บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Protecting Neurodivergent Young People from Child Sexual Exploitation (CSE) with Laura Horne and Anne-Marie McAteer

yeah, I'm forever in my chain and saying a bit, we we talk about eye contact, don't we? 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:31.519 You know, we put so much emphasis on eye contact, but we know neurodiverted, some neurodiverted children might not make eye contact. 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:38.879 Um, so yeah, I think it just adds a whole level of complexity to it and their vulnerability, you know, because as we know they're going to be more vulnerable. 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:46.879 Um, I don't know if Flora's got anything else that she wanted to add about that side, but yeah, I definitely think that it adds that complexity to it. 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:48.319 Yeah, definitely. 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:49.920 Yeah, absolutely. 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:52.399 And then we've got like the difficulties, don't we? 00:05:52.480 --> 00:06:08.639 We've like reading neurodivergence, reading someone's intent um due to the difficulties, um, like sarcasm, hidden motives, the social cues, um, which makes them more easily easy to be manipulated manipulated. 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:09.199 Sorry. 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:16.800 And I guess on the back of that, Laura, is you're you're right, the manipulations there, isn't it? 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:29.839 Because if they don't have the same sort of friendship groups, they don't have those strong connections, and then they've got someone who's coming in, you know, and offering them that they might not be able to pick up the signs that actually it's not a healthy relationship in the way that you would hope. 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:30.639 Definitely. 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:47.519 Yeah, and I guess that always opens up that additional vulnerability because again, you know, if we don't kind of feel that sense of belonging, etc., you know, and maybe we quite literally don't have that support network, it kind of makes us quite an easy target in some ways, doesn't it? 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:59.360 Um, I wonder whether, I mean, Lauren, unless there was anything else that you were going to ask, I was just kind of curious about you know, any further changes in behaviour that might be helpful for our listeners to kind of think about. 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:04.000 I think I've covered it really. 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:05.759 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:06.240 Yeah. 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:10.480 I know it's quite a complex question, so I don't want to move on too quickly. 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:25.600 So maybe if we think about that, about you know, potentially what parents and carers might be able to sort of do that could maybe create a little bit of that sort of consistency, or to maybe help their child or young person feel a bit safer. 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:30.160 And again, these are massive questions, so please take your time. 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:33.680 Okay, do you want do you want me to leave? 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:57.519 I'll I'll just then yeah, um, so um I think a really important one is educating them, educating young

people online, stranger danger, um, and about online safety, you know, um the amount of parents I've worked with, uh family, shall I say, that they don't have any security measures on their children's apps. 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:02.560 Oh, wow, on the phones, sorry, the phones and their technical devices. 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:04.560 Um, do you know? 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:13.759 I I I remember when I worked in sexual exploitation services, one of the young people that we worked with managed to contact somebody through the television. 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:14.959 Really? 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:16.000 Yeah. 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:21.839 No, I'm not what I don't want you to actually answer that, but I'm not, I would not have a clue. 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:23.120 No, not at all. 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:25.279 Okay. 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:30.240 Well, that makes me curious then about what other devices we might be missing. 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:35.039 And and I think you know, we're getting better somewhat with mobile phones, aren't we? 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:38.480 But it's not just you know, young people's mobile phones, then, is it? 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:45.039 I mean, I don't know whether either of you have got any other examples of things that you've seen happen or yeah. 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:50.080 I mean, I I think what goes on that is is the whole gaming side of things, isn't it? 00:08:50.159 --> 00:09:03.039 You know, yeah, you know, that could be through a TV, I suppose, through their Wi-Fi's, things like that, that whole gaming, you know, because there's that I quite often um try to teach about you know, risks, you know, people have to take risks, don't they? 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:10.240 You know, we all have to make unwise decisions to kind of get those experiences in life, but what we don't want is them taking a risk that puts them at harm. 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:16.639 And I think, you know, as Laura was saying, I think sometimes the the parents need to be educated just as much, you know. 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:26.559 And and and I get that, I don't know about yourselves, but you know, I've got parents who um can quite easily send an email but will tell me quite often that they can't send an email because technology frightens them, you know. 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:36.799 Um and if you've got an older parent or or someone that really just doesn't have that that you know that thought about technology and putting those parental cons parental restrictions in. 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:43.600 Um and I think sometimes the relationship between the child and the adult, you know, if it's already fraught, it's going to cause a problem. 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:51.679 But I think some parents don't want to broach things because they don't want to push children out, you know, so they almost don't want to say to them, Well, who are you hanging about with? 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:58.000 Because sometimes they don't want the answers, or they they're frightened that if they tell them something, they've got no control over it. 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:05.360 Sometimes parents like to feel in control of what they can control, uh, and it, you know, let's be honest, being a parent in this day and age is not easy, is it? 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.159 You know, it's tough, gig, it really is. 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:10.320 And you know, I I don't have children of my own. 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:13.600 But for example, I didn't know about the TV thing. 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:21.840 So I would absolutely need upskilling massively, you know, if I had a child, but I was trying to kind of protect from this. 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:37.360 So, yeah, well, so I think we can have a massive amount of of kind of empathy, you know, for potentially parents and carers who do find themselves um, you know, sadly parenting um, you know, potentially a child that has, you know, sort of ended up going through this. 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:49.440 Laura, I don't know whether there are any other bits from yourself or yeah, Anne Marie, you know, in terms of parents and carers and anything that we can sort of do that might have I was just going to come in on something you said there, Jessica, about parents and carers. 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:51.679 And I think you're right, you know, we we say parents, don't we? 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:55.279 But we forget we've got a lot of carers out there that are older, you know. 00:10:55.360 --> 00:11:05.600 So a child might be with their grandparents or their aunt and uncle, or family members that aren't family, aren't direct family members, so you know, putting those settings on phones becomes difficult. 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:12.639 Um, I know I've dealt with lots of foster carers over the year that they get lots of training, but they don't really know what they can and what they can't do. 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:14.720 You know, it's it's difficult, isn't it? 00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:17.120 You know, they can't stop a child from running out the front door. 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:20.720 So, how do they then start putting parental controls on their mobile phones? 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:30.639 Um, you know, so I I think just what you're saying about the carers bit, I think sometimes we miss that that it's the same as being a parent, but it's slightly different because it's more complex. 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:49.519 It is, yeah, it is, you know, particularly given that we know that due to a myriad of different issues, you know, kinship care is growing now in terms of you know the kind of population, um, you know, again, due to the shortages of foster parents and those sorts of things. 00:11:49.679 --> 00:12:04.159 And you're very right, you know, it's very typical that maybe grandma might be caring for you know for a grandchild, but as you know, their primary carer, and you know, yeah, absolutely generational differences and those sorts of things. 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:14.159 I think you know,

our children and young people are now growing up with this, whereas for other generations they're learning to kind of incorporate it into their own lives, aren't they? 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:15.919 So, oh thanks, Sam Marie. 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:16.879 That's really interesting. 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:23.120 Laura, does any of that sort of resonate with you, or are there any other bits that we feel for our parents and carers? 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.000 Yeah, I think um, yeah, yeah, completely. 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:34.240 So um the communication, keeping it non non-judgmental, open with your child, so your child feels like they can talk to you. 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:40.720 Yes, because often children will stay silent because of fear in the the parents' reaction. 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:43.279 That Laura, that's really important. 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:48.559 I mean, I've got a 29-year-old now, and I was a single parent for you know the first 13 years of his life. 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:53.120 And I think the one thing I kind of pride myself on is the fact that I always try to do that. 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:56.960 It doesn't matter how big a problem it is, it doesn't matter what kind of trouble you're in. 00:12:57.039 --> 00:12:58.879 I'm here, I'm on your side. 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:06.399 Um, because sometimes they just need to know that no bad no matter how bad it is, there's someone fighting their their corner, you know what I mean? 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:15.279 Um, and and I speak to my son now, and you know, he always says that to me, he always says, Look, you know, you're the first person that if I was in trouble, I would know I could come to. 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:30.080 And that's not always possible, don't get me wrong, you know, it's not always possible, but I think it is about that and being non-judgmental, and she's kind of saying, Look, no matter who I might be angry initially, you know, I might I might be mad that you've done it, but we'll sort it, we'll get it sorted. 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:30.960 I'm here. 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:37.279 Um, I think when parents kind of put those strict guidelines down and say, if I ever found out you were doing this, I would be upset, you know. 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:41.279 And with some children, the worst thing you can say to a child isn't it, is I'm disappointed. 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:43.039 Sometimes that's the worst thing. 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:51.039 It is because no child or young person deliberately wants to go out there and cause us disappointment or upset, you know. 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:54.799 And I think quite a lot of that we can model just in the everyday. 00:13:54.879 --> 00:14:06.879 I mean, I know we're here today talking about a really serious topic, but even just like the typical, you know, stealing sweeties out of the cupboard or you know, we can model it with the with the small stuff, can't we? 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:11.679 But you know, I don't I don't know about the yourselves, but I find that people are just so angry now. 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:16.159 You know, as a society, we're just really, really angry, aren't we? 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:18.559 Um and and I do, you know, I do it sometimes. 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:31.360 I I drove down to the shops this morning because I've got some builders in, drove down to get some roles, and um there was a learner driver four or five cars in front of me, and I could find myself going, Oh, you hurry up, and then I have to check myself and go, wait a minute, I learned to drive once. 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:33.600 You know, we just everyone's a rush nowadays. 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:36.879 So I think that you know that that's that's the big thing as well. 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:40.159 Everyone's so angry and so ready to kind of have a go. 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:44.159 Yeah, you know, as a society, we're ready to have a go and ready to give our opinions, you know what I mean? 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:51.919 And we don't just kind of cut people slacks sometimes, especially young people, you know, we don't cut young people some slack sometimes and just say how is it for you? 00:14:52.159 --> 00:15:02.720 You know, absolutely, which I think is a big thing, it's and that comes into my next my next point about parents regulating themselves first, yes, yeah. 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:05.840 Yeah, that's interesting, yeah. 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:08.879 Do you want to kind of tell us a little bit more about that? 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.039 And um it's difficult, isn't it? 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:21.039 You know, we've all got our own stuff going on, so I mean, how might we do that to kind of provide that sort of safe base for our own child? 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:26.559 Taking some gentle breaths, you didn't have to respond right at that minute. 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:29.360 Yeah, maybe you take yourself off to the toilet. 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:31.919 That's always what I suggest to parents. 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:37.679 Take yourself off to the toilet, yeah, have some gentle breaths and then come back. 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:38.799 Yeah, exactly. 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:40.879 And just think about how you're gonna approach it. 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:41.440 You know what I mean? 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:46.559 Just am I the way I'm gonna approach it, is it the right way to approach it that at that moment in time? 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:48.240 Or can it wait for 20 minutes? 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:49.360 But I think you're right, Laura. 00:15:49.519 --> 00:16:00.720 I think you know, in my experience in the police, a lot of the interactions with parents and children that weren't kind of pulling together was that instant kind of like you know, something said and the parents just explode. 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:04.720 Um, you know, we you know, we we go on about domestic violence always all the time. 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:10.960 Don't mean children seeing domestic violence, but you

