บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ The Comedy Cellar’s Noam Dworman on Money, Free Speech and Living Without Drudgery

last time we were here, I was on your show in, I think it was May, and the following day, I'm on the subway, and someone's looking at me constantly from across the way, and I'm like, am I about to get mugged? 39 00:02:16.195 --> 00:02:20.035 And as he gets off the subway, he says, excuse me, are you Josh Sepps? 40 00:02:20.055 --> 00:02:24.196 And I was like, oh, isn't it great that even my podcast has made me famous in New York? 41 00:02:24.276 --> 00:02:26.277 And he shows me his phone, and it's me on your show. 42 00:02:26.837 --> 00:02:29.059 Well, you got very, very lucky. 43 00:02:29.260 --> 00:02:31.322 No, we have, you know... 44 00:02:32.641 --> 00:02:36.344 It's not huge, but it is actually influential in a certain way. 45 00:02:36.364 --> 00:02:43.870 A lot of, I'm very flattered that a lot of people that I would have, you know, only hoped would ever hear about me, listen to it with some regularity. 46 00:02:43.890 --> 00:02:45.371 Yeah, and you are influential. 47 00:02:45.391 --> 00:02:59.983 I mean, I think you've done an amazing job in the past, I guess, decade to go from being someone who, as far as I was aware, which was not aware of you at all, a person who was behind the scenes, who was essentially a business person in comedy, to being someone who is making a case about... 48 00:03:00.743 --> 00:03:14.632 about what it means to live in a flourishing society, about free speech, about how to get along with each other, about Western civilization, about a whole lot of things that bring a certain community of a certain type of comedian and kind of podcast bro together. 49 00:03:14.873 --> 00:03:16.173 Well, that's nice of you to say. 50 00:03:17.234 --> 00:03:20.276 Can I tell you the answer about why I'm opening the place? 51 00:03:20.336 --> 00:03:20.556 Yeah. 52 00:03:21.197 --> 00:03:22.558 Because it's forcing me to think about it. 53 00:03:22.838 --> 00:03:24.579 So money... 54 00:03:28.572 --> 00:03:34.094 You know, a lot of people have, I think, an unhealthy psychological relationship with money. 55 00:03:34.934 --> 00:03:45.138 But I was raised, my father practically beat it into me that money is for enjoying, for buying things, for living your life. 56 00:03:45.178 --> 00:03:47.179 He used to say, we don't do this for money. 57 00:03:47.239 --> 00:03:48.860 Money is a fortunate byproduct. 58 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:51.741 And he used to tell me why I didn't become a lawyer. 59 00:03:52.301 --> 00:03:54.742 He used to tell me, no, everybody you know. 60 00:03:56.300 --> 00:03:57.161 Living for the weekend. 61 00:03:57.201 --> 00:04:00.384 They can't wait for the weekend because they can't wait for a day off work. 62 00:04:00.464 --> 00:04:03.006 He says, I love to go to work every day. 63 00:04:03.166 --> 00:04:05.088 I hate it when there's no work to do. 64 00:04:05.468 --> 00:04:07.310 So that's the way I've always lived my life. 65 00:04:07.951 --> 00:04:12.915 And so the money from this place, and we're much more successful now than when my father was alive. 66 00:04:12.955 --> 00:04:16.058 Not because I'm a better operator than he was. 67 00:04:16.158 --> 00:04:17.780 Just, um... Well... 68 00:04:18.260 --> 00:04:28.865 No, partly the momentum of what he built and partly luck and partly comedy as much as a boom and, you know, and some smart decisions. 69 00:04:28.925 --> 00:04:32.546 So just to clarify, he was an immigrant, as was your mom. 70 00:04:32.606 --> 00:04:34.627 They both came over from Israel and. 71 00:04:34.988 --> 00:04:35.668 My mother's still alive. 72 00:04:35.688 --> 00:04:35.828 Yeah. 73 00:04:36.389 --> 00:04:36.890 Yes, sorry. 74 00:04:37.952 --> 00:04:44.143 And I didn't mean to imply she is an immigrant, but she's not currently in the process of immigrating. 75 00:04:44.825 --> 00:04:48.411 And he created the Comedy Cellar? 76 00:04:49.207 --> 00:04:52.110 He, he, well, you know, even he didn't create it. 77 00:04:53.911 --> 00:05:01.158 There was a guy named Bill Grunfest, who I'm still friends with, who actually came in and the place was kind of empty at the time, the basement of the olive tree. 78 00:05:02.078 --> 00:05:03.239 And he had the idea. 79 00:05:03.259 --> 00:05:06.542 He said, hey, I'll bring some comedians here and, you know, you can take the drinks. 80 00:05:06.582 --> 00:05:07.944 I'll take the door, that kind of thing. 81 00:05:08.304 --> 00:05:12.868 And it was mostly just like a treading water thing for a room that wasn't really doing anything. 