บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Sunday Conversation: Al Milgrom, Pt.2

00:01:57.299 --> 00:01:58.799 Oh, I thought you said Woody wasn't a good inker. 34 00:01:59.019 --> 00:02:01.920 Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He 35 00:02:01.939 --> 00:02:04.510 was a good. Yeah, you must have. He was a 36 00:02:04.510 --> 00:02:05.870 spectacular inker. 37 00:02:05.890 --> 00:02:06.890 Yeah. 38 00:02:07.489 --> 00:02:12.990 You know, but he was not above swiping. And I 39 00:02:13.030 --> 00:02:17.930 just chastised Buckler for swiping. But Woody swiped like nobody's business. 40 00:02:18.250 --> 00:02:22.000 And Larry Hama, who we know is a brilliant writer 41 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:26.020 and a very good artist also. Yeah. And a terrific 42 00:02:26.060 --> 00:02:32.159 storyteller in his drawing. Agreed. He put together this famous 43 00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:36.939 or infamous list. He put together a page of 22 44 00:02:36.939 --> 00:02:42.530 panels that always work. Yes. And he put together... It's 45 00:02:42.590 --> 00:02:46.580 all Wally Wood stuff. And it shows... it's, it's a close, 46 00:02:46.659 --> 00:02:50.219 it's a closeup, but two, two headshots, uh, you know, 47 00:02:50.620 --> 00:02:54.580 a head facing ahead, a silhouette, you know, or a, 48 00:02:54.750 --> 00:02:57.270 or a figure framed in a window, uh, in a 49 00:02:57.289 --> 00:03:01.110 window frame or, uh, a vignette panel where there's no, 50 00:03:01.129 --> 00:03:03.409 there's no panel border, but it's a figure like a 51 00:03:03.469 --> 00:03:06.289 dot three, a bit of a three quarters down shot 52 00:03:06.349 --> 00:03:09.009 of the figure just standing there often with Woody, they'd 53 00:03:09.030 --> 00:03:13.500 be casting a shadow, but no, no, uh, border around it. Um, 54 00:03:14.129 --> 00:03:17.310 To show depth, there'd be somebody in the foreground with 55 00:03:17.870 --> 00:03:21.969 blacks being shadows across them. And then in the middle ground, 56 00:03:22.009 --> 00:03:24.710 there'd be somebody coming out of a door, and they'd 57 00:03:24.750 --> 00:03:27.569 be sort of almost a white figure framed in the 58 00:03:27.610 --> 00:03:30.389 black doorway. And then there'd be a third level in 59 00:03:30.409 --> 00:03:35.009 the farther distance. And you look at them. Oh, another 60 00:03:35.090 --> 00:03:38.280 one is like hand pointing in from off panel. So 61 00:03:38.289 --> 00:03:40.539 you'd have a big hand in the foreground pointing to... 62 00:03:41.060 --> 00:03:47.310 whatever the subject was a figure, an object, whatever. Um, and, and, uh, 63 00:03:48.210 --> 00:03:50.990 and there are 22 of them, 22 panels that always work. 64 00:03:51.150 --> 00:03:54.650 And by God, they did always work. They were, they 65 00:03:54.689 --> 00:03:59.389 were terrific, you know, little shortcuts to storytelling that you, 66 00:03:59.430 --> 00:04:01.129 you know, if you ever, if you ever got stuck, 67 00:04:01.169 --> 00:04:02.830 you go to that, you go to that sheet and 68 00:04:02.870 --> 00:04:06.349 you take one. I'll do this one. That'll work. 69 00:04:07.250 --> 00:04:10.759 Um, so, uh, No, thank God for social media, because 70 00:04:10.849 --> 00:04:13.729 I've seen those things on Twitter and Facebook a million 71 00:04:13.770 --> 00:04:15.430 times in the last 20 years. 72 00:04:15.569 --> 00:04:18.769 I know. I had a photocopy of it somewhere, Ron, many, 73 00:04:18.810 --> 00:04:22.990 many years ago. Now it's sunk into the morass that 74 00:04:23.050 --> 00:04:25.459 is my house. But, yeah. 75 00:04:25.620 --> 00:04:31.259 Boy, you know, getting back to the subject, I went 76 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:36.660 to work for Murphy. We, you know, Charlene and I 77 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:39.339 went out to Buckler's Place. We came in, we spent 78 00:04:39.379 --> 00:04:45.170 the weekend to get this man thing job done. And 79 00:04:45.189 --> 00:04:48.250 Starlin was drawing pages and Buckler was laying out pages 80 00:04:48.290 --> 00:04:52.129 that I was tightening up. And I don't remember how 81 00:04:52.189 --> 00:04:55.050 many I actually worked on. But as we were leaving, 82 00:04:56.490 --> 00:04:58.230 Rich came to the door. He says, well, gosh, you 83 00:04:58.250 --> 00:05:02.790 guys really saved me, you know, saved my ass. And, 84 00:05:02.810 --> 00:05:04.410 you know, what can I do to repay you? 85 00:05:04.470 --> 00:05:06.839 How can I, you know, how can I? We turned 86 00:05:06.860 --> 00:05:09.800 the favor and Starlin said, hey, sometime when I'm, you know, 87 00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:13.199 when I'm behind the, you know, the eighth ball on 88 00:05:13.220 --> 00:05:16.930 a deadline, you can help me out. And Rich said, oh, OK. So, 89 00:05:17.310 --> 00:05:20.069 you know, Jim didn't even charge him for, you know, 90 00:05:20.089 --> 00:05:23.230 like for the work he did. And I said, yeah, 91 00:05:23.670 --> 00:05:27.509 he just did it as a favor. And and I said, well, listen, Rich, 92 00:05:27.529 --> 00:05:29.889 you know, just pay me my five bucks a page. 93 00:05:29.949 --> 00:05:34.649 That was our working arrangement. And, you know, and, you know, 94 00:05:34.670 --> 00:05:36.930 I don't remember how many it was. He, you know, 95 00:05:36.949 --> 00:05:38.939 whatever I had done on the K's are he still 96 00:05:38.980 --> 00:05:42.040 hadn't paid me for yet. So I said, just add 97 00:05:42.069 --> 00:05:44.540 that to my total. And it came to, like, I 98 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:47.720 think I said, a total of 12 pages between that 99 00:05:47.819 --> 00:05:51.079 and the K's are. So he owed me 60 bucks. 100 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:56.600 And and I said, listen, Rich. You know, Murphy Anderson 101 00:05:56.680 --> 00:05:58.800 offered me a job to work as his background guy, 102 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.040 and I'm going to take it. And he looked at 103 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:06.209 me like a guest. And he said, well, you know, why? 104 00:06:06.490 --> 00:06:08.589 Why would you do that? And I said, well, look, 105 00:06:08.610 -->

00:06:10.529 I've been working for you like for two months now. 106 00:06:12.730 --> 00:06:16.370 We've only done 12 pages together. I haven't gotten paid 107 00:06:16.410 --> 00:06:19.329 for any of them yet. Oh, well, I got a voucher. 108 00:06:19.370 --> 00:06:22.149 I said, yeah, yeah, okay. And I said, so, you know, 109 00:06:22.689 --> 00:06:24.779 Jim did you a favor. You and I have a 110 00:06:24.829 --> 00:06:28.279 working agreement. So just, you know, you'll just pay me, 111 00:06:28.339 --> 00:06:30.879 but I'm going to go to work And he said 112 00:06:30.930 --> 00:06:34.810 he had the gall to say to me, well, but 113 00:06:34.870 --> 00:06:38.829 I can teach you a lot more than Murphy Anderson. And, 114 00:06:38.870 --> 00:06:40.610 you know, Rich had been in the business for all 115 00:06:40.629 --> 00:06:44.800 of six months now. And here's Murphy Anderson, a very solid, 116 00:06:44.889 --> 00:06:48.879 well-established pro. And I kind of looked at him like, 117 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:53.879 are you mental? But what I said was, well, you know, 118 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.750 maybe you could. But, you know, I know with him, 119 00:06:57.819 --> 00:07:01.310 I'll be getting steady work. And so, so he, I 120 00:07:01.509 --> 00:07:05.089 think he was, you know, he was probably upset at 121 00:07:05.129 --> 00:07:08.670 the notion of not having to do the work himself. Um, 122 00:07:09.329 --> 00:07:11.209 and I, and, and I did, I went, I went 123 00:07:11.250 --> 00:07:14.250 to the, there was a sulling con, uh, in the 124 00:07:14.300 --> 00:07:16.620 city and it was must've been, I guess, in July 125 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:21.120 of 72. And, uh, and after the, uh, holiday weekend, 126 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:25.519 I went, I went over to, uh, DC and I, I'm, 127 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:28.050 I'm sure I must've called first. And I said, Hey, look, um, 128 00:07:29.139 --> 00:07:31.310 You know, I think I'm going to take you up 129 00:07:31.370 --> 00:07:33.389 on your offer, Murphy, and come work for you. He says, great. 130 00:07:33.990 --> 00:07:38.569 So I just come in on the next working day, 131 00:07:38.610 --> 00:07:42.240 and I went into D.C. I was living on Staten 132 00:07:42.300 --> 00:07:45.399 Island at the time with Starlin and Steve Skates, the writer, 133 00:07:45.420 --> 00:07:53.560 and Bill DeBay, the guy who was Buckler's other assistant 134 00:07:53.660 --> 00:07:57.730 at the time, but he was the editor at Warren Publications. 135 00:07:58.490 --> 00:08:02.509 And I was replacing Mike Friedrich, who had been, you know, 136 00:08:02.550 --> 00:08:05.069 who had just gotten a toehold in the industry and 137 00:08:05.129 --> 00:08:07.540 hated New York. He was from California and he wanted 138 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:09.819 to go back out west. And he said, well, I'm 139 00:08:09.860 --> 00:08:12.060 established now. I'm just going to go back home and 140 00:08:12.100 --> 00:08:15.399 work through the mails. And so

it was a four 141 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:21.540 bedroom arrangement. Some guy had built four bedrooms over his 142 00:08:21.579 --> 00:08:27.290 garage on Staten Island. So I replaced Friedrich in that 143 00:08:27.449 --> 00:08:32.879 cadre and I reported for work at D.C. And I 144 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:35.980 sat down next to Murphy. I brought some, you know, 145 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:39.529 my art supplies with me and he opened up his 146 00:08:39.789 --> 00:08:43.710 attache case and pulled out a bunch of Kurt Swan 147 00:08:43.769 --> 00:08:46.389 Superman pages and handed a bunch of them over to 148 00:08:46.409 --> 00:08:48.360 me and said, OK, get to work. And I went, oh, 149 00:08:48.460 --> 00:08:52.840 I'm an ominous. And he said, before you start, Alan, 150 00:08:52.860 --> 00:08:56.860 I just want to tell you the two rules of inking. 151 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:01.200 I said, okay, whoa, good, good. I need some instruction. 152 00:09:01.779 --> 00:09:05.240 He says, number one, we're paid to ink, not think. 153 00:09:06.340 --> 00:09:12.500 And number two, when in doubt, black it out. And 154 00:09:13.659 --> 00:09:15.450 I said, wait a minute, let me write these down. 155 00:09:15.570 --> 00:09:18.870 I didn't. So I thought that was funny, you know, 156 00:09:18.889 --> 00:09:22.340 because of course, Well, first of all, there was never 157 00:09:22.379 --> 00:09:27.000 a more thoughtful inker than Murphy. He overthought, if anything, 158 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:32.440 everything on the page. And he did this beautiful, meticulous rendering, 159 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:37.500 which somehow managed to make everybody look good. He was 160 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:42.240 his own version of Wally Wood. We mentioned the various 161 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:45.159 people that he was known for inking at that period. 162 00:09:46.620 --> 00:09:51.450 you know, Gil and Carmine and Bernie, I mean, Mike Sikowsky. 163 00:09:53.129 --> 00:09:56.330 And he was doing, inking some Irv Novick on Batman 164 00:09:56.370 --> 00:09:57.750 at the time also. 165 00:09:57.769 --> 00:09:58.090 Okay. 166 00:09:58.730 --> 00:10:02.220 And everything was... he got done with it, it looked great. 167 00:10:02.740 --> 00:10:05.419 And it had like, you know, it looked more dimensional 168 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:09.639 because his approach to rendering, he would go around the form. 169 00:10:09.700 --> 00:10:12.830 It was, you know, very beautiful. Um, as opposed to, 170 00:10:12.850 --> 00:10:16.330 I think Joe Giella, who rendered sort of with the 171 00:10:16.389 --> 00:10:19.379 form instead of around the form, um, Uh, I always thought, 172 00:10:19.500 --> 00:10:22.259 I thought that Joe was a terrific anchor, but his stuff, 173 00:10:22.340 --> 00:10:25.159 I thought tended to look a little flatter than, uh, 174 00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:28.960 Murphy's did. Um, but he was certainly, uh, you know, 175 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:31.059 and he was very much in the, in the

DC 176 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:34.480 house style was yellow and Murphy too, to a certain extent, 177 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:38.830 you know, they had, um, um, they had, uh, those 178 00:10:38.870 --> 00:10:44.330 two guys, they had Bernie Sachs, they had Frank Giaquoia, uh, 179 00:10:44.830 --> 00:10:47.950 He and Giela often did a lot of work together 180 00:10:47.970 --> 00:10:53.990 because Frank always needed a crutch. He needed somebody to 181 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:57.519 lean on to get any work done. Later, he worked 182 00:10:57.559 --> 00:11:02.879 a lot with Esposito. They had the Berry brothers at 183 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:07.799 one time or another, Seymour and Dan Berry. By then, 184 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:11.639 I think they both graduated to syndicated strips. One was 185 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:15.200 doing I think Dan was doing Flash Gordon and Cy 186 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:18.370 was doing The Phantom. So two of the very biggest 187 00:11:18.539 --> 00:11:23.070 action syndicated strips. And they did those for many, many 188 00:11:23.110 --> 00:11:26.950 years and so on. So, yeah. So, you know, and 189 00:11:26.970 --> 00:11:31.450 Murphy was a great and patient teacher. And and among 190 00:11:31.529 --> 00:11:37.519 other things, he and I shared a love of puns. So, 191 00:11:38.059 --> 00:11:40.019 you know, Murphy would say, you know, he'd come in, 192 00:11:40.700 --> 00:11:47.019 I'd come in, he'd say, hey, Alan, you know, Tarzan, 193 00:11:48.379 --> 00:11:51.039 you know, he went to the bad place. He died 194 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:53.120 and he went to the bad place. And so they 195 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:59.179 gave his punishment was, Tarzan, you now have to paint 196 00:11:59.299 --> 00:12:03.049 stripes on all the wildlife that has the, you know, 197 00:12:03.710 --> 00:12:06.809 the natural camouflage on the zebras and on the tigers. 198 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:09.519 And he says, so, Alan, the moral of the story 199 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:13.659 is now Tarzan stripes forever. You know, a play on 200 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:18.139 stars and stripes forever, the military. So, you know, and 201 00:12:18.220 --> 00:12:20.399 I just would, you know, and I'd go, oh, Murphy, 202 00:12:20.419 --> 00:12:22.340 you know. And then I'd try to come up with 203 00:12:22.460 --> 00:12:24.429 one to, you know, to match him or top him. 204 00:12:24.970 --> 00:12:27.070 So we had a good time. And as a result, 205 00:12:27.110 --> 00:12:31.590 now you're speaking to the former editorial. And when I 206 00:12:31.649 --> 00:12:34.409 go to shows these days, I had T-shirts made up 207 00:12:34.909 --> 00:12:41.269 where it reads conventional. And I'm also very whimsical and 208 00:12:41.330 --> 00:12:46.200 sometimes comical. And when I look at a portfolio for 209 00:12:46.220 --> 00:12:55.480 a kid, I'm sometimes very critical. Fantastic, man. That's hilarious. Yeah, 210 00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:59.830 my name lends itself to a wide assortment of horrifying puns. 211 00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:03.389 Honestly, these little annoying stories were great, but I wanted 212 00:13:03.409 --> 00:13:08.129 to ask you about Jim Shooter as a writer. because 213 00:13:08.210 --> 00:13:10.929 you worked on Korvac. And did you edit Jim as 214 00:13:10.970 --> 00:13:14.289 well before he became, or even while he was editor-in-chief? 215 00:13:14.330 --> 00:13:15.470 Were you his editor at times? 216 00:13:16.370 --> 00:13:19.620 You know, I don't recall ever being his editor, no. 217 00:13:20.419 --> 00:13:25.080 He was, of course, he was the writer and I 218 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:30.700 suppose de facto editor on the second Secret Wars series 219 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:31.600 that I penciled. 220 00:13:32.379 --> 00:13:33.580 Right, that's right, too. 221 00:13:33.620 --> 00:13:36.730 Yes, indeed. And he was not the editor of record. 222 00:13:37.299 --> 00:13:41.259 But I believe, for all intents and purposes, he was, 223 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:45.539 you know, the be-all and end-all on that thing. I mean, 224 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:50.320 he might deny that because, you know, he believed in 225 00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:53.700 the whole approach of having an editorial staff and having 226 00:13:53.740 --> 00:14:00.240 an objective editor, you know, overseeing everybody's work, which I 227 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:04.960 think is perfectly reasonable. But... But, you know, nobody wanted 228 00:14:04.980 --> 00:14:10.919 to mess with him. So, you know, so he did that. 229 00:14:10.940 --> 00:14:17.659 I don't remember being his editor. You know, you can 230 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:21.000 prove me wrong. I won't say I wasn't, but I don't, 231 00:14:21.899 --> 00:14:24.679 you know, I don't have any recollection of it. 232 00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:28.259 Working with him as a writer and everything, and in 233 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:29.620 our capacity then. 234 00:14:29.899 --> 00:14:32.139 First of all, I thought he was a very good writer, 235 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:36.259 a very capable writer. And, you know, the proof of 236 00:14:36.279 --> 00:14:39.379 the pudding, he started as a professional comic book writer 237 00:14:39.419 --> 00:14:44.179 at the age of 13 or 14. He sent stories, 238 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:47.480 ideas into Mort Weisinger at DC Comics. 239 00:14:48.100 --> 00:14:48.320 Sure. 240 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:53.340 And Weisinger, who I don't know and never met, but, 241 00:14:56.850 --> 00:15:01.129 you know, thought he had some really good ideas. And Jim, 242 00:15:01.190 --> 00:15:04.509 at the time, I think he said that Marvel was 243 00:15:04.570 --> 00:15:08.830 doing much more interesting comic books, but he liked the 244 00:15:08.889 --> 00:15:16.519 DC stuff because he'd grown up on it. And he 245 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:21.580 would send in scripts and they would be... He would 246 00:15:21.620 --> 00:15:25.320 thumbnail the whole story. He would do drawings to show 247

