บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Behind the Book: Enough for Today with Donna Barber

more than 40 years, Donna has led programs to develop spirit-led social wear, community-minded leaders through the local church, nonprofit schools, and the university. 03:19.715 --> 03:33.365 [SPEAKER_03]: As a licensed minister, Donna served as worship leader for 12 years at Community Live Church, part of the preaching team at IMAGO Day Eastside in Portland, and finally as preacher and elder board chair at the Gross Church in Portland, Oregon. 03:33.825 --> 03:41.170 [SPEAKER_03]: Donna was also the first African-American elected and to serve as chair of the David Douglas School Board in Portland. 03:41.470 --> 03:54.099 [SPEAKER_03]: She is the author of Bread for the Resistance, 40 devotions for justice people, a readers' choice nominee, and the recently released devotional enough for today, for the reflections for surviving the wilderness. 03:54.599 --> 04:07.228 [SPEAKER_03]: Presently, she serves as co-founder and executive director of the Voices Project and the Voices School for Liberation and Transformation and as a leadership consultant, specializing in leadership development of BIPOC youth. 04:07.808 --> 04:09.690 [SPEAKER_03]: Donna and her husband, Leary Barber. 04:09.831 --> 04:15.558 [SPEAKER_03]: Now again, reside in Atlanta, Georgia, and together, they have six adult children. 04:15.938 --> 04:17.720 [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to the table. 04:18.261 --> 04:21.886 [SPEAKER_03]: Donna, I'd be writing them devotional's Barber. 04:22.086 --> 04:22.687 [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome. 04:22.727 --> 04:23.387 [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome. 04:24.778 --> 04:52.466 [SPEAKER_03]: You're like a human being, I'll take it, I'll take it, I'll take it, I'll take it, I'll take it and she would be right in the roses and y'all need to buy it, I'll just give her some of theなんです that you know, I don't, I am curious, you know, I remember your devotional bread for the resistance and it came right on time, I think you have impeccable timing and we know it's God's timing ultimately, but I remember that devotional coming out 04:53.046 --> 04:58.371 [SPEAKER_03]: It seemed to be in the throes of the Black Lives Matter movement. 04:58.432 --> 05:03.216 [SPEAKER_03]: You could correct me if my timeline is wrong, but it felt like we were in the throes of that. 05:03.256 --> 05:07.360 [SPEAKER_03]: You just seemed like weekly, if not a couple of times. 05:07.400 --> 05:12.105 [SPEAKER_03]: We were hearing about another Black person being killed by the past. 05:12.325 --> 05:14.828 [SPEAKER_03]: And now you have released enough for. 05:15.308 --> 05:26.531 [SPEAKER_03]: today, 40 reflections for surviving the wilderness, at a time that again feels very timely, a providential lot. 05:26.671 --> 05:34.453 [SPEAKER_03]: The tyros time is just kind of jumping out to me and I'm curious about because both those devotional seem very applicable to our time now. 05:35.053 --> 05:41.915 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm wondering if you could put those two devotional in conversation, bread for the resistance and enough for today, 05:42.315 --> 05:51.698 [SPEAKER_03]: Where are the points of convergence and divergence particularly where we are now with all that's going on with the authoritarian regime and all the things? 05:52.939 --> 06:02.562 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I am amazed by God's timing and how, of course, he knows what we will need. 06:03.272 --> 06:10.883 [SPEAKER_02]: before we do, before we've gotten to the point of need, he has already prepared something to sustain us when we get there. 06:12.306 --> 06:18.495 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think in both cases, that's definitely been the case, because I am not a fortune teller. 06:19.276 --> 06:27.746 [SPEAKER_02]: I can tell and especially you know with the writing process, the book is done a year before it's released, right? 06:27.946 --> 06:34.954 [SPEAKER_02]: And so in the case of Brad, I finished writing that in the fall, 06:35.900 --> 06:56.296 [SPEAKER_02]: no, it was released in the fall of 2019 and it was October and we had planned out a book tour and all that and then we got to the start of 2020 and everything closed down and I thought wow that's going to be then to the book we can't we can't talk to people we can't get out to talk to people about it 06:57.317 --> 07:01.638 [SPEAKER_02]: is just here sitting on the shelf. 07:02.238 --> 07:20.862 [SPEAKER_02]: But because it was God's time, then for the people that did start receiving it, they started sharing it and with other people and it was speaking to where people were, people were shut in at home and they were looking for something and we had been 07:26.424 --> 07:37.411 [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember leading when I was writing the book because of the work we do with the voice project, we get to spend time in a lot of different places talking to leaders of color. 07:38.331 --> 07:47.777 [SPEAKER_02]: And talking to people who were discouraged and angry and struggling and wanting to give them something. 07:48.642 --> 07:52.624 [SPEAKER_02]: to sustain them and to encourage them. 07:53.064 --> 07:59.268 [SPEAKER_02]: But also, sometimes people who were feeling like, why do we have to keep the rules? 07:59.688 --> 08:01.609 [SPEAKER_02]: Why do we have to follow and do the thing? 08:01.649 --> 08:03.350 [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody else just does whatever they want. 08:04.191 --> 08:06.292 [SPEAKER_02]: And I wanted to speak to that too. 08:06.852 --> 08:25.677 [SPEAKER_02]: and say that you know we're we're called to do good but we have to do it in God's way and in God's time and we can't just do whatever we want regardless of what other people are doing so when it those two things were where they I want to encourage you and I want to keep you to stay in the fight 08:26.809 --> 08:37.996 [SPEAKER_02]: But to do it, guys, way and with enough for today, there was a sense of again, we were moving forward in time and now. 08:39.120 --> 08:41.462 [SPEAKER_02]: at the pandemic on top of that, right? 08:42.302 --> 08:50.647 [SPEAKER_02]: And

