บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ S2E7: How are cities changing to suit today's workers? With Kasia Maynard

biggest piece of advice I can give you 00:01:49.370 --> 00:01:52.409 is to just do it. That's a good piece of advice. 00:01:52.829 --> 00:01:55.269 It's often the biggest most important piece of 00:01:55.269 --> 00:01:59.760 advice I think. What's yours? Mine is very much 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:02.319 around AI, which is, again, becoming a very common 00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:05.299 topic here, as you can imagine. I have actually 00:02:05.299 --> 00:02:08.159 spent a lot of this week really delving into 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:10.840 how to use tools like JetGBT. In the course of 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:14.469 this week, I've managed to get... the Get Chat 00:02:14.469 --> 00:02:17.150 GPT to take the role of a CEO of a specific organization 00:02:17.150 --> 00:02:18.969 of which I've sort of detailed all the information. 00:02:18.969 --> 00:02:21.430 And then I've had it interview me about a brand 00:02:21.430 --> 00:02:23.110 strategy that I'm developing and forced me to 00:02:23.110 --> 00:02:25.189 sort of think about it very much from the client's 00:02:25.189 --> 00:02:26.449 perspective in a way that I wouldn't have been 00:02:26.449 --> 00:02:28.250 able to before. So that was really interesting. 00:02:28.889 --> 00:02:32.009 I also created a custom GPT. I created a producer 00:02:32.009 --> 00:02:34.990 for this podcast, which is very exciting. I haven't 00:02:34.990 --> 00:02:36.870 got it quite working the way I want to, but I 00:02:36.870 --> 00:02:38.590 can see the potential, which is great. And then 00:02:38.590 --> 00:02:40.810 the final way that I used it, and I'm just going 00:02:40.810 --> 00:02:43.180 to take a minute to tell this story because it 00:02:43.180 --> 00:02:45.979 had me in hysterics this week. So after doing 00:02:45.979 --> 00:02:48.699 all this stuff with work, in the evening my daughters 00:02:48.699 --> 00:02:51.120 who are who are 13 and 10 said they wanted me 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:52.639 to read them a story before bed. Now this is 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:54.500 a this is a sweet thing that they still want 00:02:54.500 --> 00:02:56.159 me to do this from time to time, but it's also 00:02:56.159 --> 00:02:57.620 a challenge because we've got rid of all of our 00:02:57.620 --> 00:02:59.560 kids books so we have very few things to actually 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:02.319 read. And so I said, well, you know, my laptop's 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:04.020 still sitting there open. Why don't you write 00:03:04.020 --> 00:03:06.300 to ChatGBT and say I was inspired by you, Dan, 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:09.419 and tell it that you want it to write you a bedtime 00:03:09.419 --> 00:03:12.319 story for 13 and 10 year old girls. And so my 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:13.699 10 year old went in there and she said she wanted 00:03:13.699 --> 00:03:15.659 it to write them a story. She said their ages, 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:17.520 it had to be family friendly. Those were her 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:21.719 words. and then she said I want it

to be about 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:25.060 a high school romance and I want it to have a 00:03:25.060 --> 00:03:26.699 plot point in the middle that we don't expect 00:03:26.699 --> 00:03:29.360 and a cliffhanger at the end. And so without 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:31.979 retelling you the entire story it started off 00:03:31.979 --> 00:03:34.919 with the story of these two girls who had been 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:36.479 friends for a couple of years and had fallen 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:37.780 in love and I thought well that's nice because 00:03:37.780 --> 00:03:39.800 some of the things we've heard about kind of 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:42.159 embedded bias maybe not completely playing out 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:45.240 the way we expect and it's a really sweet story 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:48.639 it's set in some sort of region I think of the 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:51.199 US felt maybe sort of Pacific Northwest, lots 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:54.300 of forests and rivers and things like that. Really 00:03:54.300 --> 00:03:57.479 sweet story, kind of this like verbal montage 00:03:57.479 --> 00:03:58.879 of how they're getting to know each other, how 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:00.860 they profess their deeper feelings to each other. 00:04:01.139 --> 00:04:02.840 And then all of a sudden one turns to the other 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:05.020 and she says, why have you been a little bit 00:04:05.020 --> 00:04:07.159 distant lately? And the other one goes, well, 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:10.300 it's because I'm in witness protection. And I've 00:04:10.300 --> 00:04:12.500 been in witness protection for the past couple 00:04:12.500 --> 00:04:15.099 of years and my real name is Sophia and there's 00:04:15.099 --> 00:04:17.720 a crowd of people after me. And right after she 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:20.279 says this, there's a bunch of hooded figures 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:22.839 emerge from the woods and she says, and now you're 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:25.720 in danger too. And the hooded figures start pursuing 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:27.740 them. And then one of them takes off his hat 00:04:27.740 --> 00:04:30.319 and it's the brother of the other one. And then 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:32.620 it says, they say, come with me and cliffhanger. 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:37.879 And I will never know how this story ends. Wow. 00:04:38.019 --> 00:04:40.519 I mean, Netflix, if you're listening to this 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:45.660 podcast, please comment. Took such a ridiculous, 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:49.459 hysterical turn. And the whole story was probably, 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:53.540 it took probably about 45 seconds to read. So 00:04:53.540 --> 00:04:55.680 a lot was crammed into that. So yeah, sorry. 00:04:55.899 --> 00:04:58.199 A bit of a long one today, but just thought this 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:01.279 is an interesting journey I'm having with AI 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:03.779 and its potential to bring some creativity to 00:05:03.779 --> 00:05:07.519 my life. So yeah. And what was your weird work 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:11.720 moment of the week? I think mine has been because 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:14.300 I'm usually based in London and this week I'm 00:05:14.300 --> 00:05:17.180 in New York. I've had a lot more face -to -face 00:05:17.180 --> 00:05:20.839 meetings than I would ever do in London. And 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:24.019 it's so funny because a lot of the meetings I 00:05:24.019 --> 00:05:25.720 do are with people in the same city as me, but 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:29.100 I'll always choose to Zoom, Teams or Zoom. And 00:05:29.100 --> 00:05:31.500 now I'm in New York. Let's meet face -to -face. 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:34.120 I'm in the city. I'll come and see you. I'll 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:38.189 come to your offices. And at the end of every 00:05:38.189 --> 00:05:41.149 meeting, we've all been like, this was really 00:05:41.149 --> 00:05:43.529 nice. I feel energized after this meeting. I 00:05:43.529 --> 00:05:47.509 feel great. Why don't I do this in London ever 00:05:47.509 --> 00:05:51.490 anymore? It's always very, very virtual in your 00:05:51.490 --> 00:05:53.170 own town. And then as soon as I travel somewhere, 00:05:53.389 --> 00:05:55.269 you make a little bit more of an effort to see 00:05:55.269 --> 00:05:58.730 people in person. So it's been, I think for me, 00:05:58.769 --> 00:06:02.170 it really highlighted how much I miss. the in 00:06:02.170 --> 00:06:04.509 -person meetings and traveling to different meetings 00:06:04.509 --> 00:06:06.709 and when I am in London and when I am sort of 00:06:06.709 --> 00:06:09.490 in my day -to -day. Yeah, that's a bit weird. 00:06:09.709 --> 00:06:12.509 It's like novelty almost, isn't it? It's a novelty 00:06:12.509 --> 00:06:15.009 part of it and I didn't expect you to say you 00:06:15.009 --> 00:06:18.329 felt re -energized purely from the last time 00:06:18.329 --> 00:06:22.250 it happened was Covid obviously and we had to 00:06:22.250 --> 00:06:23.850 prepare people, the company that I was at the 00:06:23.850 --> 00:06:25.709 time, we had to do employee briefing because 00:06:25.709 --> 00:06:27.910 we phased everybody back in and people would 00:06:27.910 --> 00:06:31.300 come in for the week and feel so exhausted from 00:06:31.300 --> 00:06:33.279 the social interaction. They all thought they 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:35.420 were ill and had COVID after it, but were like, 00:06:35.620 --> 00:06:38.199 no, it's because you're not used to so much human 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:41.579 interaction in person. You're actually just really 00:06:41.579 --> 00:06:43.540 tired and your social battery is low. And it 00:06:43.540 --> 00:06:46.100 reminded me of that. I just like, is your social 00:06:46.100 --> 00:06:48.779 battery low or actually are you on the flip reverse 00:06:48.779 --> 00:06:51.480 and you're like, no, I'm buzzing off of this 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:55.560 connection. It's fine. So I'm coming to the end 00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:58.060 of my

