have to channel your inner pawpaw and and and put it put all that experience Angel: Yeah, it's Kevin Whitsell: into words. Lee Wainright: Th so Kevin Whitsell: We want to give a massive shout out to our founding sponsor, Five Arrows Forge. When Jason Minershagan launched Five Arrows Forge, he created a coaching movement rooted in faith, built on grit, and designed for lasting growth. Jason is a two-time number one best-selling author, certified NLP trainer, and veteran firefighter who has walked through the fire both on the job and the home front. His coaching program helps men break through anxiety, PTSD, and self-sabotaging behaviors so they can step back into their household as leaders that they were called to be. if you're ready to do the real work and rebuild your mindset, head over to fivearrowsforge.com. Take the first step today at fivearrowsforge.com. Lee Wainright: for me, one of the things I did and I even see like yes, you still may have to do the paperwork. But you explain to them, say, hey look, what's actually going on? Is there something going on in your personal life that that I need to know about and that I can help you with? Because If you need the help and we're if I start seeing a change in how you act, how you show up to work, ha you're showing up late, you're usually on time every day, you come in, you're you're you're in a negative attitude, whatever, you have to look at it and a lot of times you make the paperwork disappear because when I find out that there's a problem and say, you know, in my case I went and found out 'cause I went through compassion fatigue and burnout and went and sought out therapy and whatnot. But then when you get your e val, it slaps you right back in the face because, you got rode up for this. So I I look at it from when I when I was supervising, you know, if they're gonna take initiative to do something, I'm gonna work with you to try to do what I can. You know, so that way six months down the road it doesn't slap you back in the face to say, well you did this. I know I did that, but now it's gonna revert them back to where they were. Angel: That's such a good point. I had not thought about Lee Wainright: So you know you Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, and I think Angel: it coming back coming back to haunt you. I very much had an experience like that that could have haunted me, but thank God the business the EMS service went out of business. So they were never Kevin Whitsell: Was Angel: able to call back and get a reference, but Kevin Whitsell: Was that when you weren't stocking your truck every morning? Me and Jose got on to you? Was Lee Wainright: Mm-hmm. Kevin Whitsell: that it? Was that the one? Angel: Absolutely not it. Absolutely not it. Lee Wainright: So you you so you being the bad partner over there? Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, I was. Angel: No. Kevin Whitsell: I was. I was hateful. Angel: Heaven was just fuel in the fire. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, I was I was being hateful. Lee Wainright: I mean but y think about it, you know, when you look at that right up sitting in your eval, that also affects your pay or can affect your pay. And so now Angel: Right. Lee Wainright: when you're thinking, man, I'm a I get a little bumped here that that's kinda like, let me push you right back down to where you were. And and people don't look at it that way and and I I saw it, you know, in several of my folks and you know, I now look at it differently, going through some of the same stuff saying, Hey, maybe we need to do a a better job with the approach and maybe we need to to do a better job with educating our younger people that are our upcoming management on how to deal with these things. Because EMS has failed for years on on training their new people on how to take care of their young people. Angel: Absolutely. I'm very passionate about that too because I want I want to I want to be the preceptor that I needed when I started because I was so green and didn't know anything. And sometimes management will be like, Why are you doing all that? 'Cause I'd be extra. And I was like, Because I just

want to be what I needed. I needed somebody to invest in me. Now, once I've invested and you ain't taking appreciation, I'm over it. But I'm gonna give you the chance. Lee Wainright: Well, and it means something to you when those people come to you and say, Hey, you made a difference. That Angel: It does, it does. Lee Wainright: and and your preceptors are your first per first face of the agency. Because that's who you're with for the first however long during your time trying to get released. So you trying to invest in this new person, now you're saying, Hmm. when they come invite you back to their their paramedic graduation Or, you know, they're like, Man, I I really appreciate her, hey, I wanna come ride with you now when I'm off of orientation. It ju it just brings a different light to it. Angel: That's for sure. So on that line, kinda, what's the biggest mistake middle management and executive leaders make when trying to address mental health in their departments? Lee Wainright: I for me is they want to be the person that you go to because I'm not gonna go to my admin when I have an issue because I'm afraid that stigma is still there. Whether people say it or not, the stigma is still there. And Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. Lee Wainright: you know, a lot of people are afraid that if I go to my my management that I'm weak now, I can't do my job because I have this issue. sometimes even having somebody that's not middle management or even admin running a show because I may go to you because I trust you. I may go to Kevin because