บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Saving Design w/ David Eisner | Wireframe Live

up websites back in the day. But 00:02:09.160 --> 00:02:10.910 to actually make it interactive, you 00:02:10.920 --> 00:02:14.270 needed to code. So I was I was forced to 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:15.750 code in order to to bring that 00:02:15.760 --> 00:02:17.790 interactivity back, and I've always like 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:19.550 towed that line. 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:21.630 Um so what was your like background when 00:02:21.640 --> 00:02:23.510 you when you kind of started in in the 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:25.990 design and engineering kind of uh you 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:28.030 know uh uh teeter-totter? 00:02:28.040 --> 00:02:29.710 >> So I went to I I didn't know exactly 00:02:29.720 --> 00:02:30.670 what I wanted to do when I went to 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:31.990 school, and so I was interested in 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:33.550 technology and design. I ended up at 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:35.790 Carnegie Mellon, and you know, it was 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:37.430 the it was it was just a place where 00:02:37.440 --> 00:02:40.070 they had everything was just infused 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:41.470 with technology, whether or not you sort 00:02:41.480 --> 00:02:43.670 of expected or not. So like the art 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:45.270 school was infused with technology. The 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:46.230 design school was infused with 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:48.390 technology. And so it's sort of like 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:49.990 you. You know, I started doing a lot of 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:51.590 things there, and you know, we were 00:02:51.600 --> 00:02:53.670 doing things in Lingo, you know, to kind 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:55.310 of you know, do our thing, and and all 00:02:55.320 --> 00:02:57.910 those things. And it was But yeah, and 00:02:57.920 --> 00:02:59.630 so there was a lot of 3D modeling things 00:02:59.640 --> 00:03:00.870 going on. And so there there was a 00:03:00.880 --> 00:03:03.390 really big overlap between pushing using 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:04.949 technology to kind of push art and 00:03:04.959 --> 00:03:07.150 design and going back and forth. And it 00:03:07.160 --> 00:03:08.990 was it was so connected. Like there 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:10.470 wasn't this separation of like, "Oh, 00:03:10.480 --> 00:03:12.430 this is you know, this is coding for 00:03:12.440 --> 00:03:13.949 this area, this is design over here." It 00:03:13.959 --> 00:03:15.790 was like, "How can we leverage all these 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:18.070 interesting things to create something?" 00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:20.310 And so there was a lot of overlap both 00:03:20.320 --> 00:03:21.710 in terms of people actually even 00:03:21.720 --> 00:03:23.750 collaborating or just I think even 00:03:23.760 --> 00:03:25.630 within the faculty and them kind of 00:03:25.640 --> 00:03:27.550 going back and forth. So everything 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:28.990 naturally had it, and I just was able to 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:31.070 kind of keep that through my whole 00:03:31.080 -->

00:03:32.990 experience. And then the years later I 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:35.550 went to to grad school 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:38.070 in Japan at Keio in media design, and 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:39.470 that was a place where they did a lot, 00:03:39.480 --> 00:03:40.870 you know, there was again intentionally 00:03:40.880 --> 00:03:43.470 this mixing of technology and design. 00:03:43.480 --> 00:03:44.750 Actually did a lot with like physical 00:03:44.760 --> 00:03:46.509 computing. So you're like, you know, you 00:03:46.519 --> 00:03:48.150 kind of design circuits and things like 00:03:48.160 --> 00:03:50.150 that and and and going this area, but it 00:03:50.160 --> 00:03:52.509 just was always really 00:03:52.519 --> 00:03:54.270 sort of assumed to me that you like in 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:56.070 order to design you needed to actually 00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:57.630 build and craft things and like there 00:03:57.640 --> 00:04:00.030 wasn't this huge line separating these 00:04:00.040 --> 00:04:02.230 things and I think there's been 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:03.390 especially in the past few years like 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:05.310 are almost like a real identity sense of 00:04:05.320 --> 00:04:07.150 like oh designers can do incredibly 00:04:07.160 --> 00:04:09.430 complicated things but not code like 00:04:09.440 --> 00:04:11.790 that is something for someone else. And 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:13.190 in then people and engineers are hearing 00:04:13.200 --> 00:04:14.790 the same thing like they do all these 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:15.910 things and they're thinking through all 00:04:15.920 --> 00:04:17.470 these these experiences and they're like 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:20.150 oh I'm not creative. So you know for me 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:21.630 it's always been kind of 00:04:21.640 --> 00:04:23.390 I really enjoying those those blurry 00:04:23.400 --> 00:04:24.670 spaces in between. 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:26.590 >> Yeah. It's interesting about what you're 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:28.590 talking about with with I'll I'll go to 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:30.430 the engineer part about that them not 00:04:30.440 --> 00:04:31.550 being creative because it's very 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:32.990 interesting where 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:35.510 what [snorts] I I've been preaching for 00:04:35.520 --> 00:04:37.710 over a year now about creativity with 00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:39.190 within constraints 00:04:39.200 --> 00:04:39.470 >> Mhm. 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:42.670 >> where the creativity comes from the 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:44.590 solving of problems and that's what 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:47.510 engineering is really all about. Sure 00:04:47.520 --> 00:04:49.710 are we you know are engineers 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:51.990 potentially missing the aesthetic the 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:54.750 the the cosmetic part of it? Yeah 00:04:54.760 --> 00:04:57.350 potentially it's it's fine but it's not 00:04:57.360 --> 00:04:58.870 you know the the creativity of being 00:04:58.880 --> 00:05:01.790 able to build something that's in you 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:04.430 know your mind and to be able to then 00:05:04.440 --> 00:05:06.670 present it to people there is really not 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:08.350 a lot of difference in terms of what we 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:10.909 would do as a designer other than you 00:05:10.919 --> 00:05:12.670 know from that designer 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:14.270 part of view especially I guess on in 00:05:14.280 --> 00:05:16.670 software or I'll say digitally 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:19.190 um largely like I said earlier it's the 00:05:19.200 --> 00:05:21.270 interactive piece that has been missing 00:05:21.280 --> 00:05:24.350 or has been kind of lower fidelity right 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:26.790 where you would have to like you know 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:28.470 make sure that the tool was able to do 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:29.830 the thing that I wanted it to do as 00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:31.750 opposed to being able to get into the 00:05:31.760 --> 00:05:33.390 code and do that stuff. You know if 00:05:33.400 --> 00:05:34.870 you're doing something physical or even 00:05:34.880 --> 00:05:36.390 on like that you know hardware circuit 00:05:36.400 --> 00:05:38.670 hardware boards I mean that's 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:40.390 a physical medium 00:05:40.400 --> 00:05:43.030 uh that a designer a circuit designer so 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:44.710 to speak will have to know their medium 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:46.310 in order to 00:05:46.320 --> 00:05:48.350 produce something that that is of 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:50.190 quality. So, I think you're you're 00:05:50.200 --> 00:05:51.110 you're 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:53.550 what you mentioned about that hard line 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:55.630 is really interesting 00:05:55.640 --> 00:05:58.390 about like you have a designer that 00:05:58.400 --> 00:06:02.190 designs digitally but traditionally has 00:06:02.200 --> 00:06:05.110 stopped at a particular point because 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.350 code. Right? They had that vision. 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:08.830 They're like, "Oh, yes, I know graphic 00:06:08.840 --> 00:06:10.910 design. I could web design, no problem." 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:12.430 And then they get to that one point 00:06:12.440 --> 00:06:14.550 where they can't go any further and they 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:18.630 have to do the handoff. Right? And it it 00:06:18.640 --> 00:06:21.870 if you haven't done the code before, 00:06:21.880 --> 00:06:24.550 it's really hard to get started in the 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:28.070 code to get past the handoff yourself. 00:06:28.080 --> 00:06:28.550 Right? 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:30.510 >> Yeah, as well and then it was, you know, 00:06:30.520 --> 00:06:31.830 like if you go back, you know, earlier 00:06:31.840 --> 00:06:34.190 earlier when it was like HTML or early 00:06:34.200 --> 00:06:36.270 CSS, like then you had designers doing 00:06:36.280 --> 00:06:37.470 these things because it made sense.

00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:39.350 You'd want the person designing the 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:40.950 thing be able to build it and polish it 00:06:40.960 --> 00:06:42.750 and get it just right in that that 00:06:42.760 --> 00:06:44.350 medium. But I think, you know, as the 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:45.390 the code got a little bit more 00:06:45.400 --> 00:06:47.590 complicated, uh we started having a 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:48.950 little bit of a different sense with 00:06:48.960 --> 00:06:51.310 those things. And then I think really 00:06:51.320 --> 00:06:52.550 the 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:54.909 the fields really hardened. Uh and they 00:06:54.919 --> 00:06:56.670 became they had their own language and 00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:57.950 you go to there's all these schools 00:06:57.960 --> 00:06:59.310 behind them and things like that and it 00:06:59.320 --> 00:07:00.750 became part of I think the reason why 00:07:00.760 --> 00:07:02.550 people think it's hard to go to the side 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:04.510 is they didn't speak the same language. 00:07:04.520 --> 00:07:06.390 Right? Right? You had uh there's all 00:07:06.400 --> 00:07:07.750 these terms and there's there's a 00:07:07.760 --> 00:07:09.390 certain number of basic things that 00:07:09.400 --> 00:07:10.909 every engineer is supposed to know and 00:07:10.919 --> 00:07:12.270 if you didn't know those it just was 00:07:12.280 --> 00:07:14.190 really hard to communicate. And the same 00:07:14.200 --> 00:07:16.710 thing uh coming into design and there 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:18.150 was almost like a little echo chamber in 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:20.550 these different areas as those things 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:22.670 uh you know, got reinforced. 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:24.830 >> Mhm. Yeah. Now, in your [clears throat] 00:07:24.840 --> 00:07:28.110 career, have you 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:30.030 been strictly 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:31.909 professionally calling yourself a 00:07:31.919 --> 00:07:34.310 designer or have you dabbled in saying 00:07:34.320 --> 00:07:36.230 I'm an engineer, design engineer, any 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:38.230 other kind of flavor of that? What What 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:40.350 does that track look like for you? 00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:42.350 >> So, I've been I've been pure a design 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:44.270 the entire time, you know, for you know, 00:07:44.280 --> 00:07:46.310 for for for 25 years. I mean, it started 00:07:46.320 --> 00:07:48.110 out information architect, information 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:50.470 architecture, then UX design, now 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:52.470 product design, and now I assume it's 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:54.030 moving in you know, to something a 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:55.550 little bit more like that blurry line 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:57.150 like, you know, you know, design 00:07:57.160 --> 00:07:58.590 engineer or something like that. 00:07:58.600 --> 00:07:58.910 >> Yeah. 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:01.390 >> But, you know, never officially worked 00:08:01.400 --> 00:08:03.950 as as a you know, 00:08:03.960 --> 00:08:06.030 outside of design except in like side 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:07.910 projects or do little you know, like 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:09.230 I start little companies with friends 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:10.830 and things like that. And then I'd be 00:08:10.840 --> 00:08:12.070 you know, do the engineering and these 00:08:12.080 --> 00:08:13.550 types of things to stay up to speed with 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:15.909 things or just because it's fun, but 00:08:15.919 --> 00:08:17.070 never within 00:08:17.080 --> 00:08:18.350 in a corporate environment. That was 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:20.550 actually one of the big learnings for me 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:23.150 was you know, how different you know, 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:25.350 in why it's so hard like it was so 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:27.390 different doing a little contained 00:08:27.400 --> 00:08:29.070 project yourself and coding and these 00:08:29.080 --> 00:08:30.630 types of things and then working at 00:08:30.640 --> 00:08:32.790 scale, you know, in in an enterprise 00:08:32.800 --> 00:08:34.110 environment and and having to 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:35.670 communicate in these very different ways 00:08:35.680 --> 00:08:36.990 and there was a whole different set of 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:39.709 learnings I had to do to get there. But, 00:08:39.719 --> 00:08:40.750 you know, 00:08:40.760 --> 00:08:44.070 what's it's been amazing seeing how many 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:46.270 like how hard it was for designers say a 00:08:46.280 --> 00:08:47.550 year and a half ago to imagine 00:08:47.560 --> 00:08:49.950 themselves doing this or even engineers 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:52.190 imagining designers doing it and now how 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:54.990 many people have like moved over across 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:56.230 that and have basically said, oh, no, 00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:58.150 this is exactly, you know, what I'm 00:08:58.160 --> 00:08:58.950 thinking. 00:08:58.960 --> 00:08:59.910 >> Yeah. 00:08:59.920 --> 00:09:01.670 And the I think another thing that's 00:09:01.680 --> 00:09:03.310 that's 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:05.030 you know, I think interesting in in just 00:09:05.040 --> 00:09:07.030 keeping in the design track 00:09:07.040 --> 00:09:09.110 for for this in particular and noticing 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:10.270 like 00:09:10.280 --> 00:09:12.710 you know, hey, the engineering part is a 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:14.310 challenge and it's it's but it's fine 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:16.390 for me to do on the side, right? But, 00:09:16.400 --> 00:09:18.230 when you when you try to do it in a 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:21.270 team, it's it's very different. Like I I 00:09:21.280 --> 00:09:24.030 remember when I was working at the first 00:09:24.040 --> 00:09:25.670 startup that I was I was working at and 00:09:25.680 --> 00:09:27.190 it was just me. I was the front end 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:28.990 engineer and the UX designer

