บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Self Love Isn't Something I Grew Up With

watch on YouTube 40 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:15.599 or listen wherever you get your podcasts. 41 00:02:16.259 --> 00:02:16.599 Cheers. 42 00:02:22.789 --> 00:02:25.370 Megan Rapinoe here. This week on Why Are You Like This, 43 00:02:25.550 --> 00:02:29.210 I am talking with the hilarious Josh Johnson. We dig 44 00:02:29.270 --> 00:02:31.830 into all the twists and turns of his career that 45 00:02:31.870 --> 00:02:34.370 landed him on The Daily Show as a rotating host. 46 00:02:34.969 --> 00:02:38.330 He tells me why he releases a new comedy set 47 00:02:38.449 --> 00:02:42.210 each week and if he's more mommy, daddy, or baby. 48 00:02:42.810 --> 00:02:44.610 Check out the latest episode of Why Are You Like 49 00:02:44.629 --> 00:02:46.830 This wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. 50 00:03:01.900 --> 00:03:04.879 So I just came back about a week and a 51 00:03:04.900 --> 00:03:09.259 half ago. I got married in Pakistan to my now husband. 52 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:12.159 So I felt like maybe spending a few weeks with 53 00:03:12.219 --> 00:03:14.879 his family would help us bond and get to know 54 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:18.280 each other better. If you're at all aware of South 55 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:21.240 Asian weddings, it's always like a week long full of 56 00:03:21.300 --> 00:03:25.520 traditions and rituals. But it was also difficult because we 57 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.259 were trying to plan it across two continents and three countries. 58 00:03:30.289 --> 00:03:34.069 The wedding, at least for me and my experience, I 59 00:03:34.110 --> 00:03:36.949 feel like it kind of ended on a bit of 60 00:03:36.990 --> 00:03:42.069 a confusing note because I found out some information which 61 00:03:42.129 --> 00:03:45.800 I was not privy to before the wedding. And I'm 62 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:49.620 not sure if I had known before if the wedding 63 00:03:49.780 --> 00:03:50.840 would have gone through. 64 00:03:53.020 --> 00:03:53.439 Oh, wow. 65 00:03:53.460 --> 00:03:54.000 Okay. 66 00:03:54.020 --> 00:03:54.219 Okay. 67 00:03:55.490 --> 00:03:58.050 So now, of course, we have a fork, right? I 68 00:03:58.090 --> 00:04:00.509 can either say, what do you want to talk with 69 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:04.560 me about? Do we want to continue right here? Or 70 00:04:05.259 --> 00:04:06.580 is there a different question? 71 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.479 I think in some ways, both of them are related. 72 00:04:11.030 --> 00:04:15.090 The question I came to you with initially was, how 73 00:04:15.250 --> 00:04:20.959 do you begin the journey of self-love? It's something that 74 00:04:21.060 --> 00:04:25.949 I struggle a lot with, both externally to work as 75 00:04:26.029 --> 00:04:30.370 well as at work. And I think it manifests itself 76 00:04:30.449 --> 00:04:31.529 in different ways. 77 00:04:31.649 --> 00:04:36.569 So I'm going to ask you to feel free to 78 00:04:36.629 --> 00:04:41.100 broaden it within both contexts, right? Love and work are 79 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:45.079 probably two of the major poles of our lives. So 80 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:49.199 when you use the word self-love, which is a word 81 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:54.439 that is at the same time, very cultural, very contemporary, 82 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:58.319 probably has very different meaning in the US versus Pakistan, 83 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:02.300 and then has a very personal definition for you who 84 00:05:02.379 --> 00:05:06.579 lives between those two cultures as well. So you straddle 85 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:11.060 different worlds inside of you, and they probably deeply influence 86 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:15.149 the way that you define the word self-love and feel 87 00:05:15.829 --> 00:05:18.069 engaged with it or entitled to it. 88 00:05:19.250 --> 00:05:24.329 Absolutely. I guess the context is I've been working at 89 00:05:24.449 --> 00:05:27.379 my current firm for the last five and a half years, 90 00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:32.060 and I'm definitely a top performer. When I started my job, 91 00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:35.199 I didn't think I would be doing anything remotely similar 92 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:39.040 to that line of work, and I've been really successful 93 00:05:39.259 --> 00:05:44.060 at work with it. But I always seem to struggle 94 00:05:44.670 --> 00:05:47.689 talking about my work and seeing myself in the same 95 00:05:47.810 --> 00:05:52.569 light that my employer and my team sees me as. 96 00:05:53.250 --> 00:05:56.800 And it took me a while to get my last promotion, which, 97 00:05:56.980 --> 00:05:59.319 you know, because I don't do the same type of 98 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:02.639 work as everybody else, it's always a different business case 99 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:06.279 for my promotion. And it kind of just always leads 100 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:09.889 to self-doubt and like, I hear on my team with 101 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:13.540 my manager, you're doing great work. You're bringing skills and 102 00:06:13.660 --> 00:06:17.060 work and business that we wouldn't have gotten otherwise. But 103 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:21.360 then when it comes time for a promotion, I don't 104 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:24.879 get it. And sometimes I feel like it's because I 105 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:28.110 don't speak up for myself. When I talk to other 106 00:06:28.129 --> 00:06:31.490 people about this, the conversation always ends up with, I'm 107 00:06:31.569 --> 00:06:34.370 super self-aware. I know what I want. I know how 108 00:06:34.410 --> 00:06:38.670 to do it. But do I love myself enough? And 109 00:06:39.170 --> 00:06:42.240 I don't know what that means, if I'm being really frank. 110 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:46.660 I don't know what it means sometimes either. So let 111 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.660 me ask it to you differently. In the way you 112 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:53.120 see the world, do you have the sense that if 113 00:06:53.180 --> 00:06:57.939 you do your work really

