Dispatched & Dysfunctional: Unpacking Critical Runs, Trench Syndrome, and Mental Health bölümünün tam dökümü

noticing like all this stuff is starting to catch up to me and I'm starting to feel something that I don't really like that much. Chris Stockton: So, you know, the funny story on that is I actually didn't notice it. My wife did. Kevin Whitsell: It's always somebody else. Chris Stockton: We Yeah, yeah. So she straight up told me one day I got off got home, I was working nine one one. 'cause even when I worked offshore I still worked nine one one on the ambulance. I was never off the truck. but she told me one day I got home, she's like, Look, you're acting more irritated, you're being more, you know, confrontational towards the kids, towards me. What's going on? And I didn't honestly think anything was I like, No, no, no, nothing. And then I started thinking that day, I was like, crap, we just worked three or four cardiac arrest in one day and we didn't get any we didn't get any ROSC all of them. So I'm like, wait, hold on, I beat myself up over this and I'm bringing it home towards the family. Like, how many other times have I done this and not noticed it? You know, and even my daughters, they're teenagers and they were like, Dad, you were just a complete butthole. You know, they're they were we're walking on eggshells every time you come home. We're trying to figure out what words we can say, what words we can't say, what what would set you off, what wouldn't set you off, how we could help you, you know, a and it it was just like, Wait, that's that's a lot of weight for the families to be able to carry as well as our own Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Chris Stockton: to try to figure out what's going on with us. And we don't even realize it half the time because, you know, mentally we are compartmentalizing it. We are trying to sanction it off to where it's in a lockbox to where no one can see it. We don't even try to see it. And Kevin Whitsell: That's it. Chris Stockton: and it builds up, like you said, the cumulative stress in the end of of it creates the PTSD. It creates the the horrors that we dream every night in our dreams. And it's just a a horrible feeling for us in the end to not know that the job we love is mentally killing us. Jason Meinershagen: I wanna that's a good point. And and I'm wanna backtrack into something you said earlier that's got me thinking. You you you talked about doing some of your offshore stints. Hitch, hitches. Chris Stockton: Yes, sir. Jason Meinershagen: that that anywhere from seven seven days, two weeks, a month, sometimes four months when it goes horribly wrong, in your words. and and then and then you talked you do you you touched briefly on how it was your wife that pointed out the thing that you've changed. and I wanna I I wanna pause here just for a minute and celebrate a win in your life. I don't know if you've if if if if you see it this or not. hopefully you already do. But the fact that your daughters, you said your daughters are teenagers now. Chris Stockton: Yes, sir. Jason Meinershagen: The fact that

your teenage kids can come to you and express what you just shared that they expressed to you, talk to you openly about how you are behaving, acting, responding, all all those things, how you're different and how you've changed. Dude celebrate that and give yourself a pat on the back because that the ability to have that type of relationship with a teenager is that's rare. That's it is huge. And it's rare in Kevin Whitsell: Huge, huge. Mm-hmm. Jason Meinershagen: this day and age. I can speak from personal experience that my my my I don't know that my boys ever would feel comfortable approaching me without me being the one to instigate that conversation. So that's you know kudos. So celebrate that. That's pretty cool. But let's and let's let's let's stay on that topic of our families for a bit. When when you talk about being gone for a I don't know, I do a 4896 in in my shift. you know, so I'm gone for two days, maybe three if I pick up a side job on that third day or an idea overtime. What's that look like with because I think this is an unexplored, not not really under an underexplored, this is an underexplored topic in mental health is how our job affects the family. Chris Stockton: I agree a hundred percent on that. I I yes, a hundred percent. I'm actually in the middle of writing a book on that one. But yes, a hundred percent. Jason Meinershagen: Nice. Chris Stockton: you know, and and Kevin Whitsell: That's awesome. Chris Stockton: like you said, our our families don't expect or ask of us, you know, of much of anything on that. They're hey, go to work, be safe, get home. But we don't realize every day, day in, day out. Like you said, you're working a forty eight ninety six. I was My normal schedule offshores were twenty eight to twenty eights is what I was normally working. That was my average. and I didn't realize, like you said, just the time away from home, just and even on the twenty four forty eight when I was working that, you know, it it it's kind of a I guess a misconception or a misnomer for us that we don't realize how much the families are not quite understanding what we're going through on a daily basis or what calls we're actually seeing because they're scared to ask us what we're seeing. and when we come home, they are always at that mercy of, crap, did they have a good day? Did they have a bad day? Did they have a really bad call? Did they save people? Did they lose people? You know, and I I on my show I talked to an author about he wrote about an Alabama firefighter who lost six patients to save two. And Kevin Whitsell: Jeez. Chris Stockton: He was and as I told him, I was like, you know, the loss of the six is a lot greater than the than the than Kevin Whitsell: Save of the two. Chris Stockton: the one of the two. And that sucks to say at that point. But Kevin Whitsell: But that's the truth about it. Chris Stockton: it is. And that is a lot of weight. Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris Stockton: That is a lot of weight

on ourselves and our families to be able to comprehend it and understand, you know, what we're really going through in our minds. and as you said Jason Meinershagen: Have you found it go ahead, go ahead, finish the thought. Chris Stockton: you're good, Matt. And as you said, you you have t Jason Meinershagen: I was gonna say, like, I have have you found a way like what's working for you and your family, in in how to communicate, how to let her know, how to let your kids know? Are they just able to pick up on those those those verbal and nonverbal cues now? Or do you have a system for coming home saying, Hey man, I had a crap day. I I need a couple of minutes, I need some patience, I need some I need some love. Whatever that looks like. What's that look like for you? Chris Stockton: So for me on bad days it's normally if I get home on the door and ninety percent of the time they can see it on my face. But if I say, Hey, look, give me a few minutes, I gotta just decompress, leave me alone for a few minutes, they know it was a bad shift. They know something a riot went wrong and that's normally when the wife or the kids will give me the time I need and they'd be like, Hey, what can we do to help you? You know, what what actually what can you tell us about because my kids have always been interested in the in in the in the world. we've gotten kicked out of restaurants, we've gotten kicked out of numerous public places because I'll they'll they'll ask me how my day was and you know our s our call as we go on. It's like, you know other people are eating. Yeah, I'm sorry, but my kids are asking Jason Meinershagen: That was one of the first rules. Yeah, that was one of the first rules my wife had to put in place. Like I I I don't mind talking about the blood guts and gore. I don't necessarily want to hear it, but I definitely don't want to hear it while I'm eating. I'm like, Yeah, Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, very well. Jason Meinershagen: I forget the kitchen table here is a little different than it is at the firehouse. So I mean that's good yeah. Kevin Whitsell: Jason, can I interrupt you for just a second? So y you said something that I'm not gonna be able to just squeak past. Like you You seem to have the part that I struggle with the most more so figured out. And I want to be clear to everybody. I don't know if everybody listened to last week's episode, but there is a particular voiceover section in there that I added post production that was me telling like I'm not the guy that's got this all figured out. We're not mental health gurus, we're not psychologists, psychiatrists, nothing like that. We're s we're learning with you guys. When you know when you're listening to the show, we have a guest, we're we're actively engaged and participating in the learning part of it. But you have the part that I wish I had better. Jason's got a story that he's told multiple times, and it it in your story, Jason, it's it almost looks like a one-and-done. Like you came in