effectively 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:30.510 at the same time, which was really 00:09:30.520 --> 00:09:32.630 helpful because then whatever came from 00:09:32.640 --> 00:09:34.430 my head was immediately in in you know, 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:36.750 in in prod. It was very easy, which is 00:09:36.760 --> 00:09:37.830 basically what we're kind of doing 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:39.950 today, like, you know, 11 years later. 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:42.870 But, when I moved from that company to 00:09:42.880 --> 00:09:44.190 Compass, 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:47.070 and now there's teams of people, and now 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:50.470 they're using source control, and now 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:52.750 you're trying to coordinate, I had the 00:09:52.760 --> 00:09:54.736 biggest imposter syndrome 00:09:54.746 --> 00:09:54.750 >> [snorts] 00:09:54.760 --> 00:09:56.230 >> when moving in from that, you know, 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.190 again, it's just kind of me working in 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:01.790 my my silos, so to speak, to this whole 00:10:01.800 --> 00:10:03.870 like, I'm on a team and all these other 00:10:03.880 --> 00:10:06.150 front engineers on this team. They have 00:10:06.160 --> 00:10:08.350 a dedicated UX, 00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:10.030 you know, team that's doing their own UX 00:10:10.040 --> 00:10:12.150 stuff, and like, oh my god, like, there 00:10:12.160 --> 00:10:14.030 was so many 00:10:14.040 --> 00:10:16.990 worries that I had. I worried myself 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:19.390 literally into a new position because I 00:10:19.400 --> 00:10:22.230 made the UX engineering role over there 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:24.790 at Compass because of my 00:10:24.800 --> 00:10:25.870 um 00:10:25.880 --> 00:10:28.030 imposter syndrome. I was like, I I this 00:10:28.040 --> 00:10:29.350 is uncomfortable for me, so I'm like, 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:31.350 can we do something different to like 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:32.710 hone my skills, which was actually 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:34.630 really great. It ended up blossoming 00:10:34.640 --> 00:10:35.950 into the design system and all that kind 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:39.630 of stuff. Um so so yeah, like 00:10:39.640 --> 00:10:41.510 for me, I and I talk about this for for 00:10:41.520 --> 00:10:43.110 other folks, too, is like 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:44.790 when you are a design engineer or 00:10:44.800 --> 00:10:46.950 similar to that, it's really hard to 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.110 find where your place is because often 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:52.110 those managers that are sitting either 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:54.310 in design or engineering, they don't 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:57.150 recognize the other half of your skill. 00:10:57.160 --> 00:10:59.270 Right? You're only half as good as the 00:10:59.280 --> 00:11:02.430 rest of the team in that particular org. 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:04.150 So, when you have leadership like 00:11:04.160 --> 00:11:06.710 yourself who recognize 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:09.270 this cross-functionality of these 00:11:09.280 --> 00:11:11.270 particular individuals, 00:11:11.280 --> 00:11:13.110 I think that's a really great thing to 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:15.630 level these these folks up. Do you Do 00:11:15.640 --> 00:11:18.829 you have a specific 00:11:18.839 --> 00:11:20.829 I guess design engineering practice, or 00:11:20.839 --> 00:11:23.350 do you have individuals that lean closer 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:25.270 to design engineering 00:11:25.280 --> 00:11:27.747 over there at your your company? 00:11:27.757 --> 00:11:27.829 >> [snorts] 00:11:27.839 --> 00:11:29.430 >> So so we definitely So we have some 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:30.790 people that are definitely effectively 00:11:30.800 --> 00:11:32.350 doing this role right now, although 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:33.550 they're they're still in the product 00:11:33.560 --> 00:11:36.190 design job family today, that's one of 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:37.710 the things we're working on right now. 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:39.710 As we're looking at building out an 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:41.230 explicitly 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:42.910 a design engineer or we're likely call 00:11:42.920 --> 00:11:44.910 it experience engineer role. 00:11:44.920 --> 00:11:47.070 Um and we you know, it'll be hybrid, but 00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:49.150 like it's not it's not set yet and so 00:11:49.160 --> 00:11:51.030 like if they're still some you know, 00:11:51.040 --> 00:11:52.590 we're still exploring and you know, 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:54.310 we'll probably do a pilot and and figure 00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:56.270 out exactly what makes sense. But we're 00:11:56.280 --> 00:11:59.550 seeing this at so many places. Clearly 00:11:59.560 --> 00:12:01.750 startups, a lot of them don't even have 00:12:01.760 --> 00:12:03.590 a traditional design role anymore. It is 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:05.550 a lot more of this hybrid role. We're 00:12:05.560 --> 00:12:07.230 seeing this at like the AI native 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:09.870 companies going forward, you know, and 00:12:09.880 --> 00:12:11.590 and this is how they're building. So it 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:13.230 I think it makes a lot of sense that 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:14.910 people are doing it. So I Do we have it 00:12:14.920 --> 00:12:17.350 right now? No. Do I expect that you 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:18.430 know, 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:20.590 by you know, by early next year will we 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:22.230 have one? I I absolutely I think we'll 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:22.790 have one. 00:12:22.800 --> 00:12:25.190 >> Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. I And it's 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:26.870 really interesting also about you know, 00:12:26.880 --> 00:12:28.790 again that that's the ladder. I think 00:12:28.800 --> 00:12:30.150 there's the there's the real key 00:12:30.160 --> 00:12:32.230 situation when you're talking about 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:33.830 these design engineer roles because that 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:37.510 ladder uh is is a challenge, right?

It's 00:12:37.520 --> 00:12:38.710 just like, okay, how much of the 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:39.829 engineering are you going to do? How 00:12:39.839 --> 00:12:40.829 much of the design are you going to be 00:12:40.839 --> 00:12:42.790 doing? What's your responsibilities in 00:12:42.800 --> 00:12:44.430 each one? That's the thing that we've 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:46.270 always struggled on. Like I I made the 00:12:46.280 --> 00:12:47.829 ladder at Compass not really knowing 00:12:47.839 --> 00:12:49.910 much because back at Compass when I was 00:12:49.920 --> 00:12:51.910 trying to to kind of create that role, I 00:12:51.920 --> 00:12:53.510 only really had I think it was Microsoft 00:12:53.520 --> 00:12:56.110 and Google that had um 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:58.150 you know, UX engineer roles at the time 00:12:58.160 --> 00:12:59.630 is what they were called, which I 00:12:59.640 --> 00:13:02.270 actually align closer to 00:13:02.280 --> 00:13:05.750 in terms of what what I believe is is my 00:13:05.760 --> 00:13:08.710 experience is I I prefer calling myself 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:11.030 a user experience engineer over a design 00:13:11.040 --> 00:13:13.150 engineer because the design kind of 00:13:13.160 --> 00:13:15.030 feels like you're you could be doing 00:13:15.040 --> 00:13:16.430 craft, but you could also be doing the 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:18.950 experience the user part and I'm more 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:21.670 focused on the user experience part and 00:13:21.680 --> 00:13:23.550 less so about the 00:13:23.560 --> 00:13:25.070 I don't want to downplay like how much 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:26.630 code happens and you know, in terms of 00:13:26.640 --> 00:13:29.270 the deep, uh, both deep front-end work 00:13:29.280 --> 00:13:30.830 and even like additional like soft 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:32.910 front-end systems and things like that. 00:13:32.920 --> 00:13:34.870 But I I think fundamentally this is a 00:13:34.880 --> 00:13:38.150 design role and it's just instead of 00:13:38.160 --> 00:13:39.750 spending time and crafting it and 00:13:39.760 --> 00:13:41.470 finalizing it in Figma, you're spending 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:43.350 time and finalizing it in code. And 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:45.550 there is extra work there, right? Cuz 00:13:45.560 --> 00:13:46.750 you do need to collaborate with other 00:13:46.760 --> 00:13:49.510 people in these types of things, but 00:13:49.520 --> 00:13:50.950 at the end of the day it doesn't ma- 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:52.230 it's not going to help if all the 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:53.910 designers suddenly become front-end 00:13:53.920 --> 00:13:55.030 engineers. 00:13:55.040 --> 00:13:56.070 Right? [snorts] It's only going to help 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:58.510 is if we can take the design thinking 00:13:58.520 --> 00:14:01.310 and the context that people have, uh, 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:02.630 when they're talking with customers and 00:14:02.640 --> 00:14:03.630 that they how they understand the 00:14:03.640 --> 00:14:05.630 product works and be able to build that, 00:14:05.640 --> 00:14:07.670 uh, when they when they execute it. And 00:14:07.680 --> 00:14:09.750 if you don't have that, then 00:14:09.760 --> 00:14:10.870 you know, that you know, then we then 00:14:10.880 --> 00:14:12.470 it's been a major step backwards. But I 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:13.790 think the the whole point you were 00:14:13.800 --> 00:14:16.190 talking about of like this handoff and 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:17.990 like, you know, people were having to 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:19.830 pass their work up to someone else. It 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:21.630 doesn't matter how much passionate they 00:14:21.640 --> 00:14:23.230 are, it doesn't matter how good they 00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:25.430 are, uh, when you hand stuff off from 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:26.790 one person to another, you just lose a 00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:28.350 tremendous amount of context. 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:28.870 >> Yes. 00:14:28.880 --> 00:14:30.670 >> Any question that comes up or anything 00:14:30.680 --> 00:14:32.710 they have to intuit, uh, they don't have 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:34.430 that same baseline and things can get 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:35.829 thrown off. So I think that's kind of 00:14:35.839 --> 00:14:37.710 the one of the main issues that 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:39.270 that that I see that it has to be 00:14:39.280 --> 00:14:42.070 inherently a very strong design role, 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:44.510 uh, but now we're we're we're going and 00:14:44.520 --> 00:14:46.230 and actually you know, you just you just 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:49.390 craft it in code. Uh, and I think 00:14:49.400 --> 00:14:52.030 if you do it more and more, it's not 00:14:52.040 --> 00:14:53.870 uh, it you know, it is a bit daunting in 00:14:53.880 --> 00:14:56.070 the beginning, but it's not 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:57.870 the 00:14:57.880 --> 00:14:59.510 it's very achievable. It's you know, 00:14:59.520 --> 00:15:00.870 it's and a lot of times you're working 00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:02.310 within a system and you you know, you're 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:03.790 doing you know, these types of things. 00:15:03.800 --> 00:15:06.470 So it's not like you have to do the most 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:07.790 complicated code things. You just need 00:15:07.800 --> 00:15:09.630 to get familiar with some basic, uh, 00:15:09.640 --> 00:15:10.350 practices. 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:12.630 >> Yeah. And and I 00:15:12.640 --> 00:15:14.150 it brings up a question a little bit 00:15:14.160 --> 00:15:16.270 here cuz I like how how adamant you are 00:15:16.280 --> 00:15:19.150 about, uh, how clear it is for you for 00:15:19.160 --> 00:15:21.150 this particular role to sit in design 00:15:21.160 --> 00:15:23.510 because the question that has come up on 00:15:23.520 --> 00:15:26.150 the show a few times is does the code 00:15:26.160 --> 00:15:30.830 even actually matter any longer? I had 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:32.470 Matthew Strom on come on

the show and we 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:34.030 were going to originally talk about 00:15:34.040 --> 00:15:35.190 Tailwind and we kind of did talk about 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:36.870 Tailwind in in this particular fact, but 00:15:36.880 --> 00:15:38.150 he brought up a really good question 00:15:38.160 --> 00:15:39.270 about 00:15:39.280 --> 00:15:41.230 you know, there's low-level assembly 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:43.310 code running on all machines right now. 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:43.670 >> Oh, yeah. 00:15:43.680 --> 00:15:44.670 >> Right? 00:15:44.680 --> 00:15:45.630 I don't know what the hell that code 00:15:45.640 --> 00:15:47.270 does. I've no clue what that code does, 00:15:47.280 --> 00:15:49.790 but I inherently trust that that code is 00:15:49.800 --> 00:15:51.270 doing what it's supposed to be doing, 00:15:51.280 --> 00:15:54.790 right? How different is that code that 00:15:54.800 --> 00:15:56.950 is effectively being generated from, you 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:58.670 know, LLMs and AI and all that kind of 00:15:58.680 --> 00:16:00.310 stuff that's what we're seeing today? 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.750 How different is that from a designer, 00:16:02.760 --> 00:16:04.790 you know, doing code in this kind of 00:16:04.800 --> 00:16:06.750 way, getting this code out, getting the 00:16:06.760 --> 00:16:09.310 result that they're expecting, right? 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:11.390 How different is that necessarily? And 00:16:11.400 --> 00:16:13.510 the answer is maybe not so different, 00:16:13.520 --> 00:16:13.990 right? 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:14.270 >> Yeah. 00:16:14.280 --> 00:16:16.030 >> Maybe it's again if if you're getting 00:16:16.040 --> 00:16:17.990 the expected outcome that you're looking 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:20.710 for through the exercise that you're 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:22.350 going through, maybe the code doesn't 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:25.110 matter and maybe again it is more of an 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:28.470 emphasis on the design work and 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:30.910 therefore should be a role that sits 00:16:30.920 --> 00:16:33.590 underneath design because the code part, 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:35.990 you know, in the largest quotations 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.510 imaginable doesn't matter. Sure, yes, it 00:16:38.520 --> 00:16:40.510 does matter in lots of other, you know, 00:16:40.520 --> 00:16:43.990 asterisks kind of ways, but ultimately 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:45.670 when you think about that whole assembly 00:16:45.680 --> 00:16:47.829 thing, you go, "Oh, yeah, like I don't 00:16:47.839 --> 00:16:48.910 know what the the assembly is 00:16:48.920 --> 00:16:50.590 doing, right? Like What is it What is it 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:53.350 doing?" But I do know that someone had a 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:55.310 design in mind 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:57.790 for this experience ultimately and as a 00:16:57.800 --> 00:17:00.110 user I appreciate it going from point A 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:02.470 to point B in the way that that it's 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:05.230 meant to to to be. 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:06.870 >> Yeah, I mean I I I mean I think it I 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:09.710 think it's a great kind of ex- a way to 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:10.990 frame it, a great metaphor for what 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:12.110 these things you know, the way these 00:17:12.120 --> 00:17:14.030 things are working. It's It's 00:17:14.040 --> 00:17:15.590 interesting to me even just like I I've 00:17:15.600 --> 00:17:17.110 been struggling so much with with 00:17:17.120 --> 00:17:18.710 terminology. 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:20.670 Uh you know, with these roles and when 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:21.829 we're trying to create these new things 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:24.790 cuz I think part of the problem is 00:17:24.800 --> 00:17:26.790 uh you know, and we'll get into silly 00:17:26.800 --> 00:17:27.829 things, but like you know, what is 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.190 design? What is engineering? And and and 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:32.870 these types of things, right? And 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:33.910 uh 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:36.470 I really think I don't like the term 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:37.990 like I wouldn't want a professional term 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:39.350 like builder. I know people have been 00:17:39.360 --> 00:17:40.310 kind of floating that. I don't think 00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:42.510 that's right, but essentially that's 00:17:42.520 --> 00:17:44.630 that's what this is is we're we're we're 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:45.790 making 00:17:45.800 --> 00:17:47.270 and I think what's happened like we said 00:17:47.280 --> 00:17:49.310 with the code is you got to distract all 00:17:49.320 --> 00:17:50.670 this stuff that was necessary and then 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:52.670 okay, you get to focus on like the part 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:54.030 that I want to actually explain and 00:17:54.040 --> 00:17:54.830 these are the things I want to get 00:17:54.840 --> 00:17:56.390 across. And that's what we're trying to 00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:57.950 do with design. I want to be able to say 00:17:57.960 --> 00:17:59.630 this is what it should be and this is 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:01.230 how it should interact. 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:03.390 Um and 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.790 and there are aspects of that 00:18:06.800 --> 00:18:09.110 which are code and there's aspects of 00:18:09.120 --> 00:18:11.470 that which are are design and there's 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:13.710 under and and like the 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:15.590 I just find it works much better if you 00:18:15.600 --> 00:18:16.950 if you don't have to actually attribute 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:18.430 oh, I can do this part but not that 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:20.230 part. But you know, in the parts when 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:21.790 I've had times when I've had like small 00:18:21.800 --> 00:18:23.550 projects myself and I've got to do all 00:18:23.560 --> 00:18:25.390 aspects of things. 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:28.030 So much of the experience is

