บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Tamar Rogoff discusses her journey to being a dancer, choreographer and filmmaker

and along the way, I tried to make my own work um about the beauty of difference, about um how do you work choreographically without telling people how they should dance and how they should look. 00:03:47.519 --> 00:04:08.479 So I really feel like the beginning from the dancing in the living room to where I am now, like a lot of years later, um was dedicated to giving people an opportunity that that was, you know, not so judgmental, where differences counted for a positive thing. 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:47.439 And you know, so then, but I I went through the ringer because I went to the High School Performing Arts, which is the fame school, which was so much body shaming, so much, you know, you get in there when you're 12 and you're flat just did no hips, and then suddenly, you know, for me especially, because I went into um puberty early, your body changes, and suddenly there are these breasts that jump, there's all these things that um that make it hard to fit into whatever mold, you know. 00:04:47.600 --> 00:05:02.560 And that school, you know, it's sort of notorious, but um it really left its mark on me, and I graduate high school and I decide I'm never dancing again, you know. 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:10.319 So as I got to college, I I realized really that's my language, and I don't really speak anything else. 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:11.840 Like I don't want to go to gym. 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:12.720 What's a volleyball? 00:05:12.960 --> 00:05:24.879 I was like, so right from day one, I started teaching the dance classes for one credit, you know, and I got pulled back right back to my dance. 00:05:25.280 --> 00:05:34.879 But um, you know, that thought to leave it and then not being able to leave it gave me that sense of who I am. 00:05:35.200 --> 00:05:40.800 I identify as a dancer, and I'll never, I'll never be able to deny that. 00:05:41.280 --> 00:05:41.680 Yeah. 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:50.560 It's interesting because the word should, what you should be, what you should do, what you should look like is such a part of the dance world. 00:05:50.800 --> 00:06:08.960 And how sad, how sad it could have been if you would that would have killed your joy of dance, you know, because um because you felt judgment about your body or you know, certain things. 00:06:09.200 --> 00:06:16.080 And I'm assure you when you went to the high school performing arts, was it the one on 46th Street? 00:06:16.400 --> 00:06:16.800 Right. 00:06:17.200 --> 00:06:19.520 So it was the the original one. 00:06:19.840 --> 00:06:21.200 Yes, yes. 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:26.720 And and how wonderful that you in college discovered that. 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:30.879 It's interesting because I grew up in a in a dancing school, literally. 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:36.000 My mom lived, I we lived above the dancing school, and my mom taught. 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:38.720 And so I didn't know anything different. 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:44.560 There was no option, there was nothing that I just danced, and that was all I knew. 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:59.120 And it wasn't until I left home and and then I taught through college, and it wasn't until I left home and didn't have a dance studio to go to where I was like, I can't be without it, you know. 00:06:59.280 --> 00:07:04.400 And so, like you, I feel like I will always have the identity of dancing. 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:10.800 I'm going back to teaching this year at my old studio that I owned for 25 years. 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:14.400 Um but you know, I think there is that identity. 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:20.640 You'd have to have many other identities, but there is that identity that once you're a dancer, always a dancer. 00:07:20.960 --> 00:07:21.439 Yeah. 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:40.160 And it's a privilege, and you know, it's uh it has so much going for it, and then it's a responsibility not not to carry on any of the mistakes of the things that hurt you, not to go teach the way you were taught, not to even choreograph the way I was caught, you know. 00:07:40.400 --> 00:07:46.080 So uh I I think it's you know, some kids get to college, they think, what do I want to be? 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:48.879 Well, I always knew what I wanted to be. 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:52.480 Um, it it wasn't like it was a big choice. 00:07:52.640 --> 00:07:57.600 And I think that's in a way a nice thing to know that you're an artist. 00:07:58.080 --> 00:08:04.240 And um I guess in the high school performing arts, the being an artist wasn't so important. 