บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Janice Kapner

you know, regional sales offices and bouncing around. 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:56.240 And so oddly, then he had this appetite to run a um a small ranch and be out in nature and have animals. 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:04.959 And so I was that, you know, the kid that was uh quiet as the youngest child, and everybody else sort of was much louder and more gregarious. 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:10.000 And I lost my mom at a young age, so I was sort of that, you know, kid finding her way. 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:15.120 And what he used to say all the time, and it was very default, it wasn't a hype speech. 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:17.839 It was sort of like, well, you're gonna do whatever you want to do. 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:22.079 And I at the time, you know, you're a kid, you don't think about those things. 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:31.600 But I what I will tell you many, many, many years later is people will say to me, Oh, did you, you know, feel like you had to fight against being a woman in the workplace or, you know, those kinds of things. 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:35.920 And I said, honestly, I like everybody ran into my fair share of things. 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:41.600 But my father sort of just presumptively set a tone of, well, you'll do what you want to do. 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:46.160 You've you're smart, you're capable, you're a hard worker, you'll figure it out and you'll do it. 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:56.639 So it wasn't uh, you can only do this or you should do this, or you're gonna have to fight your way to the it was just this presumptive, and I swear it, it became second nature. 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:59.199 That's just sort of how I thought about it. 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:03.680 So my parents would tell you, well, we knew she would do something and be successful. 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:05.439 We didn't know what, she didn't know what. 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:14.480 We just didn't worry about it because I was that quiet, self-sufficient youngest child, and they were just like, She uh of all the children, who are you worried about? 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:17.839 Not Janice, which as an adult, you're like, that's a real compliment. 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:20.079 As a kid, you're like, whatever, you know. 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:22.319 I thought the youngest kid always ran the family. 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:24.399 I mean, that that's usually how it seemed to go. 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:25.439 At least it hasn't. 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.639 I have siblings that would tell you that's true. 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:33.839 That I I, you know, the I think you do, you sort of you're kind of Switzerland at the end. 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:38.720 You see the siblings that have lots in common, the siblings that have lots of conflict. 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:40.399 You crave your siblings' time. 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:43.600 There's a big age gap between me and my my um older sisters. 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:48.720 And and so you're a little bit of like you want to be

glue everybody together and shepherd everybody. 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:51.279 And that is, I do think that's a youngest child thing. 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:52.560 It certainly has been for me. 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:54.720 Did you have a mentor that stands out? 00:06:54.879 --> 00:07:05.920 Somebody, I mean, you mentioned your dad a few times there, but like that maybe led you in the direction of your career or changed the direction of your career, somebody that you really, you know, admired along the way. 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:12.399 Um, you know, I used to I the short answer is no, I don't have a single person. 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:20.560 What I do have is as a younger child with sisters that were 12, 14, 16 years older than me. 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:27.600 Um, I had this in college, I used to talk to friends and they'd be like, you know, oh, which one do you want to be like? 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:30.720 And I was like, I actually look at them as a blended entity. 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:45.120 I love my sister Pam's professionalism and drive as an attorney, my sister Barbara's appetite for the arts and desire to, you know, really understand that part of frankly culture. 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:50.959 My sister Deborah's just instinctive, maternal and um warmth. 00:07:51.040 --> 00:08:00.079 And so I sort of had this blend in my head of like, I want that, I want to be like Deborah here and like Pam here and like Barbara here and my dad's work ethic. 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:09.199 And I sort of had this culmination of you cherry-pick the things that you just thought were so admirable about your film, and I aspired to bring them all together. 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:13.839 And I'd like to think that I do in many circumstances, definitely not all the time. 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:19.519 And then on the work front, I took a similar tone of like you would see somebody who's like an amazing speaker. 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:21.439 Gosh, they capture the room. 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:33.759 I really wish, you know, I would like to learn that, or a female leader who, like an Amy Hood at Microsoft, who's just broken some ceilings and done some amazing work and is still a very warm human being. 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:43.039 I I would see those kinds of characteristics and compile them into the type of professional or leader or individual that I wanted to be. 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:53.360 And I don't have a clue where that came from, except for maybe being the baby and having all of these lovely humans that were doing different things in the world to look at and go, oh, that's so cool. 00:08:53.440 --> 00:09:00.000 And that's what, but it carried into instead of having kind of a single because I think I didn't know what I wanted to do. 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:05.840 So I had some lucky breaks and then I, you know, worked hard to take advantage of those opportunities. 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:16.000 And then as you go, you you see things you're like, I think that's so admirable, or I really admire how somebody does this, or and you try and pick up those traits. 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:18.080 And that's that's really how I've navigated. 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:23.759 Well, I think you might have just answered my next question because I didn't want to bury the lead. 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:33.840 I mean, when you see Microsoft on somebody's um on somebody's resume, if you will, or their career history chart, you're like, wow, that's impressive. 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:36.799 The question is, do you know how you got there? 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:49.919 Uh, you know, I have to try, I have to credit my husband for the Microsoft step for sure, because we I was at a startup in Silicon Valley and we were actually on an IPO road show. 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:55.440 Uh, if you know the company WebEx that, you know, does kind of what we're doing here with Zoom. 00:09:55.600 --> 00:10:01.679 Um, they had an IPO, got out publicly, and we were at a direct competitor company at the time called Placeware. 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:12.799 And the literally they IPO'd and kind of the bubble burst and our roadshow dried up really quickly, not because of the business, but because of like what was happening in Silicon Valley. 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:16.240 And um, it was a very unfortunate timing, right? 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:27.759 You're like, okay, they got funded and got out, and now you know, we have a a similar but differentiated technology, and we're not gonna have that window until and you'd have no idea, right, how long the window is gonna take to open. 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:32.240 And Microsoft came calling and they wanted to buy the company. 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:37.279 And I remember, okay, fine, Silicon Valley, things get bought and sold all the time. 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:39.039 It's not, you know, that's not the end of the world. 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:41.600 And frankly, the valley was really ramping. 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:48.639 So I came home and I just said, so it looks like I have to go start looking for a job since we're gonna get, you know, get acquired. 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:55.200 And he looked at me and he was like, and why wouldn't you consider doing a couple of years up at Microsoft? 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:56.320 Like Seattle's a great place. 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:58.320 We could do a couple of years in Seattle. 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:01.200 Like I it hadn't, it didn't dawn on me. 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:04.639 I just assumed we're gonna stay in Silicon Valley and I will find something else. 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:06.720 And he opened that possibility. 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:08.240 And the rest is kind of history. 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:13.360 And bear in mind that two years was back in 2003 and we're still in the Seattle area. 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:19.039 So it was a bigger life change moment than even just a career step into Microsoft. 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:23.600 And look, Microsoft puts you

