บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Episode 159: Green Tea Caffeine Depends On Farming, Processing, And How You Brew It

the what they used to call the gray funnel line uh during the Cold War era when all we really did was run into Russian ship anchorages and take pictures of them and their radar installations, as they did with us. 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:38.319 So as a sort of Mexican standoff, if I can use that. 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:44.879 That's not a very good geographical analogy, given the fact that it was us versus them, but uh yes, very peaceful, really. 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:45.120 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:46.079 Gray funnel. 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:47.120 I don't know the the reference. 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:50.560 Uh because every um warship is painted gray. 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:54.639 Uh, you know, instead of PO or whatever they used to be known as the Gray Funnel like that. 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:55.680 Oh, okay, I understand. 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:56.000 Okay. 00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:03.360 So you you've done quite a bit of experience in the tea industry, John, and and you've been to a number of well, you've been all around the world uh dealing. 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:07.120 I I believe I heard you talking about being in Sri Lanka and a number of other countries. 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:09.360 What sort of countries have you had experience in? 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:20.240 Well, I've uh spent uh quite a bit of time in Sri Lanka, India, various countries in Africa, Kenya, Malawi, Uganda, Tanzania, uh, China. 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:22.879 I've done a lot of business in there, and Vietnam. 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:25.120 Vietnam was uh a bit of a coup. 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:30.800 You know, right at the end of the real communist regime, uh there was a lot of controls. 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:40.000 Um the factories are owned by the communist government, and the fields were smallholder plantations, which actually was a very good setup uh for us at the time. 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:41.839 But um anyway, things have changed. 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:43.519 Well, very much so, yeah. 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:49.360 So w what countries did you find uh the most interesting or the and what sort of blends did you get at the various countries? 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:55.519 Aaron Ross Powell, Well, I think that um those with very variable topography are the ones that I find most interesting. 00:06:55.680 --> 00:07:03.199 Because just like wine, uh tea is affected by slope, by soil, by climate, uh by the planting stock. 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:07.120 So Sri Lanka is an extremely variable of origin. 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:13.759 You know, it has this spine of mountains that runs basically north to south, if you will. 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:20.720 And so the southwest and northeast monsoons that affect it give you two very different seasons. 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:32.240 One of them in the east giving you sort of bright citrus uh teas, and the other on the west giving you juicy, thicker, um berry-ish teas, if you will. 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:32.480 Trevor

Burrus, Jr. 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:38.720 Well, I have to tell you, John, that uh Sri Lanka was probably the the the best-tasting tea that I've had. 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:45.360 It was um um gold tips or silver tips that I got from a company called Zesta in Sri Lanka. 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:48.720 And when I find people are going there, I ask them to pick me up some of the Zesta. 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:51.040 Uh actually silver tips are fine. 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:56.639 So what's the difference between a gold tip, a silver tip, and a what is a gold tip and a silver tip tea? 00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:58.720 So I mean, really, gold tip and silver tip. 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:04.160 I mean a tip is basically the unfurled leaf, the new growth at the top of the bush. 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:08.560 I mean, you know, all quality tea is usually produced from the top two leaves in a bud. 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:13.040 But if you just pluck that unfurled leaf, that is the tip. 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:18.079 And depending on what you do with it, it'll either be silver tip or gold tip. 00:08:18.319 --> 00:08:24.879 So gold tip is really one that has been subjected to, along with leaf for the most part, to an oxidation process. 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:33.120 So you've actually produced some tannins which have coloured to that tip rather than the silver tip, which is usually an air-deried uh process. 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:49.360 So there's absolutely there's not there's no forced oxidation and it's totally removed from the leaf, so that there's none of that uh sort of tannin or the rubigen uh production which which can stain or dye the the tip. 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:52.159 Now, is does that affect the flavor at all, the tannins? 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:55.919 Uh yes, it I mean, uh usually it's a bodybuilder. 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:04.159 They're not really tannins, they're theorubagins, the that we call them tannins because they they were used in tanning, but they're not tannins. 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:04.480 Okay. 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:24.399 But yes, they are a red coloration, and their main qualities for uh tea are in bodybuilding, if you will, balance, smoothness, um, whereas the less oxidized material, what what we generically call flavanols, are, as the name suggests, giving you the flavor, the brightness, and the astringency of the cup. 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:25.360 Oh, okay. 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:33.840 So yeah, it it it was uh just and I happened to pick it up at the airport in Colombo, and I've been trying to find some uh other individuals that are there. 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:40.879 But you've obviously, with your experience, would have a considerable amount of teas from all around the world that would be comparable to that, would you not? 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:45.360 Um, you know, I haven't tasted that particular one, so I can't I can't say. 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:52.720 But to be honest, silver tips are not my favorite tea, but then I like that, you know, maybe I've not got the palate that most people have got. 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:56.000 I've I've been I was dragged up by my parents. 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:57.440 That's very rude to my parents. 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:02.000 I was dragged up on, you know, meaty teas that you could stand your spoon up in. 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:15.840 And uh, frankly speaking, that's my go-to, is you know, uh a thick, balanced Sam tea or or one of those juicy dimbler teas from Sri Lanka, uh, rather than the the lighter ones. 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:19.600 So the lighter ones give extraordinary joy when you do cut them. 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:19.919 Right. 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:35.519 Um, but if I was to choose, I'd go for an Uvo or Udusalawa, which are those eastern provinces, and really not a leaf tea at all, I'd go for a BOP or a BOPF, because they will give you strength and flavor at the same time. 