and realized that you were affecting your household and decided to make a change. I have struggled with that my entire career, even now having a very full plate, very a lot of coals in the fire. even even the other morning, and this was on Monday that that we recorded this and I I you know did the post-production work. you know, I was mean to my six-year-old son because Not because he did anything. He was innocent in the whole thing. It was just something that set me off and I'm you know, my tone changed and turned into yelling. So tell me the the the real ways that you walk in knowing that your plate's full, knowing that you've done a lot, knowing that you've had these critical runs. What do you say to yourself to decompress? What's the what's the actionable item here that somebody can take away from this that's struggling with the same thing that I often struggle with? Chris Stockton: Are you talking to me or Jason? Kevin Whitsell: No, but I mean both. This is an open conversation. But but I was Chris Stockton: Alrighty. Jason Meinershagen: I'll let you go first. Yeah. Yeah, Kevin Whitsell: posing the question to you 'cause you seem like you got it figured out. Jason Meinershagen: yeah, I was gonna say, I don't know. Yeah. So I'll yeah, I'll let you go first and Chris Stockton: I I I don't have it all figured out Jason Meinershagen: then I'll chime in. Chris Stockton: I I don't have it all figured out, but in all honesty, the way I do it is I I have to remind myself, and this is what helps me, is I have to remind myself they don't see what we see. They don't know what we know. And that every t every time I have a bad call, I always remember that when I come home. They don't know what I know, they don't see what I see. They don't understand or comprehend the way we comprehend or understand. You know, we when we do the calls that we do, we have to go at it at a clinical's perspective. We have to go at it as all eyes, all hands on deck, looking in. And that's how I bring it back home is I've always told my kids when they were younger since they were younger is I'm not gonna hide nothing from you. I don't want you to hide anything from me. So As I said earlier, we've gotten kicked out of restaurants because I've explained vivid details of calls. And that to me, having the open communication helps a lot. I know a lot of medics, a lot of firefighters draw that line when they come home that we don't talk about it at home. And that's a great standard to have if it works for you that way. But if your spouses and your families and my again, as you said, Kevin, this is not I'm not a specialist by any means. I'm learning. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, I get it. Chris Stockton: but You know, the the way that we can all talk to our loved ones, our friends, it it it kind of helps relieve that we feel alone in the end. And that I think is the biggest thing. because when we are all taught in the beginning of school or we get on the trucks, we're all taught like we said

earlier, get over it. You're you're gonna get over it. You know, that's always the worst. This is how it's been done for years, this is how we've always done it. You know, those those phrases that drive me insane. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, that'll chap my behind quicker Chris Stockton: But Kevin Whitsell: than anything. Chris Stockton: yeah, a hundred percent. And i it's I think to me is when I get home I have to honestly think about it. Like look, I can't I can't explain it to a a hundred percent at front because it'll it'll cause me more stress. But if we go like for instance the a a funny story about it is I had a phone call and I had a gentleman who decided to shove frozen sausages up his behind. Well We were eating at a barbecue restaurant. So guess what we get kicked up for? I'm explaining exactly what happened, how they got fr how him and his boyfriend got frozen together and ta da. It was, you know. But again, and the a lot I think a lot of it is I started with the funny calls, I started with the light calls to see how the family would respond. And after doing that, they started asking more details on the bad calls. I would tell hey, look, I'm sorry I had a bad call that day. What happened? Okay. Go into brief detail of, you know, hey, we lost a kid or motorcycle, whatever. and they'd be like, well, how did that happen? What happened? Can you explain it to us so we can understand? And I think i even my therapist and my psychiatrist tell the same thing. Yes, I am seeking help for this. but they tell me the same thing that if we are able to verbalize it. If we are able to get it out of our heads into the open air, it will help relieve a lot of the stress that we current create ourselves. Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. There's a lot of truth in that. Like the just speaking something into existence almost releases it. It it it's a it's a way to release it, that that weight and that pressure, or that guilt, or whatever it is, whatever negative emotion that we're feeling as a result of that. And I think I'm gonna pause here for just a second and remind our our viewers that it's This is one solution, right? Right? This is this is what's working for Chris. And you talked about it earlier. I just wanna you you you you you prefaced it, but I I wanna make sure nobody missed that. That sh sharing every detail with our families is not necessarily right in every situation and for all people. There are definitely those individuals out there that that have a family dynamic that you you don't want to share all the specific details with. Me personally, I I I struggled for a long time to share a lot of even surface level or one layer below the surface of what I experienced and and the and the and the in the hard calls with my family. Because I as a man look to my role as the provider and the protector of my family, that that just re it just it in in a way that's that's giving them a secondary trauma. And there's a borderline there, right? Like, how much can we share with somebody that's not prepared to hear that and with without without traumatizing them as well? And on the same sentence, I I've I've got sons that have explored the the possibility of stepping into the career. So there's a balance of not traumatizing them with my trauma and preparing them for what this job will do to them. in in in in a very real way emotionally and mentally. and Kevin, you're I I'm a backtrack there. You said however you explain it, you Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Jason Meinershagen: know, we're just and you're 100% right. Like we don't have it all figured out. We don't we don't have all the solutions. I don't believe anybody does. Any therapist, any counselor, any psychiatrist, psychologist, doctor that says they have it all figured out, that's the last person I want to see. There's a reason Chris Stockton: Are full of Jason Meinershagen: they say they're well there's there's Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Jason Meinershagen: a reason they call it practicing medicine. So Chris Stockton: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: That's exactly right. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, so I I say that as I'm just one blind squirrel leading another blind squirrel down the path looking for a nut, man. That's that's just it. But this is how we get there, right? We just we just have conversations that are open and vulnerable. And you know, for me, Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, that's right. Jason Meinershagen: you you you kinda mentioned my story and briefly that story is me coming home in in the twenty tens where I was probably I don't even remember what year it was, but I was probably fifteen, sixteen years on the job. And walking into the four-year of my house, I live in a split level and I stopped at the bottom of the steps and just kind of waited and I'm listening and I hear my boys, they're toddlers and my daughter, they're all upstairs playing, they're giggling, they're having fun, they're laughing, they're doing what kids do, right? It's just a joy filled home for about sixty seconds until they realized I was home. And then it got hushed and it was shh, dad's home. Dude, when it shifts from The excited, Dad's home, daddy, daddy, and you're at the top of the stairs waiting to give me a hug, and you're pulling at my pants leg trying to trying to get my attention to, hmm, dad's home. Dude, that was a gut punch that I'll never forget. And you know, because they were because they were questioning, I didn't know it at the time. I didn't it took a lot of years of retrospective to discover this, but they they were questioning which version of dad was coming home. Right? Is dad Dad coming home as daddy or is dad coming home as dad? And you know, it so for me that was the gut punch, but it was also it was not the impetus for change for me. Like it it was unconsciously I'm aware of that, but for me, I struggled for a lot of years still staying in the pit, not knowing how to get help, not really even truly admitting that I needed help. Like this isn't a me problem, this is

