บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ 356 - Great Facilitation Requires Professional Risk with Rob Evans

put the company on the map in Europe. 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:04.240 And from that, we were able to build out a great company. 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:19.519 So I don't know that it was strictly unprofessional, but the the light-heartedness is certainly not what you would expect from a professional interview with engineers, with German engineers. 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:22.399 And I would be What have I got to lose? 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:23.680 What have I got to lose? 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:27.439 Yeah, I would be curious to to learn more about that. 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:33.519 Um, how conscious you were of the did you take a conscious risk? 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:36.079 Were you aware of the lightheartedness? 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:36.879 Oh, yeah. 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:40.000 Uh, that's it's hard for me not to be lighthearted. 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:44.079 So that is the risk you get when you invite me in there. 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:45.680 So is it risky? 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:48.079 Uh yeah. 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:50.720 I mean, human humor doesn't always work. 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:56.720 And cross-cultural humor has more of a chance of failing than otherwise. 00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:00.000 What makes it less of a risk for me? 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:01.680 So maybe it's not a risk. 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:03.680 Maybe we need to find something scarier. 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:10.800 But what makes it less of a risk for me is uh uh warmth and heart. 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:14.160 Now that alone is unprofessional. 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:21.360 Um, to come now exactly as in the as the uh English saying goes, with your heart on your sleeve. 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:31.519 But to be willing to be warmly humorous rather than caustically or sarcastically uh humorous, I think is more of a risk. 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:33.920 Sarcasm is safe. 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:35.040 Yeah. 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:36.959 Let's make fun of that guy over there. 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:37.839 Oh, okay. 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:40.959 But then when is it my turn for you to make fun of me when I'm over there? 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.600 That's the downside to it. 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:46.480 And and warm humor is just warm humor. 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:48.879 You know, like our conversation. 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:52.079 Do they know we have conversations before this starts? 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:55.120 Which probably I'm gonna like you can let them know. 00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:58.319 I'm gonna br I'm gonna break the third wall here and let them know. 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:00.639 We had a conversation before we start. 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:09.920 And uh the idea of warmth and heart, I really think is is the essence of the human. 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:19.439 So if if if unprofessional is roughly defined at being more human than otherwise in a professional setting, I just made that up. 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:22.399 But that sounds like it's what you're talking about. 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:24.879 Are there risks in that? 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:25.600 Totally. 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:26.560 Absolutely. 00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:32.720 I mean, because then if it doesn't work or you're rejected, it can land a little harder. 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:38.240 A little, a bunch of stuff can bounce off the armor unless you take the armor off. 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:40.639 And it bounces off you. 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:42.639 And that's just a different deal. 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:48.160 So the light-heartedness showing a part of yourself that is truly you. 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:48.560 Yeah. 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:54.560 And then the rejection is the rejection of you and not the rejection of a professional version of yourself. 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:56.959 It's but it's not the little the hand in the puppet. 00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:02.560 It's not the little puppet version that I that I uh would otherwise uh, you know. 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:02.879 Yeah. 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:03.920 Here, hello. 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:05.759 I'm here to talk about total quality. 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:18.879 Um the combination of humor and uh being willing to follow my own curiosity seems somehow unprofessional in as it's mostly defined. 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:20.480 What makes you say that? 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:23.439 Professionals have mastered, well, I don't know. 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:25.839 Let's let's let's talk about it. 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:37.919 Professionals think they're on the scene because they've mastered some craft or body of knowledge or a technical skill, and they're getting paid for that. 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:40.480 So, what do you mean you don't know what to do? 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:47.039 I'm paying you to know what to do, uh, is the dilemma many consultants find themselves in. 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:57.600 And the dilemma consulting finds itself in, and why I love what I do as opposed to that, is it's based on curiosity and discovery. 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:06.960 What I do is based on curiosity and discovery, which can be very unnerving for a client when I'm so confident we'll find an answer and I don't know what it is. 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:12.559 I don't know what it is, but I know together we're gonna find that answer. 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:17.279 One, because we have to, and two, because we brought the right people together. 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:23.679 Would you say that to a client that you don't know the answer yet, but you're sure that you'll find it? 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:24.639 Totally. 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:25.840 Oh, absolutely. 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:27.440 I'd say, look, I don't know the answer. 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:31.519 We got to put together a room of people out of which the answer will emerge. 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:39.360 I know how to get us there, and I know how to hold the room together when people want to bail because they don't have an answer yet. 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:41.200