well, if you bring skills, 114 00:06:58.220 --> 00:07:03.589 if you bring clients, if you further the growth of 115 00:07:03.629 --> 00:07:08.500 the company, etc., It is obvious that one way that 116 00:07:08.540 --> 00:07:12.009 that recognition should come to you is from the upper 117 00:07:12.089 --> 00:07:16.829 people discussing the promotion with you and not for you 118 00:07:17.149 --> 00:07:19.529 to have to go and ask for it. In the 119 00:07:19.589 --> 00:07:22.810 right order of things, if you do your job well, 120 00:07:23.529 --> 00:07:25.420 it's them who should be coming to you. 121 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:27.540 For sure. 122 00:07:27.899 --> 00:07:28.199 Okay. 123 00:07:28.699 --> 00:07:29.000 Yeah. 124 00:07:29.740 --> 00:07:33.899 And therefore, if they don't come, in that same worldview 125 00:07:34.660 --> 00:07:37.670 is the idea that if I was doing really great, 126 00:07:37.709 --> 00:07:40.310 they would come. Therefore, if they don't come, maybe I'm 127 00:07:40.350 --> 00:07:42.730 not doing as great as maybe I think I do 128 00:07:42.970 --> 00:07:44.129 or as they say I do. 129 00:07:44.829 --> 00:07:48.500 Yeah, for sure. To me, it's more merit-based. If I'm 130 00:07:48.939 --> 00:07:52.720 doing great work and you think I'm making an impact, 131 00:07:52.740 --> 00:07:55.399 then you wouldn't forget about me when it came time 132 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:56.250 for promotions. 133 00:07:57.529 --> 00:08:02.529 And therefore, if you are not going to go and 134 00:08:02.769 --> 00:08:07.569 ask for yourself... it is easy to see that you 135 00:08:07.670 --> 00:08:12.430 are lacking something to plead for yourself, to plead your case, 136 00:08:12.629 --> 00:08:15.879 to make your case, and to ask for more. That 137 00:08:15.949 --> 00:08:18.600 if you truly believed in yourself, you would be asking 138 00:08:18.660 --> 00:08:22.660 for more. And your view is, if people truly believed 139 00:08:22.740 --> 00:08:25.500 in me, they would be offering me more. Those are 140 00:08:25.540 --> 00:08:30.230 two cultural systems. This is not just personal. This is 141 00:08:30.269 --> 00:08:33.809 not just your own psychology. These are worldviews. Those are 142 00:08:33.850 --> 00:08:38.740 two different ways of organizing social systems. Is the concept 143 00:08:38.820 --> 00:08:41.399 of self-love common in Pakistan? 144 00:08:42.259 --> 00:08:45.720 No, absolutely not. The thing is, it's starting to be 145 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:49.299 with the newer generation that's more global. But if I 146 00:08:49.330 --> 00:08:51.269 went to my mom and I said, I'm doing this 147 00:08:51.389 --> 00:08:55.289 because I love myself, I grew up in a house 148 00:08:55.509 --> 00:09:00.110 where the whole mindset was, this world is not about me, myself, 149 00:09:00.210 --> 00:09:03.539 and I. And Americans are very me, myself, and I. 150 00:09:04.669 --> 00:09:08.429 We are not like that. We're contributors to the community. 151 00:09:08.610 --> 00:09:12.309 We think about others. We think about our family. Being 152 00:09:12.409 --> 00:09:17.309 selfish is not something that's perceived as being good, at 153 00:09:17.330 --> 00:09:20.759 least in our household, and then also probably the time 154 00:09:21.220 --> 00:09:25.659 that my parents reflect on in terms of their parenting, 155 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:28.120 what they use to parent us. 156 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:34.820 Right, absolutely. But of course, interestingly, individualism... is seen as 157 00:09:34.860 --> 00:09:39.279 a form of selfishness rather than it is the way 158 00:09:39.340 --> 00:09:42.919 that people in a structure where you can't rely on others, 159 00:09:43.179 --> 00:09:47.720 where people have been raised for self-reliance, this becomes their 160 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:51.889 mode of survival. It's more self-centered. It doesn't necessarily mean 161 00:09:51.929 --> 00:09:55.970 that it is selfish. So each culture looks at the 162 00:09:56.070 --> 00:10:00.279 other culture and defines it with its own terms. If 163 00:10:00.340 --> 00:10:03.820 you don't ask for a promotion, you don't feel confident. 164 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:08.580 You lack self-esteem. It's your problem. And then on the 165 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:12.950 other side, if people are thinking about themselves, then from 166 00:10:12.990 --> 00:10:16.370 the point of view, as you described, of your parents 167 00:10:16.450 --> 00:10:19.269 or other people in your community, it's it becomes very 168 00:10:19.350 --> 00:10:24.549 quickly defined as selfish because every person sometimes and every 169 00:10:24.610 --> 00:10:29.870 community sometimes defines the behaviors of the others through their 170 00:10:29.929 --> 00:10:33.669 own lens and how they would have interpreted that behavior 171 00:10:33.769 --> 00:10:39.039 according to their own cultural norms and values. Now, you 172 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:44.259 live in the States or somewhere close to here. You 173 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:50.049 have learned to translate between these two languages, between these 174 00:10:50.210 --> 00:10:55.659 two sets of norms for a long time. Is that true, 175 00:10:55.740 --> 00:10:56.279 first of all? 176 00:10:56.740 --> 00:10:58.220 Yeah, you're straight on. 177 00:10:58.580 --> 00:11:02.259 Okay. You know what your mother would say, but you 178 00:11:02.299 --> 00:11:05.110 also know that what you say is in part what 179 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:08.950 your mother would say and in part what your bosses 180 00:11:08.990 --> 00:11:12.149 would say, so to speak. There's a part of you 181 00:11:12.429 --> 00:11:16.750 that is very much oriented towards the recognition of others, 182 00:11:16.809 --> 00:11:19.789 the serving to the community, the not putting yourself front 183 00:11:19.850 --> 00:11:22.450 and center. And then there's another part of you that 184 00:11:22.509 --> 00:11:26.669 has ambitions, that wants to grow, that wants to