trip today. I've been here for a week. 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:01.939 I am My social battery is quite low now, but 00:07:01.939 --> 00:07:04.439 I think I know because it's a finite period of 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:07.660 time, I felt really energized and I feel, you 00:07:07.660 --> 00:07:09.139 know, I don't get the opportunity to speak to 00:07:09.139 --> 00:07:12.680 these people in person all the time. So from 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:15.040 the conversations we were having and the weather's 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:16.879 been nice here, so we just sat in the park and 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:19.040 had a catch up with a coffee in the park. And 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:20.720 it's not just sitting in a conference room or 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:23.519 sitting in your house or, you know, talking through 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:26.720 a screen. So it did feel, it has felt energizing. 00:07:26.759 --> 00:07:29.040 I don't know if it's the weather. I'm partial 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.560 to a bit of sunshine and a walking meeting. I 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:37.500 do think if my life was this in London constantly, 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:39.319 then yeah, maybe my social battery every week 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:42.519 would be a bit more drained. But once in a while, 00:07:43.220 --> 00:07:45.819 I think meeting in person, doing a kind of walking 00:07:45.819 --> 00:07:48.920 meeting and feeling the energy of someone else 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:54.639 as well, it does energize me, I think. I would 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:57.620 consider myself introverted as well at some point. 00:07:57.819 --> 00:07:59.620 You'd get just different vibes, don't you? You 00:07:59.620 --> 00:08:01.500 understand people on a different level. You kind 00:08:01.500 --> 00:08:03.120 of read their body language. I mean, there's 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.040 all this stuff around kind of pheromones and 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:06.500 things like that. You know, things are happening 00:08:06.500 --> 00:08:08.379 in the room that just can't happen behind the 00:08:08.379 --> 00:08:10.759 screen. So that's great that you got to do that 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:12.480 and have some sunshine, although we've had quite 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:16.879 a lot in London as well this week. So yeah. So 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:19.060 the other question we ask is, are you where you 00:08:19.060 --> 00:08:20.660 thought you'd be at this point in your career 00:08:20.660 --> 00:08:24.899 and why or why not? I think that is such an interesting 00:08:24.899 --> 00:08:27.319 question, because if you asked me when I was 00:08:27.319 --> 00:08:30.759 18, I'd say no, because I was hoping to be an 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:34.980 archaeologist. And at 22, then I went into journalism, 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:37.279 I was hoping to be a travel journalist. And then 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.779 at 23, I started pursuing kind of writing and 00:08:41.779 --> 00:08:44.639 journalism in the future of work. And I fell 00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:47.299 in love with it instantly. And so for the last 00:08:47.299 --> 00:08:49.480 decade when I've been researching and writing 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:52.179 and I've been evolving that love for the subject, 00:08:52.490 --> 00:08:55.929 Yeah, I think I am where I would like to be at 00:08:55.929 --> 00:08:58.590 this point in my career, kind of heading up a 00:08:58.590 --> 00:09:01.269 department around research and editorial. I have 00:09:01.269 --> 00:09:05.649 a lot of license to just dive into topics that 00:09:05.649 --> 00:09:09.330 I'm interested in. I pursued the urban design 00:09:09.330 --> 00:09:12.129 masters while I was doing this job as well, just 00:09:12.129 --> 00:09:13.669 because it was something that I was really interested 00:09:13.669 --> 00:09:17.190 in. And I've been lucky that my career has allowed 00:09:17.190 --> 00:09:20.669 me to be flexible in just sort of going down 00:09:20.669 --> 00:09:23.610 some avenues of tangential subjects to do with 00:09:23.610 --> 00:09:27.429 the future of work. And so where I am now, I 00:09:27.429 --> 00:09:33.250 feel, you know, yeah, maybe it's not where I 00:09:33.250 --> 00:09:35.629 expected I'd be, but I'm very happy with where 00:09:35.629 --> 00:09:39.529 I've landed with it. And, you know, I think there's 00:09:39.529 --> 00:09:42.029 so much more to be researched on this topic. 00:09:42.169 --> 00:09:45.590 There's so much more to be spoken about on the 00:09:45.590 --> 00:09:47.409 future of work and all the different facets. 00:09:48.190 --> 00:09:51.129 So I'm excited by it. I feel energized by Merrill. 00:09:51.769 --> 00:09:58.269 Got a lot of energy today, apparently. So I just 00:09:58.269 --> 00:10:01.289 want to talk to you about the this moment in 00:10:01.289 --> 00:10:03.210 work, right? So you've been looking at work for 00:10:03.210 --> 00:10:05.710 a number of years. And I'm sure as you said, 00:10:05.710 --> 00:10:07.350 you've been looking at the future of work, does 00:10:07.350 --> 00:10:10.330 it feel like the future is now here? Or is there 00:10:10.330 --> 00:10:12.309 something different about this moment that feels 00:10:12.309 --> 00:10:15.009 like it's just all the more relevant and topical 00:10:15.009 --> 00:10:19.529 to be discussing work? Yeah, do I feel like the 00:10:19.529 --> 00:10:24.440 future's here? In some aspects, yes. I think, 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:26.700 you know, and this is not a new thing to say, 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:29.200 but before the pandemic, a lot of these shifts 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:32.820 were in gear anyway. They've just been accelerated 00:10:32.820 --> 00:10:34.840 by the global pandemic and we've had that phrase 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:38.740 a lot in the last five years. But there are some 00:10:38.740 --> 00:10:42.500 things that haven't materialized and some sort 00:10:42.500 --> 00:10:46.169 of dead ends and red herrings that we've... sort 00:10:46.169 --> 00:10:48.210 of gone down,

like Dero mentioned, sort of the 00:10:48.210 --> 00:10:49.769 metaverse and things like that, you know, the 00:10:49.769 --> 00:10:51.470 beginning of the pandemic, that was a huge, this 00:10:51.470 --> 00:10:53.009 is where the future of the workplace is heading. 00:10:53.850 --> 00:10:56.029 You know, some people, some organizations bet 00:10:56.029 --> 00:10:58.789 the houses on that, that made some huge investments 00:10:58.789 --> 00:11:00.750 for something that didn't really materialize. 00:11:01.289 --> 00:11:03.889 But other things like workplace flexibility, 00:11:04.190 --> 00:11:07.289 autonomy, the way that we think about work and 00:11:07.289 --> 00:11:10.730 the conversations that we're now having around, 00:11:10.750 --> 00:11:12.669 you know, what is work, where is work, those 00:11:12.669 --> 00:11:14.629 kinds of questions. I think, you know, yeah, 00:11:14.629 --> 00:11:16.860 that's That's pretty revolutionary to where we 00:11:16.860 --> 00:11:22.139 were 10, 15 years ago. So in some ways, yeah, 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:24.600 I think the future, we're definitely kind of 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:27.120 talking about the future of work. And it is kind 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:30.519 of here. And in other ways, we're pretty far 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:33.120 away from what I think we could be talking about. 00:11:34.100 --> 00:11:36.960 So as you said, the pandemic has obviously accelerated 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:39.100 some things and put some things into sharper 00:11:39.100 --> 00:11:41.539 focus and then also shifted the sort of plates 00:11:41.539 --> 00:11:46.899 underneath. work in quite substantial ways. As 00:11:46.899 --> 00:11:50.039 a result of that we've seen some new models emerging. 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:52.340 We did an episode on the four -day work week. 00:11:52.379 --> 00:11:54.919 What other models are you seeing as kind of coming 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:57.519 out of that pandemic period or even things that 00:11:57.519 --> 00:11:59.399 were starting to happen before and have just 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:04.259 been accelerated by that stage? It's interesting 00:12:04.259 --> 00:12:09.860 in terms of models we were looking at, we did 00:12:09.860 --> 00:12:13.629 a kind of a trend report at the end of last year 00:12:13.629 --> 00:12:15.970 that looked at the kind of four strategies or 00:12:15.970 --> 00:12:20.429 five strategies that workplaces were taking to 00:12:20.429 --> 00:12:23.690 do with the strategies that they've been doing 00:12:23.690 --> 00:12:26.490 since the pandemic, sorry. So we kind of came 00:12:26.490 --> 00:12:28.610 up with these six typologies and I think the 00:12:28.610 --> 00:12:30.610 four -day work week sort of fits into that as 00:12:30.610 --> 00:12:32.669 some of them as a model but we spoke about the 00:12:32.669 --> 00:12:35.250 choice champions and there were people that were 00:12:35.250 --> 00:12:38.049 championing employee autonomy and choice and 00:12:38.049 --> 00:12:40.210 that was kind of the model that was really sort 00:12:40.210 --> 00:12:44.980 of around well -being and engagement and things 00:12:44.980 --> 00:12:47.039 like that. On the opposite side of the spectrum, 00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:49.480 we have the resolute returners. They're the people 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:53.500 like Amazon and JP Morgan. And, you know, the 00:12:53.500 --> 00:12:54.919 people are saying five days a week is the only 00:12:54.919 --> 00:12:57.679 way I can conceive a future of work to be. Therefore, 00:12:57.940 --> 00:12:59.639 you will be coming back to the office full time. 00:13:00.340 --> 00:13:01.879 You have people like the well -being watchers. 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:04.100 So that's another interesting model. So before 00:13:04.100 --> 00:13:06.700 the pandemic, I think well -being was a bit of 00:13:06.700 --> 00:13:10.250 a superficial gloss on top of work. You know, 00:13:10.250 --> 00:13:12.789 you come back to the office, people won't take 00:13:12.789 --> 00:13:15.250 substandard air quality. They don't want dirty 00:13:15.250 --> 00:13:17.190 workplaces. They're much more conscious about 00:13:17.190 --> 00:13:21.549 that. So the wellbeing of employees is risen 00:13:21.549 --> 00:13:23.610 to the top of corporate agendas now, and they're 00:13:23.610 --> 00:13:25.710 thinking about it in much more meaningful ways. 00:13:26.629 --> 00:13:30.690 And so we're seeing that as a shift. Another 00:13:30.690 --> 00:13:34.450 model was or a strategy was these kind of shape 00:13:34.450 --> 00:13:36.690 -shifters. So we looked at specifically at real 00:13:36.690 --> 00:13:38.629 estate. So at the beginning of the pandemic, 00:13:38.690 --> 00:13:40.789 we saw lots of people claiming that they were 00:13:40.789 --> 00:13:43.769 going to cut space or cutting space. Yeah, that 00:13:43.769 --> 00:13:47.230 has happened. But we've also seen a lot of organizations 00:13:47.230 --> 00:13:50.570 extend their spaces as well. Look at places like 00:13:50.570 --> 00:13:54.289 JP Morgan and Google in New York. They've made 00:13:54.289 --> 00:13:57.750 a pretty public statement that they're going 00:13:57.750 --> 00:14:00.129 back to the office. They've made these huge campuses 00:14:00.129 --> 00:14:03.629 here. And then the other ones, you know, we had, 00:14:03.629 --> 00:14:08.149 we had the kind of digital, digital transformers 00:14:08.149 --> 00:14:10.269 and these were the beginning of the pandemic, 00:14:10.610 --> 00:14:12.370 better to have the metaverse. And now we're really 00:14:12.370 --> 00:14:14.769 just talking about AI metaverse kind of isn't 00:14:14.769 --> 00:14:18.669 really in our daily conversations anymore. And 00:14:18.669 --> 00:14:22.309 then, yeah, and the data models as well that 00:14:22.309 --> 00:14:24.269 people have taken. So, you know, at the beginning 00:14:24.269 --> 00:14:27.230 of the pandemic, again, it was much more what's 00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:29.769 happening with occupancy