know, if you're screaming at a child because they've suddenly done something wrong, it's no different. 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:16.000 You know, rather than like you said, just taking that step outside, couple of breaths, right? 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:17.120 How am I gonna open this quick? 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:18.399 How am I gonna open this here? 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:24.799 How am I gonna, you know, and you might not always get the response that you want, you might have to go back a you know, and I think that's the other thing, isn't it? 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:28.480 I think parents can almost expect their children to tell them it right off. 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:29.600 We we do it all the time. 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:48.240 So, you know, I train police officers and social workers, and that one of the first things I do for them is I I get them into a room and I ask them to write down, and this is gonna sound quite controversial, but I ask them to write down their best sexual experience, you know, and and it's very, very, you know, they sit there and some of them won't do it, and that's fine, you know, that there's a caveat of if you don't want it, you don't have to. 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:51.759 But my whole point is that and then I pretend I'm gonna read it out. 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:54.159 I don't read it out, but I tell them I'm gonna. 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:59.200 Um, and then the person who's called for me to read it out, I'll say to them, Do you want to read out yourself or do you want me to read it out? 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:00.000 How are you feeling? 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:06.720 And you know, and I've got adults that'll stand there and go, I'm terrified, I was hoping you wouldn't pick me, um, I'm mortified, I didn't know what to write, you know. 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:10.000 And I just turn around and I say, Well, how do you think that child feels when you walk into that room? 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:12.480 And it's no different for parents, you know. 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:15.599 I mean, if you're gonna walk in and go to a child, what have you done? 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:16.079 Exactly. 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:18.079 You're not gonna get a response. 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:22.559 Damage limitation, isn't it? 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:23.759 It's damage limitation, right? 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:26.319 Okay, how do I stop my mum and dad from kicking off? 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:28.559 Well, I'll just lie or just won't say nothing. 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:30.240 Yeah, what of course. 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:35.519 Yeah, and you know, I'm saying this as a parent with a 29-year-old that's that's taking a long time to learn these things. 00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:40.640 So, you know, I I do appreciate that it's not something that you know is reflection is great. 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:42.640 I'm not saying I've been perfect every time. 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:49.200 Um, but you know, I definitely think I used to get more of a response when I used

to kind of sit my son down and go, right, we need to talk. 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:59.839 You know, and and we're very much um we went through that phase of we used to really clash, and then we seem to have found that respect where it's very much like, right, you say your thing and I'll say my thing. 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:12.880 So sometimes it's about saying to your children, look, I'm I'm gonna say how I'm feeling about this, but then you will get your chance to tell me how you're feeling, or you know, how do you feel about it before I tell you what's upset me? 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:19.200 Um, you know, and and giving them that that open stage, if you like, to kind of say, Well, actually, this is how I'm feeling. 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:26.720 Yeah, and that's very respectful, you know, you to them, them back to you as the parent or carer as well. 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:30.160 Um, hasn't it goes back to what we were saying about being angry, doesn't it? 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:32.319 If we're also angry, then we're not gonna do it. 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:39.039 So I think the first thing is to kind of get as Laura said, the first thing is to take yourself out of the room, a couple of deep breaths, you know. 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:39.759 Exactly. 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:52.960 Yeah, thinking about how we're gonna do this that can't wait five to ten minutes, you know, and actually then coming back in in that regulated way, because you know, like you've said, if we're not careful, we're going to close the door. 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:53.359 Yeah. 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:57.680 Um body body language, huge thing, you know. 00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:07.440 I mean, I think thinking about how you're walking into, you know, I say it again all the time when we're doing interview training, how you are presenting yourself is going to get your response, you know. 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:16.160 And if you if you're walking in there with your fist fist clenched, red in the face region, you're not going to get a response back from a child because damage limitation. 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:18.319 Yeah, this is so, so true. 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:35.920 Laura, anything else from yourself before we maybe think a little bit about, you know, specifically about you know, why are again neurodivergents or those with learning disabilities maybe a little bit more at risk, which I know we've touched upon, but just want to make sure, Laura, because honestly, you've both got so much wisdom. 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.519 I want to use it all out of you both. 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:48.000 A few other points I wanted I wanted to raise was um Anne Marie mentioned about domestic violence, children being exposed to domestic violence. 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:55.920 So if children are being dis exposed to those kind of relationships early on, yeah, message. 00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:01.039 Absolutely, it's all role modelling, isn't it? 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:08.799 You know, and if that's what you're showing me, and that's my normal, where am I going to learn any different from? 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:09.440 Absolutely. 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:10.079 Do you know? 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:12.160 So sorry, ladies, I feel like I'm jumping in again. 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:19.920 It always makes me sad because when someone says that it takes me back to I had a case where um we had a young lad who came from quite a large family, you know. 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:24.400 I say this as someone who's grown up in the council estate or sell in a council estate. 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:26.000 Um, you know, not a lot of money in the family. 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:32.880 Mum and dad separated, but dad would still come round and beat mum up and you know, in front of the children and they would see it all the time. 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:38.400 And we'd done a fire cadet scheme, it was back in the time where there was some money to do things like that with children. 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:38.640 Yeah. 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.279 And he was one of the child, I think he was about 10. 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:43.920 So he was a child that was picked to go in this fire cadet scheme. 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.000 And it was six weeks with the fire brigade, putting out little fires and rolling up hoses. 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:50.319 Um absolutely embraced it. 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:54.319 And we had like a little passing out parade, and he was like top candidate. 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.759 And I always remembered the fireman. 00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:02.160 He always comes into my head, always remember the fireman saying to me, if you could take him and put him in something like the army, give him some structure. 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:07.039 He said he would shine because this six weeks he's been absolutely outstanding. 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:14.960 Um something like 10 years later, he's in custody trying to hang himself in the cell because he's been arrested to for domestic violence. 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:17.759 He's now a well-known domestic violence perpetrator. 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:25.119 And it's that it's it's that thing about we've seen we've seen that coming and we didn't, we we couldn't, why couldn't we do anything about it? 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.119 Environment is so important. 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:29.599 Yeah, you know, we predicted that years ago. 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:38.000 And actually, when you look at the violence that he witnessed, it's no surprise that that's his his language, you know, because that's that's what he witnessed. 00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:39.599 That's that's all he ever seen. 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:40.480 So I think you're right. 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:50.400 And then if you throw the neurodiversion in it, if you throw the the lack of an, you know, maybe they don't understand it, maybe they don't understand it as wrong, maybe they don't, they just begin to think that's the way of life. 00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:51.759

You know, yeah. 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:53.680 That's the signs that they get used to. 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:54.319 Yeah. 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:58.000 So yeah, sorry, sorry to hijack there, but it's just it always makes me think of that. 00:21:58.480 --> 00:21:59.759 It always makes me think of that young life. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:09.759 And it always was young ladies probably a bit older now, but always makes me really sad because that's probably one of the weak one of those points where I think we failed, you know, throughout my police career, that was a failure. 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:10.480 Gosh. 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:15.200 And I think you know, for anybody else who's listening, thinking, Oh my goodness, that resonates, Anne Marie. 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:18.319 Oh, now I've got a young person coming into my mind. 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.559 And I must say, I do think we need to be compassionate. 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:22.880 Yeah. 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:36.400 Because if you'd have had a crystal ball at that passing out parade, and you knew that when he was 32 or however old he is now, that that's what was going to happen, of course you would have acted. 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:39.839 But we Jessica, do you know, do you know the sad thing is I think we did. 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:40.559 I think we did. 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:45.519 We just we just didn't have the resources or or the you know the capabilities to do it. 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:49.440 Because we you know, we we can't save everyone, and I do get that, you know what I mean? 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:54.400 Resources and you know, strategy agencies are restricted, aren't they, to what they can and can't do. 00:22:54.480 --> 00:23:02.720 But you know, and and I think other than remove him from that family home, yeah, which we we'd no reason to, because although the domestic abuse was going on, that wasn't mum's fault. 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:04.880 Mum wasn't a bad parent, you know what I mean? 00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:05.359 Of course. 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:16.160 Um but apart from remove him from that whole setting, which you know, and I mean the whole setting, the community, the estate that he lived on, the friends that he had, you would have had to have taken them out of everything. 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:18.480 Yeah. 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:22.000 But I think weren't able to, you know, that's but I think you're right. 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:25.039 I think sometimes we we we do need to try, you know what I mean. 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:30.880 If we're seeing those signs, we need to we need to kind of push the the boat out a little bit to try and find something. 00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:32.720 Yeah, that's interesting. 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:34.960 Yeah, Laura, what about for yourself? 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:42.480 Um, so I was um yeah, no, I I'm in a thought of full agreement with Anne Marie, you know, like my background, I started in the youth service. 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:43.759 Right, okay, yeah. 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:55.920 Yeah, so I've started volunteering in the youth service, and what a valuable resource that was for me as a child growing up, um, and having all those positive role models and the education, you know. 00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:01.680 And when I started volunteering, young people would come in and they would ask for condoms and things like that, you know. 00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:04.960 They they were able to have those conversations with us. 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:06.000 Good. 00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:08.240 Because again, managing risk isn't it? 00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:16.400 You know, they're gonna take risks, they're gonna they're gonna try, but let's try and manage it rather than rather than just try and eradicate it. 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:20.079 Yeah, just make it as safe as we as we possibly can, you know. 00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:22.400 Yeah, yeah, gosh, thank you, lady. 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:27.599 I mean, I think we could talk about all of these questions individually for an entire episode. 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:30.640 So I'm gonna be mean and move us on if that's okay. 00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:33.920 So can I just highlight a few more things about it? 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:38.160 Yes, parents and what parents and carers can do to protect their ch children. 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:42.400 Yeah, because I think there needs to be a bit more on this. 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:50.240 So I touched on the educator education and the communication and talk talking about manipulation tactics. 00:24:51.920 --> 00:25:02.160 Yeah, if I had queer children, I'd be talking about manipulation tactics, yeah, um, encourage support, um, to build a wider um social network. 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:11.119 Yeah, obviously prevent parental controls on devices, um, online safety training for parents, you know. 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:14.400 We're we'll go into the resources later on, yeah. 00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:21.599 Um parents showing up consistently, as consistent as you can as a parent, shall I say, because I'm not a parent. 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:28.480 Um I know I can hear everyone shouting, Laura Jessica, you don't even have a child. 00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:30.000 Like, what are you saying? 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:32.160 Yeah, but you've got experience, haven't you? 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:37.440 You've got experience of children, and I don't think you have to be a parent to to understand what's important with children. 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:41.359 We were all children once, yes, yeah, I was a professional parent. 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:42.480 Um, yes, yeah. 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:44.480 Um exactly. 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:46.400 But I think people know what I mean. 00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:49.359 They don't know what I mean by yeah, sure, shirt consistently. 00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:53.519 Um ensure the home is calm and safe and predictable. 00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:57.920 Um, reducing conflict and tension in the

