บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ 25 - TruHistory: How Zoning Shapes Our Cities

--> 00:05:05.120 You don't have to be a lawyer uh to deserve to access your zoning code. 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:19.680 And that's why I'm doing things like writing the book that you mentioned, working on the zoning atlas project to try to make zoning more legible to people who uh may not immediately kind of be able to sift through all of those details. 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:30.480 And so the the drive or the need for the public to understand zoning better is because of how it impacts every aspect of our daily life. 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:34.800 Every place with zoning is controlled by zoning. 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:40.800 And if you know, once you put that together, you can say, well, then wait, wait, what's in our zoning code? 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:45.360 And there's so many different uh provisions, and I cover some of them in the book. 00:05:45.519 --> 00:06:04.399 Um, provisions that talk about opening hours for businesses, or how many people can live in a in a household, or uh what kinds of things can be sold at a retail store, and when, and what security they have to have, and whether a bar has to serve food. 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:10.079 I mean, you would not believe the kinds of details that go into zone zoning codes across the country. 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:27.120 Um, and you know, just trying to pull out some of those rules to show people how intense and how important this area of law is is really um is hard to do, but is something that we're trying to do in a couple of ways with my my team on the zoning atlas and and other ways. 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:28.079 Absolutely. 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:38.000 I uh I've spent 20 years litigating zoning related and code of for other code enforcement related issues and housing related issues for cities up and down the state of California. 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:43.920 And as I mentioned, I come from a family where my dad was uh in in zoning and a city manager and so on. 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:55.439 But yet, notwithstanding that, I was shocked in the first chapter essentially of your book, Heat of the City, you talked about issues that impact us daily that I never thought. 00:06:55.600 --> 00:07:24.160 For example, you essentially did a comparison of Hartford, Connecticut, 50, 60 years ago to where it is now and directly linked the results, which were almost universally negative, uh, to zoning impacts, such as things like uh basically zoning, driving, driving people, no pun intended, to use their cars more, resulting in pollution, obesity, a complete inversion of the obesity rates in Hartford, inversion of it used to being an affluent city to uh to struggling financially. 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:28.000 Uh and so zoning really pervades our lives. 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:33.920 Are there are there any other kind of hidden effects of zoning that people don't typically think about? 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:54.160 Yeah, I mean, I'm glad you pulled out this story of Hartford because it was really in that role, that public service role, leading the planning commission for seven years, that I really learned the most about how important zoning is and how it can, for bad or for good, really affect individual people's lives. 00:07:54.399 --> 00:08:05.519 And I start the book with a story of um me walking around a neighborhood in Hartford, which happens to be one of the uh poorest cities in the country, with one of the neighborhood leaders. 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:12.480 Um, and exactly as you uh as you recall, the the neighborhood had really suffered. 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:25.040 And it had suffered over time, really because of changes in the use of land on the central commercial corridor, the the main street, if you will, of that uh of that community called Albany Avenue. 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:43.679 And if you look at Albany Avenue within the city of Hartford, it's lined with car washes and gas stations and fast food restaurants and lots of asphalt, a strip mall type development, uh, even on small lots where the parking is in front and the whole lot is virtually paved. 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:45.759 And like, how did it get this way? 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:51.039 It used to be a very handsome avenue, as you mentioned, one of the wealthiest cities in the country at the turn of the century. 00:08:51.360 --> 00:09:10.240 And zoning had to have played a role because it was a dramatic change in the zoning code uh in the 1950s that resulted in the zoning being flipped on its head, essentially Hartford becoming uh zoned in ways that made it a place oriented around cars. 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:19.200 And even taking into account the rise of the automobile in the 1950s and the suburban towns that were springing up, it was a really extreme example. 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:23.519 And I think going back to your question, uh, what are the hidden effects of zoning? 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:31.759 I think public health is a very poorly studied uh impact of zoning on the effect on public health. 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:37.360 So you mentioned obesity, um, asthma rates, respiratory disease when you have all that driving. 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:37.919 Right. 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:40.799 Uh, sense of social connectedness. 00:09:40.960 --> 00:10:00.240 So the extent to which people are able to uh see their neighbors or age in place and have healthy interactions with people on a daily basis, it really shifts a lot when you move out into a one-acre minimum single family home with nothing else around you, nothing to walk to, you become isolated. 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:04.399 So, even from a mental health perspective, zoning can have a pretty big role. 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:07.200 And that's talking about communities other than Hartford. 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:10.639 So, you know, just branching out that that idea of public health more generally. 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:14.639 Um, and not only that, there's also environmental impacts. 00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:20.960 So a lot of

people say, well, we want that large lot, one-acre house, because that's better for the environment. 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:31.279 Actually, it's way worse for the environment because what it does is it pushes people outward into agricultural land, into forested land, into environmentally sensitive lands. 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:34.240 And it just requires people to drive. 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:47.360 So it zoning has had these curios across the country in urban cities like Hartford, in suburbs, uh, and uh even further out that I think people are just now coming to terms with. 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:50.159 And I'm I'm hoping our work can help shed more light on. 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:51.600 That's a great point. 00:10:51.679 --> 00:11:07.519 And my mind immediately goes as a Californian to the increased devastating effect of fires out here in California as people move further and further into what historically has been no man's land, the wildlife uh areas. 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.679 And so fires are impacting people even more. 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:14.799 Uh, as and I see a zoning connection there. 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:21.679 In your book, you describe uh the standard issue American single family neighborhood. 