บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ The Workplace Conversations You Can't Afford to Ignore

And I would say that in terms of the kind of the picture across the three years of the survey, it's pretty similar. 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:22.159 So what we're uncovering is a fairly consistent picture of high levels of distress and mental health issues amongst HR professionals. 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:35.439 So some of our key findings, we found that 74% of our respondents were experiencing symptoms of depression and 44% met the criteria for clinically significant symptoms. 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:45.439 And that figure, if you compare it with the the UK general population, is that is two and a half times higher than rates of depression in the general population. 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:49.280 For anxiety, a very similar picture. 00:02:49.520 --> 00:03:02.000 So 73% of respondents with symptoms of anxiety, 40% meeting the clinical threshold, and again just over two and a half times higher the rate in the general population. 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:10.000 In terms of burnout, 32% likely suffering from burnout, and a further 12% at risk of burnout. 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:14.240 So we've got 74%, you've got a concerning sort of symptom. 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:26.080 Low levels of well-being evident in 63% of our respondents, and 74% scoring below the UK population average for well-being. 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:26.800 Yeah. 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:28.800 That's a pretty s pretty stark picture. 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:33.360 So three quarters of the people who responded are at risk or experiencing burnout. 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:33.919 That's right. 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:35.120 Yeah, absolutely. 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:54.000 And for me as a clinician, you know, people who are meeting the criteria for for clinical conditions like anxiety and hyperdepression, you know, that's really concerning because those are the people, you know, had I seen these people in my clinics when I was working in the NHS, you know, those are the people that I would have been taking action on. 00:03:54.159 --> 00:04:04.400 You know, I would have been referring for medication, I would have been thinking about therapy, I would certainly have been doing a more thorough assessment to establish whether those things were required. 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:06.719 So we'd need to be taking action on those people. 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:13.759 And we're talking, you know, 44% of people meeting the threshold for depression, that's half, almost half of HR professionals. 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:22.399 And yet we're still having them go to work and expecting them to absorb the emotional and cognitive load of everybody else's challenges on top of how they're currently feeling. 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:24.240 And they're responsible for well-being. 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:26.240 I mean, there's an irony there, isn't there? 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:35.839 Because you've got a you know, a function that's responsible for well-being, and yet their well-being is likely to be a lot worse than everyone else in the organization. 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:40.000 Do you think we have a um what's the right word? 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:41.600 A self-perception problem? 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:46.639 Like your your comment earlier about um the resilience expectan. 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:49.759 I think that some of that is self-driven too. 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:58.160 Like we hold ourselves, we think we are supposed to be the propository of everybody else's challenges and we're supposed to be able to carry the load. 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:07.199 Do you have a view on how much of this might be unrealistic workplace expectations versus our own internal dialogue? 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:10.399 You know, I I I think it's a joint project. 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:14.240 You know, the reality is it's a narrative that we've all bought into. 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:23.519 I I think it's important to highlight that certainly in the UK, I mean I've looked at the figures, and something like 75% of HR professionals are female. 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:32.079 So you know, there's a connection, isn't there, between the job and the work and the fact that this is a predominantly female profession. 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:34.879 And women are socialized into caring roles. 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:50.399 If we're socialized to be carers and to feel that, and and and we so we grow up with an expectation that that's the way that we should be, that we should put other people's needs first, that a caring role is the right role for us to be in, that we shouldn't put on our own needs first. 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:56.160 And so there's that already there in our DNA before we even go into the workplace. 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:01.680 And then, of course, we're all, you know, women are much more predominant in professions that our people facing. 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:23.600 So we're attracted to jobs that are about caring, and that, but we've got that narrative in our DNA already when we go into the workplace, and then we're met with you know, we contrive together us and the organizations to create this narrative or this expectation that we can just carry the load, you know, and it's convenient for organizations to have that expectation. 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:28.959 As I think you alluded to earlier, it's like, oh, it's tricky and it's difficult and it's messy, and I don't want to deal with it. 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.160 Oh, it's good because we've got HR and they can deal with it, you know. 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:34.800 So it's great, you know, we don't have to think about it. 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:40.000 Yeah, we are the stress relievers, which is great, but you're not actually doing anything to relieve the stress of the stress relievers. 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:46.319 Okay, so hopefully that that's enticed you a little bit to be thinking about what's happening in the world of work today. 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:49.839 And I would follow that up with the conversation I had with Dr.