I can do that. 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:44.240 And we'll hold it together long enough to get the answer. 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:46.080 How do clients react to that? 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:47.360 That's a great question. 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:48.960 You should probably ask them. 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:53.279 They usually still hire me, which is probably a good thing. 00:09:53.519 --> 00:10:02.639 They know that I've gotten a lot of people into the promised land through this process, into a promised land better than the one they came there to get. 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:09.840 And I can put my clients to be in touch with clients who will vouch for that. 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:18.720 Along the way, I think when client said to me, Rob, your confidence is excruciating. 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:30.960 And uh, I think by that they meant they were semi-panicked because I I lead large group workshops, you know, and your uh your listeners. 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:43.840 There's 50, 70, 100 people in the room, all on the basis of some individual or group that said, come together to do this seemingly impossible thing. 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:52.000 And as one of the top guys at Ford once said to me, and forgive the language, he said, Rob, I'm bringing 90 people together for four days. 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:53.759 This is a top four guy. 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:56.720 He got a multi-billion dollar budget. 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.320 I'm bringing 90 people together for four days. 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:04.000 If this doesn't work, I'm gonna look like a shithead. 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:06.080 And I I just started the lab. 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:15.039 I said, Carlos, given who you are, if you end up looking like a shithead, you're going to kill me. 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:16.639 So we're here together. 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.559 All right, we're in this together, and we're gonna get through this together. 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:26.320 And though there's at least one or two times where I'm just gonna say, you gotta trust me on this. 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:28.639 And you can trust me or not. 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:30.240 It's easier if you do. 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:31.919 It's easier if you do. 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:34.159 And he became a fast friend afterwards. 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:37.279 We know we would call each other up just to see how things are going. 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:45.759 But it's that that element of risk uh that feels unprofessional to managers who are facing that risk. 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:47.279 They would like to manage risk. 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:50.399 I feel that's part of their job, is managing risks for the company. 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:52.399 And they're right, they're right, of course. 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:56.399 But sometimes it's risky to manage risk, really manage risk. 00:11:57.039 --> 00:12:01.840 Playing it safe is not a good way to manage risk in every case. 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:07.200 Doing what we've done, where do

you think those risks came from? 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:11.519 They came from the fact that we've done it that way forever. 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:12.159 Okay. 00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:16.399 So to change that, ah boy, that's a different deal. 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:18.399 Because otherwise, it's funny. 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:21.440 If we play it safe, we always have the excuse. 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.399 I couldn't have known it better because in the past it has worked. 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:25.279 Exactly. 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:25.440 Right. 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:26.159 Exactly right. 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:29.120 Then we're back at the image of the armor. 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:33.679 Then if it if it lands, it lands on the armor. 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:39.120 If I try something that hasn't been tried before, yes, it lands without the armor. 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:46.240 And uh 30, 40 years ago, there was a saying in management that IBM sales consultants would use. 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:51.279 They would say, Ah, my friend, no one ever got fired for buying IBM. 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:56.720 Well, it turned out not to be true after a while, but it was a great line at that time. 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:06.799 Just go with me, and that manages your professional risk in selling this internally to your organization, yeah, which is always a big deal. 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:08.240 Yeah. 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:20.159 And what I hear in the in the story was taking the risk and taking the your client by the hand, say, okay, we both don't know how to do that, and we'll do it anyway. 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:21.840 Something like that, right? 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.080 I can still hear this lightheartedness in that. 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:31.440 And I would love to understand what you mean by that. 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:39.360 It seems like your superpower, where you walk into a high-risk situation with a light heart. 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:46.960 What do we see or hear Rob do or say when he is performing with a light heart? 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:48.879 Or being with a light heart. 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:52.080 Probably that's a great that's a thank you for that. 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:53.600 I think that's exactly right. 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.440 I don't think you can you can do lightheart. 00:13:58.399 --> 00:13:59.519 Then you're performing. 