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:40.159 Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.: B-O-P, B-O-P-S- So broken orange peco, broken orange, peco phanags. 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:44.000 They all are basically T nomenclature only describing a leaf. 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:55.919 So when someone, for instance, if you go into a shop and look for a first flush Dargelin, you hear SFTG F O P1, actually it tells you nothing about the liquor at all, only describes the leaf. 00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:56.559 Okay. 00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:04.639 So I well, that's way over, and I'm sure my listeners are wondering more details about all that sort of stuff, which is good. 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:15.039 But in Sri Lanka, they had all these uh tea stores on a regular in Colombo, uh, when I was in, that's the capital city, and they had all these tea stores that I had them on a regular basis. 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:19.919 Um the tea stores around the world, is it is it this is something that's pretty normal? 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:23.200 Tea is a regular drunk in a lot of case in a lot of countries. 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:32.879 It's well, i i it's it's interesting because uh Sri Lanka actually used to rely on Russia for its business, Russia and the Middle East. 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:37.919 But Russia, it uh Russia used never to pack their own teas. 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:40.000 So Sri Lanka actually did it for them. 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:40.320 Okay. 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:43.840 And so they built this value-added industry. 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:51.519 Um and then eventually Russia went away because they said, hey, why are we giving money to the Sri Lankans when we can do it ourselves? 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:57.919 And suddenly the large uh CPG companies like Unilever got in there and started packing tea there. 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:06.159 So the Sri Lankans basically started exporting very successfully to other regions around the world value-added tea. 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:08.480 So they are fairly unique in that. 00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:13.279 Every country aspires to have their trade structure, if you

will. 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:26.639 But the majority of them actually sell their tea as bulk and you know, through auctions, and then they get shipped off to a consuming country where they're blended and packed into whatever format is popular there. 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:26.879 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:32.159 So when they sell it in bulk, when when you say bulk, I mean our listeners would wonder what size bulk means. 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:46.879 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So bulk is normally, I mean, today, uh I say something that f it would go in a large paper sack, um, which is basically one and a half meters by about a meter wide by 30 centimeters deep. 00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:52.399 And if you put a teabag cut tea in there, you'd get between 50 and 70 kilos of tea. 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:52.720 Okay. 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:59.519 If you're looking at leaf tea, you'd probably be somewhere in the region of 25 to 40 uh kilos of tea. 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:06.159 So and and so you're looking at at basically a ton of tea on a pallet and usually shipped out in 40-foot containers. 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:10.559 So you're looking at 20 pallets, 20 tons of tea going at once. 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:13.039 So, yeah. 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:17.840 So the companies you're dealing with and working with, those are the sorts of volumes of tea that you're looking at. 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:18.480 Yeah. 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:33.679 I mean, uh I mean, at companies small, but I mean, for instance, the company whose factory we're sitting in at the moment, uh, Van Rieth, would was the largest import-export in the world, and one that I worked for. 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:39.279 And you know, we'd be doing two, three million kilos a year in each office, you know. 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:40.559 So uh yeah. 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:41.840 It's quite a bit of tea. 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:42.879 A lot of cups of tea. 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:43.279 Yeah. 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:48.799 So when people are thinking bulk, it's not quite what it the level that the average listener would listen to. 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:49.919 Yeah, yeah. 00:13:50.720 --> 00:14:03.919 Okay, so John, uh some of the questions we want to ask you about um that I get questions about, and the reason that I brought you on to the podcast again was the content of green tea uh caffeine levels. 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:10.799 Can can you just kind of elaborate on how it's determined and how uh the caffeine levels may vary in green tea? 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:11.519 Yeah. 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:22.000 So caffeine is produced naturally is naturally occurring in the leaf, but it can be accelerated via the use of nitrogen fertilizers, Frankie. 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:22.639 Okay. 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:36.559 So uh, you know, for instance, in Japan where land is scarce, they need to use a lot of fertilizer fertilizers to get the to satisfy the demand that they have for their teeth. 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:42.879 And so those teas will naturally have a slightly higher caffeine level than some of the others. 00:14:43.120 --> 00:15:04.799 Um and then with respect to bioavailability, if you will, green tea will always give you greater bioavailability of caffeine than black tea, because in black tea, uh during that oxidation process, or oolong tea, during the oxidation process, you're complexing, you're a adding the caffeine to a long chain molecule. 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:05.120 Okay. 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.120 And the the bigger that molecule is, the less soluble it is. 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:21.679 So when you're making a cup of tea, the caffeine, the free caffeine, will come out very quickly because it's a small molecule, but it may take longer or hotter water to bring out uh other. 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:30.559 So one of the ways, if you're looking with any tea to reduce caffeine content is trying cold brewing. 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:31.120 Really? 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:42.080 Because cold brewing, you know, you're lowering the solubility, uh the coefficient of solubility of the of uh of water, i.e., you know, the colder it is, the it it's like squeezing a sponge. 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:46.320 It it has less space in the water to absorb any nutrients. 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:46.799 Right. 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:52.879 Um so it will take out all the small stuff, all the flavor, but it won't take out the large molecules. 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:57.840 So if you're dealing with a tea, a black tea in particular, you cold brew it. 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:00.559 You know, you're not going to take out too much of that caffeine. 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:08.480 But with green tea, you nearly always get a sufficient dose of caffeine um uh brewing it either way. 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:17.279 Yeah, we're we're looking uh for the uh uh cach uh health and wellness, as I mentioned to you before, uh potential high caffeine level. 