บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Episode 157 - Corruption

flash trials, and um, these guys were um they're lawyers from uh you know, long time ago uh alumni of Loyola, and they send their congratulations to you and your victory. 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:45.199 Um, but they were curious how they could make sure you don't win next year. 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:49.599 Um and I said, Yeah, we we we we actually accept sponsorships of our of our competition. 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:51.520 So it's sort of a similar kind of vibe, you know? 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:52.639 I like that. 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:55.120 Got a little get a bidding more going on. 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:59.199 Okay, so uh this is a travesty, and we're not gonna stand for it. 00:03:59.280 --> 00:03:59.919 So, what should we do? 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:01.280 I've given this a lot of thought. 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:03.360 I think we have three simple options. 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:05.680 Holy crap, there's the fingers right there, folks. 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:06.639 Whoa, whoa. 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:07.520 We should go to video. 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:08.400 This is great. 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:10.080 Simple option number one. 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:11.680 We can do a GoFundMe. 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.759 Tell people to stop donating to their favorite charities and start donating to us. 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:16.480 That's great. 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:22.319 We probably would need to promise that every dollar we got from that would you know go to FeedSpot, they would be deserving, of course. 00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:24.399 We want to make sure that all of the dollars get there, right? 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:30.959 We can promise, we can promise, absolutely, that some of the money will go toward that eventually. 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:35.199 Okay, okay, all right. 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:37.040 Uh uh second finger. 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:38.160 Let's go to the second finger. 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:39.600 What's our what's our second option? 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:41.120 Simple option number two. 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:45.439 If we get Adam and Jared to start ranking legal podcasts, I I can see it right now. 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:51.279 Adam's gonna tell everyone that every podcast is equal, and Jared will tell everyone to go ep themselves. 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:54.480 Okay, that's a strong one. 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.199 That's a definitely a strong option uh as well. 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:00.160 Um, just out of curiosity, though, what what's the third? 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:03.920 Which brings me to the third and final simple option Walk Up Melodia. 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:13.279 Spencer, just imagine we thank Walk Up for supporting this podcast and our trial Epicus Community and our new subscription-based feed spot ranking. 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:18.399 It would be hilarious to do that and also just be totally transparent about it, too. 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:22.079 Two steps forward and two steps back. 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:24.319 Um, yeah, uh sure. 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:30.720 Let me run that up the flagpole and um and and and uh we'll we'll we'll figure out if that's a possibility. 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:34.079 Those were three options, each simple. 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:36.800 Um I don't know if they're gonna work though. 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:37.839 I don't know if they're gonna work. 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:39.680 You don't know which one's gonna work? 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:43.279 Um yeah, yeah, yes, that's fair to say. 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:48.959 I mean, if you just want to sponsor it personally, we could we could try for the first time ever, fourth finger. 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:52.000 We we've tried, right? 00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:57.839 I said we should take this guy out to dinner or something, you know, and uh you know, we've yeah, and that that never materialized. 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:03.040 So now that it's so quid pro quo, it's so kind of clear. 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:04.399 Yeah, yeah. 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:07.120 Man, thanks, thanks, Justin. 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:11.839 And I know you did that not for the content of it, but on the principle, and I appreciate that. 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:12.800 Yeah, that's right. 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:14.959 Well, if you ask me, those rankings are broken. 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:16.480 But you know what else, Justin? 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:18.160 Uh what else, Spencer? 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:20.959 I think we should break something up straight up in the training. 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:23.680 I gotta get those keeping it. 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:25.120 Keep it in, keep it in, Sam. 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:30.000 Uh well, Justin, that's not the only thing broken around here. 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:30.480 You know what? 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:33.360 It's time for the break. 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:41.759 We start in Texas with the best in Texas. 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:48.800 I'd love to tease my Texas friends about this competition because it's a trial competition with no witnesses, no closing argument, and they act like it's a Super Bowl. 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:51.519 But I have to admit, it's actually a very impressive competition. 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:55.120 One of the only events with Voidire, VorDire! I was gonna say Vor Dire. 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:55.360 Come on. 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:56.000 Vor Dire. 00:06:56.319 --> 00:07:00.879 And every round has a real judge presiding and two at a two abono members as evaluators. 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:02.319 So we will go to the results. 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:09.279 The runner-up was Texas Southern, continuing their excellent start to the year, and the winner for the second year in a row, Texas. 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:11.680 The best in Texas, Texas. 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:13.439 Congratulations, folks. 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.839 And I'm looking forward to having uh barbecue with uh Mike Golden on Wednesday, Justin. 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:18.319 So there. 00:07:18.560

--> 00:07:20.480 Oh, it's nice that he's available for you now. 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:23.680 In the past, he will have been. 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:27.199 All right, we head to Philadelphia for Drexel's Battle of the Experts. 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:28.399 Let's get to the semifinalists. 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:34.720 They were Loyola and Stetson, finalist South Carolina winner for the seventh year in a row. 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:35.279 Is that correct? 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:36.720 Seventh year in a row? 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:38.879 Holy crap, UCLA. 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:39.360 Wow. 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:40.319 Uh well, thank you. 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:47.439 Uh, on top of the students who won individual awards, we want to shout out three students that my team saw and thought were really, really excellent. 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:49.279 South Carolina's Chase Robertson. 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:50.480 He closed in the final round. 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:52.399 Cannot believe this is his first competition. 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:54.240 Baylor's Daniela Castillo. 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:57.120 We saw her in round one, her closing was outstanding. 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:02.240 And Hofstra's Tyler Cavalier, who many are calling the New York Peter Jones. 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:04.480 All right, let's uh let's talk future. 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:09.040 Let's move from past to go to future and uh let's let's preview the all-star bracket challenge. 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:15.600 Now, uh, Justin, why did you call this the largest fall competition in your very helpful preview at the beginning of this podcast? 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:16.800 Well, thank you, Spencer. 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:21.040 Uh I I think there's two competitions that have uh the largest fields. 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:27.519 One is Premier, it has, I think, about 80 teams this year, but they're all competing at different sites and they don't then compete against each other. 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:29.439 They're not they're not gonna be one premier champion. 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:31.040 Each site has its own champion, and that's it. 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:32.720 One and done because it's for new students. 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:36.559 Uh, but the largest competition that actually has a single winner is All-Star. 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:39.600 Uh, we have 64 teams competing this year across the country. 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:40.799 Wow, I love that. 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:43.600 Uh, and that takes a lot of doing and a lot of pitching in. 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:44.960 Who's all helping host this thing? 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:49.759 Ten different schools are helping to host Cumberland, Lewis and Clark. 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:51.600 That's I know Ken and Lewis and Clark is one. 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:52.320 That's one, yeah. 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:53.919 That's for that's for you, Phil. 00:08:54.000 --> 00:09:03.279 Uh Loyal of Chicago, Mercer, Syracuse, Texas Southern, UMKC, South Carolina,

UCLA, and St. 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:04.240 Mary's, of course. 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:07.600 I should also give a hat tip to Drexel who helped to write the case. 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:09.679 Yes, you should, and I'm glad that you did. 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.399 Um, so uh this has been around for a while now. 00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:15.679 All star started in the middle of the pandemic, I believe. 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:16.559 But is is that right? 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:17.759 How did it all get started? 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:29.840 It started in 2020, uh, when the pandemic hit, uh AJ Belita de Luna had the idea of doing something grand and saying, you know, we're not just gonna do something um online that is satisfactory, we want it to be amazing. 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:34.639 And so he organized a huge competition uh getting hosts involved around the country. 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:41.120 And after everything returned in person, uh we decided to put it on pause and then bring it back. 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:42.480 This is the second year of its return. 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:45.519 So I think this is all-star number five. 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:47.919 Wow, that is a a lot of all-star. 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:48.399 I love it. 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:50.320 Uh okay, I said bracket challenge. 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:51.759 You said 64 teams. 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:53.039 How do we winnow it down? 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:54.080 How do we get one? 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:54.799 Great questions. 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:55.519 Oh, thank you. 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:56.639 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:11.279 Uh so we have our regionals this weekend and next, three regionals this weekend, one next weekend, and each region has 16 teams, and they're gonna each produce two winners of the region that will go on to compete in person at national. 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:15.519 So these regions are on Zoom, and then the nationals will be eight teams competing in person. 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:17.360 Yeah. 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:29.039 Uh does that mean each region has what amounts to two brackets within them, two sub brackets, and you get a champion of each, or do you have one bracket and you have a the winner and the finalist both advance? 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:30.639 Another series of great questions. 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:31.600 Yeah. 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:32.000 Yeah. 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:42.080 So there'll be four preliminary rounds in each region, and at the end of the four preliminary rounds, the top four teams will advance to a playoff one versus four, winner goes to nationals, two versus three, winner goes to nationals. 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:42.799 Oh, cool. 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:43.120 Yeah. 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:43.600 Yeah. 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:47.519 So it is like two mini brackets at the end of the day, which is an awesome way to do it. 00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:48.320 Well done. 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:48.639 Okay. 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:50.399 Uh you gotta have a fact pattern to this whole thing. 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:51.440 So what's a fact pattern? 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:58.320 So over the summer, uh, Drexel and UCLA co-host a one-on-one college mock trial competition styled after Top Gun. 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:00.000 Uh, we call it Trial by Combat. 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:07.200 And we took this year's fact pattern, which was a one-on-one case based on Gone Girl, and styled it into a two-on-two case. 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:09.679 So this will be the first time anybody's used it as two-on-two. 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:10.879 Very exciting. 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:16.480 Uh, I'm excited for some All-Star bracket challenge breakage results soon, aren't you? 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:17.279 Very much. 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:21.200 Well, we are very excited to have All-Star this coming weekend next. 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:25.440 And so this week and next, we're going to be having on some folks associated with the competition. 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.320 I mentioned this tournament was started by AJ at St. 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:32.480 Mary's, but he now has even more help there uh at his outstanding program. 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:35.919 Spencer, you had a chance to interview their new assistant director. 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:38.480 Yes, I had the chance to sit down with Megan Diech. 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:42.480 It was really great to check back in with her second appearance on the podcast by my account. 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:43.679 Have a listen. 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:53.919 Our guest is Megan Dietch, the new assistant director of advocacy for the national team at St. 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:54.480 Mary's. 00:11:54.559 --> 00:12:01.360 She joins from the University of Houston Law Center, where she directed the ADR competition team through a decade of national championships and other big wins. 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:09.440 She also won the Syracuse Innovation in Law Award this year for Empathic Edge, an AI platform she built for practicing negotiation, which we discussed on the pod. 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:10.399 Megan, welcome back. 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:12.000 Hey, thanks for having me, Spencer. 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:12.639 I appreciate it. 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:13.919 Yeah, it's great to have you. 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:16.159 So I think more than 10 years in Houston. 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:18.399 What what made this the right time to make the move? 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:20.480 So I no longer live in Houston. 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:22.159 And it's it's odd. 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.080 I don't live in San Antonio either. 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.559 It's just it is kind of an easier trip for me. 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:28.000 Um but AJ reminded. 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:29.679 Where do you live, generally speaking? 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:32.080 So right now I live in Midland, Texas. 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:32.399 Okay. 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:35.360 Um, but and

