บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ This I Call to Mind: Remembering God's Faithfulness in Seasons of Suffering with Angela Mackey

two, and I had a tubal pregnancy that ruptured. 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:52.560 So, and you know how it is. 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:55.680 As soon as you see those two lines on that pregnancy test, right? 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:57.519 You already have plans for that baby. 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:08.000 You know, like, oh, this is where the this is where we're gonna put the nursery, and then you're like thinking about, oh, we're gonna need to know about preschools and elementary schools and all of these things. 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:12.560 We have this dream, and that just wasn't what the Lord had for us. 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:29.279 I yes, I can relate to that having four kids of just you know, you're planning the due date and the whole process, and then when it doesn't go the way you think it's going to, it's it's very devastating. 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:35.120 So I know when we've talked offline that you ended up having two ectopic pregnancies. 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:40.160 Would you walk through that season and what that was like emotionally, physically, and spiritually? 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:41.120 Yeah. 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:44.399 Well, yeah, oof. 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:46.000 Um, that's a lot. 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:54.000 It was so the first sign um on that first tubal pregnancy that something was wrong was there was, you know, blood on the toilet paper. 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:56.319 And so that's kind of a shock. 00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:04.319 And then doctors, like, yeah, everything looks like I just don't think you're as far along as you thought you are. 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:12.319 And you're like, you clearly don't know who I am because I can practically tell you the date this child was conceived, you know, like all of these things. 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:17.040 And so you're hanging on to hope, but you're experiencing a lot of pain. 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:21.439 And really, before they could even 100% diagnose I was having a tubal pregnancy. 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:22.639 Well, that was the second one. 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:24.720 For the first one, they gave me some medication. 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:34.240 I experienced extreme pain that night after the medication and went to the emergency room, but they're like, Yeah, you're probably just experiencing pain from the tubal pregnancy. 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:42.160 I went home and I had been bleeding all that night and all through the next day at home with my baby, who was um one at the time. 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:49.120 And so the Lord protected me, praise Jesus, by the time it was time for me to get to the emergency room at the second time. 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:52.959 Um, my mom and my sister had come in from out of town to help uh me out. 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:56.399 So found out that I'd lost about half my circulating volume of blood. 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:58.319 So I was physically depleted. 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:00.480 I had to have a blood transfusion. 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:02.319 Um, it was so painful. 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:09.040 And then on top of that, just the grief of losing what I thought was what God was giving me. 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:10.959 Yeah, definitely. 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:22.639 When we look at these experiences, you know, that you've been through, what would you say to someone who is just mourning the death of the dream of what they thought their life would look like? 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:27.199 Well, first thing, it is okay to grieve. 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:39.360 I think sometimes we pretend like, well, nobody died, whatever, or this dream that I've lost that I'm grieving is like first world problems compared to this problem or whatever. 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:43.040 And that might be true in some case, but it's still a grief for you. 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:47.759 And you still need to give yourself permission to grieve. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:08:00.959 And then you need to also continue to come to God in that lament and wrestling, because if you don't, he's the God of all comfort, he's the only one who can comfort you through this. 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:08.800 But then, furthermore, he's also the God who has such good plans for you, even when they don't feel good and you don't understand. 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:16.560 And so, so when you're going through those hard things and you just don't understand, you have to continue to go to him. 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:24.879 So, for someone who isn't familiar with the concept of lament, how would you define or describe that? 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:34.320 It's an honest cry to God about exactly how you feel and exactly what is going on. 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:40.000 Lord, this is not just, Lord, this is unfair, Lord, I don't understand, I hurt. 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:43.759 I mean, you hear David in the Psalms talk about his bones are weary. 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:48.399 Um, you hear there's a whole book in the Bible called Lamentations, right? 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:53.440 I mean, the whole entire book is crying out and saying, God, this is unfair. 00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:56.240 I don't see this, I don't understand this. 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:04.799 What's very interesting is I think there's only about two Psalms of Lament that do not end with turning their eyes to God. 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:17.600 But the linchpin in the whole book of Lamentations is in Lamentations 3, it's like 21 through 24, and it says, But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope. 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:22.080 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end. 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:23.600 They are new every morning. 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:25.440 Great is your faithfulness. 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:28.399 And then he goes on to complain some more. 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:34.399 But he remembers who God is in the midst of the trial and the pain. 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:48.320 Yeah, and I think sometimes one of the things we forget is, you