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:19.600 Because I do rarely get individuals. 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:22.399 Most people come in and say, does this have caffeine? 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:23.919 Because they don't want caffeine now. 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:27.600 Um but I do get the uh individual that says I need my morning caffeine. 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:31.519 So we're looking at, and and you providing me with uh Japanese blend, I believe. 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:40.240 Yeah, and and and uh the the blend that you have is you know, we're not only putting green tea leaf in there, we're putting matcha in there. 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:40.559 Okay. 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:49.200 And the beauty about the matcha is you uh there, because it's uh microground powder, you're ingesting when I say powder, it's powdered leaf. 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.000 It's just in case someone thinks that when I say powder, oh, it's a chemical. 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:52.720 No, it isn't. 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:55.919 It's just leaf that's been finely ground. 00:16:56.159

--> 00:17:03.840 And the beauty about that is that you're not just brewing it, you're putting it into suspension in the cup, and then you're ingesting the whole leaf. 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.119 So you're getting the total benefit uh of everything in that leaf. 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:15.599 Polyphenols, you know, the antioxidant content that that brings, plus you're ingesting all the caffeine that's in that uh that is in that production. 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:20.559 Aaron Powell So does matcha effectively dissolve or is it just No, it it it sits in suspension. 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:20.960 Okay. 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:26.319 But I mean, because it is i it so it's uh like a colloidal suspension and then you're drinking it. 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:37.440 That's why it looks um it you know, if you see people whisking matcha in a traditional way, that is to put it into suspension so that you uh drink it and enjoy it full benefit. 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:37.680 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.599 I imagine it's very much so matcha is basically powdered green tea, correct? 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:58.400 Yes, it's a it's uh it's a tea process where they make a uh uh uh very special green tea where they called tensure, which is like a flat-leafed tea that is de-veined because you have to take the veins out prior to the uh the grinding process. 00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:05.519 And then that uh tensure is ground, stone ground usually, through a mill, which is a very, very slow process. 00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:06.720 It produces very little. 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:08.559 I mean, the productivity is very slow. 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:15.039 So when you go into one of these mature factories, they have 30, 40, 50 mills working at once. 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:15.519 Really? 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:18.079 Yeah, to produce anything uh significant. 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:18.319 Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:24.400 So basically it's now realistic to take your own green tea to powder it right down in a grinder of some sort. 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:28.880 Aaron Ross Powell You'll never get it to you'll never get it to magic and it'll be gritty. 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:29.279 Okay. 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:29.759 Okay. 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:33.200 So you'll you'll just get somewhat of a fine ground sand. 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:33.440 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:33.920 Oh, yeah. 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:43.519 So and I know what's kind of like uh Chaga as a reference here is that the larger the pieces are um of chaga, the longer they have to be exposed to water to extract the benefit. 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:51.039 So the chaga uh when it gets down to a powdery stage or the the the level we use there requires the least amount of time to extract the benefit. 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:52.960 And it would be the same with the matcha, correct? 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:55.119 That's that's that's that's totally right. 00:18:55.279 --> 00:19:02.400

I mean, with matcha, you are in a way you're not even you don't even have to wait for it to infuse because you're going to ingest the whole thing anyway. 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:03.759 But you're absolutely right, Jerry. 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:08.319 I mean, you know, if you think about a large particle, it's like leaf tea to teabag tea. 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:08.480 Right. 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:10.799 Everyone goes, oh, teabag tea, it must be the dust off the floor. 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:11.519 No, it's not. 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:20.559 It's produced exact from exactly the same bush at the same time, but the leaf, when it r when it's rolled, fractures into different particle sizes. 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:30.960 And then the the producer uh uses a series of sifts to produce all these different grades from the SFTG FOP1 all the way down to the BOP and the BOPF or the BOPD. 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:48.000 Now, depending on the obviously the smaller you go, the more surface area you have to be infused with by or come into contact with the water or whatever medium you're infusing it into, and therefore you're going to get a more rapid, um, uh rapid extraction. 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.720 But by the same time, you're not going to get such a such a deliberate infusion. 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:52.960 Right. 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:54.640 It's going to happen all at once. 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:58.720 So, you know, when people say, oh, brew three to five minutes according to taste. 00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:04.400 Well, with a smaller particle, yeah, you know, trying to the difference between three and five minutes is massive. 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.200 Whereas with a leaf, yes, it's a gradual process. 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:13.359 So you really can say, no, no, no, I prefer a two and a half minute brew with an SFTG FOP1. 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:17.680 It's very difficult to do that with a with a BOPD, with a dust grade T. 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:20.000 So BOPD is a dust grade T? 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:21.759 It's a broken orange peco dust. 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:28.400 Now, so everything, you know, Canadians think but you know, we I used to work for a packing company, right? 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:35.920 And we had several people who, after buying orange peco on the shelf, would complain that our orange peco didn't have orange in it. 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:46.400 Um but actually orange peco is just a leaf nomenclature, and orange came from the House of Orange, the Royal Dutch household. 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:46.640 Okay. 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:51.759 It goes back to the 1500s when tea was uh was brought over from China. 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:59.279 But because it was a beverage, um, it was not allowed off the ship by customs and excise until it was brewed. 