82 00:05:13.495 --> 00:05:24.578 And just to clarify for people who aren't New Yorkers or aren't familiar with the geography, this block and this portion of the city was incredibly influential in the 60s. 83 00:05:24.598 --> 00:05:25.978 Like, when are we talking about? 84 00:05:26.018 --> 00:05:30.759 Because this was where, I mean, you could roll off the names better than I could. 85 00:05:30.819 --> 00:05:31.579 But for everyone. 86 00:05:31.599 --> 00:05:39.981 This is where Dylan and the Loving's Bullseye, James Taylor, Joan Baez, Bill Cosby, Richard Pryor, Lenny Bruce, they all were on this block. 87 00:05:40.001 --> 00:05:41.962 All started right here on this block. 88 00:05:42.022 --> 00:05:42.202 Yeah. 89 00:05:43.882 --> 00:05:47.864 And my father had the Café Fienjan, which is a very, very famous place at the time, too. 90 00:05:48.785 --> 00:05:51.966 But it was Middle Eastern and Israeli, so it's not legendary. 91 00:05:53.427 --> 00:05:58.229 But anyway, this was 1981 when the village was already not that anymore. 92 00:05:58.409 --> 00:05:58.750 Right. 93 00:05:58.790 --> 00:05:59.050 OK. 94 00:05:59.070 --> 00:06:00.551 But my father was still doing well. 95 00:06:00.591 --> 00:06:05.073 He had moved his Café Fienjan next door to where the Café Wah is now. 96 00:06:05.981 --> 00:06:09.145 Another iconic place, Café Watt. 97 00:06:09.165 --> 00:06:10.768 The original Café Watt closed in 1968. 98 00:06:10.808 --> 00:06:11.348 Okay. 99 00:06:12.110 -->

00:06:17.958 And then when I, now I'm fast forwarding another six, 17 years, when I reopened the Café Watt, 100 00:06:18.955 --> 00:06:21.517 I just took the name because I remembered it from when I was a kid. 101 00:06:21.557 --> 00:06:22.638 Oh, you didn't even have to pay for it. 102 00:06:23.018 --> 00:06:24.659 No, it was abandoned. 103 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:27.801 And the Fat Black Pussycat was also an abandoned name from when I was a kid. 104 00:06:27.821 --> 00:06:28.142 Right. 105 00:06:28.162 --> 00:06:30.263 So I started plucking these names from when I was a kid. 106 00:06:30.623 --> 00:06:33.506 Nobody had any idea what the Café Wa was. 107 00:06:33.706 --> 00:06:36.928 I remember trying to tell people why the Café Wa seemed like a stupid name. 108 00:06:37.068 --> 00:06:39.430 Yeah, and if people haven't seen it written, it's like, what? 109 00:06:39.710 --> 00:06:40.410 W-H-A question mark. 110 00:06:40.430 --> 00:06:41.411 Like W-H-A question mark. 111 00:06:41.431 --> 00:06:41.731 What? 112 00:06:41.851 --> 00:06:42.031 What? 113 00:06:42.051 --> 00:06:42.271 Cafe What? 114 00:06:42.291 --> 00:06:42.992 Yeah, Cafe What. 115 00:06:43.432 --> 00:06:47.895 And that was, again, Bob Dylan and all those kinds of people played the original. 116 00:06:47.935 --> 00:06:49.116 Well, Jimi Hendrix was discovered. 117 00:06:49.136 --> 00:06:50.276 Hendrix, amazing. 118 00:06:50.336 --> 00:06:52.858 So you just come in and pilfer. 119 00:06:53.278 --> 00:06:55.640 You essentially scavenge the name. 120 00:06:55.840 --> 00:06:58.321 Well, we actually, I mean, I'm going to so many different things. 121 00:06:58.341 --> 00:07:03.565 We were friends with Manny Roth, who was the actual originator and owner of the Cafe What. 122 00:07:03.725 --> 00:07:03.825 Okay. 123 00:07:03.845 --> 00:07:04.105 Okay. 124 00:07:04.425 --> 00:07:05.826 I knew he had some kind of blessing. 125 00:07:05.846 --> 00:07:06.006 Yeah. 126 00:07:06.086 --> 00:07:07.908 And he and so we told him we were going to do it. 127 00:07:09.770 --> 00:07:11.891 And he wasn't happy, but he was David. 128 00:07:11.911 --> 00:07:13.112 He was David Lee Roth's uncle. 129 00:07:13.413 --> 00:07:16.335 I thought you were going to say that you asked him and he gave you his blessing. 130 00:07:16.355 --> 00:07:18.977 But instead, you told him and he didn't like it. 131 00:07:19.197 --> 00:07:20.779 We asked him how he felt about it. 132 00:07:22.580 --> 00:07:25.723 And he he was ambivalent. 133 00:07:27.537 --> 00:07:35.599 And then in the end, he said, OK, so I think if he had if he had said, listen, I really don't want you to do this. 134 00:07:35.719 --> 00:07:37.359 I don't think it wasn't. 135 00:07:37.379 --> 00:07:39.580 It didn't seem that important at the time. 136 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:43.120 But the argument to him was and it's true. 137 00:07:43.620 --> 00:07:46.441 It actually it happened exactly as I said to him. 138 00:07:46.501 --> 00:07:54.783 I said, this will reanimate, revive the history of the Café WI and that will lead to you. 139 00:07:55.862 --> 00:07:56.862 I remember saying this to him. 140 00:07:56.963 --> 00:08:00.604 And if the if I'm successful with this, you will then become known. 