this blur 00:18:28.040 --> 00:18:29.710 and I we even have this issue with 00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:32.710 ownership and we have for years with uh 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.510 you know, with the front end, right? And 00:18:34.520 --> 00:18:36.590 as a design leader for years people 00:18:36.600 --> 00:18:37.990 would be like why is it designed this 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:39.990 way on this on this particular screen or 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:41.630 something? And you're like, well, 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:42.870 you know, you dig into it like well, 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:45.030 sometimes it's because 00:18:45.040 --> 00:18:45.750 um 00:18:45.760 --> 00:18:47.470 like maybe didn't maybe the design 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:49.430 didn't deliver something amazing, but um 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:51.550 I'm biased and I think we often do. 00:18:51.560 --> 00:18:53.670 Um right? But like maybe there was 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:55.430 compromises that had to be made. Maybe 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:56.990 what was and and they had to cut 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:58.910 designs. Maybe uh it wasn't built 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:01.470 correctly. Maybe uh you know, we were 00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:03.190 told it wasn't technically feasible. 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:04.790 Maybe there was a different direction. 00:19:04.800 --> 00:19:07.390 It wasn't prioritized. And everybody 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:08.670 when you look at it and like or you 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:10.070 know, or maybe the problem is latency on 00:19:10.080 --> 00:19:11.390 this particular experience. And that's 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:12.670 the thing you need to do, and that's 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:14.510 what you worked on. And I think there's 00:19:14.520 --> 00:19:17.710 so many people that own this this very 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:19.390 top layer of the experience that it gets 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:21.350 incredibly blurry, and we start to have 00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:23.910 a bit of a us and them dynamic. I was 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:25.190 talking with an engineer today. I was 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.070 like, it's so strange like we have this 00:19:27.080 --> 00:19:29.390 us and them aspect with design and 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:30.790 engineering, but within engineering 00:19:30.800 --> 00:19:32.510 there's tons of roles. And you don't 00:19:32.520 --> 00:19:33.910 really hear engineering usually being 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:35.270 like, oh, that's that didn't work 00:19:35.280 --> 00:19:36.590 because front-end engineering couldn't 00:19:36.600 --> 00:19:37.990 do this and back-end engineering and 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:39.910 it's all this. They basically kind of 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:42.350 see themselves as a collective. And I I 00:19:42.360 --> 00:19:44.790 I want to get to a point where and and 00:19:44.800 --> 00:19:46.470 where we can kind of see it as like 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:47.990 there's these people that are 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.150 responsible for building this thing. And

00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:52.030 we're making it together. 00:19:52.040 --> 00:19:54.150 And there is 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:56.150 and and our specific we'll have we'll 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.510 spike in different areas, but like it is 00:19:59.520 --> 00:20:01.070 us together trying to create this thing, 00:20:01.080 --> 00:20:02.150 and there's different parts that come 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:04.270 together in order to do that. So, I you 00:20:04.280 --> 00:20:05.750 know, where it sits in these types of 00:20:05.760 --> 00:20:07.430 things I I do say it does you know, for 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.550 me like a lot of the work what I think 00:20:09.560 --> 00:20:11.390 is important here is design and design 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:12.670 thinking. 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:16.630 Uh and but without 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:18.350 you know, but but I ultimately think 00:20:18.360 --> 00:20:19.710 like some of our titles are going to get 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:20.990 us into trouble. 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:22.870 Uh and and and they've been and they've 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:25.230 been creating false separations, which 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:26.990 hasn't been good for for products or for 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:27.670 people. 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:29.550 >> Yeah. You know what the the us versus 00:20:29.560 --> 00:20:31.110 them brought brought up something that I 00:20:31.120 --> 00:20:33.230 had a conversation with Ray Ost. He had 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:35.230 a very hot take, but a very small hot 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:37.390 take, but it was it was a very 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:40.230 significant one, which was 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.390 he believes that you should not name 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:43.990 your design system. 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:45.030 Okay? 00:20:45.040 --> 00:20:48.110 Now now his example was you have 00:20:48.120 --> 00:20:50.350 something like Adobe Spectrum, right? 00:20:50.360 --> 00:20:51.550 So, that's that's a design system. In 00:20:51.560 --> 00:20:53.990 fact, I had Garth and Nate both from 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.870 from Spectrum on a couple weeks ago. 00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:58.310 But he was he was comparing it to 00:20:58.320 --> 00:21:00.270 Atlassian because Atlassian is just 00:21:00.280 --> 00:21:02.590 Atlassian design system. And the reason 00:21:02.600 --> 00:21:05.870 why he suggests that you don't name your 00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:08.550 design system is because it does feel 00:21:08.560 --> 00:21:10.990 like an us versus them. When you have 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:13.150 this very special named, you know, 00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:15.670 committee group team, whatever, it feels 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:17.270 like, oh, you're not on Spectrum, sorry, 00:21:17.280 --> 00:21:18.750 you're not a part of, you know, this 00:21:18.760 --> 00:21:20.990 thing that we're doing over here, right? 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:22.710 Uh, you know, so when you have thing 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:24.310 like Atlassian on the

other hand, just 00:21:24.320 --> 00:21:25.630 the the 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:27.630 um, feeling of it, 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:29.510 it feels like Atlassian's design system 00:21:29.520 --> 00:21:30.790 is everyone's because everyone's a part 00:21:30.800 --> 00:21:32.430 of Atlassian. So, therefore, it feels 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:34.910 like everyone's included. So, you're 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:36.790 absolutely right about like how the 00:21:36.800 --> 00:21:40.030 naming can drive the culture and the 00:21:40.040 --> 00:21:41.990 feelings of of inclusion and things of 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:43.550 that nature. Where you start putting 00:21:43.560 --> 00:21:48.070 names to things, um, you can then 00:21:48.080 --> 00:21:49.870 potentially alienate other people 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:53.150 unintentionally, right? Um, so it's so 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.310 important to be uh, aware of those 00:21:56.320 --> 00:21:58.230 possibilities in there. Uh, even if 00:21:58.240 --> 00:21:59.910 people don't even realize it, right? 00:21:59.920 --> 00:22:01.190 Like I, you know, when there's teams 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:02.110 that are out there that have a 00:22:02.120 --> 00:22:03.870 particular name, you know, I'm not 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:05.670 necessarily thinking, 00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:07.510 oh, that's not for me, 00:22:07.520 --> 00:22:09.430 um, but for other people, it it could be 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:11.030 this subconscious thing like, oh, well, 00:22:11.040 --> 00:22:13.110 I can't contribute because I'm not part 00:22:13.120 --> 00:22:15.390 of the X team. That's their 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:17.270 responsibility, so I can't be a part of 00:22:17.280 --> 00:22:19.030 it. And it's really, I'm I'm really 00:22:19.040 --> 00:22:20.630 curious about, you know, and I have to 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:22.190 try to get somebody from Atlassian on to 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:25.390 to feel what is that, you know, kind of 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:27.350 difference for when you have that kind 00:22:27.360 --> 00:22:29.150 of that naming convention, that naming 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:31.230 culture that says, no, we're all like 00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:33.470 one one big family, so to speak. I know 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:34.830 companies and families, I know I just 00:22:34.840 --> 00:22:36.470 hit a nerve with people, but [laughter] 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:37.630 but uh, yeah. 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:38.950 >> And that's [snorts] a lot like one of 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:40.110 the reasons why when we're doing this 00:22:40.120 --> 00:22:41.510 test is we're we're intentionally 00:22:41.520 --> 00:22:42.910 keeping, I mean, there's been UX 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:44.310 engineers for a long time, you talked 00:22:44.320 --> 00:22:45.950 about it. We're intentionally keeping 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:49.070 this a an engineer role, uh, because to 00:22:49.080 --> 00:22:50.990 see if that if that can kind of change 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.550 some of that dynamic, cuz we have a lot 00:22:53.560 --> 00:22:55.430 of people that are working in this way, 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.030 but they still have, you know, the 00:22:57.040 --> 00:22:58.670 imposter syndrome or these different 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:00.030 things where they're like, oh, I'm the 00:23:00.040 --> 00:23:02.110 designer who's kind of getting to do 00:23:02.120 --> 00:23:03.670 this, or I'm a designer and I kind of 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:05.110 work in this special way but I hope it's 00:23:05.120 --> 00:23:07.270 okay everybody and is it all right if I 00:23:07.280 --> 00:23:08.870 go to your meetings and is it okay like 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:11.150 it just there's still inherently is this 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:12.790 this outsider feeling where we're like 00:23:12.800 --> 00:23:14.990 no you're part of this team you're 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:16.150 you're doing the you know this is this 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:17.150 is you're all you're all in this 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:18.630 together so we're hopefully even just 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:20.550 like changing the title 00:23:20.560 --> 00:23:22.190 would would bring people into it now I 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:23.950 know that it's also very controversial 00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:25.110 for us 00:23:25.120 --> 00:23:27.590 because a lot of people self identify as 00:23:27.600 --> 00:23:29.270 as a designer right I mean like you know 00:23:29.280 --> 00:23:31.190 like you know I you know especially in 00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:32.550 the US right you're like what are you oh 00:23:32.560 --> 00:23:36.230 I'm a designer that's who I am um and 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.110 it's it's a lot to for people to you 00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:40.790 know to to think about changing that so 00:23:40.800 --> 00:23:41.710 so 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:43.470 you know there's a lot there is a lot in 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:45.750 these names but I do think if we can 00:23:45.760 --> 00:23:47.670 find a way for everybody 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:49.310 feeling you know at least on the 00:23:49.320 --> 00:23:50.950 building side 00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:53.110 uh feeling like one team it's going to 00:23:53.120 --> 00:23:55.030 be it's going to be more effective and 00:23:55.040 --> 00:23:56.550 everybody's always trying to figure out 00:23:56.560 --> 00:23:58.390 how to how do startups go so fast and 00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:00.510 how do they do these things and a lot of 00:24:00.520 --> 00:24:03.150 it comes down to like two factors one is 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:05.070 it's like everybody's in it together 00:24:05.080 --> 00:24:06.230 right everybody knows what they need to 00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:07.710 achieve and then and they're all on 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:09.550 board and then I you know separate is 00:24:09.560 --> 00:24:11.270 you know somebody 00:24:11.280 --> 00:24:12.830 people that have someone on that team is 00:24:12.840 --> 00:24:13.910 like this is the most important thing 00:24:13.920 -->