00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:06.720 So it was actually brewed in barrels and maybe left there until the next visit, which could have been a week away. 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:14.160 So here's tea that's already made a salty voyage by Clipper to Europe. 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:20.240 Then it's been brewed in barrels of, I don't know, variable nature, I'd say. 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:26.240 And it's been brewed and left on on ship to await these customs officials. 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:31.200 And then it's carted off to a tea house or coffee house at the time to be brewed. 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:33.039 So the flavor was not great. 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:33.440 Right. 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:39.039 So the only thing that people could really look at was they'd look at the leaf and say, oh, that's a good quality tea. 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:47.279 Um I think that, you know, flavoring teas like L Greys, et cetera, all came about because the tea tasted so horrendous, you had to cover it up. 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:51.039 It's a bit like, you know, you always question perfume, you know. 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:54.799 Well, the advent of that was because of the lack of bath. 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:56.480 And tea had the same issue. 00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.680 Yeah, so orange pico tea has no orange in it. 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:00.319 No orange. 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:02.000 It's just for the house of orange. 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:15.359 It it basically is a quality nomenclature of the leaf, saying that, and if certain grades, as long as they have an O in it, then it means that it is a quality main grade leaf. 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:15.680 Okay. 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:17.759 Usually from orthodox manufacture. 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:18.160 Okay. 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:24.079 After B O P D, which is the lowest one, then comes DUS, Dust2, et cetera. 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:27.519 And you know that it's just D, D2, BMF. 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:33.680 They don't carry the O because beyond a certain grade, they're saying, no, it doesn't deserve to be called quality D. 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:34.400 Okay. 00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:49.680 Back in 2016, Frank and I had a vision to amass the single largest database of musky angling education material anywhere in the world. 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:55.680 Our dream was to harness the knowledge of this amazing community and share it with passionate anglers just like you. 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:03.440 Thus, the Ugly Pike Podcast was born and quickly grew to become one of the top fishing podcasts in North America. 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:09.599 Step into the world of angling adventures and embrace the thrill of the catch with the Ugly Pike Podcast. 00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:17.440 Join us on our quest to understand what makes us different as anglers and to uncover what it takes to go after the infamous fish of 10,000 casts. 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:25.680 The Ugly Pike Podcast isn't just about fishing, it's about creating a tight-knit community of passionate anglers who share the same love for the sport. 00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:31.839 Through laughter, through camaraderie, and an unwavering spirit of adventure, this podcast will bring

people together. 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:35.119 Subscribe now and never miss a moment of our angling adventures. 00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:36.799 Tight lines, everyone. 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:42.559 Find Ugly Pike now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. 00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:59.920 Okay, we're with Bev here in Lindsay. 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.640 And Bev, you've got some experience with Chaga that you'd like to share with some people. 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:06.079 Tell us uh two stories. 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:07.759 Start with your father's story. 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:08.880 Hi, Jerry. 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:17.680 Um well um my dad had mentioned to me that he was struggling with his blood pressure and he'd gone on meds and it wasn't bringing it down. 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:22.160 He was running around 180, 185, and wasn't enjoying that at all. 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:32.400 And um and so I suggested that he try the chug of tea because I knew some other people that had had good experience with it, and I knew my own experience with it. 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:35.680 He started doing the chug of tea every day. 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:44.720 Um, he stuck it in with his coffee, so he only had to drink one thing a day, and within three weeks he had dropped from 180 to 140, which he was really excited about. 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:51.599 But what it was he was even more excited about was that about three to four weeks after that, he had gone down to 125. 00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:56.319 So we're really grateful for the difference the chaga has made with his blood pressure. 00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.920 And he wasn't doing there wasn't any other medications or changes. 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:00.960 This is the only change? 00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:02.960 No, this was the actually the only shift. 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:06.720 He didn't shift anything diet-wise, physical exercise-wise at all. 00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:09.680 The only thing he added in that he hadn't been doing before was chaga. 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:10.960 And he put it in his coffee, I believe. 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:11.359 I heard you. 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:12.319 And he put it in his coffee. 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:13.200 Very good. 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:14.799 Okay, and you have your own story now. 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:15.920 I have my own story. 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:32.240 So I I started on chaga when I um I met Jerry just as I realized that I was going into a relapse of multiple cirrhosis that I I had not relapsed for approximately 25 years, so I was a little startled about it and wanted to get on it. 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:42.240 And um, so I was in the process of changing a lot of things so that I could um go back into relapse rather than dealing with the MS symptoms. 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:51.279 And so I did change diet and I stopped physical exercise so that my body would have more rest, and I added the chaga in. 00:25:51.519 --> 00:26:22.880 And within within I mean within five days, I noticed that the nerve sensory issues I was having in my legs was already settling down, and within about three weeks I had the strength to walk unassisted again, and I am about three months in now, and um I have um taken a 10-day break from it a couple of times just to, you know, you know, just so that my body, you know, can stay balanced, you know, without it. 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:34.799 But every time I go back on it, I um I can feel the difference in mental clarity and in the way my nerves are communicating, and I'm I'm walking very, very well now. 00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:35.519 Very good. 00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:37.680 Well, thank you very much for sharing your story with us. 