141 00:08:00.684 --> 00:08:04.106 Just dangle a little bit of ego and glory in front of a man. 142 00:08:04.186 --> 00:08:05.347 Well, yeah, but it was true. 143 00:08:05.387 --> 00:08:06.387 And it's exactly what's happened. 144 00:08:06.407 --> 00:08:15.451 If you if you read about Manny Roth now, he's he's he has a whole story about him now, which because people think he was the owner of the cafe while that I own. 145 00:08:15.471 --> 00:08:15.791 Right. 146 00:08:15.811 --> 00:08:16.012 Right. 147 00:08:16.052 --> 00:08:16.232 Right. 148 00:08:16.292 --> 00:08:16.512 Right. 149 00:08:16.532 --> 00:08:16.892 I don't care. 150 00:08:16.992 --> 00:08:23.317 And so the original Comedy Cellar, which is now, because I want to just sort of get to your expansion of this business and how it takes place. 151 00:08:23.537 --> 00:08:25.098 Yeah, I want to talk about the money too. 152 00:08:25.299 --> 00:08:25.899 And the money, yes. 153 00:08:25.919 --> 00:08:26.680 We're going to get to the money. 154 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:29.942 And we're also going to get to enjoying life instead of money because I've got an anecdote about that. 155 00:08:29.962 --> 00:08:32.304 So remind me if I don't tell you. 156 00:08:32.384 --> 00:08:35.206 So 81, New York's in the doldrums, is it? 157 00:08:35.246 --> 00:08:36.667 It's kind of dirty and crime-ridden. 158 00:08:36.868 --> 00:08:37.368 It's definitely. 159 00:08:37.488 --> 00:08:39.408 It's definitely dirty and crime-ridden, yes. 160 00:08:39.608 --> 00:08:47.650 And so your dad opens a comedy club because he can, because this block is a former heyday and now kind of derelict. 161 00:08:47.670 --> 00:08:48.130 Is that right? 162 00:08:48.170 --> 00:08:49.070 He had an empty room. 163 00:08:49.130 --> 00:08:50.090 It was a nice little room. 164 00:08:50.310 --> 00:08:51.091 They were doing... 165 00:08:51.151 --> 00:08:57.112 There was a Brazilian girl was coming named Ana, and she was doing Brazilian music with guitar one night a week. 166 00:08:57.152 --> 00:08:57.712 It was just like... 167 00:08:57.872 --> 00:08:59.212 Treading water is the best way to put it. 168 00:08:59.272 --> 00:08:59.612 Yeah. 169 00:09:00.192 --> 00:09:03.853 And then Bill came in with this vision, and then he... 170 00:09:04.971 --> 00:09:10.874 was the house MC for, I don't know, five, six years and booked the acts. 171 00:09:11.234 --> 00:09:11.955 Was he a good comic? 172 00:09:12.575 --> 00:09:14.816 He was a, he was a good comic and a very good MC. 173 00:09:16.117 --> 00:09:17.177 And he was also friends. 174 00:09:18.218 --> 00:09:21.980 Um, he didn't take himself that seriously. 175 00:09:22.020 --> 00:09:32.065 He, he saw his function was what a good MC does, which is to, to make the room

happy, to, to, to, um, cast a spell of informality. 176 00:09:32.085 --> 00:09:32.185 Yeah. 177 00:09:33.065 --> 00:09:38.887 to the audience such that they were in the proper mood to receive the comedians when they come up. 178 00:09:39.207 --> 00:09:40.247 And he was very good at that. 179 00:09:40.887 --> 00:09:44.969 And I'm sure he was good as an act as well, but I never really saw him as an actor. 180 00:09:45.029 --> 00:09:52.171 Is it also an emcee's job if a comedian tanks to get the crowd back up before the next person comes on? 181 00:09:52.391 --> 00:09:52.951 Absolutely. 182 00:09:52.971 --> 00:09:54.132 And he was very good at that, too. 183 00:09:54.632 --> 00:09:55.112 He was very good. 184 00:09:55.492 --> 00:09:59.953 Hey humans, just jumping in here quickly to make sure you're aware that this is just a preview. 185 00:10:00.014 --> 00:10:04.715 This is just a brief highlight of one of our premium episodes. 186 00:10:04.915 --> 00:10:15.278 If you weren't aware, it is our very generous paid subscribers and channel members who help make all of this possible and they get extra juicy premium episodes just like this one. 187 00:10:15.539 --> 00:10:22.821 You can become a member on YouTube to watch the full episode or you can subscribe via our sub stack to get the entire back, 188 00:10:22.921 --> 00:10:28.403 catalog of mind expanding bullshit free, uncomfortable conversations back to the show. 189 00:10:28.743 --> 00:10:29.644 He has a great sense of humor. 190 00:10:29.664 --> 00:10:34.526 He, he later went on to become the head writer for mad about you, the Paul Reiser show. 191 00:10:34.606 --> 00:10:37.227 So he's, you know, he's a real comic mind. 192 00:10:38.077 --> 00:10:38.678 Speaking of money. 