all that we were dealing with that and the deconstruction that was going on for people with faith. 08:51.447 --> 09:00.133 [SPEAKER_02]: And people who were trying to decide if they were still gonna be down with Jesus or whether they were walking away from that or just walking away from his people. 09:01.613 --> 09:07.357 [SPEAKER_02]: And so many times I was hearing people again as I was listening and talking to leaders, 09:07.917 --> 09:34.471 [SPEAKER_02]: and we just need to blow this up, blow the whole thing up, and I thought about all the things that we have been through as black people in particular, and all the things that we have endured throughout the history, it was often faith was the only thing that we had that we were holding onto, and it wasn't the faith of a slave master. 09:34.991 --> 09:39.396 [SPEAKER_02]: It was the faith that came to us in the Hush Harbor. 09:39.836 --> 09:46.543 [SPEAKER_02]: It was the faith that came to us to Richard Allen, who started, hey, we gonna start our own church. 09:46.743 --> 09:56.533 [SPEAKER_02]: It's that place that helped to sustain us through what was hard and difficult and painful all the way, 09:57.494 --> 10:08.259 [SPEAKER_02]: out of slavery, reconstruction, segregation, desegregation, civil rights, all of that, all of that was built on this thing. 10:08.939 --> 10:13.521 [SPEAKER_02]: And to say, let's throw it all away, we were leaving people with nothing. 10:14.521 --> 10:16.322 [SPEAKER_02]: They were in the midst of rubble. 10:17.843 --> 10:18.103 [SPEAKER_02]: Right? 10:18.223 --> 10:20.084 [SPEAKER_02]: Everything was blowing up. 10:20.604 --> 10:22.625 [SPEAKER_02]: And what were they going to stand on? 10:26.508 --> 10:33.463 [SPEAKER_02]: How do I speak to that Lord, what is it that you want to say to encourage people? 10:34.425 --> 10:45.949 [SPEAKER_02]: that yes, this is a hard time, and I remember myself praying and saying, Lord, can you deliver us from this kind of like, we're sorry with all the things that we did, we are sorry. 10:46.289 --> 10:54.652 [SPEAKER_02]: You can put these like help us, and having the sense that, no, this is a season, we're going to be in for a minute. 10:55.452 --> 11:00.334 [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be here for a while, and it's going to be, it may be hard for a while because 11:03.595 --> 11:05.736 [SPEAKER_02]: he is doing, he's the whole time doing a new thing. 11:06.596 --> 11:08.837 [SPEAKER_02]: And it will not be where we were. 11:09.077 --> 11:11.037 [SPEAKER_02]: It won't be the church where we were. 11:11.137 --> 11:14.578 [SPEAKER_02]: But it is a while yet before we will get to what we will be. 11:15.279 --> 11:22.841 [SPEAKER_02]: And so how do what is it that we need right now in this time? 11:23.160 --> 11:25.501 [SPEAKER_02]: in the wilderness and so wanting to speak to that. 11:25.561 --> 11:28.703 [SPEAKER_02]: So, both books were born out of this desire. 11:28.883 --> 11:45.833 [SPEAKER_02]: I see the struggle of people

that I care about and most importantly, people who are leading, who are pastors or nonprofit leaders or community leaders who are responsible for the care of other people and wanting to care for them. 11:46.818 --> 11:56.611 [SPEAKER_02]: And so in that way, the books intersect, they came from that same desire, um, but speaking to people at these particular pivotal times in history. 11:57.733 --> 11:58.153 [SPEAKER_01]: Beautiful. 11:58.193 --> 11:58.654 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. 11:59.540 --> 12:02.121 [SPEAKER_01]: very helpful and just incredibly timely, right? 12:02.181 --> 12:09.902 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I want to dig into the word or the concept or the location of wilderness, uh, don't it just for a moment? 12:10.022 --> 12:18.644 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we all affirmed, we talked about like, you know, we're in a wilderness and this will be going to be like we're all naughty. 12:19.364 --> 12:21.405 [SPEAKER_01]: But the listeners we're naughty, okay? 12:22.025 --> 12:24.866 [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, but I wonder for the person who 12:28.142 --> 12:37.365 [SPEAKER_01]: Could you help people to know or to see what would they notice if they were to look up and to be able to affirm the signs of wilderness? 12:37.705 --> 12:42.027 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that helps us to understand just how important this book is for this moment. 12:43.530 --> 13:04.770 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, um, when I think of wilderness, especially during the writing season, it was, you know, this dry place, this arid place, um, this barren land, it is a disorienting place, like, um, 13:05.136 --> 13:19.240 [SPEAKER_02]: It one of the things I talked about on the tour was like the feeling of that the things that have, that you, the tools that you've used in the past to help you navigate life are not working here. 13:19.480 --> 13:24.442 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, when you're driving and you get to an area where the signal goes out, 13:26.732 --> 13:40.359 [SPEAKER_02]: You've been relying on GPS, you've been trying to get somewhere, and now you can't rely on those same things, the things that have held you up before, maybe aren't working so well. 13:40.879 --> 13:49.884 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the vices in some cases that we've used to make us feel better to help us get through are not working so well now. 13:54.897 --> 14:14.614 [SPEAKER_02]: So that that that that that dryness that feeling of disorientation that that not being able to see where the next place necessarity necessarily of familiarity or comfort or safety is so far in the distance you can't see it yet. 14:16.476 --> 14:20.440 [SPEAKER_02]: And sometime and the fear that comes up. 14:21.287 --> 14:30.872 [SPEAKER_02]: the I'm afraid, I don't know because it's so unfamiliar, like those feelings, those senses to me, I'll speak to wilderness. 14:34.553 --> 14:37.835 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's good, you know, speaking about, you know, um, 14:39.087 --> 14:56.177 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, wilderness and dry and apparently the title, of course, of enough for today reminds me of, you know, man, you know, and how the Lord, how God, you know, I'm fed, you know, the Israelites with man every single day. 14:57.998 --> 15:01.519 [SPEAKER_03]: Not too much, not too little is just enough for that day. 15:02.159 --> 15:19.266 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm curious about how you see that apply to us now today, especially now in light of the economic situation we're dealing with with high inflation, rising gas prices, rising food prices, 15:20.288 --> 15:22.209 [SPEAKER_03]: just everything actually is going on. 15:22.269 --> 15:24.589 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like there's not an area that's untouched, right? 