บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Episode 10: Creativity Isn’t Magic — It’s a Leadership Practice with Dr. Amy Climer

ideas if that's appropriate. Kate McCaffrey: Yeah, and I think that's the twist, right? When you think about, you know, my idea of a paradigm or twist is that the twist is that it doesn't have to be this giant shift or twenty-five things. It could be just one small thing or one thing that helps us change our frame of reference or our mindset around what we're doing. And I think, you know, I'm intrigued by your work and thinking about leadership and creativity as intersected, right? And how do we You know, it's not like we have this magic capability when we think about creativity. How do you help leaders understand that everyone has an opportunity to be creative? Amy Climer, Ph.D.: the first is I help so I do focus a lot on that collaborative creativity, right? Like teams working together. And are made of individuals. So each individual's preferences and strengths definitely play a role. So usually what do with for leaders is first talk about, you know, what do those teams need in order to be innovative together? ⁓ And that a big part of the research I did for my dissertation. And what I found is there are three elements that teams need if they want to be creative or innovative together. Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: and I can put up a visual if you would like. Can you see that? Okay. So this Venn diagram kind of lays it out that in order to be creative, teams need a clear team purpose. ⁓ what are we doing? Why are we working together? They need to have strong team dynamics, meaning need to trust each other, they need to be able to engage in conflict, they need to communicate well, and then finally they need to have a team creative process. ⁓ Kate McCaffrey: Sure. Great. Yes, thank you. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: So what's the process they're using to be creative together? that's the area that most teams have no idea about. They don't even know that there could be a process. So when working with leaders and with teams, I often teach them about process. And a part of that is just how are you running your meetings? Or what do do when you say we need to be more innovative? What's the actual work like? And paying attention to that process could be really important. that's one piece that I talk to leaders about and teach them about. And then the other thing is kind of within that process, there's four stage process that I introduced to It's called the creative problem solving process. It's been around for decades, it's been heavily researched. And there's a researcher who created an assessment that measures how we individually ⁓ apply. ⁓ And so often I'll share that, I'll do that assessment with individuals, and then we can look at the whole team and say, okay, you know, do we have a bunch of people who are strong clarifiers or strong implementers, but maybe people who aren't in very good at ideating or developing? And so then there's a gap there. And then often like, ⁓ my gosh, this explains so much for us. ⁓ Yeah. So those are the two. Kate McCaffrey: Sure, yeah. I do think assessments are helpful. I mean, I think when we're trying to understand even how we show up, sometimes when I'm working with individuals and through my process of doing what I do in my business, it's I mean you need to know yourself first. And kind of really thinking about how am I clear on who I am, what my strengths are, where my challenges are. And not that we want to focus necessarily on the challenges, but I think It's easy to say, Well well I'm not creative. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: And usually I hear that, when people say I'm not creative, it's because they have this misnomer and they think creativity is about their ability to draw. And it has nothing to do with that. You know, we've got all these terrible messages growing up that we can't draw and blah blah. And it's like, no, y you can solve problems. I know you can. If you couldn't solve problems, you wouldn't be in your job, right? ⁓ and then they're kind of like, wait a minute, okay. Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: And what's interesting is there's some research that shows that if you believe you're more creative, you will be more creative. So it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. yeah, it's important for leaders and and team members to believe they have something to contribute in that creativity arena. Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Well, and I think you mentioned earlier this idea of we're solving problems differently. And I think sometimes what I hear and see is we just get stuck in the problem. So if we have a meeting or there's a group that's working on a particular project or initiative, we end up sort of going down the rabbit hole of, well, this is why this won't work, or this is what's wrong with it, or this is why the date is bad, or X, Y, or Z isn't working, or so and so didn't show up. You know, I think it's how do we think about problem solving even differently? And it sounds like creativity is a way to to make it even more of a positive, healthier approach to this idea of solving problems. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah, like the process that I teach this creative problem solving process that I just mentioned. So there's four stages to it. And the first stage is clarifying what's going on, what's the problem, what's and that's where we might look at, okay, here's what's not working. I mean, there's some value to to paying attention to that to some degree. But like you said, you don't want to get stuck in that. You also want to look at what is working and Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: It's a time where you might interview people who are involved in the problem and get their perspective, which sometimes that can be really enlightening. And so I've even led workshops where in the middle of the workshop I'm like, all right, 30 minutes, you're gonna go call the people who are involved in this problem and get their input. And people are like, wait, what? Right now? I'm like,