193 00:10:39.058 --> 00:10:39.699 Speaking of money. 194 00:10:39.739 --> 00:10:43.302 Money and being a head writer of a big primetime sitcom. 195 00:10:43.542 --> 00:10:44.243 I don't know. 196 00:10:44.363 --> 00:10:45.644 Maybe, probably. 197 00:10:46.045 --> 00:10:53.992 So, but he was also very, very smart and would do everything with a purpose. 198 00:10:54.252 --> 00:10:55.453 He's like, okay, I'm an emcee. 199 00:10:55.493 --> 00:10:57.275 This is my function as an emcee. 200 00:10:57.295 --> 00:10:58.736 So let me set about... 201 00:10:59.617 --> 00:11:06.962 uh, doing the best job at emceeing that I can do without regard to the brilliant classical music. 202 00:11:07.022 --> 00:11:11.385 I want to play, you know, this is this, I'm, I'm writing commercial jingles now, so I'm going to write commercial jingles. 203 00:11:11.425 --> 00:11:12.185 Very valuable. 204 00:11:12.305 --> 00:11:12.506 Yeah. 205 00:11:12.646 --> 00:11:16.208 So he, and he, and that's the way he approaches everything, which is why he's very successful. 206 00:11:16.608 --> 00:11:19.070 He knows what he wants to accomplish and that's what he does. 207 00:11:19.710 --> 00:11:25.814 So somebody could see something like that and they, and they could, uh,

uh, under, underestimate his talent. 208 00:11:25.874 --> 00:11:26.094 Um, 209 00:11:27.075 --> 00:11:29.496 But actually... Because they only saw one piece of the jigsaw. 210 00:11:29.617 --> 00:11:31.898 Yeah, but it's actually because he's focused. 211 00:11:32.018 --> 00:11:33.419 And not out for ego. 212 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:34.079 Okay. 213 00:11:34.299 --> 00:11:36.320 So what did he want to achieve with the comedy salon? 214 00:11:36.341 --> 00:11:36.581 Did he? 215 00:11:37.781 --> 00:11:38.082 Did he? 216 00:11:38.102 --> 00:11:38.542 Yeah. 217 00:11:39.002 --> 00:11:40.463 He wanted stage time, I think. 218 00:11:40.583 --> 00:11:41.964 And he wanted... Who knows? 219 00:11:42.024 --> 00:11:43.405 He was young at the time, in his 20s. 220 00:11:44.325 --> 00:11:45.106 And then he left. 221 00:11:45.406 --> 00:11:45.946 And then... 222 00:11:47.907 --> 00:11:52.088 You know, and he and my father hit it off very, very well and very intimately. 223 00:11:52.128 --> 00:11:52.848 They thought alike. 224 00:11:53.268 --> 00:11:57.609 They had similar Jewish backgrounds, American Jewish backgrounds. 225 00:11:58.069 --> 00:12:01.090 And my father thought the world of Bill. 226 00:12:01.850 --> 00:12:07.971 And then when Bill left, my father, I remember him saying, do you think we can make it without him? 227 00:12:08.011 --> 00:12:08.791 You know, we didn't know. 228 00:12:08.811 --> 00:12:09.772 We'll try. 229 00:12:09.792 --> 00:12:11.352 And what were you doing? 230 00:12:11.372 --> 00:12:11.772 Yeah. 231 00:12:12.262 --> 00:12:13.963 At this time, I was running the Café Rois. 232 00:12:14.684 --> 00:12:17.366 So that's, you know, I had the Café Rois. 233 00:12:17.386 --> 00:12:18.066 I was in the band. 234 00:12:18.086 --> 00:12:19.207 I was playing five nights a week. 235 00:12:19.447 --> 00:12:20.468 It was a huge success. 236 00:12:21.249 --> 00:12:22.810 And that's why you went half deaf? 237 00:12:23.010 --> 00:12:24.611 That's why I'm three-quarters deaf. 238 00:12:24.631 --> 00:12:25.332 Three-quarters deaf. 239 00:12:25.392 --> 00:12:26.172 I was being polite. 240 00:12:26.693 --> 00:12:27.053 What's that? 241 00:12:27.173 --> 00:12:28.554 I was being polite. 242 00:12:29.495 --> 00:12:30.756 So you're there. 243 00:12:30.916 --> 00:12:39.723 So just to give me the short version of how you expand into this empire that you currently command from your father having won. 244 00:12:40.658 --> 00:12:45.083 Okay, so I got out of law school and I didn't want to be a lawyer for the reasons I already told you. 245 00:12:45.123 --> 00:12:46.365 So my father said. 246 00:12:46.605 --> 00:12:48.067 I mean, some people like being lawyers. 247 00:12:50.739 --> 00:13:04.610 I think people who do public interest work, appellate lawyer, there are certain areas of the law which are very intellectually rewarding where I think people like them and maybe even ambulance chasing for the adventure of it. 248 00:13:04.630 --> 00:13:13.516 I mean, I know