home. 00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:09.759 Children having regular routines, you know, creating that safety, that safety, um, knowing your child's friendships and whereabouts um easier said than done, I know. 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:14.720 Um and making plan plans if they don't feel safe. 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:30.000 Yes, yeah, um, listening, responding without overreacting, we did touch on that earlier, um, and not punishing the child, um and not blaming the child, like what were you thinking? 00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:52.880 Yeah, yeah, and I think sometimes we go to that point, don't we, when we're scared for a young person, you know, it's it's often coming, isn't it, from a place of love and kindness, and almost like a disbelief of what were you thinking, you know, and often that's kind of our own vulnerabilities of almost could I have done something, you know. 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:56.000 But obviously that often remains unsaid, doesn't it? 00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:58.880 So yeah, goodness, Laura, thank you so much. 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:03.359 Honestly, you're giving so much that it's just super helpful for us. 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:06.640 And there's one last one one last thing I forgot to mention. 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:11.200 So um I recently did some training with My Body is My Body Program organization. 00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:21.920 Yeah, absolutely fantastic um program teaching children um about body safety and consent using music. 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:25.839 It is fantastic, it's fantastic, yeah. 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:33.680 That feels like it'd be really sort of safe and accessible, you know, kind of using music as the kind of communication tool that way. 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:34.799 Yeah, absolutely. 00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:37.200 If I could sing, I would sing it. 00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:44.079 Okay, go ahead, we don't mean right. 00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:46.720 Let's save our listeners' ears, okay? 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:55.119 Listeners don't panic, we're not going to do self-karaoke, exactly, exactly. 00:27:55.759 --> 00:28:00.960 Well, I'm itching to ask you this next one because this is a real area of interest for me. 00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:04.799 So, and we sort of briefly touched upon it in the introduction, didn't we? 00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:13.119 But why is it then that neurodivergent young people, you know, or maybe those with learning disabilities are more at risk than? 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:22.799 I mean, we've mentioned maybe sometimes not spotting it, not knowing, you know, maybe kind of missing what might be red flags to others. 00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:27.759 But is there anything else that you know you feel that we almost need to be thinking about? 00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:41.200 I know we mentioned, I think mentioned a bit that belonging, um, and often bullying, they're exposed to bullying, um, and often socially excluded, uh or the social exclusion, shall I say? 00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:47.119 Um I think that that really needs

to be looked at um as a whole, um, which obviously makes them more vulnerable. 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:54.480 Um, there's like language difficulties, literal, literal processing, um, communication, especially with like non-verbal. 00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:55.839 Yes. 00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:07.519 Children with um speech and language difficulties um can struggle to articulate kind of what's happening and understand. 00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:15.039 Um, you've got the stuff like the rejection sense um rejection sensitivity uh elements, yeah. 00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:34.000 Um you've got the sensory, um, so it can make it harder to name or recognise physiological responses and dangers and emotions, um, family and systematic factors, um, compliance as well, compliance with authority, maybe there. 00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:38.319 Yeah, yeah, that's a big one. 00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:42.400 Um, lack of sexual education. 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:44.880 Oh, yeah, definitely. 00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:58.640 Um, and I think we we've looked more into kind of the ADHD, you've got the executive functioning and positivity, not being able to recognise long-term consequences and risks, not for every ADHD, but um for some. 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:24.559 Um, the delayed gratification, um maybe fixations and difficulties in um disengaging with um some are used like a like a hook, um doping drivers, for gifts, excitement, um, secret jokes, feeling like this being special, um and being chosen and praised. 00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:28.160 Yes, yes, absolutely, yeah. 00:30:28.400 --> 00:31:00.799 And I think going back to maybe compliance for a moment, I was thinking compliance in terms of almost like fawning responses and those sorts of things as well, and also the way that we sometimes, and it's understandable, but the way that we often will parent or care for neurodiverse young people, will be you know, say yes to adults, be respectful, follow instructions, do as they say, you know, those kind of social scripts normally really helpful, aren't they, for sort of navigating, you know, the day-to-day. 00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:05.920 But I imagine sometimes those sorts of things most likely open up more risk, you know. 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:18.480 Could we almost, albeit inadvertently, making it harder maybe for some children to recognise that actually they are allowed to say no when things don't feel right, things don't feel safe? 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:19.359 Yeah. 00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:23.759 Well, and I think if you've got a child that masks a lot as well, you know what I mean? 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:27.200 And then and then what what do we want for our children, you know, as parents? 00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:31.119 We want them to fit in, we want them to have friends, we want them to get involved in activities. 00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:34.640 And sometimes it's very hard to hear a child say, No, I don't want to do that. 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:38.640 You know, so sometimes that child might

feel that they have to fit in because that's what mum and dad want. 00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:43.680 Mum and dad want them to go to a music club or want them to go to the youth club on a Friday night. 00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:45.680 I don't I know there's no youth clubs anymore, is there? 00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:54.640 But you know, I mean, it it's almost like like you were saying, that fits in with the compliance and it fits in with the and I think Laura kind of touched on it, the whole hook thing. 00:31:54.799 --> 00:32:05.279 We forget as we all the perpetrators are clever and they they they study these children, they work out what what's their interest because that's their hook, you know what I mean? 00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:12.640 They don't just randomly walk up and just you know, they they know they know the child's sitting in their own, so they'll go over and they'll say, Oh, why are you sitting in your own? 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:14.160 What kind of things she like doing? 00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:21.039 And you know, and I mean I think about when I used to be a police officer and used to get to speak to children on a child protection basis. 00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:36.559 You know, if a if a young child said, Oh, I liked minecraft, now I didn't know anything about minecraft, but I would almost fake it because that was a common ground, you know, and if I can do that about Minecraft, which even now I can't tell you what minecraft even stands for, I think there's little figures involved, that's about it. 00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:44.640 But you know, if I can mask enough for that child to think that I'm interested in that subject, then you know, these people out there can do that just as easy as well. 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:50.559 Yeah, I um I do a fair bit of private tutoring as well. 00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:56.160 Um, and same thing, you know, there might be a new movie that comes out, very quick. 00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:57.519 Google, oh yeah. 00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:01.359 I mean, I I don't I can't remember now, but you know, oh SpongeBob, isn't he so cool? 00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:03.920 Like, love his colours, what a great character. 00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:06.880 And I might have just put on Google Images for two seconds, you know. 00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:08.559 But again, you've hit it in the head, Jessica. 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:09.920 How easy, how easy is it? 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.319 How easy is it to skill yourself up in two sex? 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:14.160 Yeah, absolutely. 00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:20.400 And then if you've been trained that oh, you know, we can be friends with people who have common interests. 00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:25.839 So if somebody else likes Spongebob on Minecraft too, yeah, they're a safe adult. 00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:39.759 Do you know the last the last study I read it it mentioned that there was a report of 75% of neurodivergent um children have been exploited? 00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:40.400 Wow. 00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:42.960 That's what's being reported. 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:48.000 And then we think about you know, if hidden figures. 00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:54.640 I mean, gosh, Amory, you all know all about hidden figures of crime and all you know that kind of side of that's yeah, reported. 00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:55.599 Oh my goodness. 00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:59.519 So it's gonna be I couldn't believe it when I I read that figure. 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:01.119 Shocking, yeah. 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:01.839 Wow. 00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:10.480 I mean, maybe let's see if we can dig that out because maybe we can pop it into the show notes for our listeners because I guess it's quite like unbelievable almost, isn't it? 00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:16.480 Yeah, goodness me, wow, gosh, does that come as a surprise, uh surprise to yourself, Anne-Marie? 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:28.320 Or is that kind of more in line with yeah, I mean, I wasn't I wasn't aware, I wasn't aware of that number, and I and I guess yeah, you know, that's extremely high, but um yeah, you know, I think of other things. 00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:46.000 And I I was just having a the the builder that's doing some homework from is actually my cousin, and we were just speaking this morning, and he was talking about he'd seen some research where um there was some kids in the park, and uh the parents were like, Oh, they know not to talk to strangers, they've been told about stranger danger, they know not to talk to strangers. 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:48.639 And this guy said, Well, look, I'm part of a social experiment. 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:49.920 I've got my dog here. 00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:54.639 Would you be happy for me to approach your child with my dog and just see if they'd speak to me? 00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:56.320 And the parents were like, Yeah, yeah, it's fine. 00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:58.800 They're told not to speak to anyone, even if you've got a dog. 00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:01.679 Every single child that approached in the park walked off with them. 00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:08.480 Oh, yeah, I can imagine because of the dog, you know, and it was just that this is Cookie the dog, and the dog was extremely friendly. 00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:12.400 The child starts playing with the dog and then just starts to kind of walk to the edge of the park. 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:28.000 Yeah, you know, and that my cousin's nothing to do with safeguarding, he's just got kids, he's got three three girls, you know, and he was just telling me about these fears of having three young girls, you know, and and he mentioned that, and you just think, yeah, we you know, so it does figures don't surprise me because I think you're right. 00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:29.840 I think there's a lot that we don't know about. 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:33.039 Um you know, it's just the stuff they're willing to put out to the public, isn't it? 00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:35.599 Wow, oh yeah going on from that. 00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:39.679 I think it

might be good to mention the types of green men. 00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:43.840 Yes, please, yes, tell us about those. 00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:46.880 Do you do you want to start on this one, uh Marie? 00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:47.920 Um, yeah, I don't mind. 00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:52.719 So, you know, we've got our I always struggle with this one because it's not boyfriend anymore, is it? 00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:55.199 It's um what do we call it now? 00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:57.199 You go for it, Laura, you tell me. 00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:07.840 Oh no, I've I've I've always referred to the boyfriend, girlfriend kind of so do I have, but I'm sure I'm sure at some point someone said, Oh no, we don't, you know, it's the usual, we don't we don't call it that one anymore. 00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:11.280 And I was like, all right, okay, that's that's how I've always known it. 00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:13.360 Yeah, that was the last brain I was on. 00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:29.679 Yeah, and that that's kind of so we've got you know, you've obviously got your romantic grooming, your your relationship-based grooming, which I guess fits in with a boyfriend, girlfriend, maybe that's kind of what they call it, where you know there's a a false sense of that deep romantic relationship that's going to be going on. 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:33.199 Um, you know, then you start going into love bombing as they call it, don't they? 00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:36.239 And you know, the control and coerce and that kind of thing. 00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:38.000 Um group grooming. 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:51.679 So, you know, when it's done as a group, so you you you group a kid in a park, and then that kid gets taken in by them, um, levering, levering their desire, I suppose, to be involved in the protection that it brings, yeah, you know, kind of fits into your gang related, doesn't it? 00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:56.079 Institutional, you know, we see it know we're an institutional one. 00:36:56.239 --> 00:37:03.920 Um and I guess the only other one I can think of off the top of my head, Laura, is the material and the financial grooming that you can have, you know what I mean? 00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:05.119 That we know, don't we? 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:15.280 If you're oh I suppose there's online as well, but if you're offering that child, you know, something that they can't get or they don't have, either they're not allowed it or parents can't afford it. 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.400 Um, because let's be honest, nothing is cheap nowadays, is it? 00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:34.880 You know, I I um I went out with Matt and she went to buy a pair of trainers the other day from the kids section, and even then it was like£55 for a pair of kids' trainers, you know, and it's like, oh, you know, so if a kid's suddenly being offered something like that that the parents can't afford, then of course they're they're kind of gonna grab on it. 00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:43.519 And I mean online, I think online is is quite

