สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
…Tim Goldstein, autistic adult, and your host for life in a neurotypical universe, where we take a look at life from the perspective up an autistic adult
…
Just as in life we never quite know where things are going to go and what we're going to run into. Same happens here in life and neurotypical universe. In this episode we're going to take a look at the chapter that I wrote for a book that I coauthored and co edited along with Doctor Santoshi Halder from the University of Calcutta, and Doctor Dave Cadel. From Frist Center of autism and innovation at Vanderbild. Together we did a book that's titled Inclusion…
Neurodiverse Autistic First Person Accounts, which is a collection of different chapters each one written by a different author, uh with all of them being autistic except Doctor Halder. I don't believe identifies that way or at least ever has directly to me. So a very very interesting book put out by Routledge Publishing as an academic book, and you can get the link down in the show notes if you wanna check out some more. But I went and took my chapter, which this was…we'll have to say I would when I agreed to do it way back in two thousand when Doctor Santoshi first suggested the idea sounded like a great idea And then I found out I had to write an eight thousand word chapter which is pretty much like writing a whole book. And I went and wrote my chapter. Now I went and ran it through Google's NotebookLM, where it goes and creates a podcast conversation.
And it turned into a really fascinating conversation. So I'm sharing my chapter out of the book through NotebookLM's podcast version of what I said. It certainly condenses it down Does a great job of giving you an impression of what the chapter's about. And if you wanna get the whole thing well, you gotta get the book So come on dive in and let's listen to the characters on Google's NotebookLM, as they discuss the chapter written by me. It's kind of funny as I listen to it as they talk about what Goldstein had to say, but I think it came out pretty darn well And I think you'll enjoy. Sit back. Have your favorite beverage. And listen to what generative AI brings us from the chapter that I wrote.
Welcome back everybody for another deep dive. Uh this time we're tackling a big one Neurodiversity, specifically looking at autism from an autistic perspective. Sounds fascinating and to help us with that we're gonna be looking at writings by Tim Goldstein. Uh he's an autistic advocate who created some thing called the neurocloud model The neurocloud Yeah Have you heard of this I have Yeah It's a it's a really interesting way to visualize, uh neurodiversity. Yeah And that's really what we're hoping to do in this deep dive right is to understand how autistic individuals experience the world and how that can help all of us you know move towards a more inclusive world Absolutely.
I think Goldstein's work is so important because it really challenges a lot of the assumptions that we have about autism. Yeah I mean I think he even pushes back on the idea that there is like a right way to think and a wrong way to think You know Like Right What's normal and what's not Exactly He really gets us away from that deficit based view of autism that you know we often see Right And he helps us to appreciate these different ways of thinking and being You know So let's talk about this neurocloud model a little bit Okay. How does that actually help us visualize this concept of neurodiversity? So you can picture as this big cloud right And that represents like all human brains Okay Within that cloud you have all these different clusters you know kinda like in a real cloud Gotcha. And so Goldstein says you know one of those clusters represents neurotypical brains okay And that's the cluster that sort of sets the dominant social norm Right Right And then you have all these other clusters.
And those represent what he calls neurodistinct brains Uh-huh. So those are the folks who perceive and process information differently And I think that's such a key point Right Because so often people see neurodiversity or being neurodistinct as like a negative thing Right But what he's saying is no it's just variation. It is It's just variation like with any other human trait Yeah You know like, take eye contact for example Uh-huh We all have eyes Right But how we use eye contact varies so much depending on our culture, you know our personal preferences even the situation that we're in Totally And even thinking about, you know within one culture like here in the United States, You know sometimes extended eye contact feels normal and natural And other times it's like the most awkward thing in the world Right Exactly It all depends on the context So even something as seemingly simple as eye contact, You know It's a spectrum It's a spectrum It's not just like you do it this way or you do it that way It's not black and white Right And I think that's what Goldstein's work really highlights right is that so many of these things that we associate with autism are actually just human traits that are expressed differently Exactly And one of the ways that he really drives this point home is by looking at the DSM five you know the manual that's used to diagnose mental health conditions Oh yeah. I'm really fascinated by the part of his work because he really digs into the DSM 5 Yeah And kind of critiques it from his lived experience as an autistic adult Right He does And he points out all these places where his experience doesn't match up with what the DSM five describe Drives Okay. Like for example one of the key criteria for diagnosing autism in the DSM five Mhmm Is persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction.