advance 185 00:11:26.730 --> 00:11:30.879 in your career, that does want that kind of recognition, 186 00:11:31.269 --> 00:11:33.919 but without having to go and push your elbows. 187 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:38.220 Yeah, it's, you know, our parents pushed us a lot 188 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:42.379 academically and it wasn't ever for money or for recognition. 189 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:45.429 It was to make impact in the world. I have 190 00:11:45.750 --> 00:11:48.610 had to learn how to speak up because I've realized 191 00:11:48.669 --> 00:11:51.960 that that's what's going to allow me to get more 192 00:11:52.009 --> 00:11:55.659 responsibility at work to succeed and then do what I 193 00:11:55.740 --> 00:11:57.779 came to do, which is make a greater impact. 194 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:02.539 So that is actually very beautiful because you have learned 195 00:12:03.059 --> 00:12:07.309 to speak up. You have learned an individual practice for 196 00:12:07.350 --> 00:12:08.649 a collective outcome. 197 00:12:09.509 --> 00:12:14.299 Yeah. it backfires often. You're right. I have learned how 198 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:18.419 to work in the corporate setting and it's always for 199 00:12:18.460 --> 00:12:21.940 the good of the rest of our team, but everyone 200 00:12:21.980 --> 00:12:24.970 else isn't working in that paradigm. So it's so easy 201 00:12:25.210 --> 00:12:29.429 to forget me when it comes time for those decisions 202 00:12:29.490 --> 00:12:33.669 or when it comes time for recognition because I often 203 00:12:33.710 --> 00:12:35.909 feel like I'm being used. People will come to me 204 00:12:36.350 --> 00:12:38.370 and they know I'm not going to say no to something. 205 00:12:38.850 --> 00:12:43.980 I'll help them with anything, but it doesn't work both ways. 206 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:48.259 Are you the only woman of color on your unit? 207 00:12:48.460 --> 00:12:51.360 Is there diversity on your team? 208 00:12:51.379 --> 00:12:56.700 I think our workplace is very inclusive and diverse. When 209 00:12:56.740 --> 00:13:00.289 I first started, I was the only person of color 210 00:13:00.450 --> 00:13:05.320 on my team. And now it's a mix. Some projects 211 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:07.379 I am and other projects I'm not. 212 00:13:08.460 --> 00:13:10.799 Do you have at all a sense that the reason 213 00:13:10.820 --> 00:13:15.909 that things don't come your way is because of issues 214 00:13:15.950 --> 00:13:19.309 of race and color? Or is it because you think 215 00:13:19.350 --> 00:13:23.669 the system says, this company, if you want to move ahead, 216 00:13:24.049 --> 00:13:25.950 you need to go and ask for it. They don't 217 00:13:26.009 --> 00:13:26.409 offer it. 218 00:13:27.210 --> 00:13:31.350 Yeah, it's definitely the latter. I don't think it's race, 219 00:13:32.090 --> 00:13:35.980 but it is definitely a company where self-promotion is absolutely 220 00:13:36.100 --> 00:13:40.580 critical as you continue to grow up the company. Okay. 221 00:13:42.259 --> 00:13:48.330 So that's a very important distinction because then the question becomes, 222 00:13:48.500 --> 00:13:52.690 how can you do more of it without experiencing a 223 00:13:53.110 --> 00:13:56.450 value conflict? If I put myself in the center of 224 00:13:57.049 --> 00:13:59.480 I become the selfish person I'm not supposed to be. 225 00:14:00.029 --> 00:14:02.179 How do I put myself in the center in a 226 00:14:02.259 --> 00:14:06.120 way that actually furthers the impact that I seek to have? 227 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:12.299 And imagine, I was just thinking, what would that conversation 228 00:14:12.379 --> 00:14:15.970 sound like? You go and you talk with whoever you 229 00:14:16.009 --> 00:14:21.230 need to negotiate the upgrade with. And you basically say, 230 00:14:21.250 --> 00:14:26.639 this is a very interesting moment for me. I really 231 00:14:26.700 --> 00:14:28.960 know that there is a lot of appreciation for the 232 00:14:29.019 --> 00:14:32.539 work I do. And I'm very clear on that. And 233 00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:38.779 that feels very good. Where I'm from, when people outperform, 234 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:43.139 one of the ways that people show their appreciation is 235 00:14:43.230 --> 00:14:47.070 by offering them a promotion. In the same way that 236 00:14:47.149 --> 00:14:49.730 we do not ask people if they want to drink 237 00:14:49.789 --> 00:14:53.169 something or eat something, we make sure that we put 238 00:14:53.210 --> 00:14:55.840 the food in front of them. because we do not 239 00:14:55.919 --> 00:15:00.120 want somebody to have to ask. It is very challenging 240 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:03.259 for me to have to ask. It is not the 241 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:06.299 cultural practice from which I come. And I know that 242 00:15:06.340 --> 00:15:10.419 you are very interested in the concept of diversity and inclusion. 243 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:14.519 This is a moment of talking about diversity as it 244 00:15:14.620 --> 00:15:19.470 comes to promotions, how different cultures do this. 245 00:15:20.370 --> 00:15:23.580 Yeah. You know, it's weird because I know we're talking 246 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:26.539 about work, but like what you're saying to me, it 247 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:29.539 applies so much to my personal life. I think this 248 00:15:29.620 --> 00:15:35.440 is like a huge point of tension between my partner 249 00:15:35.659 --> 00:15:40.519 and I, because even though he came to North America 250 00:15:40.980 --> 00:15:44.639 well after me, we were both born in Pakistan. Sometimes 251 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:48.370 I feel like he's more well adjusted to the individualistic 252 00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:53.159 lifestyle than I am. but we have similar conversations about 253 00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:56.590 how I feel like I do things without being asked. 254 00:15:56.889 --> 00:16:01.690 And then I feel like I'm not loved enough because 255 00:16:02.269 --> 00:16:06.620 it's not