somebody else's problem. so man, I think I I think having the conversations with our families is man, I think it's crucial. There's a reason the divorce rate among first responders is as high as it is. And Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, absolutely. Chris Stockton: So Jason Meinershagen: that doesn't mean the share all the details and unpack every little yeah, go ahead. Chris Stockton: Right, so on that just to piggyback off you on that, i is so what how I started was just basic like you said, basic, basic information. Just the basic of, hey, I ran a call, I lost Or hey, I ran a call, it was a very bad wreck. That was all I started with in the beginning. But once the wife and the kids started digging for more details, i and I understood that they wanted the details, not that I was forcing the details on them. That's something I wanted to let everybody know is you cannot force this on your families. They have to be willing to help accept your traumas. They have to be willing to accept our realm of work. Because if you do force it upon them, as Kevin and Jason said a minute ago, you are going to cause them secondary trauma. You are going to cause some kind of PTSD in your family that you don't even realize you're causing. And that's, you know. the biggest thing is we have to have open communications. You have to you know, as you asked earlier, is is if I'm going into too much detail, my wife will be like, hey, dial down. Or, you know, there she'll say some kind of phrase to let me know, hey, you're kind of going a little bit above the top. Let's let's dial it back or something to where it's not as as emotional or, you know, wholesome, if you will, on the family. And as you said, Jason, that that that that realization of coming home of crap daddy's home and then well dad's home. That that that is the biggest gut punch any of us could ever have. I went through it before, my daughters were having a sleepover and as soon as I get home do they were laughing. I heard up through the windows when I walked up and then as soon as I go through that door it was just quiet. So yeah, I I feel you on that one and that that is the biggest gut wrench you could ever feel as a parent. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, yeah, it definitely was. No, you're good, man. This is good stuff. No, this is good stuff. And Kevin Whitsell: Jason, sorry for derailing the whole ho whole whole thing there. I was listening Jason Meinershagen: I think I I think to kind of answer your question, Kevin, my from my side of that, coming back to, you know, what's the for me the mechanism of coming home and transitioning after a hard day or a hard shift and communicating that first, like for me, step one is on the drive home, I'm I'm listening to some praise and worship music. couple of key songs that really reframe my mind around what I do and why I do it. It really reground me in my purpose. and in some sense remind me that I signed up for this. And and that it's a blessing and a and an opportunity to be a

a follower of Christ who is light in a dark world. Right. So that that drive home for me, no granted my drive home now is probably like five minutes. So I don't get like the full hour that some guys get. so when I get home, if I've if if I've not reached that place yet, sometimes I'll just keep driving. I'll just drive up and down the interstate until I get to that point. or I'll just sit in the driveway. but the other mechanism for me really to have that transition is I have a tree in my yard. And I I'm I might have talked about it when I did my interview last year sometime. It's to me, I call it the my my trouble tree. I didn't intentionally plant it for this purpose. Some people do. That's where I I I I stole the idea from somebody who who just took a tree and planted it in the front yard where you have to pass it. And every day as I pass it, I'm I'm visualizing this process of just all of my crap being dropped on the floor of this tree because this this tree is going to turn it into oxygen and regenerate the the the earth with it. And as often as I try, as often as I can, I try to do that barefoot. Just to reground myself with creation because that's a there's a I don't know, there's a there's probably a Shakira or something. I don't know. There's some kind of art. I don't know what it's called. That's a that's not I don't know. I don't know what it's yeah, I don't know what Kevin Whitsell: That's I mean that I mean Shakira Jason Meinershagen: it's called, but it's basically just the the the the process of grounding yourself to creation and and being in touch Kevin Whitsell: sh sh Jason Meinershagen: with creation. There's there's a name for it. I don't know what it is. Kevin Whitsell: I w Chris Stockton: Let me try to say chocolate. Kevin Whitsell: I I shock yeah, I wanna be I mean Jason Meinershagen: Chakra? Is that what it? That might be it. That might be it. Chris Stockton: Yes. Kevin Whitsell: I wanna be extremely clear here that Shakira is also a form of art. Let's not get that confused. But that's not the art we're talking Jason Meinershagen: Okay, okay. Kevin Whitsell: about here. Jason Meinershagen: that's good stuff, man. I appreciate you Kevin Whitsell: I got Jason Meinershagen: guys bearing with me on that. Let's let's let's let's pivot. Let's maybe come back off this rabbit trail. Let's get back on track. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, yeah, well yeah, let's let's get back on track. Jason Meinershagen: so so so Chris, unpack for us what the process looked like for you where you you decided to launch your business, Critical Run, and then the podcast, the the dispatched and dysfunctional podcast. Like what what was the impetus for that? What was the What was the process for that? Not the actual process of once you decided to do it, but what led to that? What were the events leading to you saying, Hey man, I think I got something here and I wanna I wanna turn it into a business and a podcast? Chris Stockton: So honestly it started as I had a

really bad call off shore. I actually had a buddy I worked with for five years, kill himself on board. I was the one that found him. I was the one that got him down, I was the one that pronounced him, I was the one that did, you know, everything and then I had to get a a few of the guys that knew him for twenty plus years to help me get him off the rafters and help him get help me get him to the heliport, you know, the helipad. So I I was talking to my wife and the therapist that the company paid for. That didn't help one bit on that part. That's something else. But you know, we the wife was like, Hey, you're offshore. I know when you're home you have outlets. You don't have an outlet out there. I'm like, okay. It's a good point. So I actually just started writing calls that I've ran before and I'm like, you know what? Maybe some other people need to hear this. Maybe it's a good way to to to have an outlet that's not an illegal or an illicit outlet that that's a bad way to do things. which I know a lot of us do. but my outlets when I'm home is go outside, anything outdoors, you know. and when I was out there it was like, Well crap, I can't really record because I'm on company time, but I can at least write some scripts, I can preface things. I I and and and the critical run part is I was trying to do a dual purpose. I I want to start a training type program. I just don't know how to get this off the r ground yet. If I got I I want to get a training program off the ground to be able to help other first responders with mental health. because as Kevin said earlier is the critical runs that we run are the worst ones that we do run. And You know, the the podcast to me is it it's a huge stress reliever being able to talk to other responders and I've had psychologists, therapists, and all kinds of things on mine that that it it's it's so interesting to see the true relationships that we ourselves have with our own traumas. and I think it was a therapist I talked to before. He was explaining to me that a lot of our traumas that we run out in the field that we we hold on to, we somehow relate back to our own lives. You know, so for instance, me on my first call with a baby, my kids weren't very much older than her at that time. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Chris Stockton: And that to me set a standard in my head like, holy crap, that that's right. You know, that that's That's why a lot of us hold on to the calls we hold on to is there is something that we can relate to in our own lives that makes us hold on to it. And and then again, I wouldn't try to get off track too much, but the whole podcast and the whole, you know, critical run part was a a an outlet for me. And it it helped tremendously to be able to get it out there and and other people understand exactly what what's going on in my head and and hopefully someone else could relate to it and understand, hey, I'm not alone. I'm not by Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Chris Stockton: myself. I there is others