and what can we learn 00:14:29.769 --> 00:14:32.649 from our data? What is our data? And now it's 00:14:32.649 --> 00:14:35.309 how can our data inform decisions? How can we 00:14:35.309 --> 00:14:37.110 start being more predictive with what we know 00:14:37.110 --> 00:14:39.470 about the office and what we know about people 00:14:39.470 --> 00:14:42.110 and making those experiences much more personalized? 00:14:43.049 --> 00:14:46.690 So those were the six strategies and some people 00:14:46.690 --> 00:14:50.110 cross over multiple strategies. That was the 00:14:50.110 --> 00:14:53.490 way we kind of made sense of the structures that 00:14:53.490 --> 00:14:55.350 were happening at the moment and the shifts that 00:14:55.350 --> 00:14:59.889 were happening. is there research or data that 00:14:59.889 --> 00:15:02.330 shows which of those models people are generally 00:15:02.330 --> 00:15:04.149 preferring and which are most successful or does 00:15:04.149 --> 00:15:06.389 that kind of vary based on sector and company 00:15:06.389 --> 00:15:09.450 size and culture and things like that? It does 00:15:09.450 --> 00:15:12.289 vary but there are general shifts as well. So 00:15:12.289 --> 00:15:15.029 we identified those six models at the beginning 00:15:15.029 --> 00:15:19.409 of the pandemic and then we revisited them in 00:15:19.409 --> 00:15:22.309 December 2024 and so we looked at some of the 00:15:22.309 --> 00:15:25.929 shifts and at the beginning the choice champion 00:15:25.929 --> 00:15:29.970 group That was the group that was most vocal 00:15:29.970 --> 00:15:32.610 and they were saying, we've gone remote and talking 00:15:32.610 --> 00:15:35.470 about people like Spotify, Atlassian, those kinds 00:15:35.470 --> 00:15:38.870 of companies and really hanging their hat on 00:15:38.870 --> 00:15:43.190 remote working. That has shifted. We've now seen 00:15:43.190 --> 00:15:46.830 a shift where hybrid was actually, and is actually 00:15:46.830 --> 00:15:49.230 very complex and people still don't know how 00:15:49.230 --> 00:15:53.169 to do it successfully. And so they're kind of 00:15:53.169 --> 00:15:57.529 migrating back to in -office, in -person. work. 00:15:57.549 --> 00:15:59.389 And so I think that's been one of the key kind 00:15:59.389 --> 00:16:02.289 of shifts in that demographic that hybrid just 00:16:02.289 --> 00:16:04.870 became a bit too difficult to manage or to do 00:16:04.870 --> 00:16:07.389 and there's no blueprint for it. And actually 00:16:07.389 --> 00:16:09.250 there is a blueprint for coming into the office 00:16:09.250 --> 00:16:11.250 because we've been doing that for 100 years. 00:16:11.889 --> 00:16:14.629 So that was maybe the biggest shift we saw between 00:16:14.629 --> 00:16:16.450 yeah, choice still exists, but not in the same 00:16:16.450 --> 00:16:18.070 way that we were talking about it five years 00:16:18.070 --> 00:16:21.769 ago at the beginning of the pandemic. And how 00:16:21.769 --> 00:16:25.720 are these things? these shifts impacting cities 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:27.539 and central business districts and places where 00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:29.480 people used to go into work all the time. What 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:31.500 are we seeing happening there in response to 00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:36.299 this? Well at the beginning of the pandemic we 00:16:36.299 --> 00:16:38.639 obviously saw a lot of people move out of the 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.379 city and I'm specifically talking about London 00:16:41.379 --> 00:16:42.799 at this point because that's my sort of lived 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.639 experience but having been in New York this week 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:47.980 in the conversations I've had it seems to be 00:16:47.980 --> 00:16:50.460 a trend here as well. People moved out of Manhattan 00:16:51.629 --> 00:16:54.210 people moved out of the kind of key work spaces. 00:16:54.909 --> 00:16:58.029 So again, looking at London and New York, I was 00:16:58.029 --> 00:16:59.529 talking to someone yesterday and they said Wall 00:16:59.529 --> 00:17:01.870 Street is a dead end. Now there's nothing going 00:17:01.870 --> 00:17:04.430 on in Wall Street and it's much, much similar 00:17:04.430 --> 00:17:07.690 to Canary Wharf in London. You know, if people 00:17:07.690 --> 00:17:09.349 aren't going to the office every day to work 00:17:09.349 --> 00:17:13.329 and those are two very specifically designed 00:17:13.329 --> 00:17:16.809 places for office working and for financial institutions 00:17:16.809 --> 00:17:19.470 to work. If that's not happening anymore, then 00:17:19.470 --> 00:17:22.109 those places become dead. and actually in New 00:17:22.109 --> 00:17:26.589 York where is an area that's much more successful 00:17:26.589 --> 00:17:29.670 now is the Hudson Yards area because it has the 00:17:29.670 --> 00:17:31.690 High Line, because it has new coffee shops, the 00:17:31.690 --> 00:17:35.190 buildings are new, there's terraces, it feels 00:17:35.190 --> 00:17:40.170 much more vibrant there. Similar to London, the 00:17:40.170 --> 00:17:42.309 city of London now you see construction happening 00:17:42.309 --> 00:17:45.349 all the time, there's more amenities. So yeah, 00:17:45.589 --> 00:17:48.170 while the data might suggest that we're not back 00:17:48.170 --> 00:17:51.049 to sort of pre -pandemic levels, The way that 00:17:51.049 --> 00:17:55.630 we use the city and I think the way people are 00:17:55.630 --> 00:17:57.269 coming into the office and showing up to the 00:17:57.269 --> 00:17:59.650 office is different. People expect a higher level 00:17:59.650 --> 00:18:03.329 of external amenities. They expect better workplaces. 00:18:03.490 --> 00:18:07.349 They don't want to go and sit in a high -rise, 00:18:07.450 --> 00:18:10.730 old building in Canary Wharf where their amenities 00:18:10.730 --> 00:18:13.029 are, you know, generic kind of coffee chains 00:18:13.029 --> 00:18:16.589 and, you know, not. And I know they're doing

00:18:16.589 --> 00:18:19.079 actually a lot of work in Canary Wharf. I don't 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:21.059 want to pick on that area specifically, but it 00:18:21.059 --> 00:18:23.539 is an example of people moving away. So I think 00:18:23.539 --> 00:18:26.220 people's expectations of the cities now has increased 00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:29.420 much like it has for the office. But there was 00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:33.059 a whole narrative five years ago where the city's 00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:35.640 dead. When we're moving to suburban areas, we're 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.940 going to be in clusters in suburbia, and the 00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:41.359 15 -minute city can only really exist in these 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.480 clusters of neighborhoods. And the more and more 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.019 conversations I'm having, I think that the more 00:18:47.019 --> 00:18:50.569 I'm seeing, I don't think that's actually the 00:18:50.569 --> 00:18:52.990 reality. Cities are very much still vibrant. 00:18:53.750 --> 00:18:56.130 People still want to be together in person, but 00:18:56.130 --> 00:18:58.390 it's different. It's not centered around work 00:18:58.390 --> 00:19:00.049 in the same way it was anymore. It's centered 00:19:00.049 --> 00:19:04.109 around life and work being a facet of that. Yeah. 00:19:04.130 --> 00:19:05.730 There's quite a lot in the press this week about 00:19:05.730 --> 00:19:08.289 people, the interest in properties and searches 00:19:08.289 --> 00:19:10.269 for properties in London suddenly back up again 00:19:10.269 --> 00:19:12.750 in a quite dramatic way. After a long period 00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:15.829 of far fewer people looking for places in London, 00:19:15.930 --> 00:19:18.859 which does suggest something around you know, 00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:20.740 it's not because they're moving closer to work 00:19:20.740 --> 00:19:22.680 necessarily, I think it's because they're looking 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:25.900 for something that cities have to offer. So what 00:19:25.900 --> 00:19:27.880 do you see happening in those places? I know 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:30.319 there was quite a lot of discussion some years 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.259 back about kind of repurposing disused office 00:19:33.259 --> 00:19:35.799 space into residential. Are we actually seeing 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:37.720 that happen or what do we expect from those? 00:19:38.009 --> 00:19:40.950 very kind of concentrated business districts 00:19:40.950 --> 00:19:43.509 moving forward since it's probably likely that 00:19:43.509 --> 00:19:45.369 even in quite a few people do go back into the 00:19:45.369 --> 00:19:48.009 office that the nature of that attendance and 00:19:48.009 --> 00:19:50.269 the cadence of that attendance is likely to change. 00:19:52.089 --> 00:19:55.130 Yeah, that's a really interesting question as 00:19:55.130 --> 00:19:58.369 well because we did a kind of a trend report 00:19:58.369 --> 00:19:59.630 at the beginning of this year where we looked 00:19:59.630 --> 00:20:02.410 at eight global cities and we were seeing what's 00:20:02.410 --> 00:20:03.890 happening with the real estate in those eight 00:20:03.890 --> 00:20:07.009 cities. I can recall them off the top of my head 00:20:07.009 --> 00:20:11.220 now. It was Amsterdam, Dubai, Singapore, London, 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:15.400 Tokyo, New York, Buenos Aires and Melbourne. 00:20:21.779 --> 00:20:26.619 But within that, we saw kind of subsections of 00:20:26.619 --> 00:20:28.599 what was happening there. So we had some, you 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:30.440 know, the really innovative cities that are thinking 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:34.349 about and smart infrastructure and they've got, 00:20:34.490 --> 00:20:35.789 they're starting to build the infrastructure 00:20:35.789 --> 00:20:39.769 for autonomous vehicles and built on data and 00:20:39.769 --> 00:20:42.690 they're sitting on kind of new cities like Singapore 00:20:42.690 --> 00:20:45.170 and Dubai and even the buildings in Amsterdam, 00:20:45.309 --> 00:20:48.029 they're thinking very innovatively about environmental 00:20:48.029 --> 00:20:52.490 and ESG and those sorts of things. Then we have 00:20:52.490 --> 00:20:55.109 kind of evolving cities like London and Tokyo. 00:20:55.210 --> 00:20:57.890 They've got a lot of legacy real estate, but 00:20:57.890 --> 00:21:00.500 a lot of legacy policies as well. They're incredibly 00:21:00.500 --> 00:21:06.519 old cities. So how do you marry policy with environment, 00:21:06.819 --> 00:21:09.480 with people, with real estate? So they're kind 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:11.279 of evolving their process. They can't do anything 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.019 radical and completely build a whole new city 00:21:14.019 --> 00:21:15.880 because they've got a lot of legacy infrastructure. 00:21:16.779 --> 00:21:19.299 And then we had some cities that we deemed to 00:21:19.299 --> 00:21:23.240 be slightly more resilient. So Melbourne has 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:26.390 the highest vacancy. rates in Australia at the 00:21:26.390 --> 00:21:28.309 moment, and our vacancy rates are sitting at 00:21:28.309 --> 00:21:31.710 around 20%. And so they've got a lot of reimagining 00:21:31.710 --> 00:21:33.970 to do in that city. How do they make that a resilient 00:21:33.970 --> 00:21:37.769 place to be where people want to be? And so they 00:21:37.769 --> 00:21:40.890 are completely trying to reimagine their CBD, 00:21:40.970 --> 00:21:43.349 their district, and they're looking at things 00:21:43.349 --> 00:21:50.470 like green corridors. They're looking at activating 00:21:50.829 --> 00:21:53.390 kind of public spaces, within office spaces. 00:21:53.509 --> 00:21:55.509 So there's much more for the public and not just 00:21:55.509 --> 00:21:59.509 for the private band and the workers. New York 00:21:59.509 --> 00:22:02.250 is another interesting one. You mentioned office 00:22:02.250 --> 00:22:05.210 to resi conversions. That seems to be