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:00.879 Right? 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:05.120 And you've got a pretty good nose for when somebody's performing. 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:08.080 You know, it just people are performing all the time. 00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:11.679 We know when we don't believe it completely, right? 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:14.320 If it's if it's performative. 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:16.480 In fact, that's a pejorative now. 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.159 Uh it's performative. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.159 You're just going through the motions. 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:29.759 The the posts people put online are so painfully perform that it almost is worth reading anymore. 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:41.440 Because it's I'm showing you a version of my life and my work, and man, and everything's always great, which is why your podcast is so brilliant and why people tune in. 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:46.000 Because they know they know it's not like that on all the time. 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:50.320 They know it's not like the last guy's last LinkedIn post. 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:53.519 Hopefully, they they just know it. 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:57.039 Yeah, but how do you be what you know? 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:00.240 That's that's the that's the question you're asking. 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.519 How do I be when I know? 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:07.279 I I actually don't know, but I know how to know. 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:14.080 I know how to learn, and I know how to hold a group together while we learn together. 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:22.799 What is uh in my wife's wonderful phrase, what is longing to happen in this situation. 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:29.919 So it's we we're kidding each other about always going kind of lofty and woo-woo. 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:34.399 Uh before see, this is what we talk about before we get online with, well, you know, we always go up. 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:43.679 So this is a little like that, because what's longing to happen is tapping into what's really real in a group and in yourself. 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:48.080 And what's longing to happen for me is not to be fake. 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:56.799 And to when I then hear myself being fake anyway, going, hmm, hmm, wow, I wonder what that was about. 00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:00.000 And uh what's what's realer? 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:01.519 What's more real than that? 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:06.080 No, it's not like there's any there's only one of us, there's only one person. 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:14.559 Each of us is like a like a gem with many different facets, and many different Robs, many different Miriams. 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:23.200 And some are more I was almost said acceptable, expectable in a in a professional situation. 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:24.960 But the others are there. 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:30.559 We all know the other the the the the the other facets of the person are there. 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:37.840 So let's just turn that around, see what what what kind of light comes through that facet into this situation. 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:38.960 Yeah. 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:49.279 And then and still you used the word fake, so there is a distinction between the different facets of us that are all true. 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:50.080 Yeah. 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:57.759 And I think of course we are adjusting our language, our being to the context. 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:02.480 I think that's part of emotional intelligence or social intelligence. 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:11.759 And then there is the code switching in the maybe almost dangerous sense where it becomes fake.

00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:13.119 Yeah, yeah. 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:26.720 When you're when you're obviously code switching and adopting language and adopting a stance and a persona and all of that, it it becomes we we call it code switching because we can see when people do it. 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.880 Uh and we and we get the inauthenticity of it. 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:31.680 Yeah. 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:36.240 And I love that you mentioned that you catch yourself. 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:37.920 Maybe this was in the past. 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:39.759 I do catch myself. 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:44.799 Um usually out of an insecurity. 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:54.160 I there are some podcast episodes that I listen back to, and I'm sitting there with excruciating shame. 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:59.200 Ah, no, no, I did that on oh, and it's oh, it's out there. 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:04.880 Because I can hear how I am just performing the smart ass. 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:11.359 Although, of course, I have no idea what I talk about compared to the person I'm interviewing. 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:15.599 And then the question is, is that a part of me or is that fake? 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:17.359 Well, that's a great question. 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:22.000 And if it is a part of you, uh is that okay? 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:25.200 Are there are there any facets that's just not okay? 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.240 There's some that I'm ashamed of for sure. 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:28.880 Okay. 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:30.240 What does okay mean? 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:31.200 Okay to who? 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:32.000 Who? 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:33.039 Right? 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:33.440 Yeah. 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:35.279 Okay in this situation? 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:35.920 Yeah. 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:39.920 There's some things I do that are are not uh helpful. 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:41.119 St. 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:54.240 Paul in one of the letters to one of the churches said something like he said in Aramaic, so I don't know what he said, uh, or Greek, but he said something like, uh, all things are permissible, but not all things are helpful. 