that's my husband works in oil and gas. 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:37.519 We're actually moving to Dallas. 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:41.200 Um, and then we'll end up having an apartment, I think, in San Antonio. 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:43.440 So kind of going back and forth between the two. 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:43.759 Yeah. 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:45.039 Well, you don't want to be too close to AJ. 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:47.279 So I think that's actually a pretty good strategy. 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.159 Um, sorry, I interrupted you as you were explaining. 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:51.679 Um, no, you're good. 00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:52.159 You're good. 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:52.559 Yeah. 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:54.240 So AJ reminds me. 00:12:54.320 --> 00:13:00.720 Um, he said something to me maybe in the last year and uh about, you know, hey, would you want to come and coach for St. 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:01.279 Mary's? 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:05.679 Because a few years ago I was looking at moving to San Antonio for work. 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:07.919 And so we kind of talked about it on and off. 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:13.440 And he reminded me that we actually first talked about this before COVID, which I just I couldn't believe. 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:15.440 I was like, wow, so more than six years now. 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:19.360 And he was like, yeah, so it just took six years to finally make the transition. 00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:21.120 Well, congrats on the new role. 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:22.799 It is uh gonna be great at St. 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:23.279 Mary's. 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:27.600 How does it compare to what you were doing at at uh the University of Houston in terms of role? 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:29.919 So it's it's definitely different. 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:35.440 Even when I first started, AJ brought me on um really to coach uh on the DR team. 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:38.799 They call it NDART's the national dispute resolution team. 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:43.759 Um, and then he said, okay, hey, let's go ahead and make you assistant director of advocacy. 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:46.240 So uh I did used to coach mock trial. 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:48.240 I was actually a mock trial kid myself. 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:51.200 So it it's kind of fun to be back in that arena. 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:53.919 Moot court, I've mostly just judged before. 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:56.399 I I really haven't coached competitions before. 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:00.320 But I would say from the administrative side, it's it's still pretty much the same. 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:08.879 It's not as heavy of a lift, I think, just because I really kind of the ADR program at University of Houston did exist before me, but we didn't have boards. 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:12.799 We had maybe a team of like six students, then we ended up with over 30. 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.440 So, right, there's just like a lot of administrative loads. 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:19.039 So those are things I'm currently, you know, figuring out and taking over. 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:22.159 But um, my love of spreadsheets, I think helps. 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:23.360 Oh, that's gonna help you. 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:25.279 That that'll get you ahead in life, I will say. 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:34.559 Um so, so just to be clear for my sake, and so it's clear on the record, it's gotta be gotta be clear on the record, the uh the record of the podcast of some record. 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:43.200 Um, what's so I mean it was all ADR at Houston, but now you're gonna be supervising all three branches and playing a direct role in all of them, all of them, I take it. 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:44.240 Yep, that's correct. 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:45.759 I'm I'm learning from AJ. 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:47.279 Um, I'll start teaching. 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:49.759 I wasn't going to start teaching there until next year. 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:51.200 So I just came in coaching. 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:57.200 Now I'm assistant director, and now I believe I'll be teaching client counseling in the spring as well. 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:00.559 Um, but yeah, so I think it's it's over all three of them. 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:09.360 They have a board of advocates, which is a little bit different than University of Houston, um, but it's great because we've got, you know, the support of the students as well. 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:14.799 So, what's gonna be the division of labor between you, uh AJ and Jason Goss and of course other folks? 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:19.440 Well, my goal is to do whatever AJ tells me to do. 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:23.600 Um whatever he wants me to do, I'm going to do that. 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:27.279 And as far as coaches, I just don't want to step on anybody's toes. 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:32.799 For me this year, I see it a lot of like learning, um figuring out if there are differences between like the St. 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:35.600 Mary's way and the University of Houston way. 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:42.320 Um, I think that especially where there's like organizational need, like, hey, let's getting get let's get spar set up. 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:44.720 You know, do we have coaches assigned to watch this spar? 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:46.480 How are we getting feedback to the students? 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:47.600 Those sorts of things. 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:54.320 Um, I don't feel like I'm stepping on people's toes too much there as far as hey, maybe your students should do this in their opening. 00:15:54.399 --> 00:16:02.240 You know, I'm taking a step back there unless it's a team that I'm coaching, which right now I'm just finished coaching one or well, three teams at one competition. 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:03.919 They were actually at Syracuse. 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:09.600 Um, and then other two students are competing uh with Houston this week or yes, this week. 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:11.279 So you're busy right out of the

gates. 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:12.240 Yep, yep, yep. 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:17.919 This last weekend we were actually in Austin from Wednesday to Sunday for Texabotas best in Texas. 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:22.720 So we had the 10 law schools all over Texas where we do a Vor Dyer competition. 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:29.759 We had over 450 jurors there, and the students get to practice really essentially voard dire and opening statements. 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:30.240 Nice. 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:31.919 I know AJ's done a bunch of work on that. 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:34.799 Um, so in the announcement, I saw a couple things I wanted to ask you about. 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:39.840 Um, the ABA representation or ABA uh relationship with the mediation competition. 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:41.759 Um, sounds like that they're backing off. 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:44.799 I mean, that's that's outside my bailiwick, but I'm curious about that. 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:47.360 Um, and then there's also mention of a plea bargaining competition. 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:55.440 But can you just like explain for the you know the trial folks like you know, this this what the issue is with the ABA's involvement in this mediation competition? 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:56.559 Yeah, definitely. 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:01.360 So the ABA annually, we typically have a few different DR competitions. 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:05.039 We have ABA negotiation and ABA, ABA client counseling. 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:06.480 Those are both both still happening. 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:16.559 So ABA negotiation is in the fall, client counseling is in the spring, um, ABA mediation, it's gone back and forth before between like the law student division and the DR section. 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:18.880 I think it's back with the DR section now. 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:27.119 And really what happened was our uh ABA rep, Erica Zapeta, she is pregnant and will be out on maternity leave. 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:34.079 And uh I think everybody pushed, they said, hey, like we we will step in, we need to do something with negotiation and client counseling. 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:47.200 I I honestly think we all would have said the same thing for mediation as well, had we known, but I think that um the powers that be had decided that it was too much like work, especially with Erica while she's out. 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:51.440 And so the ABA is taking a step back from the mediation competition that it played that role in. 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:54.640 Is there are what's happening to fill that void, if anything? 00:17:54.880 --> 00:18:04.240 Yeah, so we um basically got a group together to discuss uh an alternative to representation and mediation and and really just replacement, I think, for this year. 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:08.160 And hopefully, you know, ABA brings it back in future years, but we'll see. 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:16.160 Um, we discussed actually using what I had created at Houston, which is a triathlon, where you start with the client counseling round. 00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:19.519 Uh the students basically learn from their client or potential client. 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:24.799 They go into a negotiation round and then they end in a mediation round and then they have an advancing round. 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:28.559 Uh so we met with uh with a number of folks. 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:29.920 It was a few months ago now. 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:34.160 I know AJ sent out a survey that was to be submitted by the end of August. 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:40.319 And I know that AJ and I were going to meet next week actually to talk about, hey, what is the timing of this? 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:46.640 Um, we did just find out dates for uh ABA client counseling, which were a little bit earlier than normal. 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.599 So that kind of impacts the schedule a little bit. 00:18:49.839 --> 00:19:00.720 But um, hopefully really this week or next week, we should be deciding and sending out, you know, something on the listserv indicating what the replacement will be, if any, which I feel confident that it will be. 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:06.240 I'm just curious to see if folks were okay with the triathlon or if they just wanted purely mediation. 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:06.799 Nice. 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.319 I'm glad to see perhaps folks like you stepping up to make that possible. 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.319 Uh, how about the plea bargaining competition? 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:13.119 What's what's going on there? 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:13.759 Yeah, okay. 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:23.359 So Todd Berger with Syracuse, Ben Warren with Cumberland, and I had been talking for years about the fact that in DR there's no criminal competition, right? 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:24.640 Which makes sense. 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:29.359 And so we've been discussing for years now a plea bargaining negotiation competition. 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:33.839 We're going to do this in the spring, but we're just beta testing it first. 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:36.240 It will be virtual and we'll have six schools. 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:40.079 Um, I think we've got Syracuse, Cumberland, University of Houston, St. 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:42.960 Mary's, University of San Francisco, and Stetson. 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:45.839 So we got all six schools finalized last week. 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:50.640 We'll be meeting later this week to just discuss like finalize the dates for it. 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:52.880 I think it will be March 2027. 00:19:53.039 --> 00:20:03.599 Um, basically, the way that that would work is the students we're saying kind of similar to Todd Berger's um, he has the transatlantic negotiation competition. 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:06.880 He allows them to have teams of between two and four students. 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:20.400 And that's because you could have, let's say you and I could do the first round, and then two more, two other people could do