Yep, right now. they come back 30 minutes later and they're like buzzing, ⁓ my gosh, it was so helpful. And ⁓ Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. That's great. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Anyway, yeah, so clarifying is really important. And then at the end of that, thinking about, okay, we thought the problem was X. it still X, or is it actually Y or Z or A or B or C or whatever? Like it sometimes in that clarifying process we realize we were identifying or naming the problem inaccurately. And clarity can be super helpful. What I see a lot of teams do. Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Is they bring up a problem and someone says, we should do this, that everyone says, Okay, let's go. And then they're just rushing to a solution so fast, and then it doesn't solve the problem because they didn't really, you know, spend time clarifying or actually looking at some different ideas. They just had one idea and they went with it. so sometimes just slowing down, and it doesn't slow slow. I'm I mean even fifteen minutes could be helpful. Kate McCaffrey: Mm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ Right. Right. Well, it sounds like even 30 minutes in the middle of your session gave people some great insight into what they were trying to solve. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: That Yeah, yeah. It was actually really hard to get him back from that thirty minutes. Time's up. No, no, no, wait, wait. Kate McCaffrey: Right. Right. Right. Well, and I think this your your your model here around thinking about what's our purpose, right? Why are we a team? I think we often will get lost in the people with positions and functions and titles really recognizing how do we have that clarity of the why, right? Why are we here and what's our purpose together? And then how do we create the dynamics, it sounds like, that able to give us that foundation to lead to creativity? So if we can trust each other, respect each other, be honest, have that open-mindedness. I think sometimes when we're under stress or have these kind of chronic, stressful situations going on in a climate of even uncertainty, those harder from a dynamic standpoint to sustain. Do you have ideas about how teams can think about those dynamics and those characteristics of what they want to do from a how they show up together kind of standpoint. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah, you you mean like within those stressful environments. Kate McCaffrey: Yeah. And just thinking about if we have these dynamics where we have the relationship, I think is a valuable thing. And then what comes with that, the trust, the communication. there ways that your process helps see what those are and where they what they could be? Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah. It's interesting e so often when I'm working with teams, we do spend time in that process ⁓ I mean, even simply as like, what do your staff meetings look like? ⁓ you know, are they, you know, you got 10 people on your team and do three people do all of the talking? or does everyone just go around and report out? Which honestly I think that is the biggest waste of time is when people just go around and I'm like, you got some really smart, bright people in this table at this table, like Kate McCaffrey: Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I did, yeah. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Let's let's get into some some real work instead of just sitting there and listening with what could have been an email or video or something. so I think a lot of it can what can help teams experience stress and have more capacity is looking at how is the work, like how are you working together? And the you work together, and I keep coming back to team meetings because so often that's how teams work together, right? ⁓ Kate McCaffrey: Sure. Yeah. Right. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: That has a huge impact on the team dynamics the trust, the communication, our ability to engage in conflict, all of that. And can sometimes impact the purpose. Where like, is what we're doing aligned to our or does it just like busy work ⁓ or like if you people dreading going to team meetings, you're doing something wrong, right? Like should be like, cool, we have a team meeting. I'm excited about this. ⁓ Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: ⁓ because they're excited about that collaboration. I worked with a team, I think this was about a year, year and a half ago, and I led a day and a half retreat for them, and we looked through you know this process that I teach. And their industry, they're in the entertainment industry, and it's like very fast paced. And there's a lot they can't plan for in advance. Okay. So as we're talking how they work together, I Said, well, you if you follow this like clarify ID8 develop implement, this four-stage creative process, because they're trying to be creative, like this will help more and you won't be, you know, it will seem like it's gonna go slower, but it won't. And, know, they were like, okay, they're like kind of semi-open to it. Well, about four or months later, I talked to them again, and they said that had less stress. They weren't. like feeling is rushed. They're like, yep, we've applied some of the things you've talked about. It's and I was like, whoa, I did not affect I did not expect that it would impact their efficiency and productivity. And so was really cool to hear that. That they just changed a few things in their process and it was like everyone was able to just chill and not be as stressed. Kate McCaffrey: Uh-huh. Sure. That's a great outcome. And I think oftentimes when we think about this type of process or facilitating a process in a meeting or with a team, well, we don't have time for that. We have 40 minutes, everyone has their specific agenda item and agenda, I think. And so I'm it was interesting to hear you say that it it will actually help their efficiency their ability to get work done because they weren't feeling as stressed. And so I think when we say, well, we don't have time for that. ⁓ we could call BS on that and say, No, you have time to do