something 00:22:05.210 --> 00:22:09.789 that I've seen and maybe most maturely here. 00:22:11.069 --> 00:22:13.390 I know I previously worked at Gansler for the 00:22:13.390 --> 00:22:14.710 research institute. I know this is something 00:22:14.710 --> 00:22:18.190 that they are. really focusing on, but they did 00:22:18.190 --> 00:22:19.410 a piece of research and they said, actually, 00:22:19.490 --> 00:22:21.609 it's the worst office buildings that make the 00:22:21.609 --> 00:22:26.170 best houses because they have, you know, smaller 00:22:26.170 --> 00:22:30.690 ceilings or lower down ceilings. Their floor 00:22:30.690 --> 00:22:34.029 plates aren't as big. They make the best houses. 00:22:34.130 --> 00:22:37.130 So actually that offers a prime opportunity to 00:22:37.130 --> 00:22:39.609 take some of that B and C building stuff and 00:22:39.609 --> 00:22:42.579 turn that into some fantastic housing. You know, 00:22:42.579 --> 00:22:44.880 my personal opinion on that is a lot of those 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:48.259 buildings aren't in the locations you want to 00:22:48.259 --> 00:22:51.880 be in. So you can convert them into amazing houses, 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:54.519 but if they're in the outskirts of the city and 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:57.599 the public transport is really bad, are you going 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:00.079 to want to live there? I don't know. But it's 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:02.319 possible. And then they're looking into the kind 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:04.319 of office -to -resi conversions. And I think 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:07.319 it's a really interesting opportunity, but I 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:09.079 think there's other opportunities to convert. 00:23:10.059 --> 00:23:14.200 you know, old building stock into activating 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:16.980 them in different ways maybe than housing. And 00:23:16.980 --> 00:23:19.180 I think the 15 minute city explored that. I know 00:23:19.180 --> 00:23:22.099 it's a bit of a taboo phrase now because it was 00:23:22.099 --> 00:23:26.200 tabled and then almost had quite a backlash, 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:30.319 didn't it? I suppose not saying we're going back 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:32.839 to that, but is that an opportunity, like you 00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:36.619 say, for that stock to create a new area, not 00:23:36.619 --> 00:23:39.200 to live, work and do absolutely everything, but 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:43.380 almost create something completely new? Yeah, 00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:46.859 I would say so. And yeah, the 15 minute city 00:23:46.859 --> 00:23:50.059 had its moment and then it had its flowers taken 00:23:50.059 --> 00:23:53.700 away from it a little bit. But I think the premise 00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:55.920 of it was accessibility. It wasn't saying you 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:58.119 can get from one end of London to the other in 00:23:58.119 --> 00:24:01.299 15 minutes. That was never, it was never about. 00:24:02.980 --> 00:24:05.980 making places smaller, it was about having access 00:24:05.980 --> 00:24:10.319 to key foundational human needs, like education, 00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:14.019 like hospitals, like work, yeah, but amenities 00:24:14.019 --> 00:24:18.140 as well. And so people, you know, just want convenience 00:24:18.140 --> 00:24:21.759 at the end of it. You know, it's kind of a big 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:23.519 barrier to going into the office is the commute 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:26.059 that you have to do, the inconvenience of leaving 00:24:26.059 --> 00:24:28.299 your house. You have to have something really 00:24:28.299 --> 00:24:31.140 exceptional on the other side. And I think that's 00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:33.619 you know, what the 15 minute city is, the local 00:24:33.619 --> 00:24:37.319 city, whatever you want to call it, being in 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:40.839 an area where you feel so connected to a community 00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:43.579 and you feel so like everything is very conveniently 00:24:43.579 --> 00:24:46.619 accessed and located for you. That's a draw. 00:24:47.140 --> 00:24:48.940 That's a draw to the office. That's a draw to 00:24:48.940 --> 00:24:52.920 where you live in the city as well. And I think 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:55.680 the, you know, we've got rise in loneliness, 00:24:56.740 --> 00:24:58.900 the highest mental health stats and things like 00:24:58.900 --> 00:25:03.170 that. I think this whole increase in the need 00:25:03.170 --> 00:25:06.609 for meaningful communities is stronger than ever, 00:25:07.210 --> 00:25:11.609 right? That, you know, for Gen Z and future work, 00:25:11.670 --> 00:25:13.690 well, just generations, not just the workforce, 00:25:13.690 --> 00:25:17.630 I think that's clearly, it's so needed from society. 00:25:19.150 --> 00:25:21.430 Yeah, and I think if we are removing the workplace 00:25:21.430 --> 00:25:23.349 as a place where we get to have those meaningful 00:25:23.349 --> 00:25:25.769 connections, then what is it that sort of replaces 00:25:25.769 --> 00:25:28.529 those spaces, right? And I think, you know, historically, 00:25:28.529 --> 00:25:32.319 we look back at things like churches or pubs 00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:34.460 or that's kind of like two opposite ends of the 00:25:34.460 --> 00:25:36.539 spectrum but you know places where we used to 00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:40.740 get people together that were dedicated environments 00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:43.319 just for that purpose really just to convene 00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:46.140 people right around a common sense of values 00:25:46.140 --> 00:25:49.779 or purpose or whatever it is and I think we've 00:25:49.779 --> 00:25:52.119 lost a lot of that over the years and maybe the 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:53.680 workplace has actually filled in some of those 00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:56.000 gaps and now as that moves away what are those 00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:58.079 new community spaces that we're going to have 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:00.619 are we you know what when we look at the

future 00:26:00.619 --> 00:26:02.559 of the high street, where are people getting 00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:05.599 together? It can't just be about shops and sort 00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:07.500 of transactional type things. I mean, it's a 00:26:07.500 --> 00:26:09.920 question if even the shops are somewhere we want 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:12.279 to be anymore. But yeah, what do we do with all 00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:15.140 this space where we need to bring people together? 00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:17.440 What is the purpose of that space? And then I 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:20.200 guess the next question is how does then planning 00:26:20.200 --> 00:26:22.599 and government support the creation of those 00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:26.880 spaces? I wish I had the answer to that question. 00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:32.900 But it's true. What brings people together isn't 00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:37.240 necessarily what it was in, you know, 10, 15 00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:40.220 years ago, even five years ago. And you mentioned 00:26:40.220 --> 00:26:43.180 churches. That's really interesting because that's 00:26:43.180 --> 00:26:46.319 a huge community for a certain generation now. 00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:49.740 And then actually religion has sort of tapered 00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:52.539 out throughout generations more generally. And 00:26:52.539 --> 00:26:54.500 so it's not the congregational place that it 00:26:54.500 --> 00:26:57.740 once was and shops. aren't really a meeting space. 00:26:57.900 --> 00:27:00.500 You can generate a bit of buzz there. It's coffee 00:27:00.500 --> 00:27:04.019 shops and things. I think it's activating spaces 00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:09.700 and creating new experiences for people. And 00:27:09.700 --> 00:27:12.299 I do think it's going to have to be some combination 00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:16.460 of a digital, physical blend in spaces where 00:27:16.460 --> 00:27:18.720 people feel that they can connect and dial into 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:22.319 spaces through digital means as well. And in 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:24.599 retail, they've been speaking about the omnichannel. 00:27:24.700 --> 00:27:27.220 retail experience since the early 2000s. And 00:27:27.220 --> 00:27:30.119 I wonder, maybe that's what our, you know, we 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:32.180 need to start thinking about life and cities 00:27:32.180 --> 00:27:35.920 in that same way as well. And think about, okay, 00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:38.339 how can we blend the two? I don't have the answer 00:27:38.339 --> 00:27:41.279 to that, but you know, you look at, if I talk 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:44.500 very generically about a generational divide 00:27:44.500 --> 00:27:46.759 here, and I'll have Gen Z sort of biting my head 00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:50.509 off, same with millennials, but a lot of Gen 00:27:50.509 --> 00:27:53.210 Zs who are on social media are interacting and 00:27:53.210 --> 00:27:55.609 making a lot of their connections, who they feel 00:27:55.609 --> 00:27:58.390 very close