00:24:15.190 I'm working on and they they pay 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:16.870 attention to the details but there's 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:19.230 some factor of 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:21.270 like we're all doing this it doesn't 00:24:21.280 --> 00:24:23.070 really matter who's doing what we're 00:24:23.080 --> 00:24:24.870 trying to achieve this thing together 00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:26.950 and as soon as you have very distinct 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:28.710 groups 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:30.030 it you know it does become 00:24:30.040 --> 00:24:31.430 >> come a bit of a us versus them 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:32.790 >> 100% 00:24:32.800 --> 00:24:34.350 >> um all right I'm going to pivot a little 00:24:34.360 --> 00:24:35.750 bit because you had that hot take that 00:24:35.760 --> 00:24:38.030 came in that made me question 00:24:38.040 --> 00:24:40.510 uh you know what what needs saving 00:24:40.520 --> 00:24:42.710 because you were you when we were we we 00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:44.470 had you uh you know submit to come on 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:46.030 the show so you're very excited to you 00:24:46.040 --> 00:24:47.710 know I have everyone say like okay what 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:48.710 do you want to talk about and one of the 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:50.390 things that David had was saving the 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:52.630 future of design I'm like what's wrong 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:54.670 with the future of design so so yeah 00:24:54.680 --> 00:24:56.550 David what do you what are you thinking 00:24:56.560 --> 00:24:58.030 on that on that front? 00:24:58.040 --> 00:25:00.510 >> Well, it's um 00:25:00.520 --> 00:25:01.830 Honestly, I didn't even know how 00:25:01.840 --> 00:25:03.270 important that filling that form was 00:25:03.280 --> 00:25:04.630 going to be. Uh but yeah, [laughter] I 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:07.030 do I do support it. I 00:25:07.040 --> 00:25:09.110 I I I, you know, I've been in design for 00:25:09.120 --> 00:25:11.030 a long time and I and I I actually love 00:25:11.040 --> 00:25:13.870 it. I I love the process of design. I 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:17.030 think it's magic, you know, I think uh 00:25:17.040 --> 00:25:18.710 understanding how people use things and 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:20.230 then using that to create something that 00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:21.670 makes their lives better or change their 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:23.270 behavior, sometimes change their 00:25:23.280 --> 00:25:24.630 behavior in ways that they don't even 00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:26.990 realize. Like, it's absolutely just 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.350 magic. It blows me away and and has like 00:25:29.360 --> 00:25:30.790 every year uh since I've been doing 00:25:30.800 --> 00:25:31.630 this. 00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:35.390 Um and well, I've seen different times 00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:37.230 like our roles within the industry kind 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:38.230 of ebb and flow. 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:38.550 >> Right. 00:25:38.560 --> 00:25:39.870 >> Uh when I started

out information 00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:41.070 architecture, it's different in 00:25:41.080 --> 00:25:43.510 different places, but a lot of times 00:25:43.520 --> 00:25:44.870 uh you know, companies started to work 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:46.590 different than I'm no judgment on people 00:25:46.600 --> 00:25:48.310 in different roles they are now, but 00:25:48.320 --> 00:25:50.710 what design did then was often times 00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:52.510 like a good chunk of what product is 00:25:52.520 --> 00:25:54.590 doing now and what design is doing. 00:25:54.600 --> 00:25:54.990 >> Mhm. 00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:56.550 >> Right? That they, you know, you kind of 00:25:56.560 --> 00:25:57.950 you were the one who you never users 00:25:57.960 --> 00:25:59.710 decided what these things should be. You 00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:01.270 you guided it. And we had some, you 00:26:01.280 --> 00:26:03.550 know, people uh working in in in, you 00:26:03.560 --> 00:26:04.750 know, 00:26:04.760 --> 00:26:06.350 advising in some kind of deep deep 00:26:06.360 --> 00:26:08.030 things, but really kind of really being 00:26:08.040 --> 00:26:10.310 really true deep product owners uh in 00:26:10.320 --> 00:26:12.230 this sense. And then things shaved with 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:14.350 it changed a bit with UX and it became a 00:26:14.360 --> 00:26:15.830 little bit formalized. We kind of moved 00:26:15.840 --> 00:26:17.190 out of that role and a little bit more 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:18.430 into the visual, you know, in in the 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:21.070 thinking side. Product design shifted 00:26:21.080 --> 00:26:23.150 again into the visual and then a lot of 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:25.230 places it kind of came that like product 00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:28.190 owned the business, engineering owned uh 00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:29.670 was the biggest cost and they were seen 00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:33.230 as the builder. And even in places where 00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:35.710 design was having a huge impact and 00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:37.910 where like tech companies that should 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:39.990 absolutely understand deeply under stand 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:41.470 design, people are like, "Oh, I don't I 00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:43.150 don't know what you do." Right? And 00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:44.070 there was a little like for, you know, I 00:26:44.080 --> 00:26:45.430 hadn't had to do this in a bunch of 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:47.110 years, but for a lot like for 10 years, 00:26:47.120 --> 00:26:48.910 I feel like every design leader I talked 00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:50.910 about was just how every year they had 00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:52.830 to like go back and explain to people 00:26:52.840 --> 00:26:55.110 and and you know, re-litigate what 00:26:55.120 --> 00:26:57.470 design does and the value of it 00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:59.470 as it went forward. And and it's it's 00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:00.630 you know, it 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:04.310 it it threw so much off. And so, 00:27:04.320 --> 00:27:06.990 when AI started to disrupt things, I 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:08.550 think there started to be there was a 00:27:08.560 --> 00:27:10.790 real question in my mind, 00:27:10.800 --> 00:27:12.470 is this going to be one of those moments 00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:15.190 where design is able to and design 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:16.750 thinking in our approach, not just the 00:27:16.760 --> 00:27:18.710 word, but like the way we approach these 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:21.590 problems and some of the values that we 00:27:21.600 --> 00:27:23.270 we attribute to different things, is 00:27:23.280 --> 00:27:24.510 that going to be something that's going 00:27:24.520 --> 00:27:26.110 to be end up with a little bit more 00:27:26.120 --> 00:27:28.030 influence within companies and and and 00:27:28.040 --> 00:27:29.550 help make better products and help make 00:27:29.560 --> 00:27:30.710 things better, 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:33.030 which I truly believe it will, or is it 00:27:33.040 --> 00:27:34.190 going to be one of these things that it 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:36.390 actually going to get squished 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:38.310 and and we don't know, you know, where 00:27:38.320 --> 00:27:40.430 we are. So, for me, that you know, the 00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:42.470 aspect of kind of saving design was more 00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:44.750 about the like the fundamental approach 00:27:44.760 --> 00:27:47.910 and seeing if we can 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:50.150 finally kind of, you know, at least get 00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:51.510 out of this cycle of litigating, "Hi, 00:27:51.520 --> 00:27:52.990 this is effective." And everybody knows 00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:54.350 it. Like you being conversations like, 00:27:54.360 --> 00:27:55.790 "Oh yeah, we all need to bring in design 00:27:55.800 --> 00:27:57.230 early. We'll do these things." And it 00:27:57.240 --> 00:27:58.950 wasn't happening. And is this a time 00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:00.470 that we can sort of say, "Hey, we're 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:02.390 going to we're going to own this 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:03.550 like it's really clear. We're going to 00:28:03.560 --> 00:28:06.790 own the front end aspect of the product. 00:28:06.800 --> 00:28:08.110 This is what people think of as the 00:28:08.120 --> 00:28:09.990 product. This is the team that is going 00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:11.310 to be expert in this. We're going to do 00:28:11.320 --> 00:28:13.430 this." And that's an incredibly, you 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:14.790 know, it's a big responsibility. There's 00:28:14.800 --> 00:28:16.070 a lot of, you know, it's a double-edged 00:28:16.080 --> 00:28:18.230 sword. But if we can be the the team 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:20.030 that says, "Oh yeah, that when you 00:28:20.040 --> 00:28:22.030 interact with this thing, every aspect 00:28:22.040 --> 00:28:23.950 of that that we brought that. We owned 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:25.790 that. We drove that." I think that is 00:28:25.800 --> 00:28:27.910 going to

allow design thinking and 00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:29.750 design's approach to just have a 00:28:29.760 --> 00:28:32.950 tremendously outsized impact. But again, 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:34.950 the sort of the cost of it is a bit 00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:36.550 there is this identity of what's a 00:28:36.560 --> 00:28:38.550 designer that's been kind of formed a 00:28:38.560 --> 00:28:40.870 bit over the past 25 years, 00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:42.070 especially I think for, you know, people 00:28:42.080 --> 00:28:43.870 maybe who haven't even done it you know, 00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:45.270 as long. 00:28:45.280 --> 00:28:48.830 And it's really scary in a sense to say, 00:28:48.840 --> 00:28:50.590 you know, like to them, some people I 00:28:50.600 --> 00:28:52.150 feel like what I'm saying feels like 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.270 that's giving up design. Oh, I know, now 00:28:54.280 --> 00:28:55.510 I'm doing code, too. I'm doing these 00:28:55.520 --> 00:28:57.070 types of things. Whereas to me, it's 00:28:57.080 --> 00:28:59.430 really a celebration of design, 00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:01.150 uh and it how we approach things and the 00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:03.430 and the and what we value. So, that I 00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:04.670 think is is kind of one of the big 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:06.470 tensions that we're in right now. 00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:09.430 >> Yeah. Um you know, the the the squish 00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:12.430 part really got me a little bit. Um 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:14.350 because I think what you're saying in 00:29:14.360 --> 00:29:17.030 what you're saying in terms of the two 00:29:17.040 --> 00:29:18.750 possibilities here, right? You have the 00:29:18.760 --> 00:29:20.630 one possibility that basically says, 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:21.990 "Okay, we understand the value of 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.870 design, and we're going to uh put more 00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:27.590 responsibility on design to provide uh 00:29:27.600 --> 00:29:29.510 you know, to provide us the right 00:29:29.520 --> 00:29:31.190 experiences, the better experiences, 00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:34.790 etc., etc." But you also get the squish, 00:29:34.800 --> 00:29:36.390 which which in my mind again it 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:39.270 triggered me because I'm seeing a lot of 00:29:39.280 --> 00:29:42.670 squishing right now. And I'm seeing and 00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:44.270 what I was calling, you know, folks 00:29:44.280 --> 00:29:46.950 DKO's, Dunning-Kruger officers, because 00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:49.750 they believe that they are experts even 00:29:49.760 --> 00:29:51.630 if they aren't experts, but now have the 00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:52.790 tools 00:29:52.800 --> 00:29:53.030 >> Mhm. 00:29:53.040 --> 00:29:55.750 >> that allow them to do the building. And 00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:57.430 that's where like I've been very 00:29:57.440 --> 00:29:59.990 cautious about, you know, 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:01.790 where this stuff sits and because it it 00:30:01.800 --> 00:30:03.750

ultimately it does depend on the culture 00:30:03.760 --> 00:30:05.910 of the organization about which one of 00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:07.390 those two groups they're in. And 00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:09.790 sometimes you have the culture 00:30:09.800 --> 00:30:11.790 that says, "Design is important. I'm 00:30:11.800 --> 00:30:14.110 going to elevate design now that they 00:30:14.120 --> 00:30:16.830 can they can also code and build. That's 00:30:16.840 --> 00:30:18.510 going to be huge. We're going to get a 00:30:18.520 --> 00:30:21.030 lot of great output from that because 00:30:21.040 --> 00:30:24.190 we're going to put all of our um 00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:26.190 you know, trust in the people that we've 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:30.070 hired as experts to now build the things 00:30:30.080 --> 00:30:31.870 that they were you know, attempting to 00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:33.870 communicate back when we tried the 00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:36.070 handoff." But then you have the other 00:30:36.080 --> 00:30:38.270 side, right? Where you have a culture 00:30:38.280 --> 00:30:41.510 that didn't value design as as much. 00:30:41.520 --> 00:30:44.030 They just felt like it was, you know, I 00:30:44.040 --> 00:30:46.390 didn't I don't know what the right color 00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:47.990 is or the right border radius is. I 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:49.590 don't have an opinion about it. I have 00:30:49.600 --> 00:30:52.310 more important things to do than that. 00:30:52.320 --> 00:30:54.470 So, they used to do whatever that work 00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:58.750 was, right? And now that that work and 00:30:58.760 --> 00:31:01.310 I'll say that's largely coding is 00:31:01.320 --> 00:31:03.670 effectively you know 00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:06.790 um offshored to AIs at this point. Now 00:31:06.800 --> 00:31:08.110 they're looking at each other going, 00:31:08.120 --> 00:31:10.110 well, I don't know what else to do. But 00:31:10.120 --> 00:31:12.150 now, you know, I could build an 00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:14.430 interface myself. I don't have to care 00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:16.390 about, you know, the border radius and 00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:18.510 pixels. I could just ask my agent to 00:31:18.520 --> 00:31:20.430 tell me, "Hey, here's some other 00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:23.070 examples of of things that I like. Uh 00:31:23.080 --> 00:31:25.110 please make it for me, right?" And they 00:31:25.120 --> 00:31:27.390 miss a lot of the expertise in that. And 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:30.590 especially, especially, I think people 00:31:30.600 --> 00:31:33.750 forget that the agents, these LLMs, are 00:31:33.760 --> 00:31:37.230 predictive models. They are based off of 00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:39.110 stuff that has already existed. And in 00:31:39.120 --> 00:31:41.790 many cases, that's correct, right? To go 00:31:41.800 --> 00:31:43.830 ahead and use things that people exist 00:31:43.840 --> 00:31:45.030 and and you know, and meet those 00:31:45.040 --> 00:31:47.150 expectations. But 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:49.310 when you have a unique problem that 00:31:49.320 --> 00:31:50.990 needs to be solved, that is a perfect 00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:53.830 opportunity for a designer to come in 00:31:53.840 --> 00:31:56.910 and solve that very unique problem that 00:31:56.920 --> 00:31:59.710 needs to be solved that ultimately has 00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:02.470 never been stored in an LLM's, you know, 00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:04.790 vector database anywhere, right? That is 00:32:04.800 --> 00:32:07.270 something that a human ultimately should 00:32:07.280 --> 00:32:10.310 be crafting that has experience in 00:32:10.320 --> 00:32:12.590 solving those kinds of problems, not 00:32:12.600 --> 00:32:15.670 necessarily a person who hasn't, but 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:18.990 just has, you know, the tools available 00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:20.910 to potentially do so, right? That's the 00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:23.550 That's the thing that I think people are 00:32:23.560 --> 00:32:26.030 uh haven't necessarily woken up to in 00:32:26.040 --> 00:32:28.390 the squishing part of it all, right? 00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:30.510 This that squishy part that's just like, 00:32:30.520 --> 00:32:31.870 okay, we're just going to squish this 00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:33.310 design 00:32:33.320 --> 00:32:34.870 um you know, 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:37.310 expert role into into, you know, a 00:32:37.320 --> 00:32:38.630 person that already existed, that's 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:40.670 already building stuff because design 00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:42.550 isn't really that hard, right? That's 00:32:42.560 --> 00:32:43.910 how they feel. 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:46.870 Uh but again, it's the design is not all 00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:49.310 about the visual part. In fact, again, I 00:32:49.320 --> 00:32:51.550 put a lot of emphasis on 00:32:51.560 --> 00:32:53.670 that problem-solving part. And if you 00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:54.830 And if you don't put do the 00:32:54.840 --> 00:32:58.110 problem-solving part properly, then the 00:32:58.120 --> 00:32:59.470 rest of it's going to be just a house of 00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:01.670 cards and the whole thing will fail. 00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:03.390 But again, also, they don't feel the 00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:06.150 pain in that cuz they'll just prompt 00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:07.230 again 00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:09.430 for another thing the following day or 00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:11.190 the following week and feel like that's, 00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:12.070 you know, that's how they're going to 00:33:12.080 --> 00:33:14.430 solve their problems. And I have my own, 00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:16.590 you know, like analogy about that that 00:33:16.600 --> 00:33:19.150 I'll I'll leave alone for right now, but 00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:21.030 um you know, I think 00:33:21.040 --> 00:33:23.110 what What are you Are you 00:33:23.120 --> 00:33:24.830 seeing both of those 00:33:24.840 --> 00:33:25.830 um 00:33:25.840 --> 00:33:28.630 camps, those cultures, are