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:44.000 No, thanks for thanks for hollering me and asking me to try a free cup that one farmer's market morning. 00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:45.839 Well, I'm glad it's working out for you. 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:46.559 Thanks, Jerry. 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:47.119 Okay. 00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:59.920 We interrupt this program to bring you a special offer from Chaga Health and Wellness. 00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:11.279 If you've listened this far and you're still wondering about this strange mushroom that I keep talking about, and whether you would benefit from it or not, I may have something of interest to you. 00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:21.359 To thank you for listening to the show, I'm going to make trying Chaga that much easier by giving you a dollar off all our Chaga products at checkout. 00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:30.799 All you have to do is head over to our website, Chaga Health and Wellness.com, place a few items in the cart, and check out with the code CANopy. 00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:33.200 C-A-N-O-P-Y. 00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:38.000 If you're new to Chaga, I'd highly recommend the regular Chaga tea. 00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:44.640 This comes with 15 tea bags per package, and each bag gives you around five or six cups of tea. 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:46.240 Hey, thanks for listening. 00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:47.920 Back to the episode. 00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:58.079 So, John, um, there was a couple questions that I also get regarding fertilizers or chemical sprays in the teas, and do they spray the leaves? 00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:04.559 Is that something that people need to worry about when they're uh dealing with teas uh because the leaves have been sprayed to protect them? 00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:08.240 The other thing is um I should have mentioned when we talked about the caffeine. 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:17.920 Caffeine natural is a is basically a way for the plant to uh to deter insects or bugs from from consuming the leaves, correct? 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:19.119 Yeah, absolutely. 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:28.240 I mean, you know, the the only bit of a bush that can really be attacked by insects is that succulent uh unopened leaf. 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:36.000 So it produces this very bitter uh set of compounds, this soup,

that deters them from doing so. 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:45.839 And we know that that works because people have imitated the landing of insects on bushes and measured polyphenol and caffeine content before and after. 00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:46.079 Right. 00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.160 And there's almost immediate reaction. 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:53.519 You know, when I say immediate, I mean within hours, there is a significant increase in those. 00:28:53.680 --> 00:29:00.319 And and and there are the most extraordinary thing I've ever seen, honestly, and I never understood it. 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:10.799 Well, I I understood it afterwards, was the fact that I watched a Taiwanese emigrant in Vietnam spray eggs on his tea bushes. 00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:11.599 Eggs. 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:12.880 Eggs eggs. 00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:14.960 No, eggs, normal eggs. 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:18.559 He we whisked up, I thought what tea tea bushes like breakfast. 00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:20.000 Like chicken eggs. 00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:24.000 And he sprayed it on the bushes uh at uh uh at dusk. 00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:24.480 Right. 00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:31.680 And what he and what he explained to me was that he was that uh what happened was that the eggs attracted insects. 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:32.160 Okay. 00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:36.000 But the insects couldn't get through the egg to the leaf, right? 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:50.000 But because the leaf felt the insects, they increased uh production of uh polyphenol or uh polyphenols and caffeine because they were going into defense mode. 00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:58.160 And then in the in the next day he'd harvest them, and he was making very good, high-quality oolongs out of this leaf. 00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:10.000 I I mean I still wonder who was the first person who came up with that idea and understood the correlation, but but but but you see th this type of activity throughout the tea uh the tea sector. 00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:11.119 So that's that's one thing. 00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:13.279 So insects are not necessarily a bad thing. 00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:13.680 Right. 00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:16.480 Uh, you know, for for a healthy ecosystem, you want them around. 00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:18.319 You just don't want them to attack your tea too much. 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:18.559 Right. 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.440 So, yes, agrochemicals are used in certain places. 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:39.039 Uh if it particularly in humid environments like uh Assam in northeast India, the Brahmaputra Valley, which you know, you're talking talking about temperatures 35 to 40 Celsius, 85% humidity during the season, bugs are going to take eat your leaf. 00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:43.039 So agrochemicals are used, but they're used in very controlled environments. 00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:53.680 I mean, most of these agrochemicals that are sprayed, if they're used at all, um, are sprayed, and then there is a period by which sunlight breaks them

down into their natural constituents, and after that they're plucked. 00:30:53.920 --> 00:31:10.640 However, let's just say that a residue maintains on that leaf and actually survives the processing of tea and the furnace firing of tea afterwards and gets into your tea bag or your loose leaf tea uh on your shelf. 00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:17.119 The fact is that the tr the transference rate of those agrochemicals is very low. 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:31.039 So, you know, first and foremost, the uh CFIA standards, the Canadian food inspection agency inspection agency, uh, maximum residue limits for tea are extremely low, much lower than for fruit and vegetable, for instance. 00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:31.759 Oh, really? 00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:34.559 Yeah, and yet you ingest the whole fruit and vegetable. 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:36.160 And yet no one talks about that. 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:42.160 You know, it's and it's all down to the you know the the the healthy uh the healthy diet plate. 00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:59.359 I mean, you know, if people say 50% of your intake should be fruits or vegetables, then what happens is that 50% of the safe um uh uh uh agricultural residue limit for human physiology is given over to fruits and vegetables. 00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:04.000 And you can imagine that tea uh has a tiny slither at the end of all this. 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:12.400 And so, whereas some fruits and vegetables you see, oh, 10 parts per million a land, et cetera, in tea it'll be 0.01. 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:12.880 Okay. 00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:24.960 You know, so not only is it extremely low and unlikely because people are not using much at all, but also the transference is about, in most of these cases, between two and one percent. 