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:09.200 They they wanted you to be a technician, you know. 00:08:09.280 --> 00:08:13.840 They wanted, then they said later you'll be an artist, you know, later. 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:29.439 But um, you know, I did, I really did try to escape a few times in my life because um one wonderful thing was that when I grew up dancing in the 60s, Martha Graham herself was my teacher. 00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:41.120 Alvin Ailey himself taught me revelations and a sake, all these amazing, amazing forces of nature in the dance world, I got to study with. 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.720 Um so that that was wonderful. 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:57.360 But when I went to, you know, I I once went to a studio and I I guess I I rented it and I was going to choreograph something and I couldn't think of anything to do. 00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:01.600 I said, okay, I'll do one of this Martha Graham step draw. 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:03.919 I'll do, you know, one triplet. 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:05.039 No, I'll do three. 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:08.879 Well, no, I could, I could only hear her voice. 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:19.279 And because from the age of 11, I was in that Martha Graham school in the class, I really, really didn't know my own voice. 00:09:19.439 --> 00:09:23.599 I only knew hers, which was her authentic voice. 00:09:23.839 --> 00:09:33.679 And so I decided to go to India and leave this entire culture behind and study classical Indian dance, which

is what I did. 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:37.279 And the whole world was turned upside down. 00:09:37.439 --> 00:09:39.360 It was one teacher to one student. 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:41.599 There weren't 30 of us, right? 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:52.959 And um and he was very much uh connected to my improvement and all the things that I would perform. 00:09:53.199 --> 00:09:58.559 And it one guru to one student was very, very different. 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:08.959 And in India, you know, the whole sense of the dance is cultural and religious, and at the end of the performance, my teacher would come out and take a bow. 00:10:09.199 --> 00:10:11.439 So there was less ego in it. 00:10:11.599 --> 00:10:22.719 You were going through something that had come not from Martha Graham, but had come from thousands of years of, you know, the temple dancers. 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:33.439 And and and I studied this, and I happened to have perfect flatter feet for slapping the floor, which were absolutely the wrong feet for everything else. 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:40.240 I had hips, breasts, not very big, but still that's what they wanted. 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:45.519 And my face was a little thin, but I tried to eat as much as I could, you know. 00:10:45.599 --> 00:10:59.120 It was just a completely different world, you know, and older people were revered for all that they had performed and in the storytelling part of this Bharat Natchim dance. 00:10:59.439 --> 00:11:05.439 And my teacher had never met anybody who went home and practiced the way I did. 00:11:05.599 --> 00:11:19.679 So I got to dance for the Maharaja of Benares and I got to dance in the hotels for the tourists, and I kind of had a whole counter experience to the American or to the Western one. 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:26.719 And I learned a lot about, you know, doing something for the sense of the art. 00:11:27.439 --> 00:11:45.439 Um, you know, I came back because I really did miss my colleagues and my other dancers, and I I was able to, in a way, wipe the slate clean a bit and begin, you know, begin finding my own voice at that point. 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:54.399 Yeah, it's it's interesting because I think dancers are molded. 00:11:54.719 --> 00:12:00.959 You can teach technique, but artistry is something completely different, you know? 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:11.279 And it and so, and so many times people are driven or drilled into technique, but that other piece is missing. 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:16.639 And that I always tell I always tell students, that's what the audience connects with. 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:23.120 They can't, they don't know technique, but they know if they connect with the person on stage. 00:12:23.439 --> 00:12:24.480 Yeah, I agree. 00:12:24.719 --> 00:12:28.240 And I think if you're very technical, that almost separates you. 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:30.719 The audience says, oh, well, I could never do that. 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:33.039 You know, that makes a kind of dissonance.