you seeing a 00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:31.310 lot more of one than the other? 00:33:31.320 --> 00:33:32.710 W- Where are you Where do you What are 00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:34.150 you seeing on all that? 00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:35.510 >> There was a lot There was a lot in 00:33:35.520 --> 00:33:36.870 there. Yeah. 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.790 And and and so I I think 00:33:39.800 --> 00:33:41.150 So yes, I think there you know, there 00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:42.590 there was like this perception for a 00:33:42.600 --> 00:33:44.790 long time and you know, and it's cliche 00:33:44.800 --> 00:33:46.110 at this point, but people like, "Oh, 00:33:46.120 --> 00:33:47.950 design, you're just the the polish on 00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:49.430 it, right? Like, hey, I built this 00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:50.470 thing, can you make it make it look 00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:52.590 nice, right?" And of course, that was 00:33:52.600 --> 00:33:54.150 like the tip of the iceberg, you know, 00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:55.910 in terms of what design work, and most 00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:57.830 of our work was doing a lot of this like 00:33:57.840 --> 00:33:59.750 deep understanding and thinking and 00:33:59.760 --> 00:34:01.390 planning out the process and making sure 00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:03.270 things were going to be usable and and 00:34:03.280 --> 00:34:04.350 all this and 00:34:04.360 --> 00:34:06.150 additional things. And like only a lot 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:07.630 of times at the very end of it was like, 00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:09.669 you know, um the that visual polish, 00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:10.909 which I still think is actually 00:34:10.919 --> 00:34:12.990 incredibly important and raises things 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:16.149 up, but uh 00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:17.909 and you can't just say, "Here's this 00:34:17.919 --> 00:34:19.230 thing. Oh, it's broken and it doesn't 00:34:19.240 --> 00:34:20.550 really work that well, but can you not 00:34:20.560 --> 00:34:21.869 make it look nice right now cuz I did 00:34:21.879 --> 00:34:23.950 these things?" So I think there's the 00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:25.909 you know, the that those camps, I think 00:34:25.919 --> 00:34:29.030 that that that has always been false and 00:34:29.040 --> 00:34:31.790 I I think one thing So it's been good 00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:33.750 and bad, right? You've had people that 00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:35.710 suddenly have a lot more empathy, right? 00:34:35.720 --> 00:34:36.869 Designers have more empathy for 00:34:36.879 --> 00:34:38.510 engineers understanding how hard it is, 00:34:38.520 --> 00:34:40.350 and engineers having more empathy for 00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:42.270 designers for, you know, first it looks 00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:44.270 like it's magic, it's great. Uh you're 00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:45.590 doing a little side project, it's 00:34:45.600 --> 00:34:47.110 wonderful. I want to sing it's pretty 00:34:47.120 --> 00:34:49.430 good. Uh oh, wait, you're really doing 00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:50.710 something for customers and it really 00:34:50.720 --> 00:34:52.110 needs to be high quality and these and 00:34:52.120 --> 00:34:53.750 and it's and it's really not obvious how 00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:55.430 you would solve this and you're running 00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:57.190 into trouble and people are finding this 00:34:57.200 --> 00:34:59.270 hard to use and I don't know what to do 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:00.270 and it's starting to build a little bit 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.310 of the empathy the other way. 00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:03.990 I I think 00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:05.990 again, we're running into that, you 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.390 know, us and them issue. Um 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:10.350 but I think a few a few things. So, one 00:35:10.360 --> 00:35:12.030 is 00:35:12.040 --> 00:35:14.110 uh I don't think 00:35:14.120 --> 00:35:15.550 so the speed of things are going, first 00:35:15.560 --> 00:35:17.270 of all, it um 00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:18.910 like one I think people are getting 00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:20.630 overwhelmed, right? So, tons and tons of 00:35:20.640 --> 00:35:21.990 terrible interfaces are getting thrown 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:23.510 out there. People are doing more and I 00:35:23.520 --> 00:35:24.710 think we're we're almost at a point 00:35:24.720 --> 00:35:26.310 where we're going to get in a tremendous 00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:28.790 pushback from users being like, "Enough. 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:30.670 Stop changing this." Right? Like, I'm 00:35:30.680 --> 00:35:32.630 not I don't want more. I'm like, I don't 00:35:32.640 --> 00:35:34.990 even understand what this is. Um and so 00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:36.390 I think there there will be a little bit 00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:38.070 more thoughtfulness coming through these 00:35:38.080 --> 00:35:40.390 things. But two, with with the scale of 00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:41.470 things 00:35:41.480 --> 00:35:43.630 um and just the numbers and the ratios, 00:35:43.640 --> 00:35:45.430 like especially in traditional places, 00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:46.830 designers aren't going to be able to see 00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:50.310 everything. And we need to find a way 00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:51.910 for just like I want designers, 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:53.430 especially if it's a low engineering 00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:54.750 effort thing, designers should be able 00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:55.910 to do that and leave the engineers for 00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:57.510 something that's really complicated. If 00:35:57.520 --> 00:35:59.310 engineers are doing something and it's a 00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:01.870 low effort design element, it's pretty 00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:03.590 contained, it's pretty obvious, I'd like 00:36:03.600 --> 00:36:04.950 to find ways that they can do that so 00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:06.990 that design so that the designers who 00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:08.430 are ex- the people that are expert in 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:10.190 this design thinking can spend their 00:36:10.200

--> 00:36:11.670 time doing really complex things there 00:36:11.680 --> 00:36:13.390 and the people that are expert in the 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:15.030 engineering thing can spend their time, 00:36:15.040 --> 00:36:16.830 you know, doing there and we kind of and 00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:18.470 we and we more 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.630 push like the easier stuff to, you know, 00:36:20.640 --> 00:36:23.750 to AI and these things. To get there, 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:25.870 like engineering has a head start 00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:28.910 because they've had 25 years of 00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:31.070 finding ways to have several different 00:36:31.080 --> 00:36:33.750 people collaborate and maintain quality, 00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:35.070 right? They've got all these, you know, 00:36:35.080 --> 00:36:36.710 automated tests and different structures 00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:38.350 that they've been working, and code 00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:40.150 reviews, and there's a whole world of 00:36:40.160 --> 00:36:42.670 processes that have been built up around 00:36:42.680 --> 00:36:45.190 helping engineers maintain a certain 00:36:45.200 --> 00:36:47.190 level of quality, and having different 00:36:47.200 --> 00:36:49.430 people contribute. Design didn't really 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:50.710 have to do that as much. We've had 00:36:50.720 --> 00:36:51.990 standards, we've had all these things, 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.430 but we were able, just because we were 00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:54.830 doing it before and it was a smaller 00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:56.150 group, and we had, you know, it was a 00:36:56.160 --> 00:36:57.390 little bit more person-to-person 00:36:57.400 --> 00:36:58.510 connection. 00:36:58.520 --> 00:37:01.310 Um, we were able to keep a lot of that 00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:06.270 in in our heads and keep it internally. 00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:08.310 Hindering us right now, right? If you 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:10.830 can actually document, like, okay, when 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:13.230 we say this is what we mean by good 00:37:13.240 --> 00:37:14.910 design, you can have a breakdown of 00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:17.070 that. I think it helps a lot. Both 00:37:17.080 --> 00:37:18.230 there's probably like some basic 00:37:18.240 --> 00:37:20.270 standards, and then, you know, okay, for 00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:21.990 our visual DNA, like this is what's 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:23.510 important. I know people have been 00:37:23.520 --> 00:37:26.070 trying really hard to do this with AI 00:37:26.080 --> 00:37:27.710 and skills and things like that, and to 00:37:27.720 --> 00:37:29.710 varying levels of success, and design 00:37:29.720 --> 00:37:32.230 systems are like clearly a huge part of 00:37:32.240 --> 00:37:35.470 that. But like part of that effort is, I 00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:36.870 think if we can start to document those 00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:38.750 things, my hope is not that engineers 00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:40.390 will do a whole bunch of design, but

00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:42.270 that when there's some pretty simple 00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:43.550 stuff that doesn't need a designer 00:37:43.560 --> 00:37:44.750 really think through it, then sure, they 00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:46.910 can do that, right? And and I want them 00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:48.590 thinking about those things as well. And 00:37:48.600 --> 00:37:50.190 then designers can do these more complex 00:37:50.200 --> 00:37:52.910 things. But the other thing, and I know 00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:53.990 there's a bunch of thoughts in this one, 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:56.750 too. I would rather like companies have 00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:59.510 also been terrified of having engineers 00:37:59.520 --> 00:38:01.990 not coding. Right? They always like this 00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:03.270 whole thing is that they're like ship, 00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:04.230 ship, ship. That's how they've been 00:38:04.240 --> 00:38:05.750 evaluated for years, and that's part of 00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:07.710 the reason why things have exploded. I 00:38:07.720 --> 00:38:09.070 want to take 00:38:09.080 --> 00:38:10.190 and then like someone who has an 00:38:10.200 --> 00:38:11.310 engineering background and someone who 00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:12.750 has a design background, you know, and 00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:15.030 make them a make them a team and pull 00:38:15.040 --> 00:38:17.030 them together earlier in the process. 00:38:17.040 --> 00:38:18.390 And having them both collaborate, 00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:19.630 talking with customers and these types 00:38:19.640 --> 00:38:22.070 of things. And and and then when they 00:38:22.080 --> 00:38:24.550 build it, they'll have more context. I 00:38:24.560 --> 00:38:26.630 So many engineers for years, you know, 00:38:26.640 --> 00:38:27.430 have been telling me I don't want to be 00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:29.270 a ticket taker, I want to understand. 00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:30.510 Cuz it does, it causes problems, it 00:38:30.520 --> 00:38:32.310 causes churn. So I want to take 00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:33.750 everybody earlier and have them go 00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:36.110 through the process. And then sure, then 00:38:36.120 --> 00:38:37.270 if but if that engineer's going to make 00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:38.270 some decisions, but they'll have some 00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:39.590 context and they can check with you 00:38:39.600 --> 00:38:41.470 really quickly, you know, and it's not 00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:43.910 like a completely separated thing. Uh 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:45.310 and then you're working on something and 00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:46.750 you'll be checking with them. And and so 00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:48.910 then it it's much more of like a team 00:38:48.920 --> 00:38:50.030 who are supporting each other a little 00:38:50.040 --> 00:38:52.430 bit when they can and leveraging tools 00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:54.470 when they can. But I do think it's 00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:55.870 actually really important have everybody 00:38:55.880