00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:29.359 So 0.01 times 1 percent is what you get. 00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:30.240 So yeah. 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:33.839 But most of your teas are all certified organic, which would not have those materials. 00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:34.960 That's exactly right. 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:43.680 Most of our teas are and if they are not, they come from regions which are not don't have pest issues. 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:50.640 For instance, the whole of East Africa is basically on a plateau of 6,000 feet. 00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:52.400 There isn't a pest issue there. 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:56.000 They don't use uh chemical residues because agrochemicals. 00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:56.559 Okay. 00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:01.519 So and the other question that we get uh John on a regular basis is about the tea bags. 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:06.720 I get people constantly saying, Do you sell this with a bag because I don't want the microplastics? 00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:12.240 Um maybe you can elaborate on that uh just uh a little bit more of your experience with the tea bags. 00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:15.759 Yeah, I mean I can point you to a few uh examples. 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:37.119 I mean, there was this dreadful and very unscientific report put out by uh some Canadian uh scientist about microplastics in teabag teas, which is completely refuted by a much more eminent uh doctor um in the European tea uh uh European Tea Council, uh Dr. 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:43.039 Tim Bond, uh who's who and they did a significant study which showed this to be mainly hoo-ha. 00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:51.200 However, there's no doubt that you know a teabag that is heat sealed, i.e., the two pieces of paper sealed together, right? 00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:55.759 Requires something meltable to hold it together, or glue, if you will. 00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:01.519 And in the old days that was a plastic fiber, if you will, that was made of molecules. 00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:02.000 Yeah. 00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:15.440 Now, however, uh there is there are papers that use PLA, polylactic acid, which is basically, again, a meltable fiber produced from plants, wood, stock, et cetera. 00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:24.559 So the paper that we use is biodegradable, and the meltable fibers come from uh renewable uh pine. 00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:25.119 Right. 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:31.280 So yes, it's still a heat-seedable teabag, but it is biodegradable. 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:37.280 Okay, so so the bags are and you're using a high-quality German teabag, I believe, correct? 00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:48.320 Uh yeah, they're they are produced in this, you know, you can buy teabag paper from a number of different countries, but there are two companies that you can sort of rely on who have been around forever. 00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:53.199 Um this one is a uh is a yeah, it's a German company. 00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:55.840 The the mills uh actually in the UK. 00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:56.480 Okay. 00:34:56.719 --> 00:35:07.119 Um because I know I was I was previously before I uh entered into working with you, John, and uh producing the tea was using a German uh Chinese tea bag. 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:20.480 And I could not get consistency for the bag, uh whether you got the same one all the time, different colors, different sizes, and now I have thousands, uh tens of thousands of tea bags that I can't use because they're the wrong size, the wrong color, and everything else. 00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:25.280 But uh since we've gone with you, we have uh a very high quality and uh it works very well. 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:34.239 So people don't necessarily need to worry about the tea bags like the their because I get, as a matter of fact, yesterday I had two or three individuals ask the same thing. 00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:37.760 Do you do you sell it just loose leaf so I can do my own? 00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:44.000 Because and then I have other people that say they cut the bag to make sure there's no plastics and take the material out and do it that way. 00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:48.800 I mean, the this study that was was kind of haphazard, I believe we'd say. 00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:49.199 Yeah. 00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:56.159 Um was

not very effective and not very uh efficient in doing a quality job on the report has influenced a lot of individuals in this. 00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:59.679 It's nothing from what you I'm hearing here is that people need to worry about. 00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:21.039 No, and I mean, you know, it's I I can't think of a decent analogy, but I mean I'd say that, you know, when I when I look at you know, you're much better off to drink chagra green tea in a bag than not to because of a fear founded on a paper that bears it is not credible. 00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:21.360 Right. 00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:29.519 I mean, you know, it's rather like saying, you know, hey, by the way, people, do you know that there's plastics and therefore, no doubt, microplastics every time you put a seatbelt on. 00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.719 Maybe you shouldn't wear a seatbelt next time you drive on the 401. 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:36.239 This is a you know, you have to take things into context. 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:42.719 And um you know, there are lots of studies that have shown that actually just taking the time. 00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:45.360 Tea is one of those things that takes time. 00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:51.119 It's not coffee, you know, you don't put it into a filter, press a button, oh, come back, get your cover show and go. 00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:51.440 Right. 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:56.559 You have to take time, and it's a deliberate piece of time for yourself. 00:36:56.800 --> 00:37:05.519 You know, even if it is just uh three minutes to boil the kettle, five minutes to steak the tea and sit down, it it it it is quiet time. 00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:13.440 That's as important as it is to uh to ingest those uh vital phytochemicals that you're getting from these natural products. 00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:18.960 I guess that that kind of complements the the discussion of having English tea. 00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:24.880 It's a very quiet time, very private time, and and sort of um uh, you know, just a kind of a break in the day. 00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:26.239 And this adds to it. 00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:26.480 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:27.119 Totally. 00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:37.039 I mean, I I I I probably drink probably more than I should, but I'm but you know, on a weekend I will drink at least six cups of tea. 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.880 And when I say cups, they're not really dainty cups, they're sort of mugs. 00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:41.360 Okay. 00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:47.599 And um, you know, and I'm sure that the biggest benefit I get is just from slowing down. 00:37:47.840 --> 00:38:07.599 Because, you know, with all these things, Jerry, you know, you you you know that whilst these phytochemicals do you good, right you know, you have to drink an awful lot and you have to do it with total responsibility to the rest of your day the rest of your day for it to be meaningful. 00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:08.000 Right. 00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:15.840 But what doesn't