something, even if it's just one part of it and break it up over smaller meeting times or tasks or things like that. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah, I think it's that I don't know if you heard that that phrase, go slow to go fast. You know, I just like slow it down a little bit and it's gonna speed things up in the end. And if you don't have time, me that just says it's not a priority. Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Right. Right. Sure, sure. And how do you do that from a people standpoint, right? And keeping the people's capacity, I think, in mind can be really valuable as we're trying to to do more and often do more, whether it's with less people or less resources. You mentioned this concept around working together. And I think one of the things that you bring out is difference between being cooperative being collaborative. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. Kate McCaffrey: And I'd love to hear some more about the nuances of those terms because I think oftentimes cooperative. We show up, everybody participates, ⁓ know, in a meeting. We may may or may not be on our phones or on other devices checking email or we may, you agree to to talk about a topic or bring information. But I truly collaboration is different than cooperation. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah. Yeah. And I would say there's many, teams that are highly cooperative, but they're not actually collaborative. And so the difference is cooperation is when team members they show up, they support each other, they share ideas, they respect each other. Like it from the outside, it looks like, ⁓ this is, you know, they're rockin'. But then at the end of the day, they go do their work independently and results are evaluated independently. So they're not actually. ⁓ Kate McCaffrey: Mm, mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: working together. They're there to support each other, but then, you know, they go off and do their own thing that's, you know, maybe in service of the greater organization, of course. But and then collaboration ⁓ where there's that mutual accountability where team members become interdependent with each other and they produce together, they're producing something new. Now, there are times where everyone's going to go off and work independently to reach that. Kate McCaffrey: Sure. Uh-huh. Sure. Yeah. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Collaborative goal. It's not like we're sitting together in a room all day. ⁓ but they're moving from problem, idea, solution together versus just sharing ideas. One the an example I think of is as a emplo and consultant, you I have my own business. I am in this group with four other people who are like me. all have like speaking and training businesses. Kate McCaffrey: No. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: And we meet once a month and we are there and we give each other ideas and feedback and input. And we've been meeting for a couple of years. And so we are quite close. And but at the end of the day, like I care deeply about my colleagues' business. That's their business. Like I'm gonna go off and do my own thing. We're not actually truly collaborating on something together. ⁓ what I see is that a lot of teams, they're structured that way. And in some cases, it's perfectly fine. It's not that. Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Sure. Right. Right. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: You have to collaborate, but I think there can be some confusion if you're not clear about what's actually happening. Kate McCaffrey: Right. And and being clear about here's what we're hoping to gain from each other in this process. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah. Yeah. There's a story that I share in my book that you you may have read. And I was hired a number of years ago to work with a law school and they wanted to bring all of their admin assistants from around the school together and have them a team and be cooperative together. And the admin assistants, like they were pushing back so Like, no, we are not a team. And the administration is like, what are you talking about? Yes, you are. at the time, I did not know the difference. This was like 15 years ago. I didn't know the difference. And what they were saying, the admin assistants were saying, is we are happy to cooperate with each other and share ideas, but we don't have the energy or space or time to truly collaborate. Because at the end of the day, like I'm over here responsible for the real estate law department, and this person's responsible for the environmental law department. And we can't like we don't have time to cooperate. Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Or to collaborate, you know. so I think it can just be helpful for just be clear, you know, which is it. Both are good. Both are fine. yeah. Kate McCaffrey: Right, right. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Well, and it even sounds like it could be a framework for an agenda. Like here's where we need, here's here's the FYI, here's where we're cooperating, here's the collaboration opportunity that we have. I just thought of that. I haven't suggested that to anybody, but that may work as a way to streamline even some of the way in which our meetings are run. Because I think you probably hear this too, but I often hear as well, we don't have time for more meetings. It's like, no, nobody does. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Mm-hmm. Kate McCaffrey: And how do you make them more productive? It sounds like is one of the ways in which you suggest through some of the tools that you suggest people use. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah. Yeah. I I've got a lot of opinions on meetings. I feel like most of them are probably a good part of them are waste of time. maybe more people are in the meeting that need to. I I used to work at universities. I've worked at a couple of them ⁓ and was always on committees, which you know, the committees are a big thing in higher ed. And I feel sometimes there'd be a person on the committee ⁓ who we really needed their input for a small portion of things. Kate McCaffrey: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: But then they were expected to come to every committee meeting. And really should have