--> 00:38:57.910 go back to the beginning and have that 00:38:57.920 --> 00:38:59.870 like what are we trying to solve? 00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:01.550 What are the customers actually saying? 00:39:01.560 --> 00:39:03.910 And getting that alignment. And I think 00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:05.670 hopefully, like this is not at all 00:39:05.680 --> 00:39:08.230 proven, this is not definite. My hope is 00:39:08.240 --> 00:39:10.990 AI allows companies to structure things 00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:13.350 a bit differently so that you move these 00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:15.390 full groups of people, you know, a range 00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:17.710 of skills earlier and they take things 00:39:17.720 --> 00:39:20.270 all the way together to the end. Uh 00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:21.830 just I think it's been so scary cuz 00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:24.230 engineers were so expensive to that you 00:39:24.240 --> 00:39:25.710 had to, you know, always have them 00:39:25.720 --> 00:39:27.710 working and maximizing it. 00:39:27.720 --> 00:39:29.910 But that caused like a waterfall effect 00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:31.430 and it and it causes disconnect. So 00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:32.950 that's where I hope some of those 00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:34.830 things. So I'm pretty sure I answered 00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:36.830 some of your questions more in there. 00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:37.950 >> Yeah. Oh, you did. Oh, you did. 00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:39.710 Absolutely. And you know, I think 00:39:39.720 --> 00:39:41.310 another thing came to mind in there. I I 00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:44.910 I love the putting the designer and the 00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:47.190 engineer together in a little pod and 00:39:47.200 --> 00:39:50.350 have them work on a nice little e-size 00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:52.510 unit of work, right? Like a nice like a 00:39:52.520 --> 00:39:54.110 nice chunky little size unit of work 00:39:54.120 --> 00:39:56.110 that's like, okay, here's your task 00:39:56.120 --> 00:39:58.030 together, go ahead and figure this out. 00:39:58.040 --> 00:40:01.750 It reminds me of a presentation that Dan 00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:03.510 Mall and Brad Frost, I think they did it 00:40:03.520 --> 00:40:05.830 at um Clarity years ago. 00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:07.870 It was called the hot potato. And 00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:09.710 effectively what would happen is Dan 00:40:09.720 --> 00:40:13.150 would would uh create this like um 00:40:13.160 --> 00:40:15.150 you know, mock-up, but it wasn't a full 00:40:15.160 --> 00:40:17.710 mock-up, it was like an exploration, 00:40:17.720 --> 00:40:20.550 right? And Brad had access to his 00:40:20.560 --> 00:40:22.070 mock-up. This was even I think before 00:40:22.080 --> 00:40:24.070 Figma, too. So, they were like probably 00:40:24.080 --> 00:40:25.670 doing some InVision stuff in there, just 00:40:25.680 --> 00:40:26.750 you know, sending back stuff back and 00:40:26.760 --> 00:40:28.950 forth. But ultimately, you know, Brad 00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:30.790 could look at

what his what what Dan was 00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:31.990 doing and go, "Oh, let me try 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:33.343 something." Right? And he 00:40:33.353 --> 00:40:34.270 [clears throat] would play around and 00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:36.390 and sure, yes, you know, Brad is is more 00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:38.110 designer than maybe engineer, certainly. 00:40:38.120 --> 00:40:39.070 But 00:40:39.080 --> 00:40:39.750 um 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:41.510 but he was trying some stuff over there 00:40:41.520 --> 00:40:44.110 and then would, you know, send that back 00:40:44.120 --> 00:40:45.630 over to Dan and be like, "Dan, what do 00:40:45.640 --> 00:40:46.630 you think of this?" And he's like, "Oh, 00:40:46.640 --> 00:40:48.270 okay. Well, let's try this this this and 00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:51.830 this." Right? And that kind of 00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:54.630 experience, I think would be incredible 00:40:54.640 --> 00:40:57.550 to kind of have at scale, right? Where 00:40:57.560 --> 00:40:59.150 you have, you know, cuz what we see 00:40:59.160 --> 00:41:00.790 right now is we have like a what the 00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:02.430 ratio of engineers to designers is like 00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:03.990 10 to 1 or 8 to 1 or something like 00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.750 that, right? What if it was closer to 1 00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:09.630 to 1? Right? Right? Where maybe there's 00:41:09.640 --> 00:41:11.670 an opportunity and, you know, I don't 00:41:11.680 --> 00:41:13.150 know exactly what the ratio would look 00:41:13.160 --> 00:41:14.870 like where you you know, do you increase 00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:16.590 the the designers? Do you decrease the 00:41:16.600 --> 00:41:17.870 engineers? What does that look like? I'm 00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:20.310 not I have no idea. But ultimately, to 00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:24.510 get it closer to the 1 to 1, so you get 00:41:24.520 --> 00:41:26.350 basically not all the pressure that you 00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:27.390 would normally have in a design 00:41:27.400 --> 00:41:29.270 engineer, right? Cuz they're kind of in 00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:30.750 some places, like we're talking about 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:32.310 for startups, they're in charge of like 00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:34.470 too much. Right? They're in charge of 00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:36.310 like basically the entire, you know, 00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.030 what the experience is all the way down 00:41:38.040 --> 00:41:39.350 to actually putting it to prod. That's a 00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:42.110 lot. That's a lot for the one individual 00:41:42.120 --> 00:41:43.990 to go ahead and do. So, like to split it 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:46.590 up amongst two people who have the 00:41:46.600 --> 00:41:48.670 expertise in, you know, those those 00:41:48.680 --> 00:41:51.430 those individual areas, but can meet in 00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:52.790 the middle 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:55.230 through the building process and have 00:41:55.240 --> 00:41:57.230 the collaborative kind of hot potato 00:41:57.240 --> 00:41:59.670 kind of experience. I admittedly think 00:41:59.680 --> 00:42:00.950 you'd have to have a better product. 00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:02.510 You're going to have that better 00:42:02.520 --> 00:42:04.430 collaboration. The language be hopefully 00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:05.830 be closer because again, they're they're 00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:07.830 working together as opposed to being 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:09.990 like, "Here's, you know, it it it almost 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.070 feels like the designer is in a group of 00:42:12.080 --> 00:42:13.990 10 engineers going, well, you know, it's 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:15.350 10 against one, of course they're going 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:16.550 to win. The engineers are going to win, 00:42:16.560 --> 00:42:18.950 right? If it's one against one, you have 00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:22.030 a much better shot of winning, and I 00:42:22.040 --> 00:42:23.630 don't really mean to say winning as much 00:42:23.640 --> 00:42:26.710 as I say communicating, right? Um so, 00:42:26.720 --> 00:42:30.190 I'm I'm 100% behind trying to get you 00:42:30.200 --> 00:42:32.830 know, a close a better ratio 00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:34.870 uh out there. Do you Do you have any 00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:36.710 thoughts about like 00:42:36.720 --> 00:42:37.990 you know, what 00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:39.230 what it would take to get a better 00:42:39.240 --> 00:42:41.070 ratio, especially as a leadership in 00:42:41.080 --> 00:42:42.070 design? 00:42:42.080 --> 00:42:44.070 >> I I definitely do. I'll have to say like 00:42:44.080 --> 00:42:45.470 this is not uh this will be me 00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:47.150 personally talking. This is not Data 00:42:47.160 --> 00:42:48.150 Dog. 00:42:48.160 --> 00:42:49.870 Um and it's definitely what we're we're 00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:51.510 doing. Um 00:42:51.520 --> 00:42:52.830 but 00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:54.950 I I I can see a world, and I don't know 00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:55.830 if this is definitely where it's going 00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:58.670 to going to be. I I I like I I I see a 00:42:58.680 --> 00:43:01.430 world, um but I you know, we'll have to 00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:04.350 see where things actually come together. 00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:05.310 But 00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:07.750 I can imagine people who were kind of 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:09.230 really interested in the front end, 00:43:09.240 --> 00:43:11.150 right? Uh of code and these types of 00:43:11.160 --> 00:43:12.870 things, and people who are in design, 00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:14.510 like a good portion of those people 00:43:14.520 --> 00:43:15.990 might kind of merge together into a 00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:17.230 different role. 00:43:17.240 --> 00:43:18.830 Into something new, and it won't be a 00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:20.350 historically design role, it won't be a 00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:22.030 historic engineer role, it is something 00:43:22.040 --> 00:43:22.990 new. 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:25.430 Uh but I

think I don't think we're going 00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:26.590 to their companies are going to go and 00:43:26.600 --> 00:43:27.990 hire 00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:28.670 uh 00:43:28.680 --> 00:43:30.430 you know, triple triple their design 00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:32.630 teams right now. I think you know, AI is 00:43:32.640 --> 00:43:33.630 making it harder and harder for 00:43:33.640 --> 00:43:36.590 companies to decide to to hire at all. 00:43:36.600 --> 00:43:38.430 And so, I it's going to take a while for 00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:41.750 ratios to change, but I do see 00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:43.230 the possibility of people saying, "Hey, 00:43:43.240 --> 00:43:44.830 there's this is role, and actually oh, 00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:46.630 this is also an engineering role, and 00:43:46.640 --> 00:43:48.510 this is a design role. Like I can I can 00:43:48.520 --> 00:43:50.430 put my identity into this." And I could 00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:52.510 imagine places where a good portion of 00:43:52.520 --> 00:43:55.030 the people that really love that final 00:43:55.040 --> 00:43:56.430 level of 00:43:56.440 --> 00:43:58.990 of the experience, and and people that, 00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.550 you know, and really like creating that 00:44:00.560 --> 00:44:02.830 from a design, really kind of being 00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:04.030 being these roles. That's probably like 00:44:04.040 --> 00:44:05.710 would double the size, my guess is of 00:44:05.720 --> 00:44:07.350 like of the ratio. So, it's not going go 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:08.870 from 00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:10.430 you know, if it was it was 1 to 10, 00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:12.750 maybe it goes to 1 to 5, right? You 00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:13.550 know, so I don't think it's going to 00:44:13.560 --> 00:44:14.910 fundamentally change, but maybe some of 00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:16.110 those, you know, some people are working 00:44:16.120 --> 00:44:18.110 on things which are purely back end and 00:44:18.120 --> 00:44:19.590 things like that. I think you get in 00:44:19.600 --> 00:44:22.270 teams where it's about one person who's 00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:24.230 really focusing on this experience from 00:44:24.240 --> 00:44:26.430 the user and and front end stuff, and 00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:28.270 then you've got a couple people working 00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:29.950 on the technical side. 00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:31.350 We haven't talked about product at all 00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:33.590 either. Um 00:44:33.600 --> 00:44:36.070 that is that is I I'm less confident 00:44:36.080 --> 00:44:37.630 knowing where where I think that will 00:44:37.640 --> 00:44:39.470 go, but there also might be a world 00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:41.710 where like this there's a world where 00:44:41.720 --> 00:44:43.790 everybody needs to and become a builder. 00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:47.270 And you and and so, you know, you've got 00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:48.790 people, you know, I could imagine people 00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:50.190 coming from product, people from 00:44:50.200 --> 00:44:52.070 engineering, and from design coming into 00:44:52.080 --> 00:44:54.950 this new role 00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:56.550 of of you know, what experience 00:44:56.560 --> 00:44:58.230 engineer, design engineer, whatever ends 00:44:58.240 --> 00:44:59.510 up being. 00:44:59.520 --> 00:45:00.270 Um 00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:04.750 uh and and and and and shaping products 00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:06.750 from that that perspective, while people 00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:08.150 in the, you know, in the in the in the 00:45:08.160 --> 00:45:09.470 more back end shape it from this other 00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:11.990 side. It really's kind of collaborating. 00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.310 Um and of course, I think there's always 00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:14.270 going to be experts. I think there's 00:45:14.280 --> 00:45:15.830 always going to be absolutely incredible 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:17.710 visual people that are like, "No, this 00:45:17.720 --> 00:45:19.150 is just like I'm 00:45:19.160 --> 00:45:20.910 incredible here." And and we'll need 00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:22.510 those. I think they'll be motion people. 00:45:22.520 --> 00:45:24.510 I think there's going to be business 00:45:24.520 --> 00:45:26.150 people that are just like amazing at 00:45:26.160 --> 00:45:27.470 understanding markets and these types of 00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:28.990 things. So, I'm not at all saying like 00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:30.430 everyone's going to come here, but I 00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:32.310 think there's going to be a large number 00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:34.150 of people. And I but I don't think it's 00:45:34.160 --> 00:45:35.630 going to become from hey, we're going to 00:45:35.640 --> 00:45:37.710 go hire a bunch of designers. I think 00:45:37.720 --> 00:45:39.790 it's going to 00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:42.310 teams kind of coming more together 00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:44.990 in into different things and 00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:45.950 uh 00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:47.270 and and and become and becoming 00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:48.510 something new and that starting to 00:45:48.520 --> 00:45:50.750 balance out the ratios. And you know, I 00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:52.310 we start to see this in companies in 00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:55.670 different places. Um it it is definitely 00:45:55.680 --> 00:45:56.750 one of those things that makes people 00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:58.710 nervous. 00:45:58.720 --> 00:46:01.350 It it's I you you every role down the 00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:03.510 line is nervous about that, um which is 00:46:03.520 --> 00:46:04.670 why I wanted to be really clear like 00:46:04.680 --> 00:46:06.230 this is not necessarily you know, this 00:46:06.240 --> 00:46:08.590 is not reflecting what uh you know, 00:46:08.600 --> 00:46:10.150 uh you know, DataDog specifically. But, 00:46:10.160 --> 00:46:11.830 that is to something where I see as an 00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:13.390 individual where I see there's these 00:46:13.400 --> 00:46:14.870 things