00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:02.799 And a version of that that I like modern days is Suzuki Roshi's, you're perfect just the way you are. 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:04.799 And you could use a little work. 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:12.720 So that paradox of uh that's the paradox of of authenticity, I think. 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:14.319 Yes. 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:22.079 And why you were speaking, would no, let me first ask you, what do you mean by the paradox of authenticity? 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:24.640 Well, who's the one that's being authentic? 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:27.200 Who's being authentic? 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:32.000 Honestly, Miriam, we it when we were talking about facilitation and another thing. 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:42.799 Um, the most powerful lesson I ever got in facilitation was working in a jail, doing a performance in a jail with my teacher, brother blue. 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:44.640 Now, let me show you, brother Blue. 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.799 Brother Blue is an African-American man, was an African-American man. 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:56.400 Brother Blue, you're showing a picture of an African-American man with a butterfly on his palm. 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:02.079 With a butterfly, very colorful, uniform barefoot. 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:02.960 Barefoot. 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:07.039 We were doing uh a performance in a prison, and I would drum for him. 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:13.839 I heard the the rhythm in his stories, and I was so taken with this guy. 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:24.559 I went out and bought a drum, big old plumba drum, and just showed up one day on the streets of Cambridge, Massachusetts, where he would tell stories and just started drumming with him. 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:27.759 And we became good friends. 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:30.720 He was actually my spiritual godfather in so many ways. 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.680 He's the he uh the actual godparent to my children. 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:47.759 He's passed now, he's gone on to uh some more blessed realm, or he came back to be brother blue again, some other place, because what he was here for was help people find their own story. 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:56.160 So we're we're on stage in a prison, and it's like all hell is breaking loose because who the hell is this guy? 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:05.440 The the the uh African Americans are going, they were a little embarrassed by this guy dancing around looking like that, telling stories, and they're trying to be so tough. 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:10.160 And the white guys are going, what is that white guy doing on stage with him? 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:16.000 And the African American guys, all the Hispanic guys are going, when they kill the white guy, can we have his drum? 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:22.640 It's like and I'm I'm uh just going, What are you doing here, Rob? 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.799 Did you why did what are you what were you thinking? 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:28.799 Did you come to save these people? 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:30.240 Well, forget about that. 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:36.880 If you're here in some kind of uh liberal guilty thing, you're you're gonna get killed. 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:43.359 I mean, you're it not physically killed, maybe, but psychologically they're gonna rip you apart. 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:46.240 I've worked enough in jails to know that's what happens. 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:52.960 It's ripping people down if you can, because it's better than being ripped down yourself and you know, ripped or rip E. 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.000 You ripper or rip E, you pick. 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:57.599 Well, that's the only choice. 00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:58.480 Yeah. 00:21:58.960 --> 00:21:59.359 Ripper. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.720 Um so that's the choice people make. 00:22:03.359 -->

00:22:15.440 What happened to me on stage, Miriam, is I felt like uh the the thought came to me, if you're here for you, you don't have a right to be here, and they have a right to do whatever they want to you. 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:23.599 If you're here for some higher purpose, which Brother Blue was, then get out of your own way and just be here. 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:34.400 And I felt like uh I'd lived in England and I'd seen old cowhorn lanterns. 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:40.400 So cheaper than glass, so you would make lanterns out of animal horns. 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:52.559 So that it's they're translucent, but to really let light out, you one of the doors would swing open so you could shine the direct light on whatever it is you want to illuminate. 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.119 Well, that's what I felt happen in me. 00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:04.799 I felt something happened in my heart that swung open a door, and I felt like there was a light coming through me that wasn't me. 00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.200 And that's okay. 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:08.880 And that was a good thing. 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:13.680 All I had to do was get out of the way, get Rob out of the way. 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.240 And so what is really authentic? 00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:29.599 I think what is really authentic about all of us is that inner light that is not ours, and it is ours. 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.839 It's in us, but also through us. 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:41.680 That's what's really authentic, and anything else is just one of the sides of the lantern, to use another kind of facet metaphor. 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:42.240 Yeah. 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:57.599 But we do have the capacity of getting out of the way and and letting light come through us that really warms and illuminates it's not us, it warms and illuminates those who are around us. 00:23:58.079 --> 00:23:59.599 Well, no, that's worth doing. 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:03.440 So that's all by way of what's authentic. 00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:06.400 The light is authentic. 00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:11.440 And anything else we just need to recognize is a form. 00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:16.960 Uh a lot of spiritual traditions would say an illusion, a dream. 