like me. There's other people that will be able to help do what I I I I need to understand, you know? Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, and that's I just thank you for sharing that because one, I'm glad you're finding healing and and recovery in that process. Chris Stockton: Thank you. Jason Meinershagen: Same for me. Everything I'm doing, it's it's a twofold purpose. One, I'm finding I didn't necessarily and I and I don't think you necessarily s from what I just heard, we're not doing what we do to find intentionally set up and be like, Hey, I want to heal and recover, so I think I'm gonna start a podcast. Dude, that's just a secondary byproduct of of of the of the work, Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. Jason Meinershagen: right? So it's it's it's really just because I think people that have been where we're at and have crawled out of the pits of I mean it's it's the for me it's the it's I it's spiritual warfare. I don't know what your your your your faith belief is, but for me it's spiritual warfare. It's it's it's I I I literally believe I crawled out of the grasp and and the grips of Satan's claws. Because it's all spiritual warfare. And we do it because we want to help other people and remind them that we're not alone. So I'm gonna pause here again for our viewers and just remind you that whatever it is you're in right now, man, you are not alone. I guarantee you with a hundred percent accuracy, there are eight billion people on this planet. I don't know how many first responders there are in just the United States of America, but this podcast has the potential to reach across the globe. Hundreds of thousands Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, absolutely. Jason Meinershagen: of first responders. You are d if if you how how How egotistical and selfish is it to think you're the only one that's experiencing what you're experiencing right now? That you're the only one that's been in the position that you're in right now. Everything we experience is unique to us, right? but don't for one second think that you're the only one that's going through that emotion or that feeling or that dark night of the soul. Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. Jason Meinershagen: However, you want to fill in the blank. I guarantee you there's somebody in there with you. And it's incumbent upon. Well, it's incumbent upon us who have climbed out of the hole to look back into the hole and pull people behind us. And it's incumbent upon the people that are still in the hole to look up and put your hand out and be ready to get pulled out and and and do the work. 'Cause it's it y you you can't be pulled out of the pit. You have to climb out of the pit. There are people and resources and tools and and all the things that can help you climb out of the pit, but you the the work is yours to do, right? So that's a that's that's phenomenal. Thanks for sharing that. So what I'm I'm curious what kind of response you got from from your coworkers or fellow first responders when you first started speaking openly about your trauma on the mic. Chris Stockton: So at first, and just to piggyback off you real quick, Jason, there's four point six estimated million first responders in the United States. Jason Meinershagen: There you go. Chris Stockton: but to pi to to answer that question is at first it was a lot of thought it was a joke. They're like, really? That's you think that's really gonna help? Like It might. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I Jason Meinershagen: Same. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: Yes, I am. Chris Stockton: I wonder In all honesty, if that's why we don't have enough podcasts that do this for us. but and again, at first I I I I had to run it up the chain of command because I was like, Hey, is this possible to do off while I'm off duty? It can I do it on duty? You know, what's the legalities, what's the the issues? and I was told as long as I don't give any identifiable information of companies or patients, then they're fine with it as long as it's not on duty. And my supervisor actually reached out to me after I taught reached the legal team and he was actually a buddy of mine for a long time. And he was like, Hey, Chris, he's like, I think you're doing a great thing. There needs to be more like this. There needs to be more people that are willing to talk about their traumas, that are willing to help others with their traumas. And as you said earlier, you this isn't an overnight thing. This is not a a a a weak thing. This takes years and years to help alleviate what is going on in your own brain. You know, our our own minds are our own worst enemies. And y you're not able to be pulled out without wanting to help yourself to get out of that hole as Jason was talking about earlier. Kevin Whitsell: Exactly right. Chris Stockton: And i you know, it's just it's it's amazing to be able to talk to people like y'all. You know, and and to understand that there's not I'm not alone in this. And that's that to me is that was the biggest reason. Is I wanted to let others know that they're not alone. There is reasons. There is resources. You know, there is veterans lines, there is the suicide hotline, there is all of this. Jason Meinershagen: Thanks for sharing that. before I kick it over to Kevin and let him chime back in. I feel like I'm hogging the mic. you said something there I wanna I wanna kinda piggyback off of. Individually we can be our own worst enemy. Corporately within the community, we are our own worst enemy. The Brotherhood air Kevin Whitsell: Yes, yes. Jason Meinershagen: quotes again for our for our listeners, the brotherhood the sisterhood, the the fire family, the EMS family, whatever we wanna call it. Dude, there is I I'm I'm still experiencing some of what you what you just talked about when you first came out and and people are looking at you going, What what? What really? Do you think that'll help? The questions I'm getting are who are you? Like what what what have you done? You haven't done what some of these other guys are doing that

that have seen, you know, been off to war or lived in nine eleven or You know, s what whatever, fill in the blank the of that trauma comparison. yeah. And it's, you Chris Stockton: And I got that too, I really did. So I yeah. Jason Meinershagen: know, for me it's frustrating because it's like, hey, dude, I I want nothing more than for my people to win. That's it. If you're in the brotherhood, if you're in the sisterhood, if you're in my circle of influence, there's nothing more I want in your life than for you to achieve your desired outcome. So why do we Kevin Whitsell: When Jason Meinershagen: as a community have to be so I'm gonna lose my faith. I'm gonna lose my. I'm gonna lose my religion here and start getting on the soapbox and cussing. Like, well, I don't understand it. I'll never understand it. And and I and I say that with with a with a Chris Stockton: All love. Jason Meinershagen: with an eye turned in in toward myself. I've I've fallen victim to it. Over the years, I've been a part of that. Right. And so for for from my point moving forward, when I when when I've I mean, the best we can do, we're just too, you know, here, we're just three blind squirrels. leading three blind blind squirrels down the path. So as we learn from our mistakes, it's like, dude, for me now moving forward, when when there's the rumor mill or the bash talking or the trash talking or tearing somebody down for any other reason, I'll I'll I dude I I finally have just reached a point in my life where I'll do one of two things. I'll either get up and walk out because I don't want to be part of it, or given the right situation, I'll I'll just look at and say, man, it's a good thing, you know, It's a good thing nobody looks at your life that way. you know, with the same and and just turn it back on because it's like I you're gonna tell me that I like I I just to me it just no place for it anymore. So that's my soapbox. Kevin Whitsell: No, I I agree. Chris Stockton: And honestly, and honestly, I think it falls back to the beginning as we spoke about earlier is you know, EMS, fire, police, all of us never imagined or the the people who started this, I should say, never would have imagined the things that we could see to this day. You know, the the amount of technology, the amount of in inventions that have created such havoc on ourselves in our realms is tremendous, you know, and I I hate to say it, but w as you said earlier, is we are our own worst enemy and our friends or families, as you called it, air quotes again, like to I I would say like to try to mediate their own pain by torturing others. And I wonder if that's what it is or if it's just false. Jason Meinershagen: That's part of it. Chris Stockton: And and a hundred percent. Kevin Whitsell: yeah, that's now that's fantastic. I yeah. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, that's part of it. Like I so I just text Kevin offline. I'm like, hey man, you're it. But dude, we're here, so I'm gonna keep going. Like there's a th th