potentially happening in in the 00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:16.390 world and that there might be this 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:18.510 consolidation around 00:46:18.520 --> 00:46:20.190 this 00:46:20.200 --> 00:46:21.990 user-focused 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:23.910 uh you know, 00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:27.750 front-end level uh role. And you can 00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:30.510 both design and build and understand the 00:46:30.520 --> 00:46:31.830 the business needs as well. 00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:33.670 >> Yeah. Yeah, it it sounds a little bit 00:46:33.680 --> 00:46:35.910 more like I guess one of from from where 00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:38.550 I'm standing is point is like maybe the 00:46:38.560 --> 00:46:41.430 way that the the teams are structured or 00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:44.190 or or composed might have a little bit 00:46:44.200 --> 00:46:46.630 of a change with the existing resources 00:46:46.640 --> 00:46:48.070 that that a particular organization 00:46:48.080 --> 00:46:51.670 might have as opposed to truly hiring, 00:46:51.680 --> 00:46:53.830 you know, new individuals out there. Cuz 00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:55.510 effectively, these are the same 00:46:55.520 --> 00:46:57.110 individuals. Like these are we're not 00:46:57.120 --> 00:46:58.870 growing new individuals out there. These 00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:00.110 are the same individuals that either 00:47:00.120 --> 00:47:02.710 have specialties or generalities that 00:47:02.720 --> 00:47:04.270 that are going to be fitting into the 00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:06.390 right spots into these places. I mean, 00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:07.670 when you were talking about the 00:47:07.680 --> 00:47:09.190 expertise of you know, things like 00:47:09.200 --> 00:47:11.310 motion, I'm thinking about Bonnie Kate 00:47:11.320 --> 00:47:12.470 Wolfe that was on the show a couple of 00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:15.070 months ago, who is very specifically 00:47:15.080 --> 00:47:17.630 into icons, right? That's her her thing. 00:47:17.640 --> 00:47:21.070 And could you have an LLM generate some 00:47:21.080 --> 00:47:23.950 icons for you? Yes. Could you have um 00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:26.110 you know, uh use material icons remix? 00:47:26.120 --> 00:47:28.630 Yes, you could. But, when you hear what 00:47:28.640 --> 00:47:30.190 her expertise is, 00:47:30.200 --> 00:47:30.670 >> Mhm. 00:47:30.680 --> 00:47:32.270 >> right? And you're like, wait a minute, I 00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:33.790 never thought about those kinds of 00:47:33.800 --> 00:47:35.790 things. Like, you know, when you ask 00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:37.550 like, what does family look like as an 00:47:37.560 --> 00:47:39.030 icon? When she was explaining to me her 00:47:39.040 --> 00:47:40.710 thought process with that, like, when 00:47:40.720 --> 00:47:41.750 you think about what family is a 00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:43.310 preferred icon, you give that to an LLM, 00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:44.310 you're going to get like the three 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:45.990 people with the heads of avatars put 00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:47.590 together. That's what you always get. 00:47:47.600 --> 00:47:49.710 But, the way that she thinks about it is 00:47:49.720 --> 00:47:52.550 so unique and and thoughtful, and I'll 00:47:52.560 --> 00:47:53.870 really going to emphasize the thoughtful 00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:57.790 on it that no LLM is going to do that 00:47:57.800 --> 00:48:00.510 um uh uh what she does out of that it 00:48:00.520 --> 00:48:03.070 really is a very 00:48:03.080 --> 00:48:05.590 niche thing that she has for the right 00:48:05.600 --> 00:48:07.510 places, right? The right places that 00:48:07.520 --> 00:48:09.550 want that kind of personality which for 00:48:09.560 --> 00:48:11.990 some places 00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:14.070 that personality, that brand is very 00:48:14.080 --> 00:48:16.150 important, right? To have that brand to 00:48:16.160 --> 00:48:18.150 say look, this is how you trust me. You 00:48:18.160 --> 00:48:20.750 trust me because our brand is so 00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:22.790 specific to your needs and it's specific 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.310 to to the way that we portray ourselves. 00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:27.510 And to have that level of care is super 00:48:27.520 --> 00:48:30.590 important that no LLM 00:48:30.600 --> 00:48:32.430 is going to regurgitate for you. You 00:48:32.440 --> 00:48:35.230 need those experts in there to help 00:48:35.240 --> 00:48:37.350 drive what that looks like for those 00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:39.710 folks again who have you know the chops 00:48:39.720 --> 00:48:43.030 to to drive that visual you know kind of 00:48:43.040 --> 00:48:45.030 you know language you know in in some 00:48:45.040 --> 00:48:46.350 cases, yeah. 00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:47.670 >> Yeah, and [snorts] you type designers 00:48:47.680 --> 00:48:48.630 and all these types of things. I mean 00:48:48.640 --> 00:48:50.030 it's absolutely you know it it's 00:48:50.040 --> 00:48:51.790 absolutely incredible work. And I I 00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:53.270 think what's interesting with with with 00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:54.870 I mean I don't who knows where LLMs are 00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:57.190 going to go. I mean any types of things. 00:48:57.200 --> 00:48:59.750 But I find it's like it's never been 00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:01.550 it's it's like whatever you're great at 00:49:01.560 --> 00:49:03.430 the LLM's not better than you. Like if 00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:04.590 someone's really great at something then 00:49:04.600 --> 00:49:06.030 we're not going to have an LLM that's 00:49:06.040 --> 00:49:07.030 not better than the people that are 00:49:07.040 --> 00:49:09.230 great at that thing. Uh what I think is 00:49:09.240 --> 00:49:11.190 they're interesting is is how it can 00:49:11.200 --> 00:49:13.470 help you go into areas that you weren't 00:49:13.480 --> 00:49:15.510 you know really able to do very well or 00:49:15.520 --> 00:49:17.270 or a level you up so you can be pretty 00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:19.110 good. And I and sometimes

I think that's 00:49:19.120 --> 00:49:22.630 okay, right? Uh we had UI designers and 00:49:22.640 --> 00:49:24.630 UX designers for a long time. And and 00:49:24.640 --> 00:49:25.910 and they everybody came together in 00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:27.870 product design. And it was disruptive in 00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:29.670 a lot of places. Uh and there were 00:49:29.680 --> 00:49:30.830 people like I'm specialized here and 00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:32.390 specialized there. And they all became 00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:33.790 the same um 00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:35.550 that you still knew hey I've got a 00:49:35.560 --> 00:49:37.870 really UI focused thing I'll give to 00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:39.190 this person. I've got a really UX 00:49:39.200 --> 00:49:40.190 complicated thing I'll give to this 00:49:40.200 --> 00:49:41.190 person. 00:49:41.200 --> 00:49:42.710 Uh but they all had the same title in 00:49:42.720 --> 00:49:44.830 the same group and it was you just you 00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:46.190 know you did the different range of of 00:49:46.200 --> 00:49:48.310 things and you supported each other and 00:49:48.320 --> 00:49:49.830 these types of and things but they were 00:49:49.840 --> 00:49:52.350 able to do it, right? It's sort of like 00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:54.310 "Hey, anyone here can do this whole 00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:55.870 thing. Different people will spike in 00:49:55.880 --> 00:49:57.750 different areas, but that's all right." 00:49:57.760 --> 00:49:59.110 And I feel like it's kind of the 00:49:59.120 --> 00:50:00.470 similar, you know, things when you 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:01.950 approach things with LLM's. If you want 00:50:01.960 --> 00:50:02.910 something that's going to be like the 00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:04.590 best thing at this, 00:50:04.600 --> 00:50:06.030 um then yeah, you're you're going to 00:50:06.040 --> 00:50:07.590 want the person that's that's the best 00:50:07.600 --> 00:50:08.470 at that. 00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:08.790 >> Yeah. 00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:11.070 >> Um but if you want something, you know, 00:50:11.080 --> 00:50:12.510 but that's often times like what we 00:50:12.520 --> 00:50:14.350 found like we you know, a lot of work 00:50:14.360 --> 00:50:16.430 has been about I still think a lot of it 00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:18.870 comes down to context. A lot of work, 00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:20.310 you know, used to be broken down or 00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:21.950 always doing very very specific 00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:23.750 functions and you'd pass something from 00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:25.470 one function to another and there were 00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:28.190 these tremendous experts at every level, 00:50:28.200 --> 00:50:30.270 right? Uh but what happened is they lost 00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:32.790 sight of the whole, right? And and you'd 00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:34.630 lose context at every step in the way. 00:50:34.640 --> 00:50:37.230 And there are there's times for 00:50:37.240 --> 00:50:38.830 specialists, there's times when doing 00:50:38.840 --> 00:50:40.550 great things and going deep in, but 00:50:40.560 --> 00:50:43.590 there's also times for 00:50:43.600 --> 00:50:45.230 actually what's really important is 00:50:45.240 --> 00:50:47.630 being able to take this holistic view of 00:50:47.640 --> 00:50:49.550 something and really understand it and 00:50:49.560 --> 00:50:51.550 really care about it. And 00:50:51.560 --> 00:50:54.910 and intend it along the way uh and drive 00:50:54.920 --> 00:50:56.390 things in that sense. So I think there's 00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:59.190 sort of a balance uh uh you know, as we 00:50:59.200 --> 00:51:01.230 use any of these tools to make sure that 00:51:01.240 --> 00:51:02.390 you are 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.310 uh you know, if if it's expanding what 00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:05.390 you can do and you're getting pretty 00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:06.790 good, that's fine. You just also need to 00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:08.550 know like, "I'm still really good at 00:51:08.560 --> 00:51:10.550 this and I'm okay at this other area. It 00:51:10.560 --> 00:51:12.790 doesn't made me an actual absolute 00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:13.390 expert." 00:51:13.400 --> 00:51:14.750 >> Yeah, I think it's super important to 00:51:14.760 --> 00:51:16.310 know what you're good at and what you're 00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:19.030 not good at and be okay with that as 00:51:19.040 --> 00:51:21.030 opposed to you know, claiming that that 00:51:21.040 --> 00:51:22.710 you know, otherwise uh you know, you're 00:51:22.720 --> 00:51:23.910 you're you know, I mean, fake it till 00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:25.110 you make it certainly. There's 00:51:25.120 --> 00:51:26.670 definitely there's definitely a level of 00:51:26.680 --> 00:51:28.870 that for for sure in there, but there's 00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:30.390 something something mature about knowing 00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:31.470 what you're good at, what you're not 00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:32.990 good at, what you can hand off to folks 00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:34.270 that are better at those things and 00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:36.070 really balance people out. 00:51:36.080 --> 00:51:36.750 Um 00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:38.390 >> But I actually I think designers are set 00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:39.870 up so well 00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:41.150 because of just like just how we've 00:51:41.160 --> 00:51:42.470 approached things. It's so much about 00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:44.110 design has been going about and 00:51:44.120 --> 00:51:45.590 understanding someone else, right? And 00:51:45.600 --> 00:51:48.950 design and asking questions, and and 00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:50.310 learning. Be like, "Okay, I'm not an You 00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:51.910 know, you have to design something for a 00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:53.750 specialist, right?" You're someone in a 00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:55.030 particular field. Well, you're going to 00:51:55.040 --> 00:51:56.110 go in there, and you're going to be 00:51:56.120 --> 00:51:57.150 like, "Well, tell me what

you're doing. 00:51:57.160 --> 00:51:58.710 What is your What is your process? How 00:51:58.720 --> 00:52:00.230 would you decide this?" 00:52:00.240 --> 00:52:02.070 Okay, what are you evaluating these 00:52:02.080 --> 00:52:03.470 different things? Like, we we have this 00:52:03.480 --> 00:52:05.270 approach when we go to things, and I 00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:06.550 think that's one of the sort of the 00:52:06.560 --> 00:52:08.470 things that makes design incredible. 00:52:08.480 --> 00:52:12.190 Well, I've seen when designers are using 00:52:12.200 --> 00:52:13.630 uh LLMs in ways that, you know, for 00:52:13.640 --> 00:52:15.190 things I'm not familiar with. Sometimes 00:52:15.200 --> 00:52:16.590 they just write code, and and sure, you 00:52:16.600 --> 00:52:18.470 get that. But, I've also, you know, and 00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:19.630 I've been trying to train my team to do 00:52:19.640 --> 00:52:21.630 the same thing. Just treat this almost 00:52:21.640 --> 00:52:23.630 like you were uh 00:52:23.640 --> 00:52:25.870 you know, doing some user research. And 00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:27.950 be like, "Okay, uh how would someone 00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:29.910 approach this problem?" And okay, if you 00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:32.270 were uh like a staff engineer thing, 00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:33.430 like, what what would be the types of 00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:34.950 things, you know, you decide between? 00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:36.270 And why would you this? And it's almost 00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:39.230 like a little bit of a design process um 00:52:39.240 --> 00:52:40.910 in terms of understanding what someone 00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:42.230 else is going through. And of course, as 00:52:42.240 --> 00:52:43.870 you do it more and more, you learn. But, 00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:45.310 I think like, there's something about 00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:47.510 design process and design thinking that 00:52:47.520 --> 00:52:49.030 actually sets us up really well to 00:52:49.040 --> 00:52:51.590 interact with LLMs to do things really 00:52:51.600 --> 00:52:53.870 effectively. Uh and, you know, I you 00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:54.950 know, it obviously that is stuff that 00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:56.710 can be trained, but I I it always was 00:52:56.720 --> 00:52:58.270 kind of amazing to me being just like 00:52:58.280 --> 00:52:59.670 watching designers go through this 00:52:59.680 --> 00:53:00.830 process. Be like, "Oh, I've been doing 00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:02.390 this for years, right? I I This is like 00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:04.350 me doing research. Uh you know, 00:53:04.360 --> 00:53:06.150 uncovering uh you know, how how this 00:53:06.160 --> 00:53:07.630 particular expert would would do 00:53:07.640 --> 00:53:08.070 things." 00:53:08.080 --> 00:53:09.870 >> Yeah, doing some learning, for sure. 00:53:09.880 --> 00:53:12.110 Um just as a a final question here, cuz 00:53:12.120 --> 00:53:12.990 we were talking about the future of 00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:16.670 design. Is there