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:25.680 Okay, it can be a good dream, can be a bad dream, but what's really real is the divinity of all of us. 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:41.119 My my my uh wife's late husband, I went to divinity school with, curiously enough, that's another story, would say God is that which is greater than all and present in each. 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:43.359 So God language kind of puts people off. 00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:52.160 So the divine, the sacred, the the really real is greater than all but present in each. 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:53.759 And that's authentic. 00:24:54.079 --> 00:25:05.039 So when you pull all the all the shields, all the protections, all the wounds, all the ego, pull all that back. 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:08.079 Yeah, well, which is really hard to do. 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:09.039 That's a lifetime. 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:18.880 And then it sounds, and I think that's um something that I have come to the conclusion too that being authentic is the most difficult thing ever. 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:20.720 Oh, I know. 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:22.559 Being truly us. 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:27.119 Um because it's then we're back to the beginning of your story. 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:34.079 That's where you're so vulnerable because every every criticism is on us. 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:35.200 Right. 00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:41.599 And how can I mean can you be authentic without feeling you need to be loyal to who you were a second ago? 00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:43.359 Ooh. 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.559 Do I have to defend who I was at yesterday? 00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:51.440 I'm not even that guy anymore. 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:52.400 But we do. 00:25:52.559 --> 00:26:03.599 I mean, we feel obliged to to we we feel we need the continuity of a person, a professional persona, for example. 00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:12.720 You know, I can I can be Rob the Consultant, I could put that on, I can give you chapter and births, I got a CV up on the web, I got blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:16.400 I got a LinkedIn profile, I got all that good stuff. 00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:20.880 But do I have to be that when I show up? 00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:26.240 People want to check that out to see if I've shown up anyplace else and they didn't kick me out. 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:29.039 Yeah, once or twice, they didn't kick me out. 00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:30.319 Uh, okay. 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.079 But then I then do I have to show up like that every time? 00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:36.160 I hope not. 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:42.079 I think I now can put my finger on the light-heartedness. 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:50.240 And if I read it correctly, then it comes from this radical self-acceptance. 00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:52.400 Of a higher self. 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:53.359 Right. 00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:58.640 And and the the one that was here doing the best he can. 00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:16.559 Because I think only when you totally self-accept yourself, and that's what I hear in what you describe is hey, I might maybe who I was a minute ago is not the same person I am today, and trusting the inner light, trusting your intuition. 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:20.960 And then you don't have to take yourself so seriously. 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:24.720 I wish I remembered that more. 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:27.279 Send me a copy of this. 00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:32.319 I may need to watch this sometimes because you know I'll wake up and and I'll be an absolute worm. 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.160 I'm like, oh my god, I can't do anything. 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:35.599 Right, I'm on and on and on. 00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:39.759 Everybody goes through that cycle of up and down and up and down and up and down.

00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:44.559 And and when I say lighthearted, I mean actual light. 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:47.279 Ah, you mean the light as you describe it. 00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:49.920 Not just my heart, isn't all heavy and weighed. 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:56.480 No, it's light-hearted, which is not something I've ever put together before. 00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:58.240 So thank you very much for that. 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:05.440 So, as I understand, this light-heartedness still shows up in all the work you do. 00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:07.920 And that's in my best work. 00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:09.440 Yeah, in my best work. 00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:16.000 What are the factors that might turn that lead to you turning off the light? 00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:16.640 Great. 00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.319 That's a great question. 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:20.400 Or closing the door. 00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:21.599 Yeah. 00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:38.160 For me, often in my work, it's a f it's just a sense of professional responsibility when I feel I'm required to be responsible for something, and I don't do it as consciously as I would like. 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:40.079 I get cranky. 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:50.400 Or I'm I'm uh critical of the work of people around me in ways that don't recognize they're probably doing the best they can that day, too. 00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:56.160 You know, it I'm sitting here at my desk, it's early in the morning, I'm still being caffeinated. 00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:57.200 You know, it's good. 00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:02.000 I just had a hot tub, I had a swim, and then I rushed in to get ready to come here. 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:06.960 It's been a good morning, and I'm not tired. 00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:20.400 So here I'm 74 years old, and what I discover is working uh 16-hour days takes a different toll than it did, and it actually took a toll when I started doing it when I was 45. 