scary because you know, I've seen how much it's grown over the years of me being in the place in 30 years, you know what I mean? 00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:52.159 And we are we are authority-wise, we are two steps behind at all times, you know, to this sophistication, it's just unbelievable. 00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:54.719 Um, and it's been around for years, you know. 00:37:54.880 --> 00:38:00.239 Uh I I I sound really old when I go back to the oh, it was so much safer when I we didn't have the internet, but it really was. 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:05.199 I mean, and say that there was obviously risks, but you know, there just wasn't that. 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:10.320 And I and I guess from a police point of view, I always used to say policing the internet is impossible. 00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:15.519 I mean we just we just can't we can't police the internet, it's just impossible to do it. 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:19.679 So um, yeah, I've kind of I mean I don't know if you can think of any more. 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.719 The party model, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:23.360 Sorry, yeah. 00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:37.599 Yeah, so when so when youngsters um are offered like gifts, like drugs and alcohol, yeah, um, and befriended by the perpetrators, you know, we're seeing this a lot in like the um the Rochd is it Rochdale? 00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:40.960 Yeah, Rochdale, yeah, the Rochdale, yeah. 00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:46.960 And yeah, Laura saying that, I had a job in Kent where um it goes even further than that. 00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:50.800 There was a party posted on um social media. 00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:51.280 Yeah. 00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:55.840 And that, you know, and it was literally like there's a party at this address, bring a bottle and come. 00:38:56.079 --> 00:39:02.320 Um, and there was this young girl who went there to meet her friends, couldn't find her friends because this house was just rammed with people. 00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:07.199 Um, a lot of young males and gangs coming down from the London area because it was in Kent. 00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:14.320 Um and she was she was subjected to a really horrific experience in that house in a room with lots of young people around her. 00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:18.480 Um got intoxicated, wasn't quite sure what had happened to her. 00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:22.800 Um, you know, and and that was kind of within an hour, you know. 00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:24.480 So she arrived there, her friends weren't there. 00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:33.280 This group of young men befriended her, started to kind of ply her with drink, and then next minute she's being, you know, sexually abused upstairs uh quite horrifically. 00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:34.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:38.960 That was on social media, all the time and that was just on Instagram, just a post on Instagram. 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:51.519 Instagram it might have been Facebook, but you know, one of those that um that you know, and and yeah, you know, so it going on that party model, it doesn't even need to be a case of you need to know people because young people won't want this. 00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:57.599 Young people will if the friends say, Oh, I'll meet you there, they'll turn up thinking I'll meet my friends or I'll just talk to someone else. 00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:59.280 And there's nothing wrong with talking to people. 00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:05.599 I mean, my my husband and my best friend laugh all the time because we go to concerts and I always end up recruiting a friend, you know. 00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:07.119 I always end up with friends somewhere. 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:08.800 I went, I went to a concert. 00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:16.320 I went to I went to a concert down in Kent the other week, and there was a woman on on the Facebook group of the band that I was seeing, and she was like, you know, I'm going on my own. 00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:16.960 Will I be safe? 00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:17.760 Will I be able to dance? 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:21.039 And I just messaged her and I was like, Don't go on your own, come with me, my friend. 00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:31.679 You know, and we ended up taking this poor, we ended up taking she was lovely, we ended up meeting up with her at the ground, we ended up spending the night with her, having a bit of a dance, and then you know, just because I didn't want her to be on her own. 00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:33.360 But is that safe? 00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:34.320 Probably not, you know. 00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:37.760 And if I if I was 17, would I be wanting my son and my daughter to do that? 00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:38.719 Probably not. 00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:39.440 Probably not. 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:44.000 It's because I'm in my 50s, and um, I'm not yeah, you know what I mean. 00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:49.280 So so why so why do we not think that a 15, 16 year old won't do that as well? 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:54.960 You know, if you caught if they're confident enough or not even confident enough, if they just want to go meet people. 00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:56.639 Um, but yeah, it was quite horrendous. 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:01.679 You know, do something innocent, look after that person. 00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:04.239 And I think but yet we don't know who they are, do we? 00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:04.800 That's the thing. 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:09.679 And I think what I'd like to get across with that one, Jessica, was that went to trial, that case, right? 00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:15.760 And and they were found not guilty, even although there was video evidence, you know, and that young girl. 00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:22.880 You so we we actually found that young girl because she she knew something that happened to her, but didn't know what had happened to her because obviously the alcohol. 00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:28.159 Um, she then she um came on the prosecution, so she gave us an interview, you know. 00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:34.000 We supported her

through it, um, and they get found not guilty in court, you know, even although there was video evidence. 00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:46.079 I think my appeal to young people, if there ever is young people listening to this, is that you know, the authorities can do as much as possible, but we can't always get it right because evidence is a difficult thing. 00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:53.840 So, you know, just putting putting yourself in that situation can can be really and it's just so easily done. 00:41:53.920 --> 00:42:00.639 Like I said, that I think that's one of the cases again that sticks with me is just because it was so quick in how it and how it was done. 00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:03.679 You know, when you mentioned the party model, and I'm surprised I didn't think of that. 00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:17.280 You know, when you we mentioned the party model, I'm just saying that it doesn't even need to be going to a party with people you know, or you know, yeah, uh you know, so it could be potentially life-changing for that for that person uh in that age. 00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:25.199 And you know, and it was for that young, yeah, it was for that young girl because she had to stand up in court, and you know, let's be honest, I can say it now, I'm not in the police. 00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:34.079 Uh she she wasn't treated, I mean, don't get me wrong, the barristers were very respectful, but she was put through the mill, you know, she she was put through the mill, she wasn't given it an easy time of it. 00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:40.320 Um, you know, and when we phoned her up to tell her the verdict, quite rightly so she didn't want to speak to us, and we've never spoken to her since. 00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:42.320 Um why would she want to speak to us? 00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:49.519 We we let her down, you know, and and I'm sure she's probably gone through life with that attitude of the criminal system let me down. 00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:52.480 Um so is she ever going to report anything again? 00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:53.519 Probably not. 00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:55.039 I doubt it, you know. 00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:58.480 So, but but we're getting it, we're we're going off on a tangent, but you know what I mean. 00:42:58.559 --> 00:42:59.840 It's just no, no, I do. 00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:07.440 I guess I'm I'm just trying to get across the fact that you know that that one decision to just think you'll be safe without your friends around you. 00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:10.000 And and don't get me wrong, it happens with friends around you as well. 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:14.239 We all know, don't we, that kids can go out with their friends and it can still happen. 00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:20.719 You know, I mean I mean I've I've dealt with cases where it's happened to more than one friend, you know, so it doesn't just have to happen to one person. 00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:25.280 You can have two or three friends there, and the two or three friends are offended against at the same time. 00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:27.920 So it's a really, really tough one. 00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:34.400 But um, yeah, you know, it is the knock-on effect, isn't it, from that day in that court case, you know. 00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:41.119 Um, so yeah, sorry, we we digress from the party model, but it just that came to mind when we mentioned the yeah, yeah. 00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:42.639 I don't think we have now. 00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:46.880 I was thinking about just kind of going back to the boyfriend, girlfriend thing. 00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:50.400 Is it not just romance-based grooming now? 00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:52.000 Yeah, I think that's what I was saying. 00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:54.239 Yeah, I think they cast it as romance, yeah. 00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:58.639 And then I guess that's you know, we it doesn't have to be male and female, doesn't it? 00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:07.920 It doesn't have to be uh You know, we we remember it from when it first came out, probably Laura, when it was, you know, a child goes to the park, it's introduced to an older boy, the older boy becomes a boyfriend. 00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:13.360 But the principles are the same, they remain unchanged, and it's been happening long, long, long, long, long. 00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:15.840 Do you know what another another thing about figures? 00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:21.599 Another thing that I'm getting and I get I get on my soapbox a bit about this women offend too, and women are quite horrible. 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:22.880 You know what I mean? 00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:29.360 And I think we underestimate, I think we're still a society that thinks that women are all maternal and women don't do it, you know what I mean? 00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:34.639 And I've I've dealt with some horrible women over my time who've been involved in that kind of thing. 00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:42.400 So I guess that's why it's kind of more a romance thing now rather than because there is women out there, and you know, and sometimes the women the women start it, don't they? 00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:44.960 Sometimes it's the woman that befriends and brings them into the circle. 00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:45.280 Yeah. 00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:46.719 So absolutely. 00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:47.760 Sorry, Laura. 00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:49.760 Yeah, so that was gonna be sorry. 00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:52.079 My my next part was the peer model. 00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:54.960 Yeah, because I I was I remember a case. 00:44:55.119 --> 00:45:03.519 Yeah, I remember a case of a lady was early teens, um, adolescent, sorry, teen, almost um, almost adulthood. 00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:05.760 So yeah, don't give any age or something like that. 00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:11.119 But um, but yeah, and she she was grooming younger girls and passing them on to men. 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:13.360 Wow. 00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:20.719 But it it but again, Laura, look how much it's changed because look at the amount of models we've mentioned in this

last five minutes. 00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:22.320 You know what I mean? 00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:24.639 We else back it back in the early days, Laura. 00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:29.840 When you me first uh on Jessica, probably when we first started out in it, it was what three or four different models? 00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:30.880 Yeah, that's right. 00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:33.280 Maybe one or two, and then it went to three or four. 00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:36.480 Now we're talking about loads and loads of different models, you know what I mean? 00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:39.360 Because we're we're learning more than what we've got time for. 00:45:39.679 --> 00:45:43.360 I mean, probably, you know, listeners, Google, count them. 00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:45.679 I mean, I think we'd be pretty shocked. 00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:50.400 You know, I think we're just about even probably touching the surface with this today. 00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:56.639 Well, I usually tell um I usually tell professionals when they train them the keeping children safe in education document. 00:45:56.800 --> 00:46:03.280 When it first came out about 14 years ago, I think it was, was um 40 pages long and had four levels of harm. 00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:09.679 It's now nearly 200 pages long and it's got 40 levels of harm or 40 different levels of harm on it. 00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:12.079 So, you know, that just shows you how quick. 00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:19.599 And it's it's great because we're all becoming more aware, you know, we're we're learning more and more, but isn't it frightening how much more we're having to learn? 00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:22.639 It's a yeah, it absolutely is. 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:26.079 Yeah, every day is really a learning day, isn't it? 00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:38.239 So anything else to add before we kind of maybe put the spotlight back on parents and carers in terms of you know the potential impact that CSE could have on them? 00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:43.360 Or are we happy to sort of weave into that one? 00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:47.599 Um, I think we're happy to weave into that one. 00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:50.960 Yeah, also yeah. 00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:52.800 So, what is the impact? 00:46:52.960 --> 00:47:01.199 I mean, of course, you know, we don't want to generalize, you know, we know that we can give our listeners some examples, but of course, every situation is unique. 00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:07.599 But you know, from both of your experiences, you know, what would you say perhaps some of those key impacts might be? 00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:10.400 Blame has to be a massive one, doesn't it? 00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:14.079 Yeah, guilt, guilt, guilt, blame, yeah. 00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:20.000 Thinking they could have done something or they should have done something better, or they should have they should have been there. 00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:25.199 They should, you know, that I should have picked them up that night, I shouldn't have let them get a bus home, all that kind of stuff. 00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:29.039 Um the the the the self-doubt about your parenting skills, you know. 00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:33.199 I mean, it's very easy to start questioning whether you're a decent parent or not. 00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:35.280 There's no perfect parent, as I always say. 00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:39.199 I mean, no one's got um no one's got the the award for being a perfect parent. 00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:43.199 We we all learn, and even then we don't always get it right. 00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:45.920 So yeah, I think that's definitely a big one. 00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:57.199 Um and and I think maybe maybe a a fear that they're not they're not how can I put it not not I was gonna say not bright enough, that doesn't sound right. 00:47:57.440 --> 00:47:59.519 They're not educated enough, yeah. 00:47:59.840 --> 00:48:00.400 You know what I mean? 00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:07.760 Because they might feel like they're out of their depth, you know, especially if they're not, you know, if they're not involved in the safeguarding world as such. 00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:14.320 You know, I speak to lots of people who safeguarding doesn't really come into their world, they they don't think about it the way we think about it. 00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:18.800 Um, you know, they don't they don't walk about thinking, right, how am I going to safeguard such and such today? 00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:21.760 Where else I think safeguarding professionals do to anything like that. 00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:23.280 Well, we do, yeah, yeah. 00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:29.039 So, you know, suddenly they they question whether it's you know, how how am I so silly? 00:48:29.119 --> 00:48:30.000 Why didn't I see that? 00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:31.440 How didn't I notice that? 00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:37.360 Um, so again, we go back to the self-blame, but also the you know, but I should be more educated in this, I should know how to use technology. 00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:40.800 Uh, you know, I I'm daft, I should know how to use a mobile phone. 00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:46.960 You know, I I don't know about yourselves, but I'm an i Android user, love my Android, can use it all day long, do everything on it. 00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:51.039 Um I've just started working for I've just started doing some work for the cricket board. 00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:52.480 They've handed me an iPhone. 00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:56.559 I wanted to cry because I don't get that. 00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:57.920 My husband is an iPhone. 00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:00.400 Honestly, yeah. 00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:08.400 Um, my husband is an iPhone, and see if I have to touch my husband's phone, I want to scream and throw it against the wall because it's such a different, you know what I mean? 00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:13.920 I hit buttons and things go missing, and yeah, um, so you know, so just something as simple as that. 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:18.320 And I think I'm quite um for the person who couldn't plug their