the second round, and then we could do the third round, or you could alternate, but it it allows more students opportunity to get practice in. 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:27.039 Plus, when you do have competitions like Todd's tank, I think by the end of it, if you get all the way to the finals, it's like eight rounds. 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:29.440 So you can become pretty exhausted. 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:31.119 So you can have some relief there. 00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:32.480 We're doing it similar to that. 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.200 We're saying that I think it can be teams of two to four. 00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:40.480 Um, and in each round, it'll basically be two students, two students versus two students. 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:44.240 Somebody will be the prosecution, somebody will be the defense. 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.119 Um, the first two rounds basically they swap. 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:50.079 So if you're prosecution round one, you'll be defense round two. 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:53.680 The third round, we're going to send them sentencing guidelines. 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:56.000 So this will all be a fake jurisdiction. 00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:03.279 Um, we're gonna give them sentencing guidelines that Todd will be creating, and then they'll negotiate that third round based on those guidelines. 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:10.319 And then the advancing round, we will throw some sort of unique element or twist into it. 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:17.359 Um, and we've already had a discussion too about all the kinds of things that we can do, evidentiary-wise, fact-wise, right, to make it more balanced. 00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:17.920 That's great. 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.400 I'm glad you finally got Todd to play any role whatsoever in making a competition. 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:24.960 This guy, you know, is just doing nothing up there, you know. 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:27.039 I know, I know. 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:28.160 Todd, goodness. 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:29.440 Come on, geez. 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:36.559 Although I I I, of course, kid, I didn't realize that transatlantic negotiation competition is tank. 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:37.440 And is that what it's called? 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:38.319 Like, you know, are you going? 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:39.039 I'm going to tank. 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:41.359 Is that what you would call it if you're like on the team? 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:42.880 Yep, that's what we call it. 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:43.920 That's awesome. 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:45.680 That's good branding. 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:46.880 Um, all right. 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:49.680 Well, I wanted to finish by asking you about Empathic Edge. 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:54.880 So this is what we talked about, oh, I don't know, a little earlier this year, uh, and another Syracuse Connection. 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:57.440 It's what uh won you the Innovation Award. 00:21:57.599 --> 00:21:59.680 Um, just remind us what Empathic Edge is. 00:22:00.000 -->

00:22:02.720 And then to preview my next question, I'm just curious what the status is on it. 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:04.319 Um, yeah, thanks for asking about it. 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:08.559 So it is an AI role play app that focuses on negotiation training. 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:13.119 And I say negotiation, it actually also incorporates client counseling and interviewing. 00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:22.319 So basically, a student or user gets to um kind of like role play or spar like we would with our normal practices, but with an LLM. 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:24.799 Um, the so the AI is the counterpart. 00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:29.200 We also have multi-party, so you could even do like mediation rounds. 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:34.640 Um, and so as of right now, uh we have a design partnership going with Lewis and Clark. 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:41.119 And so one of their clinics is uh using the app, and then we may be getting another clinic of theirs to use it as well. 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.759 I'm doing a demo this week um for a law firm based out of Houston. 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:50.480 So they intend to uh prepare their intake team using it. 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:52.640 So it's really that client counseling aspect. 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:55.119 I use it in my client counseling class. 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:59.039 Uh really, that's actually part of their scored client interviews, is they use that. 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:01.200 So I'll be using that in the spring as well. 00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:10.640 And then um I've also, I know I told Todd I'm creating fact patterns for Syracuse so that they can practice for like ABA negotiation competitions. 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:12.079 I've done the same with St. 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:12.799 Mary's. 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:20.640 So when we just competed in uh Todd's NIL or name, image and likeness competition, it was over the weekend in Syracuse. 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:28.960 I uh created role play scenarios for all of my students so that they could practice even when they didn't have like their partner or a coach to observe them. 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:38.079 Uh I just gotta ask, and I don't know, had had you started other, well, you're certain your law firm, but I mean, any any uh thing, any other sort of tech related businesses before? 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:40.000 Or was this your first, first, first one? 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:41.599 This was my first one, yeah. 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:46.319 Cause outside of this, I have um yeah, my law firm and then my mediation practice. 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:50.880 And so, and now I have like a consulting company as well, but that's kind of an offshoot of Empathic Edge. 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:57.599 Yeah, I guess it's just interesting because I my my question is, I just wonder what it's like to be an entrepreneur in the tech space. 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.799 And I understand I I I know you're doing this for a lot of reasons, right? 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:02.000

Um, I'm sure that's one of them. 00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:16.160 But I'm just wondering what it's like to to be developing uh this entity um that's built on AI in the space of AI, in this reality we live in right now, where I mean it's terrifying, it's crazy, it's amazing. 00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:22.880 Um where two months from now, you know you could get them the amount of change you might have expected in five years before. 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:29.920 And what's that like to kind of ride that kind of wildly unpredictable wave of how this technology changes under you? 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:34.799 Uh it's scary, especially because more and more people now use like ChatGPT or Claude. 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:36.400 I mean, I use both daily. 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:39.839 Um I mean, somebody else can figure out how to do this. 00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:42.079 In fact, masterclass, they do their own. 00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:54.240 It's it's different, but you can practice a negotiation, kind of like a difficult conversation with a boss or somebody, and they use different personalities, people like maybe Chris Voss or Mark Cuban. 00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:56.960 Um, and then you can like call and kind of negotiate. 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:58.400 I I've tried that out before. 00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:03.920 I will say where ours is just different is that I actually like coach this, teach this. 00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:09.200 Um, I know in competitions what the rubrics are and like the judges' score sheets and ballots. 00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:14.559 And so we fed our LLM to take all of this information. 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:18.160 So we we started with our programmers, I think over a year ago now. 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:20.160 Um, and it's been a lot of fine-tuning. 00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:26.240 Only recently, I mean, I typically have numerous meetings a week with like our graphic artist as well as our programmers. 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.000 And recently I was like, hey, we just need to like let it sit and see how it works. 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:34.559 Um, like just continue to use it, let people play around with it, and we're getting feedback now. 00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:36.000 So it's definitely scary. 00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:44.000 I just haven't seen anything yet that um I would say compares to it in terms of the actual like context. 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:45.839 I know it's it's funny. 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:51.519 It's like when it becomes easier for everybody everybody to make tools, there's a few options. 00:25:51.599 --> 00:26:01.039 You know, people may make their own tools, um, or they may pick pick amongst the various tools that are out there that are somewhat similar, which I don't know, call me sim a simple human here. 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:04.559 Um, I hope that perhaps that actually weirdly makes it more human. 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:09.279 In other words, like, well, this is Megan's, you know, uh tool that she's created in her system. 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:10.799 I I know her, I know what she does. 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:13.839 I'm therefore gonna go with that instead of Mark Cuban or or whatever. 00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:15.200 You know, I I I don't know. 00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:19.440 I wonder if there's almost a human part to to the AI that you are using. 00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:19.920 Who knows? 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:25.839 But yeah, I would say another difference too is um we do have like a custom scenario creator. 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:28.160 So somebody could go in and create their own custom one. 00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:30.960 That's on like the upgraded version, but they have that option. 00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:33.519 So anything that's coming up, you could use it. 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:40.559 What I've also been doing for any of our design partners, or honestly, just anybody who asks is hey, can you create some scenarios for me? 00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:46.319 Uh, even this firm this week, I think they were like, okay, well, you know, we don't know exactly what we would need. 00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:47.119 Well, I do. 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:51.200 Um, like I've gone to their website, I know what they handle, I've done personal injury in the past. 00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:54.400 I was like, these are the scenarios that I recommend that I create for you. 00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:55.759 Let's do six right now. 00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:59.119 And then during the partnership, I'll do two more each week. 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:01.920 And so they they do get things that are fresh. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:09.440 Um, and if something comes up and they're like, hey, we have this new client objection, something that our staff needs to deal with, we we get to approach it. 00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:10.400 Well, it's very cool. 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:12.480 I love checking in to hear how that's going. 00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:15.599 And of course, also congratulations on the new position, Megan. 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:16.960 Thank you for joining us. 00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:18.319 It's it's great to get to chat with you. 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:19.039 Thank you so much. 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:20.319 I appreciate it, Spencer. 00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:29.759 But that's not our only interview related to All-Star Bracket Challenge. 00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:36.559 Uh, we have on Joe Perini Abbott, or as she will be known uh in January, Judge Joe Perini Abbott. 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:40.799 Indeed, great to have soon-to-be Judge Joe Perini Abbott on the show. 00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:49.839 Please introduce yourself and tell everybody what your title becomes in January. 00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:50.400 Sure. 00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:52.160 So I'm Joe Perini Abbott. 00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:55.599 I am currently the director of the advocacy center at Lewis and Clark. 00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:04.079 And January 4th, I take the bench to become a circuit court judge here in Multnomah County, which is the county that