there's there is a part of that. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, take it, take it. Chris Stockton: All right. Jason Meinershagen: I've done a lot of I've I've got over five hundred hours into learning neuroscience and learning NLP and you know, all the things that I want to have under my belt as I step into a room of co of of of coaching people and and speaking in front of of people. And Dude, there is when when you start learning psychology and why people do what they do, there's definitely an element of anytime somebody is trash talking another person, making them what what they're doing is lifting themselves up in their own eyes by tearing somebody else down. I mean, at at the Kevin Whitsell: That's it. Chris Stockton: Eat one. Jason Meinershagen: core, at the core of it, that's that that's what it is. Is this this person is achieving something that I feel like I should have or fill in the blank for whatever reason, I don't want them to have it because I'm not a part of that. And I'm I'm gonna do whatever I can to tear it down. And I'll say this, I wasn't gonna say this earlier, but this th there's an element of We cannot see in others what does not or did not previously exist within ourselves. When I look at I got two faces in my when I look at my arch nemesis in the fire service, that person that has just been the bane of my existence. Just like, dude, you can't look at when I see him, when I hear his name, when I think of him. I get enraged. And I the qualities that that that piss me off about him, they're in me. They're a hundred percent in me. And I think we forget that as people. We forget that that that dude, anytime you're you're mad at it, and and that goes for the positive. Like how hard is it for us to accept a compliment? And to say, like Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. Chris Stockton: it's not. Jason Meinershagen: like if I said to you, Chris, man, you're doing great work, you got your shit together. you ain't figured it out yet, but you're working on it. you know, you got a beautiful family. You the the the podcast is, Kevin Whitsell: We're we're always like, no, no, no. Jason Meinershagen: yeah. We're like, no, man, no, thanks, man. No, it's all so-and-so, or it's g giving Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Jason Meinershagen: it to God, which rightfully so. But, you know, it's it's all about passing those compliments off when in reality, flip that script. Anytime I compliment you and I see in you happiness, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, and and you fill in the blank. I can only see that in you because it exists it either exists in me now or it has existed with me within me in the past. Right. So and yeah. I'm going down a rabbit trail. I'm gonna stop. Chris Stockton: We're good. Kevin Whitsell: No, no, I I love this. I absolutely love this. And my camera's off because I'm I'll edit this part out, but my Walmart order is about to be here, so I'm fixing to have to jump up and go meet them. I thought they were gonna take like three hours like they usually do, but all of a sudden they wanna be quick today. But I really want to talk about like So so Jason and you hit on it, both of you hit on it. I think this is a wonderful kind of transition point, especially since Jason got on his his rage-filled rabbit trail. I Chris Stockton: I like race about trabbing trap rabbit holes. It's fine. Kevin Whitsell: me too. I'm all for it. But I feel like that we chronically will adopt things that maybe make us feel good in the moment. But are extremely detrimental. So what are what what do you see with your guest with all your years of service? What are we using to cope unhealthfully unhealthy? What unhealthy ways are we coping? Chris Stockton: God. let's name the ways. let's see. I know Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm. Chris Stockton: you know the top ones of course alcohol, drug abuse. Kevin Whitsell: yeah. Chris Stockton: I and I actually had sorry, my little kitties drive me insane. and I've actually witnessed this one too, is I've had a partner I worked with on the truck that every time we had a bad call, they would go home and they would abuse their spouse. and I I I I don't understand that at all i i in any realm of w of thinking. But you know, i there's a lot of illegal activities a lot of us jump to because I think and it's been proven but in my opinion, i it's that we feel that we are invincible from a lot of things. and that is one thing that none of us are. Nobody is invincible. It don't matter if you're a police officer, it don't matter if you're a medic, EMT, firefighter, Kevin Whitsell: That's right. Chris Stockton: it you have to abide by the law a hundred percent. And going to do illicit activities, hookers, stealing cars, drugs, you know, all that, it it's gonna come back and bite you. And there's no reason to take yourself down such a hole that is gonna cause more dramatic in s circumstances in the end. or effects, I should say, that that you won't be ever be able to come back from. I know a guy that was great medic and he wound up getting arrested for using drugs. Guess what? He's no longer a medic. He's never going to be able to be a medic. That one decision that you make that will that you try to help yourself with will and can affect your entire life. It'll affect your entire family. Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. Chris Stockton: And the problem with that is you have Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. Chris Stockton: to learn how to reach out. You have to learn that every service now has some kind of mediation. You know, it be it a therapist, a pastor, a chaplain, whatever, someone is there or they will be able to call someone in to be able to help you. And I talked about it before in my podcast, is I think a lot of us are so scared. To ask for help because if we admit that there is something wrong with us due to this field, that we'll be taken out of this field. Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Chris Stockton: And I I do believe that is Kevin Whitsell: That's good. Chris Stockton: a double edged