00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:22.880 I just could ignore it. 00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:29.440 The jet lag gets me harder and longer than it used to. 00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:47.200 So fatigue is a is a thing, managing the physical body uh staying in shape, uh, dealing with the natural inevitable degradation of the body that happens over time, no matter what you do. 00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:59.839 Uh just accepting that and and um for me, Miriam, factoring that in so that I'm not you you've heard of Hangri, where you're angry because you're hungry. 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:00.480 Yeah. 00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:03.119 There's probably a tangry version of that. 00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:04.960 You're angry because you're tired. 00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:08.400 I think new parents can write books about that, right? 00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:09.200 Good point. 00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:14.160 I mean, you have people who have little watching this who have infants at home. 00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:15.680 God bless you. 00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:17.200 I remember that. 00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:21.039 I

have kids with grandkids, I remember it. 00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:23.759 And boy, am I glad to turn the grandkids? 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:29.279 I love my grandchildren, and I'm not sorry when they go back to their parents because I need a nap. 00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:30.319 Yeah. 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:41.440 And you chose the word endured, and enduring endurance is something that is such high, highly regarded. 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:42.880 Oh, that's professionals. 00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:44.000 We can endure. 00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:49.200 Uh takes a the old time excumeral takes a licking and keeps on ticking, you know. 00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:49.839 Yeah. 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:53.839 What price did you pay for the 16-hour stays? 00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:55.279 Great question. 00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:58.880 So probably learning what price I paid. 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:19.359 Uh it it brought me a so being able to be physically uh, I could take a lot of damage physically and still in the moment let the light come through and be energized by the group and energized by the situation. 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:30.079 So extroverts, as an extrovert, maybe that's an extrovert strategy that uh allows me to now. 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.119 When I say be on, it sounds kind of performative, doesn't it? 00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:45.039 But on in the sense of turned on and still the light coming through when it's required, and then when we're done, base plant. 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:55.200 You know, it's like oh, exhausted, or even knowing that I need to, and I've been doing this forever, don't tell my clients all the time, but I would set up venues. 00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:06.319 And when I led the accelerated solutions environments for Cap Gemini and uh Ernston Young before that, we would always have a secret room in the venues that we built and created. 00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:23.200 And we when we could, that would be the nap room where the crews who started at 6:30 in the morning and might go until 11 o'clock at night and then come back in to start at 6:30, could disappear and take a nap during the day. 00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.440 Why did it have to be secret? 00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:31.200 Why indeed, because we were also pushing our clients, we should have given nap rooms to them too. 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:33.039 How unprofessional. 00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:41.440 How unprofessional, how thoughtless of us to make give ourselves accordances that we didn't, affordances that we didn't give them. 00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:44.000 That's I I thought the other way around. 00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:48.319 How unprofessional to even think of a nap room that people might need the nap. 00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:50.160 Well, good point. 00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:51.920 Maybe that's why it was secret. 00:32:52.079 --> 00:33:00.319 We'd often have big stuffed animals around our centers for various reasons, one of which is they made good pillows when you took them into the nap room. 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.839 And having a pillow kind of gave it away, you know, it was that good. 00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:07.920 So, but you could take a stuffed animal and for a while. 00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:12.079 So your question was what did the endurance uh cost me? 00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:21.599 I think part of what it cost was the fiction that my body didn't have its own requirements that I might have listened to a little more carefully. 00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:30.480 And that when one is just gritting through it and enduring it, you kind of turn off the messages from your body, don't you? 00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:35.119 You just go, I'm I'm sorry, I don't have time for that right now. 00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:40.319 We got to design this new module on the fly because the last one was didn't get the results we wanted. 00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:42.079 So we got to do something different than we thought. 00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:43.279 Oh that. 00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:50.079 So it's um endurance is an override of the body, of messages from the body. 00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:54.640 Slow down, take a break, sit down. 00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:56.880 Will you just sit down for a minute? 00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:59.440 Meditate for 10 minutes, see what happens. 00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:02.319 Can't gotta go, gotta keep at it. 00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:06.640 And so the the distance from the the reaction, what's authentic? 00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:12.639 I mean, what's most most authentic is not I think, therefore I am, it's I've got a body, therefore I am. 00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:21.840 And curiously, most of our brain is designed to run our body, according to Michael Pollan and his new book on consciousness. 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:26.239 It reminds us that most of the brain, it's all about getting keeping the body going. 