บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Roger Jansen, PhD - CEO, Exponential Health | Rethinking Healthcare and Putting People First

that what inspired you to become a psychologist? 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:24.159 So, my area, I actually was in an MD PhD program and really gravitated towards the research side and really want to take a look at how the brain operates and how can the question that really got me was how can people put people into burning ovens and kill them? 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:27.199 And how can somebody run into a burning building and save someone? 00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:30.879 And our species is really unique in that we do both. 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:34.879 And it always came back to me that has to be somewhere in the brain. 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:43.280 And so really focusing on how the brain operates, processes information, functions from a neurochemical, anatomical perspective. 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:49.840 And I would say that every time we learn something, we learn a little of something that's going to be a long journey. 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:52.400 So it's fun to be involved in the research side of it. 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:55.520 So I think that's why I kind of gravitated in that direction. 00:02:55.840 --> 00:02:58.080 And is that what Exponential Health does? 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:00.400 Are they like a contract research organization? 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:01.680 Are you looking for molecules? 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:04.960 No, we're a medical clinic, so we see patients. 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:07.759 We really serve as an alternative health system for employers. 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:16.800 So we do a lot of direct contracting with employers so they don't have to go through the existing insurance system or the existing rates with other health systems. 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:21.199 So we contract at about 125% of Medicare rates. 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:29.840 And so we provide, let's say, I'm making this up, a knee surgery would cost you $50,000 based upon your traditional employer-sponsored insurance. 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:35.680 And because they're charging anywhere from 260 to 340% of Medicare, we charge about 125%. 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:39.439 So you're probably going to save 60% on that surgery. 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:40.240 Interesting. 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:43.759 So uh essentially you're working with self-insurance programs? 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:46.639 Working with a lot of self-insured employers, correctly. 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:46.800 Yeah. 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:47.520 No kidding. 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:48.800 So captives. 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:51.199 Yes, that would be one. 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:54.000 I mean, it depends on what way you're using that term. 00:03:54.000 --> 00:04:05.680 Insurance captives a little bit different, but in some ways, we provide the insurance the back end of the health care from the TPA to the network, but we don't actually have a wrap. 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:09.759 We have wraps for things that you might need that we don't have, like emergency rooms and those things. 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:10.879 No

kidding. 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:11.840 Wow, that's an interesting model. 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:13.439 Candidly, I'd never heard of it. 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:14.319 That's kind of great. 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:19.680 I've I am very familiar with sort of the captive and self-insurance model that's worked before. 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:33.519 Built that up in one of my previous organizations, as well as part of one of the organizations I work with today, Horizon Pharmacy, who works to provide pharmacy services cheaper to captives here in Rhode Island, which is where I'm located. 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:35.839 Yeah, we have our own pharmacy as well. 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:46.720 And we have contracts with 51 independent groups from imaging to surgery to everything, all to try to actually do something crazy, which is actually take the insanity out of healthcare. 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:52.240 And it could be done, but too many people are making too much money off of it and it's harming too many folks. 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:54.000 So it's a mission for us. 00:04:54.000 --> 00:05:06.079 We we just don't think it's right that people have to cut pills or not get procedures done in the quote unquote wealthiest world or country in the world, and yet we can't take care of people with basic problems. 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:09.600 So we're trying to change that and we're making progress. 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:10.720 Wow, that's great. 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:14.560 And are you just in Michigan or is it uh exponential out? 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:16.319 We have offices in Michigan. 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:28.160 We'll probably begin to expand throughout the Midwest soon, but we're a unique model, and a lot of HR folks just like to hit the easy button and go with the traditional insurance companies. 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:35.920 So getting them to understand how our model works takes a little bit of time and takes leadership from an organization that wants to make change. 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:43.680 A lot of family-owned businesses love to engage with us because every dollar they spend on healthcare unnecessarily is a dollar not going back to their family. 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:47.439 So we we're very cognizant of costs are out of control. 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:56.879 You've got health systems putting up $1.7 billion towers in our community, yet we can't seem to allow people to get the care they need at an affordable rate. 00:05:57.199 --> 00:05:57.839 No kidding. 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:00.480 And are you organized as a corporation or $501? 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:02.800 We're a corporation. 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:03.519 Okay. 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:06.959 Yeah, we do have a 501c3 attached to us. 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:14.720 So we provide a lot of ketamine and stelic ganglion block treatments to people with PTSD, depression, and anxiety. 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:19.279 And a lot of those folks are often not able to work, and so they can't afford it. 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:23.360 So we have a side of the house that helps cover that cost. 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:24.319 No kidding. 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:28.240 So you're also helping the underinsured or uninsured as well. 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:30.319 Wow, Roger, what an amazing model. 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:38.240 Yeah, well, I was in the big systems for a long time, and they get caught up in thinking you're doing the right thing and you're gonna have coordinated, integrated care. 