I have a lawyer friend who is one of the best like defamation, like protecting people who are probably and also – 249 00:13:14.777 --> 00:13:25.827 who are probably bad, right, but have been, but have nonetheless been wronged in some way, or, you know, someone has said something about them that technically this wouldn't fly in America, obviously, because of your First Amendment. 250 00:13:25.847 --> 00:13:33.454 But in Australia, if you say something that's untrue about somebody that could cast aspersions on them, then that, you know, you can get sued. 251 00:13:33.495 --> 00:13:34.435 And he likes it. 252 00:13:34.696 --> 00:13:34.936 Yeah. 253 00:13:35.276 --> 00:13:35.717 Great time. 254 00:13:36.416 --> 00:13:38.680 Yeah, it's like a lot of journalists like ruining people. 255 00:13:38.900 --> 00:13:40.102 Yeah, yeah, it's true. 256 00:13:40.162 --> 00:13:40.463 It's true. 257 00:13:40.783 --> 00:13:43.648 So, but most of the lawyers I met 258 00:13:47.975 --> 00:13:51.459 You know, they just couldn't wait for their sabbatical they'd get after eight years. 259 00:13:51.479 --> 00:13:53.001 They were just miserable. 260 00:13:53.181 --> 00:13:56.685 Now, you know, there is part of what we're describing isn't the law. 261 00:13:57.145 --> 00:14:01.530 It's that people who are their own boss are generally happier. 262 00:14:02.071 --> 00:14:05.495 So certain areas of the law allow you to be your own boss. 263 00:14:05.515 --> 00:14:07.457 We're using the describing this guy who works for himself. 264 00:14:07.497 --> 00:14:08.058 Yeah, yeah. 265 00:14:08.178 --> 00:14:11.481 As opposed to working for a law firm, which is where most people work. 266 00:14:11.501 --> 00:14:15.705 Well, it does work for a firm, but it's so high up that it can take whatever cases it wants to. 267 00:14:15.785 --> 00:14:17.126 And, you know, it doesn't have to be. 268 00:14:17.246 --> 00:14:18.027 Yes, I agree. 269 00:14:18.127 --> 00:14:22.752 Being on the clock and having to punch in and punch out and do the paperwork submissions. 270 00:14:22.772 --> 00:14:24.093 And to answer to somebody. 271 00:14:24.293 --> 00:14:24.473 Yeah. 272 00:14:24.493 --> 00:14:33.122 For your mistakes or to get permission for a vacation or how come you're late or I'm just so I mean, it's it's a miserable way to live. 273 00:14:33.162 --> 00:14:33.563 Oh, my God. 274 00:14:33.603 --> 00:14:35.985 Getting permission for a vacation is the weirdest thing. 275 00:14:36.025 --> 00:14:39.949 No, I got a I remember getting my first job job. 276 00:14:40.470 --> 00:14:46.395 Because in this game, like, I don't think I've ever gotten a job that was advertised as a job. 277 00:14:46.435 --> 00:14:51.680 And so I've always just, like, wrangled my way into something and slithered in and then they've just let me stay. 278 00:14:52.160 --> 00:14:56.965 But one time I was, I got a job as a radio producer when I was fresh out of college. 279 00:14:57.645 --> 00:15:03.170 And I remember my, I wanted to

go and see my grandmother in New Zealand. 280 00:15:03.690 --> 00:15:05.972 And I'd been working there a few months and I was like, 281 00:15:06.653 --> 00:15:12.958 can I take a week off in, you know, three or four weeks time, but don't pay me, obviously, you know, I don't need you to pay me. 282 00:15:12.978 --> 00:15:16.261 And they were like, no, you haven't earned enough holidays yet. 283 00:15:16.381 --> 00:15:19.064 And I was like, yeah, I get the, I said, you don't have to pay me. 284 00:15:19.304 --> 00:15:24.068 Like, I just want to, I just want a week off, but you know, and, and, 285 00:15:25.364 --> 00:15:27.726 They wouldn't let me take unpaid. 286 00:15:27.767 --> 00:15:34.874 Like it was like I was asking them for, you know, could you please shave a turkey and hand it to me in the studio. 287 00:15:34.894 --> 00:15:37.817 I was like, they were so by the book. 288 00:15:37.917 --> 00:15:38.658 And this is normal. 289 00:15:38.958 --> 00:15:39.118 Yeah. 290 00:15:39.278 --> 00:15:42.301 Like everyone listening to this is probably like, well, yeah, of course, that's the way it works. 291 00:15:42.361 --> 00:15:43.423 It was completely new to me. 292 00:15:43.943 --> 00:15:45.124 And I was out of there within the year. 293 00:15:45.144 --> 00:15:46.546 And I've never had a job like that since. 294 00:15:46.846 --> 00:15:49.648 Well, let's keep talking about how miserable it is to be an employee. 295 00:15:49.708 --> 00:15:53.291 So that Steve, our engineer, fucking sabotages the recording. 296 00:15:53.331 --> 00:15:54.092 Yes, Steve. 297 00:15:54.692 --> 00:15:56.194 What's it like to be a loser? 298 00:15:56.214 --> 00:15:59.796 I need to take some days off. 299 00:16:00.277 --> 00:16:06.462 But this is one of the pleasures of running your own business is that you're completely autonomous. 