I trust him. But if Kevin's management, I may not go to Kevin now. Because Kevin still has that duty to say, You told me this, now you know, now I gotta do do something different. Kevin Whitsell: Yep. And that's exact that is it. You just said it. Because I went from paramedic on the truck at at at a at a pediatric neonatical neonatical. Neonatal critical care team. I went from a paramedic to a dispatcher for the for the stability of what a dispatcher is. I always knew I'd get off on time. And Lee Wainright: Mm-hmm. Kevin Whitsell: we were having a child. Went from that to supervisor in our dispatch center and now to operations manager of the whole thing. And I think one of the things that really initially hurt my feelings when I went to supervisor is I quit getting the invites to breakfast after the shift. You know, there were so many people that would go out and eat after the shift was over. And I was always one of the mainstays. I don't know if it was because I was the fat guy and they knew I liked breakfast or if it was because I was liked. But either way I was there. And it was it just went away. It just stopped. And it it hurt my feelings at first and then I had to come to the realization, it's because your color shirt changed. Lee Wainright: Mm-hmm. Kevin Whitsell: It's because they feel like they can't trust you anymore. Lee Wainright: Well and you also hold a different standard when you go from that gray shirt to the white shirt. Because when you go on that white shirt, what you would have said in that gray shirt, now you're like, we can't be saying that here. Kevin Whitsell: Can't say that. Lee Wainright: Yeah. Because you you're representing me, the agency, and everybody else. And now they're looking like, but you said that, you know, when you were in that gray shirt. I'm like, Well, I mean, lessons learned over the years. and you don't realize until you get put in that role that, hey, when I put that white shirt on it's a whole different meaning of what's going on. Angel: So how do you think in a Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, that's true. Angel: practical sense that we can reassure them that we are a safe place even in the white shirts? Lee Wainright: I think vulnerability, showing vulnerabilities, saying, Hey, look, you know, doing peer support, you see a lot of of management that has been doing this twenty, thirty years, and they go on these calls and they get back and they're like, I'm fine, I'm okay, I'm fine. So now your younger people are saying, Well, if he's okay, I should be okay, or she's okay, I should be okay. If you let know, hey, it's okay not to be okay, it's okay that you're human and it's bothering you. Because if it's bothering me and I let now you're gonna say, Hey man, do you need to talk? And it opens up that conversation between the two providers, the new person and the old person, and you never know that new person may bring something to the table for the older person. So I think if you if you open up and you're more vulnerable, and I see it because even some of the admin and agencies, when you do a SISM, some admin won't go because they're afraid of what's gonna be said, how it's gonna Kevin Whitsell: Yep. Lee Wainright: be perceived. And in all actuality, if the the street level provider saw that and said, Hey, it bothers you? Okay, it must be okay. Angel: That's exactly what I Kevin Whitsell: And Angel: was about to say. we actu Kevin Whitsell: an an angel to toot our own horn. Are you about to say this? Angel: Yes. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, go ahead. Angel: We so a couple of weeks ago I had a very, very bad call. Very bad call. my brother is our operations manager and not to toot his horn, I mean I'm a fan of him, of course, but not only did if we had had the management and support that he gave us through that incident 15 years ago when we started this job, we would be so much better off. But on top of that, besides all of that, we had debriefing that night. It was 10 PM on a Friday night. He made that happen and he went with us. He left his home. He went with us. He was on scene with us. He saw what we saw. He felt what we felt. He heard what we heard. A couple of days later, Kevin met us for breakfast, several of us that we've all worked together before. And we were just really struggling. Jacob didn't just set it up for us and set up a time and say, hey, meet Kevin over there at the coffee shop. He's gonna hook you up. He met us

there. And Lee Wainright: Awesome. Angel: I can't, I can't imagine how I just I know I keep saying this. I just can't imagine how much better we would be. Yeah, though, yeah, that call was still hard. Yeah, we felt all the feelings that we didn't want to feel, but we Kevin Whitsell: Sure. Sure. Angel: knew that somebody got it. Lee Wainright: Right. And when they Kevin Whitsell: and I go ahead, Lee. Lee Wainright: I was I was gonna say when you when you see that it's affecting them and they understand now or they show you at least show you they understand, I Kevin Whitsell: no. Lee Wainright: think that big builds a bigger picture and it builds up the morale because now people are saying we all get it together. Angel: Yes. Kevin Whitsell: Well, I was going to say one of the best things that that we do when we come and and have a conference and we did it Saturday, like I said, radio time, so this is long past now, but We put leaders on the stage on a panel and let them talk about some of their weightier things, if you will. and I I just was a part of one of those some years ago where some leaders that I respected got on stage at at a similar kind of conference that we held and talked about some mental health stuff. And I was blown away by the