00:15:26.019 --> 00:15:30.220 how he was envisioning the storytelling going. And, you know, 248 00:15:30.460 --> 00:15:35.899 I mean, it's astonishing, you know, that anybody can get 249 00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:40.039 a job writing comic books as a professional. But somebody 250 00:15:40.059 --> 00:15:44.159 at that age, it's really, I mean, he was really 251 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:49.299 something of a phenom. And I learned actually not too 252 00:15:49.379 --> 00:15:54.090 long ago before he passed that he also had won 253 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:58.289 some sort of art contest or art competition in New York. 254 00:16:00.110 --> 00:16:03.389 I don't remember what grade it would have been, but 255 00:16:03.490 --> 00:16:09.769 either middle school or high school, he won some competition, 256 00:16:10.149 --> 00:16:12.529 which would have entitled him to go to some art 257 00:16:12.570 --> 00:16:15.529 school there, I guess with a scholarship. But he turned 258 00:16:15.570 --> 00:16:21.700 it down because his family was not well off. And 259 00:16:22.259 --> 00:16:25.940 some of the writing he was doing for DC was 260 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:30.700 really going to help pay for the family's you know, expenses, 261 00:16:31.059 --> 00:16:34.259 you know, the house, the food, you know, a car, 262 00:16:34.299 --> 00:16:37.379 whatever it was. He was everyday life. Yeah. He was 263 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:39.659 one of the providers. Yeah. He was, yeah. He may 264 00:16:39.710 --> 00:16:43.490 have been the main provider, I believe. So, so anyway, 265 00:16:44.570 --> 00:16:46.269 so he had to turn down, I would have been 266 00:16:46.309 --> 00:16:49.169 interesting if he, if he'd taken up the art scholarship and, 267 00:16:49.610 --> 00:16:53.289 and gone to school for, for, for drawing or painting. 268 00:16:53.509 --> 00:16:54.710 Had you seen any of his art? 269 00:16:55.350 --> 00:16:58.730 I have seen only stuff that he did. When he 270 00:16:58.769 --> 00:17:03.789 was at Marvel. Okay. Because occasionally he thought, I've got 271 00:17:03.809 --> 00:17:06.769 to show everybody what I'm talking about. Because he had 272 00:17:06.789 --> 00:17:10.930 a lot of fairly strict rules about comic book storytelling. 273 00:17:11.769 --> 00:17:14.029 Some of which I think were valid and some of 274 00:17:14.089 --> 00:17:18.089 which I think were less valid. And we butted heads 275 00:17:18.269 --> 00:17:20.759 on them a number of times. The thing I will 276 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:24.200 say about Jim is I found him easy to get 277 00:17:24.259 --> 00:17:28.309 along with and easy to reason with. I would go 278 00:17:28.390 --> 00:17:30.369 in there if I thought he was wrong about something, 279 00:17:30.390 --> 00:17:33.490 I'd go in and discuss it. You know, I never 280 00:17:33.549 --> 00:17:35.970 went in and said, you know, listen, you giant bonehead, 281 00:17:35.990 --> 00:17:38.470 you don't know what you're talking about. But I would say, listen, Jim, 282 00:17:39.029 --> 00:17:41.069 I think that, you know, this approach that you're taking, 283 00:17:41.470 --> 00:17:44.089 it could be done, you know, you know, it could 284 00:17:44.109 --> 00:17:45.829 be done this way or this way. And he said, no, 285 00:17:45.890 --> 00:17:48.069 I'm not saying there's only one way to do something, 286 00:17:48.849 --> 00:17:53.599 but it has to fulfill these requirements, you know. And yeah, 287 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:56.619 but I'm not. But but so he said the right 288 00:17:56.660 --> 00:18:00.369 thing often. But, you know, in his heart of hearts, 289 00:18:00.509 --> 00:18:03.349 I don't think he believed that. I believe he thought 290 00:18:03.410 --> 00:18:05.650 his way was the absolutely right way and maybe the 291 00:18:05.730 --> 00:18:11.450 only way. And, you know, he had rules about writing, 292 00:18:11.549 --> 00:18:16.130 about penciling, about inking, probably about lettering and coloring, too. 293 00:18:16.990 --> 00:18:20.710 And you could discuss it with him and you could 294 00:18:21.369 --> 00:18:25.609 disagree with him. And he might be reasonable in the 295 00:18:25.650 --> 00:18:28.079 way he discussed it with you. But then at the 296 00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:30.720 end of the day, uh, he would snap back into 297 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:35.279 his original position. And, uh, so, so, you know, outside of, 298 00:18:35.410 --> 00:18:39.390 of the, outside of an entertaining little debate for a while, you, 299 00:18:39.549 --> 00:18:41.349 you might not have made a lot of progress with him. 300 00:18:42.230 --> 00:18:43.109 Um, I'm with you. 301 00:18:43.130 --> 00:18:43.549 Yeah. 302 00:18:44.170 --> 00:18:45.009 And, uh, funny. 303 00:18:45.210 --> 00:18:49.250 Yeah. I'll, I'll give you, uh, any, but again, I, 304 00:18:50.579 --> 00:18:52.420 it may be because I had been an editor at 305 00:18:52.460 --> 00:18:55.599 DC for, for the year first before he hired me. Uh, 306 00:18:57.069 --> 00:18:59.970 I think I and Larry Hama, who had also been 307 00:18:59.990 --> 00:19:03.369 an editor up at DC at that same period, and Wheezy, 308 00:19:03.410 --> 00:19:07.670 who was an editor by this time at Warren Publications. Oh, yeah. 309 00:19:08.259 --> 00:19:10.460 He hired the three of us, and we all had 310 00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:17.539 editorial experience. And I think he treated us more as 311 00:19:17.660 --> 00:19:22.609 equals than the guys who he hired, who came in 312 00:19:23.009 --> 00:19:27.049 under him for the first time, like, Grunewald and Salatrop 313 00:19:27.809 --> 00:19:34.900 and who else was up there? I can't keep track. Anyway. Yeah, 314 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:38.319 I hear you, man. No, no, no. Was Craig Anderson, 315 00:19:38.339 --> 00:19:39.960 was he at DC or Marvel with me? 316 00:19:39.980 --> 00:19:43.450 I think he was there. I couldn't say. No, I 317 00:19:43.470 --> 00:19:46.150 was thinking of a Spider-Man editor, and I can't think 318

00:19:46.190 --> 00:19:47.170 of his name right now. 319 00:19:48.369 --> 00:19:48.990 Well, there was. 320 00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:52.309 Edward Southrop, obviously, you know, is one of those guys. 321 00:19:52.789 --> 00:19:56.890 Yeah, well, Roger Stern, was he on staff for a 322 00:19:56.910 --> 00:20:00.710 while as an editor? I'm not sure. I don't remember. 323 00:20:00.730 --> 00:20:03.950 I feel like he might have been. Yeah, anyway. But 324 00:20:03.990 --> 00:20:09.230 so I think that gave me more... cachet with Jim 325 00:20:09.470 --> 00:20:13.410 than some of the guys he hired and were groomed. 326 00:20:13.789 --> 00:20:17.960 Yeah. And I mean groomed in a positive way, not 327 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:20.700 the way, unfortunately, the word groomed has changed. 328 00:20:21.059 --> 00:20:24.079 But yeah, he trained his editors. 329 00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:25.859 Yeah, the young people he trained his editors. 330 00:20:26.140 --> 00:20:29.079 Yeah, so I think he felt like they should, having 331 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:35.039 been completely instructed and raised by him, should have done it. 332 00:20:35.430 --> 00:20:38.710 They should have known what he wanted. And I, and I, 333 00:20:38.930 --> 00:20:42.210 you know, I said, look, Jim, they're not, I think 334 00:20:42.250 --> 00:20:44.029 he thought, and if it didn't come out the way 335 00:20:44.069 --> 00:20:46.450 he thought it should, I think he felt like they were, 336 00:20:46.769 --> 00:20:52.279 they were purposely ignoring him or, or, or defying him. 337 00:20:53.220 --> 00:20:55.579 And I said, I said, no, Jim, you know, words are, 338 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.819 words are not a perfect vehicle. You want them to 339 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:02.859 be able to read your mind and execute exactly the 340 00:21:02.900 --> 00:21:05.559 way you would. They're trying, everybody up here is trying 341 00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:08.930 to do what you want them to do, but there's 342 00:21:08.990 --> 00:21:12.750 a certain disconnect between what you say and how we 343 00:21:12.809 --> 00:21:15.869 interpret it. And he said, no, that can't be right. 344 00:21:15.930 --> 00:21:19.950 I said, well, I think it is. And we'd have 345 00:21:19.990 --> 00:21:22.910 the discussion and I would get nowhere, but at least 346 00:21:22.970 --> 00:21:25.940 I had my say. I'll give you an example. I'll 347 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:29.140 give you an example of Jim not at his best. 348 00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:33.140 And he was probably at his best early on when 349 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:35.930 he was getting all the books back on schedule. which 350 00:21:36.009 --> 00:21:40.289 was a, you know, Herculean task. And we can talk 351 00:21:40.329 --> 00:21:43.269 about that later if you want. But one time we're 352 00:21:43.289 --> 00:21:48.990 all sitting in some editor's office up at Marvel. And 353 00:21:49.009 --> 00:21:52.150 I don't know whether I was still on staff or not. 354 00:21:52.269 --> 00:21:56.650 I probably still was. Or why would I be sitting 355 00:21:56.670 --> 00:21:59.329 around there schmoozing in the middle of the day? So 356 00:21:59.390 --> 00:22:04.170 instead of home freelancing. So there were several of us 357 00:22:04.549 --> 00:22:09.369 and he... Comes into the, looms into the doorway. And 358 00:22:09.410 --> 00:22:11.750 I say looms because he was a huge man. He 359 00:22:11.789 --> 00:22:16.589 was 6'7. Oh, yeah. And a very intimidating physical presence. 360 00:22:18.930 --> 00:22:23.190 And he's holding a comic book in his hand. And 361 00:22:23.230 --> 00:22:25.589 he's gesturing to it. And he looks at the editor 362 00:22:25.609 --> 00:22:29.450 and he says, hey, so-and-so. And I don't honestly remember 363 00:22:29.470 --> 00:22:32.230 which editor it was. So I'm not trying to save 364 00:22:32.289 --> 00:22:36.579 anybody's feelings here. I just don't remember. And he said, 365 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:40.460 if you don't know what's wrong with this comic, then 366 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:45.440 we've got a problem. And everybody's sort of jaws just dropped. 367 00:22:46.230 --> 00:22:51.710 And then he, like a will-o'-the-wisp, he was gone. And 368 00:22:52.369 --> 00:22:54.890 the editor, like all the blood drained out of his face. 369 00:22:55.450 --> 00:23:00.140 Because his boss just came in and, you know, made 370 00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:03.970 this outrageous statement. And I said... You know, I think 371 00:23:04.009 --> 00:23:05.950 I hung around. We chatted a little bit more. I said, 372 00:23:05.970 --> 00:23:09.450 don't worry, he'll get over it. And I went down 373 00:23:09.490 --> 00:23:12.089 to Jim's office and I said, Jim, have you got 374 00:23:12.130 --> 00:23:13.589 a minute? And he said, yeah, sure, Al, what's up? 375 00:23:14.059 --> 00:23:17.380 I said, listen, I just want to explain something to you. 376 00:23:17.430 --> 00:23:20.940 I said, first of all, you are a big guy. 377 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:23.579 You're aware of this, you know? He says, yeah. He says, 378 00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:26.480 I said, when you come into somebody's office and we're 379 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:29.519 all sitting and you're standing there, all six foot seven 380 00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:33.930 of you, and you're clearly not happy. I said, it's 381 00:23:34.009 --> 00:23:37.269 a chilling tone that you're setting right there. I said, 382 00:23:37.930 --> 00:23:40.349 and when you point at a comic and you say, 383 00:23:40.690 --> 00:23:43.069 if you don't see what's wrong with this, we've got 384 00:23:43.089 --> 00:23:46.150 a problem. So there's two options there. Neither one is 385 00:23:46.190 --> 00:23:49.769 good for the editor. Either you know what's wrong with it, 386 00:23:50.099 --> 00:23:53.660 but you'll let it get printed anyway, which that means 387 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:57.000 you're just defying you. You know, he's defying you. Or 388 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.539 you don't know what's

wrong with it, in which case, 389 00:24:01.430 --> 00:24:03.289 why did he hire you? If you're such an idiot, 390 00:24:03.309 --> 00:24:07.509 you can't follow his, you know, his edicts. Right. I said, it's, 391 00:24:07.650 --> 00:24:09.670 it's like, it's like, you know, did you stop beating 392 00:24:09.690 --> 00:24:12.849 your wife yet? You know, if you answered, yeah, it 393 00:24:12.890 --> 00:24:14.630 means you used to beat her. If you answer, no, 394 00:24:14.670 --> 00:24:16.470 you're still beating her. It's, you can't, it's a no 395 00:24:16.490 --> 00:24:21.130 win question and answer. So I said, I said, try 396 00:24:21.170 --> 00:24:23.509 to be a little more diplomatic. And, and I said, 397 00:24:23.549 --> 00:24:25.569 and don't, you know, and don't do it in front 398 00:24:25.609 --> 00:24:28.950 of four other guys, you know, have the guy come 399 00:24:28.970 --> 00:24:31.920 down to your office and, I've seen you do it, 400 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:36.160 discuss it rationally, say, look, I'm not happy with this issue, 401 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:39.480 and here's why. And, you know, give the guy a 402 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:44.099 chance to understand what you're looking for, why it's wrong, and, 403 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:46.359 you know, and I'm sure he'll be happy to try 404 00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:49.559 and correct it in future issues. You know, this one's published. 405 00:24:49.779 --> 00:24:51.440 It's too late. You know, there's nothing you can do 406 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:54.430 about it. And he said, you know, Al, you've got 407 00:24:54.450 --> 00:24:57.150 a good point. I really, I shouldn't have phrased it 408 00:24:57.190 --> 00:24:59.529 that way. And I said, you know, I said, I said, yeah, listen, 409 00:24:59.549 --> 00:25:03.269 just everybody's on your side here. Just, uh, you know, just, uh, 410 00:25:03.329 --> 00:25:07.250 just try to couch it in more, uh, gentle phrasing, 411 00:25:07.329 --> 00:25:09.430 you know, that kind of thing. And he, you know, 412 00:25:09.490 --> 00:25:12.309 he said, yeah, good, you know, good point. Thanks, Al. Uh, 413 00:25:12.369 --> 00:25:14.130 you know, I'm not sure it made a difference. I'm 414 00:25:14.170 --> 00:25:17.920 not sure it changed them one iota, but he, you know, 415 00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:21.480 he accepted it in, in good graces and, uh, and, uh, 416 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:23.799 you know, and he took it as a sincere, uh, 417 00:25:24.900 --> 00:25:28.670 you know, uh, point of view you know hey you 418 00:25:28.710 --> 00:25:30.730 can you can do the job you don't have to 419 00:25:30.789 --> 00:25:33.490 bully everybody you can just hey guys we're all on 420 00:25:33.509 --> 00:25:36.430 the same team here so anyway so that was one 421 00:25:36.450 --> 00:25:42.089 of my shooter stories I have I have others I 422 00:25:43.190 --> 00:25:45.849 at one point I was I was on staff and 423 00:25:45.869 --> 00:25:50.109 I was doing still doing an inordinate amount of freelance 424 00:25:50.210 --> 00:25:53.569 while I was an editor so there I am at 425 00:25:53.609 --> 00:25:58.349 the office 40 hours a week give or take And evenings, weekends, 426 00:25:58.410 --> 00:26:03.049 and holidays, I'm still freelancing my brains out. And one 427 00:26:03.089 --> 00:26:06.269 of the things I did as an editor was I 428 00:26:06.549 --> 00:26:09.009 started doing a lot of the covers for the titles 429 00:26:09.230 --> 00:26:13.529 I was editing. I mean, I was a cover artist 430 00:26:13.589 --> 00:26:17.339 for Marvel. And I had been briefly a cover artist 431 00:26:17.410 --> 00:26:20.359 over at DC, and then DC hired me as an 432 00:26:20.410 --> 00:26:24.869 editor for almost exactly one year. prior to the DC 433 00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:27.349 implosion when, where they, you know, booted me right back 434 00:26:27.430 --> 00:26:31.009 out the door along with Larry Hama and, and 40% 435 00:26:31.009 --> 00:26:35.289 of their entire staff. So now, you know, Jim hired 436 00:26:35.390 --> 00:26:38.799 me and Larry to, to, you know, come work as 437 00:26:38.859 --> 00:26:42.440 editors at Marvel. And I was still freelancing my brains out. 438 00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:45.559 And one of the things I did was a lot 439 00:26:45.579 --> 00:26:49.059 of covers for my own books. And one day Hama 440 00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:52.180 came up and to me in my office, he was 441 00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:54.250 right next door. He said, Al, you know, you shouldn't 442 00:26:54.269 --> 00:26:58.569 be doing covers for your own books. And I said, uh, 443 00:26:58.650 --> 00:27:00.930 why do you say that, Larry? He says, well, it's 444 00:27:00.970 --> 00:27:06.750 a conflict of interest. And I said, well, Hmm. He says, yeah, 445 00:27:06.769 --> 00:27:09.690 cause you got nobody, you know, supervising you, you, you know, you're, 446 00:27:09.779 --> 00:27:12.670 you're doing the covers, you're accepting the covers. Nobody has 447 00:27:12.730 --> 00:27:15.680 any say over it. And I said, well, yeah, but 448 00:27:15.700 --> 00:27:17.319 I think I do pretty good covers. He goes, yeah, 449 00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:19.559 you do pretty good covers, but, but you know, you 450 00:27:19.579 --> 00:27:23.200 should really, you know, you should really have, uh, you know, 451 00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:26.250 a supervisor or something. And I, I thought about it 452 00:27:26.269 --> 00:27:30.809 and I said, well, I don't necessarily agree, but you know, 453 00:27:31.470 --> 00:27:33.849 I'm going to go, uh, take it up with Shooter. 454 00:27:33.869 --> 00:27:36.509 So I went down to his office and I said, Jim, 455 00:27:36.549 --> 00:27:38.349 I was just talking to Larry Hama and he said, 456 00:27:38.369 --> 00:27:41.410 I shouldn't do covers for my own books. And he said, 457 00:27:41.470 --> 00:27:43.410 why wouldn't you? And I said, well, that was sort 458 00:27:43.430 --> 00:27:46.650 of my position. Uh, you know, but Larry said he 459