300 00:16:06.482 --> 00:16:07.082 You do what you want. 301 00:16:07.142 --> 00:16:09.684 And by the way, you don't take a lot of vacations because... 302 00:16:10.565 --> 00:16:14.728 You're worried about your business, but it's your own child. 303 00:16:14.848 --> 00:16:15.949 Well, you can – Yes, that's true. 304 00:16:15.969 --> 00:16:17.790 It's not you're not babysitting, it's your own child. 305 00:16:17.810 --> 00:16:19.191 You can take semi-vacations. 306 00:16:19.231 --> 00:16:22.653 I used to work for Arianna Huffington when she was at the peak of her powers. 307 00:16:22.693 --> 00:16:27.636 And I remember saying she was in – you know, she was on a yacht in the Greek islands or something like that. 308 00:16:27.656 --> 00:16:32.259 And she got back and she said, oh, they were always telling me you've got to get off your phone. 309 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:33.820 You know, I shouldn't be on my phone. 310 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.463 I was like, the reason I can be on this yacht is because I'm on my phone. 311 00:16:37.743 --> 00:16:37.863 Oh. 312 00:16:37.963 --> 00:16:38.664 And she was right. 313 00:16:38.704 --> 00:16:41.686 She's always working and she's always able to not work. 314 00:16:41.826 --> 00:16:44.869 But like, there is a liability in that, though, as well. 315 00:16:45.109 --> 00:16:57.099 I do find that I would love, I think this is a mega version of the problem that we've all encountered with the rise of smartphones and home computers in the past generation, that... 316 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:03.803 I can't believe that like when my parents started working, you could not be reached. 317 00:17:03.863 --> 00:17:07.505 You just left home, you left work and you went home and there were no computers. 318 00:17:08.126 --> 00:17:08.766 It was the best. 319 00:17:09.526 --> 00:17:17.651 That's so bizarre to me that you would not be reachable on your email at 8 p.m. You know, even while you're watching TV, you'd just be scrolling. 320 00:17:17.671 --> 00:17:20.412 And if your boss sent you an email, you'd respond to it or something. 321 00:17:20.432 --> 00:17:26.196 Listen, I'm so old that I remember the first time we got a home answering machine. 322 00:17:27.080 --> 00:17:34.229 before there was a home answering machine, literally, if you were out, you were out and somebody couldn't even leave a message for you. 323 00:17:34.850 --> 00:17:35.751 Like, where were you? 324 00:17:35.831 --> 00:17:36.291 I was out. 325 00:17:36.331 --> 00:17:37.112 Yeah. 326 00:17:37.313 --> 00:17:42.239 And I mean, you know, this was great for men who wanted to... 327 00:17:43.760 --> 00:17:45.221 have some privacy in their lives. 328 00:17:45.261 --> 00:17:47.741 But and now I think it's horrible. 329 00:17:48.021 --> 00:17:52.763 I think the fact that that, you know, you're you're reachable 24 hours. 330 00:17:52.783 --> 00:18:00.425 And it's not just that you're reachable, is that you know that someone's going to interpret the fact that you're not answering in some way. 331 00:18:00.445 --> 00:18:03.426 So you feel tremendous pressure to answer, but you don't want to answer. 332 00:18:03.446 --> 00:18:05.147 You just like to have three hours. 333 00:18:05.767 --> 00:18:09.251 you know, to think or spend time with your kids or whatever it is. 334 00:18:09.271 --> 00:18:15.737 So I think everyone has that on the micro level of not being able to switch off when they go home, unless they're like a laborer or something. 335 00:18:16.218 --> 00:18:23.965 And we self-employed people have it on a bigger level, which is that because we love what we do and because what we do, 336 00:18:24.646 --> 00:18:27.847 because our success is directly correlated to how much attention we give it. 337 00:18:29.968 --> 00:18:41.391 We both have the freedom to not be chained to a desk and also the liability of the fact that when we aren't chained to a desk, we are still always thinking about work, if not actively working. 338 00:18:42.132 --> 00:18:43.692 But it's very important to keep perspective. 339 00:18:43.752 --> 00:18:50.454 So, I mean, I have people who spent, you know, 40, 50 years 340