reciprocated. And he often will be like, but 256 00:16:06.629 --> 00:16:10.100 you didn't ask me to do it. He's very good 257 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:13.419 about like, I'd like for you to acknowledge that I 258 00:16:13.460 --> 00:16:16.120 did this. I'd like for you to give credit where 259 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:19.320 I did this. And I don't ask for that. And I, 260 00:16:19.809 --> 00:16:21.710 You know, we have this back and forth where I'm like, 261 00:16:22.009 --> 00:16:25.399 but I don't ask for credit for things. I just 262 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:27.299 do them because I know you like them. 263 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:32.980 That is such a classic conversation that is often very 264 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:37.799 vested in culture because, you know, if it's expected from 265 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:41.769 you to do certain things, the last thing you look 266 00:16:41.850 --> 00:16:49.129 for is appreciation or recognition because it's expected. And he says, 267 00:16:49.710 --> 00:16:51.970 When I do certain things, I want to be acknowledged 268 00:16:52.029 --> 00:16:54.970 for it. And you say, neither do I ask, neither 269 00:16:55.029 --> 00:16:58.409 do I expect to be acknowledged. But I wish you 270 00:16:58.460 --> 00:17:01.480 would just do. And he says, I will do when 271 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:04.779 you ask, because how else am I supposed to know? Yes. 272 00:17:05.460 --> 00:17:09.569 Like these conversations, they're not just at home, but at work, 273 00:17:09.619 --> 00:17:13.450 it will be something like, you know, my teammate during 274 00:17:13.670 --> 00:17:16.890 daily stand-ups, she'll be like, I'm drafting an email today 275 00:17:16.950 --> 00:17:20.740 to send out to so-and-so. And I wouldn't ever come 276 00:17:20.809 --> 00:17:22.829 and say, that's what's taking up my time. I would 277 00:17:22.849 --> 00:17:25.009 just come and say, I've sent the email already. 278 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:45.940 Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quote. When 279 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:48.720 you call a business and nobody picks up, you probably 280 00:17:48.789 --> 00:17:51.210 move on to the next business who will. That's why 281 00:17:51.230 --> 00:17:55.349 today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q-U-O, 282 00:17:55.569 --> 00:17:58.430 the business phone system built so you never miss a call. 283 00:17:58.930 --> 00:18:02.700 All your calls, texts and voicemails live in one place 284 00:18:02.779 --> 00:18:05.680 so anyone on your team can pick up a conversation, 285 00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:10.160 see the full history and respond fast. Quo is trusted 286 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:13.519 by over 90,000 businesses who rely on it to stay 287 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:17.269 reachable and look professional every day. 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That's why Babbel is built 302 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:13.420 around real-life conversations, not random vocabulary lists or endless grammar drills. 303 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:16.640 This summer I had to travel to Brazil to give 304 00:19:16.660 --> 00:19:21.200 a talk and I wanted to refresh my vocabulary and 305 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:25.180 my fluency and my ease with the language. And I 306 00:19:25.299 --> 00:19:30.009 was reconnected with one of my favorite words in Portuguese, saudade, 307 00:19:30.269 --> 00:19:33.569 that describes the feeling of deep longing for something that's 308 00:19:33.650 --> 00:19:36.589 gone or maybe something that never was. A word you 309 00:19:36.630 --> 00:19:39.869 find in so many of the Bossa Nova songs. So 310 00:19:40.150 --> 00:19:43.329 Babbel was there to help me with that. Start learning 311 00:19:43.470 --> 00:19:46.859 a new language today with Babbel. Right now, listeners can 312 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:49.279 save up to 60% off at babbel.com. That's babbel, B-A-B-B-E-L.com 313 00:19:49.299 --> 00:19:51.599 for up to 60% off. Rules and restrictions may apply. 314 00:20:05.549 --> 00:20:09.910 Do you feel you would be comfortable identifying the riches 315 00:20:09.950 --> 00:20:13.730 of this conversation, the nuances of this conversation, exactly the 316 00:20:13.769 --> 00:20:15.690 way that you and I are having it right now? 317 00:20:16.289 --> 00:20:20.569 That is so an interesting difference here. It is totally 318 00:20:20.710 --> 00:20:24.049 accepted for you to talk about the hardships of the 319 00:20:24.210 --> 00:20:27.490 email that takes two days or the fact that you've 320 00:20:27.549 --> 00:20:30.750 really put time aside to do this. And it is 321 00:20:31.329 --> 00:20:37.339 so interesting how easily... People who grow up here sometimes, 322 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:39.400 because there are many people who are like you and 323 00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:43.529 they don't even have the cultural