earphones in this morning. 00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:20.559 I think technology, I'm not too bad, you know. 00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:26.960 I'm not too bad, but but give me an iPhone or something that I don't get or I don't want to know about, you know, as I'm I'm very anti-iPhones. 00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:31.840 Um, so you know, so for a parent, you know, it's it's gonna feel so much worse. 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:33.119 Don't know a lot of things. 00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:35.039 Yeah, absolutely. 00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:54.239 Because I I I remember when I when I was working in CSE in the children's um homes, we would be checking the phones at night, and some children would have just a basic Nokia 92, so 10, yeah, and then others would have a top-notch, really high-spect phone. 00:49:54.400 --> 00:50:07.119 Um, and I would get anxiety when I had to try and check the phone that I didn't understand, and I would always get one of my colleagues to you're gonna have to do with this one because I just don't get it. 00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:08.639 I'm gonna miss something, I know I am. 00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:10.159 Yes, of course. 00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:11.199 We've all been there. 00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:14.960 That genuinely would be me with any Android device. 00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:16.079 Sorry, Ann Marie. 00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:17.679 Anne-Marie's giving me daggers. 00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:23.920 No, she's not, she's gonna I I cannot come to you if I've got an iPhone query. 00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:27.280 Um I think I think and Laura, you're quite right. 00:50:27.519 --> 00:50:37.199 And how often do you and I'm thinking about when I'm as in the police, um, and you know, as I get older, I worked with a lot of younger colleagues, so of course I would turn around and go, Oh, you sort that out, you're younger. 00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:41.920 Yeah, so I'd almost be handing it to the younger person to do it, you know. 00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:44.880 So no wonder they're so good at technology, you know what I mean? 00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:46.159 Super clever at it. 00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:48.639 Yeah, true, true. 00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:55.119 So so going on from the impact on carers, PTSD like symptoms. 00:50:55.440 --> 00:51:00.960 Um I was thinking, yeah, about you know, hypervigilance and that whole area as well. 00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:07.920 Yeah, yeah, they're their trauma response, and I know we touched on guilt and blame, but anger. 00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:10.159 Oh, anger must be massive. 00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:15.039 Anger, anger, their anxiety, like overprotectiveness. 00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:16.800 Big one, isn't it? 00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:18.159 Big, yeah. 00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:27.360 I always remember my son saying to me that he was bullied at school in a certain subject, and and I turned around my head, song 360 degrees, and I was like, Why didn't you tell me? 00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:30.400 And he went because she would have gone in and kicked off in school, mum.

00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:32.480 He said, and I didn't he said I didn't need that. 00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:35.119 He said I just needed to deal with myself, you know. 00:51:35.360 --> 00:51:39.679 And when he actually spoke to me about it, it was like getting hit over the back of the head when he was sitting on his computer. 00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:43.760 Things that made me want to cry, you know what I mean, and wanting to rip people's heads off. 00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:46.159 Um but but I could see what he was saying. 00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:50.880 What he said was I didn't need my mum going in and fighting my battles, I just needed to ride it out. 00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:54.480 I felt like I could cope with and I felt I could ride it out, and that's how I'd done it. 00:51:54.639 --> 00:51:58.480 Um, you know, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't, and I do appreciate that. 00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:01.360 Sometimes kids try to ride it out and it gets worse. 00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:06.320 But you know, there is occasions where sometimes it can ease off if they do choose to ignore it. 00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:08.159 Um, but you know, he's he's quite right. 00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:14.960 I would have been in the school and I would have been going absolutely bansai, you know, um because my little boy was being hurt. 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:27.920 So I think Laura's got a point, you know, the whole being protective, you know, and that can lead to kind of you know, a child goes out to a club or something, and then the parents go in and grab them out at a certain time because they've not come out in time, you know. 00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:29.679 The embarrassment then kicks in. 00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:31.119 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:32.800 Do you know what? 00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:37.519 Um, from from my work in CSE, it it put me off from children. 00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:39.360 From what I'd seen, yeah. 00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:43.519 So when you said about the overprotectiveness, I was very overprotective. 00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:48.880 Yeah, because the stuff that I'd experienced, you know, um in my younger days. 00:52:49.039 --> 00:52:55.679 Um, and I just thought, gosh, if I was the child was mine, God knows how I'd behave, you know. 00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:56.320 Yeah, yeah. 00:52:57.679 --> 00:53:00.079 I remember my son first learned to drive, you know what I mean? 00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:07.039 I was me and him really had a battle because I'd be like, just text me and tell me you got there safe, and he'd be like, Oh mum, you know, do one. 00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:13.280 But I'd be saying him, you don't know many car accidents I've seen, you don't know how many people I've seen that haven't got to the other end, you know. 00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:14.719 Exactly, exactly. 00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:16.800 It's very difficult, isn't it? 00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:36.079 To kind of balance wanting your child or your young person to have the freedom, you know, to kind of learn what they need, to be independent, all of those things, but then also I imagine want to wrap them up and keep them in the baby blankets, right with you, where you know safe and I think Laura's Laura's got a really good point there. 00:53:36.159 --> 00:53:43.360 I think if you've experienced it as a young person, it it makes it tenfold, you know, because you've actually experienced it yourself. 00:53:43.519 --> 00:53:45.519 Yeah, you know this is real, you know. 00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:48.239 And you know how you know how people can be. 00:53:48.639 --> 00:53:52.000 Of course you do, absolutely, you know, it makes total sense. 00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:54.000 Yeah, it really, really does. 00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:58.239 And Marie, I wonder whether we might come to yourself. 00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:26.800 I'm just kind of curious about um, well, if that's okay with you, Laura, just thinking about this gap, maybe between safeguarding training, you know, almost, you know, we've got to tick the box, you know, as an organization, we need to comply, you know, the government says, right, you know, we've got to have safeguarding training compared with training that genuinely changes how people do watch and respond to this, because as we've just highlighted, that's a massive gig, isn't it, for parents and carers? 00:54:27.199 --> 00:54:34.480 Do we need all the adults in a children's whether it's like self-Laura, you know, perhaps those that were working in youth work? 00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:45.599 It could be schools, it might be social workers, the shopkeeper in the local shop, or maybe the you know, the park wardens picking up the litter. 00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:53.039 And you know, I'm just thinking about other people out there that actually might see some of this stuff almost playing out. 00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:58.800 And yeah, how might kind of genuine safeguarding training look that isn't just a pox tick? 00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:00.400 And I think that's a really good point. 00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:06.800 So that you know, I've I've done all sorts of training and I've seen people who have, you know, I'll say to them at the beginning, what are you hoping to get out of this training? 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:09.920 And some of them will turn around and say to me, 'I'm here because I have to do it yearly. 00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:11.920 I hear I'm here because I have to tick it off. 00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:20.079 Yeah, you know, and it in the in a way from a trainer's point of view, that's always a bit of a my heart kind of sinks a little bit because I know that they are just here. 00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:29.199 Um and the other thing, the other thing I see a lot is um people don't, especially online training, people don't seem to want to acknowledge that they don't know everything. 00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:32.719 You know, and again, I make a point of saying as a trainer, look, I don't know everything. 00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:35.440 You know, I'm going

to learn something from each and every one of you today. 00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:46.800 Um, but people almost don't want to admit that they haven't heard of certain inquiries or or things like that, because they don't want to look silly and then and kind of nod their head when it's quite obvious they don't know what you're talking about. 00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:47.360 You know what I mean? 00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:53.440 But I think the big thing for me is I think compliance training teaches people what policies say, which is fine. 00:55:53.599 --> 00:55:54.079 You know what I mean? 00:55:54.159 --> 00:55:59.519 We can all we can all sit there and I can train people day in, day out on what policies are, you know what I mean? 00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:03.840 Um I I think it it uh does it leave them. 00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:07.920 I do I feel that people who do that leave the training knowing how to protect people? 00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:08.800 No, I don't. 00:56:09.199 --> 00:56:14.000 You know, um, and what I find is more and more real life scenarios are a real big thing. 00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:18.000 And and you get the best out of people when you do that, you know what I mean, when you do give them. 00:56:18.159 --> 00:56:24.239 Um so you know, when I do the police and social worker training, it's a face-to-face course, thankfully, because of the stuff that we we deal with. 00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:29.039 And I've actually got quite a complex case that I dealt with years ago that I use as an example. 00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:31.679 Um and and they they absolutely love it. 00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:34.559 And I give them it in stages, so it's almost like an investigation. 00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:37.599 So I give them the first ever phone call that's made. 00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:42.719 I make them think about so we we then think about right the joint visit, how are we going to do that joint visit? 00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:44.880 And I get them to go away and discuss in the group. 00:56:45.039 --> 00:56:46.880 And more often than not, they will come back. 00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:50.480 And the one thing they haven't done is had a conversation beforehand. 00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:51.440 Oh, okay. 00:56:51.679 --> 00:57:00.079 So they both rushed to the school, they've both introduced themselves to each other, and then they've walked in the room, they've both opened their notebooks and they've both started taking notes, you know. 00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:08.639 So again, so we go back to the I get them to say that and then I get them to say, right, so whatever happened to a conversation, you know, because actually you might know about this child better than you do. 00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:15.280 Um, same with things like little tips like um both of them sitting with a notepad in front of them, writing down a joint visit. 00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:17.840 What there's a barrier there straight away, isn't there? 00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:25.440 Yeah, I mean, someone needs to take notes, but if you're both sitting there with your notebook, and and I've said things to them like, Oh, would you ever show a kid what you've written in your book? 00:57:25.599 --> 00:57:29.440 Oh no, no, no, you know, I can't I can't show that 14-year-old what I've written in my book. 00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:30.480 And I'm like, why can't you? 00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:31.039 It's about them. 00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:32.159 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:42.719 You know, so I always made a point when I visited a child of that age or a child that could understand, I would say to them, I'm gonna take notes, but you are welcome to look at what I write at the end of it if you want to. 00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:43.679 Yeah, you know what I mean. 00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:48.000 There's no there's no secrets here, you can see exactly what I've written down on my page. 00:57:48.079 --> 00:57:53.519 Yeah, because you're not a child could be sitting there thinking you're writing anything about them because they're not gonna talk to you. 00:57:54.079 --> 00:57:57.519 So I think you know, so after that, so that's what I've kind of realized. 00:57:57.599 --> 00:58:02.880 Um, and I think the big thing is is people are still loath to go with their gut feeling. 00:58:03.039 --> 00:58:04.159 Yeah, you know what I mean? 00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:06.320 And and professional curiosity comes up. 00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:13.199 We we you know, we we we bring that rhyme out every time, but you know, they they really don't, they're not nosy enough. 00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:21.280 You know, I always say it's like professional nosiness, you know, they're not asking those questions because they don't want to offend, especially if they built up a relationship with that family. 00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:35.840 And I see it a lot in education when I didn't this isn't any disrespect to any teachers, but when I speak to education staff, because they build up relationships with difficult people, you know, they deal with difficult families, they're getting that child through the door for the first time in months. 00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:45.760 Um, so of course, of course, they're gonna be very, very loath to upset that family and break that relationship down because it might mean that child doesn't come to school next week. 00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:50.960 So I totally get it, yeah, you know, and it's a really, really hard place to be. 00:58:51.280 --> 00:59:01.280 Um, but you know, as I always say to people, would you rather stand up in court and be criticized for your practice, or would you rather be stand up in court and be criticized because the child's died? 00:59:01.599 --> 00:59:03.599 And I know one I would rather have. 00:59:03.679 --> 00:59:04.239 Oh, you know what I mean? 00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:06.400 We were made both, and do you know what? 00:59:06.559 --> 00:59:10.079 It's it it's a risk I'd be willing to take, you know, actually. 00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:14.800 But I've done it