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:35.919 That's how you kind of defined it, seem to identify that as a historical zoning trend that maybe started around the time you're talking about, but has led to perhaps um outdated or outright negative effects. 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:41.519 What do you mean by the standard issue American single family neighborhood and how has that been problematic? 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:47.759 Well, another way to put it is that we have in this country one size fits all zoning. 00:11:48.000 --> 00:12:01.759 As we've documented zoning across the country, we've seen, for example, uh in the National Zoning Atlas that 81% of land that has residential use is zoned only for single family housing. 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:08.799 Now we haven't done the whole country, but we've done almost two-thirds of its land and two-thirds of its population. 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:16.879 Um, and and so we think we have a pretty good sense that the 81% number, single family only, is uh is gonna hold. 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:26.720 Um, we've also seen that there in tandem with that, as I mentioned in the book, um, that there are really large minimum lot sizes. 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:33.840 So most of that residentially owned land requires really big lots of one acre or more. 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:42.960 And again, we're understanding this by reading zoning code after zoning code for all these local jurisdictions across the country. 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:48.320 And 1.2 million pages of zoning codes, by the way. 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:49.519 I believe it. 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:51.440 It's been a lot. 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:58.240 Um, but again, cumulatively, we've now started to calculate these nationwide stats. 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:12.559 But that just tells you, you know, from an empirical standpoint, from a research standpoint, that this one size fits all zoning is really uh an embedded part of our national landscape. 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:29.759 So the question for us is whether that should stay the way it is, whether we should just keep sprawling and sprawling, or whether it's time for us to take stock of what we've learned through the zoning atlas and and through other means and say, uh, maybe we should do this a little bit differently. 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:38.000 It it would seem that the conclusion reads is that we do need to do it differently, at least uh in some parts. 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:38.960 Is that right? 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:40.799 That is my conclusion. 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:46.960 And I think that's the conclusion of every every expert who's studied zoning as it's currently practiced. 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:51.600 Um, so at a bare minimum, zoning needs to be a lot more simple. 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:58.960 Um, I'm not saying this because our team is lazy and I'm lazy and we don't want to read 1.2 million more pages of zoning code. 00:13:59.200 --> 00:13:59.519 I don't. 00:13:59.600 --> 00:13:59.840 Yeah. 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:05.360 But it would be a lot simpler for us to understand and translate uh the zoning. 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:19.039 But why don't we make it the goal that ordinary people can understand zoning codes and they don't need us or lawyers, uh, or no offense to lawyers, uh, but you know, they don't need this extra help to understand something that's so important for them. 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:24.159 So simplifying zoning codes uh should be a top priority for us. 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:31.600 And then modernizing them, modernizing to take into account the impact of everything we've learned about zoning and its negative consequences. 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:42.240 And my book tries to make the case that we here here are some of the negative consequences in this story, in this city, in this story, in this person, uh person's experience. 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.519 And but also says, you know, we can actually zone for good. 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.159 We can actually zone for for positive outcomes. 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:52.159 And so we we should do that instead of instead of what we're doing now. 00:14:52.480 --> 00:15:03.279 Yeah, I really appreciated that about your book is that we it wasn't just simply Monday morning quarterbacking what people did 60 years ago, perhaps under different different circumstances. 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:16.960 Certainly, you know, as the book points out, as we've seen in other historical places, there were there was some insidiousness or some maliciousness in some of like the racial covenants, for example, that were uh involved. 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:32.639 However, I appreciate that your point is look, we've done it this one way, and you know, we can understand maybe why it was even sought after, but now

we've had the benefit of years passing to see the effects, and we have data that can help guide us to a better future. 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:39.600 I thought that was a really that's a that's a place where I think people can all agree is that you know, we have to evolve, we have to change. 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:41.600 Things that work, don't don't change. 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:44.320 Things that don't work, we need to change. 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:46.559 Yeah, absolutely. 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:47.919 That's what we should do. 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:48.799 Yeah, absolutely. 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:55.840 And so I guess, you know, I'm thinking kind of convert, I asked that question as a typical lawyer because I'm gonna ask you the opposite scenario here in just a second. 00:15:55.919 --> 00:16:08.240 And coming from a state with 40 million people, and Harvard's a pretty good sized city, but uh I'm thinking a lot of folks in densely populated areas think, you know what, I'm already living too close to folks. 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:18.799 And California, of course, has recently allowed uh quadplexes and above by right, as in uh even low density residential districts. 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:25.200 So that strikes a little bit of fear in the hearts of people who may think, I want a little bit more room. 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:26.720 What do you have to say to that? 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:37.679 Uh, how cities can strike a balance between, you know, someone's desire to maybe have a little bit more room, but also the needs for housing and also the needs for a collective benefit. 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:53.600 So California is a great example of a state, uh, like you said, hugely populated, 40 million people, I guess, um, uh, with uh a lot of big metro areas, LA, San Francisco, Sacramento, San Diego. 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:56.639 I mean, you've got some really big uh metro areas. 00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:02.399 Um, the state as a whole, we we finished the zoning for the state one time and we finished it again. 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:08.000 Um just uh more recently, we swept through the whole state and updated the codes. 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:12.799 Um, the state has done some great work on statewide legislation. 