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:45.120 And what it really becomes down to is the consolidation of the health systems has really hurt communities. 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:56.639 And prices continue to go up and quality and experience and access continues to go down, despite all their marketing dollars, despite all the effort they put in to host events and fundraisers. 00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:02.800 They pay their executives tens of millions of dollars to really not produce a product that's working for the communities that they're in. 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:04.240 And it just doesn't seem right. 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:11.120 So I'm in my mid to late 50s, and the goal was let's see if we can make a change before we hang it up. 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:15.439 And if we can't, let's start it and see if others can pick it up as we move off the court. 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.399 Wow, that's uh that's really an amazing story, Roger. 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:19.279 Really amazing. 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:29.040 How do you connect that to your initial comment about your passion for research if you're really providing I'm gonna say primary care, but maybe it's not the right phrasing for it? 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:37.839 I'd like to use that research to make sure that we're bringing the best treatment modalities to the patients we serve versus those that are reimbursed by a CPT code. 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:41.360 And so a lot of people perform unnecessary procedures. 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:45.519 You go to an orthopod and they take your blood pressure and your weight and your temperature. 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:46.319 Why do they do that? 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:47.680 So they can charge a wellness code. 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:51.759 It doesn't have anything to do with your sprained ankle, and they're not gonna fix your sprained ankle. 00:07:51.759 --> 00:08:00.160 So I think those are the things that we're really taking a look at is how do we make sure our research doesn't just provide care, provides maybe the U.S. 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:08.959 isn't leading in this space, but maybe what they're doing in Portugal or Switzerland or wherever it may be is showing better outcomes in the way that we approach it. 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:11.920 Let's do the research and make sure that we look at all that data. 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:15.439 And are were you there at the startup of this? 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:16.480 Say that again. 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.120 Were you this there at the startup of

Exponential Health? 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:19.680 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:20.639 I'm one of the founders. 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:20.879 Yeah. 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:21.680 No kidding. 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:22.560 Yeah. 00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:34.320 So, really, one of the questions I was curious to ask you, what was the defining moment for you that made you realize that this is a great way to improve health care from the traditional system that clearly wasn't working? 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:37.600 You've intimated that, but what was that sort of aha moment? 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:39.840 I go back to the values I was raised with. 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:46.080 Like you take care of others, and you don't get into a helping profession without literally wanting to help people. 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:50.159 And if people can't afford what you're trying to help them with, then you can't help. 00:08:50.159 --> 00:09:00.320 And so we've created a system that's unaffordable, yet puts up more administrative roles and IT roles and accounting roles. 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:09.600 And I often would say hospitals are IT companies that employ physicians because there's a lot of people in IT and accounting and that more than there are actually doing the care. 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:19.600 And yet we've got nurses making 60,000, 70,000, 80,000 a year, and the CEOs are making four and a half, five, six million dollars a year who've never seen a patient, never changed a life. 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:21.840 And I think we've got the system upside down. 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:26.080 I often tell people don't go to the Lakers game and in the day to see the bus family. 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:30.559 They went to see Matt Johnson or they went to see Kobe Bryan or Shaquille O'Neal or whoever's there now. 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:35.840 And sometimes we think management's what's important, but it's all about the patient and it's all about the provider. 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:37.840 And we've lost that in healthcare. 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:47.759 And we've made it a corporate entity that operates under the veil of a not-for-profit, all while not giving any money back to the communities that they're in from a tax base. 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:54.879 So there's nothing going to the education system, to the fire departments, to the police departments, to the water and sewage, to the roads. 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:56.639 It's all being held internal. 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:59.200 And we've got to start calling BS on it. 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:03.440 It's just, it's time that we actually start taking care of each other again in this country. 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:05.679 Oh, love that statement. 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:06.720 Absolutely love that. 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:08.879 So clearly, you've built startups. 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:12.639 And right now you're working inside the massive problem of healthcare systems. 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:16.720 Where did you see where mission and money work together well? 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:20.320 And where do you see that they've collided where clearly you're trying to break this? 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:22.000 You know, let's look at the U.S. 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:22.960 economy right now. 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:35.440 If you took all the money we spent in education and all the money we spent in the military, and those are big budgets, and we added those up and we times them by two, you still wouldn't get what we spend in this country on healthcare a year. 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.600 So just let that think sink in. 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:45.120 If you took all the legal profession and added it all up, you would not be able to pay what we pay our health care administrators in this country. 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:47.600 So that's every attorney in every profession. 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:50.399 They still don't make what we're paying our hospital leaders. 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:53.919 So when you say, how do you get money admission to work? 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:55.679 There is a ton of money out there. 