00:18:52.373 --> 00:18:56.254 working for my family in the kitchen. 341 00:18:58.094 --> 00:19:03.215 Five days a week, six days a week, coming and cooking in front of that stove every day. 342 00:19:03.755 --> 00:19:06.136 That's how they spent their lives until they retired. 343 00:19:06.956 --> 00:19:13.077 And they raised families and they, you know, we had- Wait, your family had a cook? 344 00:19:13.878 --> 00:19:16.138 No, I'm saying in our kitchen, in the restaurant. 345 00:19:16.178 --> 00:19:16.478 I'm sorry. 346 00:19:16.498 --> 00:19:17.018 Professionally. 347 00:19:17.138 --> 00:19:17.578 Yeah, yeah. 348 00:19:17.598 --> 00:19:19.119 But I'm saying like to- 349 00:19:21.678 --> 00:19:23.642 And these were pretty decent jobs. 350 00:19:24.063 --> 00:19:25.165 They stayed 40, 50 years. 351 00:19:25.185 --> 00:19:28.873 Obviously, they thought the job was okay. 352 00:19:30.496 --> 00:19:33.262 But I'm just saying, when you think about 353 00:19:35.674 --> 00:19:47.760 the limits of spending your life cooking behind a stove or, and you can extrapolate that to, or compare that to, you know, most jobs, 80, 80% of jobs are some form of that. 354 00:19:47.820 --> 00:19:48.081 Right. 355 00:19:49.341 --> 00:19:54.824 Um, we, we have no right to, to bellyache about, I mean, nothing's perfect, right? 356 00:19:54.844 --> 00:19:58.206 There's always something, but we're so, so, so lucky. 357 00:19:58.266 --> 00:20:00.647 And that doesn't even express it. 358 00:20:00.667 --> 00:20:01.708 My father used to say, 359 00:20:03.550 --> 00:20:15.433 If there was one of these big lottery things, you know, and he said, and every soul... You're doing the visual of like rolling one of those big spherical cage with balls in it. 360 00:20:15.453 --> 00:20:15.873 Yeah, exactly. 361 00:20:15.913 --> 00:20:20.415 And he said, imagine every soul that's ever lived is a ball inside that. 362 00:20:20.435 --> 00:20:27.076 He says, what are the odds you think you could pick out a life happier, preferable to the one that you're leading? 363 00:20:28.117 --> 00:20:28.677 You know, yeah. 364 00:20:29.992 --> 00:20:31.413 0.00001% chance. 365 00:20:31.433 --> 00:20:35.114 Yeah, that's great. 366 00:20:35.414 --> 00:20:36.235 Almost impossible. 367 00:20:36.255 --> 00:20:36.775 That's great. 368 00:20:36.895 --> 00:20:47.860 I mean, I would say happier is a tricky thing because happier is somewhat, well, not somewhat, is entirely subjective and somewhat within our control. 369 00:20:48.340 --> 00:20:51.522 But in terms of, but like materially better off. 370 00:20:52.242 --> 00:20:54.865 I sometimes say, like, imagine throwing a dart at a dartboard. 371 00:20:54.945 --> 00:20:59.550 Imagine all of the people, not just who are alive today, but who have ever lived... 372 00:21:00.921 --> 00:21:11.008 And if people listening to this are like feeling down or complaining, it's always hard to say this because, you know, everyone has legitimate reasons for their own problems.

373 00:21:11.048 --> 00:21:15.310 And sometimes you can't get out of a headspace of, you know, you might have clinical depression or whatever. 374 00:21:15.991 --> 00:21:20.173 It's hard to wag your finger at somebody and say, you should be happy because look at all of this shit that you've got. 375 00:21:20.273 --> 00:21:25.217 But if you had to throw a dart at a dartboard and hit a portion of the board. 376 00:21:26.217 --> 00:21:34.661 where, you know, to be reincarnated as one of the people, and like that dartboard is covered in a dot representing every single person who's ever lived anywhere. 377 00:21:35.661 --> 00:21:43.285 The odds that you're going to hit someone who is safer and better off materially than you. 378 00:21:43.385 --> 00:21:44.866 But he didn't mean it materially. 379 00:21:45.226 --> 00:21:47.707 He meant it in terms of fulfillment. 380 00:21:48.527 --> 00:21:49.508 And I think that... 381 00:21:50.550 --> 00:21:51.850 I'm thinking about this for the first time. 382 00:21:51.890 --> 00:21:54.051 So, you know, we sleep a third of our lives. 383 00:21:54.071 --> 00:21:55.331 Let's say we sleep eight hours a day, right? 384 00:21:55.951 --> 00:22:03.852 And I think many people will imagine the time that they spend working, as I'm describing. 385 00:22:04.912 --> 00:22:06.433 Essentially, it's my lost time. 386 00:22:06.473 --> 00:22:07.613 It's like sleep time. 387 00:22:08.133 --> 00:22:13.494 And then some of those people are left with the rest of the time, which is very fulfilling for them. 388 00:22:14.274 --> 00:22:19.055 But somebody like my father, 100% of the time that he wasn't sleeping, 389 00:22:19.975 --> 00:22:20.976 was fulfilling time. 390 00:22:21.276 --> 00:22:24.457 There was no drudgery in his life. 391 00:22:24.497 --> 00:22:25.498 He created his life. 392 00:22:25.598 --> 00:22:29.940 So he would not do anything, not even for five minutes that he did not want to do. 393 00:22:30.620 --> 00:22:36.462 And this is whether he's playing music, whatever it was, hanging out with the comedians, whatever, this is what he wanted to do. 394 00:22:36.903 --> 00:22:37.603 And that's what he did. 395 00:22:38.603 --> 00:22:44.266 And so, and so, so this is a relationship and money is fuels that you need money, but money's not the goal for that. 396 00:22:44.766 --> 00:22:46.347 Now, just to, just to wrap it up. 397 00:22:47.604 --> 00:22:48.925 I'm not opening the comedy club. 398 00:22:49.185 --> 00:22:49.785 Let me just pause. 