00:12:33.199 --> 00:12:45.360 But then when you bring in the soul and, you know, who you really are and your emotions, then you're doing, you're expressing for them something that is, you know, our common heritage. 00:12:45.439 --> 00:12:56.719 We're all born with emotions and souls, and um, so I I I totally agree that that's the ingredient that an audience sees. 00:12:57.039 --> 00:12:57.679 Yeah. 00:12:58.079 --> 00:13:08.079 What um so you came back, was it hard to re-engage into you know, the Western way of doing things? 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:19.679 Or like, did you bring the things from India that you learned back and made it part of your choreography? 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:35.199 Well, you know, it's first of all, I was lucky that there was a uh Gene Eerdman and Joseph Campbell had a theater that they called the Theater of the Open Eye, and it was a very um open to the world kind of place. 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:44.079 Um, and they brought my teacher, and for a while I continued to perform the classical Indian dance. 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:53.439 But um, but once he was gone, I would first of all I'm an American and I couldn't carry it, and I wanted to do my own work. 00:13:53.679 --> 00:14:10.719 So um so then I I you know I joined that company, which was a little more like La Mama Theater in New York, a little more international, not just, and also looking at different cultures and their arts. 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:18.639 And I study, I was in puppet things, adult puppet things, and I um I had amazingly rich experiences. 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:25.360 And when I came back from India, I found that life had changed because I was in India for three years. 00:14:25.599 --> 00:14:36.399 So when I came back, when I left, things were sort of, you know, bellies in, you know, with certain um symmetries. 00:14:36.480 --> 00:15:03.439 And when I came back, um the modern dance world in New York was looking at pedestrian movement and was looking at um, you know, more relaxed bellies were kind of it was just that particular time in New York City with this idea of um what was experimental was so different than what I had left. 00:15:04.079 --> 00:15:08.559 And I, you know, I didn't exactly fit in for a change, you know. 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:11.919 I was again a little bit, you know, different. 00:15:12.319 --> 00:15:20.399 And um yeah, so I think the thing that I've loved always is storytelling. 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:25.360 And storytelling is the basis of the classical Indian dance. 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:34.159 But in this world that I found in the 1970s and 80s in New York City, you were not storytelling, it was not what you're supposed to do. 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:42.959 It was abstract work lines, and and for quite a while I I did not feel like I did fit in. 00:15:43.199 --> 00:16:08.000 But I went my own way and I did my own storytelling and and you know, just started in those years to to have more confidence and did performances with people

who I would consider different than your usual, let's say, um, cast of a modern dance or ballet performance. 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:13.599 I brought in people who were actors and dancers, and I mixed that. 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:25.039 I brought in uh people with disabilities and I worked with the idea of um the beauty in all the different kinds of bodies. 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:30.719 And so I started to find my own style, that's which is exactly why I went to India. 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:37.039 Um and and so that's sort of the birthplace of what I do now. 00:16:37.599 --> 00:16:51.039 I I I um I made this, I got this idea to do something called body scripting, um, which is something I do, and I no one else really does it or calls it that. 00:16:51.439 --> 00:17:00.559 And body scripting is a way to choreograph um where you tell the dancer the place of origin of a movement. 00:17:00.719 --> 00:17:08.720 Like I want you to, what part of your script would be the space between your thumb and your next finger? 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:10.720 That's one part of the script. 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:21.039 Then the other part of the script is maybe your sternal and all these names of things that we never really spoke of, the bones and the different. 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:27.120 I started to really love the body anatomically and to start to understand it. 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:38.319 And I would make these scripts, and the dancer's job was to focus on the place I was telling them and to investigate it. 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:48.640 So I wasn't telling them how to dance, what to do, or what to look like, but I was guiding them through this um this body script. 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:53.119 And I've been doing that now for, I don't know, many, many, many years. 00:17:53.359 --> 00:18:12.000 And um I I also work sometimes in with film and with actors who have to play a part of having a disability or or something particular that they can use the body scripting um to get out of their own way of holding their bodies. 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:28.559 And it it's it's very you can learn it in about five minutes and then you know spend a lot of time trying to understand the voices inside your body and and also getting out of habitual patterns and how you hold yourself. 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:39.680 So you could be exploring like one clavicle, and it could be talking to one shoulder blade, and you could be, you know, working on the space between your two ankles. 