00:27:46.690 --> 00:27:48.819 thought it was sort of a conflict of interest. And, uh, 460 00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:53.579 And nobody was supervising me. So I thought I'd, you know, 461 00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:57.210 being an honest, straightforward kind of guy, I thought I'd 462 00:27:57.230 --> 00:27:59.950 mention it to you and see what you thought. He goes, well, 463 00:28:00.150 --> 00:28:03.150 he has a point. He says, I think you've been 464 00:28:03.190 --> 00:28:06.210 doing terrific covers for us. And, you know, and I 465 00:28:06.250 --> 00:28:09.369 want you to continue because we think it's a selling point, 466 00:28:09.730 --> 00:28:12.079 you know. But I'll tell you what, from now on, 467 00:28:13.660 --> 00:28:16.980 before you do a cover, bring the cover sketch down 468 00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:19.509 to me. And I will act as, you know, your 469 00:28:19.549 --> 00:28:22.509 de facto editor and I'll approve it or reject it 470 00:28:22.569 --> 00:28:26.660 as I see fit. And I said, OK, great. And 471 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.559 I thought there was a perfectly reasonable solution. And then 472 00:28:30.579 --> 00:28:32.480 I could go back and tell Larry in your face. 473 00:28:32.500 --> 00:28:39.420 And I did. And I said, OK, Larry, now Shooter 474 00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:42.829 is going to supervise my coverage. OK, good. So he 475 00:28:42.849 --> 00:28:44.690 didn't really care one way or the other, Larry. I 476 00:28:44.730 --> 00:28:47.829 think he was just stirring the pot. But then from 477 00:28:47.869 --> 00:28:50.089 then on, I would go down and I'd show Jim 478 00:28:50.130 --> 00:28:54.650 my cover sketches. And often, I mean, I was doing 479 00:28:54.690 --> 00:28:59.089 a lot of work. And even in those days of 480 00:28:59.130 --> 00:29:02.670 my youth when I had a lot of energy, I 481 00:29:03.970 --> 00:29:08.130 couldn't keep up with all of it. And so sometimes 482 00:29:08.230 --> 00:29:12.460 I would do my cover sketch on the actual cover stock. 483 00:29:13.369 --> 00:29:15.869 Rather than, you know, Marvel had like smaller sheets of 484 00:29:15.930 --> 00:29:20.069 paper with the border and the cover layout on it, 485 00:29:20.140 --> 00:29:22.240 you know. And, you know, there'd be a place where 486 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:26.680 the UPC box would go and so on and so forth. 487 00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:29.880 Maybe they also had the, you know, the little like 488 00:29:30.180 --> 00:29:32.960 a blank corner box in the upper left-hand corner with 489 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:35.940 that Marvel Comics group across the top. So they had 490 00:29:36.009 --> 00:29:42.089 these little, uh, you know, bond paper, uh, uh, layout available. 491 00:29:42.970 --> 00:29:45.269 And I would often, I would do my cover sketches 492 00:29:45.430 --> 00:29:49.150 on those. Okay. And then I'd either, depending on my mood, 493 00:29:49.190 --> 00:29:51.549 I'd either eyeball them or I, I had a, an 494 00:29:51.609 --> 00:29:57.099 opaque

projector. Uh, brand name was artograph art. Oh, graph. And, um, 495 00:29:58.250 --> 00:30:01.009 And I could just trace them off onto the board. 496 00:30:02.250 --> 00:30:04.349 But I really, I always felt like I lost something 497 00:30:04.390 --> 00:30:09.369 in the process when I was lightboxing something or using 498 00:30:10.009 --> 00:30:14.210 the opaque projector. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you know, you 499 00:30:14.230 --> 00:30:16.170 could trace it off line for line and somehow it 500 00:30:16.190 --> 00:30:18.970 would lose a little of the spontaneity or something. I 501 00:30:18.990 --> 00:30:24.160 don't know. So I started doing my cover sketches on 502 00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:29.279 the boards and, you know, To different degrees of how tight. 503 00:30:29.339 --> 00:30:32.859 Maybe it was just a layout where you could see 504 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:35.140 where the figures were going to go. Sometimes it would 505 00:30:35.180 --> 00:30:38.519 be tighter than that. I tend to do gesture drawings. 506 00:30:39.059 --> 00:30:42.500 And so sometimes I'll do a more complete figure and 507 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:47.529 background and stuff like that. And so they would pay 508 00:30:47.609 --> 00:30:50.769 us $ 50 for a cover sketch. So if I did 509 00:30:50.809 --> 00:30:53.930 it on the actual board, I could save myself a 510 00:30:53.990 --> 00:30:57.910 step and still pay myself the extra $ 50. I never 511 00:30:57.990 --> 00:31:01.690 pointed that out to Jim. And I would take him 512 00:31:01.710 --> 00:31:04.009 down to the shooter, and I'd say, Jim, here's a 513 00:31:04.029 --> 00:31:06.210 layout for the Hulk cover. Here's a layout for the 514 00:31:06.250 --> 00:31:09.819 Defenders cover. And they look great. I'll go ahead. I 515 00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:14.380 don't think he ever questioned or rejected a single one 516 00:31:14.420 --> 00:31:16.779 of those that I did for him. And so in 517 00:31:16.819 --> 00:31:20.019 that respect, I found him extremely easy to work with 518 00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:23.450 because he was approving everything I did, which is the 519 00:31:23.490 --> 00:31:27.500 way I like it. Yeah. That's something John, that's something 520 00:31:27.539 --> 00:31:29.349 John Byrne and I have in common. You know, we 521 00:31:29.369 --> 00:31:32.509 don't want, we want everybody to say, great, keep it up, 522 00:31:32.609 --> 00:31:35.809 you know, and then leave us and leave me alone. So, um, 523 00:31:37.210 --> 00:31:38.529 so yeah, so we would do that. 524 00:31:38.990 --> 00:31:39.210 Yeah. 525 00:31:39.289 --> 00:31:43.099 Yeah. And, uh, great. Yeah. So I, I like that. And, 526 00:31:43.220 --> 00:31:46.420 and of course the reason I ended up drawing secret 527 00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:50.000 wars too, God knows, uh, that was a hard act 528 00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:54.190 to follow, uh, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, beautiful, beautiful work. 529 00:31:54.349 --> 00:31:58.519 And he did the first series, obviously. Well, they decided 530 00:31:58.539 --> 00:32:00.579 it was a big hit. They decided to do another one. 531 00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:08.539 And Sal Buscema did the first issue. And I can't 532 00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:12.569 remember if he did full pencils or just breakdowns. And 533 00:32:12.630 --> 00:32:16.569 for those who don't know, full pencils are nice, tight pencils. 534 00:32:16.630 --> 00:32:19.170 You could, if you ink them just exactly as they were, 535 00:32:19.869 --> 00:32:24.490 you'd have a nice, you know, professional comic book. Breakdowns 536 00:32:25.430 --> 00:32:30.289 are basically the coloring book version of full pencils. Everything 537 00:32:30.309 --> 00:32:34.430 would be outlined, but there wouldn't necessarily be any rendering, 538 00:32:34.490 --> 00:32:38.390 like no feathering with a brush, no cross hatching, and 539 00:32:38.470 --> 00:32:43.250 not necessarily any spotting of black areas. You could put, yeah, 540 00:32:43.269 --> 00:32:45.539 the shortcut in comics is if you put an X 541 00:32:46.170 --> 00:32:48.339 in the middle of an area, then that area should 542 00:32:48.380 --> 00:32:51.789 be black. blacked in and all the anchors, all the 543 00:32:51.849 --> 00:32:55.549 anchors know that is the, you know, is the, is 544 00:32:55.589 --> 00:32:56.809 the shorthand for, you. 545 00:32:56.730 --> 00:32:57.750 Know, exactly. 546 00:32:58.390 --> 00:33:04.069 Yeah. So, so I will say this, Sal did a 547 00:33:04.150 --> 00:33:09.019 perfectly fine job. It was a really nice Sal Biasema job, 548 00:33:09.940 --> 00:33:14.339 but Jim somehow found fault with it. And I think 549 00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:17.799 he wanted some changes. And I think Sal said, well, 550 00:33:18.089 --> 00:33:19.910 you know, I'm too old to be, you know, having 551 00:33:19.930 --> 00:33:23.690 to redraw stuff or, or words to that effect. I was, 552 00:33:23.710 --> 00:33:27.849 I don't ask him sometimes, but, uh, um, while I 553 00:33:27.869 --> 00:33:30.450 still can. And, uh, yeah, you know, but, but it 554 00:33:30.490 --> 00:33:34.839 was a perfectly fine job and, and honestly better than 555 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:37.180 what I ended up doing. Uh, I am not as 556 00:33:37.220 --> 00:33:40.980 good an artist as Sal Buscema and I never will be, but, um, 557 00:33:41.500 --> 00:33:44.220 but Jim was not pleased with the job and he wasn't, 558 00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:47.440 I think, pleased with Sal's response and, when he wanted, uh, 559 00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:51.549 changes or corrections, if you will. And, uh, and we were, 560 00:33:51.630 --> 00:33:54.410 I remember this because we were at the Marvel Christmas party, 561 00:33:54.890 --> 00:33:57.490 which was at the players club, which is a, which 562 00:33:57.549 --> 00:34:02.789 is a club for actors actually in Greenwich, uh, um, 563 00:34:03.009 --> 00:34:08.110 not Greenwich village. Wait a minute. Um, Oh, it's a 564 00:34:08.179 --> 00:34:13.599 park off of, uh, third and park

Avenue. What the 565 00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:18.219 hell is the name of that? Gramercy park, Gramercy park. Yes. Okay. 566 00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:23.659 It's got this nice little one block square park where 567 00:34:24.019 --> 00:34:26.610 only people from the neighborhood, they have to pay a 568 00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:29.659 fee and they can get a key to get into the, 569 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.909 you know, it's locked, this park. And you can't go 570 00:34:32.989 --> 00:34:35.610 on the grass in this park. It's, you know, they 571 00:34:35.630 --> 00:34:37.610 got a low fence that you're supposed to keep off it. 572 00:34:37.889 --> 00:34:41.789 So it's not a park in any reasonable sense of 573 00:34:41.829 --> 00:34:44.829 the word, but the rich people who live around there 574 00:34:45.829 --> 00:34:50.769 like it. having it and it's fairly exclusive and so on. 575 00:34:50.849 --> 00:34:52.429 It's not a good place to take little kids to 576 00:34:52.469 --> 00:34:56.010 play because they can only play on the concrete areas 577 00:34:56.050 --> 00:35:00.309 where you'll fall and skin your knees. Anyway, it's right 578 00:35:00.530 --> 00:35:05.440 off of Gramercy Park, the Players Club, and it faces it. 579 00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:09.940 It's for actors. I guess the idea was it was 580 00:35:09.980 --> 00:35:13.920 for actors who were traveling in from out of town 581 00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:16.880 And that gave them a place to stay if they 582 00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:20.699 needed one, if they were doing a short stint or 583 00:35:20.739 --> 00:35:23.320 if they were on Broadway, you know, blah, blah, blah. 584 00:35:23.500 --> 00:35:27.320 And it's a charming old brownstone, and it's full of 585 00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:31.019 portraits of famous actors. And some of the portraits are 586 00:35:31.059 --> 00:35:37.889 by James Montgomery Flagg. Yes, great artist. Amazing artist, yes. Yeah, 587 00:35:37.929 --> 00:35:41.769 terrific old-time illustrator. Did the portrait of Uncle Sam, Once You. 588 00:35:42.869 --> 00:35:49.760 Among others. And who was the other guy? Oh, I 589 00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:53.059 think he had one there. And who else? Oh, he 590 00:35:53.139 --> 00:35:54.739 used to... Everett Raymond Kinstler. 591 00:35:55.820 --> 00:35:56.239 Oh, sure. 592 00:35:56.260 --> 00:35:57.840 Great pulp artist. 593 00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:05.030 Absolutely. He also did comic book work. He drew a 594 00:36:05.219 --> 00:36:09.989 lot of stories and covers and inside title pages for 595 00:36:10.110 --> 00:36:15.119 Avon Comics and others. And beautiful stuff, beautiful fine line, 596 00:36:16.659 --> 00:36:19.199 you know, rendering with good use of blacks. I mean, 597 00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.219 you know, could you tell from that he was going 598 00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:25.260 to go on to become the preeminent portrait artist in 599 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:26.849 the country? Maybe. 600 00:36:27.909 --> 00:36:33.170 He did Gerald Ford's official portrait for the White House. 601 00:36:34.170 --> 00:36:35.510 Is that right? Yeah. Yes. 602 00:36:35.929 --> 00:36:38.210 You know why I know that? Because the shadow scrapbook 603 00:36:38.670 --> 00:36:41.559 showed examples of his work in the shadow pulps. and 604 00:36:41.579 --> 00:36:44.500 then had a modern picture of him painting Gerald Ford, 605 00:36:44.579 --> 00:36:45.300 which was amazing. 606 00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:48.900 Ah, there you go. Crazy. Crazy. Yeah. 607 00:36:49.500 --> 00:36:51.320 So forgive me, Al. I don't mean to bash you 608 00:36:51.380 --> 00:36:52.119 on your story. 609 00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:57.679 No, no, that's fine. He's a wonderful painter and illustrator, 610 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:01.519 and apparently he was never embarrassed by the fact that 611 00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:05.139 he had drawn comic books. Some guys are. I get it, man. 612 00:37:05.179 --> 00:37:06.159 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 613 00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:10.519 Yeah. I think... I think, who is that great EC 614 00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:16.760 artist who did the Master Race story? Bernie Krigstein. Okay. Really? 615 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:18.159 Bernie was embarrassed? 616 00:37:18.219 --> 00:37:24.739 Yeah. Yeah, he was embarrassed to have ever done comic books. Wow. Wow. 617 00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:27.230 Tell me what happened at the Christmas party at the 618 00:37:27.250 --> 00:37:27.750 Players Club. 619 00:37:28.110 --> 00:37:32.949 Okay, so I was talking to Jim, and I just casually, 620 00:37:32.969 --> 00:37:35.750 you know, and I, and, you know, Jim had a 621 00:37:35.789 --> 00:37:40.070 reputation of, if you worked with him on a job, 622 00:37:42.610 --> 00:37:45.239 he would suddenly find faults in your work that he 623 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:51.079 had never noticed before. And it could be detrimental to 624 00:37:51.099 --> 00:37:55.199 your career. Because, you know, you went from being, hey, 625 00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:58.579 that guy's great, to, I don't understand, what kind of 626 00:37:58.619 --> 00:38:02.260 storytelling is this? Doesn't he understand what I'm trying to 627 00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:04.360 get across? You know, that kind of thing. So it 628 00:38:04.409 --> 00:38:08.739 could become a negative. And and we were and I thought, 629 00:38:09.139 --> 00:38:11.940 you know, because I was I was cocky in those 630 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.920 days and somewhat. And I said, you know, Jim, you 631 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:18.880 and I never did a job together. I'd like to 632 00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:21.639 do it because I'm curious to see, you know, whether 633 00:38:21.739 --> 00:38:26.539 I could fulfill your, you know, your your your tenants, 634 00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:29.809 you know, your for how you want stuff done. And 635 00:38:29.829 --> 00:38:32.050 I said, and we get along, so I'm sure we 636 00:38:32.070 --> 00:38:35.550 could do it without any animosity. And he said, you know, no, Al, 637 00:38:35.610 -->

00:38:38.679 we'd be great together. I said, okay, good. So, and 638 00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:42.099 he said, you know, come to think of it, I'm 639 00:38:42.139 --> 00:38:45.960 looking for an artist to take over the new Secret 640 00:38:45.980 --> 00:38:49.920 Wars series. And I said, really? And I knew it 641 00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:53.760 was a, the first one had been a great seller. Yeah. And, 642 00:38:53.780 --> 00:38:56.300 you know, because of course it became like the linchpin 643 00:38:56.340 --> 00:38:59.380 of the company that because they had crossovers of every 644 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:04.079 other title that linked into that series. And I said, wow. 645 00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:06.760 I said, but I thought Sal was doing that. He says, well, 646 00:39:07.420 --> 00:39:10.219 you know, Sal did the first issue. I'm really not 647 00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:14.170 happy with it. We paid him for it, but, and 648 00:39:14.190 --> 00:39:15.929 I don't want you to get screwed out of first 649 00:39:16.010 --> 00:39:20.369 issue royalties or incentives payments is, you know, what they 650 00:39:20.409 --> 00:39:24.460 call it. And he says, so I would, if you're interested, 651 00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:30.400 I'm going to, we can work on that series together 652 00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:33.639 and I'm going to have you redraw the first issue 653 00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:38.139 from scratch. And, you know, just because he didn't want 654 00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:40.449 me to lose out on the royalties, which was a 655 00:39:40.489 --> 00:39:44.909 very nice gesture on his part. But listen, I adore 656 00:39:44.949 --> 00:39:47.550 Sal and his work and I didn't want him to 657 00:39:47.590 --> 00:39:49.929 get screwed because And he said, no, no, don't worry. 658 00:39:49.949 --> 00:39:52.349 You know, well, Sal's taken care of. And he was, 659 00:39:52.409 --> 00:39:55.570 you know, under contract to Marvel, making a very nice 660 00:39:55.659 --> 00:39:59.800 living at the time, and as was his brother. And 661 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.699 so I said, OK, you know, great. So he's, you know, now, 662 00:40:03.739 --> 00:40:07.760 of course, we've already lost a month lead time because 663 00:40:07.820 --> 00:40:10.369 Sal had drawn the first issue. So now I had 664 00:40:10.389 --> 00:40:11.989 to start it all over again. And I kind of 665 00:40:12.010 --> 00:40:13.510 leafed through it. I didn't want to look at it 666 00:40:13.550 --> 00:40:18.730 too closely because I didn't want to be influenced. especially 667 00:40:18.769 --> 00:40:23.900 since Jim wasn't happy with it. Yeah, yeah. But I 668 00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:27.900 then proceeded to draw the entire series under very, very 669 00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:34.420 strenuous deadline conditions. And they got Steve Lealoha to finish 670 00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:38.059 my breakdowns. There's no way I could have done nice 671 00:40:38.099 --> 00:40:43.389 tight pencils for it. And Steve is a terrific artist 672