fact that in my mind I think we put leaders on almost a pedestal. not not really a pe pedestal might not be the right word, but we put them way up here. they don't deal with some of the same things we do. They don't get it. when in reality to be a especially an EMS, to be a leader in an EMS, like you have to have gone through the ranks. You have to have kind of worked your way up to it. It's not something you just fall into. Lee Wainright: Right. Kevin Whitsell: So to to have that experience of having leaders that can can be open and honest, I think you nailed it. I think that that what what you did as a supervisor and and the things that you've talked about so far have just been that's it. That's where we need to be as an industry where our leaders will be vulnerable and say, Hey, I've been in that darkness too. Hey, I've experienced those things and be open and honest rather than the the I'm fine mentality that we've carried around for so many years. Why do we keep doing this? when do we when do we realize that this is the definition of insanity and stop doing the same thing expecting different results. There's Angel: and let's be honest, if anybody's done this for any time, they've been in a dark spot. It may not last but a day. different it affects different people different ways. But to say I'm fine or I've always been fine, that's not true. You being humble enough to admit that goes a long way with your people. Lee Wainright: Well and I think that's the problem is is you have to be humble. And a lot of the and I'm not gonna say they're not humble, but I think what happens is is a lot of them get in that role. and and they're they're viewing that that humbleness as weakness to say, I I I'm having issues

or I've got this going on. You know, 'cause management they have divorces, they have family problems, you know, you have kid problems, you have work problems. You know, in coming to talk to the people, you know, when I first went into management, they always said, you never talk down. You never go to your people and say, Hey Angel, you know, I'm having a problem with this But later on I look back and I'm like, they may be going through the same thing I'm going through and they they may could help me get through that situation. And so now having that conversation with some of these people is a lot easier. And I and I Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Lee Wainright: if if man Angel: Sure. Lee Wainright: and if management would do that, I think you would start seeing a change in culture all the way around. Kevin Whitsell: Well, I think it also goes back to it's a forgetfulness issue as well. we we tend to when we get in those spots and I've found myself being guilty of this at times, especially early on in my leadership, you forget almost where you come from. You're so focused on the rules and it's also a piece of an and we talk about this a lot on the show, but it's pe it's a piece of an identity crisis. We want be the best leader. We want to hold the line. We want to hold accountability. We want to make sure that all the policies are followed because that's what keeps us employed, is that we have you know, I hate the word subordinate, but we have subordinates that are doing what they're supposed to do. and and that's how we're judged is by what this group of people that we're leading is is doing. So I think we get into this identity of I have to be this leader. I have to be this leader. I have to be this leader. When in reality, when something bad happens, it's so much more helpful to remove yourself and remove that shirt color and that identity crisis that you face or that forgetfulness and just sit down and talk with a human as a human. And that's what we've done. We've masked ourselves behind the shirt color or the badge or the patch or the what for me all the hundreds of challenge coins that I have and all this stuff that we hide behind all these little things and and we won't step away from that long enough to just remember at the end of the day, Angel and Lee are humans and I am a human too and we're all wired very similarly. So if I'm feeling something internally, they may be feeling something internally. And let's sit down and bring that to the forefront and stop hiding behind our fear of emotion. Lee Wainright: Absolutely. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Angel: So true. So how can the line personnel, the the boots on the ground, how can they start building an upstream mindset at the kitchen table even when their administration refuses to change? Even when they're not vulnerable and they don't want to put themselves out there or even admit that they've even had a struggle. What can we do in the field to help the next person? Lee Wainright: sit down, have the conversations, you don't know what the other person's going through. And if you listen to like some of the other folks that's gone through in the mental health we were talking about earlier before we came on where you meet all these people, you take like Travis House, he talks about you should know your partner really well because I don't know what my partner's going through, but you're driving a weapon down the road. So Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. Lee Wainright: you know, having conversations and it may be nothing, but You don't know what's gonna come out of that conversation. And so there's some people that I can have those conversations with and it goes all day. And there's some people that you're gonna have that conversation and they're gonna be like, all right, we're done. But at least it puts something out there or a feeler out there that says, hey. I've got this going on. This is some of the stuff that that I've done. I'll use