through it, particularly in an acquisition to get in the door. 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:39.759 Um, you know, there's a little stigma of like if you come in through an acquisition, did you really earn the chair at Microsoft and you're gonna have to prove yourself and you have to go through multiple panel interviews, even though you're already a employee at the company they're buying, and most people get d-leveled and you know, all the things that come with acquisitions. 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:51.679 And so we had to jump through all those hoops in order to land one of the um the chairs, but I didn't know it was gonna lead to a decade and um and the success I had. 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:53.600 And it, you know, just worked out well. 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:55.600 Did you ever feel intimidated? 00:11:55.759 --> 00:12:01.120 Um, number one by the size of the company, and number two by by the people that you were suddenly joining in the room? 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:02.240 1000%. 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:07.360 Um, I uh there are I there are a ton of stories, but there are a couple that are kind of fun. 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:10.240 One, so you know, you get there. 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:14.080 I'm at a startup of about 500 people, I think it was at the time. 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:23.120 And you walk into Microsoft's campus, which at the time I would say the employee base was probably 75,000 versus the you know 200, some odd thousand it has globally now. 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:25.120 And it's this, it's a campus. 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:27.120 Like it's not an office building, it's a campus. 00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:30.399 So you're first thing you're like, I don't even know who's on first where to go. 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:38.399 I'm coming up from Silicon Valley, I'm you know, in a little blazer and skirt, which is not how Microsoft employees typically, you know, dressed. 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:49.919 I remember not really feeling good about how much time it takes to get from point A to point B for various meetings and different buildings, like the whole campus experience for a workplace was foreign to me. 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:51.679 And I felt very, very, very small. 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:54.799 I remember first big day, big meeting. 00:12:54.960 --> 00:13:06.159 I was racing to a meet meeting back in, I think it was building 34 where all the executives were at the time, and and tripped on the uneven sidewalk and you know, smashed open my knee. 00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:08.240 And, you know, and and I'm not worried about me. 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:11.039 I'm so freaked because I'm trying to make a good impression. 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:14.639 And, you know, they're pretty low-key. 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:16.159 And the good news is they're pretty low-key. 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:19.840 Like, you know, you can walk in in jeans and a and a sweater, and it's not gonna be a big deal. 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:27.759 So walking in and, you know, needing a minute to go clean up, it just wasn't a big deal, but I didn't know any of those things at the time. 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:39.279 And um, but the biggest thing I remember they put me in a bench program, which at the time, again, you kind of don't know really that that's as big a deal, but it's really meant for some top performers. 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:53.360 And I look back at the class picture, and this is a long time ago, things have changed, but the profile, I mean, when I was there, where they were like 75% engineers, uh, they were a high percentage of um men, and the women that were there were not that many blondes. 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:58.799 And so I think there was one redhead, one blonde in this group class of 50 people. 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:15.759 And, you know, and so you're intimidated by being a minority, you're intimidated by the reputation of the intellectual horsepower that the people at this company have, which proved to be true, um, you know, and this campus that's overwhelming as a young professional, you know. 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:21.840 So I yeah, I had many, many, many, many circumstances um where you were just like, you know. 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:23.919 Other than that, you were perfectly comfortable. 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:25.919 Yeah, so at ease, at ease, you know. 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:26.720 Oh my gosh. 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:38.480 So when, so with all of that, like when did you, I don't know, land on your feet with confidence enough to say, I am somebody that can advise senior leaders? 00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:42.720 Well, I have there's there's two meetings that stand out in mind. 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:46.320 And one of them was um in the first call it 18 months. 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:49.120 One of the things you have to do at any big company like that, right? 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:52.639 You if you're gonna put anything in the public domain from a marketing perspective. 00:14:52.720 --> 00:15:00.480 And at the time I ran marketing and communications, so I even had sort of, you know, which a budget which by corporate standards was small. 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:01.759 I think it was like$40 million. 00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:05.759 But for a girl coming from a startup, felt like a lot of money. 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:14.240 Um, but you had to take it to the CMO of the company and say, like, this is what we want to put in the pub, and this is what we want to run and when and why and how long. 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:16.960 And and you had to get approved to get on the ad map. 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:24.799 And so I prepped for that meeting, not really knowing what I was walking into, as often happens for all these new experiences. 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:37.120 And the difference for me at the time was uh what we had this hosted meeting service that Microsoft had acquired, which I now believe some of that code even sits inside the Teams product that exists today. 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:39.519 Um, it was a service,

right? 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:44.559 It was a sign up for a service, pay a monthly subscription, get new functionality as you go. 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:52.399 The business's job is to get a subscriber and then keep a subscriber, get you using, make you sticky, make you we want to keep your your subscription. 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:56.080 At the time, that was not the big business model at Microsoft, right? 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:03.120 They're software installs on PC, software off the shelf, software downloads was the way that Microsoft worked. 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.759 Um, and everybody else, by the way, that was the thing. 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:10.559 But the the way of a service model, service subscription-based model was coming. 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:13.759 And this little startup had already kind of folded into that. 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:23.600 But you had a business that was making millions and millions of dollars off of the current business model at the time, which is software installs or pre-installs and software off the stall. 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:27.919 So I had to go in and explain hey, we need to attract subscribers. 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:32.720 This is how we're gonna do it, this is who our demographic is, this is what we want to say, this is why we're differentiated. 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:42.320 And I remember one of the really ridiculously smart women around the table, because it was marketing had a lot of uh smart females, said, Well, why can't you wait until you launch your next version? 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:45.519 And I I had this distinct moment of like, oh, I got to educate you. 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.480 It is not a next version, like it's a subscription service. 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:50.159 We add functionality all the time. 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:55.360 It's not a, you know, Windows meets Vista meets, you know, it's not a new version. 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:57.360 It's a a different business model. 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:00.799 So there's not some, hey, let's wait six months till we have a launch. 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:05.440 And um, and they're so these are smart people, but it's just not wasn't the world they were operating in. 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:07.920 So you kind of had to take them through that. 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:18.799 And the short version of the end of the meeting was I got approval to get onto the ad map, which for our general manager was the job I had to go do, but I was not sure I was, you know, gonna get it done. 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:33.279 And I remember walking out of that meeting going, okay, like I I have successfully sat in front of the CMO of the company, her lieutenants explained my business, my business need, the purpose, the budget, what you know, they had lots of feedback. 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:41.119 We made adjustments, but we had success in getting the product into the um to the ad rotation so that we could drive our business forward. 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:53.839 And

