บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Performance Dietitian Jessica Spendlove on Burnout and Recovery

pushes and the pulls. 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:06.079 But ultimately it came with a very loud, you know, halted stop because I became really unwell, burnt out. 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:07.759 Look, part of it was COVID. 00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:15.120 But COVID was the catalyst of the last 10 years of my professional career, but probably my entire life. 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:20.160 Because what being a nine and 10-year-old, leaving the house at 4:30 a.m. 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:27.279 and getting home at 8:30, what that taught me or the narrative it told me at the time was I was the exception to the rule. 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:29.040 My capacity was greater. 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:33.040 And I do see this a lot with high performers across industries. 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:39.600 And, you know, the reality is it's not a matter of if but when things will come crashing down. 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:47.839 And so despite knowing this and helping elite athletes and high performers in different industries, there I was talking the talk, but not walking it. 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:49.199 And now I walked the talk. 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:54.399 But uh it took a crisis, it took a personal health crisis for me to wake up. 00:05:55.519 --> 00:06:04.240 I mean, I suppose the the message there is no one is immune, no matter how capable, extraordinary, committed, dedicated. 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:06.079 Do you think that's nature or nurture? 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:08.560 Do you think that's a fundamental capacity? 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:12.319 Like some people have that capacity to go, I've reached my limit. 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:17.199 I'm going to turn down the dial and the volume because it's no longer sustainable. 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:23.680 Other people, such as yourself, have to wait till you hit a wall or a health crisis. 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:30.000 Do you think that's something that's enculturated, that you're surrounded by a culture that facilitates or fosters that? 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:34.720 Or do you think you just grew up believing that you could push yourself to that level? 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:38.800 I think, you know, I don't think I'm the exception at all. 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:44.879 And, you know, there's a lot of, you know, I I know you've had people on here even sharing their own kind of similar experiences. 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:46.160 So I think it's both. 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:48.879 I think you have to be wired a certain way. 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:53.040 And you're probably also in environments where you're thriving. 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:56.959 You know, it's for me that was the dream and the goal. 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.480 And I was absolutely not going to say no to any opportunity. 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:07.439 And, you know, the better you are at your job, you either get loaded with more things or you get better opportunities. 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:12.399 And in my instance, it came in the form of more teams, you know,

another team. 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:13.920 Sure, I could fit that in. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:15.920 Like I remember my calendar at one point. 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:18.959 I had a mentor say, you have literally no white space. 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:23.439 And for me, it was like it's all color-coded, and I'm here and I'm there. 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:29.759 And I can only imagine like the adrenaline and the cortisol and the way that I'd been operating. 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.120 And so I do think it's a combination of both. 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:37.839 And I do think though, times, you know, that the tide is turning. 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:42.000 I do think, you know, I'm like a middle to older millennial. 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:51.279 And I do think what I'm seeing and hearing, thank goodness, is that people maybe five, 10, 15 years younger than me are starting to kind of wake up. 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:53.839 And hopefully they won't get themselves in this position. 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:57.759 But my kind of generation was definitely like work hard. 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:00.399 You know, the harder you work, the more you get saved for it. 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:02.160 Very, very similar. 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:10.879 And my generation is probably a little older than yours, but I'm actually listening to, for example, my children's generation, and they're very much reflecting on life work balance. 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:21.680 However, there's this discussion which I think is important to reflect on, which is, you know, you have to climb the mountain, you have to, it's very hard to get to the top because there are a lot of people trying to do it, whatever that industry is. 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:26.000 So there's no illusion that you, you know, there's no shortcut, I think we would agree. 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:40.399 The question is, are you going to get there happier with with more energy reserves and with capacity for sustainability by managing that time, energy, and space better, which is what you're talking about. 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:52.879 And I think it is a constant struggle for people that want to be exceptional in whatever they do, whether it's law or medicine or sport or whatever capacity. 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:57.440 I think there is a discussion around that, and there's a lot more of a discussion around that. 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:07.919 But it is still very the jury's out a little bit because people still have to work really, really hard to thrive and survive in this world right now. 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:08.559 Yeah. 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:12.080 And and the way, you know, if I had my time again, would I change it? 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.159 I probably wouldn't change all that much. 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:16.559 I just wish I would have woken up sooner. 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:21.120 And I think the thing with that is you can do it for a season. 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:27.200 But the thing is, a lot of people do it