00:40:43.489 --> 00:40:47.300 and inker. And he did yeoman service on it. And, uh, 673 00:40:47.429 --> 00:40:50.690 you know, it, I thought my storytelling was good, but 674 00:40:50.849 --> 00:40:54.010 it certainly didn't, you know, didn't hold up, uh, by 675 00:40:54.070 --> 00:40:58.809 any stretch to, uh, to, uh, uh, Mike Zek's, uh, 676 00:40:59.260 --> 00:41:02.139 stint on the first one. And I really thought Sal 677 00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:06.179 did a perfectly fine job and it would have ultimately 678 00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:11.500 looked better than, uh, than what I ended up doing. And, uh, I, 679 00:41:11.659 --> 00:41:14.969 and I, that's unfortunate, but I weathered the storm. I 680 00:41:15.010 --> 00:41:18.849 worked with Shooter. We got along great. Apparently, I misdrew 681 00:41:18.909 --> 00:41:21.429 something in one issue. He says, oh, yeah, this character, 682 00:41:21.449 --> 00:41:22.730 you drew him as a black guy, but he was 683 00:41:22.750 --> 00:41:26.750 supposed to be Latino. And I said, what? He says, yeah, 684 00:41:26.769 --> 00:41:30.050 it's right there in the plot. And I think it was. 685 00:41:30.110 --> 00:41:33.150 I think I had just somehow glossed over it. So 686 00:41:33.170 --> 00:41:35.829 there was a character who was supposed to be one 687 00:41:36.510 --> 00:41:39.559 minority type, and I drew a different minority type. And 688 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:41.519 Jim said, don't worry about it. I'll write around it. 689 00:41:41.619 --> 00:41:43.699 You know, I said, well, good. That's the Marvel style. 690 00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:48.460 You know, so he did not hold it against me, 691 00:41:48.500 --> 00:41:53.130 although he certainly could have. And and so, you know, again, 692 00:41:53.190 --> 00:41:55.389 my working relationship with Jim was quite good. 693 00:41:56.730 --> 00:41:59.269 That's great. You know, honestly, I bet much like me, 694 00:41:59.329 --> 00:42:01.789 while you're telling these stories, I pulled out my iPad, 695 00:42:01.829 --> 00:42:04.639 I grabbed Marvel Unlimited. And I'm looking at covers and 696 00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:07.099 pages that you did for Secret Wars 2. I noticed 697 00:42:07.139 --> 00:42:10.619 Joe Rubenstein was another inker on that series with Steve. 698 00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:12.300 At least he's credited as such. 699 00:42:12.969 --> 00:42:17.289 Yeah, probably, you know, the deadlines got heinous enough that 700 00:42:17.329 --> 00:42:19.869 they had to call in help. I don't remember if 701 00:42:19.949 --> 00:42:25.090 I myself did any inking on the series. And ironically, 702 00:42:26.409 --> 00:42:34.679 after stealing the job from Buscema, They got John Byrne 703 00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:37.619 to do the cover of the first one, which really 704 00:42:37.900 --> 00:42:38.920 galled me no end. 705 00:42:39.659 --> 00:42:40.179 Oh, wow. 706 00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:45.760 Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. You know, look, I like doing 707 00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:49.329 the covers for the books I draw, but, you know, 708 00:42:49.409 --> 00:42:54.150 I was probably, because the deadline had become instantly, you know, tight, 709 00:42:54.730 --> 00:42:57.570 they probably said, well, Al's busy drawing the first issue. 710 00:42:57.889 --> 00:43:00.889 We got to get a cover out there for, you know, to... 711 00:43:01.590 --> 00:43:05.389 promote it and sell it. Um, so, and John was 712 00:43:05.429 --> 00:43:08.280 the hot property, certainly at the time, uh, you know, 713 00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:11.199 he is the hottest, hottest artist in the biz and 714 00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:13.099 that's what they got him. But, and I would have 715 00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:14.960 liked to have done it. Okay. 716 00:43:14.980 --> 00:43:18.179 We're stopping here. Part four, final part coming up next 717 00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:19.670 time here on word balloon. 718 00:43:21.190 --> 00:43:23.730 That's great, man. You know, honestly, I bet much like me, 719 00:43:23.789 --> 00:43:26.250 while you're telling these stories, I pulled out my iPad, 720 00:43:26.289 --> 00:43:28.920 I grabbed Marvel unlimited and, And I'm looking at covers 721 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:31.280 and pages that you did for Secret Wars 2. I 722 00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:35.079 noticed Joe Rubenstein was another inker on that series with Steve. 723 00:43:35.500 --> 00:43:36.739 At least he's credited as such. 724 00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:41.750 Yeah, probably, you know, the deadlines got heinous enough that 725 00:43:41.769 --> 00:43:44.309 they had to call in help. I don't remember if 726 00:43:44.409 --> 00:43:51.190 I myself did any inking on the series. And ironically, 727 00:43:51.429 --> 00:43:59.139 after stealing the job from Buscema, They got John Byrne 728 00:43:59.159 --> 00:44:02.079 to do the cover of the first one, which really 729 00:44:02.340 --> 00:44:03.360 galled me no end. 730 00:44:04.119 --> 00:44:04.619 Oh, wow. 731 00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:10.230 Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. You know, look, I like doing 732 00:44:10.250 --> 00:44:13.789 the covers for the books I draw, but, you know, 733 00:44:13.869 --> 00:44:18.590 I was probably, because the deadline had become instantly, you know, tight, 734 00:44:19.170 --> 00:44:22.010 they probably said, well, Al's busy drawing the first issue. 735 00:44:22.329 --> 00:44:25.329 We got to get a cover out there for, you know, to... 736 00:44:26.050 --> 00:44:29.829 promote it and sell it um so and john was 737 00:44:29.889 --> 00:44:32.710 the hot property certainly at the time uh you know 738 00:44:32.750 --> 00:44:35.929 he's the hottest hottest artist in the biz and that's 739 00:44:35.949 --> 00:44:37.739 what they got him but and i would have liked 740 00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:38.280 to have done. 741 00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:40.960 It well dude i'm looking at your cover for number 742 00:44:41.019 --> 00:44:45.239 two with the beyonder totally glowing surrounded by iron fist 743 00:44:45.260 --> 00:44:49.800 mr

fantastic nick uh uh um not nick luke cage 744 00:44:49.900 --> 00:44:54.130 nick cage uh she all The Human Torch, Spider-Man in 745 00:44:54.150 --> 00:44:57.010 the black outfit, and there's the Invisible Woman. So pretty 746 00:44:57.050 --> 00:44:59.429 dynamic cover, Al, I got to tell you. And I 747 00:44:59.469 --> 00:45:04.260 like the interiors of what I'm looking at. So, you know, honestly, honestly. 748 00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:08.980 And so, you know, again, I love these stories. You 749 00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:11.699 are really entertaining the hell out of us. And also, 750 00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:15.139 I wanted to ask, going back to fanfare, did you 751 00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:18.159 draw those introductions where you would introduce the story? 752 00:45:18.860 --> 00:45:19.840 Oh, yeah. Who else? 753 00:45:19.940 --> 00:45:20.179 All right. 754 00:45:20.199 --> 00:45:20.559 I figured. 755 00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:22.090 But I wanted to ask. I wanted to confirm it. 756 00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:22.360 Yeah. 757 00:45:22.940 --> 00:45:26.980 They're fun. They're fun. Again, that was my first exposure 758 00:45:27.380 --> 00:45:31.630 to your work was you introducing fanfare and everything. And 759 00:45:31.650 --> 00:45:33.530 it's like, oh, that's cool. And oh, he's the editor. 760 00:45:33.610 --> 00:45:33.889 All right. 761 00:45:33.949 --> 00:45:35.690 Great. And like I said, like I said in the 762 00:45:35.730 --> 00:45:39.730 last chapter of our conversation, you were like Rod Serling. 763 00:45:39.750 --> 00:45:39.929 All right. 764 00:45:39.949 --> 00:45:41.510 We're going to tell you a little story right now, kids. 765 00:45:41.570 --> 00:45:44.239 Everybody get together and you're going to be blown away 766 00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:45.739 by this art. You're going to be blown away by 767 00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:46.739 this story. Yeah. 768 00:45:47.469 --> 00:45:58.840 Well, and in fact, the reason for those was, you know, 769 00:45:58.860 --> 00:46:01.199 when we broke off yesterday, I was talking about fanfare 770 00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:04.679 and how I had proposed it as a, you know, 771 00:46:04.699 --> 00:46:07.639 because I learned that, A, we made no money off 772 00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:12.059 the advertising that we were using in the book. But 773 00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:16.219 also because of the inception of the direct sales market, 774 00:46:16.820 --> 00:46:20.019 we could sell them to, you know, at a higher price, 775 00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:23.929 but also there was no danger of returns because the 776 00:46:23.969 --> 00:46:29.070 way the, um, the, uh, the way the, uh, distribution work, 777 00:46:29.130 --> 00:46:33.590 newsstand distribution is they would print out, print up, you know, 778 00:46:33.889 --> 00:46:39.059 hundreds of thousands of copies. And then the distributor would 779 00:46:39.099 --> 00:46:41.719 take them to all their clients, all the drug stores 780 00:46:41.800 --> 00:46:47.119 and newsstands and wherever the comic books are sold. And 781 00:46:48.440 --> 00:46:51.400 they would stay on the stands for a finite period 782 00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:55.179 of time, probably, you know, until the next issue of 783 00:46:55.219 --> 00:46:57.489 a title came out. And then they would take all 784 00:46:57.510 --> 00:47:01.829 the unsold copies and initially they would return them for credit. 785 00:47:02.610 --> 00:47:06.309 And then that became too bulky and worrisome. So they 786 00:47:06.349 --> 00:47:09.690 would just tear off the covers and return those for credit. 787 00:47:10.230 --> 00:47:12.809 And that that became that was then they decided too 788 00:47:12.849 --> 00:47:14.530 big of a pain in the ass. And so then 789 00:47:14.550 --> 00:47:17.079 they would just tear off the logos off the covers 790 00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:21.519 and return those. And then finally they said, you know, 791 00:47:21.579 --> 00:47:24.780 this is not worth the effort. We'll just go on 792 00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:26.920 the honor system. Oh, my God. 793 00:47:26.940 --> 00:47:27.480 Yeah. 794 00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:30.760 Yes, exactly. So tell them what happened, Al. 795 00:47:30.780 --> 00:47:33.530 Tell them what happened with the bulk comics that they 796 00:47:33.570 --> 00:47:36.090 tore off, even the logo of the cover. What happened 797 00:47:36.110 --> 00:47:38.230 to those comics? Keep going. I know where it's going, 798 00:47:38.250 --> 00:47:38.949 but tell the people. 799 00:47:39.650 --> 00:47:42.750 Yes. Well, some of them probably actually were either scrapped 800 00:47:42.889 --> 00:47:46.969 or returned. But a lot of them were then resold 801 00:47:47.289 --> 00:47:52.409 on some secondary market, you know, with either the logo 802 00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:56.099 or the cover itself missing. And so if they were 803 00:47:56.099 --> 00:47:58.940 10 or 12 cents cover price at the time, they'd 804 00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:03.409 sell them for a nickel. And I know this because I, 805 00:48:06.829 --> 00:48:09.070 you know, I once in my quest to get early 806 00:48:09.110 --> 00:48:12.760 issues of the Fantastic Four, where the Marvel had very 807 00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:17.059 spotty distribution in those days, probably because they were being 808 00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:21.599 distributed by DC's distributors, who I'm sure didn't give a 809 00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:26.570 flying F about it. I mean, it was their job, 810 00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:32.210 but nonetheless. So the retailer would say, yeah, you gave 811 00:48:32.269 --> 00:48:35.250 us 100 copies of this book. We only sold 60. 812 00:48:41.099 --> 00:48:46.079 So they'd get credit for 40. Well, you know, now, meanwhile, 813 00:48:46.139 --> 00:48:50.800 those 40 copies, they were supposed to destroy them. But 814 00:48:50.860 --> 00:48:53.460 as often as not, they'd find somebody who'd pay two 815 00:48:53.500 --> 00:48:56.599 or three cents each for them. Oh, yeah. And then 816 00:48:56.639 -->

00:48:58.880 they would, you know, and then there was a mom 817 00:48:58.900 --> 00:49:01.719 and pop shop in my area where they had comic 818 00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:05.969 books on sale with the logos torn off for a nickel. 819 00:49:06.829 --> 00:49:07.170 Sure. 820 00:49:07.650 --> 00:49:11.400 And as it happens, that's where I found my complete 821 00:49:11.659 --> 00:49:15.510 mint condition copy of Fantastic Four number five with the 822 00:49:15.610 --> 00:49:19.219 first appearance of Doctor Doom. They had two copies of it. 823 00:49:19.570 --> 00:49:21.590 It had the logo. It had the cover. They were 824 00:49:22.170 --> 00:49:24.489 just as if you bought them. And I got them 825 00:49:24.510 --> 00:49:26.389 for a nickel each. Wow. 826 00:49:26.409 --> 00:49:29.309 Because I'm just guessing that maybe the cover was off 827 00:49:29.329 --> 00:49:31.969 or something, you know. You see, I'm a little older. 828 00:49:31.989 --> 00:49:34.150 You're a little younger, Al. And I remember when they 829 00:49:34.170 --> 00:49:37.630 would be in bags. And three for a quarter. 830 00:49:38.050 --> 00:49:38.889 Right. Or whatever. 831 00:49:38.969 --> 00:49:39.380 And they went. 832 00:49:40.639 --> 00:49:45.840 That was another way that they would manage to make 833 00:49:45.900 --> 00:49:50.440 money off the back end of the comic industry. Yeah. 834 00:49:50.579 --> 00:49:53.139 I remember Whitman, and I assume they had an agreement 835 00:49:53.610 --> 00:49:55.670 with Marvel and DC because they would also sell them 836 00:49:55.730 --> 00:50:01.869 like that intact. But no, I remember very distinctly seeing 837 00:50:01.889 --> 00:50:04.789 a lot of great 60s comics with the covers off 838 00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:07.219 that they would sell dirt cheap and everything, and I 839 00:50:07.219 --> 00:50:08.219 just wanted to read the story. 840 00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:08.719 I didn't care. 841 00:50:09.139 --> 00:50:09.360 Yeah. 842 00:50:10.139 --> 00:50:14.280 Exactly. Exactly. And in my case, I got lucky and got, 843 00:50:14.360 --> 00:50:18.329 you know, a complete copy of that book. 844 00:50:18.349 --> 00:50:19.030 That's fantastic. 845 00:50:19.369 --> 00:50:23.389 So back to fanfare and creating fanfare for the direct market. Well, 846 00:50:23.469 --> 00:50:27.030 and the thing was that the copies that they reported 847 00:50:27.170 --> 00:50:30.900 as unsold, they would receive full credit for, and they 848 00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:35.840 could apply it to their next order of comic books. Oh, okay. Yeah, so, 849 00:50:36.019 --> 00:50:38.760 you know, they didn't have... If they got 100 and only... 850 00:50:40.510 --> 00:50:45.309 sold 60, they would get credit for the 40 that 851 00:50:45.329 --> 00:50:48.289 they didn't sell and could use it towards their next order. 852 00:50:48.369 --> 00:50:51.489 And in the meantime, they were making, again, some pennies 853 00:50:51.570 --> 00:50:57.880 on the side by selling them to other venues where 854 00:50:57.940 --> 00:51:01.320 nobody could check up on them. Yeah, absolutely. 855 00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:02.840 No, I love hearing about this period. 856 00:51:02.860 --> 00:51:05.079 You're right. 857 00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:08.030 So Fanfare, like you said, it was a direct market product. 858 00:51:08.869 --> 00:51:11.670 And for twice the– I mean, it was, as we 859 00:51:11.690 --> 00:51:15.750 discussed last time, $ 0. 60 for the average comic, $ 1. 25 for 860 00:51:15.769 --> 00:51:17.110 Marvel Fanfare when it debuted. 861 00:51:17.719 --> 00:51:18.070 Correct. 862 00:51:19.260 --> 00:51:23.820 And also, beyond these amazing stories, great pinups and other 863 00:51:23.900 --> 00:51:28.539 beautiful portfolios. We spotlight one artist, but also a bunch 864 00:51:28.579 --> 00:51:31.320 of different artists, right? I mean, you know, so, like, 865 00:51:31.619 --> 00:51:33.639 was that easy to get from the artists and everything? 866 00:51:35.460 --> 00:51:36.489 What, get work from them? 867 00:51:37.110 --> 00:51:39.469 Well, I mean, I guess it is just basically work. 868 00:51:39.510 --> 00:51:41.730 But yeah, like, were they excited about, hey, I need 869 00:51:41.750 --> 00:51:45.599 someone to do a Valkyrie pinup for fanfare? Do it. 870 00:51:45.789 --> 00:51:51.449 I think because of the quality of the book, you know, 871 00:51:51.489 --> 00:51:53.510 and the better paper with the better printing and the 872 00:51:53.530 --> 00:51:58.010 better coloring we were capable of getting, I think a 873 00:51:58.050 --> 00:52:00.280 lot of guys were excited. And, you know, don't discount 874 00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:02.960 the fact that getting paid one and a half times 875 00:52:02.980 --> 00:52:05.889 your normal rate is a great incentive, you know, and, 876 00:52:05.969 --> 00:52:10.369 and it's again, before they were paying royalties. So, so yeah, 877 00:52:10.550 --> 00:52:12.590 I think that a lot of the art, and I think, 878 00:52:12.610 --> 00:52:16.880 I think it was considered a, you know, a premium 879 00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:21.059 product where, you know, you would be maybe honored to 880 00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:25.519 be asked to do it. You know, I, I never 881 00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:27.460 heard anybody say, I don't want to work for that rag, 882 00:52:27.480 --> 00:52:31.630 you know? So I think, you know, I think it 883 00:52:31.670 --> 00:52:34.760 was a win-win situation all around. And the book sold 884 00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:39.420 very well initially. Um, and, uh, and it gave me an, 885 00:52:39.460 --> 00:52:42.159 you know, I liked, you know, I like to, uh, 886 00:52:42.900 --> 00:52:45.599 I like to play around with the art, uh, end 887 00:52:45.659 --> 00:52:49.010 of it, you know, and, and, and the writers to 888 00:52:49.030 --> 00:52:51.309 the stories, but it gave me a wide, you know, 889 00:52:51.329 --> 00:52:55.710 I could do some very offbeat and unorthodox stuff. I 890 00:52:55.750 --> 00:52:59.289

could use some artists who were either, uh, not well 891 00:52:59.349 --> 00:53:05.030 known or who had sort of, um, um, unique or 892 00:53:05.170 --> 00:53:08.230 non less commercial looking, let's put it that way, less 893 00:53:08.289 --> 00:53:12.190 commercial looking, uh, styles, you know, not the necessarily the, 894 00:53:12.650 --> 00:53:17.420 the very slick polished, uh, you know, professional artwork that, 895 00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:22.139 that you're, uh, familiar with, but maybe had like a, uh, 896 00:53:22.539 --> 00:53:25.559 a slightly different take. And I think, I think I 897 00:53:25.579 --> 00:53:29.510 was very lucky and maybe a little good in getting 898 00:53:29.550 --> 00:53:33.800 work out of guys who, uh, ordinarily, we're not finding 899 00:53:33.820 --> 00:53:36.219 a lot of work in the business for whatever reason. 900 00:53:36.280 --> 00:53:42.360 For instance, you know, I mean, I discovered Paul Smith 901 00:53:42.460 --> 00:53:49.449 and got him working. I used an artist called Tony Sammons, 902 00:53:51.389 --> 00:53:54.690 like the fish, who had a very offbeat look to 903 00:53:54.750 --> 00:53:59.500 his stuff. It was not real polished looking stuff. But 904 00:53:59.539 --> 00:54:02.239 the drawing was great, and the storytelling was great, and 905 00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:08.619 his composition was really interesting. Marvelous use of space. Not 906 00:54:08.699 --> 00:54:14.179 every panel was cluttered to a fairly well. And this 907 00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:17.659 is not meant as a diss, but like, say, George Perez. 908 00:54:18.059 --> 00:54:20.300 If you get George Perez, you're going to get tons 909 00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:25.010 of detail in every single panel. Tony's stuff, there was 910 00:54:25.050 --> 00:54:28.489 more breathing room, and I respected that, and I liked it. 911 00:54:29.559 --> 00:54:32.599 And I don't know, I seem to recall him maybe 912 00:54:32.619 --> 00:54:35.900 doing some work up at Continuity Studios, Neil Adams and 913 00:54:35.940 --> 00:54:39.920 Dick Giordano's art studio that they had for comic and 914 00:54:39.980 --> 00:54:43.739 commercial work. Well, I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that. 915 00:54:43.820 --> 00:54:46.559 But I was aware of his work and liked it. 916 00:54:46.699 --> 00:54:49.420 And he did at least a couple of jobs for me. 917 00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:53.099 I think he did a Cloak and Dagger. I know 918 00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:55.440 he did a Daredevil. Oh, and there was a really 919 00:54:55.480 --> 00:54:59.409 nice Hulk story that he did where... he really kind 920 00:54:59.429 --> 00:55:02.769 of went back to Kirby's original take on the character, 921 00:55:02.829 --> 00:55:07.730 the way he looked, the way he moved. And, you know, being, again, 922 00:55:07.769 --> 00:55:11.570 a Kirby aficionado, I just loved what he did on 923 00:55:11.610 --> 00:55:15.440 that job. And because it had some nice negative space 924 00:55:15.500 --> 00:55:18.659 and open areas, the color looked really nice, you know, 925 00:55:18.940 --> 00:55:21.940 really beautiful. I thought Tony did great stuff. I got 926 00:55:22.099 --> 00:55:26.309 some work by Sandy Plunkett, who was one of the... 927 00:55:26.849 --> 00:55:32.190 all time great illustrators, uh, who's done so little in 928 00:55:32.250 --> 00:55:35.190 comic books. I have no idea how he ever made 929 00:55:35.230 --> 00:55:38.389 a living his whole life. I, I, if I ever 930 00:55:38.429 --> 00:55:40.820 run into him or, or, you know, run into him 931 00:55:40.880 --> 00:55:43.000 online or something, I got to ask him how he 932 00:55:43.019 --> 00:55:46.519 survived all these years. Maybe he sells the originals and 933 00:55:46.539 --> 00:55:48.659 gets great money for him. He certainly deserves it. He 934 00:55:48.699 --> 00:55:52.920 did a Scarlet Witch and Spider-Man story for me. I 935 00:55:52.980 --> 00:55:56.860 don't remember if that was, uh, you know, I commissioned 936 00:55:56.880 --> 00:55:58.719 the thing, or if it was another thing I stole 937 00:55:58.780 --> 00:56:02.159 from Marvel Team-Up, it seems like kind of a Marvel 938 00:56:02.199 --> 00:56:03.159 Team-Up story. 939 00:56:03.659 --> 00:56:04.900 Sounds like an idea like that. 940 00:56:04.940 --> 00:56:07.719 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's got Spider-Man, so 941 00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:12.300 there's a good chance, you know. Sure, sure. And I think, 942 00:56:12.760 --> 00:56:14.860 did he ink it himself? No, I think Craig Russell 943 00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:17.139 might have inked that one. And by the way, there's 944 00:56:17.179 --> 00:56:23.369 a guy, one of the really brilliant illustrators in comics, Craig, 945 00:56:23.389 --> 00:56:24.869 you know, Paul Craig Russell. 946 00:56:25.380 --> 00:56:27.420 Couldn't agree more, man. I've had the pleasure of him 947 00:56:27.480 --> 00:56:29.760 on my show a couple of times. Oh, and we 948 00:56:29.780 --> 00:56:30.510 heard of a guy. 949 00:56:30.690 --> 00:56:33.929 We heard of a guy. Terrific. And by the way, 950 00:56:33.949 --> 00:56:37.250 he plays piano like a, like a concert pianist. He's fantastic. 951 00:56:37.289 --> 00:56:38.449 I didn't know that. That's amazing. 952 00:56:38.949 --> 00:56:43.429 Yeah. We haven't played a little ditty, but, um, and, 953 00:56:43.639 --> 00:56:46.260 and Craig and I started virtually the same time in 954 00:56:46.280 --> 00:56:49.800 the industry. And not only is his drawing wonderful and 955 00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:55.969 he's a, he's a, um, opera aficionado. He loves opera. 956 00:56:56.409 --> 00:57:00.820 He's done a number of adaptations of operas in comic 957 00:57:00.860 --> 00:57:03.780 book form. The Magic Flute, I think he did. I 958 00:57:04.360 --> 00:57:05.840 don't know. Yes, I did know that. 959 00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:06.460 Yes, yes. 960 00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:10.679 He's done several of them, maybe many of them. They're 961 00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:15.880