camouflage to really explain it, 324 00:20:43.710 --> 00:20:47.490 but they experience their internal life like you. But many 325 00:20:47.569 --> 00:20:50.769 times it's true. People are encouraged to speak up, to 326 00:20:50.849 --> 00:20:53.980 say what they've done, to highlight the efforts that it takes. 327 00:20:54.420 --> 00:20:57.420 And it is a kind of a subtle invitation or 328 00:20:57.460 --> 00:21:01.839 not so subtle invitation for recognition. And on the side 329 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:05.900 of your humility, you say, I don't make a big fuss. 330 00:21:06.299 --> 00:21:10.660 I just come and say it's done. But internally, you 331 00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:14.920 also expect the recognition. You actually do. But you don't 332 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:16.980 want to have to ask for it. The same way 333 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:18.460 that you don't want to have to ask for the 334 00:21:18.500 --> 00:21:22.869 cup of tea. And if you made that conversation public, 335 00:21:24.049 --> 00:21:28.950 it would be a very interesting opening up of many... 336 00:21:29.660 --> 00:21:34.720 layers of communication that exist in your workplace and in 337 00:21:34.779 --> 00:21:39.380 your marriage shed a light onto this. This is so interesting. 338 00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:44.349 This is not me and you. These are two different cultures. 339 00:21:45.230 --> 00:21:49.990 But interestingly, in both cultures, there is an expectation of recognition. 340 00:21:50.690 --> 00:21:53.500 It's just that in one, you're allowed to make a 341 00:21:53.539 --> 00:21:57.529 big deal to show that you deserve it. And in 342 00:21:57.589 --> 00:22:03.569 the other, your actions should speak for themselves. And everybody 343 00:22:03.690 --> 00:22:09.089 learns to maintain harmony by giving the recognition without the 344 00:22:09.170 --> 00:22:12.670 other person having to ask for it. It's considered a 345 00:22:12.869 --> 00:22:15.970 form of attunement. You know that that's what you're supposed 346 00:22:16.029 --> 00:22:19.359 to do. You know that you're supposed to ask, shall 347 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:22.140 I carry your bags and not wait for the other 348 00:22:22.180 --> 00:22:23.660 person to say, can you help me? 349 00:22:24.670 --> 00:22:29.579 Oh my God, yes. This actually happened the week after 350 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:33.519 the wedding. My brother got mad at my husband because 351 00:22:33.900 --> 00:22:35.500 he didn't pick up my bags and he was letting 352 00:22:35.539 --> 00:22:37.880 me carry my suitcase in. And my brother was like, 353 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.900 are you seriously just going to let her do that? 354 00:22:41.099 --> 00:22:43.779 Like she's never going to ask for help. And it 355 00:22:43.819 --> 00:22:47.180 created so much tension because it's, you know, it's just 356 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:49.109 two different ways of looking at the world. 357 00:22:50.829 --> 00:22:54.240 But your husband knows the code, right? It's not like

358 00:22:54.279 --> 00:22:56.240 it's a foreign code to him, right? 359 00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:00.299 I don't think that it is that he was raised 360 00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:05.029 the same way. It's also partially a gender thing. 361 00:23:05.529 --> 00:23:07.549 You can leave the word partially out of it, but 362 00:23:07.609 --> 00:23:09.190 go ahead. 363 00:23:09.410 --> 00:23:12.609 It is a gender thing. I think in South Asia, 364 00:23:12.789 --> 00:23:17.799 there's a different expectation of how women behave in society 365 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:20.759 and how men behave in society. One of the things 366 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:23.619 I've learned through this whole marriage process is how much 367 00:23:23.819 --> 00:23:27.720 effort we in South Asia focus on making sure that 368 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:30.480 women know what to do, how to do it, how 369 00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:35.349 it affects everybody else, what the consequences of their actions are, 370 00:23:35.450 --> 00:23:39.829 even before they think it. Whereas men kind of haphazardly 371 00:23:40.210 --> 00:23:42.930 can go through life and make mistakes and it's okay. 372 00:23:44.349 --> 00:23:47.349 What is the child order of your husband? 373 00:23:48.410 --> 00:23:49.660 He's a middle child. 374 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:52.480 How did he respond to your brother? 375 00:23:52.509 --> 00:23:57.329 He's definitely on the quieter side. So he didn't say anything, 376 00:23:57.390 --> 00:24:00.349 but he was very upset at me that like, he 377 00:24:00.390 --> 00:24:04.390 felt like he was being blamed for something that he 378 00:24:04.430 --> 00:24:06.299 didn't have the intention to do. 379 00:24:08.420 --> 00:24:12.839 Do you think he minded to carry your luggage or 380 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:16.269 that he just, in his mind, it was, if you 381 00:24:16.309 --> 00:24:17.349 need help, you'll ask. 382 00:24:18.210 --> 00:24:22.460 I mean, Having had these conversations, I know it's the latter, 383 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:27.359 but my knee-jerk reaction is that he didn't care. Right. 