I felt like I'd turned a corner of I know how now to influence and get things done with this culture of people that are very analytical, very cross-functional, and very feedback driven. 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.240 And you have to be prepared for all of those things. 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:00.000 Still to this day, I remember the room. 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:05.759 I remember the seating, you know, I'm like, it's one of those meetings that sticks out in your head, like, okay, I did that. 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:08.480 Now I can keep going doing things, you know. 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:16.720 Tracks to Success is proud to be sponsored by Ahead, a company that's been shaking things up for more than 30 years. 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:28.400 From premium golf headwear to standout apparel and accessories, Ahead has built its reputation on quality, creativity, fast delivery, and taking care of its customers. 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:31.119 They've never been content to follow trends. 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:34.079 They've built a brand by setting them. 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:41.680 If you're looking for gear that helps you look your best on and off the golf course, visit aheadusdate.com. 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:45.920 And don't forget to use the code TTS30. 00:18:46.160 --> 00:19:00.240 That's TTS30 to receive 30% off your personal order, ahead, premium headwear, apparel, and accessories, and the official headwear of the Tracks to Success Podcast. 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:02.960 Our guest is Janice Kapner. 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:08.799 She is uh somebody who has really climbed the ladder, and we've talked a little Microsoft. 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:10.880 I want to talk a little T-Mobile. 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:11.440 Okay. 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:19.200 Um you later joined T Mobile, a big period of transformation, 2013, I believe. 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:26.720 You were recruited to amplify a CEO's public profile. 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:27.920 Is that fair? 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:30.240 Um, yes. 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:33.039 And I mean, they were going through a turnaround, right? 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:49.279 You know, T-Mobile had recently hired John Ledger, the CEO, and recently hired Mike Siever, later CEO at the time, CMO, to turn to take a really dying fourth place wireless provider after the failed ATT acquisition. 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:50.559 They tried to acquire the company. 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:54.559 That acquisition was um shot down regulatorily. 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.319 And they got some cash for that and they got some spectrum for that. 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:03.839 And so the board went in and said, like, we're gonna bring a new CEO, new management team, time to turn this thing around. 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:13.519 And as part of that, John, Dave Carey, Mike Sievert, some of the leaders at the time were like, okay, we're gonna really flip this strategy at this place on its ear. 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.319 And to do that, we need a number of things. 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:19.119 One of the positions was ahead of communications. 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:26.559 And to their credit, they knew that they wanted to leverage the CEO's profile to help drive this turnaround. 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:35.279 And they knew that the discipline of communications and public relations was um something that could have a pretty significant return on investment. 00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:39.200 Like we couldn't compete with 18 team for Rise and Spend at the time, just wasn't reality. 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:49.039 So you kind of had to find a way to get a disproportionate amount of attention onto the brand to explain that the this business is no longer what you thought it was. 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:52.160 You know, our network is different, our our offerings are different. 00:20:52.319 --> 00:21:10.799 And and they really believed that the discipline of PR could play a key role if they put it at the table in helping do all those things, including using John's voice at the time to be a bit of a you know antagonist and uh and a provocateer. 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:15.039 And so they were recruiting, you know, for all of those things. 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:20.240 I don't know that I had any clue how big it was really going to be when I took the role. 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:28.160 Um, but it definitely turned out to, I mean, uh the business strategy they had worked and they definitely drove that thing from that fourth place on up. 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.119 So you talked about differentiation earlier. 00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:32.079 You mentioned that word. 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:35.279 That's a word I use all the time in my workshops. 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:37.680 You know, it's it's who are you? 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:39.519 Why do you do what you do? 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:41.039 How do you do what you do? 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:42.640 How do you do it differently? 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:43.839 How do you stand out? 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:44.960 How do you get notice? 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:47.440 Sometimes you got to make people take notice. 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:49.599 And that seems like that really fits here. 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:54.480 The uncarrier movement um disrupted the entire industry, right? 00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:57.680 Um what made that story so powerful? 00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:59.759 Because I'm gonna throw a couple of stats out here. 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:07.759 Wireless industry growth share jumps from 18 to 38 in about three years' time. 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:10.880 I mean, you talk about flipping the script, that's big time. 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:11.680 Yep. 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:20.400 I think look, the leaders that hired me were brilliant businessmen and brilliant marketers. 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:25.599 And they recognized that the industry as a whole had really been stagnant for a long time. 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:28.559 Look, you have big dominant players in ATT and

Verizon. 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:33.759 You have consumers that are not good, I mean, they'll give up coffee and Starbucks long before they'll give up their cell phone. 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:34.880 This is not an option. 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:38.240 It's even gotten more sticky as the you know time goes on. 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:42.400 Um, but really, I think John's quoted, he was on stage at CES. 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:58.480 He said something like if aliens from Mars came down and landed on this planet and watched how we treat customers in this sector, they would just not understand it because we sort of, we collectively, the industry sort of took them for granted of like it was more treated like a utility. 00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:02.160 And this management team said, No, no, no, we're not gonna do that anymore. 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:06.640 We're gonna actually treat it like more of a product service value add company. 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:16.160 We're gonna take away the pain points that these people hate and make and build loyalty and attract new customers because there's actual choice and a lot of people don't know that. 00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:22.000 And so they had a really smart business plan to go do that and a laundry list of things that customers were unhappy with. 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:24.079 And we didn't have a moat to protect, right? 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.480 We're fourth place, we don't have much share. 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:31.759 I think we had like 33 million customers at the time, and um, and it was a failing business. 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:36.880 So you're not trying to protect or can't cannibalize, you don't have much to cannibalize. 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:38.640 Um, it's a different business today. 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:45.759 It's a much bigger remote around your business and a big business to protect in 2026 than it was back in 2013. 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:59.680 And so that meant you could take some risks, you could do some free things, you could do some crazy things, and you could totally, to your point, differentiate from the more steady state status quo players. 00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:07.359 And so if you're willing to take the risk and make the investment and build out the network, then you could make some noise. 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:20.559 And then if you're also willing to differentiate yourself by being a CEO who's accessible, who used to go visit the front line on a regular basis, got on social media, talked on social media, went on the news a lot, poked at the other guys a lot. 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:27.920 That's that's not what a typical corporate CEO, let alone corporate CEO in telecom, was doing at that time. 00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:30.880 So that meant differentiation in a pretty big way. 00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:35.359 And look, reporters and influencers in social media love a little conflict. 00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:40.559 So if he's willing to play with taking a shot, then um, you know, they're