know, as writers, we're both writers, as someone who might write songs or poetry, sometimes that takes six months, a year. 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:55.840 Like that wasn't the praise that usually comes at the end of a psalm, except those two you mentioned. 00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:59.039 That wasn't written in an hour or a day. 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:05.519 And I think one of the keys that you just said is you have the remembrance and then you have you go back to the lament. 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:07.519 It's messy, it's jumbled. 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:09.360 It it's all over the place. 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:12.720 It's real and true to life, I think. 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:19.840 And I think sometimes we give ourselves maybe even these expectations of I can only lament for this long. 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:26.559 I we have this, I don't know, set of rules, maybe even sometimes around our grief and our sorrow. 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:28.480 Um, we should be over this by now. 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:34.799 I talk about, I talk sometimes about how we do the shoulds, we're doing the should all over ourselves. 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:38.879 But I don't think that's true of scripture. 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:46.000 And why do you think it's so important for us to bring these questions and doubts and lament to the Lord? 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:48.639 Well, first thing, he already knows we have them. 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:50.559 I mean, it's not a surprise, right? 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:55.679 Before a word's even on our tongues, he knows what we're thinking and feeling anyway. 00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:57.360 So that's the first thing. 00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:01.200 The second thing is he is the God of all comfort. 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:04.559 He is the God who understands and knows the plan. 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:08.080 He is the God who is near to the brokenhearted. 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:10.799 So he longs to comfort you. 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:12.639 He longs to be there with you. 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:19.679 And listen, sometimes even as you're wrestling it out with him and lamenting with him, he has to whisper some correction. 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:27.759 But if you're not willing to be in that wrestling embrace with him, you're not close enough to hear him tell you the things you need to hear. 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:32.799 You're not close enough to feel or experience the comfort and the peace that passes understanding. 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:37.840 You're not close enough to hear him go, hey Angela, that's really not right. 00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:41.120 But I mean, look at even the life of Job, right? 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:42.879 I haven't even touched that book yet. 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:50.000 Job is complaining about God and he's like, I just want to, I just want to come to him and state my case. 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:53.200 And you know, God's response to Job is not here's why. 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:56.240 His response to Job is, remember who

I am. 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:00.080 You don't know all of the things that are going on. 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:04.000 And Job's response to God wasn't, but I should. 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:07.679 His response to God was, I really I forgot what I am. 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:08.879 I'm gonna cover my mouth. 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:12.879 I'm sorry, you are way holier than I ever gave you credit for. 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:13.919 Yeah. 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:14.960 Yeah. 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:25.679 And I I love how you pointed that out that God didn't give him the reasons why, but he said, This is my character, this is who I am in this situation. 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:29.120 You know, and sometimes we're not ready to accept that. 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:37.600 But I love how you said we have to be close enough to hear his voice and close enough, which means that we're not stiff arming him. 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:40.879 We're trying to lean in instead of pull away. 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:54.080 I'm gonna go back to can you remember a time or an experience that you had where you really felt the comfort of God during those those losses with your two babies? 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:57.759 Yes, definitely. 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:04.240 But I'll tell you this: I don't know if I necessarily felt it while I was there, but when I look back, I saw it. 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:09.039 So let me encourage you that sometimes you're like, God wasn't there. 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:14.639 And if you don't see it while you're experiencing it, ask God to show you where He was. 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:21.759 Because I would have probably said, I didn't really, I don't know if you'd asked me that close. 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:29.519 Um but looking back, I have seen so many cases with that first tubal pregnancy while I was bleeding internally for that long. 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:31.279 I was never alone that day. 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:32.879 I was always alone with my daughter. 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:34.879 I shouldn't say always, but I'm a stay-at-home mom. 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:37.440 You know, my husband would leave, I'd be alone with her. 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.399 That day, God made sure I was never alone. 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:43.440 Before my husband left for work, a friend came over and hung out with me. 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:45.200 When she had to leave, another friend came over. 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:47.759 As she was leaving, my mom and my sister came in. 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:53.919 That whole day that I could have passed out and died and only had a toddler in the room with me. 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:55.519 God was there. 00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:57.039 What a comfort. 00:13:57.200 --> 00:13:59.600 What a comfort that he made sure somebody was there with me. 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:09.360 And then with my second pregnancy, I we were actually supposed to be on a riverboat cruise and we just happened to go ahead and get insurance on that trip. 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:10.879 My husband had time off. 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:12.720 He's a physician and he never has time off. 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.639 So he was able to be with me the whole time during that experience. 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:23.360 And when I had to rush to the emergency room because it was um clearly rupturing again, he was able to be there. 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:26.399 We caught it earlier that time, so didn't have a blood transfusion. 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:32.000 So I can look back and see the Lord's hand and the timing and the way he did all of that. 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:34.080 And that was a comfort to me. 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:39.679 And a lot of times we want to dismiss those things to chance in the moment. 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:43.200 But it echoes back to what you said about lamentations. 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:44.879 This I call to mind. 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:46.639 This is what I remember. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:48.559 And then I have hope. 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:50.960 So your husband is a physician. 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:52.879 How did he deal with that? 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:56.480 Because I can imagine he's a little bit of a fixer, maybe. 00:14:56.559 --> 00:14:57.759 He's a doctor. 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.759 Do you mind just sharing maybe a little bit of that if you're comfortable? 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:03.200 Sure, certainly. 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.639 He um he is a fixer. 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:15.120 And seeing me deal with all of that medical stuff that he couldn't fix was really, really hard on him. 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:22.960 And I will be honest, I wish I'd done a better job of talking to him about things or even hearing him. 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:26.240 When he kept telling me, Angela, you could have died, Angela, you could have died. 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.000 I went through it and I was like, I wasn't gonna die. 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:29.679 I was fine, you know? 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:40.000 And it wasn't until I started writing the book that I wrote that I realized, I mean, I'm a nurse too, I know better, that I realized I really could have died. 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:43.840 And that was a super dangerous situation both times. 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:49.279 And honestly, if I'd been born even if it happened even 10 years ago, I might not have made it. 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:52.480 So God was so faithful in that. 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:56.879 But he, yes, those two things were really, really hard on him. 00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:01.919 And at that point, after the second one, he was kind of like, I'm not ready to even think about kids. 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:04.399 And I'm like, but I want more, I want more. 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:09.600 And so he graciously allowed us to move on to IVF relatively quickly. 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:12.639 But yeah, I definitely that was a challenge for him. 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:20.080 It was a challenge in our relationship because I really didn't