to online. People that they've never 00:27:58.390 --> 00:28:01.950 met, but they have whole communities of people 00:28:01.950 --> 00:28:04.349 exclusively online that they feel very connected 00:28:04.349 --> 00:28:07.730 to in their own way. In the same way that maybe 00:28:07.730 --> 00:28:11.410 millennial and Gen X wouldn't feel the same connection 00:28:11.410 --> 00:28:14.049 to those people. We have social media, we have 00:28:14.049 --> 00:28:18.170 those digital networks as well, but Our default 00:28:18.170 --> 00:28:20.049 has been to meet in person and to congregate 00:28:20.049 --> 00:28:22.009 in person, and that's how we make connections 00:28:22.009 --> 00:28:24.190 and meaningful interactions. So I wonder if there's 00:28:24.190 --> 00:28:26.730 something in there as new generations come up 00:28:26.730 --> 00:28:28.809 with different technologies, the way that they 00:28:28.809 --> 00:28:30.569 interact with the city might be quite different 00:28:30.569 --> 00:28:32.670 as well. And I don't think that we've had enough 00:28:32.670 --> 00:28:34.869 time to see how that's going to materialize. 00:28:35.190 --> 00:28:36.509 I think there's always going to be a need for 00:28:36.509 --> 00:28:39.210 human connection, but I wonder if there'll be 00:28:39.210 --> 00:28:41.170 something that's slightly more blurring the lines 00:28:41.170 --> 00:28:45.680 between digital and physical. creates a bit more 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:49.700 of a community feel. It makes me think about 00:28:49.700 --> 00:28:52.859 all the kids I see, young people I see filming 00:28:52.859 --> 00:28:56.720 TikTok videos, but in like public spaces. So 00:28:56.720 --> 00:28:59.400 doing kind of dances in public spaces where they're 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:01.259 filming for TikTok, but there's a crowd around, 00:29:01.259 --> 00:29:03.839 you know, and I think that is actually sort of 00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:05.799 to your point, right? It's like those spaces 00:29:05.799 --> 00:29:09.319 like parks and things like that, kind of open 00:29:09.319 --> 00:29:13.759 public spaces, the plaza, the, you know, the 00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:16.420 kind of boulevard type environment where people 00:29:16.420 --> 00:29:19.960 are generally more likely to meet up or to sit 00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:22.900 out and have a coffee on the pavement or whatever, 00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:26.279 are those spaces going to become much more kind 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:29.279 of digitized but also have this in some ways 00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:31.960 become both digitized and nostalgic at the same 00:29:31.960 --> 00:29:34.059 time, right? So there's a throwback to those 00:29:34.059 --> 00:29:36.480 spaces that we used to convene. that AI is going 00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.920 to threaten, I guess would be the word, a lot 00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:41.180 of the kind of cultural output and creative output 00:29:41.180 --> 00:29:43.799 from those industries. So where can they actually 00:29:43.799

--> 00:29:46.980 carve out something that feels valuable in the 00:29:46.980 --> 00:29:51.079 context of what is, you know, potentially sort 00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:53.380 of threatened creativity online? Does that make 00:29:53.380 --> 00:29:57.640 sense? Yeah, completely. But I think I also think 00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:01.779 AI can create an opportunity to help. create 00:30:01.779 --> 00:30:05.000 spaces that people want. So we speak a lot about 00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:09.160 the personalized experience in offices, but actually 00:30:09.160 --> 00:30:11.220 can our experience be more customized to the 00:30:11.220 --> 00:30:13.579 cities and the places that we go as well? And 00:30:13.579 --> 00:30:17.559 I did a case study of a really interesting company 00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:20.700 last month, they're called PlaceMaking AI, and 00:30:20.700 --> 00:30:22.400 they've worked with the Crown Estate on all of 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:27.779 their retail spaces in the city of London. basically 00:30:27.779 --> 00:30:31.059 collect all of the data from sort of Google reviews 00:30:31.059 --> 00:30:35.279 and Instagram, like any, any sort of digital 00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:37.720 footprint that people are sort of posting spaces. 00:30:38.099 --> 00:30:40.400 They're all anonymized and the ethics behind 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:42.680 it is quite robust, but they will collect all 00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:46.019 of that data. And then they start to create these 00:30:46.019 --> 00:30:50.660 AI driven personas. So, and then those AI personas 00:30:50.660 --> 00:30:54.000 become sort of You can ask some questions like 00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:55.759 check GPT. So you might have someone that's like, 00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:57.980 I'm a teenager living in the city. I come to, 00:30:58.339 --> 00:31:00.420 or I live outside the city. I come on the weekends 00:31:00.420 --> 00:31:03.240 and you can say, okay, well, what would you like 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:05.700 to do on the weekends? And then the AI based 00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:07.759 on all of the data that it has will respond on 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:10.180 kind of key things that they've been doing. And 00:31:10.180 --> 00:31:13.940 then you can start to tailor the spaces to start 00:31:13.940 --> 00:31:16.400 and start to predict what people will want when 00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:19.059 they come into those spaces. and have spaces 00:31:19.059 --> 00:31:21.319 that are much more responsive to evolving needs 00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:25.019 rather than creating these high streets like 00:31:25.019 --> 00:31:28.680 Oxford Street, which are thriving until the pandemic 00:31:28.680 --> 00:31:31.900 hit. And then suddenly they seem not obsolete. 00:31:31.900 --> 00:31:33.819 That's not the right word, but definitely less 00:31:33.819 --> 00:31:37.680 of an attractive place to do your shopping. So 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:40.640 it's having that adaptability in the spaces as 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:42.480 well to evolve to

different expectations. I think 00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:44.960 that will be something that will be really interesting 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:46.599 in the future. I don't think we're quite there 00:31:46.599 --> 00:31:51.470 yet. It's really interesting. I remember hearing 00:31:51.470 --> 00:31:53.670 some stats around the way that boys and girls 00:31:53.670 --> 00:31:55.869 use park spaces and boys are much more likely 00:31:55.869 --> 00:31:57.990 to go into the middle of it, play basketball, 00:31:58.210 --> 00:31:59.930 do the kind of sport thing in the middle. And 00:31:59.930 --> 00:32:01.950 girls are very much more likely to hang out at 00:32:01.950 --> 00:32:04.069 the edges where they can see the entrances, whether 00:32:04.069 --> 00:32:06.430 it's conscious or not. And so actually even be 00:32:06.430 --> 00:32:08.950 able to address some of those. you know, inbuilt 00:32:08.950 --> 00:32:11.150 issues would be quite interesting. I'm going 00:32:11.150 --> 00:32:12.890 to ask you a question now about something I completely 00:32:12.890 --> 00:32:16.109 don't understand. So if it sounds like I don't 00:32:16.109 --> 00:32:17.490 know what I'm talking about, that's because it's 00:32:17.490 --> 00:32:20.069 true. But I've seen some things because I don't 00:32:20.069 --> 00:32:22.170 fully get it, but some things around kind of 00:32:22.170 --> 00:32:24.690 creating digital twins for cities. So almost 00:32:24.690 --> 00:32:26.170 what you're talking about were basically you 00:32:26.170 --> 00:32:27.910 can create personas, but then you can actually 00:32:27.910 --> 00:32:30.150 design the city and then see how those personas 00:32:30.150 --> 00:32:32.210 interact with the space before you actually embed 00:32:32.210 --> 00:32:35.450 it in the city. Is that how it works? Yeah, so 00:32:35.450 --> 00:32:37.710 I don't I wouldn't want to speak specifically 00:32:37.710 --> 00:32:40.730 for that company, but it is possible, yes, to 00:32:40.730 --> 00:32:45.309 do something like that. So you can simulate a 00:32:45.309 --> 00:32:47.089 couple of different scenarios, a couple of different 00:32:47.089 --> 00:32:48.990 people in the space, see how they would interact 00:32:48.990 --> 00:32:51.250 with the space, ask questions, say, why isn't 00:32:51.250 --> 00:32:55.450 this working? Have someone that's basically interacting 00:32:55.450 --> 00:32:57.950 with you. And then, yeah, it's basically a digital 00:32:57.950 --> 00:32:59.630 twin where you can then manipulate the space 00:32:59.630 --> 00:33:03.569 in a digital world before you spend any sort 00:33:03.569 --> 00:33:05.940 of investment doing it. in the physical world. 00:33:06.660 --> 00:33:08.839 And as I'm talking, it does sort of sound like, 00:33:08.980 --> 00:33:10.700 okay, are we just going to stop asking people 00:33:10.700 --> 00:33:13.140 what they actually want now and we're just going 00:33:13.140 --> 00:33:16.079 to solely rely on AI? And I don't think that's 00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:18.299 the point of it. I think it's more, yeah, we 00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:20.920 still want everyone to have their say and they 00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:22.140 are having their say because they're writing 00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:25.839 these things in reviews and online. That's how 00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:29.799 the data is collected. But I think it's taking 00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:33.119 data that would initially be ignored or read 00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:36.440 by some and few and making that meaningful in 00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:38.619 the urban design and the layout of the city. 00:33:39.059 --> 00:33:43.539 So they gave a specific example of Germain Street 00:33:43.539 --> 00:33:48.680 or German Street in Soho. They found actually 00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:50.779 like it was traditionally very kind of suits 00:33:50.779 --> 00:33:52.680 and work clothes and they were like actually 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:55.440 a lot of people who are shopping in this kind 00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:57.940 of leisure wear. And so they were thinking, okay, 00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:00.140 should we like put in a kind of... a leisure 00:34:00.140 --> 00:34:01.839 shop and they were looking for different experiences. 00:34:01.940 --> 00:34:04.779 So they had these kind of arcades and they redesigned 00:34:04.779 --> 00:34:06.299 how they were thinking about those. And then 00:34:06.299 --> 00:34:09.380 they had an uptick on traction in that area of 00:34:09.380 --> 00:34:12.699 different, different people. So they are able 00:34:12.699 --> 00:34:17.960 to manage and measure the success of their spaces, 00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:21.500 like, you know, pretty instantly and adapt them. 00:34:21.500 --> 00:34:23.780 And I think it's, it's quite amazing. I mean, 00:34:23.780 --> 00:34:26.079 I, I won't pretend that I fully understand the 00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:29.139 technology behind it, but I do understand. the 00:34:29.139 --> 00:34:31.760 kind of capabilities of it. And I think, I think 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:35.519 it will be, it will, it will be part of an ingrained 00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:38.559 part of urban planning in the future. Bear with 00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:40.539 me here. So we're going on to workplace planning. 00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:44.340 So we know that employees are most disengaged 00:34:44.340 --> 00:34:46.539 they've ever been. There's tons of data and articles 00:34:46.539 --> 00:34:48.880 around that at the moment, where you mentioned 00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:52.960 earlier that the hybrid models aren't working, 00:34:53.500 --> 00:34:55.699 but being asked for because there's no blueprint, 00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:58.530 et cetera, et cetera. And I'm wondering, I mean, 00:34:58.750 --> 00:35:00.289 this has probably already been created somewhere, 00:35:01.170 --> 00:35:03.949 but has somebody taken feedback, like you say, 00:35:04.050 --> 00:35:06.550 that is out there and publicly available and 00:35:06.550 --> 00:35:10.309 flipped it into