Yeah That's a big one Yeah The Goldstein argues that these aren't deficits okay. But rather challenges with interpretation and input. Yeah So it's not that he can't do it Right It's that he processes it differently Exactly He processes it differently and
Load full transcript
that's what leads to these differences in behavior. So I'm wondering what does that look like you know in his daily life? What are some examples of this He gives the example of social give and take Okay Like that back and forth you know in conversation right And he says sometimes it's challenge for him and sometimes it's not Okay It really depends on who he's interacting with and the situation Okay And he makes the point that even neurotypical individuals can have trouble with social interaction Mhmm You know some people are just naturally better at it than others That's true Like I know plenty of people who just you know aren't great at like reading social cues or you know whatever it might be Exactly.
But we don't label them as having a disorder Right Just because of Exactly And that's one of the things that Goldstein is really pushing back against Yeah Now he's saying this is a human experience right This isn't something that's unique to autism Totally So social give and take is one example but the DSM five also points to things like nonverbal communication you know Right Facial expressions tone of voice body language Yeah As being difficult for autistic individuals to interpret. Mhmm So how does Goldstein address that? He points out that he tends to take words very literally. And so he might miss the emotional subtext that neurotypicals are often picking up on. So he's really focused on like the actual words that are being said On the factual accuracy of the words Yeah Rather than like the underlying feeling or emotion Yeah And so he talks about how he's had to develop this strategy that he calls emotional speaking.
Emotional speaking Yeah Okay Where he actually intentionally adds vocal tone Okay To convey emotion because he knows that that's what neurotypicals are really cuing into So he's almost like translating his communication style Yeah It's like he's bridging that gap That's really interesting Yeah It's like a conscious effort on his part Wow So what about relationships Cause that's another thing that the DSM five kind of points to as a, you know diagnostic criteria is difficulties with relationships Right And Goldstein actually challenges this too So good He says relationship struggles are a universal human experience. Yeah He's not denying that he has had difficulties in relationships, but he's saying you know this isn't something that's unique to autistic people Right. Everyone has trouble with relationships at some point Yeah For sure. And he talks about how he finds really deep connection in a smaller number of friendships that are based on shared interests. Yeah.
Which again is something that a lot of people can relate to Absolutely. I think a lot of us as we get older, you know we realize we'd rather have a few really close friends than, you know a ton of acquaintances Exactly So it's not like an autistic thing or a neurotypical thing It's just a human thing Exactly And I think a lot of people have this misconception that autistic people are unemotional or incapable of forming these deep bonds Right. But Goldstein actually addresses that directly Okay He shares this really personal story about his relationship with his mother Uh-huh. And how his priorities shifted when she became terminally ill Wow. And it really highlights that you know autistic people experience the full range of human emotions Right.
It's just that they may express them or prioritize them differently Yeah It's so powerful And it really reminds us that you can't just make assumptions about somebody's emotional capacity based on you know a label or a diagnosis or whatever Right I'm really glad that he included that in his writings Same to So we've talked about you know how the neurocloud model and his experiences kind of reframe these social and communication aspects. Yeah But the DSM5 also lists you know restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior interests or activities as like a key characteristic of autism Mhmm And so I'm curious to hear how Goldstein challenges that as well. So this is where that idea of autistic traits being human traits expressed differently really comes into play Okay He says you know everyone engages in repetitive behaviors. Everyone seeks comfort in routines Everyone develops strong interest Sure It's the degree and the manner in which these things are expressed that differs. Okay.