wrong, and I've safeguarded the child and they don't come back to school next week. 00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:16.880 You're still asleep at night, yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:59:17.599 --> 00:59:20.960 Because I know that that you know you'll get another job, but you'll still sleep at night. 00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:29.280 I'll just go elsewhere, they'll probably go to another school, you know, if they're safe, they're happy, ultimately they're alive, you know. 00:59:29.840 --> 00:59:36.239 And you know, and no, and no safeguarding professionals ever been done for exchanging information for a safeguarding purpose anyway. 00:59:36.880 --> 00:59:43.840 But I think the biggest the biggest thing I see in safeguarding training is that professionals always assume that children communicate the same way. 00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:45.760 You know what I mean? 00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:47.599 So not the case, is it? 00:59:48.079 --> 00:59:48.639 You know what I mean? 00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:56.480 And then and especially I know we're going to speak about interviews, but especially interviews, they expect a child to find adult language, you know what I mean? 00:59:56.960 --> 01:00:02.320 Even in interviews, they expect a child to find adult phrases and adult sayings, you know what I mean? 01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:06.000 But yeah, if that child does, then we're concerned about why they know adult language, you know what I mean? 01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:11.360 So it's a vicious circle, but yeah, I think you know it's always it's the communication. 01:00:11.599 --> 01:00:16.079 Um they can have trauma informed training. 01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:18.880 I'm not sure that they always take it in. 01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:27.280 Nice, you know, and and there's a lot to take in, and and don't get me wrong, you know, I'm sure as you both know, it it's not something that you learn overnight. 01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:35.360 You know, I've I've had to learn from children that don't make eye contact with me, from children who want to go and kick off in the corner of the room and then they'll come back and sit and talk to me. 01:00:35.599 --> 01:00:36.800 Oh, yeah, you know, exactly. 01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:40.639 Yeah, I've I've had to learn things like that, and I've had to develop quite a thick skin for it. 01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:51.840 You know, kids that might want to swear at me and call me all the names under the sun, but the next time they see me or the third time that they see me, they might call me less names and they might actually be willing to talk to me a little bit more, yeah, you know. 01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:55.599 Um but yeah, it's it's knowing that child's baseline, isn't it? 01:00:55.679 --> 01:01:04.239 And I don't think and what what I noticed in the and again, I'm not, you know, I I loved the job that I've done in the police, and and I think police officers and social workers do a really hard job. 01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:10.880 Um but it's learning a little bit about that child

before you walk in that room, and I don't think we're always very good at that. 01:01:11.119 --> 01:01:12.239 Yeah, you know, yeah. 01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:21.440 We don't always ask the teacher, don't get me wrong, we're not gonna know everything about them in five minutes, but you know, do we ever sit there and ask the teacher, um, what can you tell me about this child? 01:01:21.599 --> 01:01:23.199 How does this child behave usually? 01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:37.360 I think the other thing we don't do, and I think a lot of this is down to the way the system works, is we get very nervous about um being accused of um I don't want to use the word grooming of um almost training them. 01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:40.239 So it's let me put it another way. 01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:49.519 We we spend very little time getting to know that child because we're frightened in court, we're gonna be told that we we've we've led that child to that leading questions and things like that. 01:01:49.599 --> 01:01:54.719 So we get very nervous about if we get to know, you know, if we sit down and say to that child, what's your favourite pastime? 01:01:54.800 --> 01:01:55.920 What what football do you like? 01:01:56.079 --> 01:01:57.280 Who's your favourite player? 01:01:57.519 --> 01:02:07.199 If we spend too long doing that, some barrister somewhere is going to turn around and say, you know, you've had this big conversation with this child and you've almost, you know, because it's meant to be professional. 01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:08.079 Yeah, yeah. 01:02:08.239 --> 01:02:14.480 So I don't I don't know if I'm digressing a little bit, but I guess it's it's back to that baseline thing, you know, getting to know that child. 01:02:14.719 --> 01:02:15.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 01:02:16.320 --> 01:02:18.559 And I see, I see in interviews all the time. 01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:20.719 The rapport is just, you know, in rapports there. 01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:24.880 I I used to, you know, I'd be interviewing a man or a woman for the most hideous crime. 01:02:25.039 --> 01:02:26.159 I'd have a rapport with them. 01:02:26.239 --> 01:02:28.559 The first thing I would do is go down and offer them a cup of tea. 01:02:28.719 --> 01:02:29.679 You know, exactly. 01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:33.519 I'd offer them a cup of tea and I'd say to them, look, we're gonna try and get you out of here soon. 01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:34.800 We won't be too long. 01:02:34.960 --> 01:02:49.199 Um, I might not stand the sight of them and I might hate what they've done, but they're not gonna talk to me if there's no no, no, yeah, no, you need the rapport, you need to build a relationship, they need to be able to trust you to some extent, don't they? 01:02:49.360 --> 01:02:52.320 Otherwise, again, the door is closed, yeah. 01:02:52.559 --> 01:02:58.400 And in a in a way, understanding the changes, you know, are are picking up on the changes in them. 01:02:58.559 --> 01:03:09.199 So if you've got a child who's talking

to you, and then you ask them a question and suddenly they start, you know, looking at their feet or touching their fingers or pulling on a thread in their jumper, you know, sometimes we ignore that. 01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:12.880 Sometimes we you know, we we don't actually think, well, wait a minute. 01:03:13.039 --> 01:03:17.039 And the other thing, sorry, just going on, the other thing I noticed as well is we don't take breaks. 01:03:17.360 --> 01:03:21.840 So we get in and we speak to a child and we ask them loads of questions, they get tired and fed up. 01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:24.159 But actually, sometimes we get tired and fed up as well. 01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:27.760 And we get to a point where we just want to get it done, you know. 01:03:28.079 --> 01:03:37.280 So we're we're just you know, and I always say to to officers and social workers and anyone else I speak to, there is nothing wrong with saying to a child, look, which is going to take five minutes. 01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:39.519 Do you want to go outside and have a bit of a kick around? 01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:41.360 You know, let's have five minutes break. 01:03:41.440 --> 01:03:45.440 Let's because no one wants to sit there for an hour trying to concentrate on something. 01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:59.599 Yeah, so yeah, so I get I I guess my thing would be the best safeguarding training, I guess, is is simply not telling people what they should do, but giving them some options and some ideas of how they can do it, because everyone's going to be different, you know. 01:03:59.679 --> 01:04:06.000 People people's demeanour, the way people communicate is going to be different, and it's it's played it to your own strengths, isn't it? 01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:07.599 It is, yeah, it really is. 01:04:07.760 --> 01:04:15.119 Well, like I I always used to use my accent, so because I work down in England, I would always go in and visits and I would always go, I've got a very funny accent, haven't I? 01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:17.519 You know, and they giggle and I'd be like, Can you guess where I'm from? 01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:22.320 And they just use that as a bit of a thing, yeah. 01:04:22.800 --> 01:04:33.199 Yeah, so yes, I think you know, it and and just yeah, I get I guess you know, not just simply telling them this is a tick-off list that you should have telling them how they can work it, I guess is what I would say. 01:04:33.760 --> 01:04:36.639 And Marie, you've answered like four questions at one girl. 01:04:36.800 --> 01:04:39.039 I love it, Laura, and things to add. 01:04:39.599 --> 01:04:41.280 No, I've got a question for you. 01:04:41.519 --> 01:04:49.920 Do you not think that um some organizations have made the reporting of safeguarding quite complicated? 01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:52.880 What you mean by the three or four forms that they have to fill in? 01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:53.360 Yeah. 01:04:56.400 --> 01:04:56.960 Exactly. 01:04:57.039 --> 01:05:01.199 Yeah, where they duplicate all the

work they've just done on system one, yeah. 01:05:01.360 --> 01:05:02.559 That stuff, yeah. 01:05:02.880 --> 01:05:03.760 All the time, yeah. 01:05:03.920 --> 01:05:08.559 Yeah, and it it never fails to amaze me, um, which is how complex it can get. 01:05:08.639 --> 01:05:19.039 And and every organization is like you know, I worked in the police service where we had three or four different systems, you know, and it all had to marry up, and and you know, and I think safeguarding is very difficult, isn't it? 01:05:19.199 --> 01:05:21.360 Because it's sensitive, so it needs to be locked away. 01:05:21.519 --> 01:05:24.239 Only certain people need to see it, which I totally get. 01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:29.199 Um, you know, I I totally totally get all that, but there must be a simple way of doing it. 01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:45.199 You know, um, I know I know I know some of the schools that I've worked in, CPOMs is I I always say I wish I'd invented C POMs because I do see that as is becoming a I mean it it could end up being a beast, but some of the things that's coming out now is absolutely brilliant, you know. 01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:49.679 So that they they do have a system where um staff can lock down the safeguard. 01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:52.639 So you know it's the same system, but they can lock the safeguarding down. 01:05:52.960 --> 01:05:59.039 So they're still going in the safe system, but if it's safeguarding, they can actually lock it down so only safeguarding professionals can see it. 01:05:59.280 --> 01:05:59.599 So you know. 01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:04.639 There is systems out there, but but again, schools probably use other systems as well as CPOMs. 01:06:04.880 --> 01:06:07.039 You know, I've never met a school where they just use that. 01:06:07.119 --> 01:06:13.920 So so I guess you know, I think we are trying, and I think the problem is that that old data protection gets in the way, doesn't it? 01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:17.519 But what can be recorded and what can't be makes it difficult. 01:06:17.599 --> 01:06:19.039 But yeah, I totally agree, Laura. 01:06:19.119 --> 01:06:20.880 I think it makes it really complex. 01:06:22.320 --> 01:06:26.559 And it makes me wonder how much doesn't get reported. 01:06:26.800 --> 01:06:27.199 Yeah. 01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:37.119 Um, and I think the other thing is sometimes, again, going back to policy and training, it's like, well, you should report it to the DSL or the LADO or such and such. 01:06:37.199 --> 01:06:40.239 And the amount of times in training, I say, so what happens if you can't get these people? 01:06:40.320 --> 01:06:44.159 And they're like, uh, well, how about you make a phone call yourself? 01:06:44.400 --> 01:06:44.960 You know what I mean? 01:06:45.039 --> 01:06:47.280 How about you make a phone call or you do an email? 01:06:47.360 --> 01:06:54.079 Or I mean, I do think communication has become worse in a world where communication is really good. 01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:54.960 Exactly.