15:25.469 --> 15:44.874 [SPEAKER_03]: By this, I'm curious about why, why, why, why am, why am my mana on the why enough for today for for this time that that we're in what, what prompted that for you and how, how can we live into that as believers, particularly here in the west. 15:44.914 --> 15:46.695 [SPEAKER_03]: I think we, we struggle with consumption. 15:48.627 --> 15:52.868 [SPEAKER_03]: We struggle, I think, with maximizing everything, right? 15:52.888 --> 16:15.732 [SPEAKER_03]: People are moving into minimalism, but, you know, because we're such maximum, maximum, and so I'm curious about why, you know, what prompted you to think about that mana motif, and titled that book in this way enough for today, and how that applies to us now, and how we can live into that reality, given our current circumstances. 16:16.816 --> 16:27.398 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so it's funny that that wasn't the original title that I had for the book when I submitted it to the publisher. 16:27.998 --> 16:44.942 [SPEAKER_02]: I had originally called it living on mana on living on mana while you're waiting to get to Jubilee or something to that and so they didn't like that, but we started open the conversation as we started talking about. 16:45.517 --> 17:00.849 [SPEAKER_02]: the book and what it was speaking to and so we got to this title of enough for today which captures what it means to live on manna and I believe that part of this wilderness season 17:01.589 --> 17:08.991 [SPEAKER_02]: is about our return to a dependence on God and we'd like to, especially in the West. 17:09.231 --> 17:23.636 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, we'd like to think we have it all figured out and we make these extensive plans and we want to have our 5, 10, 20 year strategic plan of where we think we're going and how we are going to get there. 17:24.576 --> 17:27.037 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that infiltrates all areas of 17:30.578 --> 17:45.490 [SPEAKER_02]: And this time though, and wilderness time, when I think about Israel being leaving Egypt and going to their promised land, and that season in between, there was a learning season. 17:46.510 --> 17:48.932 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I've said Israel was not lost. 17:49.353 --> 17:54.316 [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't that they got lost, and they were trying to find their way for 40 years, right?

17:54.617 --> 17:57.999 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, no, there was an intention on God's part. 17:59.447 --> 18:00.631 [SPEAKER_02]: for that season. 18:01.172 --> 18:06.007 [SPEAKER_02]: And part of that was that they might know that he is God. 18:07.095 --> 18:19.359 [SPEAKER_02]: over and over and over again, as you're reading through the book of Exodus, you see God say, and then Pharaoh will know that I am the Lord. 18:19.679 --> 18:23.061 [SPEAKER_02]: And then Egypt will know that I am the Lord. 18:23.361 --> 18:26.602 [SPEAKER_02]: It is like over and over again, these things are going to happen. 18:27.062 --> 18:29.903 [SPEAKER_02]: And you want to know who I am when they happen. 18:30.603 --> 18:43.195 [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like the thing, the season that we're in right now, yes, people are grasping, how do I control your gas prices, food prices, housing prices, child care prices, all the things, right? 18:43.816 --> 18:46.639 [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to be able to manage it. 18:46.719 --> 18:49.702 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to feel like I'm in control, because like you're not, 18:50.760 --> 19:04.046 [SPEAKER_02]: You're not, one of, there's a mantra that I repeat for myself is to remind me, and it's that I have nothing, I know nothing, I can do nothing, I am nothing without him. 19:04.807 --> 19:11.470 [SPEAKER_02]: But with God, I can do all things, and I repeat that for myself is like, 19:11.874 --> 19:14.895 [SPEAKER_02]: This is the reminder when we start getting carried away. 19:14.975 --> 19:15.355 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 19:15.515 --> 19:16.356 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I got this. 19:16.836 --> 19:17.896 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so brilliant. 19:18.256 --> 19:19.577 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so talented. 19:19.977 --> 19:26.339 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so, and we may be all those things, but that's not the reason for our success. 19:27.119 --> 19:29.700 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think God is again making himself known. 19:30.261 --> 19:34.102 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're gonna remember that I am God and you are not. 19:35.128 --> 19:40.733 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and so there's this day to day when when God said I'm going to give you enough man enough for today. 19:41.434 --> 19:44.776 [SPEAKER_02]: Even in the writing process of the book, I had a whole thing. 19:44.816 --> 19:49.000 [SPEAKER_02]: I kept trying to outline, like, okay, this is what the book's going to be about. 19:49.020 --> 19:50.381 [SPEAKER_02]: There's going to be these sections. 19:50.421 --> 19:57.127 [SPEAKER_02]: There's going to be these chapters, which is a common thing that you do, um, and it would not work. 19:58.188 --> 20:00.650 [SPEAKER_02]: Every time I would, I would sit down and I try to, 20:01.384 --> 20:02.645 [SPEAKER_02]: start working with that. 20:03.085 --> 20:03.926 [SPEAKER_02]: I got nothing. 20:04.046 --> 20:11.750 [SPEAKER_02]: I was spent day staring at blank white computer screen and being frustrated and saying this is not working. 20:11.790 --> 20:18.454 [SPEAKER_02]: What is the