So it's not that autistic people are the only ones who do these things Right It's just that they might do them differently or to a different extent Okay So let's get into some specific examples Because You know there's this common misconception that autistic people love repetition. Yeah Like they just you know wanna do the same thing over and over and over again Yeah How does Goldstein address that He uses a really great example from his own life Okay Talks about how he used to work in a lab And he actually really enjoyed a task called precise aliquoting. Aliquot Yeah It involves like measuring out exact amounts of liquid Okay Repeatedly Okay. But what he enjoyed about it wasn't the repetition itself Okay. It was the precision and the skill that it required So it was the challenge Exactly Interesting And he compares this to how gamers will often repeat the same actions in a video game You know Okay They're not doing it just for the repetition Right They're doing it for the challenge mastery The mastery.
So it's about the underlying motivation exactly not just the surface level behavior which I think is so important because, you know we often observe people's behaviors and we make assumptions about why they're doing things Yeah Without really understanding what's going on inside Right And that's what Goldstein is trying to get us to see Yeah Is that there's more to the story than meets the eye And that's where the DSM I think fall short Yeah Because it's really just focused on the behavior Right It's very focused on the observable behavior Without that context Without the internal
experience right And another example of that is this idea that autistic people are inflexible with routines mhmm Which again is a stereotype that gets thrown around a lot Yeah So how does Goldstein address that? He argues that everyone needs routine…
to some extent Okay You know he points out that the COVID nineteen pandemic really highlighted this Oh yeah Because a lot of people who had never considered themselves to be particularly routine oriented Right Really struggled with the disruptions to their daily lives Yeah I mean everybody was thrown for a loop Exactly So it showed that you know that need for routine that need for predictability. It's not an autistic thing It's a human thing It's a human thing Exactly Yeah We all need some level of structure and predictability in our lives Totally And I think that's such an important point to make Yeah So how does Goldstein address this concept of restricted interests Okay. Because that's another one that you know I think comes up a lot Yeah And he does this in a really brilliant way Okay He compares his own really deep interest in maker culture and synthetic biology Yeah. To the widespread enthusiasm for fantasy sports Okay and he says you know, it's not the intensity of the interest that's the problem Right It's how society judges and values those interests Well interesting So you know, one person's obsession is another person's passionate hobby Right It all depends on, you know whether we deem an interest to be acceptable or weird. I love that Yeah It's a really thought provoking comparison It is And it gets us to question You know why do we judge certain interests as being more valid than others Totally And then he also touches on sensory processing differences Mhmm Which are often associated with autism Right But he emphasizes that while sensory processing disorder or SPD is more common in autistic people Uh
It's actually more prevalent in the general population than just in autistic individuals So again it's not like an autistic thing versus a non autistic thing Exactly it's just that…autistic people may be more likely to experience it or experience it to a greater degree And this is where I think this neural cloud model really shines Right Because it's not creating this hard line between autistic and neurotypical. Right It's saying that you know we all share these human traits Yeah We just express them differently And all about variations Yeah And understanding that variation is what's gonna allow us to create you know a more inclusive and accommodating world Absolutely So this is in a really eye opening start to our deep dive Yeah And you know we've really just scratched the surface of Goldstein's work Yeah We have But we've already seen how you know this neural cloud model and his own personal experience is really challenge some of these fundamental assumptions about autism that are often presented in the DSM five They do So I'm curious to kind of explore this further yeah. How does Goldstein suggest we move away from this deficit based view Right. And actually create a more neurodiversity affirming society Great question We'll dive into that on our next segment So stay tuned Well I think Goldstein's work is really interesting here because he doesn't just want to…
you know, deconstruct these misconceptions Right He actually wants to offer a roadmap for how we can actually build a more inclusive society So what does that look like Where do we even begin Well he says one of the most important things is understanding the autistic approach to communication. Okay. And he really highlights the preference for precise literal language Uh-huh. Which could be really challenging because you know neurotypical communication often relies so heavily on you know emotional subtext Right and implied meanings Right It's all about like what's not being said Exactly Like what's underneath you know reading between the lines And so you can see how that would create a lot of misunderstandings For sure So I'm thinking back to what you're saying earlier about you know his emotional speech leaking strategy Right Can you elaborate on that a little bit more Like how does that actually work in practice? So he explains that you know because he knows that neurotypicals are often cuing into tone of voice and you know kind of that emotional layer Yeah He actually intentionally modulates his tone of voice to convey emotion.