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:20.160 And just for your listeners, um, zoning authority by local governments, all of that authority derives from state law. 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:25.759 So it is the state itself that can tell local governments, hey, you can do this with your zone, you can't do this. 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:30.720 And California has overridden um some of the local zoning provisions. 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.680 So Matt mentioned one of them, uh, multifamily housing. 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:43.119 There's they've also done some uh work in the California legislature on accessory dwellings over a period of subsequent years, as well as transit-oriented development. 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:54.640 Um, but if you dig down, you actually start to realize that the legislature might not have quite done enough yet, um, and that there's still more work left to do. 00:17:54.799 --> 00:18:13.039 And because even as jurisdictions are concerned, or or locals, um, so individual residents may be concerned about this type of density, um, the truth is that that there's not a lot of building that's going on in California to show for all of this, uh, these changes in state law. 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:21.119 And I'll just give you an example of the the amount of regulation in California, um, just in volume. 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:25.759 There are almost 200,000 pages of zoning codes just in California. 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:31.119 So I told you 60% of the country, so you know two-thirds of the country we've done. 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:43.200 California is 200,000 of the 1.2 million pages of zoning codes, on average, 364 pages for every zoning code in the state. 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:51.759 And all of the land uses are divided up and regulated by 540 different local jurisdictions. 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:53.759 So they're throwing a lot of numbers at you. 00:18:53.920 --> 00:19:16.720 But the point is that um despite these uh these state laws and and again, it's important progress, but um almost like never fear people who are worried about this because there is so much regulation and there's so much red tape in California that unfortunately a lot of the housing that desperately needs to be built in California isn't actually getting built. 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:18.319 And that's the fault of zoning. 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:19.839 And I've given you some stats on that. 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:24.880 It's also a problem with the state's environmental laws, environmental statutes. 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:26.640 And of course, I'm an environmentalist. 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:32.079 I'm I'm 100% all in on conserving uh and protecting the lands we need to protect. 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:43.519 But um, but the the ways that these laws are applied to new housing projects, in particular in California, I think is is is problematic and is actually contrary to environmental goals. 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:46.559 The legislature governor has been doing some work on this as well. 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.119 So let's see how that works out. 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:59.920 But um no single reform, no single state override, not even a single rezoning is going to be the only thing that's needed before the housing itself is actually built. 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:08.000 That said, zoning is a key thing because without zoning changing at all, it's not even possible for that type of housing to be built. 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:13.200 You raise a great uh a great tension that I hear a lot from cities that I work with. 00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:21.759 And I imagine it's similar around the country of the role of the state governing down to the cities, preempting local control. 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:22.640 You named a couple.

00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:30.000 ADUs are a particularly sore spot for cities uh that feel that they've lost a lot of control in that regard, but are left with some of the impacts. 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:35.279 And then also, um, I mean, there's an array of other ones in California too on the housing front. 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:39.440 But what, you know, like you said, we have about 483 cities here. 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:46.400 We have 58 counties, a lot of cities, a lot of jurisdictions, a lot of different citizen expectations for they live. 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:48.160 What is the role of the state? 00:20:48.240 --> 00:21:02.079 Or I guess put differently, why should the state be involved in uh trying to apply a one size fits all across any state, not just California, as opposed to leaving zoning decisions up to the individual jurisdictions? 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:06.079 Yeah, well, I'll just say uh you said 483 cities, right? 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:13.359 But there's um there was a new new jurisdiction just created, Mountain Mountain Springs, I think is the name. 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:14.000 Yeah, okay. 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:16.319 And where's the counties? 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:22.880 So there's a total of 540 jurisdictions with zoning um in the state of California and with zoning authority. 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:24.240 So what is the role of the state? 00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:34.880 Well, of course, the state is giving those different governments their authority, um, delegating the state's own authority to zone to the local governments. 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:43.519 And you're right that for a century, let's call it, zoning has been thought of as primarily the province of local officials. 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:48.160 But the issues with doing that have become too big to ignore. 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:50.640 And that is why the state has to come in. 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:59.759 And in fact, what the state is trying to do in California, Utah, Arizona, Texas, um, and a bunch of the Northeast as well, state. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.640 Have been trying to say, hey, listen, we gave you guys all this power and you kind of misused it. 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.119 You are the ones, the local governments have created the one size fits all zoning. 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:15.599 The state is trying to loosen that up so that a diversity of housing can be created. 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:19.279 That's been the predominant focus of the state. 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:26.000 We might call them preemption laws, but also so that other goals might be met. 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:30.559 So Vermont is a good example of a state that's super into the environment. 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:36.720 So a lot of their land use policies and their planning policies, Oregon too, have to do with the environment. 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:41.119 In a lot of other states, though, again, the focus is on housing production. 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:47.920 And so I think the role