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:47.359 You the space between your two ankles could turn into an arabesque, but it wouldn't start as do an arabesque. 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:48.000 Right. 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:48.879 Right. 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:57.599 So it's a way of giving a little of improv energy to something that is also set a bit. 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:04.879 Well, improv based on certain parts of the body, which is very interesting, you know. 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:17.440 Sometimes not only places, but spaces, like the space between your thumbnail and your ear, you know, so you work with the sense of the space and bringing it closer. 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:29.599 And everybody takes away everybody's self-consciousness because they really have to focus, you know, and once they're focused, the rest of the room disappears. 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:50.319 All other kinds of um, you know, critical voices just because you're so immersed in what you have to do, it's so specific, almost, I would say almost like a meditation, except for that it really moves, you know, and sometimes it's between, you know, your your wrist and the piano in the room. 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:52.639 So it goes out into space. 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:59.359 And I particularly use that um with people with disabilities. 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:09.039 And I one of my best films is called Enter the Fawn, F-A-U-N, you know, sort of from Najinski's Fawn. 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:21.759 But um it was just working with uh people who don't have technique to get so much more control of their line and everything through that. 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:40.000 Um and so that film became quite popular, it was on PBS a few times, and somebody in Spain watched it and decided to do a ballet school in Spain with children with cerebral palsy every Saturday. 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:46.399 And I've been going there for years to teach, and it is the most wonderful, joyous place. 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:49.519 And they all use body scripting, the kids. 00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:55.599 And I make a great big box, and inside I write elbow, eyelash, whatever. 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:59.440 And they pick from the box and then they have their body scripts, these kids. 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:03.839 And they they also learn a little bit about their own anatomy. 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:14.480 It's it's very um, I don't know, it helps them a great deal with the sense of I know my body. 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.000 I love my body, I listen to my body. 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:27.359 And um yeah, so I'm going to the school uh in October again and and watching all these kids over 10 years now. 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:29.279 Wow, that's very special. 00:21:29.440 --> 00:22:23.440 I mean, my mom, I told you she had a dancing school and she like worked with she worked at taught at a deaf school for 27 years dance, and she taught at like uh like cerebral palsy, orthopedically handicapped kids, and then she taught the blind, and um so growing up, I was exposed a lot to things like that because she would speak about it because people weren't really doing it in the 60s, and so you know it's like very special, very special, and I think that's the part of welcoming everybody in to dance, um, and knowing that they can they can get something out of it, you know. 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:25.839 It's something very special, I think. 00:22:26.159 --> 00:22:32.960 Yeah, and I think you get the essence of dance, which isn't, you know, that you

have a this particular technique. 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:34.639 It's what we were talking about. 00:22:34.879 --> 00:22:39.680 Everybody has a soul, everybody has the feelings, and and you see that. 00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:40.480 You see that. 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:47.279 And in fact, sometimes you see it better and clearer, and you know, and it means a lot. 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:53.519 So how did you get into filmmaking? 00:22:54.399 --> 00:23:10.399 Well, I think the first moment that I thought to become a filmmaker was I did a piece in Eastern Europe, and it was a piece that I was making because I hadn't known till I was a grown-up. 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:25.119 I had been teaching in um Lithuania, and I um and I just went to visit this place where I knew my family came from, and it was in Belarus. 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:38.879 And in that moment of being in my late 30s, early 40s, I met people who knew my family and told me about the Holocaust, which I had not connected my family with the Holocaust. 00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:45.920 And there were 2,500 people killed on that certain day, buried in that forest that I went to visit. 00:23:46.159 --> 00:23:50.639 And so I wanted to come back and make a piece. 00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:04.799 And I, you know, it was so far away, and I thought nobody's gonna see this. 00:24:04.879 --> 00:24:07.359 I didn't even think anybody local would see it. 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:10.399 It turned out people came from all over. 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:17.519 They came from Moscow and to Belarus, which which is, you know, now it would be impossible to do it. 