change is that ritual and the ability to slow down and take care of oneself. 00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:17.599 Which is very necessary. 00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:19.199 So one last thing, John. 00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:26.480 Um you mentioned before, and I mentioned a number of people that United Nations took you over to Pakistan to set up the country's tea industry. 00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:37.280 Can you kind of kind of give us some uh elaborate on that and give us some more detail about how uh that came to be and and first of all, what did you do to to help Pakistan with the tea industry there? 00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:39.119 Yeah, so um yeah, thanks. 00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:48.400 Uh so I've been doing jobs for the FAO uh FAO, uh Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations for a while. 00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:50.639 And uh in the tea sector. 00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:50.960 Right. 00:38:51.360 --> 00:39:05.599 Basically, we look at sectors that either have had a tea industry that is founded or have a large tea domestic tea uh consuming populace, but don't produce tea. 00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:05.920 Right. 00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:20.079 And to see whether there is a credible industry opportunity to grow tea, to keep because what we're what we're seeing in a lot of LDTC in least developed developing countries is is the urbanization of populations. 00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:20.400 Right. 00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:31.199 And the trouble with that is that, frankly speaking, the the people are not equipped to urbanize, and what you're dealing with what you're seeing is an increase in poverty as urbanization happens. 00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:42.880 Keeping people on the land uh and keeping them producing their own food uh protects them from inflation, uh from external pressures such as foreign exchange, et cetera, et cetera. 00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:49.440 So tea can help you uh keep people in the countryside. 00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:49.840 Right. 00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:55.199 And it and i in Pakistan, Pakistan is the largest drinker of tea in the world. 00:39:55.519 --> 00:39:55.840 Oh, really? 00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:57.440 And they import it all. 00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:04.239 And they have a uh uh uh uh they have a foreign exchange deficit which is growing daily. 00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:04.559 Right. 00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:10.320 And as their population grows and their demand for tea grows, that is only going to get worse. 00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:18.880 Now Pakistan uh sits right on the, you know, it has it sits on the left-hand edge of the halo of Himalayas there. 00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:19.280 Yes. 00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:24.079 And so it has the right landscape to produce tea. 00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:24.480 Right. 00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:27.119 And it did for a small while, it did. 00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:38.159 It um in fact, when Pakistan was joined, i.e., Bangladesh and uh Pakistan were one nation, if you will, uh they produced their own tea in Bangladesh, in East Pakistan. 00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:49.199 But when partition came, uh obviously West Pakistan or Pakistan today lost all its production because it was sitting the other side of India, okay. 00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:52.960 Which geographically and politically made it a non-starter. 00:40:53.440 --> 00:41:02.000 So they started actually going back to Sri Lanka, drinking Sri Lankan tea, and they drank a lot of it until Kenya came along and Kenya stole the show. 00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:11.519 And Kenya produces a very strong tea, which goes very well with milk to mail to make sort of chime as well, etc. 00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:11.920 Yeah. 00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:14.000 So that is the staple. 00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:30.159 So the idea was really uh in the minds of um the of Pakistan was to emulate that production in their own country and so that they could do uh help mitigate some of this foreign exchange problem. 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:30.480 Right. 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:46.800 The trouble is that these um these highland areas uh don't wouldn't produce a lot of very coloury tea, but it could produce great flavory tea, and we know that from early adventures by Unilever and others who did grow tea there. 00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:50.639 And there are still tea bushes around that, but all the factories are gone. 00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:51.199 Okay. 00:41:51.519 --> 00:42:06.800 So we went back to do a feasibility study uh to see whether they had the the right planting stock there, whether they had the right skill sets there, what it would take to restart this. 00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:07.039 Right. 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:13.280 Everything from where would they get the plant stocks from, uh external investment opportunities. 00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:21.280 They have um the very uh they have a commercial relationship with China, um, which is very strong. 00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:26.320 And the Chinese uh have been very helpful in this enterprise so far. 00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:26.719 Right. 00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:35.840 And so we've been trying to cobble together all the external and internal um opportunities uh to make sense of this. 00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:36.239 Okay. 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:37.840 Uh so the first step's been done. 00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:50.719 The T-board of Pakistan has been uh has been opened in uh KP province, which is the main province in the northeast of Pakistan, where the growing will happen and where most of the traders are. 00:42:50.880 --> 00:43:00.639 So this is hopefully a grassroots uh opportunity for them to take back control of those hinterlands and to produce something that they can all be proud of. 00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:01.679 Very good. 00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:05.599 So now you're going to go back to Pakistan to do more work, are you? 00:43:06.079 --> 00:43:08.000 Inshallah, as they say. 00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:09.920 What does that mean? 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:11.039 God's will. 00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:11.760 Okay. 00:43:11.920 -->