01:06:55.119 --> 01:06:57.599 I think everything's more convoluted now, isn't it? 01:06:57.679 --> 01:07:02.159 And you've got people and you've got a coordinated risk things and all the things. 01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:10.800 And even I remember in the police, you know, we we went to uh uh our office a couple of years before I left child protection, we went to a hot desking situation. 01:07:10.960 --> 01:07:16.159 So we went from officers actually having a desk in a landline to suddenly they were hot desking. 01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:21.920 So people just couldn't get a hold, you know, we just can't get a hold of people, and and we've all got emails, haven't we? 01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:26.639 We've all got text messages, but yet people seem to find a way of ignoring emails when they want to. 01:07:26.880 --> 01:07:35.039 So I think sometimes getting a hold of people, and I've seen that more since I came out of the police because obviously when I was in the police, it was very easy to get a hold of another police officer. 01:07:35.119 --> 01:07:39.280 Now I'm not a police officer, getting hold of a police officer is almost impossible, you know what I mean? 01:07:40.079 --> 01:07:41.679 The irony of it, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:43.599 And I, you know, and it's really shocked me. 01:07:43.679 --> 01:07:47.760 And I've I've mentioned this a couple of times, and I'm like, it's absolutely horrendous. 01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:54.639 Where suddenly, because I'm not a police officer myself anymore, no one wants to communicate with me, but I'm still a safe guy, you know, I still investigate things. 01:07:54.960 --> 01:07:58.559 You know, so there's there's a couple of care homes that I've been investigating recently. 01:07:58.719 --> 01:08:04.320 Um and my worst bit has been my worst bit I can honestly say is been communicating with social services and the police. 01:08:04.639 --> 01:08:08.960 Yeah, I can imagine and it isn't that really sad considering that's what I used to do. 01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:21.279 And they they know that they know that because I tell them in my introduction that I'm an ex-police officer, you know, and I'm not saying that should mean anything, but what it should tell them is I understand the way systems work, and but it's just just been horrendous. 01:08:21.439 --> 01:08:29.520 You know, I've had to I had a meeting with social services the other day and actually to challenge them because they haven't passed on information to me, and their attitude was, well, your manager hasn't. 01:08:29.760 --> 01:08:30.880 I'm like, Well, who's my manager? 01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:35.760 Because I don't have a manager, I'm an independent, and I'm an independent, so yeah. 01:08:35.840 --> 01:08:38.720 So you're getting that experience, Anne-Marie. 01:08:39.279 --> 01:08:48.159 Yeah, and and that's what do you know what that's what's really shocked me because I'm like, oh, you know, and and it doesn't make you think back and you think, was that really that unobtainable back then? 01:08:48.319 --> 01:08:50.399 And and there probably was times where I was. 01:08:50.560 --> 01:08:54.079 I like to think I wasn't, but there probably was times where I was. 01:08:54.319 --> 01:08:57.920 Um and and again, don't get me wrong, you know, everyone's under pressure. 01:08:58.000 --> 01:09:04.800 I'm I'm well aware of the fact that you know, cases are more complex, there's a lot more of them, less staff, all that kind of stuff. 01:09:04.960 --> 01:09:09.600 But I just think in an era where we've got communication at our fingertips, you know. 01:09:09.840 --> 01:09:17.520 I don't know about yourselves, but how often do you get a text message where you look at it and you go, I'll reply to that later, and then you sit there thinking, oh no, they can tell that I've seen it. 01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:20.079 They know that I've seen it, so I better, yeah. 01:09:20.239 --> 01:09:29.199 Or if you're on Teams and someone sends you an email and you think I'll respond later, and then you're like, they know they know that I'm sitting here now and I haven't responded, you know what I mean? 01:09:30.399 --> 01:09:34.079 Yeah, because my WhatsApps with my read receipts, yeah, you're very right. 01:09:34.239 --> 01:09:36.479 You're probably gonna get a much quicker reply. 01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:47.359 Whereas normal message, I'm like, oh you know, and it's not that I'm ignoring people, I I do genuinely want to reply, but yeah, well, then you forget because you think, Oh, I have I've sent that message. 01:09:47.760 --> 01:10:00.399 I get those odd friends that send really loads and loads of long messages, and I think I'll respond later, and then two days later they're messaging me again because I've I've forgotten, but you know, and we're we're in it, we're in an age where communication is massive, you know what I mean? 01:10:00.479 --> 01:10:10.800 It's a society where you you you're never far away from being able to, or you shouldn't be far away from being able to contact someone, so yeah, um, yeah, it's a bit of but yeah, I totally agree, Laura. 01:10:10.880 --> 01:10:15.199 I think we comp I I don't know how we make it easier, I have to admit, I don't have the answer. 01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:20.319 Um, but we definitely make it more complex, and and it's been like that for years, you know. 01:10:20.399 --> 01:10:31.600 I remember um before the SOAM inquiry, you know, where police all police forces had different systems everywhere, and then they decided they were going to bring in this one big system that all the police forces would work off of. 01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:40.079 Well, they made it, I don't I don't know whether it was the expense or whether it was the size of it, but not all police forces work off it because changing their system would be too difficult. 01:10:40.399 --> 01:10:44.800 So we're we're still not we're you know, we're still not doing what we set out to do. 01:10:45.359 --> 01:10:46.000

Yeah, bizarre. 01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:57.119 It's I remember when it was when it was brought in kind of when I was in services working um a long time ago, and I haven't seen that. 01:10:57.279 --> 01:10:59.680 Yeah, yeah, wow, exactly. 01:10:59.920 --> 01:11:02.560 No, it's massive, it's massive. 01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:08.640 I mean, I'm very aware that this could well get the award for the longest episode. 01:11:08.960 --> 01:11:21.359 So I wonder whether we ought to think maybe about, you know, if we had, you know, as as a three and listeners, you know, by all means, you know, comment, um, you know, and share as well. 01:11:21.439 --> 01:11:23.279 We'd love to hear from you, wouldn't we, ladies? 01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:34.159 Yeah, if you had the power to change just one thing about you know how the justice or the child protection system handles cases, what might it be? 01:11:34.479 --> 01:11:34.960 Yeah. 01:11:36.399 --> 01:11:38.000 It's a big question. 01:11:39.359 --> 01:11:48.720 Um, I think you've you've um stun me in the silence law. 01:11:48.880 --> 01:11:49.920 Have you any considered? 01:11:50.239 --> 01:11:50.960 I have actually. 01:11:51.279 --> 01:11:51.359 good. 01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:54.000 You mean you may I prepared this, all right? 01:11:54.239 --> 01:11:55.920 I've already prepared this part. 01:11:56.159 --> 01:12:11.680 Um so I I think that we need services that are under the control of decent people with clear, open transparency to prevent institutional abuse of the past that are not under the control of the elites. 01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:13.199 I have to do that. 01:12:13.359 --> 01:12:14.720 You know, spot on. 01:12:14.960 --> 01:12:22.479 And I think you're right, and I think that takes us off on a different subject, but I'd like to see more um higher management that actually understand the job. 01:12:22.640 --> 01:12:36.000 So I think that kind of fits in with that because you know, the amount of times I've dealt with people who uh have either been promoted too quick or have never even gone out and dealt with a safeguarding concern, and then they're telling other people how to do it. 01:12:36.159 --> 01:12:39.920 So um I think it's just I'd like it to be structured better, I think. 01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:41.760 You know what I mean, than what it is. 01:12:42.000 --> 01:12:59.920 Um, and for experience to mean something, I get that sometimes experience isn't everything, because I get people can get a bit set in their ways, but you know, when you've got someone who's experienced, then use them to their strengths, and I think you're right, the whole thing, you know what I mean, is is there, but yeah, other than fun of us, you can't avoid it, you can't ignore it, can you? 01:13:00.159 --> 01:13:03.680 It's like to us like that, yeah. 01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:10.319 Yeah, and funny enough, we were having a similar conversation this morning myself, my cousin, you know, because always get into those police kind of chats about it