Wow. Even though you know that's not necessarily how he's processing the information internally. So he's really making a conscious effort to kinda bridge that gap? He is. Yeah It's really fascinating He's amazing It's a really deliberate strategy I'm wondering do you think that's something that could be, like taught or learned?
Mhmm You know could that be a helpful tool for both autistic and neurotypical individuals? To kind of That's a great question Improve communication You know I don't know that Goldstein necessarily addresses that directly. Okay. But I do think it raises some really interesting questions about…
you know how we can be more mindful of these different communication styles and how we can be more intentional about the way that we're communicating. Yeah And it makes me think about you know even in written communication. Like how much emphasis we put on things like tone of voice and body language language Yeah You know even things like emojis and punctuation like we're trying to convey those nonverbal cues Yeah Even in a written format Exactly And you can imagine how that could be really confusing for someone who processes language…Literally Totally You know they're looking at the words and they're not necessarily picking up on all of those other layers of meaning And Goldstein actually talks about this concept of the emotional life of words Yes He does Do you remember that? I do Where he's saying that words actually carry all of these additional like unspoken emotional connotations Yeah He uses the word beach as an example
Yeah I love that example because he's saying you know the dictionary definition of beach is pretty neutral right Yeah It's just like a shore of a body of water Yeah Like that's not very exciting No. But for most people the word beach evokes all of these positive associations with like, relaxation and you know vacation and summertime and all that stuff Exactly and so he's saying you know for me, the word beach doesn't necessarily carry all of that baggage Right It's just a word that describes a place Interesting And so you can see how that would lead to misunderstandings.
You know someone says oh I'm going to the beach and you're like oh okay Yeah Like you're not getting all of that emotional subtext Right Like you're speaking different languages almost Yeah Yeah I think that's a great way to put it And it's not that one way of communicating is better or worse. No Just different It splits And I think that's the key takeaway right is understanding those differences Yeah So that we can be more mindful in the way that we interact with each other And more patient And more patient Yes. You know because sometimes it does take a little bit of extra effort to make sure that we're understanding each other And these communication differences also extend to like, information processing? Yes They do You know Goldstein talks about how neurotypicals tend to process information in a very top down conceptual way Whereas he has this more detailed first approach Exactly So he's like starting with the details and then building up to a more comprehensive understanding It's like building a house brick by brick Yeah Rather than starting with a pre fabricated structure I love that biology And he argues that this can lead to a lot of misunderstandings because, you know autistic individuals might be perceived as being slow or not getting it Right When in reality they're just taking a different route to arrive at the same destination Yeah It's not that they're not intelligent or capable oh It's just that they're processing the information in a different way And they might need a little bit more time Yeah To get there And this also makes me think about how you know we talk about autistic people having these special interests interest Right And maybe it's not so much about the interest itself, but about that depth and intensity of focus Yeah You know that ability to really absorb and analyze details that other people might just overlook Right And Goldstein even draws a comparison to AI models You know he talks about how he builds these conceptual models from detailed information. Uh-huh and this allows him to see patterns in a more holistic way.
So instead of just seeing individual data points Yeah He's like connecting the dots He's seeing the big picture You're seeing patterns that other people might not even be aware of Exactly He's seeing the forest while other people are focused on individual trees That's a great analogy. And I think it's a really powerful example of how
these different ways of thinking can actually be strengths Yeah You know we often talk about neurodiversity as a deficit Right. But goldstein's really helping us to see that it's also an asset. So we've seen how Goldstein is really reframing these core ideas around autism Right You know he's challenging this deficit focused model Yeah And he's highlighting these unique strengths and perspectives of neuro distinct individuals absolutely But I think the with now is like how do we actually translate this into concrete actions? Right Like how do we actually create a society that is more inclusive and neurodiversity affirming?