problem or it's start writing and I get so far and be like, this is terrible and I didn't throw that away. 20:19.114 --> 20:27.999 [SPEAKER_02]: And Lord, what isn't I could pray and God was like, no, I had to let go of my outline and all 20:30.357 --> 20:52.493 [SPEAKER_02]: just let that go and let him give me peace by peace day by day what it was he wanted to say and I was talking I had a few friends that I was who were close female friends that I was meeting with during the writing process from time to time and I mentioned them in the dedication of the book. 20:53.330 --> 20:59.835 [SPEAKER_02]: and one of them was saying, Donna, it feels like the writing process itself is mana. 21:00.495 --> 21:05.058 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like God is giving you just what he's gonna give you to write today. 21:05.078 --> 21:12.643 [SPEAKER_02]: Man, I was like, oh my goodness, and the acceptance of that made all the difference. 21:13.023 --> 21:16.386 [SPEAKER_02]: The getting to the place where, okay, I'm not in control. 21:17.546 --> 21:19.808 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't figure out where this book is going. 21:24.048 --> 21:28.272 [SPEAKER_02]: I've started getting things and I'll say, why don't I don't just stand God, what does this have to do with that? 21:28.372 --> 21:32.396 [SPEAKER_02]: What do, how do these things fit together and God wasn't giving me that? 21:32.976 --> 21:34.058 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just right the words. 21:34.458 --> 21:41.004 [SPEAKER_02]: And my friends say, when you sit down at your keyboard, just let your fingers go, stop thinking so much. 21:41.505 --> 21:45.088 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's what I started to do and the words started to come. 21:46.661 --> 21:49.563 [SPEAKER_02]: And the pieces came together after the words were written. 21:49.643 --> 21:54.526 [SPEAKER_02]: Then it was like, oh, this goes with this, and this goes with that, and this makes sense. 21:56.167 --> 21:58.049 [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like that's where we are. 21:58.969 --> 22:06.694 [SPEAKER_02]: That we're trying to use our outline, and God's like, no, your outline is no longer valid. 22:06.854 --> 22:07.915 [SPEAKER_02]: It does not work here. 22:09.576 --> 22:11.177 [SPEAKER_02]: So that means you gotta depend on me. 22:11.477 --> 22:13.799 [SPEAKER_02]: You gotta get up every day and ask me, 22:16.135 --> 22:17.716 [SPEAKER_02]: How do I make it today? 22:18.636 --> 22:20.077 [SPEAKER_02]: What will work today? 22:23.139 --> 22:23.559 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 22:24.199 --> 22:33.124 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, as you name that I thought, that's just flat out true, and it's also the truth that we really, really struggle with. 22:33.244 --> 22:35.426 [SPEAKER_01]: And I, but it's just so true. 22:36.166 --> 22:37.647 [SPEAKER_01]: That's why we really struggle with it. 22:39.140 --> 22:47.004 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to press pause here folks with Donna Varver who is telling us about her new book enough for today. 22:47.704 --> 22:48.844 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're

going to take a short break. 22:48.864 --> 22:55.547 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be right back as we dig into where we are now and that God does have grace for us even in this wilderness. 22:58.960 --> 23:08.449 [SPEAKER_00]: Our NAACP Image Award-nominated book, Truths Table, Black Women's Musings on Life, Love, in Liberation, is making waves and shifting culture. 23:09.210 --> 23:16.536 [SPEAKER_00]: I close this book feeling like I had just partaken in a multi-course meal, filled with grace and the courage to carry on. 23:17.357 --> 23:20.318 [SPEAKER_00]: And I believe you'll finish this book feeling the same way. 23:20.998 --> 23:23.358 [SPEAKER_00]: Morgan Harper Nichols artists in poet. 23:23.898 --> 23:30.959 [SPEAKER_00]: By Truth's Table, black women's musings on life-loving liberation at our website, or wherever books are sold. 23:32.300 --> 23:36.380 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're back at the table with our dear sister, Donna, who is educating us. 23:37.200 --> 23:41.901 [SPEAKER_01]: And we are seeing how important this book is for the moment in the season that we're in. 23:41.941 --> 23:46.102 [SPEAKER_01]: And you just talked about honestly this mantra that you 23:46.952 --> 23:50.062 [SPEAKER_01]: That you saying as you were saying that mantra I was like, oh, Lord. 23:52.248 --> 24:02.635 [SPEAKER_01]: It's true, and also it truly makes us upset, like this, this agitation, because we do live in a mythology that we're like many gods, and we run and stuff, like we can't even run ourselves. 24:04.256 --> 24:12.441 [SPEAKER_01]: And so the truth of that, I think is just, oh, I think I think you can get us in knots, but the surrender to that can be so free. 24:12.481 --> 24:17.145 [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't mean that you're nothing, it means that you are all things in Christ. 24:18.597 --> 24:23.159 [SPEAKER_01]: That embrace, I think, is right at the core of what the gospel actually is. 24:23.700 --> 24:30.463 [SPEAKER_01]: So, Donna, I know, again, even as I thought about that mantra and I thought about the time, the wilderness time that we find ourselves in right now. 24:31.405 --> 24:36.391 [SPEAKER_01]: and how there are so many people who are just frustrated, big man, angry, right? 24:37.052 --> 24:43.400 [SPEAKER_01]: And who have experienced very real disappointment with institutions, with religious folks. 24:44.181 --> 24:49.007 [SPEAKER_01]: And in that instance, in some ways, I mean, they have not just an issue with, 24:49.587 --> 24:54.388 [SPEAKER_01]: the institutions that represent God, but God self, right? 24:55.049 --> 25:15.114 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I want you to share a little bit about what you've learned through your journey of daily, man, a daily provision to even create this book but throughout your own life with those who feel this deep sense of disillusionment right now and the encouragement that they will find in the wisdom that you're offering. 25:16.965 --> 25:35.762 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I think one of the things that I speak to in