for a season, and then that becomes just the way they operate. 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:28.399 And that was the mistake. 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:36.720 And so I do believe, yes, to maybe do exceptional things, you maybe do need to do some things that other people aren't willing to do. 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:39.600 But how long are you willing to do that for? 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:42.480 And just being more informed and aware of that. 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:52.320 And there's definitely strategies I could have put in place around recovery because you know I was eating well and I was sleeping well and I was exercising. 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:58.240 So it's not that that all went out the window, but the thing missing for me was the recovery, the downregulation. 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:04.559 And so I do believe for a season of time, yeah, but just it can't, that's just how you operate. 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:06.159 I think that's a really good point. 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:15.360 So, really, what you're saying is at any journey that you take, you can still be exceptional, but you have to know that the time out is just as valuable as the time on. 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:21.200 And that is a really difficult thing for people to apply to their lives. 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:34.080 Because, of course, you know, with whatever that work slate is, or that that race, or that, as you say, the football or whatever it is that you're dealing with, you know, the nobody has a lot of tolerance for that stuff. 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:45.279 They're like, I don't care if you're sick, run down, whatever your problem is, deal and get back on the field or get back in the into training, or, you know, get back into the office or whatever it is. 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:54.000 Even with the work from home thing, which is another discussion, it is a really interesting area that I think we need to somehow. 00:10:54.159 --> 00:11:02.720 The question is, do we need to turn it hard left in terms of dialing it down to use the, I suppose, the bike reference? 00:11:02.879 --> 00:11:06.879 I'm thinking, you know, when you're on the bike and you're doing if I'm doing the gears down. 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:12.799 Yeah, turn the gears down, but then you also risk you don't want to go downhill, literally. 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:15.919 So are you finding the people that you're working with? 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:17.759 I mean, how has it applied to you? 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:21.919 How have you done, how have you found this recalibration, if you have? 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:23.440 I do find the recovery. 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:28.799 So I look at the elite athletes and the special operations, which is the other kind of high pressure environment I work in. 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:37.600 And look, it's different because it's very institutionalized, you know, they've got different specialties, but the thing that they actually do very well is recovery. 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:40.639 It is literally as important as the as the training. 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:49.759 And so when we come over to the corporate industry or just the general population, that is the piece that I'd say 10%, you know, have nailed. 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:58.399 And I don't just make that number up when I survey groups that I speak to, which often tend to be like leaders or senior leaders, that is the number that comes out. 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:05.759 10% really understand how important it is in terms of it's a performance accelerator, even less of being strategic about it. 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:08.559 And I think a part of that is it feels too hard. 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:14.399 It feels like it's a reward for hard work, or they just don't understand how they're fitting it into their day. 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:20.399 So I think a big piece of it is what actually is recovery, which is something I'm talking a lot about. 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:25.919 And for me, in the simplest form, it's intentional stimulant free time. 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:46.559 And where we actually get the most return on investment or biggest bang for buck is the daily, and I call them brain breaks, but the daily micro breaks that we can take a couple of times each day, where we can step away from screen, step away from stimulation, and actually just reset a little bit. 00:12:46.720 --> 00:13:07.360 And so whether that's a a walk around the block without your phone, without a podcast, you know, I love walking and podcasting, but maybe do that in the morning, but then across the day when you actually need to reduce your stress response, which what that means is bring your heart rate down, bring your stress hormones down, reset a little bit, maybe go for a 10-minute walk around the block without it. 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:16.080 Or if you don't have 10 minutes or you're telling yourself that, take two minutes and make a herbal tea and do some breath work for a minute or two. 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:21.919 It can be as small as that, but consistently and intentionally a few times each day. 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:28.799 And the powerful thing about that is it downregulates us, but it is a moment of recovery. 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:31.759 And then I have people say, yes, but then I have all of the thoughts. 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:33.519 And I'm like, well, two things. 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:39.759 One, great, because if you're not having the thoughts then, you're having them when you get into bed or at 2 a.m. 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:41.039 when you're waking up. 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:41.360 Yeah. 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:46.399 Or two, great, that's an invitation to practice to be a little bit more mindful. 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:59.759 You know, if you need to listen to something, pop something in and listen to like a five-minute meditation or a breath work and just have these micro moments, these brain breaks as a starting point on your recovery journey as such. 00:14:00.000 -->