00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:59.279 It just is being allocated poorly or improperly. 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:04.480 And so it's really about the real allocation of funds to ensure that people can still make a good living. 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:14.960 But should we really pay a hospital CEO who was really the equivalent of a superintendent back in the 80s and 90s, now the corporate equivalent of running PepsiCo? 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:16.159 I don't think so. 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:18.480 And part of that comes back to what are your values? 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:20.639 And am I really worth $6 million a year? 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:21.840 Am I is what I'm doing. 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:23.759 And you can begin to justify that. 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:29.440 But at the end of the day, are you making care more affordable, more accessible, better outcomes? 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:32.399 Are you taking care of those who need it the most? 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:34.480 And I think the answer would have to be no. 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:45.679 And when you say you're giving all this charity care back, you're basing those prices off your charge master, which is just a fictitious number you can make up and you can call it anything you want, and then say we gave 50 million in free care. 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:49.279 So again, I think this is about what is the passion? 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:51.840 Passion is just about helping people. 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:53.360 How do we do that better? 00:11:53.360 --> 00:12:01.919 If everyone walked into every job they had and said, look, it's not always about me, it's about what I can do to help others, we probably wouldn't be sitting where we are today. 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:09.440 And that's just not the value set that myself or hopefully my kids and my family have, and certainly wasn't the way I was raised. 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:11.200 Give me a

sense of scale. 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:14.720 How much impact is exponential health having right now? 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:20.720 So, right now, across employers, we take care of about 15,000 independent lives. 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:24.720 So it's small, relatively speaking, but it's making a difference. 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:26.720 But it's still bigger than I expected you to say. 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:29.279 Yeah, so it's making a difference for those 15,000. 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:37.120 Obviously, we want to continue to take care of more and more people, but it's a journey and it's gonna be it'll go on long after I'm gone. 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:46.480 But we are trying to make a model that's scalable throughout the country and replicable that people can say, hey, there's a better way of delivering healthcare than the way we're getting it today. 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:49.919 And you know, I know you spoke about technology a little while ago. 00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:58.240 Is there things about how you're utilizing technology when you're rethinking this model now that maybe traditional healthcare really hasn't been looking at? 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:01.120 I mean, technology is a really broad term. 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:08.159 So what I guess I would say is looking at treatments and what really is effective versus what isn't. 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:17.279 Like there are certain procedures that were approved in the 80s and make the hospitals a lot of money because they're inpatient that could be done completely differently now on an outpatient basis that just aren't done. 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.799 There's things like that we're trying to utilize and make sure that we're bringing in. 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:42.639 There's treatments for effective and mood disorders, whether it's PTSD or depression or anxiety or what it may be, that insurance companies don't reimburse for, but we're giving meds that were popularized in the 70s and 80s still today, with a little bit of a twist on them that have very little effect, but cause people to lose their libido, gain weight, be more blunt affect, and then we keep them on them forever. 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:45.600 And those don't pretend the best outcomes. 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:50.960 So it's those types of things when I mean technology and that we're really looking at from an AI perspective. 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.480 We're no different probably than anybody else out there from we're not a tech shop. 00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:55.360 Got it. 00:13:55.360 --> 00:14:00.000 But really, you're trying to look at effective clinical ROI, really. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:01.200 That's what I'm hearing you say. 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.440 Yeah, I mean, here's a crazy idea, right? 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:06.080 Let's do the stuff that actually works, doesn't cost more. 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:11.039 And so we don't charge per procedure, we charge a flat monthly rate for our services. 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.440 And you can come and see us as often as you want. 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:14.480 There's no additional charges. 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:17.840 You need a pap smear and physical and mole remove, whatever it may be. 00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:19.039 You don't get charged for that. 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:20.399 There's no additional codes. 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.559 It's literally like buying every other product. 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:27.360 When I go to the gas station, I don't like the prices of the pump right now, but at least I know what the price is. 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.519 When you get a knee surgery, you have no clue. 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:34.879 And then you get a bill 12 months later for the surgery that was done 12 months earlier, and you don't even know what half of it's for. 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:38.480 And the system's so complex to navigate, people just give up. 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:40.000 They just say, I'll just pay it. 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:42.240 Is all of the doctors in-house? 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:45.840 Is everybody sort of with you in there, or are you contracting out? 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:48.000 So we don't employ all of our physicians. 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:50.480 We have 51 independent groups that we work with. 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:54.320 They've agreed to kind of work under these terms and conditions as well with our network. 00:14:54.559 --> 00:15:01.919 So is there anything that you had to help them sort of unlearn about what they're used to because this is sound so fundamentally different? 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:06.159 No, they still do the traditional models, but they still work with us as well. 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:07.759 So they kind of have a hybrid. 