Portland or uh Portland, Oregon is in. 00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:05.839 Well, let's let's talk about that. 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:17.680 So in May, you won the Multnomah County Circuit Court position five uh position uh on the bench with 64% of the vote against a prosecutor uh who had some time in the DA's office. 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:19.200 You take the bench on January 4. 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:22.000 What was it like to run for judge? 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:27.599 I think I was incredibly unprepared for what it was like to run for office. 00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:30.400 It's something I hadn't thought about ever doing. 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:36.960 Um, I was encouraged by friends to do it, and uh they quite honestly were like, it'll be easy. 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:42.400 Um if anyone, if you're ever persuaded to run for something, I think it's an incredible experience. 00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:47.039 There were many things I liked about it, but don't ever listen to someone who tells you that it'll be easy. 00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:52.640 I mean, it's it fills every gap of time you will you have for it. 00:28:52.880 --> 00:29:04.960 But um but at the end of the day, there was something really magical about being at a farmer's market talking to just average people about why electing judges matters or going to a bike rally and talking to average voters. 00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:11.359 Just it felt like I got to go out and talk to the public about why courts matter in terms of our entire society. 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:22.079 And that was actually a very fun piece of this whole idea of electing judges that I think we overlook, that there's this just civics education piece that can happen through the election process. 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:26.799 I have knocked a lot of doors in my time, and that that's one part of it that I love. 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.319 I've never got to do it as a candidate, but I've done it with candidates. 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:34.880 I remember knocking doors with somebody just outside Sacramento, and her name was Jessica Morse. 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:35.759 She's incredible. 00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:40.079 Um, and and you know, I'm I'm going down the list, like, here's a door you're supposed to go do in that one and skip these three. 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:41.519 And she's going to every door. 00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:44.160 And I know that's not terribly efficient, but it's kind of what you're talking about. 00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.440 It's like, no, she that she wants to represent this community, all of it. 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:47.920 Right. 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:50.400 Just like and and have a conversation with any and everybody. 00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:50.720 Yeah. 00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:52.480 And as judges, we're nonpartisan. 00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:59.680 It's not like and it's not like I'm gonna bring my politics into the courtroom or or I'm at least gonna do the best I can to check them at the door. 00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:03.359 So why shouldn't I want to talk to every possible voter who's out there? 00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:04.079 I love that. 00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:09.759 Now you spent your whole career in front of judges, federal defender in Milwaukee and then Perkins Cooey and Angelie. 00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:13.119 What made you decide that you wanted to be on the other side of it? 00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:15.440 I mean, what was the aside from your friends suggesting you do it? 00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:17.920 There had to be some instigating reason. 00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:28.960 Yeah, I think what I what really drew me to the idea of being especially a state court trial level judge was the size of the impact you can have. 00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:35.279 Um, you know, here, especially in academia, but I think in the in the dialogue of the community at large, right? 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:37.680 We think so much about what's happening at the Supreme Court. 00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:40.000 We spend so much mental energy thinking about that. 00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:43.359 And obviously it's super important and impacts cases everywhere. 00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:48.799 But the truth is, an average Multnomah County judge has about a thousand cases on their docket a year. 00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:57.680 So when you figure every case has two parties, sometimes a lot more, that's 2,000 times a year you get to impact someone's life directly. 00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:09.359 Um, sometimes you may make them happy with the ruling, sometimes not, but whatever you're doing, you can make the scariest day of their life a little less scary by ensuring that your courtroom is welcoming, that they feel heard, that they feel understood. 00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:17.920 And that is just such a massive impact, I think, even beyond what you can have as an attorney taking one case at a time or as a law professor training the next generation. 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:25.519 It it just seemed like a real opportunity to have direct impact on so many people at once. 00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:26.400 Absolutely. 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:33.200 And a related point is I know that you got uh some endorsements based in part on the fact of your background, uh, being a federal public defender. 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:40.480 And I think the bench there was prosecutor heavy and somewhere of the view that um having somebody with your background would help to deepen the bench. 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:45.200 How important is that, do you think, that a bench has folks from all backgrounds, especially on the criminal side? 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:54.160 I think it's really important that we see people on the bench from all sides, criminal, um, both prosecutor and defense attorneys and civil attorneys. 00:31:54.319 --> 00:32:10.880 I think one thing that's really important that both um, I think in particular, plaintiff's lawyers bring, which I haven't been, but criminal defense lawyers bring, is that understanding of what that

one-on-one client representation looks like and an understanding of just how raw of a moment it is for people in the courtroom. 00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:17.680 And I think having deep experience in those one-on-one client moments really can make for a great judge. 00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:23.920 Now, I think there's also a lot of space for needing strong former prosecutors on the bench and civil defense attorneys too. 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:33.839 But I do think criminal defense and plaintiff's lawyers bring a unique perspective from that real person-centric representation that we've had to do through our careers. 00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:39.039 Well, let's talk about where you're coming from, which is Lewis and Clark and what you built there. 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.519 You arrived in January 23 to build the advocacy center from nothing. 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:48.400 It was funded by a non-lawyer, a computer forensics expert, done quite well, as I recall. 00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:52.079 Uh, and he wanted the people who are deposing him to be trained a little bit better. 00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:57.839 So uh three and a half years in, um, what exists now that that doesn't then? 00:32:58.000 --> 00:32:59.279 I mean, tell us about what's been built. 00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:02.240 Yeah, we've been building at a fast and furious pace. 00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:10.240 And and candidly, there were there were pieces here, which I was I was coming into a school with already like an incredibly strong clinical department. 00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:13.839 So we had a real deep care for experiential learning. 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:20.400 Um, but for the most part, our simulate like our triad classes, everything was done by adjuncts and was kind of disparate. 00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.400 And so what I was able to do was bring it together. 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:27.519 And the minute we brought it together, we just realized what a thirst there was from the student body, and we were able to grow. 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:34.400 I mean, when I started in 2023, we sent four students to the Tyler competition for mock trial every year, and that was it. 00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:43.039 And I think this fall alone, we're going to eight competitions, and I have a team of 26 students, and that's 26 students who made it through a competitive tryout process, right? 00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:48.480 So it's, I mean, just the thirst for it has grown so much among our student bodies. 00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:53.200 And I think we've we're seeing even more respect for it among our alumni. 00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:57.200 Our mock trial team has a hundred percent job placement rate at graduation. 00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:02.000 Um, we've really gotten connected sort of in the national community a lot more than we ever were before. 00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:04.079 Our MOOC courts are doing great. 00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:05.759 We've grown the classes we have. 00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:08.480 We now have an integrated evidence and trial advocacy class. 00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:11.119 We have an appellate advocacy class we didn't have before. 00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:25.440 So we've been really able to just grow offerings, both for competitive teams and seats for students who don't want to be on competitive teams, but to give them courtroom experience, deposition experience, oral advocacy experience across the board. 00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:38.480 Um, I think really strengthening that pipeline to what was already our very strong clinics to make our graduates just really hireable upon graduation, which is obviously the ultimate goal, to make good lawyers on the back end of all of it. 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:44.239 I mean, the measures of success are multiple and the that success has come, you know, come quickly. 00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:52.719 I mean, in the first season that you're running the program, 24th and Gavel and out at NTC regionals, you uh beat that UCLA team, I think you've heard of them. 00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:56.719 They had a 50 plus 50 plus round uh street internationals. 00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:58.000 You've handled that. 00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:02.800 Has the has have you been surprised at how quickly the program has grown and the success has come? 00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:12.400 I think what I've seen is that um, I mean, I've been very uh obviously I'm very happy with how quickly success has come and how the growth has happened. 00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:19.119 But um I I don't know if I would say I've been surprised, but it's it's been incredible to see this wasn't on my back. 00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:23.280 This was on the back of like I sort of showed up and said, let's do this. 00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:29.519 And students and the Portland legal community and other faculty, like people just showed up, right? 00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:38.480 And so when you have that many people excited to do something, it's like I don't want to say success in a is inevitable because it's always a fight for success, right? 00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:41.119 But but it makes it a lot easier and a lot more fun. 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:45.280 Um, we're just really lucky we're in a place where the legal community cares enough. 00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:48.000 If I start a new mock trial team, I can get a new coach for it. 00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:51.679 Like someone wants to coach it and and good, strong attorneys in the community, right? 00:35:51.760 --> 00:36:06.159 And it's been really incredible to see how I think I think one of the things that's been most incredible is to see how excited our lawyers are that this is happening at Lewis and Clark and finding ways to get involved and show up for our students is really the driver of success we're seeing. 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:09.760 So what happens with what you and others have built? 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:12.320 Are you still going to teach and help with the program? 00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:14.239 And who's gonna run the advocacy

center now? 00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:29.679 Yeah, so we um we put out a job posting this summer and we are interviewing and hopefully by October we'll be in a position to announce who will be taking my place and give us a nice runway to for transition. 00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:38.559 Um and then, you know, my my goal is to I want to be able to fully turn it over this thing to someone. 00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:45.280 I don't want students still coming to me saying they're not doing it the way you would do it, because it's not, it's gonna become their program, right? 00:36:45.920 --> 00:37:03.679 Um, and so I I I expect and want to stay involved in coaching forever, but I do also want to make sure that whoever takes my space wants me to do that and feels like they have control of the program and that I'm there as a coach and no, and I'm not this sort of forever shadow over it. 00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:06.719 Uh, does that mean you still get to take part in the annual champagne toast? 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:07.599 I mean forever. 00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:09.840 I better be invited to the champagne toast forever. 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.760 That's that's my one rule. 00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:19.840 For those who've forgotten, it's it's it's written into the gift agreement from from the donor that there's be an annual champagne toast, which sounds great to me. 00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:33.280 I am curious though, uh, you'd mentioned in the past how you know you you wanted to keep taking federal criminal cases that you were appointed for because you know it's hard to stand in front of students and and tell them how to do something if if you know you're several years out of practice. 00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:35.360 How is that going to translate in your mind when you're on the bench? 00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:39.840 I mean, you're gonna be seeing a lot of trials, but you're not gonna be trying them personally, but you still want to be coaching. 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:41.920 How do you plan on navigating that? 00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:51.440 I think as a judge, you're in the courtroom every day, you're seeing good and bad advocacy, you're really connected to it still in a in a significantly meaningful way. 00:37:51.519 --> 00:38:02.000 I I know you're not presenting and doing it, but um, I think I think I'm not worried about the credibility as a coach if I'm if I'm not practicing, but I'm but I'm on the bench. 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:12.000 But I do think it's important to, you know, keep public speaking skills sharp and trying to find places to sort of continue to at least build those skills. 00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:13.360 Um and yeah. 00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:14.400 Got it. 00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:15.679 Let's finish with some fun stuff. 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:24.400 Uh last time you told us you can crochet the heck out of a blanket, but only in straight lines, and you run half marathons, but slowly any progress on either front. 00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:27.760 Um small progress