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:23.119 But um I thought, well, maybe I should have a camera crew, maybe I should document it. 00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:25.200 And so I did. 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:28.639 And uh that became my first film. 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:37.039 And uh I had to raise a lot of money and I had to enter sort of a whole new whole new world. 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:42.319 Um, but but that film was I had a wonderful editor, Daisy Wright. 00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:46.480 And so that was my first film, and then I did that several times. 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:50.720 I worked on pieces and then made documentaries. 00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:57.839 So the voice to hear the voices of the people who were involved and um Enter the Fawn is another film. 00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:12.879 And I don't know, it's it's great because you've got the process of editing, you know, which you never have when you when you do a performance, you know, it's got its 15 performances, then it's over, it's gone. 00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:15.519 It's over, you know, dances like that. 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:32.799 Um and this way you you could live with it and you could, you know, manipulate it a little bit so that um I don't know, you get to uh sorry about this, you get you get to keep to keep working uh after something is finished. 00:25:32.879 --> 00:25:41.519 I find, I don't know about you, but when like when a piece is finished, it's not really finished, it's just at that moment when it has to be shown, right? 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:48.079 You could be working on it longer, and in retrospect, you go, oh, I wish I had done that, or I wish I had done that. 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:54.079 So so making films is a little slower process, a little bit more. 00:25:54.399 --> 00:25:59.279 First of all, there's no one in the room, at least you know, there aren't the performers. 00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:05.599 Um and uh yeah, so I I also love to work on films. 00:26:06.159 --> 00:26:18.159 And we just got news that um I did choreography for a film called Run Amok, and it's gonna be distributed in movie theaters pretty soon, in a few months, yeah. 00:26:18.399 --> 00:26:20.879 And so I did the choreography for that. 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:29.759 I've done I've done like coaching for actors about movement, and um I love being on film sets. 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:44.319 You know, it's it's just a kind of magnificent attempt for so many people involved, so much collaboration, you know, and and I'm not, you know, I'm not in charge of raising the money. 00:26:44.639 --> 00:26:55.279 I usually wear all the hats and go absolutely crazy trying to raise the money, do all the things that um they have to do besides choreograph and direct. 00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:59.599 So when I step into someone else's project, I'm thrilled. 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:05.039 Um when is Run Amok coming out? 00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:13.359 Um they just it just got um it I'm not sure, so I have to keep in touch with you about it. 00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:18.240 But um probably I think I think maybe in the fall, okay. 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:20.079 It's gonna have a film release. 00:27:20.159 --> 00:27:28.319 And uh it's I got to do the musical that the high school kids put on, and it's very interesting film. 00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:51.839 But um yeah, and I I worked with Claire Danes um doing a film called Temple Grand, which is a beautiful film, and we worked uh with this, the actual Temple Grand in person, um, to make sure that she embodied um the the artistic experience. 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:57.039 So we did a lot of research together and she did an amazing job. 00:27:57.119 --> 00:27:58.639 And I use body scripting. 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:01.359 Oh yes, very cool. 00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:02.639 It was very cool. 00:28:02.879 --> 00:28:19.279 I mean it's simple, but it's cool because if cli if the actress always lifts her chin and the person who you're portraying always sings their chin, you just work with the space between the chin and the chest and figure it out. 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:23.039 Yeah, that's that makes a lot of sense. 00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:27.599 Now you have a new film that you're working on. 00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:35.119 Tell us about it because it's related to dancers and bodies, and so tell us about it. 00:28:35.519 --> 00:29:03.519 Well, um, so the the piece that it's

based on was called Drop Dead Gorgeous, and it was kind of my way of admitting and realizing and wanting to work with the idea that I'm still affected by, I mean, certainly not as much as when I was younger, but there's still the voices in my head that say, you have to be thin, you have to be this, you have to be that. 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:27.039 You know, and I see that I have children and grandchildren, and I feel it hurts me that they are embodying still so many of those ideas that our culture promotes so much, you know, really sort of driven by money ideas of how you're supposed to look. 00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:28.960 It's still very much here. 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:36.720 And so this piece was an attempt for me to work with three different dancers who all have different body types. 