sword that, you know, w sooner or later needs to be addressed in some kind of law. and and that's not it that's nothing that's ever gonna happen anytime within our lifetime probably, but again, you know, it it's something that should be looked at in a microscope. Like, hey, if our responders are having these issues, why are we going to punish them for coming forward? Instead of them going to do the illicit activities or the illegal activities or, you know, causing their own harm, I've seen self mutilation before from other medics and first responders. I've seen, you know, all kinds of things. And and there's just so many to list that I don't think we could honestly list them in this whole show. Jason Meinershagen: It's like a whistleblower. Like let's let's let's let's let's put this into the whistleblower laws. I mean it's similar, Chris Stockton: Right. I mean it really is Jason Meinershagen: right? It kinda is. It's just I'm blowing the whistle Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, yeah. Jason Meinershagen: on myself. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. So what what happens when you combine these critical calls? You combine the the mental toll that it takes on us. And then we've talked a lot about family, but what happens when you combine the mental toll, the critical calls, and everything that we deal with on a daily basis? And then you add one of those unhealthy coping mechanisms that we just talked about. What happens to the family dynamic? and again, I'm asking this not only from your personal perspective, but perspectives you've seen with your guests. I mean, because many times we've had guests on the show that have ruined their families because of one of these un unhealthy coping mechanisms. Chris Stockton: And you pretty much just said it is it's always ruined. There is some that are salvageable. not everyone is ruined from this. but I I I would say there's a great possibil a great percentage, not possibility, a very high percentage of people that do these things that cause their own divorces as you know, as as Jason said earlier, is we have such a high divorce rate in this in in our field because we don't open up. And I think on that other side of it is I wonder, and I do I have seen witnessed of it, from guest and personal experience, is it is from the responders going to do illegal activities, choosing drugs or alcohol over their family, cheating on their spouse with with hookers or mistresses, if you will. and it it's I think a their own detrimental energy causing it to themselves because they're trying to release their stress. They just don't know Kevin Whitsell: That's good. that's real good. You know putting too much of myself out there is what's happening. I I really have have, you know, there was a short time in my life where I did some very unhealthy coping mechan mechanisms. and part partook, I guess. Partaking? What's the right word? You're an English guy, Jason. Partook. Jason Meinershagen: Partook. Partook. Kevin Whitsell: There you go. Hey, see, learned a new word. I'm gonna put that in my vocabulary with cumulative. So of course, you know, I did the alcohol thing for a while. it was during my divorce. You know, I was using it just to get drunk enough to sleep, and everything would stop, you know, all the all the noise would stop. and that was really the end goal. But I think that many times when I did this, there was there was no positive outcome that I can see. But I just I I still struggle with the The fact of all this stuff, and I'm not I'm not even on an ambulance anymore, so I'm not even dealing with the the critical calls. I'm in management, so I sit in an office all day. but I think where mine has my noise has gotten so much louder and affected me in a way that I wasn't prepared for is the overwhelming busyness. So when I finally get back to my family, there is there is nothing Sometimes there is nothing left to give in my own mind and these very small, minute things. My wife is the I believe she's the owner of joy because she sees a messy house and toys in the floor and she's like, thank God we have a child that can make a mess and there's nothing wrong Jason Meinershagen: Mm. Kevin Whitsell: with them and there's nothing or or she can see dishes in the sink and thank God we have food. you know, look at the fellowship that we had during Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: this time, like all these things and I'm like, Lady, you are really Jason Meinershagen: Ha ha Kevin Whitsell: unnerving me with this joy thing. Jason Meinershagen: And we clean the house on every Monday, Thursday. Like every day you know, you you go back to those firehouse routines, like I can keep a firehouse Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Yeah. Jason Meinershagen: bathroom cleaner than we keep ours. What's up? Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Or I or a funny story, I walk in and to my son's bathroom because it was the one that was empty to do my my business and I look over and there is a Picasso painting on the cabinet and it's not with crayons. and I'm like, dude, this is too much. Like this is the straw that's gonna break the camel's back. Nobody wants jailhouse art in their bathroom at their house. I mean, they just don't. so it's I find it that it's the busyness, it's the little irritants, that will sometimes that's a cute cat. Chris Stockton: Thank you. Kevin Whitsell: put there's a Chris Stockton: She's right. Kevin Whitsell: I'm having to stop myself 'cause there was such an inappropriate joke that almost slipped out of my mouth and Jason Meinershagen: Ha ha ha. Kevin Whitsell: I forget where we are. Chris Stockton: Not my podcast, that's yours. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, yeah. man, that was tough. but I find all the little stressors get get so so much bigger when you don't turn the noise of the busyness off. And so Chris Stockton: So it's about your Kevin Whitsell: so go with your answer. Jason, hold this scene over for just a minute while I go get this damn Walmart order.

Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: He's texting me about this harmless dog that's outside. Yeah, he's a hundred and thirty Jason Meinershagen: Ha ha ha. Kevin Whitsell: pounds, but he's not gonna hurt you. Yeah. So y'all go ahead. Chris Stockton: He's big baby. That's how I yeah. So I kind of wanted to piggyback up what he just said real quick, Jason, is you know, as he said, he he did the alcohol to numb the noise. I don't know if y'all are gonna have this i in the end or not in here, but y you know, to numb the noise is only a temporary fix. It's not Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Chris Stockton: a true as you said, I've studied a little bit of psychology, not as much as you have, but I study a little bit and the minimalistic healing you do to yourself with alcohol or i anything really that doesn't truly fix the issue only causes it to exacerbate later. you can cause you can you you will have a temporary fix to a permanent solution that's not really copacetic to what you need to do. and that I think the way to think about it is, you know I I hate to put our ourselves in a realm like this, but if you think about our world that we work with, right? I would think we're more like addicts because of the way that we respond every day and we actually enjoy it. You know, we are it's a Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, it's an adrenaline rush. It's a it's it's it's it's it's adrenaline and we're addicted to the adrenaline. And to your you know, Chris Stockton: Exactly. Jason Meinershagen: that's yeah, we're just we're we're just adrenaline junkies and sometimes when we don't get the The fix through the adrenaline, we try to hit that fix somewhere else. Right? We we we go to that and that's you know, it's a reason alcohol is called a numbing. It w we we numb it. drugs numb it, right? So you can be addric addicted to the adrenaline of the job and Go to find your fix on your off time or your downtime through physical exercise. Chris Stockton: Right. There there's healthy ways to do Jason Meinershagen: parachuting, other yeah, other yeah, whatever. I mean, you name your adrenaline junkie way to hit that fix, it's out there, right? So, Chris Stockton: Even to me, you know, it it sounds weird but I I actually enjoy fishing more now but I find it more relaxing. And it's weird because it's Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, Sam. Yeah. What's your what's your what what's your fishing? What are you fishing for? Yeah. Yeah, I've gotten into crappie Chris Stockton: Anything and everything. I I really don't care. You know, it was funny the other day. Jason Meinershagen: fishing, but it's very similar. Like I I do I don't care. I just love being on the water. That's my piece. Chris Stockton: Well, it's like the a few months ago we I took my son fishing and he didn't catch anything. So the last few minutes I was like, All let's start reeling it again and he's like, My bait's gone again. I'm like, all well let's put a little bit more bait on to what happened. So we pull up a little