on the crocheting. 00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:30.000 I can now do a a granny square. 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:32.559 So like the flowers where you but but not good. 00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:34.000 They're my granny square. 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:36.320 I am still a very straight line crocheter. 00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:36.719 I love it. 00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:37.760 That's two dimensions. 00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:41.199 Also take up um embroidery, like needle point. 00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:42.079 Cool. 00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:46.480 I mean, really, all of this is just a sign of my own ADHD that needs something to do. 00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:50.239 I need something to do with my hands while I watch TV or do anything else. 00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:57.920 Um no, I am still a very slow runner, but have another half marathon coming up in October. 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:00.239 So we'll see how the time is. 00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:01.760 Okay. 00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:02.320 All right. 00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:06.239 Uh next, you went on record calling voodoo donuts a little overrated. 00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:11.280 I know you're not supposed to prejudge any of the cases that may come before you, but will that be the position of the court when you're on the bench? 00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:13.840 It's actually it's it's precedent at this point. 00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:16.320 There's a precedential decision. 00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:22.079 I I just bought donuts for all of my 1.0 class that I'm teaching right now, and it was Blue Star, not voodoo. 00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:22.880 Okay, wow. 00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:23.440 That's okay. 00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:24.719 It sounds like precedent. 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:26.719 And finally, this is your third time on the show. 00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:32.000 After the first one, you posted on LinkedIn that your podcast debut was sadly not a true crime podcast. 00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:36.239 Have your expectations come down, or are we just still disappointing you? 00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:41.840 Um, I love being on this podcast, but I I would like to solve a crime with you, Spencer. 00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:43.039 It would be great. 00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:44.239 It would be great. 00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:45.199 Maybe we will. 00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:46.159 Maybe we will. 00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:48.480 Uh that we'll save that for the next time you're on the pod. 00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:53.280 But Judge Preeny Abbott uh to be, thank you so much for coming on the podcast again. 00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:53.760 Great. 00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:55.519 Thank you so much for having me, Spencer. 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:02.800 Spencer, that was a fantastic interview. 00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:03.679 Thank you very much. 00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:04.719 It was very nice to do it. 00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:12.639 Uh, you know, I I don't want to have to call out um Judge Joe, but I I feel like our I owe it to our listeners, and I I think I owe it to her, right? 00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:14.639 You know, she's whatever you're gonna do, do it. 00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:14.960 Yep. 00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:15.599 Yeah. 00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:24.960 So uh at uh first chair in San Diego, uh John Bishop decided that he had a trivia competition uh the the night before things began. 00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:29.840 And he's like, Oh, Justin wanted me to have a social event and and you know, uh, you know, have some sort of game. 00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:32.239 And I'm like, no, I didn't actually need you to do that. 00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:33.679 He's like, no, but I I want to. 00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:41.119 Uh so we had we had a uh a trivia mixer and he did a great job of he wrote all the questions himself, had three rounds of questions, they're really fun. 00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:46.480 Um, and he made sure that the teams were really mixed because uh we wanted everybody to get to know each other. 00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:50.960 So every team had to have two students from different programs and a coach from a third program. 00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:53.039 He said each each team has to be a three-person team. 00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:53.599 That's cool. 00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:54.480 Yeah, really cool. 00:40:54.639 --> 00:41:01.039 And um they had they had the competition and uh we we heard the winning team announced and we looked over and there was Judge Joe Priyan. 00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:03.039 So so congratulations, Judge. 00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:03.760 There we go. 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:04.480 Victory, yeah. 00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:05.760 Yeah, uh big win, big win. 00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:06.800 And I wish I could stop there. 00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:09.199 I wish I could say, I wish I could say big win. 00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:11.119 Uh, but the the win was a little too big. 00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:15.039 Oh because when I looked over at the table, they had four people. 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:16.480 Oh, yeah, yeah. 00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:22.800 Now, one might say they weren't trying to cheat that in fact people came in late and they were just making room so more people could, you know, participate. 00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:24.159 Rules are rules, man. 00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:25.119 You know, right. 00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:29.199 So uh I know we did break earlier uh in the in the episode. 00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:31.840 Um we are not announcing your trivia victory, Judge. 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:34.159 Yeah, I it has it been formally withdrawn. 00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:34.960 I you know. 00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:36.800 Uh yeah, let's do it right now. 00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:38.800 Speaking of yeah, okay, withdrawn, yes, okay. 00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:41.760 Uh let me just say something that's uh a little tangential. 00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:48.719 I was in Michigan this weekend, uh, and uh we went to uh the Chrysler Center, uh, where they play basketball and volleyball. 00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:50.159 Watch some volleyball, it was amazing. 00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:53.519

Looked up in the rafters and saw all the final four banners up there. 00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:55.039 And I was like, wait a minute. 00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:58.559 Um the Fab Five are none of those years. 00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:05.360 And I I remembered that uh the Fab Fives, uh their final four banner was uh taken down, right? 00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:10.159 They uh there's rule infractions that uh got C Web and what Jimmy Key? 00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:11.679 Uh who else is in there, Justin? 00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:12.480 Juan Howard? 00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:13.199 Jalen Rose. 00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:14.000 Jalen Rose. 00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:15.679 Who's the fifth one though? 00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:16.880 Less fab. 00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:18.079 Anyway. 00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:20.800 It's like f Fab Four and a fine fifth. 00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:23.119 Uh I I like the analogy. 00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:26.239 Are you saying that Judge Preney Abbott's uh banner was just taken down? 00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:28.000 Well, is that is it still up? 00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:28.960 I guess that's my point. 00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:29.679 Oh, okay. 00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:34.239 Well, so does that mean that um we need to give a banner to a new winning team? 00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:36.079 The correct winning team? 00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:36.559 Yes. 00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:40.639 I don't know who who got the correct banner from the Fab Four, but Fab Five, but okay. 00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:41.920 Anyway, yeah, yes, we should. 00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:44.320 It's time for the break. 00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:48.239 I I didn't know I was going to do it by myself. 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:51.440 I think you're doing it by yourself really shows us who's carrying the load on that. 00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:55.440 But anyway, you know, I I just want the bass tones in there too, you know? 00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:58.079 I just I just want the students to be recognized. 00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:04.000 Uh we have from our our our fairly winning team from uh from Lewis and Clark. 00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:04.400 That's right. 00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:08.639 So Judge Pretty Abba tried to take the the right the rightful victory from her own student. 00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:11.840 Oh uh we have Mave Stargard, incredible performance. 00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:15.840 Uh we have from Stetson, Jacob Reichel, their top gun from last year. 00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:16.320 Wow. 00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:19.440 Amazing, amazing trivia competitor, um, and me. 00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:22.480 I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:25.280 I why would this matter so much? 00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:28.239 How could it possibly be that he would know the answers to these questions? 00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:31.440 Well, I knew I knew I knew the answers to the trivia questions too. 00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:34.639 Of course you did, just not as many as Judge Prince Abbott's team did. 00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:36.719 Of course they, you

know, they're an extra person helping there. 00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:39.840 Um, but who's who's who's really keeping track anyway? 00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:41.599 Unscripted direct. 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:44.079 We're keeping track. 00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:47.599 Is that a new catchphrase? 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:50.159 Like uh yeah, we're keeping track, fair and balanced. 00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:51.760 No, no, we're keeping track. 00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:52.880 I I don't know. 00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:54.960 Uh because you made me do the break by myself. 00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:57.440 So you can do your catchphrase by yourself. 00:43:57.679 --> 00:43:59.280 All right, we got we got we got one more interview. 00:43:59.519 --> 00:43:59.840 Let's keep it going. 00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:00.559 Let's keep it going. 00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:03.760 You had a chance for a very important interview this week. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:12.239 Yes, I got to speak with HT Smith from Florida International University about a really important current challenge his school is facing. 00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:17.119 I believe Jules had had uh had talked about this on the listserv and certainly caught my attention. 00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:24.480 And it was a great excuse to get to talk to HT, completely interesting guy who's done a whole bunch of amazing things in civil rights through the years. 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:29.360 And I'm so tempted to steal more of his time for a longer interview, but this was a fun, a fun short one. 00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:30.400 Here's HT. 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:45.599 Our guest is HT Smith, founding director of the trial advocacy program at FIU College of Law and a partner in the first black-owned law firm to open its doors in downtown Miami. 00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:54.960 He served as president of the National Bar Association, chaired the Declaration of Rights Committee of Florida's Constitution Revision Commission, and chaired the 11th Circuit's Judicial Nominating Commission. 00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:58.639 The National Law Journal named him one of the top ten litigators in the country. 00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:08.639 The Dade County Bar voted him its top trial lawyer, and he's in the National Bar Association's Hall of Fame, the University of Miami, where he sits on the Board of Trustees as vice chairman, has named a building after him. 00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:10.559 HT, welcome to the podcast. 00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:11.840 Thank you for inviting me. 00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:13.119 I'm privileged to be here. 00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:15.039 Well, we are honored to have you. 00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:26.639 And the reason that uh we got the idea to ask you onto the podcast was Jules Epstein's uh email to the listserv about the op-ed that you wrote uh about FIU law. 00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:27.760 So let's start with the facts. 00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:30.000 FIU law has an interim dean. 00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:30.559 Who is he? 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:32.960 The interim dean is Daniel Z. 00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:34.079 Epstein. 00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:46.719 He happens to be uh a civil lawyer for President Donald Trump, and he also happens to be the vice chairman of American America First Legal, and the president is Stephen Miller, who works in the White House. 00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:55.039 So aside from those items, uh what's a brief overview of his legal career prior to becoming FIU's law dean, interim dean? 00:45:55.519 --> 00:46:18.239 Basically, he has been uh involved in litigation, uh been with big law firms, et cetera, been uh working in the White House, et cetera, but he has no connections whatsoever to academia, to fundraising, or any leadership positions in organizations like the military or Fortune 500 Company or s or creating or being part of creating his own company. 00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:22.880 All the kind of attributes uh that you would look for in a leader of a law school. 00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:28.079 I, for one, do not believe that you need to be uh uh in academia to lead a law school. 00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:35.840 I believe a general who leads hundreds of thousands of men and women in in the military, especially in combat, can lead a law school. 00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:43.280 I believe that people who are great in fundraising and leadership in big uh not-for-profit organizations can lead a law school. 00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:46.880 I believe that leaders of Fortune 500 companies can lead a law school. 00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:50.960 However, Epstein has none of those uh qualifications. 00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:59.280 And he was found by the search and screen committee to be woefully unqualified to the extent that he did not even get an interview. 00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:03.679 So this begs the question: how did he get the interim dean job? 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:10.880 Well, I can tell you that the search committee process uh started off as a normal fair process. 00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:15.519 I happen to be on the search committee for the inaugural dean. 00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:18.559 Florida International is only 23 years old. 00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.719 To get some context for that, the oldest law school in Florida is Stetson. 00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:27.199 And Stetson is exactly 100 years older than FIU. 00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:32.000 FIU right now, and I tell my trial team all the time, we're like teenagers. 00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:38.480 We're not even grown yet in terms of the law school and trial team and trial program environment. 00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:41.360 So I was selected to serve on the search committee. 00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:46.639 I had already submitted my uh retirement effective August 12th of this year. 00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:50.159 But I felt it was my duty to serve, and so I served. 00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:55.119 And on the first meeting, I looked around the room and said, Well, I'm I'm really proud to serve on this committee. 00:47:55.280 --> 00:48:01.599 We had six people from