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:47.039 You know, one curvy dancer, magnificent dancer, one older dancer, and one young, very thin ballet dancer. 00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:58.879 And these three women, um, the story was of um they're on a television show where they have to compete and win the perfect body. 00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:09.279 And if the old person, she can win, like by her points, younger, she could lose 16 years of her age or 20, depending on how many points. 00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:11.359 So it's a kind of satire. 00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:17.359 And then it goes so far, and actually, it's one of the most painful pieces I've ever done. 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:39.519 And I don't usually go in this direction so much, but the whole thing explodes, and it goes into what I call the the place where all the women were accepting each other, where they where they lived in in a way without this um framework of who you should be and how you should look. 00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:51.920 And um, and it wasn't just about women, it was also the um the gay master, the guy, the master of ceremonies, was getting a perk. 00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:57.279 He was he felt he was too short, and each year he would gain an inch on his height. 00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:04.480 So he'd been working there for eight years, and and I thought I was making this up, and then I found out it's actually a real thing. 00:31:04.639 --> 00:31:11.680 People lengthen their their legs in a terrible, terrible, painful way. 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:47.440 So, anyway, so this was the piece that I was working on, and I always like to consult with experts in the field, and that's when I went um to eating disorders and looking at that field and um and trying to uh work with my relative, Judith Brisman, who's written a wonderful book and who's very prominent in the field, and she was my advisor, and she would come to rehearsals and sort of tell me, well, the reaction would have been this, not quite that. 00:31:47.839 --> 00:32:02.799 And I so it was she she guided me, and um the point was for us to to relook at this, to see it, to say, I I'm stepping off this ladder. 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:05.440 This is not a place where I need

to be. 00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:11.759 I know that it would be so hard for any of us, um, but that was my attempt. 00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:25.200 And so it's not really a film, but it's more like I'm taking the footage and I'm trying to make it useful for people who might gain something from the message. 00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:32.720 Um, and so I'm meeting with people in that community who treat eating disorders and who know more about it. 00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:50.639 Maybe we will um maybe we will put some narration over it or maybe make a study guide so that see what, you know, because I I know that in the field of eating disorders, it's very hard to make positive strides. 00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:59.440 It's it's a struggle for for people who you know have to um heal from this. 00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:03.599 So art is always a way, it's a different way in. 00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:23.519 And sometimes something you read or a movie you see can have a big impact, you know, whereas a doctor or a medical environment sometimes isn't isn't the perfect thing for somebody. 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:26.960 So this is going to be, it's in process. 00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:38.960 And yeah, I don't I don't know, but I would be so happy if it was useful to start conversations about this, even between therapists. 00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:56.319 Uh yeah, I I mean I absolutely think so because there's there is I always try to tell people there's a there's a place everywhere for people and dance, but I feel like there's definitely people get pigeonholed into a certain place. 00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:06.399 And when I work with eating disorders, I really try to talk to them about the fact that you know your body is gonna change throughout your life. 00:34:06.639 --> 00:34:17.039 And, you know, and so part of it is feeding that soul part of you so that you have a better it like to me, it's healing from the inside out. 00:34:17.200 --> 00:34:21.280 Uh, whether it's it in to me, it's a lot like dancing. 00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:23.920 I say to dancers the same thing. 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:31.760 It's you have to be able to connect with your body in order to be able to share with the audience. 00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:41.599 Like the elevator has to stop, not just up here for the choreography, but it has to stop, start, you know, has to connect to the the heart and the soul. 00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:45.760 And um, and it's the same for eating disorders. 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:57.199 And so, like people, I love the fact that you did people from different parts of their life, but I do think people are really impacted by our society. 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:16.880 And it, you know, we always hope we're getting better at it and being less judgmental or less having ideas of what people should look like, or versus accepting people, you know, for who they are and people being able to accept accept themselves for who they are. 00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:18.400 Right, right. 00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:21.759 And I mean, there is no perfect body. 