how to create the blueprint for 00:35:10.309 --> 00:35:13.550 hybrid or find the way for it to work to then 00:35:13.550 --> 00:35:16.550 improve employee engagement and that interaction 00:35:16.550 --> 00:35:19.750 with employees and companies, because that then 00:35:19.750 --> 00:35:22.750 has the knock -on effect of Gen Z with their 00:35:22.750 --> 00:35:26.349 trust in brands, because we've touched on there's 00:35:26.349 --> 00:35:30.420 a rise in self -employed work versus the wages 00:35:30.420 --> 00:35:32.559 that you was a term that you taught me in our 00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:36.679 discovery call. And I'm just wondering, is that 00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:39.719 the direction that this is going or could go 00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:43.920 to improve employee engagement that would then 00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:46.219 probably have a knock -on effect on things like 00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:50.920 mental health, well -being, et cetera? Absolutely. 00:35:51.059 --> 00:35:55.219 When I initially saw that case study, I thought 00:35:55.219 --> 00:35:57.440 this could be revolutionary for the workplace. 00:35:57.789 --> 00:36:01.510 A lot of organizations already have much of this 00:36:01.510 --> 00:36:06.090 data. Many organizations do annual surveys. They 00:36:06.090 --> 00:36:08.610 collect data on occupancy. They have ticketing 00:36:08.610 --> 00:36:12.130 data for facilities. They already have so much 00:36:12.130 --> 00:36:15.469 data, but teams are siloed. There's so much they 00:36:15.469 --> 00:36:16.769 don't know what to do with it. You kind of get 00:36:16.769 --> 00:36:20.070 analysis paralysis and, you know, things like 00:36:20.070 --> 00:36:23.670 that, that actually that data ends up. staying 00:36:23.670 --> 00:36:26.469 there or only a small facet of it gets used for 00:36:26.469 --> 00:36:28.889 a certain purpose. And so I think by bringing 00:36:28.889 --> 00:36:31.670 it all into around and creating personas in your 00:36:31.670 --> 00:36:35.110 individual workspace and because it's based on 00:36:35.110 --> 00:36:39.210 data, it can be very flexible. So one blueprint 00:36:39.210 --> 00:36:41.590 doesn't necessarily have to work for another 00:36:41.590 --> 00:36:43.710 organization or even another office in the same 00:36:43.710 --> 00:36:46.030 organization because you're basing the data on 00:36:46.030 --> 00:36:50.210 people who are frequently using the space. And 00:36:50.210 --> 00:36:51.909 I think it could improve engagement in terms 00:36:51.909 --> 00:36:54.809 of the personalized experience that you get. 00:36:55.010 --> 00:36:56.789 And we're already seeing this with some workplace 00:36:56.789 --> 00:37:00.489 apps and technologies like Microsoft Fever Insights. 00:37:00.670 --> 00:37:03.849 They'll look at who's talking to who and start 00:37:03.849 --> 00:37:06.530 creating, not moving away from the traditional 00:37:06.530 --> 00:37:08.969 org chart and starting to look at things like 00:37:08.969 --> 00:37:12.349 relationship -based working and project -based 00:37:12.349 --> 00:37:15.460 working and things like that. They'll collate 00:37:15.460 --> 00:37:17.079 all of that data into an app and it will say, 00:37:17.179 --> 00:37:19.480 look, I can see that you've been speaking to 00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:22.079 Dan and Alice. Why don't you go and sit with 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:23.539 them today? They're both in the office. They're 00:37:23.539 --> 00:37:26.199 here. And then not only will the app sort of 00:37:26.199 --> 00:37:28.280 say where they're sitting, but there's also capabilities 00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:31.739 to do wayfinding to that spot now. And so the 00:37:31.739 --> 00:37:35.559 technology is there to make an experience so 00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:39.659 personalized and to help engagement rise. But 00:37:39.659 --> 00:37:42.800 again, that's the capabilities of it, not necessarily 00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:45.139 the reality of it right now. I still think there's 00:37:45.139 --> 00:37:47.659 a lot of work to be done inside an organization 00:37:47.659 --> 00:37:49.920 in terms of cleaning that data and understanding 00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:55.280 it, having the right roles in place. Again, in 00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:58.400 New York at the moment, it seems to be very siloed 00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:00.539 in some of these large organizations who have 00:38:00.539 --> 00:38:05.079 real estate, IT, HR. And they've all got different 00:38:05.079 --> 00:38:06.940 agendas and you need, and then we're seeing a 00:38:06.940 --> 00:38:08.539 rise of the kind of the workplace experience, 00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:10.179 chief workplace experience officer, whatever 00:38:10.179 --> 00:38:12.380 you want to call that role, trying to bring them 00:38:12.380 --> 00:38:13.980 all together. And that's how I think there are 00:38:13.980 --> 00:38:18.800 efforts happening. But there's so much potential 00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:22.719 for personalized experiences and, you know, increasing 00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:25.940 the engagement. But having said that, in terms 00:38:25.940 --> 00:38:28.179 of the engagement piece, I think that's really 00:38:28.179 --> 00:38:31.039 interesting because I'm sure you would have seen 00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:33.929 Gallup's survey. last week, maybe the week before 00:38:33.929 --> 00:38:37.090 where they've released their 2025 results. And 00:38:37.090 --> 00:38:39.389 for the first time since the pandemic, we've 00:38:39.389 --> 00:38:43.230 seen a dip in engagement again. And that's exclusively 00:38:43.230 --> 00:38:48.090 because of middle management. It's their engagement 00:38:48.090 --> 00:38:50.710 has declined so much that it's brought down the 00:38:50.710 --> 00:38:54.690 entire kind of average. And I think that piece 00:38:54.690 --> 00:38:59.650 is because, to your point, hybrid is hard. They 00:38:59.650 --> 00:39:03.170 are managing the expectations from the C -suite 00:39:03.170 --> 00:39:05.949 saying we

want, you know, we've got a business 00:39:05.949 --> 00:39:08.110 best interest at heart. We think that means bringing 00:39:08.110 --> 00:39:10.349 people back to the office. We think culture X, 00:39:10.349 --> 00:39:12.869 Y, and Z. You need to get your teams back to 00:39:12.869 --> 00:39:16.090 the office. Then they have directly their employees 00:39:16.090 --> 00:39:18.550 saying to them, but my mental health, my wellbeing, 00:39:18.869 --> 00:39:20.989 my autonomy, you're taking things away from me. 00:39:21.070 --> 00:39:24.170 I'm now discontent. And so they're like really 00:39:24.170 --> 00:39:27.110 at this bridge where they, and no one's taught 00:39:27.110 --> 00:39:33.190 them how to manage that and no one. We're kind 00:39:33.190 --> 00:39:34.969 of at a crossroads, I think, with leadership 00:39:34.969 --> 00:39:38.429 now where we need some serious kind of radical 00:39:38.429 --> 00:39:40.510 re -think about what leadership looks like in 00:39:40.510 --> 00:39:42.949 a hybrid world because no one's done it before 00:39:42.949 --> 00:39:46.130 and people are struggling. I have been in that 00:39:46.130 --> 00:39:49.349 position personally where managing up and managing 00:39:49.349 --> 00:39:53.550 down and it's, or when it jars against your own 00:39:53.550 --> 00:39:57.090 beliefs as well and managing all these expectations 00:39:57.090 --> 00:39:59.389 and like you say, there's no blueprint but you're 00:39:59.389 --> 00:40:01.260 trying to do it. navigate your way through it 00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:05.599 with what feels right. We've got such polarizing 00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:08.980 generations in the workforce at the moment, and 00:40:08.980 --> 00:40:11.400 Gen Z are the future leaders, right? So what 00:40:11.400 --> 00:40:13.139 is that going to look like in a very short space 00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:15.440 of time? Again, I feel like we're going to go 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:20.219 through another big flip, turbulent time. Yeah, 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:23.199 I agree. There's actually, there's a really interesting 00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:25.559 model that we've touched on at White Tech Academy, 00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:28.239 but it was actually coined by a guy called Ramak 00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:31.780 Jyot. Guerrero. I butchered his last name there, 00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:35.000 I hope he's not listening. He was the director 00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:37.860 of the Helen Hamlin Centre for Design at the 00:40:37.860 --> 00:40:40.739 Royal College of Art. He came up with this framework 00:40:40.739 --> 00:40:43.659 for leadership that was centered around clarity, 00:40:44.260 --> 00:40:47.739 empathy and creativity. I think it's very interesting 00:40:47.739 --> 00:40:49.559 if you were to look at that from a generational 00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:53.099 level, I think more traditional and more traditional 00:40:53.099 --> 00:40:55.980 hierarchical structures, clarity is the dominant 00:40:58.349 --> 00:41:01.869 trait for a leadership. It's quite, you know, 00:41:02.110 --> 00:41:04.929 it's command and control. I'm very clear about 00:41:04.929 --> 00:41:06.969 my messaging, but it's a bit of a, it was a bit 00:41:06.969 --> 00:41:10.630 tyrannical. And you kind of have millennial leaders 00:41:10.630 --> 00:41:13.829 moving up. They've experienced that. And so they've 00:41:13.829 --> 00:41:15.889 come with a lot of empathy and, you know, they 00:41:15.889 --> 00:41:18.869 want to understand everyone and, you know, make 00:41:18.869 --> 00:41:20.789 sure that everyone's happy and trying to manage 00:41:20.789 --> 00:41:23.650 all of these things. And then I think what we 00:41:23.650 --> 00:41:25.349 will see now with the younger generation is a 00:41:25.349 --> 00:41:27.590 bit more creativity in leadership. I don't think 00:41:27.590 --> 00:41:31.530 we've seen, obviously there's innovative leaders 00:41:31.530 --> 00:41:33.150 and things like that, but creativity in this 00:41:33.150 --> 00:41:36.309 context is a bit more like, how can we think 00:41:36.309 --> 00:41:38.929 outside the box? How can we, I see your point, 00:41:38.929 --> 00:41:40.969 but I'm going to take it over here and let's 00:41:40.969 --> 00:41:44.269 just play around over here for a bit and experiment 00:41:44.269 --> 00:41:48.429 with things. And so I think, and Rama's model 00:41:48.429 --> 00:41:50.710 essentially was saying we need all three of those 00:41:50.710 --> 00:41:53.750 in a leadership. capacity, you know, as I said, 00:41:53.989 --> 00:41:57.650 too clear, you become a tyrant, too empathetic, 00:41:57.710 --> 00:41:59.630 you become a pushover and too creative, you're 00:41:59.630 --> 00:42:02.369 kind of a bike without a chain, just peddling, 00:42:02.429 --> 00:42:05.769 peddling, peddling, getting nowhere. So you do 00:42:05.769 --> 00:42:07.710 need all three of those, but I think each generation 00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:09.869 almost has a defining characteristic that we'd 00:42:09.869 --> 00:42:12.369 see. And maybe now we just need to bring it all 00:42:12.369 --> 00:42:14.489 together in the round and think, okay, where's 00:42:14.489 --> 00:42:16.489 the opportunities to be empathetic, but where 00:42:16.489 --> 00:42:18.650 do we also need to be clear and where can we 00:42:18.650 --> 00:42:21.269 experiment? And maybe that's right, I thought 00:42:21.269 --> 00:42:25.070 that was a really nice framing of a model for 00:42:25.070 --> 00:42:28.050 leadership now because you do need all three 00:42:28.050 --> 00:42:31.250 of those components. Yeah, that's interesting 00:42:31.250 --> 00:42:33.309 and actually it references a lot of the topics 00:42:33.309 --> 00:42:35.469 that we've discussed on here as well, doesn't 00:42:35.469 --> 00:42:40.150 it Dan? I wanted to return back to the topic 00:42:40.150 --> 00:42:42.710 of wellness because I've done a little bit of 00:42:42.710 --> 00:42:46.630 work in this and I know that we've seen definitely 00:42:46.630 -->