one of the reflections is this I know Christina that there is a thing in psychology about you know if you are talking about yourself and a third person. 25:36.573 --> 25:38.597 [SPEAKER_02]: there's some concerns, right? 25:40.300 --> 25:46.673 [SPEAKER_02]: And, and I think with we acknowledge that we are the church. 25:47.565 --> 25:47.945 [SPEAKER_01]: way. 25:48.726 --> 25:51.208 [SPEAKER_02]: That is a big piece. 25:52.049 --> 25:56.192 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we're so often talking about themselves in the third person. 25:56.632 --> 26:04.178 [SPEAKER_02]: Like this in the church, that in the church, this, you know, you know, I'm a follower of Jesus. 26:04.418 --> 26:06.460 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, if you're a follower of Jesus, you are church. 26:07.924 --> 26:30.042 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, and so we are talking about ourselves as though we are not ourselves, and then at desire to to speak about churches, if it is not us, that we have not participated in it, that we have not allowed it to it, to it, taken from it, like, um, I think that that's 26:37.326 --> 26:53.678 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of the reflections that it's, it's not them, it's us, you know, and so we have to acknowledge that we are part of it and when we're talking about church that we are talking about ourselves. 26:56.013 --> 26:58.214 [SPEAKER_02]: And that begins, that's different. 26:58.254 --> 27:05.358 [SPEAKER_02]: If you have to acknowledge your place in the problem, because we all want to think, it's everybody else. 27:05.518 --> 27:07.179 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm not like that. 27:07.499 --> 27:21.868 [SPEAKER_02]: And even worse, the presentation of ourselves to the world as if we are the exception in every case, that, oh, they are this thing, they are that thing. 27:22.108 --> 27:24.209 [SPEAKER_02]: But not me, I'm the good one. 27:26.580 --> 27:36.542 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's, that's very problematic to me, so that they acknowledge meant that no, we are part of this. 27:36.602 --> 27:38.643 [SPEAKER_02]: There's two or three that's gathered together. 27:38.663 --> 27:51.365 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't care if you get saying, well, I worship, we get together with my few friends and we up those two or three together, then you church, you know, we all think we some special and different. 27:53.255 --> 27:58.058 [SPEAKER_02]: How do we, you know, how are we, how are we being different? 27:58.198 --> 28:03.621 [SPEAKER_02]: If we want church to be something else, then we have to be different. 28:04.282 --> 28:06.483 [SPEAKER_02]: We have to respond differently. 28:07.704 --> 28:09.165 [SPEAKER_02]: We have to love differently. 28:09.365 --> 28:11.286 [SPEAKER_02]: We have to be less judgmental. 28:11.686 --> 28:15.129 [SPEAKER_02]: We have to be more receiving and contributing. 28:15.169 --> 28:22.073 [SPEAKER_02]: And all the things that we're saying that church should be, we have to be in the name of Jesus. 28:23.611 --> 28:43.510 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's like we end up being that in

our name and in wanting, then the praise to come to us that, oh, you, the good one, when we're not, there's none righteous, not one, and trying to acknowledge that and help people to see that. 28:43.650 --> 28:46.993 [SPEAKER_02]: And then to see, yes, if we want the church to be different. 28:48.373 --> 29:00.997 [SPEAKER_02]: It starts with us being different and deciding how we're going to worship differently, how we're going to care for people differently, how we're going to serve and do good in the world. 29:01.137 --> 29:10.781 [SPEAKER_02]: Over and over, we see in Scripture saying, do good, how are we going to do that in a way that does not cause harm? 29:13.241 --> 29:14.742 [SPEAKER_02]: And it now I wish that we're off-lawed. 29:15.640 --> 29:41.233 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, and that's quite the needle to thread, you know, I believe you do it well, which, which leads me really to my question about just like your intention behind writing, you know, one thing that stood out to me about enough for today was, at least to me, it wasn't your typical devotion in that usually a devotional book that I'm used to, 29:42.313 --> 29:55.408 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, is a short, you know, a short entry, but also some little lines, you know, bed of lines, you know, at the end of that chapter for you to write or a couple of prompt questions, you know, for you to think and ponder. 29:55.869 --> 29:58.812 [SPEAKER_03]: But enough for today, I experience as 29:59.653 --> 30:13.683 [SPEAKER_03]: an invitation or own inventory, you know, based off of your own story and your own vulnerability and your own sharing, as well, brought you to, you know, writing, you know, enough for today. 30:14.244 --> 30:24.892 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm curious about your just your intention in writing this way, which it is beautifully written, and then also the way in which you are also left uplifting the black church, because I do think 30:29.916 --> 30:37.785 [SPEAKER_03]: Some people have left the faith, you know, some people have been trying to blow up, you know, in charge of these constructs, everything, right? 30:38.186 --> 30:39.908 [SPEAKER_03]: Some people have remained, right? 30:40.449 --> 30:44.874 [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm curious about what, you know, what's 30:45.795 --> 31:07.937 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, it's the Holy Spirit behind the staying power, but I'm curious about not only your writing process, you know, into and in your intention and choosing to write the devotional in this way and not with the prompts and with the, you know, the lives and for you can respond there's nothing wrong with that but I'm just curious about that, but then also the way in which you a steep the black church, particularly in a time where people are questioning. 31:08.477 --> 31:16.139 [SPEAKER_03]: The validity of the Black Church is the Black Church, you know, still needed, is it doing what it should do in light of everything that we have going on. 31:16.179 --> 31:25.741 [SPEAKER_03]: Can you speak to, you know, all of that and the ways in which enough for today actually, I think serves as a counterpoint to those arguments. 