384 00:24:27.980 --> 00:24:32.160 So this is where you will need to learn a 385 00:24:32.299 --> 00:24:37.930 little bit more to interpret his behavior from his vantage point. Otherwise, 386 00:24:38.369 --> 00:24:42.029 you're going to continuously confirm every time he doesn't help you, 387 00:24:42.210 --> 00:24:45.349 every time he doesn't thank you, every time he doesn't 388 00:24:45.410 --> 00:24:50.329 acknowledge you. it will continuously be interpreted to the same lens. 389 00:24:51.170 --> 00:24:55.890 And you're gonna end up feeling very unloved, which is 390 00:24:55.970 --> 00:24:59.259 part of why I'm imagining you began to say that 391 00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:01.460 you may not have married him had you known all 392 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:01.839 of this. 393 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.440 No, I already knew these things. I think what I 394 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:10.819 didn't know is leading up to the wedding, it was 395 00:25:11.329 --> 00:25:14.349 a lot of, I knew what is expected of me 396 00:25:14.859 --> 00:25:17.980 And what my parents expect and what our family expects 397 00:25:18.089 --> 00:25:21.210 and how to do that from a societal point of view. 398 00:25:21.630 --> 00:25:23.589 And he's very much like, well, I don't want to 399 00:25:23.630 --> 00:25:26.430 do this because I don't want this. And that's it, period. 400 00:25:26.990 --> 00:25:30.259 It ended up leading to a lot of conflicts between us. 401 00:25:31.180 --> 00:25:35.900 One of my solutions to this conflict and this constant 402 00:25:35.940 --> 00:25:38.799 stress we were both under was to tell him that 403 00:25:38.859 --> 00:25:41.730 he should go take a vacation for a week. I 404 00:25:41.809 --> 00:25:44.990 learned after the wedding that he started talking to someone 405 00:25:45.049 --> 00:25:51.650 else on that vacation and it wasn't anything, I guess 406 00:25:52.190 --> 00:25:55.519 maybe other people would call it like not cheating, but 407 00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:59.759 to me, it was a huge blow because at the 408 00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:01.480 end of the day, it was the same thing. How 409 00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:04.359 could you not have thought about how much this would 410 00:26:04.420 --> 00:26:08.339 hurt me? How did you not care? And, his response 411 00:26:08.380 --> 00:26:11.039 was that in that moment, he wasn't thinking about anyone 412 00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:15.700 else but himself. And I went through an even harder 413 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:19.730 time because it's always harder for the girl, especially in 414 00:26:19.789 --> 00:26:24.349 South Asian weddings. And I thought about, if I'm being honest, 415 00:26:24.390 --> 00:26:27.369 I thought about running away and kind of just, I 416 00:26:27.430 --> 00:26:29.750 wasn't able to do work that I enjoy. I wasn't 417 00:26:29.789 --> 00:26:33.950 able to just relax and enjoy that because I constantly 418 00:26:33.970 --> 00:26:37.400 felt guilty about having to do something in relation to 419 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:40.539 wedding prep. So I thought about running away and doing 420 00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:43.279 something for myself, but I didn't because all I could 421 00:26:43.299 --> 00:26:46.599 think about how disappointed he or my family or his 422 00:26:46.660 --> 00:26:47.359 family would be. 423 00:26:50.099 --> 00:26:53.859 And have you and him been able to work through 424 00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:56.460 some of what had happened between him and you? 425 00:26:57.309 --> 00:27:00.670 You know, the hardest part about all of this is 426 00:27:00.710 --> 00:27:03.410 I found out maybe a few days after we got 427 00:27:03.430 --> 00:27:06.559 married and we still had a solid week left with 428 00:27:06.619 --> 00:27:10.019 our family. So I had to suck it up and 429 00:27:10.099 --> 00:27:14.119 make sure we were a happy married couple. And when 430 00:27:14.180 -->

00:27:18.740 I came back, it was very hard for me to 431 00:27:19.180 --> 00:27:23.140 think about anything or feel anything because I had spent 432 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:27.480 so much time just numbing it. I am, you know, 433 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:29.900 very in tune with my emotions, but I can also, 434 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.039 it becomes really hard to reconnect with them if I've 435 00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:34.200 shut them off. 436 00:27:36.029 --> 00:27:38.789 Well, it's not that you shut them off only, it's 437 00:27:38.849 --> 00:27:43.329 that you put them aside because your emotions are not 438 00:27:43.450 --> 00:27:48.230 to be more important than the social convention and the 439 00:27:48.289 --> 00:27:52.299 maintaining of the social harmony and the relationships with all 440 00:27:52.339 --> 00:27:55.539 the families. 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As much as he has the opportunity 480 00:30:36.579 --> 00:30:40.960 through you, to learn to become much more attuned to 481 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.799 the needs and the feelings of the person next to him. 482 00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:46.880 And not just to say, this is what works for me. 483 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:50.250 Why don't you adapt? You know, you learn to be 484 00:30:50.289 --> 00:30:55.369 like me. No, if he chose you and he chose 485 00:30:55.430 --> 00:31:00.130 someone who is so adept at thinking about others, that 486 00:31:00.170 --> 00:31:03.630 you are adept at thinking about him, then the goal 487 00:31:03.690 --> 00:31:05.970 is not just for you to continue to think about 488 00:31:06.049 --> 00:31:11.109 him and to presume every need he may have ahead 489 00:31:11.140 --> 00:31:15.690 of himself, but also for him to become more sensitive 490 00:31:16.269 --> 00:31:21.250 and attuned and attentive to you. And for you to 491 00:31:21.609 --> 00:31:26.170 use the opportunity to say, I'm going to learn through 492 00:31:26.230 --> 00:31:29.819 him to be a little bit more outspoken, to be 493 00:31:29.859 --> 00:31:38.089 a little bit more vocal, because it ultimately will... serve 494 00:31:38.130 --> 00:31:40.150 me a little bit as well and not in the 495 00:31:40.250 --> 00:31:43.930 instrumental sense of serving but if i chose someone who's 496 00:31:43.970 --> 00:31:47.910 good at thinking about himself it's because sometimes i could 497 00:31:47.950 --> 00:31:49.910 learn a little bit of that it's like each of 498 00:31:49.990 --> 00:31:57.529 you chose someone whose proclivities match your vulnerabilities and the 499 00:31:57.609 --> 00:31:59.970 same