of the state is the state's authority to zone that has been delegated to the local government. 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:55.440 So in my view, it's the states themselves that have the authority to really guide land use across the states. 00:22:55.519 --> 00:23:19.359 And I am uh, for the most part, I've been heartened by actions that have been taken in red states, blue states, purple states alike to try to really rein in some of the excesses of local zoning, the over-regulation of housing, the underregulation or under-treatment of environmental concerns, and to try to merge those together. 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:26.640 So I actually think we're going in the right direction when it comes to state input, uh, because it's the state's authority to begin with. 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.279 That is a profound point right there. 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:38.960 I always see California, the right to make and enforce local laws for health, safety, welfare benefits is enshrined in our California constitution, as we like to do here. 00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:40.720 We put everything in our constitution. 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:44.480 And uh, but as it relates to state laws, you're right. 00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:47.359 They it be it originates with the state's power. 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:50.160 And so it's theirs to give or theirs to tailor. 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:57.359 I think some of the challenges are that city councils and planning commissions then hear very angrily from their residents. 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:00.640 And of course, the hands are tied to some level at a local level. 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:06.960 So they're being they're dealing with the consequences, but perhaps not having um any control over the reins. 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:16.960 When you were, when you were in Hartford and you guys were rewriting these zoning laws, I guess was there a lot of public input at these, oh, at these public hearings on those issues? 00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:24.319 And secondly, were people what kind of attitudes were expressed to you or your colleagues about changing these laws? 00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:34.000 Actually, um, we did uh I personally did 75 or 100 meetings with local folks and outside of our public meetings. 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.200 Um, so of course, every Plating Zoning Commission has a monthly meeting. 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:42.160 Ours were bi-weekly, um, you know, or so, let's say month, you know, regular meetings. 00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:53.519 Um, in addition to those where we would discuss amongst ourselves different changes we were making or proposing, um, I went out to the community and I went to people's meetings and talked about the zoning code. 00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:54.559 This is happening. 00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:57.920 Here's how what might affect your neighborhood, what are your concerns? 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:06.799 Just like I tried to do that um, that walk and talk with Denise Best, the neighbor or leader that I mentioned in the very

first chapter of my book. 00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:10.720 Um, so that happened for me again and again and again every meeting. 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:11.759 I learned something. 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:22.160 My eyes were open to the connections between the very bad zoning code that we had inherited and the possibilities uh for the future if we changed it. 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:31.680 And and I would often go back to those same groups and say, I heard you at this meeting, here's what we're gonna do, and really built consensus around reform. 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:42.160 When we finally got around to the meeting itself to vote on the um the zoning code, it was almost entirely positive testimony. 00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:49.279 There wasn't out-of-town architect that said, this is gonna constrain my creativity because we had what we called a form-based code component. 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:53.359 Um, but in general, uh the comments were positive. 00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:56.319 We passed the code unanimously in one night. 00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:58.000 There were not multiple hearings. 00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:06.319 We took the vote, we said it's done, it's done, you know, everybody was excited, uh, and we implemented the code. 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:08.799 The code itself was is pretty cool. 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:12.079 It's a model, I think, for lots of um other cities. 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:21.119 It indicates everywhere in the city where housing is allowed, and it makes the housing that is allowed by right. 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:33.680 Um, it has stormwater management provisions and tree provisions, which are very important for an overpaved, under-treed city like Hartford. 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:49.599 It has a lot of other sort of energy elements, so permitting solar and even building mounted wind and things like that by right, um, as well as requiring electric vehicle charging stations, eliminating minimum parking mandates. 00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:51.599 This was back in 2016. 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:52.880 No, 2016. 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.160 Yeah, 2016. 00:26:54.319 --> 00:27:00.880 And we were the first city to do it citywide, and Buffalo uh was right there alongside us. 00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:21.359 Um, and you know, just doing a whole host of other things that uh loosening home-based businesses, for example, as well, that met the needs of our community, but also put into place best practices that I think we recognize still today, a decade later, are things that that local government should do to have an equitable, sustainable community. 00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:37.839 So I'm really proud of what we did in Hartford and it had a lot of community input, but the success of the project really depended on our being reliable, uh, transparent, upfront, honest, and knowledgeable, actually, about what we were doing. 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:41.759 Um, when I came on the commission too, it was a it was underpopulated. 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:59.599 There were many empty seats, and I also recruited an entirely new board of members that were much more diverse, reflected the diversity of the city, included uh people with children, um young people, people who were renters. 00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:09.359 Um, again, uh a range of people not normally represented on the zoning commission on a zoning commission, which made uh the whole, I think, out outcome a lot better. 00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:16.000 And it sounds like you did a lot of homework in advance out in the community to help pave the way for a smooth process. 00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:33.599 You know, cities sometimes can get in, have volcanic hearings uh when uh the community feels like maybe an agency is just trying to pull the wool over their eyes or get a code through that maybe they don't feel like they've had input in, even if it's been, you know, noticed in the typical legal requirements. 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:43.440 Um, I think to myself about an episode actually we did recently that our listeners, uh, by the time this comes out will have heard about community policing and the importance of community policing. 