31:37.749 --> 31:55.085 [SPEAKER_02]: my quiet time with God in the morning and and I usually I'm looking at devotionals that have that more standard okay here's the verse is that you read here's the reflection about it here's the the little prayer sentence prayer to pray and 31:55.845 --> 32:03.870 [SPEAKER_02]: and maybe a question, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I find myself wanting more than that. 32:04.030 --> 32:06.991 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was reluctant to write initially. 32:08.192 --> 32:19.158 [SPEAKER_02]: It was different people saying to me because I would write newsletters for our nonprofit and get frustrated that people weren't 32:24.501 --> 32:26.142 [SPEAKER_02]: I saw enjoy rewriting. 32:26.843 --> 32:30.785 [SPEAKER_02]: I would talk about the writing, but they wouldn't talk about the giving. 32:31.146 --> 32:42.413 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it wasn't until, you know, I finally actually was in a conversation with the person who's now my editor at IB press and him saying, you know, what book would you want to write? 32:42.954 --> 32:49.138 [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, if I was going to write a book, I think I would write a devotional because I can never find a devotional that speaks. 32:50.095 --> 32:54.539 [SPEAKER_02]: to me in our voice and in the way that that I would want. 32:54.859 --> 33:03.246 [SPEAKER_02]: I use what is there, but I can't find the book I'm looking for and and he encouraged me to write the book I was looking for. 33:04.968 --> 33:13.575 [SPEAKER_02]: And and then also because I feel like even though I do that devotional time in the morning 33:14.955 --> 33:20.587 [SPEAKER_02]: It is really the way God shows up in my everyday life. 33:21.208 --> 33:23.573 [SPEAKER_02]: Like God may speak during that quiet time. 33:24.123 --> 33:25.925 [SPEAKER_02]: But God speaks throughout the day. 33:25.985 --> 33:34.533 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like while you stand in line at the grocery store, you know, while you are in your car, driving down the road, Matt, Santa, glad. 33:34.593 --> 33:47.765 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, God shows up and I wanted to share that the way God shows up in our everyday lives and to encourage people to be looking for that. 33:49.327 --> 34:00.913 [SPEAKER_02]: that God is making God self-known to us every day, in these very practical, unexpected sometimes ways. 34:01.342 --> 34:05.446 [SPEAKER_02]: And so these, that section of I met God as fire. 34:05.606 --> 34:07.547 [SPEAKER_02]: I met God as music. 34:07.708 --> 34:17.916 [SPEAKER_02]: I met God as the word or as sunshine and spirit is me recounting like this is the way that God showed up. 34:18.757 --> 34:23.301 [SPEAKER_02]: And the intention was instead of just here's the first, here's what I think about it. 34:23.962 --> 34:27.425 [SPEAKER_02]: It's the way God shows up is that as I'm going about my day,

34:28.443 --> 34:30.805 [SPEAKER_02]: The word of God comes up in that moment. 34:31.085 --> 34:34.687 [SPEAKER_02]: Like something that has been sewn in there comes up again. 34:34.707 --> 34:37.930 [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember a scripture in it. 34:39.067 --> 34:42.728 [SPEAKER_02]: is just flowing into whatever is going on in my life at the time. 34:43.188 --> 34:51.431 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I try to write more in the way that I experience got throughout the day as opposed to a formula. 34:52.652 --> 34:55.513 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, just got showed up today in this way. 34:56.053 --> 34:57.353 [SPEAKER_02]: God showed up in this way. 34:57.393 --> 35:04.216 [SPEAKER_02]: God said this while I was doing this, you know, one of my favorite ones is the talking about darkness and 35:05.990 --> 35:15.695 [SPEAKER_02]: God, as I'm standing out on that peer and it's pitch black in the fear that comes up in the and how the voice of God begins to speak. 35:16.155 --> 35:18.297 [SPEAKER_02]: Like that is, um, 35:19.425 --> 35:45.180 [SPEAKER_02]: How God shows up in some times though, we just missed that as well, right, we say that's us or that's, you know, our conscience or that's, you know, whatever else we want to call it and, um, and I think sometimes no, that's the spirit of the living God and stepping into time and choosing to speak to a community with us and don't miss it. 35:46.120 --> 35:47.161 [SPEAKER_02]: And let's speak to that. 35:47.668 --> 35:51.771 [SPEAKER_03]: That's good, Donna, you know, I'm actually really glad that you bought up the darkness chapter. 35:51.811 --> 35:53.152 [SPEAKER_03]: That was actually the one I was going to read. 35:54.833 --> 35:58.396 [SPEAKER_03]: It's under the fear section, if I didn't love her correctly, facing fear. 35:58.556 --> 35:59.657 [SPEAKER_03]: The facing for the situation. 36:00.978 --> 36:09.524 [SPEAKER_03]: Lord of the darkness, I was captivated by the title and I was, oh, okay, let's see what she's going to go with it. 36:09.644 --> 36:14.548 [SPEAKER_03]: So let me read this, let me see what I want to start off. 36:16.249 --> 36:17.130 [SPEAKER_03]: Let me start off here. 36:18.471 --> 36:21.513 [SPEAKER_03]: Of course, it is not the darkness itself we fear. 36:22.093 --> 36:25.035 [SPEAKER_03]: Darkness is merely the absence of light. 36:25.195 --> 36:31.619 [SPEAKER_03]: We know our closets and the clothes inside them remain the same when we close the doors and turn off the switch. 36:32.180 --> 36:37.963 [SPEAKER_03]: Shirts and shoes do not magically take breath and become living beings as we imagine when we were children. 36:38.644 --> 36:41.386 [SPEAKER_03]: No, it is unknown we are afraid of. 36:41.846 --> 36:47.209 [SPEAKER_03]: the unclear or indistinct causes us to pause or draw back in fear. 36:47.269 --> 36:56.794 [SPEAKER_03]: So the suburbanite or country kid fears the big bad city in the city kid dress the Russell and snapping sounds of the woods. 36:57.334 --> 37:04.397 [SPEAKER_03]: Darkness can also represent the absence of sufficient information, the feeling of being disoriented loss or otherwise out of control. 37:04.858 --> 37:10.800 [SPEAKER_03]: Darkness can be any space the way from our comfort zones that leaves me feeling unsafe, confused or unsure. 