beautiful to behold. Everybody run out and look it up 962 00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:18.929 online and you can order one, I'm sure, or more. 963 00:57:18.989 --> 00:57:22.550 They're just great. and the other thing about Craig is 964 00:57:23.550 --> 00:57:29.429 because he draws exceptionally well, he, and inks his own stuff. He, um, 965 00:57:30.869 --> 00:57:35.539 he also, uh, he has this, this beautiful incline. I 966 00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:39.800 describe it as calligraphic. It's almost like each line has 967 00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:43.670 a character unto itself. Uh, you know, as opposed to a, 968 00:57:43.739 --> 00:57:48.170 you know, a normal professional qualified anchor who does a 969 00:57:48.230 --> 00:57:51.699 nice slick line and, knows how to do the pen 970 00:57:51.739 --> 00:57:55.019 work and the brush work. Craig's stuff is so distinctive. 971 00:57:55.719 --> 00:58:00.059 I'm pretty sure I could recognize his inking style on 972 00:58:00.179 --> 00:58:03.889 any penciler. And he was one of my real go-to guys. 973 00:58:03.949 --> 00:58:07.110 If I had somebody who was either a really good 974 00:58:08.110 --> 00:58:10.309 penciler and I couldn't figure out who the hell would 975 00:58:10.329 --> 00:58:13.650 be appropriate to ink him, or somebody with a really 976 00:58:13.789 --> 00:58:16.269 offbeat style and I couldn't figure out who the hell 977 00:58:16.289 --> 00:58:20.260 to ink him, or somebody who is problematic uh, in 978 00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:24.969 the pencils for whatever reason, I always ended up, uh, uh, 979 00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:28.400 calling on Craig and, uh, I was surprised actually how 980 00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:30.159 much work he had done for me. I think he 981 00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:34.949 inked that Sandy Plunkett job. Uh, he inked a, uh, 982 00:58:35.090 --> 00:58:39.949 Carmine Infantino, Dr. Strange job. That was interesting. He inked 983 00:58:40.030 --> 00:58:43.239 a Marshall Rogers, Dr. Strange job. That was wonderful. 984 00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:44.099 Yeah. 985 00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:49.300 Um, Right, and he did, I did, here's another inventory 986 00:58:49.340 --> 00:58:53.409 job that I, you know, used up for fanfare. It 987 00:58:53.469 --> 00:58:56.789 was the, was it Weird World? Was that the name 988 00:58:56.829 --> 00:58:58.070 of it? Yeah. 989 00:58:58.230 --> 00:59:00.769 With the dwarves. 990 00:59:00.389 --> 00:59:03.090 And elves and magic and, you know, it was, you know, 991 00:59:03.110 --> 00:59:05.789 it was a sort of a Lord of the Rings 992 00:59:06.389 --> 00:59:10.920 influence series. They had a three or four issue series 993 00:59:11.780 --> 00:59:15.159 that for whatever reason, well, they, I think they did 994 00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:18.909 like a magazine format of it. And this was like 995 00:59:19.190 --> 00:59:22.929 either earlier adventures or further adventures. The first one was 996 00:59:22.969 --> 00:59:26.030 drawn by Mike Ploog, who was a terrific artist and, 997 00:59:27.500 --> 00:59:30.420 Did very little work in comics. He did Man-Thing, I believe. 998 00:59:30.920 --> 00:59:34.179 He did some Ghost Rider, I think. And, you know, 999 00:59:34.219 --> 00:59:36.039 some other stuff here and there. I think, did he 1000 00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:39.469 do Werewolf by Night, maybe, early on? 1001 00:59:39.489 --> 00:59:42.809 I believe that's right. But also, he did the movie 1002 00:59:42.929 --> 00:59:50.510 with Bashki, Wizards. And also, Demetrius in the early 2000s 1003 00:59:50.570 --> 00:59:53.929 got him back in comics. And they did that fantasy book, Abadazad. 1004 00:59:54.730 --> 00:59:56.030 That was really interesting. 1005 00:59:57.969 --> 00:59:58.909 I don't think I know that one. 1006 00:59:59.250 --> 01:00:01.210 No, I was stunned that he got him back to 1007 01:00:01.230 --> 01:00:03.090 do comics because, yeah, Ploog is amazing. 1008 01:00:03.690 --> 01:00:07.309 Yeah. Well, he's wonderful. And after his fling in comic books, 1009 01:00:08.170 --> 01:00:11.070 where he still probably did more work overall than Jim Sterenko, 1010 01:00:13.989 --> 01:00:18.550 he went off to Hollywood and was doing designs and 1011 01:00:19.150 --> 01:00:22.159 maybe storyboards. I don't really even know what his Hollywood 1012 01:00:22.179 --> 01:00:24.440 career was. But, you know, clearly he was making a 1013 01:00:24.460 --> 01:00:29.690 lot more money doing that than doing comics. But this 1014 01:00:29.769 --> 01:00:33.590 Weird World, he drew the first issue. And so there 1015 01:00:33.610 --> 01:00:36.909 I was, Mike Ploog. Who else? Who could ink him? 1016 01:00:37.550 --> 01:00:39.760 You know, and I said, ah, Craig Russell. And he did. 1017 01:00:39.780 --> 01:00:42.500 And he did a spectacular job. And then the next 1018 01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:46.860 three or two or three stories in the continuity, he 1019 01:00:46.900 --> 01:00:51.289 was no longer available, Ploog. And so... which really sounds 1020 01:00:51.329 --> 01:00:53.730 like a sound effect for somebody falling in the swamp. 1021 01:00:56.179 --> 01:00:59.059 I think if somebody falls in the swamp by accident, 1022 01:00:59.300 --> 01:01:04.260 the sound effect would read ploog. So anyway, I hope 1023 01:01:04.280 --> 01:01:07.699 Mike's not offended by that thought. He'd probably like it. Anyway, 1024 01:01:08.489 --> 01:01:10.710 I actually inked him once on just a few pages 1025 01:01:10.730 --> 01:01:14.369 of Cole, the Robert E. Howard character. 1026 01:01:18.579 --> 01:01:19.820 Yeah, Call the Conqueror, sure. 1027 01:01:19.969 --> 01:01:23.389 Call the Conqueror. He did a couple issues of that, 1028 01:01:23.449 --> 01:01:25.530 I think, and I think part of one of them, 1029 01:01:25.630 --> 01:01:29.550 probably because it was one of those emergencies. Beautiful stuff. 1030 01:01:29.570 --> 01:01:32.289 I did okay. He actually said, oh, Al, I like 1031 01:01:32.309 --> 01:01:35.349 what you did on me, and I was very happy

1032 01:01:35.369 --> 01:01:37.789 to hear that because I liked his work so much. Anyway, 1033 01:01:39.809 --> 01:01:42.530 the rest of that storyline, however, was drawn by Pat Broderick, 1034 01:01:43.190 --> 01:01:46.860 who does wonderful detailed stuff and did a fine job, 1035 01:01:46.929 --> 01:01:49.440 and I don't remember who inked it. I think maybe 1036 01:01:49.480 --> 01:01:52.099 Bruce Patterson, it was not Craig, but Bruce Patterson, I 1037 01:01:52.119 --> 01:01:55.570 think inked one or possibly two. And I don't know 1038 01:01:55.610 --> 01:01:58.809 who else I, you know, I, you know, if I could, 1039 01:01:58.989 --> 01:02:00.869 any good inker that I could lay my hands on, 1040 01:02:00.929 --> 01:02:03.090 I got, but Craig Russell. Oh. And the other thing 1041 01:02:03.110 --> 01:02:06.289 that he did that I thought was great was, um, 1042 01:02:07.070 --> 01:02:09.739 we had, and again, this was, I guess, technically inventory, 1043 01:02:10.139 --> 01:02:13.380 Gil Kane at some point, who was, um, you know, 1044 01:02:13.480 --> 01:02:17.539 a brilliant, uh, comic book artist, um, as well as 1045 01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:20.960 an art thief. But he also, he had done, he 1046 01:02:21.739 --> 01:02:27.219 had a, you know, a strained relationship with Marvel because 1047 01:02:27.300 --> 01:02:30.590 he would voucher stuff that he hadn't done yet. And 1048 01:02:30.659 --> 01:02:33.489 he would voucher stuff twice. And he would do things 1049 01:02:34.030 --> 01:02:38.789 that drove the accounting department crazy and me crazy and, 1050 01:02:38.909 --> 01:02:43.210 you know, and Shooter crazy and so on. But a brilliant, 1051 01:02:43.269 --> 01:02:45.590 brilliant comic book artist, just great design. 1052 01:02:45.659 --> 01:02:45.849 I got you. 1053 01:02:46.389 --> 01:02:51.230 Yeah, draws great, designs great, great storyteller. You know, as 1054 01:02:51.289 --> 01:02:54.130 a talent, he was among the very best, became, you know, 1055 01:02:54.170 --> 01:02:58.289 Marvel's preeminent cover guy when Kirby went over to DC 1056 01:02:58.389 --> 01:03:02.030 and he drew, you know, he drew like dozens of 1057 01:03:02.070 --> 01:03:05.900 comic book covers for Marvel every single month. And they 1058 01:03:05.940 --> 01:03:11.079 were great, you know, beautifully designed, very eye-catching, you know, 1059 01:03:11.159 --> 01:03:14.019 had a whole bunch of different inkers working on them. Well, 1060 01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:21.639 he had aspirations to do greater things in comics than superheroes. And, 1061 01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:24.750 you know, he did that His Name is Savage, a 1062 01:03:24.809 --> 01:03:29.710 self-published thing that he did about a, I guess, a 1063 01:03:29.750 --> 01:03:31.269 private eye kind of character. 1064 01:03:31.630 --> 01:03:33.469 Private eye or a spy or something. 1065 01:03:34.840 --> 01:03:38.699 You know, it was like a James Bond looking action thing. 1066 01:03:39.469 --> 01:03:44.050 A

Lee Marvin character as a James Bond spy. 1067 01:03:44.710 --> 01:03:48.349 The cover of the book was a painting, clearly of 1068 01:03:48.409 --> 01:03:51.969 Lee Marvin. And I think he got in trouble for that, 1069 01:03:52.030 --> 01:03:55.110 by the way. I'm sure he didn't do the painting. 1070 01:03:55.150 --> 01:03:56.809 I'm sure that he hired a painter. I don't think 1071 01:03:57.050 --> 01:04:00.280 Gil was... A capable painter, I don't know. I might 1072 01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:01.369 be wrong. 1073 01:04:01.510 --> 01:04:03.349 It didn't look like Gil's art, but yeah, I hear 1074 01:04:03.369 --> 01:04:04.909 what you're saying. 1075 01:04:04.949 --> 01:04:07.730 He may have done the layout for the painting. 1076 01:04:07.750 --> 01:04:08.050 Sure. 1077 01:04:08.230 --> 01:04:11.929 I don't think he actually did it. But he may 1078 01:04:11.949 --> 01:04:14.150 have been sued over it later. And then he did 1079 01:04:14.889 --> 01:04:18.960 that sci-fi newspaper strip, which was two tiers instead of 1080 01:04:19.039 --> 01:04:22.800 a single three-panel strip. What was that? Star Fox? Yes. 1081 01:04:26.539 --> 01:04:28.519 That's right. That's right. Yeah. 1082 01:04:28.539 --> 01:04:31.500 And he did that. So he kept trying to sort 1083 01:04:31.519 --> 01:04:35.679 of expand the boundaries of comics, which I give him 1084 01:04:35.719 --> 01:04:43.969 credit for that. But he had drawn a multi-issue adaptation 1085 01:04:44.090 --> 01:04:47.670 of The Jungle Book Tales by Rudyard Kipling. Oh, wow. 1086 01:04:48.369 --> 01:04:53.389 And they were wonderful. They looked great. Gill's pencils, I 1087 01:04:53.429 --> 01:04:57.230 found problematic. I found them very hard to ink. Because, 1088 01:04:57.710 --> 01:05:01.469 you know, he drew characters where, you know, the musculature, 1089 01:05:01.550 --> 01:05:04.719 it looked like an anatomy lesson. It didn't look like 1090 01:05:04.739 --> 01:05:08.820 they had flesh, you know. But that was his style. 1091 01:05:08.840 --> 01:05:11.719 And that's what he did. And it was something he 1092 01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:14.699 developed when he finally came over to Marvel from D.C. 1093 01:05:15.380 --> 01:05:18.119 Because his D.C. stuff on Green Lantern and Adam and 1094 01:05:18.659 --> 01:05:22.719 the sci-fi stuff in the 50s and 60s was very 1095 01:05:22.760 --> 01:05:24.769 well drawn. And it was very well inked. And I 1096 01:05:24.849 --> 01:05:28.219 don't know if he inked it himself. Um, but it 1097 01:05:28.260 --> 01:05:32.639 was very, it was, it was well done, but pedestrian, 1098 01:05:33.079 --> 01:05:36.550 it looked like the DC house style. And then, you know, 1099 01:05:36.610 --> 01:05:38.309 he came over to Marvel and he was inking his 1100 01:05:38.349 --> 01:05:41.889 own stuff and, you know, it was certainly distinctive. And, and, 1101 01:05:42.130 --> 01:05:44.610 and he, you know, he studied his Kirby who he'd 1102 01:05:44.630 --> 01:05:47.150 been a fan of anyway. And so he got very 1103 01:05:47.190 --> 01:05:51.309 dynamic and much more distinctive looking. And, uh, you know, 1104 01:05:51.510 --> 01:05:53.309 until later in his career, he was inking his own 1105 01:05:53.369 --> 01:05:57.099 stuff using markers and, which I thought was a terrible 1106 01:05:57.139 --> 01:06:00.079 idea on many levels, but he still made it look good. 1107 01:06:00.139 --> 01:06:02.980 I mean, he was, he was that damn good. But 1108 01:06:03.019 --> 01:06:08.260 here I had, here I had these four, um, Mowgli stories, Mowgli, the, 1109 01:06:08.340 --> 01:06:11.300 the jungle boy, um, with, with all the, you know, 1110 01:06:11.340 --> 01:06:14.960 raised by wolves and, and, uh, and, you know, he 1111 01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:18.349 could talk, he could talk to all the animals and, um, 1112 01:06:18.929 --> 01:06:23.329 you know, wonderful, charming tales. And, um, You know, and 1113 01:06:23.349 --> 01:06:25.510 there were good animals and bad animals and so on 1114 01:06:25.550 --> 01:06:28.050 and so forth. And I found these in a drawer. 1115 01:06:28.250 --> 01:06:33.289 And I don't remember if he had plotted them or 1116 01:06:33.329 --> 01:06:35.250 scripted them. I mean, they were taken right from the 1117 01:06:35.289 --> 01:06:40.739 original stories, I believe. But so here I have like four, 1118 01:06:40.760 --> 01:06:44.179 a four part story, I think it was by Gil Kane, 1119 01:06:44.920 --> 01:06:48.179 just languishing in a drawer somewhere. And I said, man, OK, 1120 01:06:48.199 --> 01:06:50.179 I got to get these scripted and lettered. And who 1121 01:06:50.219 --> 01:06:53.179 could I get to ink them? Who has a good 1122 01:06:53.239 --> 01:06:56.690 illustrative style? Who do I know who can ink anybody 1123 01:06:57.050 --> 01:06:59.429 and would do a nice job on Gil Kane? And 1124 01:06:59.449 --> 01:07:01.690 then I said, well, of course, Craig Russell, because he 1125 01:07:01.710 --> 01:07:06.269 was the guy I used for anything difficult. And he 1126 01:07:06.349 --> 01:07:09.230 just did a terrific job, and they colored up beautifully. 1127 01:07:09.929 --> 01:07:14.050 And I'm very proud of those also. And the dyed-in-the-wool 1128 01:07:14.110 --> 01:07:17.929 comic book superhero fans... I don't know what they thought 1129 01:07:17.969 --> 01:07:21.210 of that series, but I thought it was a credit 1130 01:07:21.250 --> 01:07:23.769 to the title. I thought it was just, you know, 1131 01:07:23.829 --> 01:07:27.510 stuff that that should be published. And I was glad 1132 01:07:28.010 --> 01:07:29.230 I was the one to get to publish it. 1133 01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:32.260 That's really cool. And Marvel put that stuff out. 1134 01:07:34.219 --> 01:07:37.119 Yes, I'm assuming they either had the rights or it 1135 01:07:37.159 --> 01:07:38.619 was public domain by this time. 1136 01:07:39.059 --> 01:07:39.719 Sure, sure. 1137 01:07:39.900 --> 01:07:43.480 So that's really. Yeah. Yeah, so we could rip