gonna play along. 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:47.759 And the the other guys didn't have a big fan base, they were again a necessary need versus like I love my provider. 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:51.599 So that gave him a lot of leeway to take shots and have people get on board with it. 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:52.240 Yeah. 00:24:52.559 --> 00:25:01.839 When I was um I was in Kalamazoo, Grand Rapids, Michigan, and TV, got this opportunity, one of eight when golf channel launched on air. 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.599 Um, one of the first eight. 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:06.880 So startup from the ground up niche network. 00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:18.720 LPGA joined there at a time when the LPGA was probably at one of its lowest points and a complete transformation of the brand through a dynamic leadership team led by Mike Wan. 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:23.359 And there's something about being there at a low point. 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:25.599 And you just talked about your number four. 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:28.480 Um, most people be like, I don't want to be a part of that. 00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:35.200 No, I think there's great energy from being a part of that because there's only one place to go from there, and it's build and grow. 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:36.880 Was that what enticed you? 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:38.880 Did you love that every day? 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:39.680 I did. 00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:53.599 It was it became this perfect blend of startup meets real brand, meaning, you know, I had been startup world for a variety of companies, which meant you did a lot of roll up your sleeves and do whatever needs to be done because you were lean and mean. 00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:57.839 And so you got to play and be creative because you were trying to punch above your weight class. 00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:01.359 And then I did a decade at Microsoft, which is an established company. 00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:07.759 You learn about cross-collab and process and a brand that is gonna get attention for right or for wrong. 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:11.200 Like if you do a good thing, you do a bad thing, but you, you know, and you bring those together. 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:12.880 That's really what T-Mobile was. 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:16.400 It was this energizing, like, we have a plan. 00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:20.160 I'll never forget the interview process with them lasted a while. 00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:24.000 Um, and uh, because he was still building his leadership team. 00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:30.720 And one thing struck me in that interview process, and I think this is what tipped me to take the role because I was still looking for alternatives at Microsoft. 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:34.880 It's just been, you know, Microsoft does a lot of career rotation, and I was like, okay, I'll I could stay. 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.839 I was working for Chris Capucella, who was later the CMO. 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:39.519 He's a wonderful, wonderful guy. 00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:41.440 And so I wasn't like itching to leave. 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:47.279 I had just hit that decade mark of like, ah, let's be conscious in choices and what we're making kicks and tires. 00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:56.799 But what T-Mobile did through that process is I would go in and I would interview, and you'd always have one or two scheduled, and it was typically with the C-suite or some of their right-hand lieutenants. 00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:04.480 But one thing that Dave Carey, my the guy who hired me, did is we'd be there, I'd do my couple interviews and be like, I'm gonna take you down the hall. 00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:07.440 Let's see if the CFO Braxton is available. 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:12.240 And it was not scheduled and it was ad hoc, and he'd you know clearly had equity with these guys. 00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:16.640 They'd clear 15 minutes and they would sort of plot me with them as a bit of a meet and greet. 00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:18.240 And so it was not planned, right? 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:20.400 You had a lot of organic meetings. 00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:24.799 And this management team, to a person, understood the plan. 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:28.400 They understood why they were gonna win, how they were gonna compete. 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:30.559 And they were so very much on the same page. 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:36.640 If that had all happened in like one day of a marathon of 12 interviews or something, I'd have been like, okay, maybe y'all prepped. 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:38.400 But that's not how it happened. 00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:39.440 And it was very clear. 00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:44.480 I was like, gosh, you guys really, you have a plan on how you're gonna go attack this. 00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:54.559 And there's a ton of consistency across all these different conversations from different disciplines, HR, uh, legal, uh, the CFO, the CMO. 00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:58.079 It was, and I was like, and they were fired up. 00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:08.160 They were fired up, and they were so they understood the discipline, they thought it could play a key role, they had a plan, they were on the same page, and they were, and that is what tipped me. 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:10.240 And when I got in, it was true. 00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:12.319 It's the risk we all take when we take a job. 00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:17.599 You could get in there and find out everything you thought you heard in the interviews was completely bogus, but it wasn't. 00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:19.279 It was very, very true. 00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:25.119 And people were, they were in, you know, sleeves rolled up all in, and that made it fun. 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:25.920 We had a lot of fun. 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:29.119 We worked hard, a lot of hours long, you know. 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:31.359 Um, but we had a good time. 00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:36.960 And the you don't get to good do quite the same thing when you reach a level of size, scope, and maturity. 00:28:37.119 -->

00:28:48.400 There's other things that are great about that, you know, once T-Mobile transitioned kind of past that, I'll call it, you know, turnaround, punch above your weight class stage, you get into a different phase. 00:28:48.559 --> 00:29:00.000 But and that was also great, but it wasn't the same kind of in the trenches fun, everybody wears magenta, confetti cannons kind of really celebrate the wins kind of culture. 00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:17.759 In addition to hosting this podcast, Craig leads the Cannes advisory group, empowering companies and individuals to elevate communication and build brand awareness with bold ideas, lasting impact, and his signature green shoe style. 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:30.960 From company consulting and team workshops to one-on-one coaching and transformational virtual programs, Can Advisory guides people to communicate with greater clarity, confidence, and empathy. 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:43.599 So whether you're a leader looking to give your team a game-changing one-day experience or an individual who wants to become a speaker and presenter, people remember, visit CanAdvisory.com. 00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:51.200 And when you connect, mention the Tracks to Success podcast to receive a special discount on CanAdvisory Services. 00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.599 That's CanAdvisory.com. 00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:55.759 Now, back to the interview. 00:29:56.319 --> 00:29:59.359 Janice Kapner is my guest on Tracks to Success. 00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:00.720 We met years ago. 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:08.400 I'm still grateful to this day that she had enough courage, guts, conviction to bring me in to speak to her team at Microsoft. 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:09.519 Um, I don't know. 00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:11.599 I'll I'll put that on my resume anytime. 00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:12.799 It was a lot of fun that day. 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:13.759 I always remember it. 00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:22.319 I want to talk about not finding opportunity, although that was a great one, but finding your voice because that's a big part of communication. 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:28.400 And at T-Mobile, that voice was different from everybody else's voice. 00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:30.960 You're the one on the on the line, right? 00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:34.960 Helping everybody figure out what we're gonna say, how we're gonna say it, et cetera, et cetera. 00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:39.680 And you got a CEO who you probably also had to say, guess what? 00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:45.680 You might not want to hear this, but or I'm gonna tell you you didn't really do that this way, or whatever. 00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:51.200 So I want to talk about you finding your voice to be the leader of voice. 00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:52.319 Make sense? 00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:53.920 Yeah, um, hard. 00:30:54.079 --> 00:31:01.119 That that's you know, um, but once you do, it's it's actually, I would call it one of the most fun parts of the job. 00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:08.160 Um, but yeah, I think