00:06:50.000 --> 00:07:00.000 Paul Zach, who is a neuroscientist in California, who has created an app that measures of whether you are thriving at work, which I think is a fantastic thing. 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:08.160 Uh, and we at Neuralworks have started to use that with some of our clients and are doing dashboards and tests with people to help them really see if you're thriving. 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:09.040 What he Dr. 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:22.000 Paul Zach has done is use your biometric data, the sort of things that come off your Apple Watches, your Garmin's, your Fitbits, to actually assess to what extent you are feeling safe in your work environment and to what extent you are engrossed in the work that you are doing. 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:27.600 So, in the run of a day, when you're feeling safe and you are engrossed, you have that kind of key moment. 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:30.800 And if you have six key moments a day, you are thriving. 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:45.759 And so we can now start to measure some of that in a meaningful way, which gives you as an individual a chance to really understand how you're doing and what's making you great and what's filling your cup and what's giving you energy and what's making you love life and what isn't. 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:57.600 And as organizations, we don't get quite the same level of data because of privacy, but we can also see across the organization how are our teams doing, how are our people doing, and where do we want to intervene to really ensure that our people and teams are thriving. 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:00.959 Because let's face it, if people are thriving, they win, and so does the organization. 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:03.519 So have a listen to the episode snippet here from Dr. 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:07.680 Zach, and hopefully that'll see something interesting for you when you can check out the full episode. 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:09.680 I have a pet peeve with the word engagement. 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:12.000 I think it's so overused, it's just meaningless at this point. 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:14.079 Like, how engaged am I now talking to you? 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:15.120 Three, nine? 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:16.720 I don't there's no baseline. 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:23.680 So the nice thing about neuroscience is every brain has a baseline, and because the brain's so energy hungry, it wants to return to that baseline. 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:27.759 So when we measure neurologic immersion, we're always looking at changes from your own baseline. 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:29.439 So baselines to each individual. 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:30.480 Um so that's the first thing. 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:34.240 And the second is the individual employee learns about himself or herself. 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:36.159 What do I love doing so much there? 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:44.480 And then on this anonymized enterprise interface, then I can ask, am I creating a workplace culture so that people can really thrive? 00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:56.080 So what we've shown in the published research is that people who thrive, that is people who maintain positive mood and high energy, get six or more of these well-defined peak immersion experiences a day. 00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:10.879 And so my view is if I want to sustain my organization's survival, profits, uh, growth, I need to have sustainable humans, first of all, because until our robot over large takeover, it's humans who are creating value for the organization. 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:20.639 And so by optimizing that experience, then we saw we find in the data that people have higher energy because they've optimized their day for what's really valuable to them. 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:22.240 It's just one of those weird things, right? 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:25.840 What you love doing, you just put more effort into and you are more productive. 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:29.519 Secondly, we actually created a physiologic measure of psychological safety. 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:31.360 So again, that's a one-second time series. 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.679 I don't have to ask you in some quarterly review, do you feel safe at work? 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:36.799 You still may want to do that. 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:44.080 I'm okay with getting people's personal reports, but um I I'm uh just nurse size is expensive and I'm a cheap, cheap guy. 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:56.559 And so I think from an organization's perspective, you know, if you find out that your um Vancouver office has really high psychological safety and your Toronto office doesn't, find out what's happening in Vancouver. 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:57.440 Just copy it, right? 00:09:57.519 --> 00:09:59.120 I mean, don't recreate the wheel. 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:06.080 So by having these data, I can objectively then look at the KPI from doing organizational interventions. 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:18.960 Have we actually made this department, this organization more productive, more effective because we've created this um situation, this set of social norms in which people can truly thrive? 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:36.320 Because as someone who works with workplaces to try and make them better, those pieces about engagement, what we often get given like tools that are we did an engagement survey, we did a once-in-a-year engagement survey where we went and asked people questions, and then we may get to interview people about what work they're doing. 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:50.240 The problem I have with both of those tools, and I'm not saying not to do them because I think they can be useful, but you're asking me once to think back over the full 12 last 12 months and give you an accurate reflection of all the things that happened and parcel that up. 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:52.480 And then you're asking me about what I did today. 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:57.279 So when we do like org design work, we'll ask people to track their work and tell us about their work.