00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:28.400 Or does the thinking happen? 00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:30.079 Good question. 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:31.920 Interesting question. 00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:34.639 Not clear yet. 00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:36.559 Not clear yet. 00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.840 Do we think it all happens inside the skull? 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:42.400 Not really, not anymore. 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:43.920 Body knows it all. 00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:45.519 The body knows the score. 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:46.000 That's right. 00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:47.280 The body keeps the score. 00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:53.360 Yeah, the body knows, then the emotions perceive, and finally the brain comes along and makes sense out of it. 00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:55.360 The brain is always the last to know. 00:34:55.679 --> 00:35:01.920 How present are emotions in your work and the work that you do? 00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:02.639 Yeah. 00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:07.760 They're very present, and I I would put it, I would frame it a little differently. 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.639 And not just emotions, but energy. 00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:21.119 The energy of the room is the emotions of

the room, the the the aggregate average emotions of the room, but managing the emotions of the room is a big deal. 00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:23.679 Because that's how come that's how people change. 00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:26.000 People change because you tuck them into it. 00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:27.679 No, they don't. 00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:32.079 People change because they have an experience, an emotional experience. 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:34.880 The change is necessary and possible. 00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:43.440 And why is it that it's easier to communicate about energy than about the accumulated emotions in the room? 00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:46.159 Because it's so unprofessional. 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:47.519 Are you kidding? 00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:50.559 To talk about the emotions of a company? 00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.559 Well, you can talk about the energy, and it sounds vaguely scientific. 00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:56.079 Unless you're from California. 00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:58.719 And then it sounds, well, that's pretty woo-woo, Rob. 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:00.400 You're from Moran County, aren't you? 00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:03.280 Oh, of course he's talking about energy. 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:08.079 It's it's a cloak in a way, but it's also more than just the emotions. 00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.760 If emotions are I'm feeling good, I'm feeling bad, or I'm angry, I'm happy. 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:12.880 Those are emotions. 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:21.199 But there's something at a more fundamental level than the emotional flip show. 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.360 Emotions are are constant, they're fleeting in a way. 00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:36.239 And there's something more substantial about energy that are maybe the source of all emotions reflect the body's energy of one kind or another. 00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:39.519 Emotion being energy in motion. 00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:41.760 Energy in motion. 00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:42.880 That's very good. 00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:44.480 I like that. 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:45.599 I might use that. 00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:46.719 May I use that? 00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:48.159 I'll give you full credit. 00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:49.039 I didn't invent it. 00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:52.159 Well, yeah, I know, but I didn't hear it from whoever did. 00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:52.960 I heard it from you. 00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:54.880 So I'm giving you credit. 00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:58.800 You're gonna go in my book of black quotes. 00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:00.880 My black book of quotes. 00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:03.519 Um, you want to know what you're coming after? 00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:04.159 Yes, please. 00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:13.840 Says the success of an intervention depends on the inner state of the intervener. 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:15.760 That's good. 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:17.199 Somehow related. 00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:18.079 I know. 00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:21.519 So this is this is this you came right at the right time. 00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:28.159 Wiza uh Hester said, if I'm not in on the takeoff, don't expect me on the landing. 00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:30.960 Oh, that's good, right? 00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:32.320 Yeah, beautiful. 00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:38.159 And then my friend William Muri said, if it's predictable, it's preventable. 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:42.960 He's talking about international conflict, but it works all sorts of places. 00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:45.360 If it's predictable, it's preventable. 00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:47.119 Yes, yes. 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.000 And you get and next comes Miriam. 00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:53.280 Emotion is energy in motion. 00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:55.840 I could go on and on there. 00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:02.239 I still have a very long list of topics that we haven't even touched upon, but I would be very curious. 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:03.280 I hope that you'll be back. 00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:06.400 I go off on something. 00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:07.679 But it's beautiful. 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:16.159 And I would like to close with a question: what is an unprofessional advice that you would give to the listeners? 