00:28:43.519 --> 00:29:00.000 And we had a police chief, former police chief on from a place in Oklahoma, and he was talking about the importance of embedding in the community because that work up front saves work on the back end and does the thing government really needs more of these days, which is increasing public trust and participation. 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:01.440 So I really appreciate that. 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:07.200 Turn, you mentioned something in terms of some of the things that the Hartford zoning overhaul did that kind of struck a core with me. 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:08.640 You talk about in your book as well. 00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:18.319 You said um some of the things we did included eliminating minimum parking requirements and freeing all the housing from burdensome public hearings. 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:21.680 And I guess I'd like to hear more about that. 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:28.960 Why is removing parking mandates or minimum parking ratios requirements, why is that a good thing? 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:37.519 And secondly, why is reducing public hearings, which many people see as a form of transparency, why is that a good thing? 00:29:38.000 --> 00:30:04.960 Public hearings tend to be uh a place where the people who oppose new housing or oppose change, uh, feel free to stand up and really, in my experience, not in Hartford, but in other places, um, say some pretty problematic things, um, not substantiated things, about uh especially the new residents that they fear will enter into their community. 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:07.839 Aka a race or immigrant-based thing. 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:10.799 Is that kind of what these yeah? 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:12.720 Abs yes, absolutely. 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:23.119 And and because of my, I guess my role as a bit of a public figure talking about zoning, I have heard some

rather crazy stories about public hearings. 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:33.519 At in Hartford, I realized that public hearings were actually pretty unfair to residents because our meetings were held in the evening hours. 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:43.039 Um, maybe people had families and wanted to have dinner and not come and wait around for their chance to testify pro or con to a meeting. 00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:59.519 Um, it also disadvantaged people who were in favor of new housing because it's those very people who don't have money for a babysitter transportation to a downtown location and uh maybe free time to get off of work if they work the night shift and so on. 00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:13.039 So public hearings are a barrier, I think, to um or or making a decision at a public hearing almost by definition means that you will not be hearing from the full cross-section of the community. 00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:23.039 It also means anecdotally, um, that as I've heard and as we have seen in newspaper reports and local governments from uh in local cities all over the country. 00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:36.079 The solution, though, to make sure that immediate neighbors, residents, know what to expect is to write strong rules into a zoning code that outline exactly what will get built. 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:38.160 That's the approach we took in Hartford. 00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:48.319 So by having a form-based code in our case, by having by right provisions, you could say there's this is the kind of building that's going to be built in your community. 00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:51.680 Um, it's going to be four stories tall, maximum. 00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:56.720 It's going to take up this much of the street, it's going to be pulled up, it's going to have a porch, it's going to have a pitch roof. 00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:58.400 Here's what it's going to look like. 00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:02.720 And what's in it is also, you know, laid out in the use table. 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:04.079 And is this good for you? 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:05.119 Does this work for you? 00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:10.079 If we wrote all those rules in advance, which we did in Hartford, as I mentioned, all housing is by right. 00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:12.640 It meant that we did not need to have a public hearing. 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:22.799 So again, going back to the this is all part of the Sarah Bronan, once fewer meetings and less work to do, we had shorter meetings, they were more pleasant, uh, they were clearer. 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:29.200 Everybody knew what was going to uh be expected from new construction in their community, infill development. 00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:32.880 We have a lot of vacant parking lots uh in the city of Hartford. 00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:40.480 Um, but we had a better sense for everybody, the developer, the neighbor, the city, as to what would be built in a particular community. 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:56.000 That's way better than uh the unequal status quo for many

jurisdictions, which is public hearings, not for single family housing, by the way, only multifamily housing, but that's the that's the status quo almost universally nationwide. 00:32:56.079 --> 00:32:57.440 And that too should change. 00:32:57.599 --> 00:32:58.799 Public hearings are a problem. 00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:00.000 Yeah, I agree. 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:01.839 I agree to a large extent. 00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:18.880 And of course, after COVID, allowing people to pipe in remotely who may not even have anything to do with the jurisdiction, but just want to make a point or grandstand or spread hate uh by appearing at public hearings via Zoom is also problematic to the points that you you you talked about there. 00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.799 I love that concept though, that you're not saying we should eliminate public hearings. 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:24.319 You've just done them up front. 00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:28.960 You've done them as part of developing the zoning rules and expectations. 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:42.880 So there isn't really need for on the back end because it occurred already on the front end, and then you do it in one big swath instead of piecemeal for every hearing, and homeowners just really have to run the gauntlet or property owners to try to get anything done. 00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:43.759 Absolutely. 00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:45.039 Yep, I totally agree. 00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:46.000 Yeah, that's wonderful. 00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:47.839 So let's shift a little bit to code enforcement. 00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:50.559 So obviously we're code enforcement and local government podcasts. 00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:57.359 And so in your time in Hartford, did you deal or interact with code enforcement any way, shape, or form? 00:33:58.000 --> 00:33:58.400 Yes. 00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:09.119 So in addition to working on the zoning code, um, the zoning commission rewrote uh what we couldn't find, apparently, the subdivision regulations. 00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:13.920 So when I got on board as a law professor, I said, okay, where's all of our roles? 00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:22.000 And we might have had subdivision regulations and inland wetland regulations, things we were required to have virtually by state law, but nobody could find them. 00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:32.559 We liaised with the flood commission and the flood uh civil engineers that were employed by the city, traffic engineer on both of those all of those documents historic um in historic ways. 00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:37.360 But I also helped to work on a rewrite of our housing code. 00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:48.400 And in that role, worked with some housing code officials, trying to understand what the dynamics were in our community, on especially for things like inspections. 00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:59.599 Um that housing code, uh, not it was not a zoning commission or in our purview as a zoning commit planning zoning commission, but it was just something that I felt was important to