00:10:57.360 --> 00:10:59.120 They don't even remember what they did in the day. 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:01.440 Like, never mind what they did 12 months ago. 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:14.720 And so when you talk about your data and what you capture with six, which is the app I'm gonna ask you about in a second, I'm like, that's that's someone's brain telling us what's important to them, not them filtering it through all how about they felt today, and the bad conversation they had with Bobby made them feel bad about words. 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:20.080 No, no, well, I'm actually getting how immersed they were in real time, which I think is f is fantastically useful. 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:20.879 Yeah, fantastic. 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:30.559 Yeah, and also, you know, I say people lie and and they lie for all kinds of reasons, not because they're malicious, because as you said, we remember the end of an experience or the peak of that experience. 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:32.720 Um, or people remember the most negative thing. 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:43.200 Well, maybe you want to figure out what made you so unhappy in the last 12 months, but from an organizational um design and transformation perspective, I really want that detailed data. 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:51.519 So we've have found at, for example, a number of tech companies that use the six app is that um Mondays are the lowest neurologic immersion day. 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:53.279 So people kind of burn out on Mondays. 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:56.639 Well, I can I can actually lean into that and go, okay, what should we do on Monday? 00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:03.679 Let's have uh so we worked with a um uh company called uh Herman Miller, big furniture maker. 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:08.639 And they have a big in their in their design yard in Holland, Michigan, they have this big coffee uh bar. 00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:10.159 And so they bought barisas in. 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:14.399 Hey, let's bring in barisas and and caffeinate the hell out of you guys on Monday, right? 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:17.440 And then have some muffins and like, hey, it's it's back to work. 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:18.639 We're excited you're here. 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:23.600 Let's create this culture where we socialize a little bit, we get to know each other, we facilitate those team bonds. 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:32.240 Like you can actually look at that, oh, doesn't actually increase those employees' ability to really be on and be productive as opposed to, oh crap, it's Monday. 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:33.440 I gotta show up at work. 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:38.399 Yeah, and then to your point earlier, you can make small changes and still measure the impact of those changes. 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:40.480 It doesn't have to be a massive organizational shift. 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:47.759 We can try something simple like shifting the team meeting to a Monday and having some fun at the team meeting and see if that actually changes the

data that we're collecting. 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:48.559 Sure. 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:56.159 So my third choice for our flashback is the conversation I had with Ange Crockwell, who's the ED of Thrive. 00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:07.360 And the reason I've picked this snippet is because when we're thinking about world of work today, if you are working with people, you are working with someone who's experienced trauma. 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:12.960 But we're still not really talking about trauma informed workplaces widely across the corporate world. 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:20.240 And I know that many leaders struggle with the idea of how do I support a person, what conversations do I have with a person? 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:22.879 Should I have those conversations because they're personal? 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:23.919 Should I not? 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:51.840 And sometimes the kindness of leadership is allowing a person to have their experiences, but holding the line and knowing that you cannot always be the person to provide support because you may not have the skills or experience or expertise or time to properly support that person, and that actually drawing that line in the sand and saying, no, I'm not the person to help you with this is as much a part of being kind and supportive to that person as anything else that you might do in the organization to help them. 00:13:52.000 --> 00:14:03.679 And I walked away from that episode reminding myself on it's okay to draw the line, and it's important to say when I've reached the limit of my experience and expertise and encourage people to go to the experts who can really help them. 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:17.919 I've had lots of conversations around boundaries and folks that struggle either because they're extremely kind people and they don't know when to stop, or because they just don't know where the line should be. 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:24.159 Like they're either in new leadership roles and they're like, I like I don't know where the line is between friend and leader and all those types of things. 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:29.600 Then I would imagine, and from my experience working with Thrive, boundaries in your world are crucial. 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:33.600 They are not uh nice to have, it is not something you can figure out as you go. 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:36.480 What advice do you have for folks who might struggle with setting boundaries? 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:38.720 Are there things that you have learned that other people could apply? 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:49.120 Yeah, we have so many conversations around boundaries and ethics, and I think, again, so critical in terms of trauma-informed practice. 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:53.519 People, again, people need to know where those boundaries are. 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:55.279 It is what keeps people safe. 00:14:55.360 --> 00:15:05.039 And for people who have histories of trauma, one of the things that has often happened to them is people have crossed