look, John gets credit because he tested me a lot that first 12 months. 00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:11.119 There was a lot of testing to see like, is she gonna have the gumption? 00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:12.160 Is she gonna answer the question? 00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:13.839 Is she just gonna tell me what I want to hear? 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:17.039 And um, you know, I took people at face value. 00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:23.039 I kept getting told by all the players, like, you your job here is to make sure that we're not drinking our own Kool-Aid, right? 00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:25.200 Like we it real time to be a reality check. 00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:34.079 Now, how you do that matters, particularly when you're dealing with people that are really smart, um, because they're not gonna take condescension or insults well. 00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:39.519 So, not that that's my style, but some people that's kind of the way they coach, and you got to just know if you're gonna be heard. 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:46.559 And so, you know, we went through a fair amount of what I'll call sort of trial and error of building trust. 00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:59.759 But once, you know, my process and my, you know, inputs started to resonate, and John and others decided, okay, yeah, like we her instincts are good. 00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:02.319 She gets what the business is trying to do. 00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:08.799 You you have to kind of dip your toe in the water a few times and take the risk of going out there and saying, like, I don't think this is a great idea. 00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:13.759 I had my second day on the job, and this will give you an example of tone. 00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:18.400 Um, they said, Can you come join the SLT meeting, which was the CEO staff meeting? 00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:19.759 And I thought, sure. 00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:22.240 I wasn't their direct report to him at the time. 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:26.160 And I was like, thought it was a hello kind of come sit in as a one-off. 00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.359 And um, we sat down, he introduced me. 00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:30.319 Everybody's very nice. 00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:32.000 I didn't even have a laptop yet, right? 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:33.920 I didn't have equipment or anything. 00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.279 And he said, Hey, this post just hit, this blog hit. 00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:42.960 There was a little website probably still out there called T-Mobile News, run by a third-party blogger. 00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:48.720 Used to get all the leaks when you know, frontline employees would leak a training memo or a discount memo. 00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:51.759 And so they always kind of had it, it may not always be accurate. 00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.119 Sometimes it was out of date, but they have a lot of news. 00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:57.119 And so they publish all the time. 00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:00.799 And they had published something, and I wish I could remember what it was, but it was negative. 00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:04.319 It was something that we were doing or price change or something negative. 00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:06.400 And they said, What would you do about this article? 00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:07.759 Should we contact the blogger? 00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:08.559 You know, what would you do? 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:10.319 And I was like, honestly, I don't even have a laptop. 00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:11.519 I don't even know what the article is. 00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:14.000 And this is in front of the C-suite staff with the CEO, right? 00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.000 And so you're like, oh my God, it's day two. 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:17.599 I don't even know what this is. 00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:23.759 And um, and so my boss at the time had his laptop open, he turns it around and puts it in front of me open. 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:25.519 And you know, so you're reading the article. 00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:26.240 Imagine this, right? 00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:33.359 You're in the executive boardroom and you're reading this article that they have deemed to be negative in front of the whole C-suite, watching you read it. 00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:39.119 And then they're you're wait, they're waiting for you to say, what would you do about it as the head of communications on your second day? 00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:45.359 And so um, I remember I was a little like, you know, a little getting oval warm in here. 00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:47.839 Talking about crisis communication, geez. 00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:48.720 Right, right. 00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:53.839 And I, but I I I will tell you what I liked about it was they asked, you know. 00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:57.519 I mean, I've worked plenty places where they're like, here's what we want you to go do about it. 00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:05.039 And you're like, okay, if you just want me to do as you say, then you're you need a much more junior person, and you don't want to pay me for that, right? 00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:07.119 Like you don't want to pay me to just be a service bureau. 00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:10.719 So he and he asked the question and I read it, and I'll never forget sitting there reading it. 00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:14.159 And I read it twice and I was like, this is so not worth anything. 00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:19.920 I mean, it was a very, it was a small audience, it was not a big deal, and I didn't know the audience yet. 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.800 You gotta know your your audience, and I didn't know them yet, right? 00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:26.159 I was only on the second day, and I was like, Well, we're just gonna tell them like it is. 00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:27.599 And I said, I wouldn't do anything, y'all. 00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:28.480 This isn't gonna go anywhere. 00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:30.159 No national outlets are gonna pick this up. 00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:33.039 This is not noteworthy, let it go, you know. 00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:35.679 And I held my breath, sort of, you know. 00:34:36.079

--> 00:34:37.840 And the CEO sat there for a minute. 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:47.519 Everybody was clearly waiting to see if he was gonna agree or disagree because he had good instincts in this area, and he sat there and he goes, after he made me sweat, goes, I agree, let's not do anything onward. 00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:48.559 And he moved on to the agenda. 00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:50.400 But it was my first test, right? 00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:53.760 So they but but it set to the tone for a couple things. 00:34:53.920 --> 00:35:01.760 He's gonna ask tough questions, but he wants you to give an answer, and so that starts to build your muscle of okay, well, then I'm gonna give you feedback. 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:04.639 And I had times where it blew up in my face, don't get me wrong. 00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:10.800 And I had times where, you know, you got called in and dressed down a little bit of like, this is not how we're gonna do this. 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:15.679 And but you have to try, at least if you want to have that seat at the table. 00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:21.679 And I did, I wanted to be an advisor, I wanted to be offering strategic counsel, I wanted to be coaching. 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:29.920 And um, you know, it got to the point towards the end where I really could tell you where I thought he what I thought his answer was gonna be before he gave it. 00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:34.320 You know, I could pen something from him and he wouldn't have a lot of feedback on it. 00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:37.440 I mean, we really kind of mind melded after a while. 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:40.559 And um, and I really it was my favorite part of the job. 00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:43.199 And then I started giving feedback to all of the C-suite. 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:46.000 You know, they'd be like, oh, so-and-so's gonna do a big keynote, go help them. 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:48.480 And, you know, can you help this person prep for earnings? 00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:50.559 And I far enjoyed that. 00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:54.239 Um, you know, more than the, hey, can you edit these three documents? 00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:56.960 Okay, let's play crisis communications for you. 00:35:57.119 --> 00:35:58.960 Um, I'm gonna I'm gonna put you on the hot seat. 00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:01.119 I'm gonna do a rapid fire, four questions. 00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:04.639 Oh my 15-second answers, see if you can do it. 00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:10.559 Number one, is it better to communicate quickly or wait until you have every answer? 00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:15.199 I believe in 90% of the time, quickly. 00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:23.039 Even if quickly is to say that you're still doing due diligence on what exactly is happening, because no news, they make up their own story. 00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:28.960 How do you say we don't know yet without losing people's confidence? 00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:38.639 Well, hopefully you can articulate a little of what you do know and what you're doing about it, even