00:14:10.720 And then in the in the book, I kind of talk about building your recovery rhythm, which is really looking at what do you do daily, weekly, quarterly, and yearly to get ahead. 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:16.240 Because what most people are doing, and I used to do, we take the recovery when we're burnt out. 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:18.399 You know, we're taking the burnout holiday. 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:27.440 What I'm inviting people to do is to take the recovery before you need it, because that actually expands your capacity and you get through more. 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.240 You know, it's really working smarter, not harder, basically. 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:30.960 Correct. 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:44.080 And I mean, I think the other thing is that I think a lot of people are up against a culture that's still very much, particularly in the corporate sector, from people that I've interviewed and people that I've met, there's a very strong expectation still. 00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:53.840 I mean, really that culture of slog it out as long as you can, be available all the time, be on tap, don't, don't sort of disconnect it. 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:58.879 We know this is a discussion and a lot of people are trying to actually work on this, but it's still prevalent. 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:15.519 You know, if I look at some of the young, you know, 20s, 30-year-olds driving through, you know, trying to get through the corporate ladder and build their careers, they're still expected to be there nonstop, to be on demand to sustain the stress and the expectation. 00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:17.840 So there is a cultural issue too. 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:19.759 And whether that changes, I'm not sure. 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:21.759 It seems to be changing somewhat. 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:24.080 Is that your your observation? 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:25.600 It is, it's slow. 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:28.799 You know, this is an in an ingrained problem. 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:33.600 And there is a lot of talking the talk, but not walking the talk. 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:42.080 And if you're really lucky to work in a workplace where your manager or your leader embodies this, well, like amazing. 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:46.240 My hope is that more leaders start to walk the talk. 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:55.360 And there's white papers and reports now showing this that that leaders' well-being is is the number one driver of organizational well-being and performance. 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:58.960 And so, you know, it's going to take time. 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:04.799 I'm hearing more of it, I'm seeing more of it, but it's definitely not the way that we're operating. 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:08.639 I do think five or 10 years' time, it will be a lot better. 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:10.240 My hope is that it'll be a lot better. 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:15.200 Maybe it's just the people reaching out and engaging me, and that gives me that sense. 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:20.639 But

I guess the invitation is there to people, where possible, what boundary can you draw? 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:25.679 Or what can you do within your day to start to create this? 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:28.559 I wish it wasn't being led by the individual. 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:31.519 I wish it was being led by the top-down. 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:36.639 I wish it was being created from an environment perspective, because environment is everything. 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:40.080 When you've got the environment that can support the behavior. 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:55.840 But in the meantime, if if we can at least try and upskill in ways that fit people's life, that feels practical and relatable and enjoyable, then that can hopefully just make shifts in individuals' lives until the tide turns a bit more. 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:57.360 I think that's a good point. 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:08.559 And you've worked with a lot of Olympians and you've worked with special forces and people who are really, you know, the expectation, like I'll sometimes say I've got a friend of mine who's a hard-working, very hard-working lawyer. 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:10.400 And I'm like, well, you're not a heart surgeon. 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:10.720 Okay. 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:12.799 Like you need to keep perspective. 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:14.319 Just, you know, take a breath. 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:18.480 And they're like, yeah, but you know, this particular family, it's a custody battle. 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:35.680 And I understand there's like major pressure to deliver on those very demanding court appearances and prep and all, like, I understand there is so much pressure in the reality of expectation, but by the industry that they're in, for example. 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:45.359 How have you found what have you learned watching some of these, for example, elite forces who, you know, it could it can be a bit of a life and death responsibility? 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:48.880 Yeah, I think, you know, you just raised a really important point. 00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:50.319 I used to have that narrative. 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:52.640 Being available makes me better at my job. 00:17:52.720 --> 00:18:01.599 And I said that was why I got, why I got the team and why I got the next team and the next one and and and all of the high-profile clients, you know, that was the narrative. 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:04.000 But that was just because I allowed that. 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:14.480 And when I then started to kind of recalibrate on that, I think boundaries are an interesting one if we're talking, you know, accessibility and availability, because we create the conditions. 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:24.160 And when you communicate to your clients that whatever those conditions are, then then that is also the expectation. 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:25.759 And I do get this. 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:32.000 I I ran a luncheon with some senior women in in leadership in in a particular industry the