help with. 00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:01.119 And so I was glad to do that too. 00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:10.400 In your view, what is what role can code of horse and play in helping to improve communities as zoning changes, zoning rules change? 00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:29.119 Well, there are a lot of places where the zoning rules might say one thing, but because over time maybe uh nobody reported a code violation or there was not a uniform system of inspection by the local government, uh, the land use change unbeknownst to anybody. 00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:31.280 Maybe a new addition was added. 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:44.639 Um, so code enforcement is really important to ensure that the words on the page for any local law that requires code enforcement, whether it's zoning or housing or of course the building code, it actually works as intended. 00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:50.800 So I'm a I'm a big believer that that is the second part of not just the rules, it's also the enforcement. 00:35:51.039 --> 00:36:02.800 I'll just say that in Hartford over the years, it was not always the level of code enforcement uh across the board that was probably needed in an in a dynamic and changing urban city. 00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:05.599 And so every city has that issue. 00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:13.920 And, you know, many times you have to grapple with it after the fact, after land use was changed, after something happens to raise the issue. 00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:32.159 In the zoning code, we actually tried to do something and it didn't quite work, but we tried to deputize non-city, non-zoning inspector, non-city officials essentially, with the ability to handle certain types of citations. 00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:36.639 It was an idea, and I know that some places have experimented with that. 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:42.320 So going outside of the public sector to try to try to improve rates of code enforcement. 00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:52.719 I don't know if you have some thoughts about that, but uh it was a it was something that we started tinkering with and then ended up uh ended up not really pursuing in a meaningful way. 00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:55.280 That's actually uh kind of a new concept to me. 00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:56.559 I had not heard that before. 00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:57.679 How how intriguing. 00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:06.159 What was the driver for the I guess the looking at deputizing non-government officials to enforce uh codes? 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:16.559 Cities with limited budgets and lack of personnel uh might and I can't remember, I just saw another one, um another zoning code where that was the case. 00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:19.920 If I remember before the end of this podcast, I will let you know. 00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:35.440 Um, but the idea is that in a world of limited budgets and limited eyes, especially in a in a bigger city, Hartford is pretty small, it's 16, 17 square miles, but in a bigger city, more eyes on the street, more ability to to kind of understand immediate land uses. 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:47.360 And um, maybe that uh enforcement prong could be aided by uh by others who have been trained uh to do that kind of work. 00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:51.199 So yeah, I mean, if I get that name of the other place, I will let you know. 00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:56.400 But I would have thought maybe it's just not something that California would allow. 00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:58.960 I don't think Connecticut expressly prohibits that. 00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:00.960 I think legally it could be done. 00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:11.280 Uh and you know, California has a couple thousand code enforcement officers by various names, you know, a zoning or uh community preservation officer or code compliance. 00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:14.239 They're all kind of, you know, brothers and sisters from different mothers. 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:16.800 They go by different names, but they do the same functions. 00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:24.880 Um, the idea of volunteers from the community being deputized uh is frankly, I think that's a great idea. 00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:46.639 Uh, one, it invests the community in their own community and enforcement of their laws, giving meaning to words on paper, and then it increases, I think, probably enforcement, because instead of people looking at the code enforcement officer like the other, the government is coming down on them, even if they live in their community, you've actually got one of your neighbors who's like, we need to do this. 00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:53.199 So actually, that as you mention it, I think that that's a great idea and something that um I'm gonna look into a little bit more. 00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:55.440 Uh, but budgets are certainly an issue. 00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:59.440 That is, I think, a really interesting point uh that you raise about that. 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:05.119 Code enforcement is some of our listeners are thinking, Matt, I don't do zoning enforcement. 00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:10.800 You what I would say to those folks is you do, you just don't know that you do it, perhaps. 00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:12.079 And then many others do. 00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:18.400 You know, we've got I've got a couple of cases going right now to try to protect, and maybe, maybe Sarah, you've heard of this before. 00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.000 I'd be interested in your thoughts. 00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:27.840 Um, California, our last bastion of affordable housing, particularly for seniors, is mobile home parks. 00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:37.920 And many uh jurisdictions have designated certain mobile home parks to be senior only, or maybe 80% senior available or 100% senior available. 00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:47.039 Nonetheless, there are some owners that are coming in, park owners, very well funded, that are coming in and converting them to all ages or threatening to shut them down if a city acts. 00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:50.000 Have you seen these kind of they're called overlays?