if you're still in the it's under investigation mode, had to do it. 00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:41.840 It's not the fun place to be, but it's a lot better than silence. 00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:44.079 What about your employees? 00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:49.119 What do they need to hear during uncertain times in a corporation or a business? 00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:50.639 Well, you got to talk to them. 00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:55.840 I'm telling you, I think mistake number one made by a lot of senior people, it's a difficult time. 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.760 We'll catch them up when we're ready. 00:36:57.920 --> 00:36:59.280 And then they just spin. 00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:04.000 And I think you have to talk to them, even if it's to tell them in a month I'm gonna have better answers for you. 00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:04.719 Here's why. 00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:06.719 All right, you just took away one of my questions. 00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:09.440 So I have to pivot and come up with a fourth one on my own. 00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:14.239 What should a company have in place before a crisis ever arises? 00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:17.360 You have to do tabletop exercises. 00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:24.880 You need to pick six topics that are likely to your business and build out a three-page plan, phone tree, decision making. 00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:42.880 What are you going to do if your network goes down, if you're cyber breached, if an employee is fired at the C-suite, I don't care what it is, and run the table, do the exercise, and then put you can put it on a shelf and refresh it every three to six months so that when the real thing happens, you pull it off and you adjust, but you have a starting point. 00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:47.920 You have to pretend that it's going to happen, not hope that you'll figure it out when it does. 00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:51.199 You crushed it. 00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:53.119 Congratulations. 00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:53.679 Thank you. 00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:54.400 Thank you. 00:37:54.960 --> 00:38:03.760 Looking for a guest speaker for your next event or annual conference, Craig brings an inspiring and empowering message your audience won't soon forget. 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:13.599 Visit Craigcanspeak.com to learn more and hear what audiences are saying about the green shoe experience making an impact at events across the country. 00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:16.239 That's Craigcanspeak.com. 00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:23.199 And when you connect, mention the Tracks to Success podcast to receive a special discount on your event with Craig. 00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:25.199 Now, back to the show. 00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:29.840 Janice Kapner is my guest on Tracks to Success. 00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:31.920 We're starting to wind this thing down. 00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:46.800 I have learned um a couple of things in this, but one of them is amazing storytelling and how valuable that is to a person in being able to bring their career to life and their experiences in an organization. 00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:53.119 So I want you to help some people that might be going to a job interview and what they need to communicate a little bit. 00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:54.800 I think that's a fun exercise. 00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:58.719 Um, you know, oftentimes, here, here's my piece of paper. 00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:00.239 I got all these great things. 00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:03.440 And I used to do an exercise where I'd have people go, that's great. 00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:04.880 I want you to back up 10 feet. 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:06.480 Now I want you to present it to me. 00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:11.519 And people will be like, oh, and I'm like, if you can't bring it to life, then I can't have you on my communications team. 00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:18.719 So what do people need to be able to communicate about themselves to be able to climb the ladder? 00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:26.159 Well, I would say there's there's a couple of things, but the before they can communicate anything about themselves, they need to understand who they're talking to and what they're looking for. 00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:30.880 And I think that that, you know, it's the the kitschy phrases know your audience. 00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:48.239 But more importantly, like if you're in an interview, find out, even if that's how you start your interview, tell me what you're looking for, what's the most because you have to adapt your experience or your stories or your anecdotes to be relative to the person that you're speaking to. 00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:59.360 If you kind of run a playbook of like, here's who I am and why I'm great, and then you find out that what they really want to know is if you've had to navigate a big transformation anymore, they may or may not get to that question. 00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:05.280 But if you ask them, usually most interviewers, if you say, like, what is the most important thing for you in this hiring exercise? 00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:10.320 And then you have to be able to on the fly adapt to be relevant to your audience. 00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:13.440 And I think that's relevant in a everyday workforce. 00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:25.920 You know, if you don't know the business that you're working on and you don't know, hey, I'm talking to the head of sales and I know what headwinds he's facing right now, and I'm trying to propose to him that he do ABC for a launch or he do this. 00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:31.840 Boy, like if I don't have a clue what's going on in his world, why do I have any credibility with that individual? 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.400 So you have to know who you're talking to and what's driving them. 00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:37.199 What are they hiring or what are they trying to accomplish with the business? 00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:45.840 And then adapt your personal either experiences or skills or whatever it is that you're kind of trying to communicate to that audience. 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:55.280 And then the second

thing I would say is everybody needs to remember that how you receive a story or how I receive a story is not necessarily going to be the same. 00:40:55.440 --> 00:41:11.039 You know, you talk to, I used to tell people when I would do classes on content development for a speech or or for a panel discussion, that you have kind of two sides of the brain in the world, the creative and the analytical. 00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:15.039 And some of us, like I actually have done some of the tests, I'm kind of like 50-50 right down the middle. 00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:21.679 I like some data and some stats and some facts to, and then I like to be pulled in with an interesting story that can capture my imagination. 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:25.519 Some people are really hard to one side or the other. 00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:45.039 So when you build a story, and you know this from the work that you do, if you're going to get up on stage, well, you better have a combination of creativity as well as either analytics or stats because you don't know who you're talking to and you don't know what sometimes a really interesting stat will pull that person in and they're like hooked on the story. 00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:51.599 For other people, it's the tone setting of you know, the breeze and the day and the color of the sky that you're starting, and that's gonna pull them. 00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:53.679 You can't be sure when you're talking to a large room. 00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:55.440 So you better use a little bit of both. 00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:57.440 The same applies, I think, in the workforce. 00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:04.239 You need to know who you're talking to and what they need or don't need, but recognize that you can't be sure exactly until you've worked with them a while. 00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:11.760 And then I think you get to know people and you can kind of hone in on, like, oh, hey, for this presentation, I got to bring some stats to the table or it's not gonna make it past slide one. 00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:18.800 One of my biggest mentors in college, a professor, hall of fame professor, uh, God rest his soul. 00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:25.039 He used to tell us, you can't preach to anybody unless you can get them into the church. 00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:26.239 I never forgot it. 00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:28.000 You got to get people to lean in. 00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:33.360 Um, I I also am a big believer that it's not just information, it's entertainment. 00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:35.519 And you've got to find a way. 00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:38.159 You can't be stats driven, stories travel. 00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:43.519 Um, stats, stats are stats, numbers are numbers, stories travel, you got to be able to do it. 00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:50.480 So your story has changed, you've pivoted, you've gotten out of the corporate race, you die decided to change uh direction. 00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:54.559 I've got Can Advisory Group, you've got Kapner Perspectives Group. 00:42:54.719