37:11.201 --> 37:15.963 [SPEAKER_03]: We generally don't like darkness, whether we can see with our natural eyes or not. 37:16.383 --> 37:23.386 [SPEAKER_03]: We often do everything in our power to avoid it because in this space, whether our fear is real or imagine we find ourselves 37:25.047 --> 37:28.431 [SPEAKER_03]: bodies and minds ready to comfort the coming threat. 37:28.451 --> 37:29.311 [SPEAKER_03]: I'll come front. 37:29.331 --> 37:29.692 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry. 37:29.992 --> 37:41.183 [SPEAKER_03]: The coming threat some years ago My family and I took a family vacation We rented an RV packed up the kids and bikes and headed away from Atlanta through the state of Florida And you were talking about your camping ship, you know 37:42.645 --> 37:55.668 [SPEAKER_03]: which I just, I really love this chapter because you illuminate at least for me, the ways in which the Lord is is, is sovereign, you know, and it's truly the Lord of the darkness. 37:55.768 --> 38:05.570 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm wondering, if you can speak, you know, to how it is that God is still with us, even in the darkness. 38:05.590 --> 38:10.292 [SPEAKER_03]: Because we tend to think in binaries and think, oh my God, the darkness belongs to the devil, 38:15.067 --> 38:15.767 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 38:16.527 --> 38:17.648 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 38:17.988 --> 38:23.028 [SPEAKER_02]: I say all the time that we have to remember that he is the Lord of heaven in earth. 38:23.068 --> 38:26.069 [SPEAKER_02]: He is not just the Lord in church. 38:26.529 --> 38:36.771 [SPEAKER_02]: He is not just the Lord in the library or the university classroom or he is Lord of everything of all. 38:37.311 --> 38:39.951 [SPEAKER_02]: And that includes he is Lord of the darkness and 38:43.731 --> 38:49.973 [SPEAKER_02]: So God is sees at midnight just like it is the middle of the day. 38:50.733 --> 38:54.015 [SPEAKER_02]: It is not dark to him. 38:54.095 --> 39:00.897 [SPEAKER_02]: Years ago, I used to sing with an ensemble who's led by wonderful songwriter Carol Antrom. 39:01.390 --> 39:07.133 [SPEAKER_02]: and she had a song that spoke to this that even the darkness is not dark to you. 39:07.613 --> 39:10.235 [SPEAKER_02]: The midnight must submit to you. 39:10.895 --> 39:18.279 [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember that line being so powerful to me to think about that midnight submits to my God. 39:18.879 --> 39:26.143 [SPEAKER_02]: So the things that I am afraid of must still submit to him, everything must submit to him. 39:26.643 --> 39:42.628 [SPEAKER_02]: And so if I can acknowledge and believe that God is Lord of the thing I am in for afraid of, that it doesn't just have free reign to do whatever it wants with me,

that is helpful. 39:43.208 --> 39:46.249 [SPEAKER_02]: And takes away some of the fear. 39:46.309 --> 39:50.190 [SPEAKER_02]: So on that night standing out there in the dark, 39:56.048 --> 39:59.371 [SPEAKER_02]: go back to the light, right, go back to where was bright and safe. 40:00.232 --> 40:11.021 [SPEAKER_02]: And where my family was, and yet feeling the spirit of God saying, no, I want you to stay here, stay until you are no longer afraid. 40:12.623 --> 40:16.286 [SPEAKER_02]: And to override the fear, right? 40:16.466 --> 40:22.792 [SPEAKER_02]: And to stand into weight, and when I stood there long enough, and listen to the Lord. 40:23.422 --> 40:26.224 [SPEAKER_02]: Then I realized, wait, God is in the darkness. 40:26.304 --> 40:28.666 [SPEAKER_02]: That he is right here with me. 40:28.706 --> 40:31.729 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not like, because of God, dark, he left, right? 40:31.929 --> 40:33.350 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he is right here. 40:33.370 --> 40:35.232 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm walking with you. 40:37.053 --> 40:42.137 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was such a relief in a comfort. 40:43.038 --> 40:49.884 [SPEAKER_02]: And empowering is like, oh, I can be here in this place, even if it's dark and I can't see. 40:50.504 --> 40:51.565 [SPEAKER_02]: But God, you can. 40:51.938 --> 40:56.740 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the one who holds you sees you can see that all through the darkness. 40:56.760 --> 40:58.161 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I reminded me of them. 40:58.661 --> 41:02.163 [SPEAKER_03]: I love that because it was, um, it was the Lord. 41:02.443 --> 41:05.705 [SPEAKER_03]: You said in that chapter, um, It's all right. 41:05.785 --> 41:06.485 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll pick up the book. 41:07.586 --> 41:10.027 [SPEAKER_03]: But it was a Lord that led you into that darkness. 41:10.047 --> 41:11.968 [SPEAKER_03]: It was a Lord that told you, uh, turn that way. 41:12.028 --> 41:12.769 [SPEAKER_03]: Turn it goes out. 41:12.789 --> 41:13.029 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. 41:13.089 --> 41:15.290 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it was like, well, I go now. 41:15.350 --> 41:16.592 [SPEAKER_03]: way, right? 41:16.652 --> 41:23.201 [SPEAKER_03]: It reminds me of, you know, when the spirit of God led Jesus into the wilderness. 41:23.521 --> 41:23.942 [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly. 41:24.222 --> 41:31.311 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, hey, this is a part of what it means to follow, to be a Christian, to follow, to be a child of God. 41:31.892 --> 41:53.620 [SPEAKER_03]: is to walk in that in the wilderness it is to walk you know in the darkness and learn that the Lord truly is the Lord of the darkness I just something it's a turn of phrase it's just a different you know you don't often see that just a big juxtaposition together you know so it's like oh so it jumps out at you and so when you raise it I was like that's what I was going to read 41:56.761 --> 42:01.084 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's just so unique, you know, we tend not to put that together. 42:01.224 --> 42:09.409 [SPEAKER_03]: Even though we know that, but we don't usually say, he's the god of, you know, the Lord of our darkness, because he dwells in unapproachable light and we're just true. 42:11.270 --> 42:15.173 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, sometimes we are frustration is because we have 42:18.263 --> 42:19.785 [SPEAKER_02]: taking God out of His place. 