00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:52.800 Have you seen these kind of senior overlays before in your experience? 00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:55.360 Do they are they effective at helping protect? 00:39:55.679 --> 00:40:09.679 So we log for every district in the National Zoning Atlas information about whether there is an elderly only requirement, uh, both district-wide and for specific types of housing. 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:16.960 We also log whether uh there are planned residential developments or mobile home parks that are allowed. 00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:21.440 Um, so that is a data point that we have um at scale across the country. 00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:26.639 That said, uh, you caught me off guard because I don't have our latest stats on that. 00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:33.920 I do believe the last time we looked, less than 1% of residential land was designated elderly only. 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:35.119 Don't quote me on that. 00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:40.400 It's certainly not our most updated stat, but I would guess that probably still holds true. 00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:45.920 I would say that there's a double-edged sword for uh for the elderly only designation. 00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:54.000 On the one hand, if you do have that designation, it does dedicate that land for uh elderly residents. 00:40:54.159 --> 00:41:01.760 On the other hand, studies have shown that elderly people have more fulfilling lives if they are in mixed income places. 00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:19.760 We also know that the covenants that go on 55 and older active adult type communities, not through zoning, but through covenants, produce somewhat exclusionary situations whereas somebody might not even be able to have their grandchild stay overnight, certain types of communities. 00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:37.199 Um, and then finally, there are places that will create an affordable housing district in their zoning code, and they will say, well, this is only for elderly housing, knowing that that restriction will mean that the affordable housing will never pencil for a developer. 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:46.400 We saw a lot of unmapped affordable districts in Connecticut, which is where the zoning outlet first started, they had that elderly provision. 00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:53.039 No developer ever sought it because that's not something that there's not a lot of elderly people that are going to retire in Connecticut, okay? 00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:59.840 They're going to Florida, but the the jurisdiction can say, well, we created this affordable housing district. 00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:02.960 Gee, I guess nobody really wants to use it here. 00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:09.679 And and that so I do think, again, that particular type of provision can be seen in a lot of different ways. 00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:12.000 And it really depends on the on the context. 00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:15.360 But we do log it, and at some point we'll do some research on it. 00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:19.199 What an interesting concept of

the empty zoning provision. 00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:32.079 The zoning provision with no actual applicability reminds me of uh a situation involving adult-oriented businesses and zoning for basically these are like back in the day, porno bookshops, stuff like that. 00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:34.800 Not a lot of jurisdictions really want them in their jurisdictions. 00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:37.440 They have a First Amendment right uh protection to do that. 00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:51.360 And I remember one jurisdiction in Southern California through distancing requirements and concentration limitations and all sorts of things, essentially when someone mapped it out and went, where can we actually place an adult-oriented business? 00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:54.159 It was in the middle of a quarry that they had. 00:42:54.480 --> 00:43:01.840 I mean, in a way, really in zoning, uh, if you're really intending that result, um, but not legally viable. 00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:07.840 So just a kind of a, I guess, kind of a funny aside, I guess, about zoning and some other aspects of the world. 00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:14.079 I just want to say, you know, so I do cover adult uses in my book, as you know, it's I do Austin, Baltimore. 00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:19.199 Um, but the, but so that's a fun conversation and maybe a whole other topic. 00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:24.159 But the unmapped zoning district is so prevalent across the country. 00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:31.360 When we last in December, we did a run of our database and we pulled all the districts and we asked, is this map or unmap? 00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:37.360 15% of the districts in our database, about again, 100,000 districts, were not mapped. 00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:42.239 This goes exactly to your point of, oh yeah, well, we sure we have that district, no problem. 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:43.840 Pat yourself on the back. 00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:44.800 But not really. 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:46.320 It's not mapped. 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:49.199 It's an inter it is interesting. 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:59.519 I mean, when the when the words on paper are put on an actual map, they can reveal very different outcomes than maybe even was intended at times. 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:01.760 sometimes was intended. 00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:07.199 So let's talk about your the other atlas, the National Preservation Atlas. 00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:10.800 What was what is that and what is the goal behind it? 00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:25.039 So the National Preservation Atlas aims to document properties that have been designated historic on local, state, and national registers of historic places and also document the laws that apply to them. 00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:39.679 So what that means is that we are looking at not only all these registers and digitizing paper copies, hand-drawn maps, meets and bounds descriptions for the readers that are super into the property context. 00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:45.440 We we're just digitizing just very, very