off 1138 01:07:43.800 --> 01:07:45.300 Rudyard Kipling's heirs. 1139 01:07:47.480 --> 01:07:51.489 Well, that's like Scotty Young, for years with Eric Schanauer, 1140 01:07:51.909 --> 01:07:54.670 was doing the L. Frank Baum Oz books in the 2000s. 1141 01:07:54.869 --> 01:07:56.710 Oh, yeah. You're right. 1142 01:07:56.750 --> 01:07:58.469 I mean, and people are like, oh, Scotty, we miss 1143 01:07:58.489 --> 01:08:00.630 you on the X-Men and all the superhero stuff. And 1144 01:08:00.650 --> 01:08:04.550 Scotty's like, I'm having the time of my life adapting L. 1145 01:08:04.570 --> 01:08:05.550 Frank Baum. Yeah. 1146 01:08:05.909 --> 01:08:06.550 Yeah, sure. 1147 01:08:07.409 --> 01:08:09.969 Absolutely. No, I get it, man. That's great. That's fantastic. 1148 01:08:11.300 --> 01:08:14.679 Oh, I just pulled up Secret Wars 2 on my iPad, 1149 01:08:14.739 --> 01:08:16.359 and yeah, that's a pretty good cover. 1150 01:08:16.979 --> 01:08:17.520 Yeah, man. 1151 01:08:17.720 --> 01:08:19.270 Oh, my God, yes, absolutely. 1152 01:08:19.560 --> 01:08:21.529 No, there's several of them that you would, and a 1153 01:08:21.569 --> 01:08:23.909 couple as the series went on that you and Steve, 1154 01:08:23.949 --> 01:08:26.750 I think, co-did and everything, and maybe he did the 1155 01:08:26.789 --> 01:08:29.310 finishes or whatever. I see his name on some of 1156 01:08:29.350 --> 01:08:30.569 the credits of the later issues. 1157 01:08:30.949 --> 01:08:33.869 Yeah, on my covers, I would do full pencils. 1158 01:08:34.890 --> 01:08:35.310 That's cool. 1159 01:08:35.930 --> 01:08:36.750 Yeah, that's cool. 1160 01:08:37.130 --> 01:08:37.369 Very cool. 1161 01:08:37.390 --> 01:08:39.329 Because, you know, it was just one page. I could 1162 01:08:39.350 --> 01:08:42.619 take the time. But, oh, by the way, I never 1163 01:08:42.659 --> 01:08:48.960 finished saying that on Fanfare, once, you know, once Shooter 1164 01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:51.199 was breathing down my neck to get the damn thing 1165 01:08:51.239 --> 01:08:55.189 put together so we could publish it, you know, he said, 1166 01:08:55.229 --> 01:08:56.729 you know, and but, you know, Al, you should really 1167 01:08:56.770 --> 01:09:00.920 do an editorial in each issue. to tell the fans, 1168 01:09:00.939 --> 01:09:03.460 you know, what you were thinking and where the stuff 1169 01:09:03.479 --> 01:09:06.569 comes from. And, you know, you know, which, which, and 1170 01:09:06.609 --> 01:09:09.550 I just blanched because I, you know, I don't know 1171 01:09:09.609 --> 01:09:11.989 how many typewritten pages it would take to fill an 1172 01:09:12.029 --> 01:09:17.430 entire comic book page of copy, but I, I was 1173 01:09:17.489 --> 01:09:21.289 not eager to, to take that on. And I thought 1174 01:09:21.350 --> 01:09:26.989 about it, and I put a little note on a page, editorial. 1175 01:09:27.609 --> 01:09:30.270 And then I said, hey, wait a minute, editorial. Let 1176 01:09:30.300 --> 01:09:33.560 me put a dash in there. So it became editorial. 1177 01:09:33.619 --> 01:09:38.159 And I said, you know, Jim, could I do those 1178 01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:42.560 as a cartoon strip? And he said, I don't see 1179 01:09:42.600 --> 01:09:47.260 why not. And he also had a page in the 1180 01:09:47.319 --> 01:09:52.579 early fanfares, I believe, Shooter's... you know, shooter shooting from 1181 01:09:52.619 --> 01:09:54.239 the hip or something. I don't remember what it was, 1182 01:09:54.680 --> 01:09:59.319 but it, it was there. And, um, you know, so, 1183 01:09:59.390 --> 01:10:02.689 and that was a full page of typewritten stuff. So I, 1184 01:10:02.729 --> 01:10:05.890 you know, I always, I was always loathe to read 1185 01:10:06.050 --> 01:10:09.729 stuff in a comic book that was not comic material. I, 1186 01:10:09.909 --> 01:10:12.489 I didn't read that. I didn't, I, well, I, some 1187 01:10:12.529 --> 01:10:15.930 of the letter columns I would read, but, but not always. And, 1188 01:10:15.989 --> 01:10:18.789 you know, some of the soap boxes and stuff I 1189 01:10:18.829 --> 01:10:22.250 would read. And I don't think I ever read the, 1190 01:10:22.489 --> 01:10:24.430 you know, in the early days when you had to 1191 01:10:24.470 --> 01:10:28.710 have a page of written material to get second-class mailing 1192 01:10:28.770 --> 01:10:29.729 privileges or something. 1193 01:10:29.770 --> 01:10:32.529 Yes, the text pieces that were in the Golden Age. 1194 01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:35.500 It would be like a one- or two-page little fictional 1195 01:10:35.539 --> 01:10:36.359 story or something. 1196 01:10:36.539 --> 01:10:36.800 Yes. 1197 01:10:37.319 --> 01:10:40.300 Or educational things, like, you know, in the flash comics. 1198 01:10:40.739 --> 01:10:43.979 The fastest animals on Earth, you know, the cheetah can 1199 01:10:44.020 --> 01:10:46.840 run up to 90 miles an hour, the The Raya, 1200 01:10:46.880 --> 01:10:51.189 some kind of bird could run 60 miles an hour. Yeah, yeah. 1201 01:10:51.520 --> 01:10:53.350 You know. No, I hear you, man. 1202 01:10:53.430 --> 01:10:55.329 All those little filler things, absolutely. 1203 01:10:55.350 --> 01:10:57.250 Yeah, right. But, you know, and if they were in 1204 01:10:57.310 --> 01:11:00.010 comic form, I would read them. But if they were text, 1205 01:11:00.090 --> 01:11:03.930 I very rarely would. So I said, okay, I'm going 1206 01:11:03.949 --> 01:11:09.029 to go do, you know, a strip. And, you know, 1207 01:11:09.189 --> 01:11:11.140 and so that was fun for me, you know, and 1208 01:11:11.180 --> 01:11:13.859 I did it. And a lot of people, the first 1209 01:11:13.979 --> 01:11:15.840 one I did, they said, oh, Al, you're you're what 1210 01:11:15.859 --> 01:11:18.880 are you doing? Harvey Kurtzman. And I actually was not. 1211 01:11:19.319 --> 01:11:21.979 I knew I knew of Harvey Kurtzman. I knew his name. 1212 01:11:22.460 --> 01:11:25.739 I didn't know. I had no idea what his drawing 1213

01:11:25.760 --> 01:11:28.140 looked like. And he would I found out later he 1214 01:11:28.180 --> 01:11:30.739 had these little one page strips he would do called, 1215 01:11:30.760 --> 01:11:35.060 I think, Hey, you. And sure enough, they they were 1216 01:11:35.119 --> 01:11:39.060 not dissimilar from what I was doing. You know, Harvey 1217 01:11:39.100 --> 01:11:42.760 Kurtzman's a genius. and I'm just a schlep, but he was, 1218 01:11:42.800 --> 01:11:44.640 you know, he, you know, but I could see it. 1219 01:11:44.680 --> 01:11:46.659 I mean, I was, I, because I just, you know, 1220 01:11:46.680 --> 01:11:49.960 it was simple. It was cartoony. It was exaggerated. And, 1221 01:11:50.939 --> 01:11:53.460 you know, so I developed a style to, to suit that. 1222 01:11:54.060 --> 01:11:55.859 And then, so I, then I had, and, you know, 1223 01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:57.760 after the first three or four issues, it became a 1224 01:11:57.859 --> 01:12:02.260 huge chore because it was always the last thing I 1225 01:12:02.319 --> 01:12:04.460 did in every single issue of fanfare before I went 1226 01:12:04.479 --> 01:12:06.739 to press, I'd have to sit down and lay it 1227 01:12:06.859 --> 01:12:08.699 out and then come up with a, what I hoped 1228 01:12:08.779 --> 01:12:12.340 was a funny idea. funny concept. And I did the, 1229 01:12:12.420 --> 01:12:14.939 you know, I did the Ditko nine panel a page 1230 01:12:15.020 --> 01:12:18.899 grid for the most part. Yeah. And, um, I find that, 1231 01:12:18.930 --> 01:12:21.590 you know, I like that because you can do, you can, 1232 01:12:22.289 --> 01:12:24.590 you can keep it simple and, and not have to 1233 01:12:24.630 --> 01:12:26.729 get overly elaborate. And I didn't want to in that, 1234 01:12:27.010 --> 01:12:30.369 in that format anyway, but, um, you know, but I 1235 01:12:30.409 --> 01:12:33.939 think I, I, I did, I reread them now and I'm, 1236 01:12:34.140 --> 01:12:37.960 I'm pretty amused myself. I amuse myself. Um, no, it's like, 1237 01:12:37.979 --> 01:12:42.970 they're great. I'm laughing at my own jokes. And then 1238 01:12:42.979 --> 01:12:46.010 I had a little side career in the years following 1239 01:12:46.590 --> 01:12:52.449 doing editorial for reprints of Starlin stuff or my stuff or, 1240 01:12:53.090 --> 01:12:58.449 you know, various collected editions. People would call up and say, hey, Al, 1241 01:12:58.489 --> 01:13:00.449 can you want to do an introduction for such and such? 1242 01:13:00.949 --> 01:13:02.930 And I'd always say, can I do it as an editorial? 1243 01:13:02.970 --> 01:13:07.210 And usually they'd say yes. Sometimes they'd say no. And 1244 01:13:07.229 --> 01:13:09.159 I think it also... It may have had to do 1245 01:13:09.199 --> 01:13:11.119 with the budget, although I was willing to do it 1246 01:13:11.220 --> 01:13:13.920 on a on a cheaper, you know, because they had 1247 01:13:13.960 --> 01:13:18.810 to pay for script, penciling and inking of a, you know, comic. 1248 01:13:19.829 --> 01:13:24.270 And I think normally paying like an actual writer to 1249 01:13:24.729 --> 01:13:28.710 do a page of of just typewritten stuff was probably cheaper. 1250 01:13:28.850 --> 01:13:32.359 So and, you know, and it's more personal to me. 1251 01:13:32.520 --> 01:13:36.470 I that's my. You know, that's the thing I'm known for. Yeah. 1252 01:13:36.550 --> 01:13:39.090 So I thought, if I'm doing the introduction, let me 1253 01:13:39.130 --> 01:13:42.850 do one of these babies. So anyway, so even now, 1254 01:13:42.970 --> 01:13:49.069 even on these reprint omnibuses, or is it omnibuy that 1255 01:13:49.140 --> 01:13:55.079 Marvel's publishing, I'm doing a new two-page editorial for each edition. 1256 01:13:55.760 --> 01:13:58.600 Hey, that's great. Oh, that's so great to hear. And honestly, 1257 01:13:59.000 --> 01:14:01.619 at the same time, that's when Fred Hembeck was doing 1258 01:14:01.659 --> 01:14:04.779 his fun thing you know, little comic things. And that's 1259 01:14:04.819 --> 01:14:07.579 what I equated what you were doing with. And I'm like, Oh, 1260 01:14:07.840 --> 01:14:10.600 it's another guy doing funny stuff. Absolutely. This is good. 1261 01:14:10.640 --> 01:14:12.979 Yeah. I can see that. Yeah. I like Fred stuff 1262 01:14:13.020 --> 01:14:16.270 is great. And, and they will also get him to do, 1263 01:14:16.390 --> 01:14:18.909 you know, funny introductions to various things. They had a, 1264 01:14:19.510 --> 01:14:22.229 didn't they have a fantastic four roast where he was 1265 01:14:22.289 --> 01:14:26.930 the framing artist for everybody else? Yeah. Yeah. Oh no. 1266 01:14:26.970 --> 01:14:28.989 And I loved, yeah. I loved all the strips that 1267 01:14:29.010 --> 01:14:31.439 he did for both. DC and Marvel over the years. 1268 01:14:31.539 --> 01:14:33.720 I keep, you know, I'm kicking myself out. I, I 1269 01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:35.899 really sooner than later, I gave him a friend on 1270 01:14:35.939 --> 01:14:39.470 the show because I've always adored his work and everything. 1271 01:14:39.810 --> 01:14:40.449 He's amazing. 1272 01:14:40.590 --> 01:14:40.829 Yeah. 1273 01:14:40.850 --> 01:14:42.250 Brilliant guy. Brilliant guy. 1274 01:14:43.329 --> 01:14:45.689 Yeah. And he's got, you know, I don't know if 1275 01:14:45.770 --> 01:14:48.010 he makes his living drawing. I assume he may have 1276 01:14:48.050 --> 01:14:50.729 a side job, a real job as it were. Um, 1277 01:14:51.149 --> 01:14:52.979 but I always thought his stuff was, was a lot 1278 01:14:53.020 --> 01:14:55.819 of fun and very, you know, interesting to read and, and, 1279 01:14:56.119 --> 01:15:00.140 and funny. And, uh, So I very carefully avoided drawing 1280 01:15:00.680 --> 01:15:02.859 curly Q's on everybody's knees and elbows. 1281 01:15:05.119 --> 01:15:07.960 Or like the flapping feet that John Martin used to 1282 01:15:07.979 --> 01:15:10.399 put people on in Mad Magazine, too. 1283 01:15:10.640 -->

01:15:15.899 Right, right, yeah. So anyway, yeah, and it's nice, because 1284 01:15:15.960 --> 01:15:21.699 I have done, I actually did do, somebody hired me 1285 01:15:21.850 --> 01:15:31.220 to do reviews or critiques of several independent comics that, uh, 1286 01:15:31.880 --> 01:15:35.239 you know, that were being published. And he sent me 1287 01:15:35.279 --> 01:15:37.789 a whole stack of them. And I, you know, I 1288 01:15:37.829 --> 01:15:41.409 wanted to make sure I had once, uh, checked with shooter. 1289 01:15:41.430 --> 01:15:43.930 I said, look, I, I don't want Marvel to own my, 1290 01:15:44.489 --> 01:15:47.869 my caricature. I don't want them to own my likeness. Uh, 1291 01:15:48.569 --> 01:15:51.840 and he said, you know, yeah, I understand that. I said, 1292 01:15:51.859 --> 01:15:54.220 you know, I I'm doing editorial. I I'd like to 1293 01:15:54.260 --> 01:15:57.529 be able to use that caricature, uh, Uh, you know, 1294 01:15:57.609 --> 01:16:00.750 anytime I want, he says, hell, I can't imagine Marvel 1295 01:16:00.770 --> 01:16:05.340 wants to own you per se. And, um, he said, look, 1296 01:16:05.420 --> 01:16:08.640 if it comes down to it, uh, we'll lease, we'll 1297 01:16:08.680 --> 01:16:10.819 lease the character to you for like a dollar a year. 1298 01:16:10.840 --> 01:16:15.000 And I said, okay, great. So, so I, uh, I 1299 01:16:15.039 --> 01:16:17.979 went ahead and I did the series of these, uh, 1300 01:16:18.100 --> 01:16:22.449 reviews of various, I must've been seven, eight, nine other 1301 01:16:22.489 --> 01:16:24.710 damn things. I had to read through them all. I 1302 01:16:24.750 --> 01:16:26.710 got paid a little bit. I got paid some money, 1303 01:16:26.750 --> 01:16:29.760 but not much. But the guy also, he said, look, 1304 01:16:29.770 --> 01:16:32.180 I want you to do like a, you know, half 1305 01:16:32.199 --> 01:16:35.840 a dozen sketches of yourself. Because I said, you know, 1306 01:16:35.859 --> 01:16:37.140 what I'm going to do is I think we're going 1307 01:16:37.159 --> 01:16:41.340 to call it Critical. And we'll, and I, you know, 1308 01:16:41.380 --> 01:16:44.060 and I'll be critical of these publications. And I wrote, 1309 01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:49.220 you know, reviews to the best of my ability. And, 1310 01:16:49.760 --> 01:16:53.529 you know, and he used different, you know, caricatures of 1311 01:16:53.569 --> 01:16:56.840 me in each, in each review, I think. And it, uh, 1312 01:16:56.880 --> 01:16:59.260 you know, it turned out really well. And now, you know, I, uh, 1313 01:16:59.779 --> 01:17:01.060 I use it whenever I get the chance. 1314 01:17:01.920 --> 01:17:06.140 That's fantastic, man. And well-deserved. That's great. That's great to hear. Al, 1315 01:17:06.159 --> 01:17:09.810 you've been amazing with your time. And I, my God, uh, 1316 01:17:10.130 --> 01:17:12.449 can I, can I, I mean, obviously, and I should mention, 1317 01:17:12.750 --> 01:17:14.750 we're going to do a panel