just reached out to them for those couple of weeks that we needed them rather than they had to sit through all these meetings that were pretty irrelevant to them. And know, that just also really creates a a weird energy when you have somebody who doesn't really need to be there. Yeah. Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Right. And I think we we want to be inclusive, which is valuable in certain realms. But I think also it's to does everyone from a purpose standpoint, when you think about the purpose, we all fit into the purpose? And if not, where do we fit in differently how do we adapt the structure even? And I you know, I think the the committees and the committees on committees and the working groups and are really challenging because you end up with the dynamic that If we don't take the time to create some of these things intentionally, like you're talking about being more deliberate, then we're spinning our wheels and just you know, I think I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of meetings, but often I'm I'm challenging my teams too to say, How we using our meetings and when and and why are we doing it this way? And you know, I'm at fault too as an administrator. I was taught a certain way to run a meeting and I'm not sure it was the best way, given what we're trying to create now and what we're dealing with from a workplace culture kind of standpoint as well. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah. I mean I feel like most of us we learn from those that have our elders, you know, those who came before us. So yeah, we've all learned like a certain way to run a meeting and know, it so in some you might have learned a good way, but and and also it doesn't need to be the same for every type of meeting, like really thinking through what's the best for this context. So yeah. Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think too, when we when we think about the idea of individuals coming into a team, and I think when we think about both functional teams that are intentionally a team, and then these types of committees or groups that are working together, do individuals affect creativity? And how, you know, how you show up might be different one day than how I show up, but how does that individual impact overall from your perspective? Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah, I think the most powerful person on a team the team members. Like each person, you know, you've probably been a part of a team where was one person that was really tough. You know, they they just their energy or the comments or whatever it was that they had a really negative impact on the team. And of course the opposite is true, right? You can have one person that just is amazing and really brings the team together. And ⁓ Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: I think that one of the most powerful things anyone can do as a who's on a team is to pay attention to their own behavior. am I showing up at my best in service to this team? ⁓ we want you to be yourself, but your best self, right? I mean, and you know, we all have bad days and sometimes it's like I I can't help it, this creeps in. I'm really sad about something or upset about something, and and that's totally fair and valid. And Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Yep, mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: How do you kind of balance that? You maybe it's just sharing with the group, like, hey, y'all, I'm having a rough day. I'm doing my best here. ⁓ and that's cool. And everyone, hopefully people will have grace with that. But I think yeah, just paying attention to our own behaviors. ⁓ And are the person that always when someone shares idea, they're like, ⁓ no, that's not gonna work. We tried that in 1985 and it was a disaster. Like, Kate McCaffrey: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Okay, 30 years ago? Come on. This is a direct quote. This is a quote from a colleague of mine. anyway, you know, thinking about how are you responding to ideas or attempts at creativity. Or I think if you're in that leadership role, and this is the other thing that I see that drives me bonkers, is leaders say, I'd love to get your input about blah, blah, blah. And then they just keep talking. Kate McCaffrey: Right. Things have changed. Right. Yeah. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Like they never they never actually pause to listen. I think listening is one of the most powerful things we can do. ⁓ I mean, there's this balance, right? If you only listen, then maybe you're not you know, we want your thoughts more, ⁓ but I think listening's a really powerful thing. Kate McCaffrey: Right, right. Mm-hmm. And I think doing it in a way that allows people to also listen, right? In in setting that up as a stage of a process, sometimes being super intentional about and I and you've probably familiar with this concept around sort of we think in different frames, right? So if you're a process person, how do I help you understand and think more from an emotional perspective? And if you're the visionary person, how do I help you understand that this is actually what we need to get done? And and yes, we have a future to consider, but in order to get there, we have to actually do these things. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That actually lays over really well with the this assessment tool that I use called Foresight and looking at how we approach creativity. And it's like, yeah, some people love the process of, you know, laying out the okay, here's the plan, the spreadsheet, you know. ⁓ I had this this friend in grad school who her vacations, ⁓ would create these massive spreadsheets for her and her husband. Kate McCaffrey: Mm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: And they had photos and links and all this stuff in the spreadsheet. I was like, What? This is so impressive. vacation, I just like show up, you know? ⁓ I was always like, you know, Tammy, you could be a travel consultant if you wanted. ⁓ she did Kate McCaffrey: Right, right, yeah. Get there and then decide. Yeah. Right. Yeah. No, and I think understanding that, right? Here's my value is