people's other people's personal boundaries. 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:12.000 And so it is actually ethical to have very strong and clear boundaries. 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:17.840 And sometimes people feel like, again, these are my friends or like co-workers. 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:21.039 Responsible for you because you work for me as all those things. 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:22.320 All of those things. 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:29.840 So I feel like being very clear around boundaries is is part of that trauma informed. 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:40.720 I understand as an executive director, there is a power that like I have in this role that other people in this organization do not have. 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:48.399 And so thinking about the right use of power, you know, like on lots of days I am doing the same thing as staff. 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:50.799 Like I will bring out the recycling to the curb. 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:59.519 I will like, you know, I don't operate as a power position in the organization, but I recognize the power that I have. 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:05.840 And it's really important for me to have very clear boundaries and not, I am not your friend. 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:12.639 Um, you know, often will say, I we will be friendly, but we are not friends. 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:19.600 Friends are somebody you can call at 12 o'clock on a Friday night and say, I'm in trouble, can you come help? 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:23.759 And you can't call me and co-workers shouldn't be doing that. 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:44.399 So I do think it's about thinking about this is a work situation, and we can care about people, and often people do find their friends at work, but when you're at work, there is a there is a coworker, there is a client, there is an employer, employer, uh, employee um boundary. 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:51.279 And to keep everybody safe and healthy, you actually need to operate within those parameters. 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:56.399 Because once it all starts to get blurred, it becomes confusing for people. 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:06.000 It's again for people with strong histories of trauma, it can actually feel really unsafe because why is my boss being my friend? 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:12.480 Like that doesn't for people who've had their boundaries crossed, that actually it often may not sit well. 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:16.480 Like this is not what a typical relationship would be. 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:23.759 So I think it's important to think about strong boundaries is actually strong ethical work behavior. 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:25.519 So number four. 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.720 I just I had to think a lot about these Ross was like, you've got to pick five, and I was like, Can I pick 15? 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:31.839 No, I have to pick five. 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:38.799 Uh so my number four would be the conversation that I had with Ashley Consolo, who is the provost from Acadia University. 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:45.839 And

there's lots of nuggets in that conversation because we talked about like generations coming into work and coming out of school and all those things. 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:54.400 Um but probably the biggest revelation I had through this entire series of conversations was my conversation with her about climate grief. 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:59.200 Like I'm obviously cognizant that the climate is changing and that that has implications. 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:02.480 I live in a part of the world that's not known for the best weather. 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:10.000 But I can't say that I'd ever really drawn a parallel between the weather and the climate and the world of work in any way. 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:14.319 Maybe in the days when you're, you know, your air conditioning breaks and it's too hot in the office. 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:23.119 But the idea that there are people in the world who are truly experiencing climate grief is something that I need to give more consideration to. 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:27.759 And perhaps suggest that I've been naive or ignorant about something that I need to move the dial on for myself. 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:29.680 So have a listen to the conversation with Ashley. 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:30.880 There's loads of good stuff in there. 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:34.480 But the climate grief thing stuck with me particularly, and I think it's really interesting. 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:40.400 Um, can we talk a little bit about your work in with Indigenous peoples, indigenous community, and climate resilience? 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:41.839 Would that be what you would call it? 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:57.359 Yeah, I actually don't talk about climate resilience because, and this is this came from doing work uh in communities, particularly in northern Labrador, where people would really talk about the problems of resiliency and how it's actually creates sort of hierarchies of privilege. 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:12.000 Um, so when you keep saying to someone, good for you, you're resilient, and it's so in the climate perspective or in colonial perspectives or residential school, you you praise the people who are continuing to survive the bad thing, but you don't fix the bad thing. 