terrific on, and this 1318 01:17:14.770 --> 01:17:17.869 will come out well before that, but, um, you know, 1319 01:17:17.949 --> 01:17:20.600 and we'll, we'll certainly talk more about yours and Jim's, 1320 01:17:21.229 --> 01:17:24.329 collaborations in the cosmic world that went on for, you know, 1321 01:17:24.350 --> 01:17:26.439 a long, long time. And I know you were involved 1322 01:17:26.460 --> 01:17:29.479 with a lot of the Infinity miniseries that came out 1323 01:17:29.500 --> 01:17:32.300 during the 90s and things like that. But there is 1324 01:17:32.359 --> 01:17:34.359 so much else of your comic career that we haven't 1325 01:17:34.380 --> 01:17:37.890 even touched. Can I bug you, like, six months down 1326 01:17:37.899 --> 01:17:39.869 the line or next year or something, and we could 1327 01:17:39.909 --> 01:17:41.189 talk more about some of this stuff? 1328 01:17:41.270 --> 01:17:45.909 Is that okay? It's okay on one condition. Talk to me. Okay. 1329 01:17:46.810 --> 01:17:48.729 I keep forgetting to do this, but when I go, 1330 01:17:48.869 --> 01:17:51.060 you know, I've done a number of podcasts now. And 1331 01:17:52.220 --> 01:17:53.399 I'd like to plug myself. 1332 01:17:54.000 --> 01:17:54.760 Of course. 1333 01:17:55.720 --> 01:17:59.939 I would like to give out my email address because 1334 01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:02.720 I have no online presence to speak of. I don't 1335 01:18:02.760 --> 01:18:05.500 have a website or anything like that. But I am 1336 01:18:05.579 --> 01:18:10.510 available to do commissions at reasonable rates. Or if you 1337 01:18:10.789 --> 01:18:13.229 don't go to shows and you need something autographed, I'm 1338 01:18:13.270 --> 01:18:15.550 willing to work through the mails. So I will now 1339 01:18:16.029 --> 01:18:20.279 read off my email address. And if you put in 1340 01:18:20.300 --> 01:18:30.029 the subject line, you know, commission, or I heard you on, um, um, whatever. Um, 1341 01:18:30.489 --> 01:18:32.909 and you want to contact me, I will send you 1342 01:18:32.930 --> 01:18:35.050 a list of my rates. And if, you know, if 1343 01:18:35.069 --> 01:18:38.770 you want some, some, uh, uh, an original drawing by, 1344 01:18:39.050 --> 01:18:42.729 by good old editorial, then, uh, it is possible to 1345 01:18:42.800 --> 01:18:46.409 obtain them. So now I will say it. And by 1346 01:18:46.430 --> 01:18:48.869 the way, you might want to put it up at 1347 01:18:48.909 --> 01:18:51.689 the top of the podcast also. Say, hey, Al wants 1348 01:18:51.729 --> 01:18:55.390 to let you guys know and give it then also. 1349 01:18:57.149 --> 01:19:05.520 Here it is. It's editorial4 at AOL.com. Now I will 1350 01:19:05.560 --> 01:19:16.229 spell that. It's E-D-I- T-O-R-I-A-L-4. That's the numeral, not spelled out. 1351 01:19:17.229 --> 01:19:24.689 Editorial4 at AOL.com. All right. So, you know, if you 1352 01:19:24.710 --> 01:19:27.720 need a nice little drawing to patch up a hole 1353 01:19:27.760 --> 01:19:31.779 in your wall, cover it somewhere. I'm the guy to see. 1354 01:19:32.279 --> 01:19:35.180 I'm probably cheaper than a spackle and paint job. 1355 01:19:35.949 --> 01:19:38.649 That's fantastic, Alan. I'm really glad that you are still 1356 01:19:38.689 --> 01:19:42.170 doing it, and I'm glad that people are hitting you 1357 01:19:42.210 --> 01:19:46.220 up on those kind of opportunities. And I'm very happy 1358 01:19:46.239 --> 01:19:49.119 to promote this for you. So, you know, I got 1359 01:19:49.140 --> 01:19:52.159 a few thousand listeners, so that's good. Oh, that many? 1360 01:19:52.239 --> 01:19:55.930 Okay. I was figuring, you know, maybe 42. Ten. But 1361 01:19:55.939 --> 01:20:02.439 thousands is good. Yeah, not bad. Commissioned, yeah. Excellent. 1362 01:20:02.479 --> 01:20:04.880 Well, you know, I've been doing the podcast for 20 1363 01:20:04.880 --> 01:20:06.979 years now, Al, and I'm so sorry that it's taken 1364 01:20:07.000 --> 01:20:11.869 this long to get you solo. We did a panel with, oh, God, 1365 01:20:11.909 --> 01:20:16.250 Master of Kung Fu. I'm blanking now, the artist. 1366 01:20:16.949 --> 01:20:17.529 Galaci? 1367 01:20:17.750 --> 01:20:20.369 Galaci, Paul, yeah. Yeah, me, you, and Paul did one. 1368 01:20:21.060 --> 01:20:21.220 Yeah. 1369 01:20:21.229 --> 01:20:22.779 Terrific, kind of, a couple years ago. But I'm looking 1370 01:20:22.800 --> 01:20:24.680 forward to it. You with Starlin. 1371 01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:25.779 And it is so. 1372 01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:28.760 Great because you'll have to retell people about the fact 1373 01:20:28.779 --> 01:20:31.680 that you guys have been friends since junior high. That's amazing. 1374 01:20:32.199 --> 01:20:34.159 And that you came into the biz together and everything. 1375 01:20:34.399 --> 01:20:36.970 And then we'll get into the Cosmic stuff. So, no, 1376 01:20:37.090 --> 01:20:39.189 it excites me even more to have this panel with 1377 01:20:39.229 --> 01:20:40.069 you in a couple weeks. 1378 01:20:40.689 --> 01:20:43.630 Okay. Well, thank you. I'm looking forward to that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, 1379 01:20:43.670 --> 01:20:44.189 thank you. 1380 01:20:44.250 --> 01:20:46.649 And again, I'll shake your hand in person. But thank 1381 01:20:46.670 --> 01:20:47.550 you so much for your time. 1382 01:20:47.569 --> 01:20:49.890 It's been amazing. Oh, my pleasure, John. And I think 1383 01:20:50.270 --> 01:20:53.630 I'm also doing a– I believe they're doing a tribute 1384 01:20:53.729 --> 01:20:54.989 panel to Jim Shooter. 1385 01:20:55.970 --> 01:20:58.529 Yes, and I wasn't certain because I don't know who's 1386 01:20:58.550 --> 01:20:59.989 on it and who isn't, so I'm glad if you're 1387 01:21:00.050 --> 01:21:03.350 on it. That's great, too. And, no, I'm really, really 1388 01:21:03.399 --> 01:21:07.300 excited about this. Every year Terrificon puts out great programming. 1389 01:21:07.319 --> 01:21:08.720 They do, yeah. And I'm not going to say that 1390

01:21:08.739 --> 01:21:11.319 because they're a sponsor. But, no, Mitch has become a 1391 01:21:11.380 --> 01:21:12.479 good friend over the years. 1392 01:21:12.960 --> 01:21:13.300 Yeah. 1393 01:21:13.319 --> 01:21:16.520 And I am always thrilled with the opportunity. That was 1394 01:21:16.560 --> 01:21:21.310 my one opportunity talking to Shooter was Terrificon. And I 1395 01:21:21.369 --> 01:21:23.789 treasure it, and I'm glad that I had that opportunity. 1396 01:21:23.810 --> 01:21:26.170 And I'm sad that he's not with us anymore because 1397 01:21:26.229 --> 01:21:28.010 I had a million more questions, but at least I 1398 01:21:28.050 --> 01:21:29.890 got an hour out of them. 1399 01:21:30.050 --> 01:21:34.270 And Jim had a great memory. Yes. I mean, sometimes 1400 01:21:35.449 --> 01:21:37.729 he remembered it his way a little more than I 1401 01:21:37.789 --> 01:21:43.020 remembered it, but that's human nature. And I had spoken 1402 01:21:43.069 --> 01:21:46.399 to him a few months back, and I knew that 1403 01:21:46.439 --> 01:21:51.939 he had a problem, that he had ill health. esophageal cancer. 1404 01:21:52.579 --> 01:21:55.199 And I was hoping he could beat it. And then 1405 01:21:55.239 --> 01:21:58.710 I saw him at the one day show, the Little 1406 01:21:58.770 --> 01:22:03.789 Giant Comic Con in New Hampshire. And he looked very 1407 01:22:04.250 --> 01:22:08.050 gaunt and very lost a ton of weight. But he 1408 01:22:08.069 --> 01:22:10.409 was in good spirits and we had a great chat. 1409 01:22:10.500 --> 01:22:13.380 And I had talked to him just prior to the 1410 01:22:13.420 --> 01:22:16.500 show because I knew he wasn't doing well. I wanted 1411 01:22:16.539 --> 01:22:19.939 to call and talk. And I saw the young lady 1412 01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:23.859 who was repping him at the time, Brittany, her name is, 1413 01:22:24.140 --> 01:22:29.600 and a really nice and cute as hell young lady. 1414 01:22:30.180 --> 01:22:33.600 And she was kind of watching out for him and 1415 01:22:34.079 --> 01:22:36.340 making sure he got around and so on. He was 1416 01:22:36.380 --> 01:22:41.319 in a wheelchair. Wow. Wow. Just because he was so weak. Sure. 1417 01:22:41.989 --> 01:22:44.289 And I saw her at another show and she said, no, 1418 01:22:44.310 --> 01:22:46.029 you know, Al, you ought to really give Jim a call. 1419 01:22:46.840 --> 01:22:49.159 I said, how's he doing? She goes, you know, he's struggling. 1420 01:22:49.220 --> 01:22:52.939 I said, okay, I definitely will. And I saw that 1421 01:22:52.979 --> 01:22:56.159 he was supposed to show up at the Heroes Con 1422 01:22:56.279 --> 01:22:59.470 in North Carolina. And so I thought, okay, you know, 1423 01:22:59.630 --> 01:23:01.470 that's good. I'll see him there. And then I'll, you know, 1424 01:23:01.489 --> 01:23:04.229 then I'll try to call him on a more regular basis. 1425 01:23:05.069 --> 01:23:07.390 And he didn't come to the show because apparently he 1426 01:23:07.430 --> 01:23:10.500 was too weak. And I said, oh, you know, I really, 1427 01:23:10.659 --> 01:23:13.500 and I literally, I had a list. I had a 1428 01:23:13.560 --> 01:23:16.710 to-do list. of two or three, you know, commissions I 1429 01:23:16.750 --> 01:23:19.250 had to finish for people from that show, but also, 1430 01:23:19.270 --> 01:23:22.250 you know, very close to the top was call Jim and, 1431 01:23:22.289 --> 01:23:23.890 you know, see, you know, see how he's doing, try 1432 01:23:23.909 --> 01:23:25.449 to cheer him up a little, that kind of thing. 1433 01:23:25.949 --> 01:23:28.100 And he, and then like literally a day later, he, 1434 01:23:28.220 --> 01:23:30.859 he had passed away. And I said, oh man, that, 1435 01:23:30.899 --> 01:23:33.800 you know, what, why was, why was I hesitating? Why 1436 01:23:33.819 --> 01:23:37.239 did I, you know, I should have called him like ASAP. 1437 01:23:37.979 --> 01:23:39.739 And I feel bad that I didn't get at least 1438 01:23:39.819 --> 01:23:42.079 one last chance to talk with him. But the last 1439 01:23:42.100 --> 01:23:45.010 time I did see him, I got a couple laughs 1440 01:23:45.109 --> 01:23:47.789 out of him. We, you know, took our usual stroll 1441 01:23:47.810 --> 01:23:52.210 down memory lane. And, you know, I think I think 1442 01:23:52.250 --> 01:23:55.329 he knew he was, you know, appreciated by a lot 1443 01:23:55.369 --> 01:23:55.750 of people. 1444 01:23:56.789 --> 01:23:59.050 That's great. That's great to hear. And yes, I mean, 1445 01:23:59.069 --> 01:24:02.149 an amazing force. And I understand the divisive force, depending 1446 01:24:02.170 --> 01:24:04.510 on who you talk to, including some people that will 1447 01:24:04.529 --> 01:24:06.109 be a terrific kind of probably won't be on that 1448 01:24:06.149 --> 01:24:10.189 tribute panel. But yeah, that's OK. People, people are complicated, 1449 01:24:10.260 --> 01:24:10.460 you know. 1450 01:24:11.130 --> 01:24:15.300 It's true, and he was in a position where it's 1451 01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:21.439 a tough job being the boss. Absolutely. And he did 1452 01:24:21.479 --> 01:24:24.520 some great things at Marvel and some great things for 1453 01:24:24.579 --> 01:24:26.119 freelancers in general. 1454 01:24:26.800 --> 01:24:28.100 No question. 1455 01:24:29.279 --> 01:24:33.220 When DC threatened to pay royalties, he got Marvel to 1456 01:24:33.279 --> 01:24:36.270 match the deal, even though it was going to cost 1457 01:24:36.329 --> 01:24:38.069 Marvel a lot more money than it was going to 1458 01:24:38.090 --> 01:24:41.670 cost DC in the instance. Um, cause our books, you know, 1459 01:24:41.710 --> 01:24:44.460 sales were higher and the royalties would have been much greater, 1460 01:24:44.920 --> 01:24:48.220 but he convinced him that he, uh, he, he made 1461 01:24:48.260 --> 01:24:50.140 it clear that he thought the artists should be getting 1462 01:24:50.180 --> 01:24:54.170 their artwork back. Um, I think that was,

uh, in 1463 01:24:54.229 --> 01:24:57.170 great part due to his pushing. I don't remember if 1464 01:24:57.229 --> 01:25:01.250 it was anything earlier than that or not, but, um, 1465 01:25:01.729 --> 01:25:07.050 and he, um, He said, I don't want any of 1466 01:25:07.130 --> 01:25:09.970 the people working for me to wind up like Siegel 1467 01:25:10.010 --> 01:25:13.140 and Schuster, where they create a character who ends up 1468 01:25:13.180 --> 01:25:17.819 being a valuable property, and they're still struggling and working 1469 01:25:19.260 --> 01:25:23.880 page rates to make a living. And I thought that 1470 01:25:24.140 --> 01:25:26.560 that showed a good sense of history and a good 1471 01:25:26.600 --> 01:25:29.340 sense of fair play. And he did, in fact, get 1472 01:25:29.359 --> 01:25:34.340 a thing in place called called the New Character Agreements, 1473 01:25:35.000 --> 01:25:38.300 which every time you created a new character, Marvel would 1474 01:25:38.340 --> 01:25:41.359 send you a paper, and it said that you would 1475 01:25:41.420 --> 01:25:50.850 have a certain amount of participation in any future ancillary 1476 01:25:51.470 --> 01:25:54.890 products using your characters that you created. So if he 1477 01:25:54.930 --> 01:25:57.409 was in a movie or a TV show or a 1478 01:25:57.449 --> 01:26:02.060 video game, or a bobblehead or lunchboxes, whatever it might be, 1479 01:26:02.119 --> 01:26:06.659 coloring books, you would get a piece of the action. Yeah. Yeah, 1480 01:26:06.800 --> 01:26:12.470 and actually now Disney is doing their damnedest to retrofit 1481 01:26:12.529 --> 01:26:17.649 that so that it's no longer the case because, you know, 1482 01:26:17.710 --> 01:26:22.829 they bought Marvel and they assumed that they now owned 1483 01:26:22.909 --> 01:26:26.680 everything lock, stock, and barrel. But they didn't take into 1484 01:26:26.699 --> 01:26:29.779 account these new character agreements. 1485 01:26:30.100 --> 01:26:32.899 Even further, as I understood it, Quesada had to talk 1486 01:26:32.939 --> 01:26:35.869 to the Disney guys when Joe was still the editor-in-chief 1487 01:26:36.270 --> 01:26:41.890 and explain guys like yourself that are allowed to continually 1488 01:26:41.949 --> 01:26:47.630 do commissions and recreations of Marvel characters without any kickback 1489 01:26:47.670 --> 01:26:50.449 to Disney or anything. And, you know, yeah, Joe had 1490 01:26:50.470 --> 01:26:53.890 to make that explanation. And listen, again, I'm not trying 1491 01:26:53.909 --> 01:26:56.770 to make apologies for corporations, but they have kind of 1492 01:26:56.800 --> 01:27:00.520 these faceless, monolithic things of, well, we didn't make that deal. 1493 01:27:00.560 --> 01:27:04.079 Why should we be beholden to it? So it's tough, 1494 01:27:04.140 --> 01:27:07.119 and you need guys like Quesada and Schroeder to explain 1495 01:27:07.159 --> 01:27:10.600 to the upstairs people, no, you really need to do this, 1496 01:27:10.979 --> 01:27:15.300 and it's always been okay. Or this is something new 1497 01:27:15.680 --> 01:27:18.439 to introduce where these guys deserve it. They're the creators 1498 01:27:18.500 --> 01:27:20.760 of this stuff. And I know Lawrence was like that 1499 01:27:20.840 --> 01:27:23.479 at DC as well, as long as he was publisher. 1500 01:27:23.859 --> 01:27:25.079 Yeah. 1501 01:27:25.220 --> 01:27:27.520 So it's tough. And I'm glad there are lawyers out 1502 01:27:27.560 --> 01:27:30.720 there that are making sure guys are getting compensated for 1503 01:27:30.739 --> 01:27:33.180 the things they created. So I don't remember the one 1504 01:27:33.199 --> 01:27:35.119 guy's name, but I know Chaykin and a few others 1505 01:27:35.520 --> 01:27:38.770 have used the same lawyer over the years to kind 1506 01:27:38.810 --> 01:27:40.850 of go, you know, actually, I created that and I 1507 01:27:40.869 --> 01:27:45.250 deserve some sort of money. Yeah. Yeah. 1508 01:27:45.289 --> 01:27:53.479 Well, what happened with disney is that uh they have 1509 01:27:53.539 --> 01:27:58.760 now crafted a new uh what's called a special character 1510 01:27:58.800 --> 01:28:03.579 agreement which uh supersedes the new character agreement but you 1511 01:28:03.619 --> 01:28:06.979 have to sign off on it and uh you know 1512 01:28:07.119 --> 01:28:08.960 i know there have been a number i think when 1513 01:28:09.060 --> 01:28:13.100 i think disney realized uh when the first avengers movie 1514 01:28:13.119 --> 01:28:16.550 came out and thanos appeared in the very last scene 1515 01:28:16.590 --> 01:28:19.550 of the movie well nearly the last scene and uh 1516 01:28:20.949 --> 01:28:24.479 I'm sure Disney was going, what a deal. We bought 1517 01:28:24.500 --> 01:28:27.140 this company for $ 3 billion, and look, we're going to 1518 01:28:27.159 --> 01:28:32.159 make it back in the very first movie. And then 1519 01:28:32.199 --> 01:28:35.949 probably somebody said, well, of course, Starlin's going to get 1520 01:28:35.989 --> 01:28:38.649 some of that. And they went, what is this Starlin 1521 01:28:38.689 --> 01:28:39.470 you're talking about? 1522 01:28:39.510 --> 01:28:39.590 Yeah. 1523 01:28:40.560 --> 01:28:45.079 Well, he created Thanos. Oh, well, yeah, but we own Thanos. Well, yeah, 1524 01:28:45.300 --> 01:28:49.420 but Jim signed this new character agreement with Marvel in 1525 01:28:49.439 --> 01:28:53.100 the old days, which entitles him to a piece of 1526 01:28:53.159 --> 01:28:56.779 that action. And I'm sure Disney was just horrified. Yeah. 1527 01:28:57.369 --> 01:29:00.989 So now, you know, I know that I don't know 1528 01:29:01.050 --> 01:29:04.109 the details, but I know that both he and Simonson, 1529 01:29:04.649 --> 01:29:07.069 who created the Dark Elf, who appeared in the second 1530 01:29:07.130 --> 01:29:10.489 Thor movie, you know, Disney just went ahead and made 1531 01:29:10.520 --> 01:29:14.699 the movies, didn't ever check to see