00:43:19.199 Okay, so we so that um it very much depends on what they need next. 00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:19.679 Right. 00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:26.239 Yeah, they do they absolutely need to have external uh consultants in there, right? 00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:27.599 But mainly on the production side. 00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:30.159 And I'm not a you know, I'm not a I'm not a tea planter. 00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:34.880 They need it, they need tea planting experts, they need tea production experts. 00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:48.000 Um but they the mo the biggest problem that a lot of producers make, or producing nations make, is that they think about the employment opportunity first, and that's why they plant tea. 00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:52.239 There is no point doing that unless you understand where is going to be sold. 00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:59.119 You need to know exactly what the desirable end product is before you put up. 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:01.360 Or a spade in the ground. 00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:03.679 If you don't do that, you're doomed to failure. 00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:12.159 And so that's where, frankly speaking, my if you will, vertically integrated history in T uh becomes useful. 00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:20.320 And um and that's where we try and connect the dots all the way up the chain and actually in reverse to make sure that that happens. 00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:21.280 Very good. 00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:24.639 So it looks very promising for Pakistan with the work you're doing. 00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:37.039 I'm going to say not very promising because very promising suggests a uh political atmosphere that is uh that is amenable to everything. 00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:37.440 Right. 00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:52.719 Uh a lack of graft within uh um some of these countries though, graft is is very I remember in Egypt, when I was in Egypt, it was basically the the way income was generated for most of the people there. 00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:58.960 There is look, I'm I'm I'm not suggesting that there shouldn't be or that there can be none. 00:44:59.199 --> 00:44:59.280 Right. 00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:14.480 But what I'm say uh saying is that there needs to be at least controls in place uh to and the books, or if you will, the the the accounts need to address those upfront in order for it to be viable. 00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:15.599 Oh, very good. 00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:15.920 Okay. 00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:18.880 Well, so then John, have you ever heard of Labrador tea? 00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:19.760 Yes, I have. 00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:20.480 You have? 00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:37.440 Have you ever uh because I see I see a significant number of First Nation communities actually when I did some work in the far north, um Fort Severn, which is where Manitoba, Hudson's Bay, and Ontario come together was trading for Labrador tea from that community to other communities that add it. 00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:42.480 And uh I don't know if there's much of an industry in that, but you got me thinking here about things like that. 00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:50.079 How can we uh look at can Ontario teas that potentially could be exported or utilized in Labrador tea might be one of the ones. 00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:58.480 Well, I think that uh look, I uh uh you you know, Jerry, that I I have worked with an indigenous group on uh tea. 00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:20.079 And one of the earliest things I said to them is that really what we should be doing is we should be utilizing uh the ancient knowledge that sits within indigenous peoples and lands to farm particular ingredients and make sure that they uh are at least present in the tea products that we have here. 00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:20.559 Right. 00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:24.559 Um the issues are not simple. 00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:30.000 I mean, you know, one is availability, two is satisfying CFIA, right. 00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:32.159 Um, Canadian Food Inspection Agency, yeah. 00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:33.039 Thank you. 00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:46.559 Um and and and machining that to a practically usable operational raw ingredient, all those things need to be worked out. 00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:48.880 It's not impossible, and I'd love to do it. 00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:53.440 And I, you know, I've I've always imagined that you, and this happens in different parts of the world. 00:46:53.519 --> 00:47:09.360 It happens in Malawi, for instance, where um because there are disparate groups um who all have access to this raw material and understand it, um, it doesn't make sense to put up a production facility in geography A, B, or C. 00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:23.840 But you could have a mobile unit that went around, bought the raw material, processed it right there, and paid the community for that, and then brought that to a central location for packing and et cetera, et cetera. 00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:29.920 So I think there's you know, and I'd love to see uh I'd love to see government funding for that. 00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:35.119 Because uh it it you know there's uh there's money and then there are hills. 00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:35.679 Yeah. 00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:36.639 Very good. 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:39.920 Well, John, we appreciate all the time and answering all the questions. 00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:48.000 Just some uh more information about uh what's happening out there under the canopy and what we can sit back and enjoy a a cup and look around at. 00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:48.719 Excellent. 00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:49.519 Well, thank you, Jerry. 00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:50.559 Always a pleasure. 00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:51.280 Cheers. 00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:52.239 Thanks. 00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:21.280 Now you might know us as the hosts of Canada's favorite fishing show, but now we're hosting a podcast. 00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:22.159 That's right. 00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:28.239 Every Thursday, Ann and I will be right here in your ears, bringing you a brand new episode of Outdoor Journal Radio. 00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:28.719 Hmm. 00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:31.199 Now, what are we gonna talk about for two hours every week? 00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:33.119 Well, you know there's gonna be a lot of fishing. 00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:38.159 I knew exactly where those fish were going to be and how to catch them, and they were easy to catch. 00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:40.000 Yeah, but it's not just a fishing show. 00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:43.599 We're going to be talking to people from all facets of the outdoors. 00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:46.800 From athletes, all the other guys would go golfing. 00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:50.719 Me and Garchomp Turk, and all the Russians would go fishing. 00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:51.840 The scientists. 00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:57.920 Now that we're reforesting or anything, it's the perfect transmission environment for my disease. 00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:04.000 To chefs, if any game isn't cooked properly, marinated for you will taste it. 00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:06.079 And whoever else will pick up the phone. 00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:13.119 Wherever you are, Outdoor Journal Radio seeks to answer the questions and tell the stories of all those who enjoy being outside. 00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:17.599 Find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.