around structure and yours might be around being spontaneous. And that's how do those two mesh together in some ways. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Exactly. Yeah. Actually she and I worked have worked a few times together and it's been really great. ⁓ 'cause Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I always love it when someone else can manage a spreadsheet versus me. That's always mine. I think one of the things you sort of talk about is, you know, how do we are ways in which leaders can more creative teams? Like when we think about what we want people to walk away from this conversation with, are there takeaways that you would encourage people to consider? Amy Climer, Ph.D.: I think take hard look at your process. You know, what are those team meetings like? Are there some changes you can make? You know, even as simple as, this might be getting down another rabbit hole, which I'll we don't have to go this down this, but even simply brainstorming is one of the least effective ways to generate ideas. and so avoiding that and instead. Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Hey, I'd love to get your input on this and I want some ideas. I'm gonna pass around some post notes right now or some index cards or whatever. I'm gonna pass around some paper and I would love for you to jot your ideas down and then let's put them in the middle of the table and talk about them. that simple shift, which takes no extra time, and actually this will take less time, is inclusive, ⁓ you hear voices. You're gonna get you know, two, three, four ideas from each person rather than one idea from three or four people. Kate McCaffrey: Right. Mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: And as simple as that could lead to more innovation. It could create a more inclusive dynamic within the team. so really thinking about the approach how you're approaching ⁓ the work. Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. And I love in your book you talk about having that toolkit, right? So that if something comes up, you're ready as a team and it doesn't have to be whoever is running the meeting's job to pull out the post-it notes and markers. It can be anybody's job. And everybody sort of agreeing that it this this resource is here should we choose to use it. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yes. Yeah, I think, you know, having a box or something in the room with the post its and markers and everything set up, because you're not gonna pause if you have this idea, you're not gonna pause, run down the hall, get everything, come back, you know, you only got an hour, so or however long. And ⁓ but if they're right there, okay, that's not gonna take any extra time. Kate McCaffrey: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Well, and I think too, it's about our time, right? Because oftentimes we'll be like, well, let's schedule another meeting to talk about this particular. And sometimes you might have to ⁓ a what yeah, or get the right people in the room. But I think how we use the time we already have better and more efficiently? And I think that sometimes is the

challenge. I think the other one that ⁓ Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Right. That could be appropriate. Sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kate McCaffrey: I see is just space, right? I think sometimes we're in spaces that don't allow for that type of collaboration we don't create the space. Are there ways in which you encourage groups to to have that intentional kind of space? if they have the time, what about the space? Yeah. ⁓ Or space in the calendar. Like sometimes I'm say I'm suggesting to leaders Amy Climer, Ph.D.: You know. Like the physical Kate McCaffrey: You know, maybe every other Friday for an hour in the morning, there's a conference room that has all the things. Like you talked about paper, pens, post-its, stickers, chart paper if you need it, music going on, snacks, and that's the innovation space. And we're being creative about our current whatever the agenda is or the priorities are. Are there ways in which that you beyond having the toolbox, or is the idea that the toolbox can go anywhere if you have it? Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah. I mean I definitely think, you know, having the portable toolbox is is great. I had a client recently one and I she it was either a tote bag or a little box that she put everything in and you know, so it's very portable. So definitely, yeah, I think a portable ⁓ box supplies can be helpful. I think a physical space where people can sit in a physical circle is nice. ⁓ or know, if it's gotta be a square or something, that's okay too. ⁓ Kate McCaffrey: ⁓ Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: ⁓ I mean mostly teams tend to do that anyway, but sometimes I do see especially like a bigger group, maybe a team meeting where people are more in rows, and like somebody comes up to the front, like when I walk into a room, I tell right away what the intention of that space is. So if chairs set up in rows, I know that people in those chairs are they're just supposed to sit there and listen. So ⁓ Kate McCaffrey: Right. Right. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: you know, thinking about what are the little things you can do that tell people like, we want your voice here. you know, just the arrangement of the chairs says a lot. Kate McCaffrey: Sure. Yeah. I do think that can matter, for sure. So we're talking about intentionality around agenda, space, time, all of those things can help lead to being more creative and being able to solve problems in a more creative, collaborative way. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes when I'm leading a training or retreat I invite people to, you know, break up into trios for, you know, however long. if it's more than a couple of minutes, I really in your trio, please physically move yourself so you're facing each other. And if I don't say that, and it's a group of people that were sitting next to each other, they'll just stay sitting next to each other and they won't like turn and actually face each other. Kate McCaffrey: ⁓ mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Like, okay, y'all, just take l seconds to shift your chair and changes the conversation. Kate McCaffrey: Sure, yeah. It does and and it changes the relationship, I think, in the conversation too. So one of the things I like to do at the end of sort of my conversations with my guests is to do a little bit of a rapid fire question around sort of thinking about, you know, really quickly, like twists for you. So not super long or not complex, but You know, I think one of the things as we enter into summer mode, and I know many are still, you know, in school or not quite in summer mode yet, but wondering, you know, how do you creative with your own time and how do you have fun in order to kind of regenerate yourself in the work that you do? Amy Climer, Ph.D.: I I have learned that I love making things could be all sorts of things. My I do I've kind of created a wood shop in my garage so I build things. I mean even just like I just build a front gate for our porch so that we have this puppy so then the puppy can't get off the porch and we can just like let ⁓ wander around and I love building stuff. So I've kind of been getting into woodworking the last few years, which is is a lot a lot of fun. Kate McCaffrey: ⁓ nice. Nice. That's great. And it gives you that space too to kind of do your own process probably too. And so how would you describe your own creativity? Amy Climer, Ph.D.: would I describe it? I I've learned that when I have an idea and I'm thinking, like, okay, I'm gonna move on this this one. I tend to be someone that likes to think about it for a while. ⁓ I'm not, even though so in this this foresight profile, I'm a high ideator, so I always have lots of ideas. I don't understand ⁓ not ideas. And then also a high implementer, so I really like to do the thing. Kate McCaffrey: Mm, mm-hmm. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: But I find that it helps me to just like ponder, think, like let it percolate and simmer. when I don't rush into it, it's actually leads to a better outcome, better product, whatever I'm working on. and so I used to get frustrated by that, and I've learned that I ⁓ it's really nice. I I've kind of let myself have that space when when I can. I mean, sometimes you know, there's deadlines or whatever. ⁓ but Kate McCaffrey: Mm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's great. I think that matters, right, when we think about our own intentions too. And thinking about summer, what's your favorite summertime activity or event that you do when the weather gets better? Amy Climer, Ph.D.: love going camping. And so my wife and I do a lot of camping and we have some friends we camp with. Sometimes we go on our own. yeah, just I I live in Asheville, North Carolina, so a lot of just gorgeous places like an hour away. it's really fun. Yeah. So I love getting out in the place. Mm-hmm. Kate McCaffrey: Sure. Yeah, that's great. So time outside. Me too. I think my partner often will call me the fresh air child because I always want to be outside and spent my summers as a kid outside. And so now I any chance I get, I try and do that. So me too. Amy, as we wrap up here, is there if you were to have people kind of think about, you know, one thing about being deliberate about creativity with their teams, what would you suggest they do if they can do it today? Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Awesome. I love it. I would say take a look at your team meetings and how you're running them. And is there a small shift you can change? Maybe it's how you open the meeting or a small activity that you do. ⁓ there's lots of ideas in my book, Deliberate Creative Teams, which you can find anywhere books are sold. ⁓ there's lots of ideas in there. But yeah, I think thinking like what's that one what's something you could do in your team meetings to be more deliberate about creativity. Kate McCaffrey: That's great. And I want to encourage people to check out both your book and then your website has a lot of resources and information and as well as how to get the information. And I think we didn't really get into this, but even if you're working in a virtual or hybrid setting, there's opportunities to build creativity into the virtual world and the virtual workplace too, which I appreciate given that so many are working both physically and apart these days. And so I think how do we do that both for virtual Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Absolutely. Kate McCaffrey: communities as well as in-person teams. Well, and I really appreciate you spending some time with me today, Amy. It was great to get to know you and to get to know about your work. And I think, you know, if there are people out there who are thinking about how do I be more creative with my team, we have lots of changes going on and lots of problems to solve, where does creativity and innovation fit for them? And I would encourage them to think about that and check out our resources in the show notes. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Yeah. Awesome. Kate McCaffrey: So thanks so much for spending some time with me. I appreciate it very much. Amy Climer, Ph.D.: Thank you so much, Kate. I it's great to be here.