--> 00:42:56.239 I like Perspectives Group. 00:42:56.320 --> 00:43:01.519 That means you're probably coaching, listening, analyzing, um, all that sort of good stuff. 00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:05.119 How different does it feel to have your own name on this thing now? 00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:06.960 It's really cool. 00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:13.039 Um, it's it's you know, I've only been doing about seven months on uh under my own, you know, shingle, as they say. 00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:16.079 And um, it's been such a learning experience, right? 00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:19.599 It's it's interesting, all the things you have to do to stand up your own LLC. 00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:26.800 And then when you have to put your first proposal together, get your first client, all those things have been um really cool firsts. 00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:33.679 But what I love about it more than anything is that I'm doing the part of the corporate job that I love the most. 00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:45.119 It's not the budget management, it's not the personnel management, it's the like, hey, I had a I had a person who um one of my current clients used to the leader was at T Mobile for a stint, and that's how we met. 00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:48.880 And he reached out after he took his new position and he said, Hey, is this true? 00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:50.719 Like, are you really doing consulting? 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:52.239 We could use some help. 00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:59.760 And um, you know, we got on the phone and the things that he and his management team are seeking input. 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.400 On are the things that A, I did with him at you know T Mobile. 00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:07.440 And so he had firsthand experience and he was like, I I want your input. 00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:11.679 It's nice to be not trying to convince somebody that you you can help them, right? 00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:16.400 In the consulting world, nobody's gonna pay you if they haven't decided that you know you're gonna add some value to them. 00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:35.360 And um and you're just able to be really honest and be like, I think you got to consider this or you shouldn't consider that, and um and offer to do more and offer to help, or you know, just give them the advice and sort of let them run and do. 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:37.760 And everything, every situation is a little bit different. 00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:48.559 You learn about new businesses, um, but you know, I'm not trying to manage a team and um and manage against budgets for the PL and that kind of administrative overhead. 00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:56.079 That when you get to the C-suite, there's a lot of time spent doing that versus, you know, as much time as you'd like to be doing the the heart of the discipline. 00:44:56.239 --> 00:44:58.079 So I'm enjoying it greatly. 00:44:58.320 --> 00:45:03.199 Um, it's been it, I didn't expect it to necessarily take off this fast. 00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:05.840 I had a couple people

tell me, you know, it'll come, it'll just come. 00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:07.360 And I was like, yeah, we'll see. 00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:09.360 And, you know, and it has. 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:12.639 And um, but I I like it. 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:15.199 I wasn't sure if I was gonna love it or not, but so far, so good. 00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:16.159 Good for you. 00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:18.400 Uh, two questions before we head out of here. 00:45:18.559 --> 00:45:23.199 The first one, I I have to, when I'm talking to a communications expert, we got to talk about AI. 00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:31.039 Just a quick thought on this thing, because my big thing with AI is there better be a whole lot of I in your AI. 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:34.559 Like you can use it, I use it, but it's got to be my voice. 00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:37.920 It's gotta be, I mean, I'm gonna tweak it, massage it, I'm gonna change everything. 00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:39.199 It's got to be me. 00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:45.199 And so, what is your advice to people about how they use it for clear communication? 00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:50.559 Because clear communication, clarity, the message, the whole thing is more valuable than it ever has been. 00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:55.679 I always like to say uh there are a lot of people talking, very few people have something to say. 00:45:55.920 --> 00:46:03.920 So I think that's a a great turtophrase because the reality is look the first thing on AI is you better learn it, right? 00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:08.159 I mean, I don't care who you are, what stage you are professionally, you have to get familiar with it. 00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:21.760 You don't have to learn how to build an LLC, you don't have, I mean, uh, an LLM, you don't have to build a model, you don't have to make your own apps and your um, you know, your own uh tools, but you can't just kind of do the the you know AI. 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:37.119 And um, because I really do believe judgment and perspective and experience are gonna continue to be critical to decision making for senior leaders, no matter how effective the AI tools are. 00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:41.199 But the second thing I would say is it can really be helpful. 00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:42.559 Um, it can be very helpful. 00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:45.119 I'm a big I hate writing the first draft of a thing. 00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:52.239 Like it's sort of my, but once I get going, then you know I'm sort of all into my communications writing zone. 00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:54.880 And so AI can be really helpful for that first draft. 00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:55.840 But to me, that's what it is. 00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:58.639 It's a first draft, and then I'm gonna go do my thing. 00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:00.880 And even then, it's garbage in, garbage out. 00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:06.159 You have to tell it, hey, I think we should build a plan that does the following 20 things, and I want to add this. 00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:08.719 Like, I don't, I don't let it build the plan. 00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:15.679 I have my own experiences and my own inputs, and then I'll say, and then it'll kind of put it all together in a document that you rarely sounds anything like me. 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:18.079 And then to your point, I'm I'm kind of all over it. 00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:22.239 Now, that's a communications person's sort of tendency. 00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:27.440 Um, and I don't care if people don't want to edit, but you do have to recognize it as your own. 00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:43.599 So if you're gonna use it to write and you're not gonna read and shred it and make sure that it's really what you intend to either write or say or create, then you're gonna live with the consequences because that you become replaceable very quickly because anybody can do that. 00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:53.679 Anybody can go type it into Chat GTP and get the same thing because you're there's no, there's no nuance, there's no experience, there's no, you know, personal recommendations. 00:47:53.840 --> 00:47:54.800 It's just a machine. 00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:58.719 And by the way, it could be a really smart machine, but it doesn't know what it doesn't know. 00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:04.960 And you know, we always go back to the um used to say the same thing about hiring a great agency, garbage in, garbage out. 00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:18.559 If you don't ramp that agency on what's going on in your business and they don't have a clue that this is a no-fly zone over here, you can't touch this, or our business can't afford to cannibalize that, then they're gonna come back with ideas that then you get frustrated because you're like, this is not okay. 00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:19.760 Well, how would they know? 00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:22.559 So, you know, AI is not terribly dissimilar. 00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:25.039 It's gonna be, it's already making an impact. 00:48:25.119 --> 00:48:26.159 It's gonna be amazing. 00:48:26.239 --> 00:48:29.360 I don't quite know where it'll all, you know, net out. 00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:45.199 Um, I have concerns, you know, I think that that uh managing something that's gonna be this smart is something that the people building it have some work to do from a responsibility perspective, particularly if you look at some of the escape experiences that have hit headlines recently. 00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:53.440 But but boy, as a professional, you know, learn it and build it into your portfolio as part of how you get things done faster and more effectively. 00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:58.639 But don't abandon your own role in that or just expect to be very replaceable. 00:48:59.199 --> 00:48:59.679 Here, here. 00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:04.159 Last thing your opportunity to deliver a message that people will remember. 00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:11.599 Um, speaking of AI, we down the line, when we're not here, AI could tell people what our story was. 00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:14.079 But that's not really the best way to do it.