me for an example. I went through the PCIS, like I said, in April of last year. this past April I took eight coworkers with me to PCIS. So to get people to to see that hey, you can get it see a change. You gotta do what you gotta do. and I'll talk about it all day long. That hey, it's okay. If you're not okay, and I'll c you know, I'll have the face to face conversation, like, yo, what's up with you now? Because you start recognizing things. You start saying, You know, Angel, you're not showing up what's wrong with you? You look like you're ill with the world. Is everything okay? And it opens that door. So now you're gonna feel like Dag, you done seen something, so either we're gonna talk about it or I'm gonna change what I look like. Kevin Whitsell: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Angel: Right. That's such a that's such a good a good point, a good Kirk of having a full time partner on the unit. I'm always pro that. But if you've got a good working relationship, of course the scenes go better. But they are gonna be beside your spouse, that's gonna be the person that recognizes first, hey, something's not quite right. If it's still that way, next shift, you know, I'm gonna check in on you. What's going on? Lee Wainright: Well even if you look at throughout the shift, if it does it change. Hey Kevin, Angel: For sure. Lee Wainright: are what's going on, man? you've been like super crouchy all day. Is something bothering you today? Did you get enough sleep last night? You know? Angel: It's so true. Lee Wainright: You know Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, I laugh 'cause that's yeah, that that actually tracks the grumpy part. Angel: Yes. And Lee Wainright: Yeah. Well first thing in the morning. Angel: sometimes we just need that reality check. Lee Wainright: Yeah. Well well Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, yeah. Lee Wainright: for me it's like first thing in the morning, until the medicine starts kicking in, the vibe ants starts working. The caffeine Angel: Yes. Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. Lee Wainright: kick, yeah, all that right. I'm just kinda like,

okay, I'm here. Kevin Whitsell: I have to have my my vivants, my nicotine, my visine and and and my caffeine and we're all good. Angel: That's right. Kevin Whitsell: And we're all good. Lee Wainright: So mine is the the the monster vive ants combo works, so Angel: Ha ha ha ha. Kevin Whitsell: Well, absolutely. I have a am I have a running Amazon subscription, no joke, to the to the Monster Mango Juice brand. And it's packed Lee Wainright: Oof. Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: full of sugar and it's packed full of caffeine. And that's exactly Lee Wainright: It is great. Kevin Whitsell: the right amount of chemical to wake wake me up in the morning. That Lee Wainright: So so if my so if Monster is listening or rev sponsorship is always appreciated, Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, absolutely. That's Angel: That's exactly right because I buy Kevin Whitsell: right. Angel: two cases every paycheck of White Monsters. So I sure could use sponsorship Kevin Whitsell: Same Angel: too. Kevin Whitsell: s same Lee Wainright: Right. Kevin Whitsell: with my Amazon subscription. Two cases every 15 days. That's how it's set up. So absolutely. Angel: Mm. Kevin Whitsell: So Lee, we started doing something toward the end of the show. And as we wrap up, I think this has been absolutely great. I think you've given us some great content to work with. I've been going through and actually on the producer side, I've got a mark button. I don't know if you knew this, Angel, but I can mark different spots. And that's how Riverside will then make some of the clips, the magic Angel: I don't know. Kevin Whitsell: clips. if if I use this feature. but what we started doing, Lee, is is this lightning question round. So I'm gonna go through, and Angel, this is for you too. I always like to get her involved and hear her her take as well. So I'll ask you guys a set of lightning questions. it's just a one-sentence question. You give me your quickest answer that you can, short to the point. So let's get started. What's the single most dangerous phrase spoken in a station or a dispatch center today? Lee Wainright: You'll be okay. Kevin Whitsell: That's a good one. Yeah. Can I Nanny Angel: That's way we've always done it. Kevin Whitsell: come some pizza? gosh. Can Nanny come me some pizza? Huh? Can Nanny come me one pizza? 'Cause that's all we have. Yeah, that's fine. Six year old problems. He wants a pizza. Anyway. Angel: Mm. Kevin Whitsell: Can Nanny cook me a pizza? Sure, man. I'd Lee Wainright: Yes. Angel: Yeah. Get out. Kevin Whitsell: yeah, Nanny can cook you whatever you want. In one word, what is the biggest barrier to first responder mental health? Lee Wainright: I would go with stigma but silence because Kevin Whitsell: Mm. Silence is a big one. Lee Wainright: if no one's saying nothing then people think that there's not a problem. Kevin Whitsell: Can't fix a problem you don't know about. Angel? Lee Wainright: Right. Oof. Kevin Whitsell: yeah. Yeah, that's a good one. Mmm. I feel attacked. Lee Wainright: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: what what is one thing about police dispatch trauma that street providers constantly misunderstand? So obviously Lee, this one's for you. Lee Wainright: they're part of the they're a part of the team. For me is you know, people forget you're still a part of that team. critical care dispatch, they do air debriefs where they're supposed to do air debriefs, but you don't always get that. And I think even in the police world when you have a high acuity call, you don't always get that debrief, even if it's nothing more than Kevin coming up to the room saying, Hey man, how do y'all think everything went? You know Is there anything we change? I use the analogy, what do we do right? What do we do wrong? What can we do different? It's not to say any one of those three things is gonna apply. But I lay it out because that way not they're not gonna say, I did something wrong or I did everything right. It's you're looking for a a can a collaborative to say, Hey, could we change something to make it better? Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Yep. Yep. I like that a lot. I could do a whole whole episode on that divide between dispatch and and field crews. You know, whatever Lee Wainright: Mm-hmm. Kevin Whitsell: job you work in. Like it's just this unwritten rule somewhere. I haven't found it written down anywhere yet, but you hate dispatch. That's just what you're supposed to do. You everybody just hates dispatch. Lee Wainright: Well you do it well you do at two in the morning as soon as they key up to answer another unit the r the phone rings in the background, Kevin Whitsell: Mm. Lee Wainright: you're like tag 'cause something's getting ready to go on. But you're like, Tag. Kevin Whitsell: yeah. Yep. Absolutely. so what is a physical warning sign on shift that a provider can know that they're heading downstream? Lee Wainright: For me, it's irritability. Kevin Whitsell: Angel, I'm looking at you. Angel: Well, that's so true. I was thinking physical, like not taking very good care of yourself. You know, Kevin Whitsell: Okay. Lee Wainright: Yeah. Angel: maybe you're mindful of what you eat and now you're eating everything in the building. Or you Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm. Angel: usually eat everything in the building, you're not eating nothing at all. Or maybe you hadn't bathed the whole forty eight that were at work and you usually bathe twice, you know. Something's different. Lee Wainright: Yeah. Well I'm saying the irritability the the irritability for me is Kevin Whitsell: If you ever wanna have an yeah. If you ever wanna have an uncomfortable me and you could be friends, Lee. We just love talk over each other. I just love that. You go ahead. You're the guest. Lee Wainright: I'm sorry. But no, I mean I I don't know if it's a delay or whatever. the irritability for me is kind of physical because I'm looking at it, you may come across more angry. Like you start seeing people punching stuff and doing stuff that generally doesn't make people

feel safe in the building. And it could Angel: Right. Lee Wainright: be irritability just like I'm just grouching, or it could be the irritability of balance or something like that. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. I think if you to Angel's point, if you ever wanna have a a difficult conversation as a leader, have to have s a conversation about bathing. That's one I did not enjoy as a leader. Lee Wainright: I had the supervisor actually take wash rag, soap, deodorant, and says, Sir, you have not to me. but to the provider says, Man, you got to take a bath at least once every twenty four hours. Angel: Yes. Lee Wainright: Like you can smell Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Lee Wainright: him it's like the Stetson Kelowna, the old person. Like you can smell before they get in the room. You're like Angel: Yes. Lee Wainright: But that's that private that's that private conversation. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, I've had a few I've had a few. Yeah, that's right. So what's the hardest lesson you guys have learned in your careers in public safety? Lee Wainright: Gonna go first to some angel. Angel: It's okay that I'm not okay sometimes. Cause I feel Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Angel: like we have to we all feel that way. We want to put on that mask and be the strong one and we get in this savior complex, We're here to save the day and and then when all the volunteer firemen are struggling, I feel this ridiculous need to be the strong one for them. Well, I can be, I can listen, but I can still not be okay at the same time. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Lee Wainright: Well you gotta realize that you you don't have to always be the hero. Angel: Yes. Lee Wainright: at some point even the hero needs to be saved. So yes, I can be there for you too. Angel: Cool, that's good. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, and and mine yeah, yeah, and mine was mine was very similar to you guys. Ironically, my first thought when I wrote this question was, you know, difficult times are gonna come for each and every one of us. You have to be mentally prepared to go. Nope, that one was a bad one. I gotta do something I gotta do something about it. I gotta go talk to somebody. I gotta be Angel: Yes, yes. Kevin Whitsell: able to sit down. And if you know that it's gonna come from everybody, it just it normalizes that response of, that's it, I'm gonna talk to somebody. Angel: No tree. Lee Wainright: Well I think it's important knowing your ones and twos. in the pure s pure support world they tell you know who your ones and twos are. you may Kevin, your your one may be angel, where you can pick up the phone at any time and say, Hey, I got a problem. And if she knows that you don't normally call her at two in the morning and you're calling her at two in the morning, most Kevin Whitsell: She's gonna answer. Lee Wainright: she's gonna answer that phone. So you know who your ones and twos are. just that you have that person you can talk to that you're comfortable having the uncomfortable conversation with. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, that's good.