zoning maps were bad. 00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:53.280 These indications of where historic properties are are all over the I guess proverbial map and they're really hard to pull together. 00:44:53.360 --> 00:45:00.800 But our team is really great sifting through all of these um old dusty registers and putting them all in one place. 00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:03.039 It's at preservationatlas.org. 00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:07.280 Zoning Atlas is zoningatlas.org, by the way, for anybody who wants to check out the stats. 00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:10.480 I'm amazed that they were still available by the way, those domains. 00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:11.840 Me too. 00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:21.599 We uh but we've done the full states of Connecticut, Nevada and uh DC, which is actually considered a state in our federal preservation regime. 00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:26.800 We're working our way through Virginia and Texas, part of Texas as well. 00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:35.199 And so we're looking not just again at where these properties are located, but we're also reading state laws, what protects historic properties? 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:36.639 Are there tax credits? 00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:41.760 Are there local commissions that regulate uh what somebody can do with their property? 00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:44.719 Do they do alterations, new construction, demolition? 00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:48.639 What do they exactly uh regulate at the local level? 00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:55.760 So again, thought zoning was hard to find historic preservation ordinances at the local level are equally hard to find. 00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:59.920 And also confirming that they don't exist is a difficult task. 00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:06.960 So we'll know, you know, in some places they exist, some places they don't, but um we have had a very tough time doing that. 00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:10.480 And that's the work of the preservation atlas, but it's challenging. 00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:11.840 We really enjoy it. 00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:14.159 It is a sister project to the zoning atlas. 00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:18.320 I would say half of my research is on zoning and half is on historic preservation. 00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:23.440 You know, I had the chance to chair the Federal Preservation Agency for a couple of years and that was super interesting. 00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:27.840 And I realized that the data in preservation is basically non-existent. 00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:32.800 Where it does exist, it's not shared with the public and the public once again can't understand it. 00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:42.079 So this is a labor of love project once again to try to help people understand the things that I am super interested in and then hopefully maybe they get interested in it too. 00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:56.559 And I I love that you're basically taking uh the the hit for all of us by pouring through these really specific and arcane kind of um hard to find rules and putting them in an understandable location in in one place. 00:46:56.719 --> 00:46:58.480 So thank you Well it's our whole team. 00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:18.400 It's our whole team I mean we're all into it we all kind of have the same mission and and I'm really lucky that the people who've gravitated towards the project have have the same thought as I do which is like let's roll up our sleeves and get this done so people can can actually in both cases by the way start to change the rules that are in effect. 00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:20.719 Sure you can't change what you don't know. 00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:29.119 Maybe you guys can take on uh the tax atlas most I'll do next is solar energy law but that's and then I'm done. 00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:31.760 You can only take so much with that I get it. 00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:58.480 Wonderful uh well you know I do feel like um we might need to have a separate episode just entirely on adult oriented business because that is a really interesting topic from a zoning perspective and of course a lot of different perspectives but as as we kind of think about the future of zoning if you could s just snap your fingers and change one thing nationally what would it be? 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:01.840 Gosh you know I this answer has changed over the years. 00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:04.639 I think the easiest thing to change is parking mandates. 00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:06.880 We don't need them get rid of them it's not necessary. 00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:14.960 It's destroyed a lot of historic buildings in our central cities because people have torn those places down for parking and it's just bad policy. 00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:52.480 But I think my answer now would be minimum lot sizes because I think that has uh not only again has these negative environmental effects but negative social effects let people build close together let people build cottage communities let people build um you know co-u housing type uses and I think getting rid of minimum lot sizes even if we don't also allow multifamily housing even if it's just single family small tiny homes and small lots that is actually could help us a lot with uh creating more affordable housing. 00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:58.800 So I would say maybe I started off the e-parking mandates, low-hanging fruit, buy right multifamily housing that's obvious one. 00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:03.440 But I think right now I'm into the minimum lot size and eliminating the minimum lot size. 00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:17.280 How interesting and what I'm hearing here is maybe also a bit of an an antidote to our increased disconnectedness among each other as we all are looking at our phones, not each other, not going out to communities. 00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:23.280 So uh that's actually that topic has actually come up in the last three podcasts we've reported this week. 00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:30.400 And so it's interesting to see uh perhaps a drive towards greater interconnectedness in communities than we've had the last couple of years. 00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:31.840 What a wonderful conversation. 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:34.719 I promised myself I wouldn't go too far down the rabbit hole. 00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:38.159 I feel like I jumped in a couple of times you kind of pulled me out I appreciate it. 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:41.760 Where can people go to get your book? 00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:46.079 It really and again folks I'm telling you it's a great book it's a great read. 00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:51.440 I completely understand that you might be thinking zoning Matt we do it all day read the book. 00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:55.840 It's a great book where where Sarah can people go to get your book and learn more about what you do. 00:49:56.159 --> 00:50:09.119 Hopefully you're able to go to your local bookstore that's always a plus I was just in Charlottesville this weekend and uh was really excited to see uh the local bookshop on the down mall carry the book. 00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:30.559 You can also visit my website so Sarah S A R A Bronan B-R-O-N-I-N dot com and then the zoning atlas and preservation atlas are your free resources uh to go and explore zoning and historic preservation hopefully on the historic preservation side we'll get a lot more coverage in the next two three years and we're super excited about that. 00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:39.280 Wonderful well I I can't uh thank you enough for having this conversation with me and our listeners and I can't thank you enough for everything you've been doing. 00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:41.599 It's been a wonderful conversation. 00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:42.960 Thank you Sarah for joining us. 00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:49.199 Thanks again Matt Thank you for joining us on this journey. 00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:55.199 If you enjoyed what you heard don't forget to subscribe follow rate and review us wherever you're listening right now. 00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:56.719 Until next time