thing will apply at work but in a more 500 00:32:01.170 --> 00:32:05.869 broader sense you know you're going to use your knowledge 501 00:32:06.089 --> 00:32:10.130 of a different cultural system to describe that to the people. 502 00:32:11.029 --> 00:32:13.630 And that it applies not just to you because you 503 00:32:13.710 --> 00:32:16.799 are from Pakistan, but it applies to probably other people 504 00:32:16.859 --> 00:32:20.519 on the team who are quieter, who are waiting for 505 00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:23.640 others to notice them rather than to push themselves on 506 00:32:23.660 --> 00:32:27.750 the front stage. And that you will be a good 507 00:32:27.829 --> 00:32:31.890 interpreter of that dynamic. So it goes beyond you. And 508 00:32:31.950 --> 00:32:35.769 you can explain exactly that. You know, it's very interesting. 509 00:32:35.849 --> 00:32:40.730 This company works on one model. But I'd like for 510 00:32:40.769 --> 00:32:43.069 you to know there's another way to go about this 511 00:32:43.250 --> 00:32:46.819 that would actually make quite a lot of people here 512 00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:51.200 feel much more acknowledged, much more appreciated, and therefore much 513 00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:54.240 more engaged, and therefore probably even more producing. 514 00:32:56.660 --> 00:32:59.769 So I guess what I'm hearing from you is, you know, 515 00:32:59.869 --> 00:33:06.789 self-love translates to having a voice and practicing using it 516 00:33:07.710 --> 00:33:10.170 both at work and in my personal life. 517 00:33:10.410 --> 00:33:15.319 Yes, but you may use the word self-love. It's a 518 00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:19.019 certain form. I think that if you know that when 519 00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.440 you speak up, you're not just doing it for you only. 520 00:33:23.210 --> 00:33:26.670 you will have less of a concern that to be 521 00:33:26.819 --> 00:33:30.480 vocal is to be selfish and that you have to 522 00:33:30.539 --> 00:33:37.200 stay subdued, subservient and subjugated in your role as a 523 00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:40.400 woman and that you should not ask for too much 524 00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:43.589 and that you should wait for your turn and that 525 00:33:43.609 --> 00:33:46.730 you should think about how your needs affect everybody else 526 00:33:47.470 --> 00:33:50.769 and all of that code. If I just talk to 527 00:33:50.809 --> 00:33:53.410 you about self-love in the American sense of the word, 528 00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:57.759 you're going to experience a conflict in doing it because 529 00:33:58.140 --> 00:34:01.019 you will feel like you're doing everything against the thing 530 00:34:01.059 --> 00:34:03.960 that you were brought up to be. But the one 531 00:34:03.980 --> 00:34:07.519 thing they did say in your house is being educated, 532 00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:14.329 being learned, being very ambitious, being very successful is about impact. 533 00:34:14.869 --> 00:34:16.929 And as long as you don't just see this

as 534 00:34:17.030 --> 00:34:21.829 benefiting you, you will have a much easier time to 535 00:34:22.369 --> 00:34:27.110 experience what you call self-love. Because the love of the 536 00:34:27.219 --> 00:34:31.519 self benefits the community rather than just yourself. 537 00:34:33.699 --> 00:34:35.659 Yeah, I didn't see it that way. 538 00:34:36.300 --> 00:34:37.699 How does it land on you now? 539 00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:43.559 I mean, it's definitely harder, but I think this is 540 00:34:43.659 --> 00:34:49.880 the little trinket to remind myself, right? Because it's very 541 00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:52.139 easy for me to stand up for someone else, to 542 00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:53.920 ask for things I know that are going to be 543 00:34:53.960 --> 00:34:57.099 good for the rest of the project or are going 544 00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:01.449 to be good for the team. But if it's just 545 00:35:01.650 --> 00:35:06.250 solely about me, then I will keep waiting to be 546 00:35:06.449 --> 00:35:06.849 asked about it. 547 00:35:06.849 --> 00:35:09.150 Tell me something. Do you have people on your team 548 00:35:09.210 --> 00:35:11.030 who can do for you what you do for them? 549 00:35:11.909 --> 00:35:15.239 I'm trying to build those. I'm trying to give people 550 00:35:15.260 --> 00:35:17.059 the opportunity to do that. 551 00:35:18.130 --> 00:35:22.179 You know, when they used to measure social competence of 552 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.960 children in school, they often looked at the kids who 553 00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:29.400 put their hands up as the children who are more 554 00:35:29.460 --> 00:35:33.400 socially competent and more assertive and more confident and more engaged, 555 00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:37.619 et cetera, et cetera. And they then interpreted the kids 556 00:35:37.670 --> 00:35:40.469 who didn't put their hands up as having less of 557 00:35:40.670 --> 00:35:45.409 all those social competencies, rather than looking at the fact 558 00:35:45.449 --> 00:35:48.730 that these children may have come from different cultures and 559 00:35:48.789 --> 00:35:56.340 different backgrounds in which putting your hands up was considered boastful, attention-seeking, 560 00:35:57.099 --> 00:35:57.840 and selfish. 