What is Angel: For sure. Kevin Whitsell: the core difference between a boss and an upstream leader? Lee Wainright: So there's the picture, you know, of the boss that's sitting on top of the box or whatever and Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Lee Wainright: he's got the whip kinda whipping the people and then you got the leader that's down there with them. And I think that it's a it's a powerful picture. And you look at it, if your leader's down there and they're going to battle with you and and they're saying, Hey, I'm right here beside you. Let's do this together. Kevin Whitsell: Yep. Lee Wainright: you're gonna you're gonna make a bigger impact and Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. Lee Wainright: you can also get them to do things that they normally wouldn't do. So if they do need help, you know, we talk about if if you go to someone, go to them and get on their level. If if if Kevin or Angel needs to go to a therapist, I'm gonna meet you somewhere and be like, do you want me to make the phone call for you? and if you have a good leader doing the upstream stuff, they may be that person that's saying, Hey, I got I know somebody. I got someone that you can talk to that's done some had the same similar issues you had, you know. And I've told people just because you don't have you don't have a rank does not mean you're not a leader. You don't have to have that title just Kevin Whitsell: Yep, that's right. Lee Wainright: to be a leader. Kevin Whitsell: That's right. That say it all the time. The only thing that distinguishes me between any other leader is that somebody's willing to follow me. That's what makes us leaders. And you can lead Lee Wainright: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: from absolutely any title and position. Because all it takes to be a leader is somebody to follow you. So if you're Angel: Mm. Kevin Whitsell: doing something well enough for somebody to follow you, guess what? You're in a leadership position. You may still be that truck medic Or that EMT, but somebody's willing to follow your lead on something. And Lee Wainright: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: that's a responsibility. Yeah, so last yep, last question. Angel: That's so true. Lee Wainright: And Kevin Whitsell: What gives you hope? go ahead, Lee. You had one more thing. Lee Wainright: Well well I was just saying the trust factor is there, if they're willing Angel: Mm. Lee Wainright: to follow you. And that says something Kevin Whitsell: That's it. Lee Wainright: about you as a person, if those people are willing to s to step up and say, Whatever Kevin says or does, I'm just gonna follow him behind him because I trust him enough to know he's not gonna lead me astray. Kevin Whitsell: There's this stupid video they show at at my workplace a lot during some of the leader trainings and it's this one guy back in God, it looks like it's from the seventies. But he stands up that was good years, wouldn't it, Lee? Angel: Ha Kevin Whitsell: I'm just picking on you, Papa. Don't worry. and he and he stands up

in this crowd and he starts dancing. And he's dancing to music, but nobody else is dancing. He's the only one dancing. And then all of a sudden the second one gets up and the third one gets up and everybody kind of catches the beat and just starts the before you know it, the whole crowd's dancing. And and they use it to say that's the kind of leader you want to be, that somebody is willing to get up and dance with you. Lee Wainright: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: and and and that somebody trusts you enough to follow you. And I always take that video and I'm like, yeah, it's stupid, but man, I hope somebody's dancing with me. I hope I'm trustworthy enough that somebody dances. so then the last question of course is what gives you hope that we can fix this culture for the next generation of providers? Lee Wainright: The hope for me is and what's giving me the hope is you you got things like this. and after Angel re reached out to me, I started going through and listening to some of the podcasts and some of the the speakers up there and I'm like, holy crap. Like listening to some of the stuff they're talking about, and I'm like, that sounds like me, that sounds like me. But there's people like you guys doing stuff like this. There's people out there that's willing to give up their time to say, what can we do to make this better for someone else? Because if you're willing to step out and do that to make it better for someone else, maybe the next person will do the same thing. you got kids, I got kids. An Angel, you got kids? She got a household. So, Angel: I do I have three. Kevin Whitsell: she's got a whole house full. Lee Wainright: you know, you're hoping that you're bringing them up to do the same thing. To be able to take the next generation up and to be able to want to help somebody else. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Yep, that's good. Angel: that's so good. What it gives me hope because I know we're on radio time, but conference is on the forefront. But I was just thinking when it got quiet Saturday night, there was somebody from every generation there Saturday. Kevin Whitsell: yeah. Angel: Not only that, but there was their spouses were there too. And they were invested in us being well as much as we were. Kevin Whitsell: Yep. Yep. And Lee Wainright: That's awesome. Angel: It gives me hope. Kevin Whitsell: and that was yeah, that was the whole point. All right. So Lee, this is one of my favorite Lee Wainright: Just been Kevin Whitsell: times of the show. I want to hear all the places that we can find you and everything that you're doing. Lee Wainright: So I am on Facebook, you can I think it's Lee Wainwright, also Upstream Initiative. I'm on LinkedIn under Lee or Leland Wainwright, one of those two, Instagram with Upstream Initiative and I think Lee or Leland Wainwright. you can email me upstream initiative at outlook dot com. I do answer emails. right now, with all the spam calls, I generally don't answer the phone unless I know who it is. But if you need me to come out, talk, or if someone just needs to even talk, I I'm here to do whatever d needs to be done just to help people out. if they want to get together and let's talk about the app, we can do that. or, you know, I do the upstream initiative class, which is the app and the going upstream in mental health. So, just reach out and we can hopefully work out something to come to you guys. Kevin Whitsell: Well, that's awesome. Lee, thank you so much for being on our show and saying yes to a bunch of nobodies that care about people's mental health. we appreciate you and all the information that you've given. And as always, guys and girls that are listening, there's a few reasons that we keep keep getting to do this and we keep getting to have conferences and we keep getting to pour into not only each other but you guys. it's it's by no donations from people like you. That jump on our website and give our nonprofit donations. We are a 501c3 registered nonprofit now. so we do the CISM soon. We we do it unofficially now. and then we do the peer support, and then we do outreach education, and we do conference planning. we are now a nonprofit with a podcast, where before we were just a podcast, and then we became a podcast with a nonprofit. but the nonprofit is growing by leaps and bounds and we're super excited about it. And you can find all the information about all that stuff at asilentwarwithin.com. Also, one of the big reasons that we're able to continue on is our founding sponsor, Five Arrows Forge. You guys know our co host Jason. we actually got to meet him in person. That dude's huge. Angel: He is so tall, said Kevin Whitsell: he's so big, I had no idea. Angel: I know. Kevin Whitsell: you guys see him on screen, he doesn't look h you know, I was thinking short stumpy and this guy's six five, all of you Angel: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: know, three bills and he's just huge. he is a big guy. He's a football player for sure. Had to have been. And But he's our founding sponsor. his coaching business that he has is absolutely phenomenal. I've actually started getting with him, you know, once, twice a month and he just talks me through some stuff and pours into me. It's so awesome to have somebody like that in your life. So five arrows forge, go see them. Five arrowsforge dot com is where you can find all their stuff. And we're just super excited to keep doing this. Go look at all our stuff. Go do all the things. And of course, if you're on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, any of those streaming platforms, share, comment, all those things to make sure that the platform knows to keep pushing our content to you. if you're watching some of our clips on social media, do the same thing because that lets them know that you like what you're looking at. so again, Lee, thank you. Angel, as always, you do a great job. she is she is one of the huge reasons we stay on the air, no doubt. She is the savior of a silent war within. I say that often. she Lee Wainright: She's

amazing. Kevin Whitsell: she's amazing. She is absolutely amazing. Take take your flowers, girl. She's awesome. Lee Wainright: Yeah. Angel: I'm trying, I'm trying to accept it. Jason fussed at me, so Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, you yeah, you are awesome. so as you wanna do the sign off? Hey, I am with it. I love it. Lee Wainright: Yeah. Angel: On that note, you can let me do the sign off. Yes. Lee Wainright: Well Hey, real quick, I just wanna thank y'all for doing what you're doing. 