other week. 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:34.799 And some are more office and some are more forward-facing. 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:38.400 And this was a discussion, the client-facing ones. 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:52.079 And I always say, like it's it, you know your life better than than what I do, but it's an invitation for you to think where can I start to create a boundary just to put some four walls around it? 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:57.039 You know, if you're currently taking calls 24-7, can you put a cutoff of 10 p.m.? 00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:59.200 You know, and then can you edge it to 8 p.m.? 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:02.559 I don't know what's going to be practical, but you've got to think about yourself. 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:06.480 And as you've said, you know, you have an important role. 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:10.880 A lot of people have important roles, but but you're not a brain surgeon or a heart surgeon. 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:13.920 So where can you just start to create a little bit of a boundary? 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:20.000 Like for me, I took my emails off my phone for a really long time because I just couldn't break that cycle of checking them. 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:24.000 And now I'm in the middle of the media around the book and I've I've added it back on. 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:31.279 But just having that separation for quite a long time has reduced, you know, my habits around that a little bit. 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:34.640 So yeah, I think the invitation is where can you draw a boundary? 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:37.279 Well, how scary was that taking your emails off? 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:40.480 It's so funny when I listen to you, I just think, how would I go? 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:47.599 I mean, because in some ways, the emails on my phone facilitate my freedom too, because it allows me to be wherever I need to be. 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:53.519 And then if an email comes in, so that takes a lot of in a way courage, which is quite surreal when we think about it. 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:56.559 Because when I was, you know, younger, there were no emails. 00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:58.160 I mean, there was no phone. 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:00.160 And it's so interesting. 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:11.519 Hence, I suppose a lot of these shows and a lot of the next generation are craving the 80s and that whole era where you just went out and you didn't have to think and you left work and you didn't have to think. 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:19.759 It was a, you know, it's very interesting to me that it's something we just take for granted and we've become so codependent on it. 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:22.400 And I think it takes a lot of courage. 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:23.920 Did you find that challenging? 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:26.079 Or once you'd done it, you felt better? 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:27.680 No, it was it was challenging. 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:32.480 And I don't want you to think my social media habits are, you know, I'm some some angel, you know, Instagram. 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.839 I would love to delete Instagram, but I, you know, for the stories. 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.319 But I just found for me it created a boundary. 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:44.240 And and look, there were times where I was still checking my email kind of on my phone, yeah, and I was having to log in. 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:51.519 But that just that extra step was at least a circuit breaker for the for when I was doing it out of habit rather than necessity. 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:53.119 I I get that. 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:56.400 Yeah, it's quite an interesting space. 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.319 But it also, I mean, as I say, there's always the pluses and the minus. 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:07.519 Obviously, we want to be able to excel, to thrive, and to be there for our clients or for our people. 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:12.880 And that is really important, but at the same time trying to find space. 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:17.359 I mean, you're a young mum, as you were saying, and or I was reading about that. 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:21.599 And I'm also a mother of three, and they're now older. 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:28.400 But I value the fact that I made the decision to find that balance because that time goes. 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.359 Like you don't realize you miss that. 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:47.599 You're either there at the school concert or whatever it is, which takes a deep breath to say, Well, I'm gonna have to leave work earlier, I'm gonna have to be adapt to that interview or whatever it is that is your space, because it is a window of time that is very precious. 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:55.680 And it would be a shame to not have that because you have a work meeting, which, to be honest, five or ten years later doesn't matter. 00:21:56.480 --> 00:22:03.440 So that's the other thing is there's there's an element of Self-importance that comes with all of this approach too. 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:20.960 You know, the approach of, well, if I'm not at the meeting and if I miss the meeting or if I it's not in the scheme of life, and it's something retrospectively that I reflect on and I try and guide people who are younger than me to say, listen, what feels like the biggest thing in the world really isn't as big as you think. 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:31.759 Or that work relationship, if they don't understand that you have another requirement, be it your husband or your child, then that relationship is somewhat problematic. 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:37.119 So are you seeing there be a little more accommodation and are you finding that for yourself? 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:39.359 Some workplaces, yes. 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.319 I feel again, we're at this inflection point. 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:49.119 There's some workplaces that are really understanding and flexible and yeah, feeling like they're accommodating. 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:54.000 And then I'm also seeing and hearing a lot of, you know,