42:19.845 --> 42:22.968 [SPEAKER_02]: We have put people in the place of God. 42:23.228 --> 42:31.315 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we are frustrated and we're angry and we're dissatisfied with church or with the world, you know. 42:32.364 --> 42:36.489 [SPEAKER_02]: because we are expecting people to act like God. 42:36.569 --> 42:42.775 [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, the people of God have a responsibility to emulate Him, right? 42:42.856 --> 42:45.278 [SPEAKER_02]: And to reflect Him, yes. 42:45.759 --> 42:52.826 [SPEAKER_02]: But at the end of the day, very still this human flesh that gets in the way lots of times. 42:53.894 --> 43:15.049 [SPEAKER_02]: and the acknowledgment, though, that there is a Lord above those people, especially in the times we're living in right now, because the people who are flexing like they have all the power and they in charge and what they're going to do and not do, like we have to be reminded that they are not God. 43:15.869 --> 43:26.595 [SPEAKER_02]: Despite those thinking and saying and acting as though they are, they are not God and that darkness must admit to him. 43:26.755 --> 43:30.677 [SPEAKER_03]: That darkness above that distinction about that darkness, right? 43:30.697 --> 43:30.837 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 43:30.857 --> 43:33.998 [SPEAKER_03]: So because there is a darkness that is of the evil one. 43:34.158 --> 43:34.719 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yes. 43:35.159 --> 43:36.299 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's be clear about that. 43:36.740 --> 43:37.260 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yes. 43:37.720 --> 43:43.383 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's running rampant right about now and thinking that is in charge until it's not. 43:43.603 --> 43:53.311 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, in the way that, you know, we think about Pharaoh, Pharaoh thought he was God all the way until the end, until he was dead. 43:54.432 --> 43:54.852 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 43:55.213 --> 43:55.793 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 43:55.873 --> 43:56.454 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 43:56.514 --> 43:57.895 [SPEAKER_02]: He was the power. 43:58.496 --> 44:09.685 [SPEAKER_02]: And he kept on trying to exert that power and trying to hold back the people of God and trying to destroy, to actually kill the people of God. 44:09.725 --> 44:10.866 [SPEAKER_02]: And in our communities, 44:11.507 --> 44:20.294 [SPEAKER_02]: It has felt like this darkness is trying to hold us back, destroy us to actually kill us. 44:21.315 --> 44:26.239 [SPEAKER_02]: And yet there is a sovereign Lord that is above this darkness. 44:26.659 --> 44:34.025 [SPEAKER_02]: But in this time, if we turn to be God, then that is where we find our help. 44:35.513 --> 44:35.973 [SPEAKER_03]: Amen. 44:36.034 --> 44:36.874 [SPEAKER_03]: Amen. 44:36.914 --> 44:42.999

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's a beautiful place, you know, for us to pause and to end. 44:43.399 --> 44:57.911 [SPEAKER_03]: But before we go, Donna, I would love for you to talk to our audience and tell them where they can pick up your brand new devotional enough for today, for the reflections for surviving, the wilderness, by Dominette Harbor. 44:57.931 --> 44:58.712 [SPEAKER_03]: Where can they go get it? 44:58.972 --> 45:00.053 [SPEAKER_03]: And where can they follow you? 45:00.113 --> 45:00.933 [SPEAKER_03]: Tell them all the things, 45:03.112 --> 45:04.493 [SPEAKER_02]: you can follow me. 45:05.013 --> 45:25.903 [SPEAKER_02]: My website is Donna M. Barber.com and there's information about the book there, there's information about coming enough for today retreat that we are doing in September at contemplative retreat that it will be in Costa Rica and in September this year. 45:27.604 --> 45:31.766 [SPEAKER_02]: And that information is on my website, DonnaMbarber.com. 45:32.167 --> 45:41.212 [SPEAKER_02]: The book is also available at ivpress.com and of course at Amazon in good reads as well. 45:42.279 --> 45:42.659 [SPEAKER_03]: Awesome. 45:42.879 --> 45:43.179 [SPEAKER_03]: Awesome. 45:43.199 --> 45:53.782 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you so much, Donna, for writing this devotional for equipping us for ministering to us in this way, especially in these times. 45:55.102 --> 45:56.442 [SPEAKER_03]: We're grateful for your yes. 45:57.522 --> 46:03.084 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, to God's will and purpose for your life and your yes to coming on truth's table. 46:03.164 --> 46:04.304 [SPEAKER_03]: We're so grateful. 46:05.205 --> 46:11.611 [SPEAKER_03]: for you and of course we want to thank our listeners for taking and see that the table with us this week. 46:11.951 --> 46:13.693 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's keep the conversation going. 46:13.773 --> 46:16.536 [SPEAKER_03]: Share your thoughts about this episode behind the book. 46:17.016 --> 46:19.339 [SPEAKER_03]: Enough for today with Donna Barber. 46:19.859 --> 46:23.483 [SPEAKER_03]: You can share your thoughts on Instagram, Threads, or Facebook at Choose Table. 46:24.003 --> 46:27.367 [SPEAKER_03]: or email us your thoughts at AskTruthSable at gmail.com. 46:27.667 --> 46:31.451 [SPEAKER_03]: Black women, did you all know that true table has a Black women's Facebook Disappleship group? 46:31.971 --> 46:32.712 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, now you do. 46:32.972 --> 46:40.440 [SPEAKER_03]: Make sure you follow true table on Facebook, and join our Facebook group today, answer all of the entry questions, and you'll be admitted into the group. 46:40.820 --> 46:42.341 [SPEAKER_03]: Make sure you invite your home girls too. 46:42.741 --> 46:46.944 [SPEAKER_03]: Don't forget to rate and review the shown iTunes and subscribe on your favorite podcast player. 46:47.344 --> 46:57.890 [SPEAKER_03]: True Table has a Patreon account, so you all can send your love offerings to patreon.com slash True Table, or you can bless us at our PayPal, which is PayPal.me slash True Table. 46:58.411 --> 47:00.612 [SPEAKER_03]: True Table's audio producer is Joshua Heath. 47:01.012 --> 47:04.975 [SPEAKER_03]: Our video producer is Daniel Bradford, and True Table's executive producers and hosts our