'Cause it does mean a lot that y'all are taking your time to do this for people out there. So thank you guys for everything you guys are doing. Kevin Whitsell: we didn't ask Lee the famous last question. Lee, do you have any questions for us? Angel: yeah. Kevin Whitsell: That's something we started asking. Lee Wainright: See now I mean, so for you guys, have y'all been through I know you said you have, but what was what was your turning point in the mental health realm? Kevin Whitsell: So my turning point was a pediatric drowning I had in two thousand seventeen that I talk openly about and I shoved it into what I call the proverbial suitcase. and I did not realize how much throughout the years that I had put in that suitcase. And five years later, the hinges busted open in a violent way. because I had a violent outburst over something silly that my wife and I were having not even an argument, just a heated discussion. but something about that heated discussion took me back to that moment in time where everything started to turn. and just beating up my shit and all stuff. she she wound up leaving. And it was just I remember going through the first couple weeks of the therapy journey, and I just felt so alone and isolated. And once I got through my journey and kind of worked on myself a lot, I said I don't want anybody to feel like that. And that's where the idea was was born from. And it just kinda built and built and built until I finally said, Okay, let's do it. somebody gave me that nudge enough for me to jump off that cliff and just start making podcasts. And it just kinda took off from there. Angel: I was a paramedic. I had been about six months by myself and had a sixteen year old male that attempted suicide with a shotgun to his face and survived. And he was begging me to save him. He had just enough tongue that I could understand. Save me. I'm sorry. and I had a sixteen year old boy at home at the time. And I was working for a really bad manager. And afterwards he called. No, I'm wrong. I called him and I said, Look, we're gonna be down in a few minutes. I need to take a shower. There's more blood on me than in the boy now. I'll be okay. Give me a minute. And he said, Angel, you had trouble a few weeks ago with a bad wreck. Two young kids lost their mom and daddy. They were dead in the car wreck. That would have bothered anybody. He said, Maybe this job isn't for you. And I said, I'm gonna show you what ain't for you. Me. Cause I I you ain't talking to me like that.

I was in a real bad place mentally. I Lee Wainright: Yeah. Angel: loaded my stuff up in my car and I left, walked off the job, abandoned the ambulance. That is not the way to handle it. But Lee Wainright: No. Angel: I just had had and it was no If he had just gave me a minute and been supportive and been like, hey, what do you need? I would have been fine. And and I recovered by by the grace of God. And Kevin started doing podcasts. And we were being supported from a distance. And I was off work and he texted me one Saturday morning and said, I need your help. Will you help me with the podcast? And I was like, I'm game. I said, I don't know what we're doing, but let's do it. And I in the moment I thought, Kevin's got a wild hair, I'll ride this Lee Wainright: Yeah. Angel: until it ends. No, here we are a year later. Lee Wainright: Pretty cool. That's that's amazing. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Well, Lee again, thank you so much. Angel, thank you for everything that you do and entertaining my wild hair that one time that turned into not so much of a wild hair, right? Angel: Yeah, that's okay. Lee Wainright: It's full time job at this point. Angel: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: near about it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. F especially for Angel. All right, Angel, Angel: No. Kevin Whitsell: hit with the weekly sign off. You hear it every week, but Angel's gonna do it this week. I'm ready. Angel: That's right. Y'all be safe. Take care of your mind. And we will talk soon. Bye everybody. Kevin Whitsell: Bah. The war isn't fought in the flashing lights or the chaos of the call. It's fought in the quiet after the rig is backed in and the boots are off and the noise dies down. If today's conversation hit home, don't keep it to yourself. Share the episode with a brother or sister on your shift who needs to hear they aren't fighting alone. Take 10 seconds right now, rate, review, and leave a comment on whatever platform you're listening on. Every review, every comment, and every share helps us break through the silence that we are fighting against and help those providers who are bleeding out in the dark. We read every single message and we love to interact with you. None of this happens in a vacuum. A massive thank you to our incredible team here at Asilent War Within. They work tirelessly to make sure this platform stays standing. And a special non-negotiable thank you to our founding sponsor, Five Arrows Forge. Without the belief and backing of Five Arrows Forge, this show simply would not exist. Founded by firefighter author and NLP master coach Jason Minershagen, Five Arrows Forge is bringing real operational level mental health readiness to first responders, men, and fathers. They take mindset coaching out of the classroom and put it right where it belongs, the home front. If you are ready to break repeating cycles, shift limiting beliefs, and lead your family with conviction, go visit them right now at fivearrowsforge.com. If you're struggling and you need real vetted resources, or if you just need a safe place to land, go to our hub, a silentworldin.com. Everything we do, every resource we've gathered is right there waiting for you. Remember. The war in your own head stops the moment you stop fighting it alone.