the law school, uh including one of those six was the president of the student bar association. 00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:23.440 The chair was a distinguished uh uh chairman of or dean of the medical school, and the other uh five four people were just distinguished members of different colleges: black and white, Jew and Gentile, Hispanic, non-Hispanic, male, female, people on the in the federal society, and people who were in the American Constitution uh society. 00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:25.519 I said, this is going to be wonderful. 00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:27.119 And so we started off. 00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:32.239 Uh the provost uh did what she does all the time and gave us our charge. 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:34.320 This is what we want you to look for. 00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:41.840 And basically, she wanted us to align the strategic plan of the school in general, the university, FIU. 00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:44.320 We want the law school to be aligned with that. 00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:48.079 And here were the goals for us to reach by 2020 as a law school. 00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:50.079 And so we we started out. 00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:57.920 Uh, we had a search committee, a search firm, like most uh people do, and uh we got 39 applications. 00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:10.320 And I can tell you, I I was shocked is not too strong a word to see the caliber of deans and military people and leaders who wanted to be dean of our law school. 00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:14.159 We were all saying, hey, the the law school has finally arrived. 00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:19.920 Uh and so we took those 39 applications, Spencer, and we put had two tiers. 00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:27.920 Tier number one was the 20 people that we thought had some qualifications, and tier number two were the other 19 that put aside. 00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:32.239 Well, I had Daniel Epstein as number 21. 00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:48.239 By the way, at that time I did not know he worked in the White House in Trump's first administration, and I did not know that he had uh he was also vice president of America American First Legal because his application was so woefully unqualified. 00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:59.760 I mean, he okay, he was a lawyer, he had he had worked in big law firms, so I had him at least in a qualified group, but not I didn't, he wasn't considered seriously. 00:49:59.920 --> 00:50:01.679 So I didn't look further into him. 00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:15.039 We met and we discussed and debated the people who had applied, the applicants, and we came up with 10 that the top 10 that we would interview because we needed to do it over three-day period. 00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:27.440 And out of the top 10, based upon the group that we had, we said, wow, we're gonna get a fantastic uh uh candidate to leave the school because the law school has been on a meteoric rise to the top. 00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:29.679 Right now, nobody knows this. 00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:35.440 FIU, Florida National University College of

Law, is the GOAT in bar passage. 00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:39.280 We've been in existence 20 years, and 10 years we've been number one. 00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:47.440 Michael Jordan didn't win 10 championships, Serena Williams didn't win 10 championships, Tiger Woods didn't win 10 championships, so we're the GOAT. 00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:54.800 As a matter of fact, one year we were number one in the nation, Stanford was number two, and we've developed a good trial advocacy program, international law, etc. 00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:56.559 Back to the search. 00:50:56.719 --> 00:51:03.920 And so we bring the 10 candidates in and we we we interview them, and they are just as good or better than the paperwork. 00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:05.760 Very good in terms of their presence. 00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:14.159 The things we teach for trial advocacy, those are that's how we want people to be able to message, be the messenger for the school. 00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:15.440 We selected three. 00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:28.079 It was tough, but we finally settled on three because based upon the strategic plan of the university, the focus would be uh artificial intelligence, uh international, and we're Florida International. 00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:30.559 We definitely should be a leader international. 00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:47.920 And because we were, you know, when I started as an inaugural director of the tribal advocacy program, it was a little tough because I had if you start, we had no alumni, and we had what I would call a survivalist budget. 00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:54.960 And so uh here we have three fantastic people who met that criteria from the charge that we received. 00:51:55.199 --> 00:52:02.639 And so we all gave the the provost the three recommendations and we began shaking hands and hugging. 00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:04.000 Oh, we did a great job. 00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:06.079 And the provost said, Whoa, wait a minute. 00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:10.639 In the history of the school, on rare occasions, there are failed searches. 00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:13.119 And we were looking around the room and we were laughing. 00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:14.480 This one won't fail. 00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:17.920 These are the people we'd have gone out and tried to beg to come here. 00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:29.280 But the provost said, I'll tell you what, will you all agree to stay impaneled as a uh search committee just in the unlikely event there would be a failed search? 00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:31.199 We all said, Yeah, we'll we would do it. 00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:35.280 And so we waited, and a month later we get there's nothing happened. 00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:39.519 We get an email said that the committee has been disbanded. 00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:43.199 I smelled a rat because they asked us to stay. 00:52:43.360 --> 00:52:45.039 We didn't even know that you could do that. 00:52:45.199 --> 00:53:05.119 And then we got uh uh uh an email advising that the president has decided to use her inherent authority to select the next dean without a search committee, without vetting by any other committee or any vetting by the law school faculty. 00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:08.719 Now it's something really stinky that's happening. 00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:20.239 And then after that, the the the president said announced that the new interim denimdan would be a man by the name of Daniel Epstein. 00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:21.760 I had forgot who he was. 00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:24.000 So I said, I've heard that name before. 00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:32.239 I go back to the panel and say, my my papers and said, wait a minute, this was a guy, one of the guys that we we said was unqualified. 00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:38.000 And then I began to research and find out he was President Trump's lawyer in the first term. 00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:50.239 He worked with Stephen Miller and that he had been uh the vice president of Stephen Miller's extreme right-wing MAGA legal organization called America First Legal. 00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:58.960 You do not have to be Sherlock Holmes to be able to figure out how Interim, uh uh Dean Epstein got the position. 00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:01.119 But guess what, Spencer? 00:54:01.599 --> 00:54:11.840 After he got the position, uh Judge Kathleen Williams in the Southern District of Florida issued a scathing opinion in the case that everybody knows about. 00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:12.960 I was gonna ask you about this. 00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:16.000 Yeah, what what did she find and and what did the order actually uh say? 00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:29.599 Okay, this this was the case that President Trump, President Trump's sons and the Trump organization sued the sued the Internal Revenue Service for$100 billion. 00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:31.280 Or was it$10 billion? 00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:32.159 $10 billion. 00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:32.880 $10 billion. 00:54:33.119 --> 00:54:33.360 I'm sorry. 00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:34.559 $10 billion. 00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:35.039 Right. 00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:35.599 Okay. 00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:39.760 Well, in that case, Epstein was his lawyer. 00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:43.440 Epstein's name was on the complaint, but he did not sign it. 00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:51.440 Well, he did not sign it because uh he probably put his name on it because I'm sure Trump wouldn't pay him if his name wasn't on the complaint. 00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:54.800 But he could not sign it because he was not a member of the Florida bar. 00:54:54.960 --> 00:55:05.519 He was not a member of the Southern District of Florida, and as we lawyers know the term pro Hawk Vichy, he had not gotten permission of the judge, Judge Kathleen Williams, to be a part of the case. 00:55:05.679 --> 00:55:24.639 So without him having any authorization to file this$100 million lawsuit, he gave permission to us to Blanche, who was Trump's former criminal defense attorney, and then acting attorney general to get a 90-day delay in responding to the complaint.

00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:26.480 Well, he didn't have the authority to do that. 00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:33.440 109 days later, the case was settled for$1.776 billion. 00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:39.280 35 former judges wrote to Judge Kathleen Williams and said, We've been following this case. 00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:42.800 And as for those of you who watched the uh O.J. 00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:49.119 Simpson case, uh the one one of the witnesses said, something wrong with this. 00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:52.960 And something was very wrong because here are the facts. 00:55:53.119 --> 00:55:54.000 Undisputed. 00:55:54.159 --> 00:55:57.199 The case was settled for$1.776 billion. 00:55:58.639 --> 00:56:00.480 The government never defended. 00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:02.320 There are no motions in the case. 00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:06.000 There are no requests for production of the case or any discovery. 00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:07.920 There are no depositions in the case. 00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:23.679 In 109 days, Epstein was able to get$1.776 billion of taxpayer money for President Trump to have an anti-weapon weaponization fund, which is correctly called a sludge fund. 00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:27.840 But even more than that, the statute of limitations had to run on the case. 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:36.159 And so the judges, the 35 federal judges, former federal judges, Democrat and Republican, said, Judge Williams, you need to look into this. 00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:48.079 Well, Judge Williams set a hearing for a certain date, let's say a certain date, and said, Explain to me how President Trump can sue the agencies that report to him. 00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:50.239 How is their case in controversy? 00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:52.239 And explain to me these other things. 00:56:52.480 --> 00:57:07.519 Two days before the hearing, Epstein, representing the plaintiffs and Todd Blanche, representing the defendants, signed a settlement agreement, a so-called settlement agreement, and then dismissed the case and said, Judge, you have no jurisdiction. 00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:08.960 We've settled the case. 00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:13.440 Well, the the judges wrote to the judges had done research. 00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:19.679 They wrote and said, hey, normally the case is closed, but if there's a fraud on the court, you can open it up to look in the fraud. 00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:20.960 And that's what she did. 00:57:21.119 --> 00:57:38.880 And as a result, she issued a 56-page page opinion, basically stating one, that the case was filed for uh a purpose that was a wrong uh improper purpose, and that the case was filed to manipulate the judicial process. 00:57:39.199 --> 00:57:46.880 She sanctioned Epstein now on a one-year ban that he cannot practice in the Southern District of Florida. 00:57:46.960 --> 00:57:51.679 The Southern District is located, the law school is located in the Southern District. 00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:56.960 Law students are clerking in the summer for federal judges in