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:09.120 But yeah, they've been great. 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:19.759 And again, not everybody wants to join because if I can just my first training, I remember my first department of neurology meeting, I raised my hand and I said, So if I find more wrong with patients, we can charge them more. 00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:24.720 And somebody said, Well, yeah, I'm like, well, you know how easy it is to find something wrong or we should test for? 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:26.720 I mean, that can be done all day. 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:29.679 And that's the model we're operating in, right? 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:32.879 Hey, I should do a stent because I bought a new cottage. 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:34.960 And people want to say, Oh, people don't do that. 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:36.240 No, people do that. 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:45.440 And when you look at the amount of people employed by healthcare, the same issues and ills you have in the general society are the same ills and issues you have in healthcare. 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:53.200 And putting people on a pedestal because they have the term doctor or this or that doesn't change their moral or ethical guidelines. 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:57.360 And it really is a shame that we've let

this get out of control. 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.879 So a lot of people can make a lot of money off the very few. 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:07.679 Boy, as a nonprofit professional, my entire career, frankly, that just resonates with my heart so much. 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:09.120 That's fantastic to hear. 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:22.559 So I was curious, given that you've you've brought this organization from idea to something, clearly, 15,000 people of care, and you're also a psychologist and a clinician, uh I'm because of course that means you're an expert on human behavior. 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:24.240 What about human behavior? 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:32.480 It sort of taught you about leadership and growing this organization that maybe business school would never have shown you because that's what my expertise is. 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:34.240 I'm a businessman by grade. 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:39.519 Yeah, I mean, I think for me it comes down to three things people, place, and purpose. 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:42.559 If you don't get the right people, game over. 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:47.519 You have the best playbook around, but you're not going to execute the plays that you want to execute. 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:58.639 Place people who've got and want to be associated with coming to work every day and feel like they're motivated to be a part of it, which is driven by the purpose that they have. 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:09.119 And so everything that you look at on an Excel spreadsheet, your eBid on margins, what's your gross profit, what's your cost of goods, all these things, those are important 100%. 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:14.799 But the intangibles, the culture, the belief system, do we get along? 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:16.319 Are there power struggles? 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:19.039 Do we have the ability to question authority? 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:20.480 Are those things in play? 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:26.079 Because if those aren't present, then you're gonna probably have an organization that doesn't operate and function really well. 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:30.799 And so when I look at leading an organization, there's two things that I need people to be a part of. 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:32.079 Do you buy into the vision? 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:33.599 Do you believe in what we're doing? 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:39.920 Because if you don't believe in where we're going, then you're not gonna be any good to me and the organization are getting to where we need to get. 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:41.680 So you need to buy into that. 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:47.519 And then the second thing is there's something more important than your own success. 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:56.720 And if you don't believe there's something more important than your own personal success, then it's gonna be difficult to be the best provider you can be because that patient should be. 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:00.559 It's gonna be difficult to take care of employers because their bottom line should be. 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.039 And we just need to think differently about things. 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:04.640 And it's not rocket science. 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:06.160 I've got a presentation I put together. 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:18.400 It's not rocket science because it comes back to actually just doing the right things the right way and having intent that's not always playing some game and some angle. 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:20.720 Healthcare's got an angle on everything. 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:23.440 These executives, and I was a part of those teams, right? 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:27.039 I was a C-suite member at one of the largest health systems in the country. 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:38.079 And just the way that you think about that is warped when you're inside of it because you are caught up in the culture that you're a part of there. 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:47.119 But when you step out and actually talk to the businesses and talk to the employees and talk to the people who can't afford it, you really have meaningful conversations. 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:49.519 You're like, man, we're doing this the wrong way. 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:51.359 This is actually not helping the community. 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:56.559 If we really wanted to help the community as much as we could, we shouldn't put a $1.7 billion up. 00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:16.640 We should invest $400 million of that in healthy food for the community in perpetuity, another million or billion dollars of that into affordable housing for the community, and then take another $300 million and put it in the best mental health network you could ever find so we can stave off stress, all these things, and take that $1.7 billion and get rid of that tower, right? 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:18.240 But that's not the way we think. 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:22.319 We think about more butts and beds and more codes we could build. 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:31.680 So who was the mentor or leader that really made you think about this trust culture and clearly taking on a difficult challenge like this? 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:33.920 Tell me who this person that inspired you to be so. 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:36.000 I mean, I don't think there's any one individual. 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.880 Even people I've worked with in the health system have a ton of respect for. 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:47.119 My former boss and CEO, Rick Brian, was a great person and probably affected me and how he thought about healthcare in a lot of different ways. 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:59.519 Dick Hayworth, who owns Hayworth Manufacturing Furniture Company, his qualities, his interpersonal demeanor, his focus on family-owned and taking care of his people was a tremendous impact on me. 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:02.480 And then I go back to the biggest leader of my life is my mother. 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:06.799 And just, hey, remember you're not here for yourself, kid. 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:10.480 Like there's other