00:42:49.710 a rise in investment in wellness initiatives 00:42:49.710 --> 00:42:53.750 by different organizations. But there was a study 00:42:53.750 --> 00:42:55.690 at the beginning of the year from Oxford University 00:42:55.690 --> 00:42:57.590 that talked about the fact that a lot of those 00:42:57.590 --> 00:42:59.969 initiatives just aren't working, right? So people 00:42:59.969 --> 00:43:02.269 are happy to take them up, but actually they 00:43:02.269 --> 00:43:05.170 don't meaningfully shift the dial in terms of 00:43:05.170 --> 00:43:07.469 people's actual engagement and feeling better 00:43:07.469 --> 00:43:10.110 and healthier. I just want to see what your thoughts 00:43:10.110 --> 00:43:15.440 were on where that That solution is falling short. 00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:19.980 That's a really interesting question because 00:43:19.980 --> 00:43:22.800 we've spoken a bit about, I think I mentioned 00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:24.699 it earlier in the school, the wellness gloss. 00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:28.659 I think that's at the moment a lot of where the 00:43:28.659 --> 00:43:30.860 wellness initiatives sit at the moment is this 00:43:30.860 --> 00:43:34.500 superficial gloss over work. So instead of addressing 00:43:34.500 --> 00:43:37.980 the problem of burnout, stress, disengagement, 00:43:38.699 --> 00:43:41.099 they will say, okay, you're feeling stressed? 00:43:41.460 --> 00:43:43.500 We brought you a headspace app. And it's like, 00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:47.239 but no, no, it's the meetings, it's the management, 00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:49.219 it's the training, it's all of that. That's making 00:43:49.219 --> 00:43:52.480 me stressed. That requires digging into some 00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:55.420 investment and some time. And actually it's much 00:43:55.420 --> 00:43:59.199 easier to just buy a wellness app, you know, 00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:01.800 meditation app for everyone and it's cost effective 00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:03.099 and things like that. And I'm not saying those 00:44:03.099 --> 00:44:05.340 apps aren't great as well. There's certainly 00:44:05.340 --> 00:44:07.639 a place for them, but it's not addressing the 00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:11.170 root cause. So I think there seems to be... And 00:44:11.170 --> 00:44:14.230 also, there are a lot of surveys where employers 00:44:14.230 --> 00:44:16.769 will actively ask their employees, what do you 00:44:16.769 --> 00:44:19.449 want? What would help your wellness? And if you 00:44:19.449 --> 00:44:22.869 just ask them what you want, they will give you 00:44:22.869 --> 00:44:26.269 a better version of what they already know. Whereas 00:44:26.269 --> 00:44:27.989 instead, if you came to them and you said, what's 00:44:27.989 --> 00:44:30.929 wrong? How are you feeling? What's not working? 00:44:31.070 --> 00:44:33.670 Where's your wellbeing suffering at the moment? 00:44:33.909 --> 00:44:35.769 You'll get much richer insights and you'll be 00:44:35.769 --> 00:44:38.929 able to actually make some very meaningful. decisions 00:44:38.929 --> 00:44:41.690 around where wellbeing can be helped. And, you 00:44:41.690 --> 00:44:43.650 know, there's lots of models looking at the spectrum 00:44:43.650 --> 00:44:46.429 of wellbeing, psychological, financial, social, 00:44:46.949 --> 00:44:51.489 physical. And, you know, you can argue that the 00:44:51.489 --> 00:44:54.969 workplace can't solve for everything, but it, 00:44:54.969 --> 00:44:56.989 you know, certainly in the physical environment, 00:44:57.070 --> 00:44:59.750 your office has a huge impact. If you're spending 00:44:59.750 --> 00:45:02.889 eight hours a day there, the ergonomic furniture, 00:45:03.150 --> 00:45:04.969 the very, you know, there's some foundational 00:45:04.969 --> 00:45:08.800 things. ergonomic furniture, a bit of biofilia, 00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:12.139 some plants in there, some natural light, air 00:45:12.139 --> 00:45:16.079 quality, things like that that we know will improve 00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:18.440 employees' perception of their workplace, but 00:45:18.440 --> 00:45:23.599 also that help. Financial wellbeing. Obviously, 00:45:23.619 --> 00:45:25.139 as an employer, you're paying the salary. That 00:45:25.139 --> 00:45:27.619 doesn't mean you need to pay everyone more, but 00:45:27.619 --> 00:45:29.659 it's, okay, there's some educational programs. 00:45:29.739 --> 00:45:32.519 Is there something we can do to help people invest 00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:34.119 their money, make their money work better for 00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:37.690 them? Is there some speakers we can bring in? 00:45:38.489 --> 00:45:41.550 You know, I think there are certain things that 00:45:41.550 --> 00:45:43.809 if you actually identify where the issue is within 00:45:43.809 --> 00:45:46.010 your organization in terms of wellness, you can 00:45:46.010 --> 00:45:49.449 start to meaningfully solve those problems rather 00:45:49.449 --> 00:45:52.590 than just saying, you know, you get medical insurance 00:45:52.590 --> 00:45:54.829 and an app and, you know, hopefully that will 00:45:54.829 --> 00:45:59.150 be fine. Yeah. Tick. We do often miss, as a marketer, 00:45:59.309 --> 00:46:00.789 we always go back to that. Sometimes you can 00:46:00.789 --> 00:46:04.480 go storming off in one direction. You know with 00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:06.400 energy and motivation all of those things and 00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.500 you sometimes step back and go we actually ask 00:46:08.500 --> 00:46:10.860 what people want And that's from an internal 00:46:10.860 --> 00:46:13.019 eat or even your client facing perspective. We 00:46:13.019 --> 00:46:14.820 spoken to them and just ask them It's that really 00:46:14.820 --> 00:46:18.000 simple thing of human to human ask them and then 00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:21.579 you could build it around that. Yeah What are 00:46:21.579 --> 00:46:23.460 some of the big research topics that you have 00:46:23.460 --> 00:46:25.599 coming up that you'd or whether you have

them 00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:27.659 coming up or things? You know, you'd like to 00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:30.860 to have coming up once you have the ability to 00:46:30.860 --> 00:46:32.739 pursue any kind of research project you wanted 00:46:32.739 --> 00:46:38.380 to. That's such a good question. But at the moment, 00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:42.559 I'm conducting some research on the legal workplace, 00:46:42.739 --> 00:46:46.159 which has proved to be a fascinating and scary 00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:48.920 place to be, because I'm talking on both the 00:46:48.920 --> 00:46:54.289 US and the UK side. Very different beast. you 00:46:54.289 --> 00:46:56.449 know, everything I thought I knew about the workplace 00:46:56.449 --> 00:46:59.269 doesn't apply to legal in some way, shape or 00:46:59.269 --> 00:47:02.989 form. They like to think they're very unique, 00:47:03.050 --> 00:47:06.949 they are unique, but that's been a really interesting 00:47:06.949 --> 00:47:10.030 research project. And we're kind of only just 00:47:10.030 --> 00:47:11.710 scratching the surface with that. So I'm diving 00:47:11.710 --> 00:47:15.489 into that in the next few months. I am genuinely 00:47:15.489 --> 00:47:19.809 very excited about that project. And then some 00:47:19.809 --> 00:47:22.389 of the things I think I would like to do more 00:47:22.389 --> 00:47:26.829 research on is And it sounds a bit dry, but just 00:47:26.829 --> 00:47:29.190 to, I'd like to do some research on sort of road 00:47:29.190 --> 00:47:32.550 mapping and blueprinting some of the things that 00:47:32.550 --> 00:47:34.969 we're talking about. That would be my idea. If 00:47:34.969 --> 00:47:38.309 we could get to a common understanding some of 00:47:38.309 --> 00:47:40.590 these things that we're talking about today, 00:47:41.550 --> 00:47:45.010 like, you know, hybrid, for example, or even, 00:47:45.110 --> 00:47:47.349 you know, we've gotten in conversations with 00:47:47.349 --> 00:47:50.409 someone who's conducting work into smart buildings 00:47:50.409 --> 00:47:53.659 now. And the term smart building is so ambiguous 00:47:53.659 --> 00:47:56.599 that if we were talking about, well, can we put 00:47:56.599 --> 00:47:58.460 some perimeters around it? Can we create a bit 00:47:58.460 --> 00:48:00.900 more of a blueprint and a common understanding 00:48:00.900 --> 00:48:03.539 of what some of these terms that we use every 00:48:03.539 --> 00:48:06.420 day mean? And so we're all at least starting 00:48:06.420 --> 00:48:10.460 on a baseline, a common language. And I think 00:48:10.460 --> 00:48:12.320 that's what we're lacking at the moment is a 00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:15.480 real common language between different departments, 00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:18.130 different industries. and therefore we're all 00:48:18.130 --> 00:48:20.690 using the same words in very different ways and 00:48:20.690 --> 00:48:23.630 contexts. So I'd love to do some research that 00:48:23.630 --> 00:48:27.570 allowed me to