the summer district, southern district. 00:57:57.199 --> 00:58:05.599 Law students are clerking for law firms that are practicing in the summer, southern district, and the dean cannot show his face in the courthouse for a year. 00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:23.360 Now, how is it, Spencer, that we in the law school at Florida International are going to instill the core principles of ethics, professionalism, and civility when the dean of the law school, interim dean, is the poster boy for ethical corruption. 00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:25.280 I don't think that it's possible. 00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:45.360 You've you've you've uh you've pre-saged some of my questions, but I have to ask you one, uh when you learned that Daniel Epstein had been appointed the interim dean after this sort of month hiatus, which was sort of unclear to you why that was even happening, um, and then you had to sort of do your investigative work um uh to figure out why. 00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:54.239 Was there any pre-existing connection between the Trump administration and FIU, or was this like totally out of the blue to you that this would even happen? 00:58:54.719 --> 00:59:04.159 Uh well, it was totally out of the blue, but there has been a hostile takeover of all public universities in Florida by Governor DeSantis. 00:59:04.239 --> 00:59:04.320 Right. 00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:15.679 If you look at the presidents of all of the universities uh in Florida, there are people who are politically connected to MAGA or to DeSantis personally. 00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:18.480 And heads of the they were in the legislature. 00:59:18.639 --> 00:59:23.119 They were uh people who were lobbyists uh for the Republican Party. 00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:27.440 There were people who like Epstein, who uh worked in the White House. 00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:30.480 So I wasn't surprised that it was done. 00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:37.280 I was surprised because the process started off fairly, fairly, and it was corrupted in the middle of the process. 00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:38.800 That's what surprised me. 00:59:39.199 --> 00:59:51.199 You know, my alma mater is Florida EM, which is a historically black college, and our president what was uh a person who was uh connected politically uh to DeSantis. 00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:53.360 So we were not surprised about that. 00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:55.840 And so this is awful, really awful. 00:59:56.000 --> 01:00:00.000 And and so I met when I found out about it, I asked for a meeting with the president. 01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:01.199 And she surprised me. 01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:02.239 She surprised me. 01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:08.559 She met with me along with uh the the head of the board, the chairman of the board of trustees and the provost. 01:00:08.800 --> 01:00:19.360 And basically, well, I basically you know told them what I told you and said, you know, that you broke my heart because you employing me, basically you would sit. 01:00:19.519 --> 01:00:34.719 I thought that meant that you trusted me, that you respected me, that you respected my time, that you respected the fact that I had integrity to make a selection on a recommendation that was based upon merit and not based upon any other considerations. 01:00:34.880 --> 01:00:37.920 And then you turn around and take all of the hard work. 01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:43.519 I'm not speaking for anybody else on the other ten people, but you took our hard work and threw it in the trash. 01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:50.719 And after telling us that if you did not select one of the three, that you would bring us back and finish the process. 01:00:50.800 --> 01:01:02.639 And then all of a sudden, you not only do you not bring us back, but you don't allow anybody, any entity at the law school or any other place in the university to vet. 01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:05.440 And then you told us you trusted us. 01:01:05.679 --> 01:01:09.760 We told you Epstein was unqualified, woefully unqualified. 01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:17.199 And after the fact, after he was unqualified and you selected him anyway, Judge Kathleen Williams said that he was corrupt. 01:01:17.519 --> 01:01:20.000 She sanctioned him pursuant to Rule 11. 01:01:20.079 --> 01:01:27.760 And right now, as I sit here talking to you, Madam President, he is banned from practicing law in the Southern District of Florida. 01:01:27.920 --> 01:01:31.119 Here, Madam President, where your university is located. 01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:34.719 And I ask you to put him on administrative leave. 01:01:34.880 --> 01:01:38.639 Anybody else with that hanging over their heads will be placed on administrative leave. 01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:40.000 He's appealed to it. 01:01:40.159 --> 01:01:41.920 Give him a chance to clear his name. 01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:45.760 If he clears his name, then that's that's your decision. 01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:49.840 But until then, this is really damaging to the university's reputation. 01:01:50.079 --> 01:01:51.360 What was the response that you got? 01:01:51.519 --> 01:01:56.639 Her response, well, I've talked to people uh in the community and they think this is a good idea. 01:01:56.800 --> 01:02:08.079 Plus, the Miami Herald came out with an article said it's a good idea because he has such great connections with people in Tallahassee, with people in DC, and with big law firms around the country. 01:02:08.239 --> 01:02:11.119 And he can probably raise a lot of money. 01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:17.920 My responses were one, he has not, he's at another law school in Florida right now. 01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:19.519 He's never raised a dime. 01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:23.679 He never raised a dime for the law school that I mean the university. 01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:27.199 He's never raised any money for his law school. 01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:29.760 He's never, so there's no indication. 01:02:29.920 --> 01:02:35.440 Let me ask you, Madam President, would you hire him in your development department with his resume that he's never

raised money before? 01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:40.000 Number two, let's assume he can raise a lot of money for the law school. 01:02:40.239 --> 01:02:44.480 Let me say to you this, say this to you, Madam President, with great respect. 01:02:44.800 --> 01:02:48.000 Money cannot give you a good name. 01:02:48.159 --> 01:02:54.960 Money cannot remove the stain and stench from his name and by reference by yours too. 01:02:55.119 --> 01:02:56.320 Because you appointed him. 01:02:56.480 --> 01:02:59.840 You did not know of the stench of corruption when you appointed him. 01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:00.719 You know now. 01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:15.360 And you owe it to your high, highly respected and rising law school to put him on administrative leave and not have this stench infect the school because the longer the stench is there, the harder it is to get out the odor. 01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:20.480 Now, stench of corruption, that's the name also of the op-ed that you penned in the Miami Herald. 01:03:20.639 --> 01:03:23.760 Um, why did you why did you take it to the Herald? 01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:26.000 Well, because it's our local newspaper. 01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:29.360 It's because it's the paper that most people read. 01:03:29.599 --> 01:03:34.960 Uh, I also it's also in the Daily Business Review of the Business People and the Lawyers Read. 01:03:35.199 --> 01:03:40.559 It's also in the um ABA journal that all the lawyers in America and judges of America read. 01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:46.639 It's uh in the obviously I had to put it as a black man, I had to put it in some black period articles too. 01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:51.599 The South Florida Times, uh uh it's gonna be in the West Side Gazette and the Miami Times. 01:03:51.760 --> 01:04:06.559 Look, I take no pleasure at all at exposing the political interference with the search process, and I take no pleasure in exposing the corruption that a federal judge had identified. 01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:08.800 And there's no credibility issues here. 01:04:09.039 --> 01:04:31.599 What's in the case, what's in that court file, and what should be, but's not in the case file, is a basis alone for you to conclude that this was collusion between Trump's civil lawyers representing the plaintiffs and Trump's former criminal defense lawyer, acting attorney general representing defendants, who never defended the case. 01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:36.880 There are a lot of lawyers that are listening to this right now and who will listen to it in the future. 01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:49.360 Have you ever had a case, a regular car crash case, that you were able to get a settlement, let's say of$100,000, filing no motions, no discovery, no depositions, nothing. 01:04:49.599 --> 01:04:58.960 And he can get$1.776 billion in the and how many of you won a case, got a settlement when you filed after the statute of limitations? 01:04:59.920 --> 01:05:05.360 How many of you got a case where you asked for a lot of money and the other side did not defend? 01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:06.239 No way. 01:05:06.559 --> 01:05:09.679 This is United States of America. 01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:19.840 No claim of immunity, no claim of of uh of uh qualified immunity, no claim on the statute of limitations running, no papers filed at all. 01:05:20.079 --> 01:05:27.119 If that that's one of the biggest frauds on the court in my time as a lawyer, and that's 53 years. 01:05:27.440 --> 01:05:31.679 What's the response been from the university, faculty, students, public to your to your writing? 01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:45.679 From the from the uh leadership of the university to cricket's I think they don't they do not know what to do because this is it's obviously wrong and it's even easily provable. 01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:53.440 You know, when you start off with the fact that you excuse me, sir, excuse me, attorney, you must be the greatest lawyer in the history of the world. 01:05:53.599 --> 01:05:59.519 You got$1.776 million dollars without filing a piece of paper in a case where. 01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:05.199 Statute of limitations run without signing the complaint, without getting permission to be in the court. 01:06:05.760 --> 01:06:06.800 You got it, you got it. 01:06:06.960 --> 01:06:08.800 No other lawyer has been this great. 01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:10.000 It's collusion. 01:06:10.320 --> 01:06:11.679 It's obvious collusion. 01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:13.920 But you know, he's Trump's lawyer. 01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:18.239 You know, he's Stephen Miller's vice president of America First. 01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:25.519 And so uh, you know, I said he was a DEI hire, didn't earn it, you know. 01:06:25.760 --> 01:06:28.800 So he's think about it, he's appointed. 01:06:28.880 --> 01:06:37.039 Is that any worse than the appointment of Bondi or Patel or Higgs or the president himself? 01:06:37.199 --> 01:06:38.239 None of them earned it. 01:06:38.639 --> 01:06:41.039 I mean, Trump earned it in the sense that he won the election. 01:06:41.119 --> 01:06:42.960 Yeah, I gotta, I gotta take that back. 01:06:43.119 --> 01:06:47.840 He won the election fair and square, even though he will not admit when he lost the election. 01:06:48.079 --> 01:06:54.800 So how long will Daniel Epstein be the interim dean, or is interim just like a uh fig's leaf and it's actually just he's the dean? 01:06:55.039 --> 01:07:02.159 Yeah, well he well, one of the reasons that I think they appointed him interim dean, because the dean's position was open. 01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:05.280 We did not have a search committee for an interim dean. 01:07:05.440 --> 01:07:06.000 Right, right. 01:07:06.239 --> 01:07:17.360 You know, I think they kind of put the fig leaf on, figuring that we know they but they they knew that there was some problems out there with the case, but the judge had not made a decision. 01:07:17.519 --> 01:07:21.920 And so they put the fig leaf on because, you know, you can easily remove the fig leaf. 01:07:22.079 --> 01:07:24.159