people around, you got to think about them and take care of them. 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:14.720 And I don't care how old you are, you want to make sure you're doing right by those lessons you learned as a kid. 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:16.480 Oh, yeah, absolutely. 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:18.640 My dad's always in the back of my mind. 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:20.559 As I said to you before, we were online here. 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:22.319 He passed away a few years ago. 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:25.279 When I asked him at the time, what do you want to be remembered by? 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:32.559 If there are three words you want to be thought of, and without even a snap of a second, he said, I just want to be remembered for being a good man. 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:33.920 Three simple words. 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:34.960 A good man. 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:35.839 Yeah. 00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:38.400 I mean, I watched people have a lot. 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:48.480 And I I grew up with limited means, and I think the best times of my life, outside of my kids and my wife and those things, they're when I didn't have anything. 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:50.720 Um and didn't know I didn't have anything. 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:51.839 And I was okay with it. 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:53.279 And I was okay with it. 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:54.720 You know, it comes back. 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:59.759 You give me a tennis court, a basketball court, some people to hang out with, I'm a pretty happy guy. 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:02.079 That's good to hear. 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:07.359 Yeah, I heard the basketball reference, and we talked about tennis earlier, so clearly those are passions for you. 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:11.200 So in our careers, we all have difficult seasons as well. 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:20.079 So I was also curious to ask what sort of challenge did you run into that really changed you personally or made you a different leader after that experience? 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:21.759 That's a really good question. 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:25.039 I think I lost a team member to suicide. 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:26.079 Oh, wow. 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:30.240 And they weren't a direct report, they were one step removed. 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:36.240 And I'll never forget the day I was informed that they had taken their life. 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:46.319 And it reminded me significantly of the importance we have of understanding people for who they are and not just the title that we have inside an organization. 00:21:46.319 --> 00:22:01.440 And that everybody is somebody else's daughter and mother and sister and best friend, and they're not just the marketing director or the HR leader or whatever it may be, and that we have to take the Whole person to account at work. 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.880 And when people say it's just business, I call it's just bullshit. 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:10.960 If you can separate being a person and being just in business, we call that disorder schizophrenia. 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.400 And so you're living two distinct lives and they're not real. 00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:15.920 We bring the whole person to work. 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:21.680 And I think that was a moment that made me realize we need to pay better attention to how people are doing. 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:31.680 And we got to make sure that we're thinking about their mental health and their physical well-being, more than just did they get the project and excel back to me and the PowerPoint templates ready to go. 00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:36.480 And so I think that's affected my worldview of how we think about what does it mean to take time. 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:39.759 So we have an unlimited time off mantra at our place. 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:54.319 We provide our services to our employees and their families at discounted rate 50% off to make sure that if they're having a mental health issue or a back pain or they need some type of med or they need some type of injection of some sort, that we can provide that. 00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:56.480 And we extend that pretty deeply. 00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:06.720 So I think unfortunately it was a pretty sad case of losing a team member that I think really shaped and reset because I'm a pretty hard-driving competitive person. 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:11.519 And you sometimes need a reminder that you got to pause. 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:17.920 You can't hit the rewind button, you can't hit the fast forward, but you can pause and reflect and can we do these things differently? 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:19.839 What a powerful story, Roger. 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:21.680 I mean, first my condolences. 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:24.640 Losing anybody in your sphere is always challenging. 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:32.160 But I think you've taken away an excellent lesson that your colleagues at Exponential Health and all those around you must be greatly benefiting from. 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:36.880 What a great challenging story, but a good outcome to come from it. 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:38.480 What a great way to think about it. 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:45.920 When I'm orienting our organization, I typically try to make sure people are I call it Coster Incorporated. 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.799 I don't mind if people are growing within our organization. 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:49.599 That's great. 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:55.279 I don't mind with people are growing through our organization if they have another great place to go through. 00:23:55.279 --> 00:24:02.400 Welcome when they come in, welcome them and respect them when they leave and all those things, because it is the whole person. 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:19.440 Frankly, it's what drew me to nonprofits away back when I could have probably worked for Fidelity and had some large house and a home, but I was far more interested in doing excellent work for people, uh, you know, and making the world a better place because I was part of it.