It's easy to talk about these things in theory. Yeah But how do we put them into practice Like what does that actually look like And that's what we're gonna explore in the next part of our deep dive It seems like we talk about, you know inclusivity a lot but in very abstract terms Like what does it actually look like You know in this And specifically for autistic individuals like what are some concrete changes that we could make? Yeah Goldstein really emphasizes that we need to shift from, you know trying to fit square pegs into round holes Right. To creating environments that can actually accommodate a diversity of shapes Yeah It's about recognizing that what works for one person might not work for another. Okay And designing spaces and systems that are flexible and adaptable.
It's about having options Exactly Not about you know everybody needing to conform to a single standard Right. I like that So can you give me some practical examples of what this might look like Sure So in the workplace for example Okay This could mean you know offering flexible work arrangements okay Providing clear and concise instructions. Uh-huh Creating sensory friendly spaces. Okay Really understanding that sensory sensitivities are real Right And can have a big impact on an individual's ability to focus and be productive. So instead of having like a one size fits all office environment Right you might have you know options for quiet workspaces Exactly Adjustable lighting, you know maybe even the ability to work remotely.
Yeah. All of those things can make a big difference. And then in educational settings Yeah What could that look like? So it could involve incorporating a variety of teaching methods Okay To cater to different learning styles Okay Know maybe allowing students to demonstrate their understanding in ways that go beyond traditional tests and written assignments Because really recognizing that intelligence and ability Yeah. They manifest in different ways They do.
And valuing those differences Exactly rather than trying to you know force everybody into the same mold And gold scene makes a really important point here Right He says this shift in thinking isn't just about making accommodations for autistic individuals Okay. It's about creating a better world for everyone Oh interesting. You know when we design environments that are more inclusive and accessible Yeah. We all benefit It's like the curb cut effect you know where you design something for a specific group Yeah But it ends up having all of these positive ripple effects Exactly And that's what Goldstein is really calling for Uh
He's saying neurodiversity is not just an individual trait Okay It's a societal issue. Interesting We need to look at the systemic barriers and the societal expectations that are limiting opportunities for neurodivergent individuals So it's not about you know individuals adapting Right To a neurotypical world It's about changing the world. Wow To be more inclusive That's powerful. Yeah It's a big challenge It is But I think it's one that's worth taking on Do you think Goldstein is optimistic about the future…
You know I think he definitely sees a need for change. But I also think he recognizes that we're making progress. Okay You know he sees the increasing awareness and acceptance of neurodiversity Uh-huh. As a positive sign Yeah. And I think you really believe that, you know understanding the neural cloud model Yeah Can help us to move from awareness to action.
This has been such an insightful deep dive Yeah Yes Really challenged me to think differently about, you know, autism and neurodiversity as a whole Yeah Me too So what's one key takeaway that you hope listeners will walk away with You know I think the most important thing to remember is that we all share these basic human traits Yeah We just express them in different ways Right And if we can really embrace that diversity Yeah. Imagine the possibilities you know I just love that We could create a world where everyone feels valued and respected Uh-huh. And empowered to contribute. Their unique talents and perspectives. What a great thought to end on Yeah Thank you so much for joining us on this deep dive into Tim Goldstein's work It's been a pleasure It's been a fascinating exploration of neurodiversity through an autistic lens.
Absolutely and For all of you listening out there Yeah We encourage you to you know, keep learning questioning engaging in these conversations about how we can create a more inclusive and neurodiversity affirming world It's up to all of us Thanks for listening…
We hope that you've enjoyed another episode of life in your neurotypical universe. Please if you enjoyed this share it with your friends. Go take their phone and subscribe them and it will help us all out. If you wanna know more about neurodiversity or have any questions for me you can reach me at my website, https://timgoldstein.com where I'll be more than glad to help you as best I can to navigate through the neurotypical universe
…