very traditional workplaces. 00:22:54.160 --> 00:23:00.559 So it's and understandably that is a huge factor for people for recruiting and wanting to look around. 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:13.680 And, you know, for me, I think not that I would wish severe burnout and health issues on anyone, but that fast-tracked me looking at the next evolution of my career before I had a baby. 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:18.160 You know, to be honest, if we'd have met five years ago and you said, What are two things you'll never do? 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:20.720 I probably would have said, I'll never write a book and I'll never have a baby. 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:21.680 Like it just wasn't. 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:22.000 Yeah. 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:22.319 Yeah. 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:25.279 And it's now I'm just so grateful for both. 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:25.680 Yeah. 00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:35.359 But I do, for me right now, the way I work, I guess, largely working for myself and speaking to groups or coaching or working with organizations. 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:38.160 It's a little bit dependent on, you know, where I am. 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:41.839 And sometimes there's travel for off-sites or speaking gigs, etc. 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:48.559 But for me, I constantly check in, I ask myself a question will I look back and think I've worked too much? 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:52.559 And, you know, I worked, I didn't really have much maternity leave. 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:59.759 It just was the way it happened with a few really amazing opportunities, of course, you know, very soon after. 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:02.160 And I think you don't know what you don't know. 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:03.920 So I I said yes. 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:10.240 But for me, you know, I got to work at home and for four or five months she was just in a little bouncer and stuff anyway. 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:14.720 But you know, I was working and she was here and her nan or whoever was here. 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:17.519 And and so I feel like I I got the best of both worlds. 00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:19.839 But yeah, that is it's a hybrid approach. 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:25.359 And one I think, particularly as a woman, the questions are somewhat different, if I'm totally honest. 00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:32.079 You just cannot ignore the fact that as a woman, those choices and those questions are different to a male. 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:38.799 It just is, and it doesn't matter how you cut it, it is just the way the world is, and it's a blessing because we get to do both. 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:43.519 But challenge the challenge for women is to excel in their area of expertise. 00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:49.039 While if they want family, how they navigate that, how they look after themselves in the process. 00:24:49.119 --> 00:25:02.240 And I think that conversation is happening a lot, and thank goodness, because the cost is often to the mum or the wife or the working woman who's at the leadership, the

top of her game, trying to do it all. 00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:04.559 And I always say you can do it all, but not all at once. 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:05.680 It's quite challenging. 00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:09.680 You have to find that, which it sounds like you're finding that sweet spot. 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:13.440 And that's part of what you do is you go in and facilitate. 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:20.559 But it is a different, I think it is a just slightly different conversation for women in leadership versus definitely. 00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:25.359 And we're seeing it, you know, there's a there's a lot of gaps out there, but there is a well-being gap. 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:37.759 You know, we're seeing women at the most pivotal point of their career, they're also potentially the sandwich generation, they're carrying the mental load, there's all the hormonal shifts, which all of these things are now getting airtime, yeah. 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:45.599 Which thank goodness, you know, the the load of all of the thousands of WhatsApp groups and the coordinate, like there's so much happening at that point in time. 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:48.559 And 100%, I think, women in the corporate world. 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:56.880 And, you know, my hope is to bring, again, similarly, like practical strategies that at least can help the individual in the moment. 00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:26.480 And look, my goal, and there's a few people I think doing really great work in this space, you know, the the ideal is then to work with the team or the organization to then again create the policy or the environment or the structure that then also supports the workers and particularly the women in leadership to be able to have the flexibility to still excel and be exceptional at their career, but also recognize all of these other factors going on. 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:30.799 And again, I'm seeing the tide slowly turning, but we're at the start. 00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:33.920 Yeah, I think inflection point is a very good description. 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:42.000 So your book for the long run is available through bookstores and on your Instagram link, I'm assuming. 00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:51.200 And hopefully it will give people an insight into some of the tips that you've applied to your own life, but hopefully they can apply to theirs. 00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:54.319 And I thank you so much for joining us on the What I've Learned podcast. 00:26:54.480 --> 00:27:02.559 It's been really interesting, and I'm sure our listeners will enjoy hearing your views and tapping your wisdom. 00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:04.000 Thank you for having me, Um. 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:05.599 It's been a great conversation. 00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:06.720 I've really enjoyed it. 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:08.240 Thanks so much. 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:13.119 Well, thank you for joining us on the What I've Learned podcast. 00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:23.759 I hope you enjoyed that interview because we are so privileged to have a wonderful platform where guests come on and share lessons learned, rivers crossed, mountains climbed. 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:30.240 We love our shared humanity, and we are so grateful to have such a beautiful community. 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:37.039 So remember to stay curious, kind, and connected, and we'll see you next time at the What Up Clint Podcast.