399 00:22:49.805 --> 00:22:50.326 Yeah. 400 00:22:50.346 --> 00:22:50.866 We'll get to it. 401 00:22:50.986 --> 00:22:51.706 Just on your dad. 402 00:22:51.907 --> 00:22:52.067 Yeah. 403 00:22:52.247 --> 00:22:55.869 Was that a choice, an attitude choice on his part? 404 00:22:56.269 --> 00:23:00.332 Not just how he spends his time, but how he looks at spending his time? 405 00:23:00.392 --> 00:23:04.174 Or was he naturally a sunny person? 406 00:23:05.935 --> 00:23:07.796 He was naturally a sunny person. 407 00:23:08.757 --> 00:23:10.538 He was very, very gifted. 408 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:13.980 So, you know, he... 409 00:23:16.042 --> 00:23:20.706 he approached life without a net and he succeeded. 410 00:23:20.926 --> 00:23:26.211 You know, you can't really advise everybody to do that because most people would probably fail. 411 00:23:28.273 --> 00:23:42.125 And, um, he, but he also had a, a, a mentality, which was not typical of his one, 1930, you know, which is raised at the time of the depression and the Holocaust and, and, um, 412 00:23:44.135 --> 00:23:50.163 Typical Jews of his age did not have his attitude about life. 413 00:23:50.803 --> 00:23:51.685 Where was he raised? 414 00:23:52.986 --> 00:23:53.867 He was born in Israel. 415 00:23:53.887 --> 00:23:55.149 He came here in 19... 416 00:23:56.471 --> 00:23:57.892 So, before it was Israel? 417 00:23:58.914 --> 00:23:59.935 Don't get technical now. 418 00:24:01.818 --> 00:24:06.603 I thought he might have gone to Israel when Israel came into existence. 419 00:24:06.623 --> 00:24:08.945 He was born in occupied Palestine. 420 00:24:09.005 --> 00:24:10.026 Yes, yes, right. 421 00:24:10.066 --> 00:24:12.448 He was born in Palestine in Jerusalem. 422 00:24:12.468 --> 00:24:14.770 I think he was born in 1939, but he was eight years old. 423 00:24:16.853 --> 00:24:17.873 G'day humans. 424 00:24:17.933 --> 00:24:24.636 Well, if you've listened to this much of the episode, then you must enjoy it, presumably, unless you're just listening for masochistic reasons. 425 00:24:24.997 --> 00:24:26.037 So you should listen to the rest of it. 426 00:24:26.237 --> 00:24:38.442 And the way you do that is by subscribing to the premium feed, where you not only get to hear the rest of this delightful conversation, and trust me, oh, it gets better than what you just heard, but you also get to hear no ads, zero ads. 427 00:24:38.923 --> 00:24:41.844 And previously, up until now, you had to go to the old sub stack. 428 00:24:42.144 --> 00:24:47.668 to do that and follow me on Substack and add one more platform to your life if you're not already on Substack. 429 00:24:48.269 --> 00:24:48.869 But here's the thing. 430 00:24:49.209 --> 00:24:52.072 We are now on Apple premium podcast as well. 431 00:24:52.092 --> 00:24:55.274 So with one click, Apple will just subscribe you up to the premium feed. 432 00:24:55.294 --> 00:24:57.656 You'll be able to listen to the rest of this conversation right now, right now. 433 00:24:57.976 --> 00:24:58.396 Right now. 434 00:24:58.637 --> 00:25:02.780 So open up your Apple podcasts, click the old pay old Zepsi button. 435 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:03.881 That's probably what it's called. 436 00:25:04.021 --> 00:25:04.902 Pay old Zepsi. 437 00:25:05.423 --> 00:25:08.806 And you click the button and then you no longer have to be a free rider. 438 00:25:09.166 --> 00:25:13.690 You can feel like you're contributing to the mission of this show, which is really what we're all here for. 439 00:25:13.910 --> 00:25:19.455 Better conversations, a freer, more freewheeling attitude towards the things that we can talk about. 440 00:25:20.096 --> 00:25:25.202 a way to steel man our opponents and to take the most gracious approach towards disagreement. 441 00:25:25.582 --> 00:25:32.110 That is what you're voting for when you vote for Uncomfortable Conversations by going into your Apple Podcasts and clicking subscribe. 442 00:25:32.610 --> 00:25:33.011 I love you. 443 00:25:33.371 --> 00:25:34.753 If you don't do that, that's fine. 444 00:25:35.073 --> 00:25:36.916 I'll see you the next free episode, I guess. 445 00:25:37.316 --> 00:25:37.676 Take care.