that, you know, 1532 01:29:14.720 --> 01:29:20.119 because why would they print anybody else's rights? And so 1533 01:29:21.260 --> 01:29:24.899 they had a lawyer and they negotiated a settlement and 1534 01:29:24.960 --> 01:29:29.449 they both Tell me they were very satisfied, which good 1535 01:29:29.489 --> 01:29:32.949 for them. But, you know, they had the advantage of, 1536 01:29:33.149 --> 01:29:35.489 you know, the stuff was already used in the movies. So, 1537 01:29:35.930 --> 01:29:42.430 you know, there's no backseat, you know. So now, you know, 1538 01:29:42.489 --> 01:29:45.149 Disney does want, you know, they're trying to get everybody 1539 01:29:45.210 --> 01:29:48.069 who worked for Marvel in the day to sign these 1540 01:29:48.829 --> 01:29:52.470 special character agreements. Interesting. Yeah, man. 1541 01:29:52.869 --> 01:29:55.029 No, great insight, Al. I appreciate it, man. 1542 01:29:55.060 --> 01:29:56.670 Yeah. Yeah. 1543 01:29:57.149 --> 01:29:58.989 Well, again, I feel like I'm keeping you from dinner 1544 01:29:59.010 --> 01:29:59.470 or something. 1545 01:29:59.489 --> 01:30:02.989 I don't know. No, no, we're going shortly, but so 1546 01:30:03.029 --> 01:30:07.430 far you're still under the wire. Beautiful. I do go on, 1547 01:30:07.590 --> 01:30:08.149 as they say. 1548 01:30:08.170 --> 01:30:12.159 Al, do not even consider this like, oh, I'm sorry 1549 01:30:12.180 --> 01:30:14.899 if I'm, you know, tangents and everything. That is one 1550 01:30:14.939 --> 01:30:17.720 of the greatest things about my show, and truly the 1551 01:30:17.760 --> 01:30:20.579 great thing is my listeners and viewers, will then come 1552 01:30:20.600 --> 01:30:23.260 to you and say, hey, I heard about this thing 1553 01:30:23.279 --> 01:30:25.180 that you talked about on WordBullet, and it's the greatest 1554 01:30:25.220 --> 01:30:28.279 compliment to my show. But it's just, no, they love this. 1555 01:30:28.439 --> 01:30:30.880 And truly, the stories you've told about the Golden Age 1556 01:30:31.859 --> 01:30:34.920 artists and everything and all this stuff, and especially even 1557 01:30:34.939 --> 01:30:38.060 the special character stuff that did the writer at the end, no, 1558 01:30:38.079 --> 01:30:41.119 this is great inside information that I think, because a 1559 01:30:41.119 --> 01:30:43.270 lot of times, you know, somebody who watches a movie 1560 01:30:43.350 --> 01:30:45.939 or reads a comic and assumes, oh, well, of course, 1561 01:30:46.000 --> 01:30:50.680 you know, Len Wein needed to get Hugh Jackman embarrassing 1562 01:30:50.739 --> 01:30:54.140 Disney pointing to Len Wein at the premiere of Logan 1563 01:30:54.460 --> 01:30:56.060 and saying, I would not be on this stage if 1564 01:30:56.119 --> 01:30:58.319 it wasn't for this man, the man who created Wolverine. 1565 01:30:58.659 --> 01:31:01.020 And it's like, yeah. And thank God they, you know, 1566 01:31:01.060 --> 01:31:03.100 they took care of Len before he passed away. God 1567 01:31:03.119 --> 01:31:04.760 bless him. 1568 01:31:05.140 --> 01:31:07.319 That's good to hear. Yeah, that's another guy. I can't 1569 01:31:07.350 --> 01:31:11.689 believe he's gone so young. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, 1570 01:31:11.989 --> 01:31:15.569 that is one nice thing. There's a lawyer. who has 1571 01:31:15.609 --> 01:31:21.430 helped me in some other scenarios, named Lawrence Klein. And Lawrence, 1572 01:31:21.689 --> 01:31:26.329 he knows the business. He's a fan. And he, I 1573 01:31:26.369 --> 01:31:31.050 know he's worked with Dave, you know, Patey Cockrum, Dave 1574 01:31:31.069 --> 01:31:37.180 Cockrum's widow. Yeah. And Bill Mantlo, who is unfortunately brain 1575 01:31:37.220 --> 01:31:41.699 damaged and can't really function in the real world. And 1576 01:31:41.720 --> 01:31:44.579 his brother was his caretaker for many years. But he 1577 01:31:44.640 --> 01:31:49.520 passed away within the last few years, I believe. But 1578 01:31:49.600 --> 01:31:53.050 he has done, I think, a lot of work on 1579 01:31:53.069 --> 01:31:56.289 the part of these people who would really, you know, 1580 01:31:56.369 --> 01:32:00.430 fall through the cracks, who created, I mean, Manlo created 1581 01:32:00.510 --> 01:32:03.949 a lot of stuff for Marvel. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 1582 01:32:04.090 --> 01:32:09.619 By happy coincidence has gone on to, you know, movie success. 1583 01:32:10.220 --> 01:32:12.479 You know, Rocket Raccoon, of course, is his. 1584 01:32:12.500 --> 01:32:13.300 Yeah. 1585 01:32:14.060 --> 01:32:17.880 You know, and there's, there's many others. Um, you know, 1586 01:32:17.899 --> 01:32:20.399 and I think Bill, well, Bill was, you know, that's 1587 01:32:20.500 --> 01:32:23.220 actually one of the stories I usually tell about Bill 1588 01:32:23.300 --> 01:32:26.460 being the writer on the first, um, on the first 1589 01:32:26.500 --> 01:32:31.260 penciling job that, uh, that, um, um, Mike Mignola did 1590 01:32:31.279 --> 01:32:35.430 because Mike wanted to be an anchor. And I said, 1591 01:32:35.470 --> 01:32:37.909 what's wrong with you? You know, nobody wants to be 1592 01:32:37.949 --> 01:32:42.569 an anchor and, uh, any, any, And he did get 1593 01:32:42.609 --> 01:32:46.149 a couple of inking jobs up at Marvel, and then 1594 01:32:46.189 --> 01:32:50.729 he didn't get any follow-up jobs. And the inking he 1595 01:32:50.760 --> 01:32:55.500 did was okay, but it wasn't great. And I said, listen, 1596 01:32:55.560 --> 01:33:00.039 you know, Mike, the reason you got these inking jobs 1597 01:33:00.119 --> 01:33:04.010 is because your samples look terrific. And the samples are 1598 01:33:04.149 --> 01:33:08.010 all your pencils inked by you. So, you know, you 1599 01:33:08.050 --> 01:33:10.770 didn't do anything to embellish these other pencilers, but your 1600 01:33:10.909 --> 01:33:13.529 own samples are great. I said, why don't you, you know, 1601 01:33:14.260 --> 01:33:16.189 and he was, oh, I can't

make a living. And 1602 01:33:16.300 --> 01:33:19.399 I'm in New York is so expensive. I'm from the 1603 01:33:19.439 --> 01:33:22.100 West Coast, blah, blah, blah. I said, so, you know, listen, 1604 01:33:22.659 --> 01:33:25.640 stop fighting me. I want you to do some penciling. And, 1605 01:33:25.659 --> 01:33:27.760 you know, so I said, do a job for me 1606 01:33:27.800 --> 01:33:30.680 for Marvel Fanfare. And it pays right in the half. 1607 01:33:30.739 --> 01:33:34.060 So it'll be good money. And he and then he said, well, 1608 01:33:34.079 --> 01:33:36.500 I don't like superheroes. I said, oh, come on, Bill. 1609 01:33:36.909 --> 01:33:38.100 I said, you know, I was trying, I said, I'll 1610 01:33:38.119 --> 01:33:40.199 tailor it to your every desire. You know, tell me 1611 01:33:40.239 --> 01:33:42.039 what you want to draw and I will do it. 1612 01:33:42.260 --> 01:33:45.100 I'll get a story for you that just, you know, 1613 01:33:45.119 --> 01:33:48.699 you know, hits all your, all your strong suits. So 1614 01:33:48.760 --> 01:33:50.800 he said, well, I don't like superheroes. I said, you know, 1615 01:33:50.859 --> 01:33:54.750 it's Marvel comics. What, that's all we do with superheroes. 1616 01:33:54.789 --> 01:33:55.449 What you don't like. 1617 01:33:57.270 --> 01:33:59.390 I said, come on, man, work with me here. I said, 1618 01:34:00.529 --> 01:34:03.250 there must be somebody there, you know, something drew you 1619 01:34:03.350 --> 01:34:06.289 to the comics industry and, and made you want to 1620 01:34:06.710 --> 01:34:09.859 even just be an inker, there must be a character. 1621 01:34:09.899 --> 01:34:12.199 He goes, well, I kind of like Submariner. I said, okay, 1622 01:34:12.619 --> 01:34:14.520 I get it. He doesn't wear the cape and the trunks, 1623 01:34:14.619 --> 01:34:18.479 but he's, you know, so he's, you know, sometimes more 1624 01:34:18.500 --> 01:34:19.359 of an anti-hero. 1625 01:34:20.229 --> 01:34:20.890 I said, what else? 1626 01:34:20.930 --> 01:34:23.130 He says, I like drawing animals. I said, great. Nobody 1627 01:34:23.170 --> 01:34:25.689 likes to draw animals, but good for you. I said, 1628 01:34:25.750 --> 01:34:29.430 anything else? He goes, sorcery, magic, something. I said, okay. 1629 01:34:29.449 --> 01:34:31.550 And I said, go home. I'll call you. And I 1630 01:34:31.590 --> 01:34:33.850 called up Bill Mantlo, and I said, Bill, I need 1631 01:34:33.869 --> 01:34:37.050 you to do a 10-page story for Fanfare. I got 1632 01:34:37.090 --> 01:34:40.689 this reluctant young artist. He's a pain in my ass, 1633 01:34:40.729 --> 01:34:43.579 but he's really talented. And, you know, I said, I 1634 01:34:43.619 --> 01:34:50.539 need the Submariner, animals, and sorcery. And he didn't say, 1635 01:34:50.699 --> 01:34:53.060 what the hell are you talking about? He said, okay, Al. 1636 01:34:54.770 --> 01:34:56.970 And he hung up. And a few days later, he 1637 01:34:57.010 --> 01:35:00.119 comes into the office with this great plot. for a 1638 01:35:00.119 --> 01:35:03.920 10-page Submariner story. I won't go into it now because 1639 01:35:04.020 --> 01:35:07.739 we may do another podcast in the future. But the 1640 01:35:07.779 --> 01:35:11.310 bottom line is it was a wonderful little story. Mike 1641 01:35:11.359 --> 01:35:15.050 drew the hell out of it. You know, Bill scripted it, 1642 01:35:15.090 --> 01:35:17.779 got it lettered. You know, Mike came in, picked it up, 1643 01:35:17.810 --> 01:35:21.109 took it home, inked it, looked great. And I said, Mike, 1644 01:35:22.170 --> 01:35:24.590 how do you feel about that? He says, you know, 1645 01:35:24.630 --> 01:35:27.350 I really enjoyed that. I said, good. Want to do more? 1646 01:35:27.430 --> 01:35:30.909 And he said, yeah, I do. So I said, okay. 1647 01:35:31.130 --> 01:35:35.750 I said, listen, so you want another Subby story? He says, yeah, 1648 01:35:35.810 --> 01:35:38.409 Submariner's good. I said, go home. I'll call you. And 1649 01:35:38.449 --> 01:35:41.369 I called Bill up and I said, Bill, can you 1650 01:35:41.409 --> 01:35:43.670 do me another Submariner story for that pain in my 1651 01:35:43.750 --> 01:35:46.979 ass Mike Mignola? And he said, yeah. He says, and 1652 01:35:46.989 --> 01:35:49.109 you know that he did a really nice job on that. 1653 01:35:49.220 --> 01:35:51.840 I said, I know. And he wants to be an inker. 1654 01:35:52.159 --> 01:35:55.479 And Bill said, what? Nobody wants to be an inker. Anyway, so... 1655 01:35:56.449 --> 01:35:59.449 So they did another one, and now I called up 1656 01:35:59.489 --> 01:36:00.880 Mike to come in and get it so he could 1657 01:36:00.939 --> 01:36:02.449 ink it, and he said, I don't want to ink it. 1658 01:36:02.579 --> 01:36:07.199 And I said, you're killing me. You don't want to 1659 01:36:07.279 --> 01:36:09.359 ink it. You want it to be an inker. So here, 1660 01:36:09.479 --> 01:36:12.520 ink yourself. He goes, no, no, I penciled it really tight, 1661 01:36:12.579 --> 01:36:15.649 and I feel like I'd just be repeating myself. I said, okay, 1662 01:36:15.659 --> 01:36:17.869 you know, rate and a half, Marvel fanfare. No, no. 1663 01:36:17.909 --> 01:36:22.229 He said, okay, suit yourself. So I got Craig Russell 1664 01:36:22.250 --> 01:36:23.250 to ink it, by the way. 1665 01:36:23.270 --> 01:36:23.750 Wow. 1666 01:36:25.489 --> 01:36:28.670 So there you go, another very good artist that he 1667 01:36:28.729 --> 01:36:32.189 did a beautiful job inking. And now Bill calls me 1668 01:36:32.270 --> 01:36:37.050 up and says, Al, you know that Mignola guy? I 1669 01:36:37.109 --> 01:36:39.409 really like his stuff. He did such a nice job 1670 01:36:39.470 --> 01:36:41.729 on those sub-histories. He said, you know, I've been wanting 1671 01:36:41.770 --> 01:36:47.180 to do a Rocket Raccoon miniseries. I said, who the 1672 01:36:47.220 --> 01:36:50.039 hell is Rocket Raccoon? I don't know if I, maybe 1673 01:36:50.060 -->

01:36:51.680 I'd already drawn him on that. Yeah, I must have 1674 01:36:51.699 --> 01:36:53.699 drawn him on that Hulk cover. So I did know 1675 01:36:53.739 --> 01:36:56.220 the character. But, you know, Bill created them in one 1676 01:36:56.260 --> 01:37:00.550 of the black and white magazines with Starhawk and whatever else. 1677 01:37:01.359 --> 01:37:04.890 And I said, really? Rocket Raccoon gets his own series? 1678 01:37:04.909 --> 01:37:07.569 He goes, yeah, I think it'd be great. So he, 1679 01:37:08.109 --> 01:37:11.029 you know, we got a hold of Mike. We said, Mike, 1680 01:37:11.090 --> 01:37:15.050 Bill wants to work with you on this series. And 1681 01:37:15.350 --> 01:37:17.550 it's got animals, which we know you love to draw. 1682 01:37:17.569 --> 01:37:20.310 And he says, oh, yeah. So he did it. And 1683 01:37:20.350 --> 01:37:25.670 it was terrific. It looked great. And... You know, and then, 1684 01:37:25.829 --> 01:37:28.430 you know, Mike is off and running. He becomes a superstar. 1685 01:37:29.210 --> 01:37:33.050 He was laying out the Hulk. He was doing covers 1686 01:37:33.109 --> 01:37:37.449 for Marvel. He's doing covers for DC. He might have, 1687 01:37:37.470 --> 01:37:39.409 I don't know if he kicked off Bob Harris because 1688 01:37:39.449 --> 01:37:42.239 he was doing covers for DC, but I know he 1689 01:37:42.260 --> 01:37:44.560 was doing some of the X books, the X book 1690 01:37:44.619 --> 01:37:47.619 covers at Marvel and so on. And the next thing 1691 01:37:47.640 --> 01:37:50.579 you know, he's over at Dark Horse and doing creator 1692 01:37:50.640 --> 01:37:54.949 own stuff and creates, you know, Hell boy. And, you know, 1693 01:37:55.310 --> 01:37:57.890 I assume he's now making a lot of money off 1694 01:37:57.930 --> 01:37:59.710 the movies. So I hope so anyway. 1695 01:38:00.430 --> 01:38:03.949 And he's still doing stuff and he's still writing a lot. 1696 01:38:04.750 --> 01:38:06.300 He doesn't draw as much as he used to, but 1697 01:38:06.560 --> 01:38:10.760 he certainly does a lot of writing stuff. No, that's fantastic. Outstanding, man. 1698 01:38:11.000 --> 01:38:13.140 So there's another one of the guys I gave their 1699 01:38:13.159 --> 01:38:17.680 first job to. There's others. I gave Rick Leonardi his 1700 01:38:17.819 --> 01:38:21.500 first job. I gave Kevin Nolan his first job. Wow. 1701 01:38:22.140 --> 01:38:24.579 I like to say, this will be the last comment, 1702 01:38:24.640 --> 01:38:27.329 but I like to say that I got so many 1703 01:38:27.609 --> 01:38:31.989 really talented young artists into the business. Oh, Brett Levin 1704 01:38:32.149 --> 01:38:35.520 was another guy I worked with early on and gave him, 1705 01:38:35.600 --> 01:38:36.260 I think. 1706 01:38:36.060 --> 01:38:37.680 Kevin and Brett are going to be a terrific on 1707 01:38:37.699 --> 01:38:38.600 with you. So that's cool. 1708 01:38:39.159 --> 01:38:41.899 Yeah. Always, always. And, and to a certain degree, I 1709 01:38:41.920 --> 01:38:46.460 was responsible for Ron friends. Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, shooter 1710 01:38:46.520 --> 01:38:49.329 went to a show in Pittsburgh and, came back with 1711 01:38:49.369 --> 01:38:52.510 his samples, and I said, this guy's really good. He goes, yeah, yeah, 1712 01:38:52.750 --> 01:38:55.529 he does animation. He works for an animation studio there. 1713 01:38:56.409 --> 01:39:00.069 And one time, I think Wheezy needed an artist for 1714 01:39:00.109 --> 01:39:02.770 an issue, and nobody seemed to be available. And I said, 1715 01:39:02.789 --> 01:39:05.149 wait a minute, I got pages in the drawer, and 1716 01:39:05.189 --> 01:39:07.670 I hauled out these Ron Friends pages. He said, oh, yeah, 1717 01:39:07.710 --> 01:39:10.390 he's good. And so he did a job for her, 1718 01:39:10.470 --> 01:39:15.810 and then countless jobs for Marvel over the years. So So, yeah, 1719 01:39:15.869 --> 01:39:17.550 all these guys, you know, but what I say is 1720 01:39:17.590 --> 01:39:21.430 I got so many talented artists into the business that 1721 01:39:21.449 --> 01:39:23.229 they no longer had any room in it for me. 1722 01:39:23.489 --> 01:39:32.359 So out I went. That's only half in jest. I 1723 01:39:32.439 --> 01:39:33.140 understand that. 1724 01:39:33.199 --> 01:39:37.239 And I believe me, I've started people in radio that 1725 01:39:37.279 --> 01:39:40.750 have surpassed me in their broadcasting career. So I get it. 1726 01:39:41.439 --> 01:39:46.069 There you go. Yeah. Outstanding, Al. Outstanding. 1727 01:39:46.890 --> 01:39:49.810 Well, seriously, man, this is great. I really, really appreciate it. 1728 01:39:50.029 --> 01:39:52.390 My God, Al, this is going to be like, I think, 1729 01:39:52.430 --> 01:39:56.720 almost a four-part podcast because of the directions we went into, 1730 01:39:56.960 --> 01:39:57.840 but all great. 1731 01:39:58.460 --> 01:39:58.880 Okay. 1732 01:39:58.899 --> 01:40:01.979 Looking forward to seeing you in two weeks at Terrificon. 1733 01:40:02.420 --> 01:40:05.899 And be sure to get my– if you're breaking this 1734 01:40:05.920 --> 01:40:12.489 down into multi-podcasts, Give my solicitation for commissions at each one, please. 1735 01:40:12.890 --> 01:40:15.529 You got it. You got it. I'm happy to do that, Al. 1736 01:40:15.850 --> 01:40:17.449 Got to keep my hand in. Thanks a lot, man. 1737 01:40:17.649 --> 01:40:20.699 Oh, 100%, man. No, we want you out there, and 1738 01:40:20.720 --> 01:40:22.699 the fans want you out there, and it's great to 1739 01:40:22.739 --> 01:40:25.100 know that they can still get great work from Al Milgram, 1740 01:40:25.119 --> 01:40:25.680 so thank you. 1741 01:40:26.359 --> 01:40:29.050 Okay, well, I appreciate the compliment, and thank you very much.