00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:16.400 We have to be authentic and tell our own story. 00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:19.760 We are the authors of our own story. 00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:26.719 People have to take um confidence and strength to be able to go their own direction. 00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:37.039 So, what advice would you give somebody, given the career that you've had, the amazing career that you've had in communications, to author their best story? 00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:44.320 You know, I always say to people that you are the CEO of your own career. 00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:48.719 And um, you know, people say, I have no aspiration to be the CEO. 00:49:48.800 --> 00:50:05.519 I'm like, but you are your CEO of your career, whether that is a big one or a small one, or your own business, or a C-suite aspiration, or middle management where you can reach a lot of people and still, you know, have a light load to make sure you spend plenty of time at home. 00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:09.599 There's no wrong answer, but you are the CEO of your own career. 00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:15.840 And so if you don't know what that means, it, you know, that's okay. 00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:19.360 I didn't know what I meant what that meant or where my career was going to go. 00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:26.800 But you do have to be open to trying things that on paper initially may not be super appealing. 00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:29.199 I had jobs where they're like, we want you to move here and do this. 00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:32.079 And I was like, okay, I'll try it, but it's a short-term thing. 00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:39.840 And then it's played a role in my advancement versus some straight line up, which I didn't have, and most people don't. 00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:41.119 It's pretty rare. 00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:45.360 Um, but I think you have to be open to experimentation. 00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:46.800 You have to take ownership. 00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:48.159 You have to take ownership. 00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:52.800 You can't tell your own story if your own story is really about blaming other people for what did or didn't happen to you. 00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:55.840 Bad things happen to people professionally. 00:50:56.079 --> 00:50:59.360 Positions get eliminated, jobs go away, somebody gets promoted over you. 00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:00.320 You betcha. 00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:02.880 But bad things happen to CEOs too. 00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:09.760 You know, the market tanks, somebody launches something that's more competitive than your product, they undercut your price point, you miss on earnings. 00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:11.440 What are you going to do about it? 00:51:11.599 --> 00:51:13.519 Is really where you have to go. 00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:28.000 And when you think about it in that way, then your story becomes who you are and how you're navigating the ups and the downs because there's big wins that get you into great big jobs, and then there's things that happen, and you're like, this is

not what I had planned. 00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:32.239 And you're allowed to be super frustrated and go home and be mad and eat a pint of ice cream. 00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:35.280 Like, I'm not saying don't give yourself a break, give yourself grace. 00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:39.119 But then you go, okay, you got to come back and say, now, but I own this. 00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:42.719 It's my life, my career, my professional future, my story. 00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:44.079 What am I going to do about it? 00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:45.280 Where am I going to take it? 00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:49.440 And then how do I talk about that as you know, as it evolves? 00:51:49.599 --> 00:51:55.119 And I think once you have kind of that ownership and recognize that you can't, you can't make things happen. 00:51:55.199 --> 00:51:57.760 Um, and you can pull the ripcord and say, I'm done. 00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:01.599 My ownership as a CEO is that I've been in this position too long and I'm not getting recognized. 00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:02.320 That's okay too. 00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:05.360 I get people that kind of do the victim thing and I'm like, hey, walk away. 00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:09.679 You own that decision and you have to decide when that is right. 00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:20.400 And I think, you know, we have generations of people that are um adapting to that philosophy where for a while it was sort of like on management to take care of me. 00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:27.519 Well, it's on management to recognize you as an asset and um and make sure that they treat you accordingly if they want to keep you. 00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:31.199 But then if they don't, that's on you to say, like, what? 00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:34.639 What I will go, even if it takes a couple hits, I have to try a couple jobs. 00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:38.800 I'm gonna go find a place that's gonna be like having you at the table, it makes a big difference. 00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:40.159 And we want you here. 00:52:40.559 --> 00:52:41.199 Yeah. 00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:44.239 Uh you were a big asset to this program. 00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:47.360 Uh I had a feeling the minute I reached out. 00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:49.039 I'm so glad I had you. 00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:52.239 Thank you so much, Janice, for reconnecting and for being on this. 00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:53.440 Oh, thanks for having me. 00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:54.159 It was really great. 00:52:54.320 --> 00:52:55.760 Fun, a fun conversation. 00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:57.280 So definitely stay in touch. 00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:01.280 I can't wait to see how this all lands and congrats on all the things that you're doing. 00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:03.199 My goodness, it's uh you're a busy man. 00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:04.480 Appreciate it. 00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:12.079 One last segment I call Getting Ahead, which is focused on you and your own tracks to success. 00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:19.440 It's brought to you by Ahead, the finest in headwear and the official headwear of the Tracks to Success podcast. 00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:22.880 Available at AheadUSAShop.com. 00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:28.000 For listeners of this show, ahead is giving one of its biggest discounts ever. 00:53:28.159 --> 00:53:34.480 Visit aheadUSAShop.com now and use the code TTS30. 00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:42.639 That's TTS30 and receive not 20% off your purchase, but 30% ahead. 00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:45.920 They don't follow the trends for more than 30 years. 00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:48.079 They've been steady, though. 00:53:48.800 --> 00:53:50.639 Yes, it is time for getting ahead. 00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:52.559 I hope you enjoyed Janice's story. 00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:55.920 She's got some real energy and a great career. 00:53:56.079 --> 00:53:59.840 Microsoft, T-Mobile, the uncarrier transformation. 00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:00.800 What a great story. 00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:08.960 Countless moments when a leader, a team, or an entire organization needed to know what to say and how to say it. 00:54:09.039 --> 00:54:19.920 But one of the most important lessons that I heard from her career in our conversation is that great communication doesn't begin with having the perfect words or the perfect message. 00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:24.480 It begins with having the courage to be direct and honest. 00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:26.960 Notice I didn't say critical. 00:54:27.199 --> 00:54:37.199 Honest is about what's happening, honest about what people need to hear, and honest enough to tell a leader something they might not want to hear. 00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:43.760 That means that leaders can't wait until the pressure arrives to decide what they stand for. 00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:47.280 They need clarity before crisis. 00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:52.719 And people around them were willing to speak the truth before a difficult decision is actually made. 00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:54.880 So here's my question, here's my thought. 00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:59.599 Do the people around you feel safe enough to tell you what you need to hear? 00:54:59.840 --> 00:55:07.039 Because the strongest leader in the room isn't always the person with the fastest answer, somebody who jumps right in. 00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:17.440 It may be the person that's willing to sit back for a minute, listen, pause, and able to change direction when the truth actually requires it. 00:55:17.679 --> 00:55:22.239 So do this align with your people, but welcome honesty. 00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:24.719 That's how you communicate through pressure. 00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:27.360 That's how you lead through change. 00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:30.320 And that is how you get ahead. 00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:34.800 Do that, your tracks to success will be a whole lot easier. 00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:38.480 Until we meet next time, I'm Craig Cann. 00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:40.239 Thanks for joining me. 00:55:41.440 --> 00:55:48.800 Don't forget to subscribe for more great interviews and Craig's insights on reaching your highest personal and professional summit. 00:55:48.960 --> 00:55:53.199 Listen to Tracks to Success on all the top podcast platforms. 00:55:53.360 --> 00:56:01.679 Watch it on the Craig Cannes YouTube channel and visit CraigCanspeak.com to learn more about Craig as your next speaker.