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:27.599 So this kind of in that context, the resiliency narrative is actually it can be very offensive because it's like, well, instead of praising me for making it through or praising me for being strong, fix the system that created these sort of inequities and problems in the first place. 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:33.519 Um, so what I look at is more the emotional and relational and mental health pieces related to a changing climate. 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:48.160 So how we relate to community and to land and to place, and then our futures, uh, and a lot of work around that future kind of piece, and then a lot of work around the emotional pieces, the grief pieces, and really thinking through like what does it mean to live in an ever-changing world? 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:53.839 What does it mean when we know the term that um is used all over the world is era of loss and damage? 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:58.240 So we have entered into this, we know there's going to be fundamental shifts to the climate and environment. 00:19:58.400 --> 00:19:59.279 There already is. 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.319 So, how do we live in an era of loss and damage? 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:16.319 And then when you tie it into sort of the classroom or the workspace, when we have more and more people who are directly impacted by climate change, floods, forest fires, hurricanes, like the devastating pieces, um, that impacts work in educational environments. 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:20.160 It impacts people's ability to learn and to, you know, actually go to work. 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:29.279 And then if you look at some of the slower, the creeping changes, the day-to-day changes that aren't the major break event, but cause significant anxiety or feature anxieties. 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:54.720 So now we're seeing a lot of the research that's coming out, particularly around some of the neuroscience work, the psychology and psychiatry, is uh huge disrupted um impacts to people's ability to work, ability to sleep, ability for um full cognitive function because you've got all this worry and anxiety, the amplification of other mental health challenges if they're present, um, the creation of changing family dynamics, um, even sense of hope for the future. 00:20:54.880 --> 00:21:01.839 So if people start to lose that sort of sense that they can dream a future or have the type of future they want, that impacts their choices of going to school. 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:03.440 It impacts what they do in the workplace. 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:14.640 Uh, and we're seeing a lot of trends now on much higher absence rates from workplaces because people are experiencing all sorts of stress and trauma related to climate change. 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:21.680 But if you're in an area where you're you're suddenly hit with a forest fire or a hurricane, like that is changing the whole sector as well. 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:32.880 So there's some really interesting pieces around how climate change will continue to impact our workplaces, our educational environments, and just individuals' people's ability to cope and adapt and respond. 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:41.200 And then how that interacts with all of the other emotional regulation pieces and all of the other stressors that are out there is people are really worried about futures. 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:46.319 There's a lot of future worry and future anxiety that's quite heavy and prevalent around this. 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:53.599 And so it's climate change, but it's also housing and food and global stability and politics and all of it, right? 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.000 So it's it's all compiled into one. 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:59.759 And it's that one is hitting all

generations, but obviously the youngest generation, too. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.839 Is really struggling with those pieces. 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:07.680 And my last pick, but by no means least, would have to be the conversation on menopause, because I'm in the middle of it. 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:11.039 If you work with women, you need to know about menopause. 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:17.519 Um, the conversation we had with Tina Pomeroy around menopause will not be the only one we have, but it was so helpful. 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:25.839 My two takeaways were one, I have never really thought about it as an evolution. 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:37.200 So we talk about it as a change, and sometimes we talk about it as a lessening, but thinking about it as an evolution and what more I might be becoming through perimenopause and menopause is not a lens I had had on it. 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:39.680 So that's kind of interesting to take away. 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:47.119 And the other piece that stuck with me was around recognising the seriousness of this situation and change for some women. 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:56.319 And so making sure you're educated at least a little bit on what perimenopause and menopause is and the impact it can have could just make a really big difference for the person working next to you. 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:03.519 So that would be my last pick, and we'll be talking more about menopause because I think there's still much more that needs to be said in the next season that we record. 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:24.079 Well, your your whole characterization of it earlier in this conversation around emphasizing the transition and that it's not a lessening in any way, and that actually it is simply a move an evolution to a new stage of thinking, operating, and being as a person is really interesting because I don't think we often see that characterization of it. 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:30.720 If anything, it's probably more what you described around we talk about the medical components of menopause and it is a medical thing that's happening to women. 