00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:18.639 Well, it has something to do with fun. 00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:22.800 I would put advice about fun in a bunch of different ways. 00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:32.800 One of our axioms in the design shop world that Matt and Gail Taylor came up with is if you can't have fun with the problem, you'll never solve it. 00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:40.800 And I would use that, I would put that axiom out there and say, look, we're not here to have fun, but are you willing to have some fun? 00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:46.639 And I'll do it in a kind of a teasing way and invite them to think about that. 00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:50.559 So if you can't have fun with the problem, you'll never solve it. 00:38:51.360 --> 00:39:04.000 Um and uh my wife, Carolyn Buckloose, who invented something called the decade game, as one of her axioms is if you're not having fun, it's because you're playing somebody else's game. 00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:06.000 That's good too, huh? 00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:08.800 So have fun. 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:10.639 Try having fun. 00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:13.599 Try having a little more fun on a scale of one to ten. 00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:16.000 How much fun did you have yesterday? 00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:21.440 Okay, what would it take to increase by one point today? 00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:25.599 How could you have just a little more fun today? 00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:30.079 You don't want to push it, you know, you don't want to burn out the system having too much fun. 00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:31.519 But how could you increase? 00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:35.599 How could you increase your level of fun just a little bit today? 00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:36.559 Yeah. 00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:41.920 And by adding, by making it a little bit of our own game. 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:47.599 By asking, whose game am I

playing here? 00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:48.079 Yeah. 00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:50.159 See, that's what I love about you. 00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:52.079 That's why you're doing this. 00:39:52.159 --> 00:40:08.400 I mean, you're doing this podcast for all kinds of reasons, but one of the things I take as a good reason to do this podcast is you invite us to remember that whatever we think professional means, it's probably somebody else's game. 00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:10.239 Yes. 00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:12.719 Probably somebody else's game. 00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:15.119 What if it were your game? 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:16.960 What would that be like? 00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:18.239 Wouldn't that be cool? 00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:22.800 It beautifully connects back to the story with which you started. 00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:26.000 How do you see that connection? 00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:30.800 That you walked into the womb, you didn't expect to get the job. 00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:35.840 You were lighthearted, with an open heart, but also with the fun. 00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:38.239 Having fun with it, joy with it. 00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:43.519 Um, since you didn't expect anything from them, you were playing your own game. 00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:44.639 Good point. 00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:51.840 And this left such an impression that they chose you over everyone else, over the German engineers. 00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:53.760 Who knew? 00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:54.559 As they say. 00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:55.440 Who knew? 00:40:55.760 --> 00:41:00.400 And what I find the most remarkable in that is that they even admitted it. 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:01.440 They did. 00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:05.920 They didn't find all the reasons why you would outperform the others. 00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:07.280 No, you. 00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:08.639 You bring fun. 00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:09.280 Yeah. 00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:11.599 Turns out they were fun too. 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:15.679 They might not have admitted that either at the time. 00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:22.079 You were it's always it's always a blessing to be in conversation with you. 00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:38.320 Well, I feel the same way, Miriam, and I know that your your viewers feel the same way about you and your uh persistence, your insistence on moving to conversations that matter. 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:42.639 And that's why I love uh talking with you. 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:47.039 Because I feel like we don't it sounds like we don't have fun. 00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:48.400 We don't mess around, Miriam. 00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:52.480 We get right to the the the funnest stuff. 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:57.519 And what but and this by that I mean uh the most true stuff. 00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:12.320 There's a you have a quality and you bring a quality to your conversations that invites the people you're talking with to really step up to what's true for them and cut the BS. 00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:14.079 I really appreciate that about you. 00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:15.119 Means a lot. 00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:16.559 Until next time. 00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:17.519 Yes. 00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:22.639 Thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end. 00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:27.599 I hope that you found the inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for. 00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:38.559 And I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator from across the world. 00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:48.960 I'm devoted to continue this podcast and to deliver weekly an episode that maintains the quality that you expect and you deserve. 00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:58.800 And if you would like to help me to maintain this quality and to keep the podcast free, please help us visit workstop.org. 00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:06.400 Thank you so much. 00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:09.760 I hope to be in your ES next week.