blue crab. And this this just made me so excit excited. He we brought a little blue crab and like and he's like, Hey, can we cook it? I'm like, Sure. Hey, whatever. Jason Meinershagen: Ha ha ha. Chris Stockton: We brought home, I steamed them and he's like, Hey, you Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Chris Stockton: know, when we go fishing again, can we catch more? Like, Yeah, let's do it. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Yeah, very similar story when my boys were younger. They're teenagers now, nineteen and seventeen, but Yeah. Chris Stockton: Well, so I got I have an eighteen year old, a seventeen year old, and an eight year old is what I have. You know, we started a little bit late with the eight year old 'cause he's a rainbow baby, but Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Yeah, very similar. We went trout fishing when the boys were younger and he caught one one trout and you know I'm a I'm a catch and release guy as often as I can. This thing was probably like yeah big, like maybe five five five, six inches, and he's like, Can we take it back and cook it like you do the big ones? I'm like, dude, this is gonna be half of a nugget. Like, sure, let's do it. Let's do it. Kevin Whitsell: Okay. Chris Stockton: Right. But but you know, it it goes back to that though, is the the happiness we get from just doing that small task for our children out of this whole realm that we work, I think that helps Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Chris Stockton: us see the positive and helps us eliminate a lot of the bad that we see from doing what we do. And I think that's a good outlet as well. It's just small things like that. You know, spending time with your kids fishing, you know, heck I I'd love to ride my four wheeler until my dog ate my tire, but Jason Meinershagen: Mm. Chris Stockton: As he's as as Kevin said, he's not he's not aggressive, he just likes attacking random things. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Yeah. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: So Jason, I'll let you go into jump into section four if you haven't already. Jason Meinershagen: We kinda already did. I think where are we at? well no, let's talk about so briefly you talked about Kevin Whitsell: Mm-hmm. Jason Meinershagen: Chris, you mentioned earlier in in one of your answers you talked about EAP. personally, I don't know I've never heard one single success story come out of EAP. I I just haven't. And I'm I'm sure they exist and it serves a purpose. I'm sure it's I'm sure there are people out there that are benefiting from it. Kudos I want to hear your story because I hear all the negative. I don't ever hear the positive. so talk to me about your experiences, either personal experiences or what you're kind of learning through your podcast and through your through your platforms, about the differences between genuine peer support and that corporate check the box program. Chris Stockton: Yeah, as you pretty much said, I've never heard any really good outcomes from EAPs. I think that is just that corporate, hey, let's have this so we're covered. and the peer support I think has a greater benefit. because if you, me and Kevin were talking like we are now, but we're doing say a debrief or a quick, you know, guidance or or just a a BS session really in the end. about your traumas. You know, would you and this is how I feel. And it's been proven psychologically, it's been proven by a therapist. But we will open up to our own more than we will to somebody who Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Chris Stockton: has never been in our field. and a lot of those EAP programs, they're just run by people on the phone. They're not they've never seen what we see. They've never done what we've done. And it it's inter Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, there's a lot of psychology around that. This it's you see the same thing in combat war veterans. It's it's the it's the trench syndrome. I don't know if that's the actual name. I just made it up. that's to me, that's yeah, I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna coin it. Like that's it. It's it's it's the Chris Stockton: Yeah. Nah. I like it. I like that term. Kevin Whitsell: That's that's funny, yeah. Trademark that. Jason Meinershagen: trench syndrome. But it's if if if you're not in the trenches with me, then I'm not gonna share. Like the just there's just something about I'm I'm more connected on that. Like I'll I'll sit there and yeah, with the guys that are on my crew. Or the guys that I'm really close with at the firehouse or even guys I'm not even close with. I know that we can sit there and have this type of hard conversation because they've seen what I do. Or they've been a part of it, or they're they're in the trenches with me, right? So, yeah. Chris Stockton: Well it like like I said earlier, you know, the the incident I had with the buddy that killed himself offshore, excuse me. they called a therapist and this was roughly around Christmas time, so they had slim pickings is what I I'd like to call it. so they got everybody in, everyone's met with the therapist individually over a screen and as soon as they call me in, I'm talking to the therapist and she starts venting to me about her problems. I'm like, Whoa, hold on, lady This is not how this is Kevin Whitsell: Ha ha. Chris Stockton: supposed to go. I was like, you're supposed to be my therapist right now. She's like, yeah, but you you know, you've dealt with all this other stuff. I'm like, okay, that's not how this works. So Kevin Whitsell: No. Chris Stockton: that was a failed EAP attempt in my opinion. You know, and that I I Kevin Whitsell: Yes. Chris Stockton: don't know how many times that actually happens, but I'm sure I'm not the first and I'm not gonna be the last. You know. Jason Meinershagen: Mm. Chris Stockton: And it makes me wonder and think that how many times Do we as first responders go see therapists? And they're trying their best to help us, but they honestly have no clue on what they need to do to help us or how to help us. You know, they fall back to their textbooks. Kevin

Whitsell: That's exactly right. Chris Stockton: And it it's like you said, Jason, your your your trench syndrome. It it falls back to that is do they see it as I was never in the trenches with them? I can't help them, but I'm gonna do my best that I can. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, and to that point, like dude, my therapist didn't do what I do. He he was never a first responder. He was in the he was in the military, he was in the navy. I don't even remember I don't remember if he was a com like served in combat or not. Didn't matter. but he he he he knows a little bit of that. But the reality is as a as a therapist, he was trained in trauma. So he's a trauma informed therapist. and he was able to approach it of from the from the mindset and the the perspective of I wasn't in your trench. I I know what trauma looks like and I know how to help you out. Right. And that's some therapists will will will nail that at to a a hundred percent. And we've had we've had therapists and counselors and c clinicians on here before that will so I'll take a opportunity here to just pause and and remind our viewers what they've s what they've all, in their own words, said over the past year or so is that it Not every therapist is right for every person. Right? You you go try it on and you say, hey, I want to give this a whirl. let's let's and and that you don't you don't you're not able to build a rapport with that therapist or that clinician. then you move on to the next one and you keep moving down the line until you find one that that clicks and and that you have rapport with that is checking all your boxes, whatever that looks like. So And if that starts with the EAP, for some for some that's great. For the for the people that need to start with EAP, it serves a purpose. It serves, I believe, a different purpose than what we're on the front line needing. but it can be a good starting point, right? It can be a good like, hey, I need referrals to somebody that can help me. Where can you send me? Kevin Whitsell: I was just about to say that. That's a that's a referral clinic is what that is. Chris Stockton: Right. So I don't know if a lot of people know it or not, but that's what nine eighty eight was actually originally made for is to help get referrals to proper sources. Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris Stockton: God forbid you're in a crisis and you do call them and they can't help you always call nine one one, you know. But the the thing that stuck up with me on the nine eight eight hotline is my daughter was feeling that way at one point and she didn't know that you could text him. Of course I didn't know you could text him either. So you're literally just having a text conversation with these people so they don't have any idea who you are or nothing about you and you're completely anonymous. Kevin Whitsell: Yep. Yep. Chris Stockton: That to me is one of the best ways that if someone needed to reach out, they could do. Because it does truly anan anonymise you, it does make it to where they can't really hold it against you at your work. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Chris Stockton: And a lot of EAPs do the same way. You know, it is a hundred percent confidential. So if you need help, that's my thing, is always reach out. Even if you have a s an inkling like, hey, I I think I may need to reach therapist, I may need to reach out to the psychiatrist, whatever, do it. You're not going to Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Chris Stockton: be reprimanded for trying to seek help in the end for something that causes so much pain in yourself. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, you're exactly right. Well, I think that I'm gonna skip a little bit of this 'cause I think we've hit a lot of these topics. and we're we're kinda to where I mean, you know, being in the podcast world, somewhere between forty five minutes and an hour is where you start to see this huge like pow. Chris Stockton: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, yeah, on the chart. So I don't wanna go too far over and Jason and I have the chronic ability to talk for two Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: hours to a guest. I mean we'll We can just go on and on. Chris Stockton: Yeah, I love it. Jason Meinershagen: It is a problem. It is a problem. We need somebody to rein this in. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Yeah. so Chris Stockton: I love it. Kevin Whitsell: much so much so that one of our co-hosts, I think it was last week, was just like, dude, I got to go. I I just I got to bounce. And we're like, okay, cool. And we just kept right on trucking. Yeah. Jason Meinershagen: kept going. Like another like another fifteen minutes. Kevin Whitsell: Like fifteen, thirty minutes. so yeah, we have Chris Stockton: That's awesome though. Kevin Whitsell: a We have a problem, but my favorite part of the show is when a guest gets to tell us where they can listen, where they can find you. So give us that shameless plug that you're gonna you know, sell yourself. Give us the pitch. Chris Stockton: I don't have a very good pitch, but I am on Spotify, iHeartRadio, Apple Music or Apple Podcasts. That's not music no more. Apple Podcast. I I've on almost every service out there as dispatch dysfunctional. Use the ampersand. it's not the words and but yeah, and and and always reach out. I got I'm on Facebook, I'm on YouTube. if you have questions, if you need something to some kind of resource that anybody that you might think I might have, I will try to find it and I will get it to you if you all else fails. Hell, just reach out to me if all else if all else, message me on Facebook so we can have a chat. I I don't care. my website, I'm it's on my phone as well. So if someone goes to the critical dash run dot com and hits contact me, I am lit it will literally go straight to my phone. Kevin Whitsell: That's awesome. That is awesome. Well, Jason, it's time for your favorite question of the show. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, Chris, just this one's for you. What do you have any questions for us? Chris