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.319 So your idea that it's an expansion, I think, is a really interesting one. 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.519 What kind of led you to think about it or to talk about it that way? 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:47.039 Well, first when I was doing my research, I started reading these articles about how our cultures impact, like different cultures experience menopause differently. 00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:52.960 And also that our beliefs about aging can influence our experience in menopause. 00:23:53.119 --> 00:24:02.799 Our beliefs about menopause can obviously And I'm like, hey, wait a second, if this is like purely a medical thing, then wouldn't it be more consistent across the board? 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:08.240 And so I was like, oh yeah, like first of all, it's it's not consistent and every woman is different. 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:14.160 In fact, well, different societies have different uh values and different experiences with menopause. 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:18.079 In some societies, menopause is actually fantastic. 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:23.359 It means that a a woman is wise and and and like powerful, right? 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:28.319 Whereas in in our Western modern world, it's it's more about diminishing. 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:29.839 Now we're changing that. 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:31.839 That is starting to change. 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:46.720 That that's what kind of influenced my thinking that this is more holistic and this is more about you see women, powerful women, right, in their later 70s, 80s, 90s, and it's like, well, how come they're so powerful? 00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:51.759 And then you see these other women, you know, kind of or this perception of women being, you know, declined. 00:24:51.839 --> 00:25:01.200 It's like, well, I mean, I'm not gonna get into the history of this because it would take too long, but historically, when women women's health is not researched as much. 00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:05.039 Women women were hysterical when they were going through perimenopause. 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.599 That's why you know hysterectomy is called what it is. 00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:13.279 Oh my gosh, there's so much stuff I read about this stuff, and of course, that's in our DNA. 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:21.839 So, like we have those messages imprinted on us, we can't help it, and so it's gonna take a lot to shift that. 00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:43.759 But this idea of expansion and spirituality, so many women started when women's voices started being heard because they've been silenced for so long, and we're just starting to listen to women's voices, and all of a sudden they were talking about this being a spiritual awakening, an expansion, like a great thing. 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:46.000 I don't give a shit anymore, right? 00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:55.279 I can't I care about the things that are important to me and and that are important in the world, but I don't care about that drama over there or that over there that doesn't mean anything for me. 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.960 And so I, in my own experience, have had that as well. 00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:07.519 And then I started talking, and of course, a lot of my friends are in this phase, either perimenopause or or just past menopause, and they're also the same. 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:25.599 And I'm like, that's worth, even if it's not evidence-based research, that is so worth talking about this idea that we we're expanding, we are becoming greater, you know, and and it's not all medical. 00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:28.000 Yeah, there's physiological stuff happening. 00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:35.759 There is, but that doesn't mean that we're no longer intelligent, capable, attractive. 00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:45.599 Like, think about the beauty industry and uh the messages that we're getting about aging and how we need to fix our wrinkles and plump our lips. 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:54.720 And I'm not judging anyone that does any of that stuff, but we have to think about why are we getting we're getting those messages that that's what's beautiful. 00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:55.359 All right. 00:26:55.519 --> 00:27:04.640 And so when we start to shift out of that, like, no, what's beautiful is the fact that you don't you're awakened or you're enlightened and I don't like to use the word enlightenment, you're expanding. 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:16.079 So yeah, so it's like all kind of interconnected, but it's I like that idea way more than oh my god, our hormones are going away and all the we're losing everything. 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:17.119 We're losing everything, right? 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:19.039 I'm losing my I'm a hot mess. 00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.079 So that's a wrap on this season. 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:28.960 Hopefully, the recap there gave you some nuggets to listen into and some excitement for some episodes you might not have heard before. 00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:36.799 Uh, don't forget to like, subscribe, and please share so we can reach more people who are interested in talking about the way that work needs to work today. 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:40.400 And of course, our new season is coming up uh in the fall. 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:48.240 So between now and then, you can find us on Substack if you want to join our Substack community for more updates, articles, and tips and tools. 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:54.480 And then we'll see you for the new season to have more of the important conversations about making work really work.