561 00:35:58.579 --> 00:36:00.719 You're describing childhood right here. 562 00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:05.059 So you don't have a problem. It becomes maybe sometimes 563 00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:08.079 problematic in this environment, but that doesn't mean you have 564 00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:12.179 a problem and that you lack self-love. You are raised 565 00:36:12.219 --> 00:36:15.309 with a different code and it becomes interpreted as a 566 00:36:15.349 --> 00:36:18.440 lack of self-love. You have a lot to teach the 567 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.079 people that you work with about other ways of being 568 00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:24.960 in the world and other ways of being in relationship 569 00:36:25.530 --> 00:36:29.110 to other people. Now, that said, you're going to choose 570 00:36:29.590 --> 00:36:32.309 your mentors. You're going to choose your allies. You're going 571 00:36:32.349 --> 00:36:35.289 to choose the people who sometimes can go to bat 572 00:36:35.329 --> 00:36:37.150 for you when you don't feel that you are the 573 00:36:37.210 --> 00:36:41.400 best representative. There are loads of people who need other 574 00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:46.389 people sometimes to negotiate on their behalf. And you are right. 575 00:36:46.449 --> 00:36:49.650 These are the very same people who are often wonderful 576 00:36:49.710 --> 00:36:53.340 at negotiating for others. So it's not that you don't 577 00:36:53.380 --> 00:36:55.820 know how to do it. It's that you have learned 578 00:36:55.980 --> 00:36:58.519 not to do it on your behalf, but you have 579 00:36:58.579 --> 00:37:02.000 learned this. Can you unlearn it? 580 00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:02.719 Yes. 581 00:37:02.900 --> 00:37:04.820 To a certain degree, you can learn to do it 582 00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.460 differently if you so choose to. How does all this 583 00:37:09.219 --> 00:37:10.139 resonate for you? 584 00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:16.019 Yeah, it's, I think it's just kind of looking at 585 00:37:16.219 --> 00:37:20.769 the box from a different angle. It's a way of 586 00:37:20.849 --> 00:37:23.349 looking at things that I hadn't looked at before. So 587 00:37:23.389 --> 00:37:24.250 thank you for that. 588 00:37:25.969 --> 00:37:29.889 And how are you feeling right now? That's what you think. 589 00:37:30.300 --> 00:37:32.920 Because I don't see you, but I hear your tears. 590 00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:35.280 And I hear your sadness. 591 00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:44.110 At work, we often talk about creating a culture... not 592 00:37:44.210 --> 00:37:48.550 where people fit in, but where people belong. It's two 593 00:37:48.570 --> 00:37:54.179 different things. I think like that point of view, I 594 00:37:54.219 --> 00:37:57.940 feel like I've been trying very hard always to fit 595 00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:03.420 in and maybe not taking the time to share with 596 00:38:03.500 --> 00:38:06.900 people how they could make me feel like I belong. 597 00:38:08.179 --> 00:38:13.639 Beautiful, beautiful. In this conversation, you try to fit in 598 00:38:15.130 --> 00:38:15.889 Or you belong? 599 00:38:17.510 --> 00:38:21.389 I guess in this conversation, I felt like I just am. 600 00:38:21.849 --> 00:38:27.989 And I tried to just be. So I guess I 601 00:38:28.030 --> 00:38:29.190 felt like I belonged. 602 00:38:30.590 --> 00:38:32.920 Because you honored the many parts of you. 603 00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:38.340 Yeah. And I guess you heard the many parts of me. 604 00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:39.619 So thank you for that. 605 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:46.559 So I invite you, because we only have one very 606 00:38:46.619 --> 00:38:49.760 brief conversation, but if you can take some of that 607 00:38:49.860 --> 00:38:55.420 with you to work and home, where you hold on 608 00:38:55.500 --> 00:39:00.639 to the many parts, not rigidly, but openly, and that 609 00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:05.630 beautiful distinction you just made, instead of putting all the 610 00:39:05.710 --> 00:39:09.250 effort in fitting in, fitting in as a wife, fitting 611 00:39:09.349 --> 00:39:15.260 in as an employee, that you Cultivate the experience of belonging. 612 00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:19.309 But you are right. It is a reciprocal experience. It's 613 00:39:19.349 --> 00:39:23.730 not something you do alone. It's something, the culture, the 614 00:39:23.809 --> 00:39:27.050 environment of the place where you are, the relationship you 615 00:39:27.110 --> 00:39:31.860 are in, or the team you are on. they are 616 00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:36.760 direct co-creators of the feeling of belonging. 617 00:39:37.019 --> 00:39:39.119 Yeah yes. 618 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:50.710 This was an esther calling a one-time intervention phone call 619 00:39:50.989 --> 00:39:54.510 recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If 620 00:39:54.530 --> 00:39:56.800 you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, 621 00:39:56.820 --> 00:39:59.719 it could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call. 622 00:40:00.340 --> 00:40:02.719 Send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. 623 00:40:03.380 --> 00:40:09.670 Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We 624 00:40:09.730 --> 00:40:13.250 Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're 625 00:40:13.269 --> 00:40:16.469 part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. In partnership with 626 00:40:16.510 --> 00:40:19.909 New York Magazine and The Cut, Our production staff includes 627 00:40:19.989 --> 00:40:25.190 Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Huwete Katana, Sabrina Farhi, 628 00:40:25.670 --> 00:40:30.519 Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatt. Original music and 629 00:40:30.539 --> 00:40:34.539 additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of 630 00:40:34.579 --> 00:40:37.699 Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. 631 00:40:38.699 --> 00:40:41.980 We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, 632 00:40:42.380 --> 00:40:44.099 Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.