Stockton: No, not really. only question I got for you is could I get a link for this when y'all get done editing it? Jason Meinershagen: Absolutely. Kevin Whitsell: absolutely. Jason Meinershagen: Absolutely. Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. I will get it over to you as as soon as I'm done. It usually takes me we we stay so the cool thing about what we do I think is that we've been very blessed to have lots of guests say yes. So we stay five to six weeks ahead of schedule all the time. Which come in pretty handy 'cause, you know, I just recently went through an illness and so it came in handy that I was not here to do the editing for a little bit and it took it took a while for everybody to have to kind of step in and feel fill the shoes of all the things. and luckily by then I was at least able to edit. I just wasn't comfortable being on on screen yet and talking and I was just just not a good time. But thankfully, you know, all that's passed, but it it always helped has helped us to be so far ahead. And we stayed that way for since we started. We released the first four episodes before, you know, August first last year we released the first four as a bunch. And then we stayed three or four ahead the whole time. So we've we've done well. Guys, as you know every week, you can find us on all the places, all the social medias, but really where we started to steer people is the silentwarwithin.com. You can reach out to any of us on that platform. Our information is all there. you can find out where we stream. Obviously, we are a nonprofit organization now. Jason with Five Arrows Forge is our founding sponsor. You heard the promo before the show actually kicked off, before the interview actually kicked off, but we want to say thank you to them. they do some amazing work. Jason does some amazing work as a coach. You guys have really gotta tap into that. having him as a friend is also having him as a mentor because he's given me some free coaching advice numerous times throughout Jason Meinershagen: I always try to ask first, like, hey, are you open for a coaching moment? 'Cause some people will be like, Yeah, Kevin Whitsell: always. Jason Meinershagen: well you are always but I have had people be like, Yeah, no. I'm like, Okay, Chris Stockton: Yeah. Jason Meinershagen: I'll I'll I'll bite my tugs. You s stay in your own pool of crap. whatever, man. Whatever makes you happy. Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. I don't Yeah, yeah. No, I love it. He's he's so good. He's got that note from dad thing down and I love that because it and that's why his episode was my favorite, where I tell people to start when they ask, Well, where should I start? You got 60 something episodes, and I'm like, Yeah, start with the note from dad, because that turned from two responders sitting there talking about responder stuff to two dads sitting there talking about dad stuff. Chris Stockton: Yeah. Yep. Jason Meinershagen: My second passion. Kevin Whitsell: and and that was yeah, and that was my favorite. That was my favorite. we did a year episode and that was the question they asked me. and nobody had mentioned his episode. Poor Jason was just left out to dry. And I was like, guys, you're missing the best one. but he does, he's our founding sponsor and he does a fantastic job at what he does and you need to link up with him. his website's always in our show notes. You'll see his always add it post-production, but there's there's always the five arrows forged down here in the bottom left. I had to look at my hands because I can't tell my left from my right. I'm a real Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: intelligent guy, I promise you, I'm educated beyond beyond measure. I just don't act like it. you Chris Stockton: yeah, I got. Kevin Whitsell: know, yeah, his logo is always down there in the bottom left-hand corner. for every episode moving forward. We love having him on our team as well as being a partner of ours. we just recently had a fantastic conference. you guys showed up and showed out and we are extremely grateful for all of that. But go to a silent war within dot com you can find all of my stuff, all of Jason's stuff. I write for Dark Horse Press, another one of our partners there that we do some crime with apparently. which is funny because they're primarily a crime publication. But so go check all those things out. Chris Stockton: That's full. Kevin Whitsell: Jason is awesome. Chris, thank you for joining us today. We really Jason Meinershagen: Thank you, Chris. Kevin Whitsell: did have a good time, yeah. Chris Stockton: I I appreciate it, man. I I'd love to be back on again sooner or later. Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. We're eventually gonna run out of people, so you'll be back. Chris Stockton: yeah, no, I I I'm actually at that wall right now and it it's kind of killing me. I'm like I've had five guests in the past week, I'm like crap that just like hey I'm sick, I can't make it. Like, okay, cool, reschedule. And it's like okay, I was hoping Kevin Whitsell: Yeah, absolutely. Chris Stockton: to have numerous guests, but now I don't have any. I gotta figure something out. So it's probably Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, shoot shoot me an email when we're down there card or connect with me offline, man. I'll come I I'll I'll I'll Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Yeah. Jason Meinershagen: I'll come be a guest if you'll have me. Chris Stockton: always. Always. Always. I I'd love to subdue all one. I'd I'd love to have a Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. S same same same for me. Chris Stockton: I'd yeah, I'd love to have a a a collab on mine in all in the end. That'd be awesome. Kevin Whitsell: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. No, we we love doing that. We did that with JP, the passionate leader. and Chris Stockton: Cool. Kevin Whitsell: it was it was great. It turned out great. So although he did leave my six year old in and me getting on to him and I sound like the mad dad in that one. Not really, I was just Stern, but Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Chris Stockton: Yeah. Kevin Whitsell: I was like J P dude. Jason Meinershagen: He broke me down. I got too vulnerable with him, man. I shared some stuff that I was like I literally reached out to him afterwards. I'm like, Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Jason Meinershagen: dude, can we edit some of that stuff out? I'm like I don't I don't know if I want that all public, but it's it's all good. It worked out Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Chris Stockton: Well see and that that's where I that's where Jason Meinershagen: well. Chris Stockton: that's like a mine is just so everyone if anyone ever wants to be a guest on mine, I'm open to guest. so just go to critical dash around dot com or again Facebook page, just basically dysfunctional. but a lot of the times most of mine are unedited unless it is requested for editing. because I like the the r the whole feeling that we have right now. You know, just just the three of us be able to talk to openly, Kevin Whitsell: Yeah. Chris Stockton: communicate. And I I have Kevin Whitsell: Rip. Chris Stockton: a feeling that editing takes that away a lot of time. Kevin Whitsell: It does. And I I think you have to be very from a from one podcaster to another, I think you have to be very selective about what you edit. So there's those real moments you don't want to edit. there's a certain number of uhs and ums and those filler words that you you naturally have to leave in because it makes makes the conversation flow. Some of our first episodes are so choppy feeling because we edited all those out trying to be perfect. And and you really see it in the video quality, the sound quality, like all of it's just shot. and now we've started leaving a lot of that stuff in because it does give the actual firehouse table feel that we want to go for. this is supposed to be that that tailboard debrief kind of feeling where we're sitting here just talking. But Chris, thank you again. as we Chris Stockton: Yes. Kevin Whitsell: say every week, be safe, take care of your mind, and we'll talk soon. Bye everybody. Chris Stockton: Yes. Appreciate it, guys.