00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:20.400 100%. 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:21.359 100%. 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:30.880 Yeah, and kind of related to that, I'd say the other side is just looking at the brain and knowing that we're all told from a very young age that we're supposed to achieve and achieve. 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:37.599 And the fruit of those achievements, the way we keep scores are bank accounts, and those bank accounts tell you what your worth is. 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:51.039 And I think working around a lot of people who are not just millionaires, but billionaires, and understanding their lives and understanding there is a plateau that your brain can reach in happiness, right? 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:51.920 There just is. 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:56.400 You can't be in a manic state 24-7 and actually be healthy. 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:05.039 So we all have levels and baselines of how happy we can get and how sad we can get, and just recognizing that money is not the answer. 00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:06.880 And it's all about relationships. 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:14.240 And the relationships we try to cultivate here is taking care of people and being transparent with people about what we can and cannot do. 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:25.440 And I think you come from, you know, in our field, we see a lot of pain, physical, psychological, emotional, economical, a lot of different forms of pain. 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:38.240 And when you realize everyone's going through something, doesn't matter who you are and what your name is, we can all begin to be a little bit more empathetic and helpful because we all need, I mean, life's hard. 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:40.559 It doesn't matter who you are, life is hard. 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:43.920 And we need outreach and support more than what we often get. 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:48.880 So that's part of what we try to extend here to our team members and to our patients. 00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:53.200 A friend told me a phrase a long time ago that everybody's carrying an invisible backpack. 00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:54.559 You don't know what's in it. 00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:55.680 Yep, 100%. 00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:56.480 Yeah. 00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:04.960 And we all think Facebook or fake book, as we should maybe call it, is what people are really going through, but it's just not. 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:06.240 It's not real. 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:09.119 Oh, so powerful, Roger. 00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:20.720 I commend your experience in pivoting those things and really not only making an impactful change in the ecosystem of healthcare and how it's provided, but how it's provided even to your team. 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:24.799 Because that kind of behavior is really worth the work. 00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:32.240 That's when you know you're making a real impact to your community, to your patients, and to your colleagues. 00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:33.839 I can't commend you enough. 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.039 That's fantastic. 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:36.880 It's inspirational, I should say. 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:37.680 Thank you. 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.480 Yeah, we're trying. 00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:41.359 I mean, we're certainly not perfect, but we try. 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:46.640 And I look at myself 15 years ago, and I was probably that high charging. 00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:49.279 Let's get it done, let's own everything and do everything. 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:54.160 And everyone needs perspective, and sometimes they get that different ways at different times. 00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:57.680 So, and I think our outlook, as I say, it can be in the ocean. 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:03.599 If you're just one or two degrees off, you're going to be end up in a very different destination than the ship was going that other one or two degrees. 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:17.839 And I think that's where we've differed from our colleagues, if you will, in the healthcare space, is that we believe probably in a lot of the same things, but there is a few degrees of separation on some really important things that make us appear very different. 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:21.279 Well, Roger, that it's a powerful way to end our time together. 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:24.559 I thank you so much for joining our podcast today. 00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:26.240 Our guest today has been Dr. 00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:32.400 Roger Jansen, who is leading, I think, an amazing organization as a CEO of Exponential Health. 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.720 Thank you so much for joining us here, worth the work. 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:36.480 Thank you very much for having me. 00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:37.359 Appreciate the time. 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:38.240 Excellent.