But I think I do not know this. 01:07:24.320 --> 01:07:29.039 I don't know whether the White House or Miller or anybody's putting pressure on them. 01:07:29.199 --> 01:07:33.039 But I just know that they're in what I call a mega lemma. 01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:35.679 You know, uh, we normally deal with D lemma. 01:07:36.159 --> 01:07:39.760 A mega lemma is one big hell of a problem. 01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:54.079 But for the universe, for the law school and for this fine young law school and for the universe itself, for the president's reputation and the provost's reputation, I hope that they have the courage to do the right thing. 01:07:54.320 --> 01:07:59.199 You know, and you know, we're not asking them to do anything that would prevent them from saving face. 01:07:59.440 --> 01:08:00.880 We're not saying fire him. 01:08:01.119 --> 01:08:10.400 We're not even saying don't pay him, put him on administrative leave, which would happen to anybody else in the law school who was not President Trump's lawyer. 01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:12.800 And then give him a chance to clear his name. 01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:13.760 Let him get paid. 01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:22.159 Clear his name, clear his name, then it's your decision whether the stench has been removed in terms of corruption and he's qualified enough for you. 01:08:22.239 --> 01:08:28.000 He's not qualified enough for the search committee, but if qualified enough for you, fine, put him back in there. 01:08:28.239 --> 01:08:32.000 So I hope that the president uh will really. 01:08:32.399 --> 01:08:36.399 I believe that she look, I put, I've always said she loves the FIU. 01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:37.119 She does. 01:08:37.279 --> 01:08:39.760 She's a double FIU graduate. 01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:43.039 She, her, her children graduated from FIU. 01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:44.159 She loves the school. 01:08:44.319 --> 01:08:45.520 There's no doubt about that. 01:08:45.600 --> 01:08:47.439 I'm not saying there's pressure on her. 01:08:47.520 --> 01:08:52.800 I didn't say that, but I don't think she'd have made this decision without external forces. 01:08:52.960 --> 01:08:55.920 And her history has shown she's never done it before. 01:08:56.239 --> 01:09:00.079 Well, HT, thank you for joining on the podcast and for speaking truth to power. 01:09:00.239 --> 01:09:01.119 Please keep it up. 01:09:01.279 --> 01:09:04.239 Your students, your community, and your university are the better for it. 01:09:04.319 --> 01:09:04.800 Thank you. 01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:07.359 Thank you for having me and keep up the good work. 01:09:07.520 --> 01:09:07.920 Bye. 01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:14.800 Well, that was a great interview. 01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:15.680 Oh, thanks. 01:09:15.920 --> 01:09:18.159 All right, Spencer, we're gonna turn to our mailbag. 01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:21.199 This week's question is potentially contentious. 01:09:21.439 --> 01:09:23.439 Ooh, potentially contentious. 01:09:25.199 --> 01:09:25.680 Yeah, okay. 01:09:25.920

--> 01:09:27.680 You started the episode with pernicious. 01:09:27.920 --> 01:09:28.800 Get out of here. 01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:37.119 Uh if a school is competing in their own tournament, should their alums ever be allowed to judge their own school's trials? 01:09:37.359 --> 01:09:38.079 Spencer? 01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:38.720 Ooh. 01:09:39.840 --> 01:09:40.079 Ooh. 01:09:40.479 --> 01:09:43.680 That is a that is a potentially contentious issue there. 01:09:43.840 --> 01:09:48.000 I mean, I think best practice is that you wouldn't compete in your own tournament. 01:09:48.159 --> 01:09:49.760 That that is a preferred practice. 01:09:49.920 --> 01:09:51.199 I understand that's not the hypothetical. 01:09:51.279 --> 01:09:53.039 I'm just laying the groundwork for my further answer. 01:09:53.439 --> 01:10:03.520 I I I it's a little like I don't know how you I don't know how the rule could be against that, because if the team is running the competition and they've decided that they are going to compete in it, they can also decide whoever they want is going to judge. 01:10:03.680 --> 01:10:06.640 So we would be kind of threading a bit of a needle here. 01:10:06.880 --> 01:10:16.319 Um I think if you're hosting the competition and you are having your team compete, you absolutely would not want to have them judged by your own alumni. 01:10:16.399 --> 01:10:20.640 I think that would be something you would want to avoid for all reasons, including any appearance of some propriety. 01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:21.680 Should it be the rule? 01:10:21.840 --> 01:10:29.920 Um again, I don't know how it could be a rule, but I think it is by far a best practice for everybody involved, if indeed the team needs to compete in that competition. 01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:31.279 I understand the reasons for that too. 01:10:31.439 --> 01:10:33.760 Um so my answer is I don't know how we could make it a rule. 01:10:33.920 --> 01:10:35.119 Well, I mean I think it should be one. 01:10:35.520 --> 01:10:44.159 In terms of whether we could, presumably that would be the case at a tournament where the school is hosting on behalf of an organization, like on behalf of Tyler or on behalf of AAJ. 01:10:44.399 --> 01:10:45.840 Oh, it's broadened out, sure. 01:10:46.000 --> 01:10:46.159 Yeah. 01:10:46.479 --> 01:10:47.600 Or on behalf of TOC. 01:10:47.760 --> 01:10:48.000 Yeah. 01:10:48.159 --> 01:10:48.479 Yeah. 01:10:48.720 --> 01:10:49.119 Yes. 01:10:49.279 --> 01:10:50.000 That should be the rule. 01:10:50.159 --> 01:10:50.800 That should be the rule. 01:10:50.880 --> 01:10:56.159 I mean, although it's unusual that you would compete in your own NTC regionals if I can continue being annoying about this. 01:10:56.319 --> 01:11:00.159 Um, and certainly I've, you know, when we hosted TOC, we didn't compete in it. 01:11:00.239 --> 01:11:02.720 And I know that there's reasons why that you can do that now. 01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:14.479 But I, but yes, if you're going to, no, I do not think you should allow be allowed to um have your own alumni judge um in the context of one of these open competitions or other competitions you're hosting on behalf of somebody else. 01:11:14.560 --> 01:11:17.680 As for your own competition, it'd be a great idea, but can't make the rule. 01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:19.039 Long-winded answer, Justin. 01:11:19.119 --> 01:11:20.079 I think I covered all the territory. 01:11:20.159 --> 01:11:20.640 What did I miss? 01:11:20.800 --> 01:11:21.279 You did great. 01:11:21.439 --> 01:11:21.920 You did great. 01:11:22.159 --> 01:11:22.800 Yeah, thanks. 01:11:22.960 --> 01:11:25.039 Uh I I I I agree almost 100%. 01:11:25.520 --> 01:11:30.239 I think that in a perfect world, uh, a school would never compete in its own tournament. 01:11:30.399 --> 01:11:34.720 Um, I think that because of budgetary constraints, that it's sometimes not possible. 01:11:34.880 --> 01:11:36.159 Like I'll speak on behalf of my school. 01:11:36.239 --> 01:11:40.960 I mean, one of the reasons why we will host regional sometimes is to save the money from traveling. 01:11:41.119 --> 01:11:44.239 Like we just don't have the the budget to go to extra things. 01:11:44.319 --> 01:11:46.000 And if we did, we would we would do that. 01:11:46.159 --> 01:11:58.159 Um but in a world where a school is going to compete at an event that they are hosting, uh, I think it's really important to make sure that the judge assignment is not just fair, but appears fair. 01:11:58.399 --> 01:12:06.960 Because once you once once there's a loss of confidence in in who's judging and the the fairness, then that really reduces the confidence in the outcome. 01:12:07.119 --> 01:12:12.399 Um so I I think I would I would say there's different levels of who should never be judging those trials. 01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:21.840 I mean, the the inner circle of of people who should not be judging a school's trials are their trial team alums uh of any recent vintage, um probably ever. 01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:26.000 Uh and then next next down from that, we're talking recent alums. 01:12:26.159 --> 01:12:34.319 Um, and then I I I I wonder though, at the margins, I mean, for example, at Berkeley, suppose you had somebody who graduated in 1995. 01:12:34.479 --> 01:12:34.640 Right. 01:12:34.880 --> 01:12:39.439 Realistically, that person has no connection with your trial team, right? 01:12:39.600 --> 01:12:40.640 They weren't on your trial team. 01:12:40.720 --> 01:12:42.560 You probably didn't have a trial team in 1995. 01:12:42.640 --> 01:12:42.720 Right. 01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:46.640 To the extent that anybody was doing trial out classes, they're taught by other people. 01:12:46.800 --> 01:12:51.279 There was no sort of clear Berkeley method that was being passed down from generation to generation. 01:12:51.520 --> 01:12:56.720 And those folks, to the extent they were doing trial team, it was under completely different leadership, probably had no leadership. 01:12:56.960 --> 01:13:01.920 So that's really different than a school with a historical um trial training method. 01:13:02.000 --> 01:13:03.680 And I don't mean that those schools are doing anything wrong. 01:13:03.840 --> 01:13:09.359 In fact, it's because they're doing so many things well that they have that legacy of technique. 01:13:09.439 --> 01:13:12.159 Uh, but I think it's probably different uh depending on the school. 01:13:12.319 --> 01:13:16.880 That being said, the safest method is just to try to have no alums if possible on your panel. 01:13:17.039 --> 01:13:22.399 Uh I'm looking at the envelope here and it it says JBB from SoCal. 01:13:22.720 --> 01:13:22.880 Oh. 01:13:23.119 --> 01:13:23.840 Sent this in. 01:13:24.079 --> 01:13:27.119 So isn't was it easy to help you to like just talk it through? 01:13:27.279 --> 01:13:28.960 I mean, what was the like why you know? 01:13:29.119 --> 01:13:30.000 That's kind of weird, right? 01:13:30.239 --> 01:13:31.439 That that question was not from me. 01:13:31.600 --> 01:13:32.239 Oh, it wasn't. 01:13:32.319 --> 01:13:32.479 Okay. 01:13:32.560 --> 01:13:32.800 Got it. 01:13:32.880 --> 01:13:33.439 Yep, got it. 01:13:34.079 --> 01:13:34.239 Yep. 01:13:34.960 --> 01:13:35.119 Yeah. 01:13:35.680 --> 01:13:35.840 Okay. 01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:40.079 Well, whoever, whoever sent it in, thank you very much for that very insightful question. 01:13:40.159 --> 01:13:40.800 We appreciate it. 01:13:41.039 --> 01:13:41.439 We do. 01:13:42.000 --> 01:13:46.800 Good luck to the 48 All-Star teams competing this weekend and 16 competing the weekend after. 01:13:46.880 --> 01:13:48.159 Uh, we will see everybody next week. 01:13:48.399 --> 01:13:48.880 See you folks. 01:13:48.960 --> 01:13:49.840 Good luck. 01:13:50.319 --> 01:13:53.119 Unscripted Direct is a production of Justin and Spencer. 01:13:53.199 --> 01:13:55.279 We're mixed and edited by the Sam Chase. 01:13:55.439 --> 01:14:02.399 If you're not on the lister but want to get our blast email each episode, sign up at www.unscripteddirect.com. 01:14:02.720 --> 01:14:05.600 Follow us on social media as follows Instagram. 01:14:05.680 --> 01:14:07.039 We're at unscripted direct. 01:14:07.279 --> 01:14:10.399 Facebook is facebook.com slash unscripteddirect. 01:14:10.479 --> 01:14:12.720 And Twitter is at unscripted.