place a bit of a stake in the ground 00:48:27.570 --> 00:48:29.849 in some of these big terms that we're using. 00:48:31.650 --> 00:48:35.030 How is all the research that you do and the different 00:48:35.030 --> 00:48:37.230 topics that you look into, how does it shape 00:48:37.230 --> 00:48:40.769 your personal understanding of work right now 00:48:40.769 --> 00:48:46.010 and what motivates you at work? That's a great 00:48:46.010 --> 00:48:51.710 question because I think I've always approached 00:48:51.710 --> 00:48:55.250 work with a, you know, I've always been a bit 00:48:55.250 --> 00:48:57.110 of a go with the flow person. And I was like, 00:48:57.110 --> 00:48:59.630 this is a really interesting topic for me from 00:48:59.630 --> 00:49:01.909 a journalistic perspective, but now it seems 00:49:01.909 --> 00:49:04.150 to be ingrained. The top of the conversations 00:49:04.150 --> 00:49:06.269 I have at work seems to be ingrained in my personal 00:49:06.269 --> 00:49:10.750 life as well. I'm talking, I am talking to my 00:49:10.750 --> 00:49:12.889 friends about this at the pub and things like 00:49:12.889 --> 00:49:17.409 that. And my partner as well. he works for, he's 00:49:17.409 --> 00:49:20.650 a civil servant and you know we had him on a 00:49:20.650 --> 00:49:22.210 call and they were talking about going back to 00:49:22.210 --> 00:49:24.889 the office and I sat there kind of rolling my 00:49:24.889 --> 00:49:26.369 eyes and I was like but why do they want you 00:49:26.369 --> 00:49:28.110 to go back to the office? What reasons have they 00:49:28.110 --> 00:49:29.670 given? What's going on there? And he was like 00:49:29.670 --> 00:49:32.090 oh yeah so we like have these big kind of debates 00:49:32.090 --> 00:49:34.690 just in my household now of kind of like what's 00:49:34.690 --> 00:49:36.409 the reason? Why are you going back? What do you 00:49:36.409 --> 00:49:40.190 feel? So I think in terms of like the whole RTO 00:49:40.190 --> 00:49:43.260 debate that's happening in my personal and my 00:49:43.260 --> 00:49:46.059 work life and it's completely reshaped that. 00:49:46.139 --> 00:49:48.019 But I've been very fortunate throughout the entirety 00:49:48.019 --> 00:49:50.559 of my career to have a lot of autonomy over where 00:49:50.559 --> 00:49:54.639 and when I work. And I think I've had a brand 00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:57.159 new appreciation for that in amidst all of these 00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:01.179 conversations. Because I can very easily blend 00:50:01.179 --> 00:50:03.599 my work and life together and separate it when 00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:07.679 I want to as well. Is there anything that really 00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:11.280 excites you about at the next couple of years. 00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:14.559 Again, I don't want to say pin anything on a 00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:17.940 prediction as such, but I think, as you mentioned 00:50:17.940 --> 00:50:20.800 earlier, it's been such a turbulent five years. 00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:23.820 What's exciting you about the next couple of 00:50:23.820 --> 00:50:29.719 years in terms of cities and work? I think it's 00:50:29.719 --> 00:50:33.519 the potential of data and AI to come into our 00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:37.090 life in a really meaningful way. I'm very excited 00:50:37.090 --> 00:50:40.309 and a little bit terrified by it, but mostly 00:50:40.309 --> 00:50:42.849 excited. I tend to have a very optimistic view 00:50:42.849 --> 00:50:46.409 on AI and what we can do with it. And I think 00:50:46.409 --> 00:50:49.510 in terms of that personalization of experiences, 00:50:50.090 --> 00:50:52.889 we welcome that in our apps, on our phone, in 00:50:52.889 --> 00:50:55.889 our daily life so readily, but we seem to have 00:50:55.889 --> 00:50:58.750 this hesitancy when it comes to work and external 00:50:58.750 --> 00:51:02.260 things we're a little bit unsure about. as we 00:51:02.260 --> 00:51:04.420 progress that line will blur a bit more and we'll 00:51:04.420 --> 00:51:08.599 welcome those more personalized experiences and 00:51:08.599 --> 00:51:11.239 you know the more data that's collected and the 00:51:11.239 --> 00:51:13.980 more we can use that in meaningful ways I think 00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:16.559 it creates a really exciting opportunity for 00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:18.579 urban design but also for the way that we live 00:51:18.579 --> 00:51:22.840 our lives we can make things a lot easier for 00:51:22.840 --> 00:51:24.820 ourselves we can we can be a lot more efficient 00:51:24.820 --> 00:51:28.780 with our time and optimize our kind of you know 00:51:28.780 --> 00:51:31.719 output and you know, hopefully have a better 00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:35.280 life. I have a very utopian view, I know, but 00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:39.300 I do feel optimistic about the potential of AI 00:51:39.300 --> 00:51:41.440 and I know I should feel threatened. I'm a writer, 00:51:41.460 --> 00:51:46.340 I'm a researcher. My job is, you know, very publicly 00:51:46.340 --> 00:51:49.320 declared, you know, that it's going to, you know, 00:51:49.400 --> 00:51:51.739 not exist in a few years because of AI. But, 00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:53.980 you know, I'm embracing it at this stage of my 00:51:53.980 --> 00:51:56.860 career and And I hope to continue embracing it 00:51:56.860 --> 00:51:58.719 and working with it and, you know, creating something 00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:02.219 that's different and interesting. And yeah, if 00:52:02.219 --> 00:52:05.099 I don't have that view, I think I would be a 00:52:05.099 --> 00:52:08.019 very pessimistic person, a very sad person. Two 00:52:08.019 --> 00:52:10.179 more questions. One's hopefully a simple one. 00:52:10.500 --> 00:52:14.139 You research into cities. Which city do you love 00:52:14.139 --> 00:52:18.619 the most for the way in which it, well, which 00:52:18.619 --> 00:52:22.360 city do you love the most? Well, I have to say 00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:27.150 London. I'm a London girl. I think

London's very 00:52:27.150 --> 00:52:29.329 interesting. I don't think it's the most innovative. 00:52:29.710 --> 00:52:33.750 I don't necessarily think it's the most vibrant 00:52:33.750 --> 00:52:36.869 of the cities, of all the cities. But I do think 00:52:36.869 --> 00:52:40.590 it deals very well with some legacy infrastructure. 00:52:40.909 --> 00:52:42.510 There are exciting projects that's happening. 00:52:42.630 --> 00:52:45.389 There's always an appetite for new things in 00:52:45.389 --> 00:52:47.650 London, whether they happen or not. I think there's 00:52:47.650 --> 00:52:50.510 a general excitement around the city. So I'll 00:52:50.510 --> 00:52:54.260 say London because It's home and I do think there's 00:52:54.260 --> 00:52:56.219 some great, great projects happening there at 00:52:56.219 --> 00:52:58.460 the moment. Thank you. And then my other question 00:52:58.460 --> 00:53:01.780 is what topic do you think we should explore 00:53:01.780 --> 00:53:07.920 on the podcast in season three? You've already 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:10.940 covered some very, very great topics. I listened 00:53:10.940 --> 00:53:13.480 to the podcast on AI and you've covered generational 00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:17.699 things that we've mentioned today. And you've 00:53:17.699 --> 00:53:20.840 covered the four -day work week. You know, I 00:53:20.840 --> 00:53:28.079 would... Maybe I'd like to see something on kind 00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:31.199 of maybe like innovation districts. So that feels 00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:33.420 very left -field, but it's an area that we've 00:53:33.420 --> 00:53:35.679 sort of looked into at the moment. It plays into 00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:39.980 the city side of things, but it's, you know, 00:53:39.980 --> 00:53:42.179 it's these really intentional spaces like Stratford 00:53:42.179 --> 00:53:44.880 Place. And we've been doing some work with Lenleys 00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:47.420 on what an innovation district is and bringing 00:53:47.420 --> 00:53:50.340 that really is kind of a microcosm of bringing 00:53:50.340 --> 00:53:53.199 work and life and innovation together in one 00:53:53.199 --> 00:53:56.440 place and there's really amazing projects. I 00:53:56.440 --> 00:53:58.500 think that could be quite an interesting deep 00:53:58.500 --> 00:54:01.420 dive into what an innovation district even looks 00:54:01.420 --> 00:54:04.500 like and what that is. Great. That sounds really 00:54:04.500 --> 00:54:06.659 good. Not one that we thought of. Thank you. 00:54:06.659 --> 00:54:08.280 Thank you so much for being here today and for 00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:11.639 taking time out of your trip to see us. People 00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:15.760 can find me at worktechacademy .com. That is 00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:17.840 where all our research is housed. That is how 00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:21.300 you can get in touch. And it's a great kind of 00:54:21.960 --> 00:54:23.880 breeding ground for some of these subjects that 00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:26.840 we've spoken about today. Amazing. Perfect. Thank 00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:30.239 you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Really enjoyed 00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:33.239 this. Bye. And thank you to everyone for joining 00:54:33.239 --> 00:54:35.559 us. We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you have 00:54:35.559 --> 00:54:37.800 any work is weird moments to share, please find 00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:40.099 us on LinkedIn and let us know what they were. 00:54:40.559 --> 00:54:42.440 In the meantime, have a wonderfully great week 00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:43.920 and we look forward to seeing you next time.