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:25.039 Our bodies are so magnificent. 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:30.960 Um, the idea of what's going on under the skin is so amazing. 00:35:31.119 --> 00:36:23.039 All the calibrations we do when we go to half-toe, like every part of the body is calibrating how we do that in such a genius way to appreciation of just how absolutely exquisite and and it but you know, I mean it's so complex, but if you really feel the sense of your body, so what I what I teach is a kind of experiential anatomy, and um that feeling that not looking at a textbook, most of the information about the body is gained from corpses who are not, you know, who are not as we are, they don't have any gravitational stuff, or even skeletons that are hung up in a doctor's office, their heels aren't even touching the ground. 00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:31.440 And so we get ideas of what we look like inside, but it's so much more complex with all the systems. 00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:54.960 And the body, the the body scripting, it takes little pieces, and you spend time and find the sense of different places in the body, and then you realize kind of as you put them together and you dance that they're there's an enormous group of helpers inside you, helping you do everything. 00:36:55.119 --> 00:37:01.599 And for me, there's a huge gratitude, a gratitude that, you know, just to our bodies. 00:37:01.759 --> 00:37:04.079 And how why are we dissing them? 00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:07.840 Our bodies are so absolutely amazing. 00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:13.599 Um any place you work, digestion, respiration, all these things. 00:37:13.759 --> 00:37:28.079 And and I do think that dancers are waking up more to um alignment, you know, and all those things that we when I was in high school performing arts, I had to hold my teacher's keys. 00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:32.719 There were about 60 keys in my hand, so I would remember my arms. 00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:39.199 It was so humiliating, but she never said what to remember, probably because she didn't know. 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:40.559 Yeah. 00:37:40.719 --> 00:38:19.840 But now someone knows why you hold your arms and how you, you know, so I just uh I think I can as I teach people are in awe, become in on in awe of their bodies and become curious and inquisitive, and know that they can have a sensuality, they can, you know, so all that is quiets down the the sort of the voice of uh you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to color your hair, you need to have a facelift, you need to go. 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:30.000 So I um I don't know, the I'm I'm not finished yet, so I hope I can work on and on to go get a little further. 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:39.119 But the idea of celebrating the individuality and the different bodies, it's an appreciation of our lives, you know. 00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:41.360 Yeah, I totally agree. 00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:45.440 Gratitude, appreciation, our bodies are amazing. 00:38:46.320 --> 00:39:09.440 We need to be thankful for what it does on a daily basis, not just as a dancer, but also as just a human, you know, and how like for my angel clients and that are dancers, I'm like, hey, you need the fat in between the organs so that you can jump, you know, otherwise they're bouncing on top of each other. 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:24.719 But it's like as dancers, it's like really have that appreciation for everything that your body does for you and how it is able to jump and turn and do all the things you ask of it. 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:27.199 Um it's pretty amazing. 00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:37.599 Yeah, you know, and I don't think when I was 20 I thought that, obviously, but the older I get, the more appreciative I am and grateful for my body. 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:39.440 Yeah, me too. 00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:41.599 I agree with you completely. 00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:44.480 Well, I want to take I want to thank you. 00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:46.400 Uh I love the work you're doing. 00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:56.639 I think that um it could it could really be helpful to the eating disorder world. 00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:00.639 So thank you for doing that and to the dance world. 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:10.960 Um, because the dance world still could use some help in uh in not being so judgmental uh as you know. 00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:19.360 Uh but uh I just want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us and talk about your work and all the things that you've done. 00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:21.759 Your life is so interesting. 00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.440 And so thank you. 00:40:23.759 --> 00:40:24.960 Oh, you're so welcome. 00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:28.159 It's really a joy to be able to speak about it. 00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:29.119 Yeah. 00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:41.519 So for the dance, for the dancers, for the listeners of Tutu Thin, as always, I hope you have enjoyed uh listening to our podcast. 00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:56.079 And uh if you have questions or want to reach me, you can reach me through dontheodore.com, tutothin.com, mothermenandme.com, or at my Instagram at dawn.smith.theodore. 00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:00.800 Thank you for always being a listener and have a wonderful day.