anything that you can 00:53:16.680 --> 00:53:18.470 think of that 00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:20.270 has to relate to the future of design 00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:23.350 that people aren't talking about, that 00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:26.310 are that that that isn't being part of 00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:28.310 the conversation that you think might 00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:31.830 want to be raised at all? 00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:32.870 And I know I'm putting you on the spot a 00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:33.390 little bit. 00:53:33.400 --> 00:53:35.550 >> Right. No, I mean, um 00:53:35.560 --> 00:53:40.830 uh 00:53:40.840 --> 00:53:42.190 Let's see. 00:53:42.200 --> 00:53:45.190 I think that 00:53:45.200 --> 00:53:46.910 where 00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:48.310 I I think one of the big thing I mean 00:53:48.320 --> 00:53:49.750 people are talking about all all kinds 00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:51.310 of things. I think the one issue that 00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:53.910 we're running into is a big part of 00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:57.030 design has been mentorship. 00:53:57.040 --> 00:53:58.030 Um and it's something that we've been 00:53:58.040 --> 00:53:59.390 bringing up, you know, and other people 00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:01.990 and that 00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:03.630 I think we're going to run into like an 00:54:03.640 --> 00:54:06.190 industry-wide issue in a couple years 00:54:06.200 --> 00:54:08.670 where fewer and fewer 00:54:08.680 --> 00:54:10.110 junior designers have been hired or 00:54:10.120 --> 00:54:12.510 people coming into coming into the field 00:54:12.520 --> 00:54:13.990 uh because companies are, you know, 00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:15.790 pressed for costs or not focusing on AI 00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:18.630 and leveraging these things and that 00:54:18.640 --> 00:54:20.390 we have to be really intentional like 00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:23.510 right now about uh making sure that 00:54:23.520 --> 00:54:25.870 we're bringing in 00:54:25.880 --> 00:54:27.350 talent that we can still grow because 00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:28.830 part of 00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:30.150 part of I think design really is 00:54:30.160 --> 00:54:32.790 learning to to you know, to 00:54:32.800 --> 00:54:34.510 to help, you know, manage other people 00:54:34.520 --> 00:54:35.590 and these things and I think that then 00:54:35.600 --> 00:54:37.390 translates to AIs and these things and 00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:39.470 knowing but I think learning how to grow 00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:41.670 grow the field is is is something that's 00:54:41.680 --> 00:54:44.070 absolutely vital and where I mean I know 00:54:44.080 --> 00:54:45.350 people are talking about it but the 00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:47.990 noise of AI and how do I build with AI 00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:50.190 and how do I build for AI has been has 00:54:50.200 --> 00:54:52.630 been dominating and and it is a major 00:54:52.640 --> 00:54:53.470 issue but I think that's something you 00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:55.230 have to be really intentional about 00:54:55.240 --> 00:54:56.750 right now as we go forward. 00:54:56.760 --> 00:54:58.270 >> Yeah. No, really really good thought on 00:54:58.280 --> 00:54:59.910 that for sure. Yeah, the bringing the 00:54:59.920 --> 00:55:01.630 the the juniors in there the the people 00:55:01.640 --> 00:55:04.510 the next generation of designers out 00:55:04.520 --> 00:55:06.030 there because I'll tell you what I in 00:55:06.040 --> 00:55:07.470 some of the presentations that I've seen 00:55:07.480 --> 00:55:08.950 for some of the the the younger folks 00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:10.470 that are out there they're doing some 00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:12.230 really cool stuff. They're doing some 00:55:12.240 --> 00:55:15.430 really cool stuff. Yeah. Um so it would 00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:17.470 really be great to see 00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:19.390 a lot of those folks 00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:21.790 flourish in in areas that you know, 00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:23.510 maybe we we aren't paying attention to 00:55:23.520 --> 00:55:24.990 because we were, you know, old and 00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:26.270 traditional. I don't know if you want to 00:55:26.280 --> 00:55:27.830 call it that [laughter] way but there's 00:55:27.840 --> 00:55:29.110 some there's some you know, there's some 00:55:29.120 --> 00:55:30.230 really cool stuff that I would have 00:55:30.240 --> 00:55:31.550 never thought of that was like oh wow, 00:55:31.560 --> 00:55:32.830 you know, look at the technology that I 00:55:32.840 --> 00:55:34.830 never even considered that that some of 00:55:34.840 --> 00:55:35.950 these folks are playing with which is 00:55:35.960 --> 00:55:37.253 really cool. 00:55:37.263 --> 00:55:37.750 >> [snorts] 00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:39.350 >> Um speaking of of playing with 00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:41.310 technology, um 00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:45.510 I I understand that uh you uh uh are 00:55:45.520 --> 00:55:47.830 have the ability to mentor someone 00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:50.470 potentially through uh a physical medium 00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:51.663 such as a book. 00:55:51.673 --> 00:55:53.070 >> [laughter] 00:55:53.080 --> 00:55:54.310 >> Uh so I 00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:56.110 >> Yeah, what a segue. Yes, I'm trying I'm 00:55:56.120 --> 00:55:58.070 trying over here. But uh we have we have 00:55:58.080 --> 00:55:59.470 the Yeah, the end of the show over here, 00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:00.470 so I wanted to get an opportunity to 00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:01.870 plug what's going on. I know you got 00:56:01.880 --> 00:56:02.510 that book. 00:56:02.520 --> 00:56:04.790 >> Yeah, I'm uh yes, so I just have a book. 00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:06.670 It's It's currently on pre-release. Um 00:56:06.680 --> 00:56:09.070 so it's it's product design engineering 00:56:09.080 --> 00:56:11.150 and it's a guide for designers to learn 00:56:11.160 --> 00:56:14.150 how to build uh and ship code with AI. 00:56:14.160 --> 00:56:16.230 Um it looks something like this. Uh if 00:56:16.240 --> 00:56:17.190 you were to get it,

it's going to be 00:56:17.200 --> 00:56:18.350 really you know, so it's or it's 00:56:18.360 --> 00:56:20.230 available for pre-release on Rosenfeld 00:56:20.240 --> 00:56:22.910 Media right now, but you can go and um 00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:24.510 you'll be able to get it on Rosenfeld 00:56:24.520 --> 00:56:26.150 Media or Amazon. I think it's like 00:56:26.160 --> 00:56:28.750 November 19th. Uh but you can pre-order 00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:29.790 it now and and there's there's there's 00:56:29.800 --> 00:56:31.510 there's like a 15% off discount if you 00:56:31.520 --> 00:56:33.590 do it now. But the the idea behind it 00:56:33.600 --> 00:56:36.270 though is is that it's not so much the 00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:38.150 coding part that that's the hardest for 00:56:38.160 --> 00:56:40.710 designers. It's all this language and 00:56:40.720 --> 00:56:42.350 things around code that made it 00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:44.190 difficult. So the book is really just to 00:56:44.200 --> 00:56:46.230 be a really practical guide of giving 00:56:46.240 --> 00:56:47.910 everyone that standard baseline that 00:56:47.920 --> 00:56:50.230 every engineer has of just first of all, 00:56:50.240 --> 00:56:52.030 like basically, how do I navigate in 00:56:52.040 --> 00:56:53.710 terminal, right? And just like 00:56:53.720 --> 00:56:55.110 wayfinding, like what are the minimums 00:56:55.120 --> 00:56:56.230 you need to know to feel comfortable 00:56:56.240 --> 00:56:58.230 there. How does Git work, right? And 00:56:58.240 --> 00:56:59.550 just really understanding why are there 00:56:59.560 --> 00:57:01.910 three steps to effectively save it or 00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:02.990 what's the difference between Git and my 00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:05.110 computer and GitHub uh and these types 00:57:05.120 --> 00:57:06.630 of things. And how does the code review 00:57:06.640 --> 00:57:08.630 work and what are these processes? And 00:57:08.640 --> 00:57:10.710 just understanding that basic end-to-end 00:57:10.720 --> 00:57:12.550 flow uh and you can really do it just 00:57:12.560 --> 00:57:14.590 like, you know, just doing it once, that 00:57:14.600 --> 00:57:17.230 I think really unlocks the ability to 00:57:17.240 --> 00:57:19.230 communicate with your engineers and and 00:57:19.240 --> 00:57:20.950 do so much more, and then you can build 00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:22.670 on that and grow. So the book is really 00:57:22.680 --> 00:57:25.790 just to help designers get to that level 00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:27.750 and be able to kind of move into code in 00:57:27.760 --> 00:57:29.630 a really comfortable way. Uh and it's 00:57:29.640 --> 00:57:31.870 based on a a that I did uh that, you 00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:33.590 know, was kind of honed from from my own 00:57:33.600 --> 00:57:35.350 group, but it was really about how do I 00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:36.830 It took like a bunch of times trying to 00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:38.990 teach my team and doing a really bad job 00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:40.390 at

it initially 00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:42.190 um on how to actually get them to to 00:57:42.200 --> 00:57:43.630 move in the space and then kind of hit 00:57:43.640 --> 00:57:45.150 on like, oh, it's this other language 00:57:45.160 --> 00:57:46.910 that's missing. It's these things. And 00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:49.070 then I did that and it was it was kind 00:57:49.080 --> 00:57:50.630 of incredible. I It was I found 00:57:50.640 --> 00:57:52.310 actually, like I said, I had I when I 00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:54.390 was starting my my previous role, we had 00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:56.070 UI designers and UX designers. We had 00:57:56.080 --> 00:57:58.310 people that were like a little bit more 00:57:58.320 --> 00:57:59.750 logical fo- focused and a little bit 00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:02.070 more like visual focused. And I was 00:58:02.080 --> 00:58:04.030 like, oh, I know the UX designers are 00:58:04.040 --> 00:58:04.910 you know, now they're all product 00:58:04.920 --> 00:58:05.630 designers, but I know the people that 00:58:05.640 --> 00:58:07.230 came from UX that are going to get this. 00:58:07.240 --> 00:58:08.950 I don't know if the UI designers will as 00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:10.710 much. And it was so interesting. It was 00:58:10.720 --> 00:58:12.710 the UI designers that took to it more 00:58:12.720 --> 00:58:15.510 than anything. Cuz once we unlocked kind 00:58:15.520 --> 00:58:17.070 of like, you know, like the secret 00:58:17.080 --> 00:58:18.630 language, you know, or like or just the 00:58:18.640 --> 00:58:20.430 terminology of these things, and they're 00:58:20.440 --> 00:58:22.150 like, wait a minute. This stuff has been 00:58:22.160 --> 00:58:24.270 bothering me so much. I'm going to go I 00:58:24.280 --> 00:58:25.510 can go fix this. I don't have to ask 00:58:25.520 --> 00:58:26.870 permission. I don't have to do these 00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:28.670 thing you know, and it was just amazing. 00:58:28.680 --> 00:58:29.910 They were the ones that took off with 00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:31.550 it. Uh and it was just incredible to 00:58:31.560 --> 00:58:32.430 see. 00:58:32.440 --> 00:58:33.750 Uh but yeah, so it's it's meant to be, 00:58:33.760 --> 00:58:35.070 you know, it's it's from the course and 00:58:35.080 --> 00:58:36.230 these types of things and from my own 00:58:36.240 --> 00:58:38.870 teams. Um I trained the the DataDog team 00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:40.230 on it as well. It's supposed to be a 00:58:40.240 --> 00:58:41.950 fairly easy thing to do and I just hope 00:58:41.960 --> 00:58:42.750 hope it helps people. 00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:44.910 >> Yeah. And I'm going to also plug it as 00:58:44.920 --> 00:58:46.750 well because uh David did give me early 00:58:46.760 --> 00:58:49.190 access to it. I did read the book. And 00:58:49.200 --> 00:58:51.110 when I tell you uh you know, folks at 00:58:51.120 --> 00:58:51.990 home 00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:56.190 that I wish I had this book as a person 00:58:56.200 --> 00:58:58.950 who was design, front end, whatever you 00:58:58.960 --> 00:59:01.110 want to call it, back then 10, 11 years 00:59:01.120 --> 00:59:03.230 ago when I didn't really know what I was 00:59:03.240 --> 00:59:05.270 doing, right? I was getting introduced 00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:07.670 to concepts where I was making my own 00:59:07.680 --> 00:59:09.070 websites, you know, on the side with 00:59:09.080 --> 00:59:10.390 jQuery and stuff like that. Just, you 00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:11.430 know, again, like we were saying 00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:13.430 earlier, you're in this bubble and then 00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:14.910 when you start having to work with other 00:59:14.920 --> 00:59:16.510 people, there's a language that you need 00:59:16.520 --> 00:59:19.350 to speak. And what this book does is it 00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:22.190 gives you that language to speak between 00:59:22.200 --> 00:59:24.270 both design and engineering. I think it 00:59:24.280 --> 00:59:26.470 is a great book for both. It's a great 00:59:26.480 --> 00:59:29.230 book for both designers and engineers to 00:59:29.240 --> 00:59:31.670 learn what the the the gaps are and to 00:59:31.680 --> 00:59:33.150 try to close them so that start this 00:59:33.160 --> 00:59:34.990 communication a lot better. 00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:37.430 Um and it really gives designers 00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:39.630 um kind of the permission that they need 00:59:39.640 --> 00:59:41.470 to start building that they haven't 00:59:41.480 --> 00:59:43.270 already, right? Even if you're playing 00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:45.150 around with some cloud right now or 00:59:45.160 --> 00:59:47.390 whatever element you're working with uh 00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:49.190 and you you're doing it in your silo, 00:59:49.200 --> 00:59:51.870 this book is going to help you start 00:59:51.880 --> 00:59:54.350 branching out and potentially working 00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:57.270 with those engineers that you might want 00:59:57.280 --> 00:59:59.590 to uh have a partnership with and do 00:59:59.600 --> 01:00:01.870 cool things with. So, yeah, I think this 01:00:01.880 --> 01:00:04.590 is a great book for that thing. Uh not 01:00:04.600 --> 01:00:07.030 sponsored. I really do do actually 01:00:07.040 --> 01:00:09.550 believe this thing. Um but uh David, 01:00:09.560 --> 01:00:10.830 thank you so much for being on the show. 01:00:10.840 --> 01:00:14.190 I really appreciate it. Uh and um yeah, 01:00:14.200 --> 01:00:16.350 thank thank you again. 01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:18.150 >> Thank you for having me. That's great. 01:00:18.160 --> 01:00:20.270 >> And uh thank you for watching the show. 01:00:20.280 --> 01:00:21.550 Uh before you go, please help out the 01:00:21.560 --> 01:00:23.950 show by smashing that like and subscribe 01:00:23.960 --> 01:00:25.350 button the next time that we go live. 01:00:25.360 --> 01:00:27.190 And uh feel free to continue the 01:00:27.200 --> 01:00:28.710 conversation on the official Design 01:00:28.720 --> 01:00:31.110 Systems uh House Discord by going to 01:00:31.120 --> 01:00:32.630 discord.ds.house. There it is on the 01:00:32.640 --> 01:00:34.190 bottom right there. Uh play nice in 01:00:34.200 --> 01:00:35.910 those comments and I'll see you on the 01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:47.071 internet. Bye. 01:00:47.081 --> 01:01:02.792 >> [music] 01:01:02.802 --> 01:01:04.822 [music]