as well. 01:13:10.560 --> 01:13:14.800 And I think you're right, it's in it's in every walk of life, it's not just safeguarding as that we see in everything. 01:13:14.960 --> 01:13:19.359 Oh yeah, I'm I'm gonna jump on, I'm gonna jump on Laura's one and and stick with that. 01:13:19.439 --> 01:13:23.199 I think otherwise, otherwise it'll be a bit it'll be a bit of a monopest for me. 01:13:23.279 --> 01:13:24.720 Yeah, for me too. 01:13:26.560 --> 01:13:27.119 Thank you. 01:13:27.279 --> 01:13:32.479 It was interesting because I've I first started working in my early 20s. 01:13:32.640 --> 01:13:41.119 Yeah, I was working in psychiatric units, and these women had been groomed, sexually abused, CSE, it was all CSE, but it wasn't called CSE at the time. 01:13:41.279 --> 01:13:48.880 And I always remember thinking there has to be bigger people at play because this is one of the worst crimes that could happen to a human, right? 01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:56.079 Yeah, yes, so it has to be there has to be people well at the channel that are involved in this. 01:13:56.319 --> 01:14:00.159 But how many times do you hear of people that are, but yet they're never held to account? 01:14:00.640 --> 01:14:02.880 Yeah, it's never held to account. 01:14:05.760 --> 01:14:08.239 Yeah, yeah, that's for another day, I think. 01:14:08.319 --> 01:14:11.520 Otherwise, another day, uh it's for another day. 01:14:11.680 --> 01:14:19.680 But you know, before we before we finish, and well, can I just say thank you first of all, you know, for gosh, so much wisdom. 01:14:19.920 --> 01:14:26.479 This is a very full conversation, and I think one that people are going to be revisiting you know multiple times. 01:14:26.720 --> 01:14:30.880 But I just you know, really just want to make sure as well that people leave with somewhere to go. 01:14:30.960 --> 01:14:41.199 You know, it might be that somebody listening today might have recognised something that we've been discussing in their own child, a young person they work with, you know, potentially even themselves. 01:14:41.359 --> 01:14:52.239 So if we maybe think about maybe any free resources or support that we might know about, and again, you know, I can pop all the links as well, um, in in the notes for everybody as well. 01:14:52.399 --> 01:14:59.439 But maybe if you had like your sort of top two resources each or something like that, that we'd want listeners to know. 01:14:59.760 --> 01:15:01.119 Any thoughts? 01:15:01.600 --> 01:15:06.479 I mean, one what a big one for me, and it's been a big one for me throughout my career, is the Lucy Faithful Foundation. 01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:07.279 Oh, yes. 01:15:07.600 --> 01:15:08.000 Which one? 01:15:08.239 --> 01:15:09.760 Yeah, Lucy Faithful. 01:15:10.079 --> 01:15:10.800 Okay, yeah, yeah. 01:15:11.039 --> 01:15:14.239 Um, you know, a massive one for me throughout my whole career. 01:15:14.399 --> 01:15:18.880 Um, a great knowledge base um to to go to, you know what I mean? 01:15:18.960 --> 01:15:20.800 So I definitely mentioned that one. 01:15:21.039 --> 01:15:22.399 Yeah, that's fantastic. 01:15:22.560 --> 01:15:28.880 And they've got um like tons of help advice, and if I remember rightly, they've got a helpline, don't they, as well? 01:15:29.119 --> 01:15:34.239 Yep, you know, and your stop at now's on there, internet, all that kind of thing is there as well. 01:15:34.399 --> 01:15:43.680 Yeah, but yeah, you know, throughout my policing career, that was a regular, you know, if I needed as a professional, if I needed some guidance and and I was always kind of putting parents. 01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:51.520 I mean, I think at one point in the police we even were given, you know, if we dealt with safe getting saying we were giving those leaflets out to them, you know, and and and they deal with them. 01:15:51.600 --> 01:15:59.119 I'm pretty certain if they still do it, but I'm pretty certain they help with children who are offending as much as uh children who are being offended against. 01:15:59.359 --> 01:16:02.640 So again, as a parent, if you know, because because that's the other thing, isn't it? 01:16:02.800 --> 01:16:10.560 Sometimes parents that their children will offend and they have to deal with that whole thing about the fact that their child is offending. 01:16:10.880 --> 01:16:20.319 You know, it doesn't stop them from loving their child, it doesn't stop them from wanting to help their child, but that that's that's a real, you know, that's that's a real breaker for them. 01:16:20.479 --> 01:16:27.119 So so I think I would say, you know, for parents as well, if if they're in that situation, Lucy Faithful is a really good kind of source. 01:16:27.439 --> 01:16:27.920 Absolutely. 01:16:28.159 --> 01:16:33.760 Well, I mean, if you're both up for it, I'd love to make we can have that as another conversation at some point, we could do it the other way around, couldn't we? 01:16:34.239 --> 01:16:55.199 You know, kind of that process of maybe supporting your child, you know, perhaps, you know, obviously, you know, having you know, kind of carried out some of those behaviours and how we support them through, you know, all of the you know, sort of interviews and investigations and those sorts of things, Anne-Marie, that you would have been doing because that's a really good idea, actually. 01:16:56.800 --> 01:16:59.760 It's not just you know the child and and the parents. 01:16:59.840 --> 01:17:03.039 And and Laura, was there any sort of resources from yourself? 01:17:03.279 --> 01:17:05.920 So I like um the training by envision trust. 01:17:06.399 --> 01:17:07.920 Okay, yeah, lovely. 01:17:08.239 --> 01:17:15.199 Obviously, there's the NSPCC, Bernardo's Children's Um Society, National Working Group Network. 01:17:15.359 --> 01:17:24.960 Um you think you know how, obviously, you've got your crime stoppers to report, um, obviously police, social services, um COP to report online. 01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:26.000 Oh,

yeah, yeah. 01:17:26.079 --> 01:17:26.880 I think they're part of this. 01:17:27.039 --> 01:17:28.079 Think you think you know on? 01:17:28.319 --> 01:17:29.600 I think they are, right there, yeah, yeah. 01:17:30.640 --> 01:17:31.840 Yeah, yes, yeah. 01:17:32.079 --> 01:17:34.640 Um, saferinternet.org. 01:17:34.960 --> 01:17:38.159 Um, they've got resources for parents and carers. 01:17:38.399 --> 01:17:39.119 Yes, um, house. 01:17:41.760 --> 01:17:45.199 There's also there's also one called Catch22, which is quite good. 01:17:45.439 --> 01:17:46.720 Oh, I've not heard of that one. 01:17:46.960 --> 01:17:56.159 Yes, the catch 22, and they do they do a parents pack online actually for for parents who think that their child is being exploited, so they're they're a really good one. 01:17:56.239 --> 01:18:01.760 It's something I've only become aware of recently, but they do a lot of stuff as well that is really, really good. 01:18:02.079 --> 01:18:06.000 Um but yeah, I think Laura's kind of covered more or less most of that. 01:18:06.239 --> 01:18:11.199 Yeah, and maybe get involved with your child's online life, so find out what they are doing online. 01:18:11.600 --> 01:18:13.680 Yeah, have conversations about it. 01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:26.000 And I think on on the back of that, I'd just like to say, I guess my my part and words would be that um just as I said, please remember that children very rarely disclose abuse the way adults expect them to or want them to. 01:18:26.720 --> 01:18:49.840 Um so you know, yeah, speaking through words is fine, but you know, think about the behaviour change, the the way that they're they're doing it, their emotional well-being, appeal to their emotional well-being, you know, and like we said, you know, that really important, take a minute or two before you kind of uh approach that conversation and don't approach it in anger or upset or or disappointment because that's just not gonna help any child, you know what I mean. 01:18:50.000 --> 01:18:52.720 I think we we need to remember that every child communicates differently. 01:18:53.199 --> 01:19:01.840 You know, they can be the same standard of education, they can have the same sort of you know, they they can come from the same family, but they're gonna they're gonna communicate totally, you know. 01:19:01.920 --> 01:19:05.199 When I look at me and my sister, we are totally different, totally different. 01:19:05.439 --> 01:19:08.319 And we were brought up the exact same way, but totally different human beings. 01:19:08.399 --> 01:19:12.079 We communicate differently, we do things differently, we believe in different things. 01:19:12.319 --> 01:19:18.800 So, why would our parents and my but parents probably have over the years, why would they try to kind of bring us up both the same way, you know? 01:19:19.039 --> 01:19:21.039 So, yeah, that's I guess that's what I would say. 01:19:21.119 --> 01:19:27.359 Just you know, yeah just remember that children don't, you know, they're not adults, they don't have that kind of language. 01:19:27.760 --> 01:19:29.439 Yeah, those kind of thoughts. 01:19:29.920 --> 01:19:30.960 Lovely puts. 01:19:31.199 --> 01:19:35.199 One one last resource that I forgot to mention, I you still use it now. 01:19:35.279 --> 01:19:36.319 Um, is pace. 01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:45.600 I love pace, and and the one you mentioned earlier, the um my body is your body, that's accessible to anyone, isn't it? 01:19:45.680 --> 01:19:47.520 That's not yeah, yeah, it's all accessible, yeah. 01:19:47.680 --> 01:19:51.039 Yeah, it's brilliant, especially for younger children, yeah. 01:19:51.279 --> 01:19:59.760 Um, and and children, neurodivergence and children with disabilities, you know, my body is my body, nobody has the right to touch my body. 01:20:00.000 --> 01:20:10.880 Okay, absolutely, and that's something that can really help with um, you know, all that stuff we've seen before around like social skills training, and that's something very, very understandable for everybody. 01:20:12.399 --> 01:20:14.560 There's some some really useful books as well. 01:20:14.720 --> 01:20:18.159 I can always send you a list of them, but some that I put out in my training table when I train. 01:20:18.399 --> 01:20:26.159 But there's there's one called Colour Monster, and I think it may be done by the I don't think it's done by the NSPCC, but it's very good for young children when they're going through that. 01:20:26.319 --> 01:20:29.760 Um, it's all about understanding emotions. 01:20:30.000 --> 01:20:34.960 Um, and you know, I've put it on the table many a time because I used to use it when I went out to visit young people. 01:20:35.039 --> 01:20:42.479 So again, it goes back to that, you know, sitting down with a young person and putting those colours in front of them and saying, you know, what colour or those little faces. 01:20:42.640 --> 01:20:48.399 Um the color monsters are the same, so there'd be a blue monster for being in a blue mood, yellow for being sunny, that kind of thing. 01:20:48.640 --> 01:20:52.319 But the amount of times that professionals have said, Oh, can I borrow this book and give it back to you? 01:20:52.479 --> 01:20:54.640 I'm gonna take it home and read it with my own child. 01:20:55.279 --> 01:20:57.359 Um, so you know, there's little things like that as well. 01:20:57.600 --> 01:20:58.319 Yeah, well, absolutely. 01:20:58.640 --> 01:21:05.760 And I know the NSPCC one does um something a bit of secret, I can't remember what it's called, but I can send you over because I've got all the books sitting behind me. 01:21:05.840 --> 01:21:13.760 But there is again, you know, there's loads of books that parents can get hold of and just read for their child from a young age, you know what I mean? 01:21:13.920 --> 01:21:21.760 Just read that book with and my my friend, and it's me publicising my friend, but my friend Michelle, she's done one that's called a bucket full of love or something like that. 01:21:21.920 --> 01:21:28.399 And again, it's just it's just a book to read with children about you know, all the complexities about growing up. 01:21:28.479 --> 01:21:31.760 Um and it's very simple and it's something that could be done as a bedtime reading. 01:21:31.840 --> 01:21:33.840 And again, it's that starting early, isn't it? 01:21:34.000 --> 01:21:47.199 Get that child knowing that you know, as they go through life, you're in their corner, you know, and and if they know that from a really young age, then that they're not gonna go much wrong when they're they're older, they're gonna make mistakes, but they're gonna know where to come to. 01:21:47.439 --> 01:21:48.079 They really are. 01:21:48.239 --> 01:21:48.399 Wow. 01:21:48.640 --> 01:21:51.359 So I'll I'll write those down and send them over to you. 01:21:51.840 --> 01:21:52.239 Yeah, yeah. 01:21:52.319 --> 01:22:03.439 And I will absolutely um attach those so that you know if any any of the lovely listeners out there, um, and thank you for being with us as well during this episode, um, then obviously they can access them. 01:22:03.600 --> 01:22:11.840 But yeah, I think thank you both so much for joining me and just for discussing just so openly, you know, your your experiences. 01:22:12.000 --> 01:22:20.079 And you know, I think just your passion and enthusiasm for just wanting to do better for children, young people and their families is is really infectious. 01:22:20.239 --> 01:22:33.920 So I think for all of us, our key takeaways are notice those changes, listen to our young people, take all concerns seriously, and let's not make a child responsible for recognizing or stopping their own exploitation. 01:22:34.079 --> 01:22:46.640 Let's all be the adults in children's lives, um, you know, in terms of you know, kind of trusting our own gut instincts when something doesn't feel right and follow your appropriate safeguarding channels. 01:22:46.960 --> 01:22:47.680 Yeah, brilliant. 01:22:47.760 --> 01:22:48.319 Thank you both. 01:22:48.399 --> 01:22:49.439 It's been really enjoyable. 01:22:49.920 --> 01:22:50.880 Yeah, yeah, likewise. 01:22:50.960 --> 01:22:52.239 Yeah, thank you, both. 01:22:59.119 --> 01:23:00.960 Thank you so much for joining us. 01:23:01.119 --> 01:23:05.039 To learn more, visit the Trauma Informed Consultancy Services website. 01:23:05.199 --> 01:23:06.800 We'll see you next time.