understand until multiple years later how dangerous it really was. 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:21.759 Yeah, for sure. 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:31.600 I think a lot of times if we're married, we realize at some point, but usually not in the moment, that our spouses are dealing with the grief differently than we are. 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:39.120 Sometimes even in a completely different time, your timing and his necessarily don't match, which is probably God's grace, right? 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:42.080 It's probably good if we're not both falling apart at the same time. 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:43.519 Thank you for sharing that. 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:50.639 So then walk us through what those next years of trying to conceive, because we know you mentioned the beginning you have three children. 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:55.840 So I'm imagining that it was a journey to have two more kids. 00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:57.120 It was a journey. 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:03.519 And let me be honest, most people who deal with infertility, it's not I do it at breakneck speed. 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:04.960 Let's just put it that way. 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:16.480 Most people don't lose their fertility in essentially six months because most of the time you, you know, it takes years and years and years to find out what might be wrong or to figure out. 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:18.400 And a lot of times it's unexplained. 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:20.640 For us, we knew exactly what the problem was. 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:22.400 I had a plumbing problem. 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:24.400 Both of my tubes had ruptured. 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:30.640 I ruptured super early in pregnancy, so it wasn't really safe for me to try to naturally again. 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:33.359 So we moved on to IVF relatively quickly. 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:45.119 And from the time of my first ruptured ectopic pregnancy to the time of having my first IVF baby was like a year and a half. 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:47.920 So it was boom. 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:54.079 So uh talk about whiplash, talk about like almost not having a chance to process everything. 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:56.559 It probably would have been wise for me to slow down. 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:03.200 But at that point in my desires to make my dreams come true, I didn't um slow down and process. 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:05.599 So I kind of had to slow down and process later. 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:06.480 Yeah. 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:08.960 Um, but yeah, so that was interesting. 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:11.599 And then we had babies in the freezer. 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:22.559 So um when we prayed about IVF, we knew we were going to, we believed that life is super important in all of its iterations, even in its smallest. 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:31.599 And so every embryo that survived to the point where they could be transferred, we were going to give the opportunity at life outside the dish, as I call it. 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:38.559 Um, and so we almost had a heart attack when we first heard that we had about 21 embryos. 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:40.720 Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:50.000 Um, and then um, but then there was so much loss in between the first and um and through the point where they could be transferred. 00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:54.559 So at the point where they could be transferred, I believe we had, I think it's nine, is that right? 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:58.640 Yeah, I think we froze seven, if I have that right. 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:03.519 For years we had babies in a freezer a couple hours away from our house. 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:05.440 And that definitely affected my life. 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:15.519 And I didn't even realize it that much until at looking back when we were able to take the final three embryos home in my womb, even though none of I did not end up pregnant. 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:20.480 Um, that was a relief because I I'd done what I could do for all my babies. 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:21.920 They were home with me. 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.359 So we had um we transferred two on our first cycle. 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:33.759 They originally it was both of them implanted, so I was gonna have twins, and then one twin stopped developing, so I ended up with one, and that's more loss. 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:41.119 Um then we transferred two and I didn't get pregnant, then we transferred two more, and only one implanted and I got my son. 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.920 And then, like I said, the final three did not uh implant. 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:51.759 So loss after loss after loss, grief after grief after grief, joy in between. 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:56.240 Um not at all the road I imagined. 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:57.200 Yeah. 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:05.440 So do you mind talking maybe a little bit about what it was like to finally kind of slow down and process some of that loss? 00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:27.279 Because I I'm thinking about the special needs mom who's listening, who in the middle of the chaos of being in and out of the hospital and taking care of your kid or running from behavior issue to behavior issue to, you know, being afraid that your child's gonna hurt you because they have explosive behaviors, especially when they're going through puberty and they might have a diagnosis of like autism. 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:40.000 You don't really have the luxury, I guess I would say, to slow down to really process how different your life looks and and the loss. 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:45.599 But at the same time, at some point you want to keep thriving, right? 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:49.440 You don't want to just live in survival mode, you know, all the time. 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.640 And I think that's really hard for us to figure out how to do that. 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.640 Do you have any thoughts about that? 00:20:55.279 --> 00:21:08.240 Yeah, I think there's lots of different opportunities, but you have to carve out some

time for you to be able to do that. 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:17.759 Whether that means I have a time I wake up early every morning, I know that for most of people with special needs kids, there's very little. 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:21.599 You try your best to have a routine, but it's always interrupted. 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:23.119 So find your time. 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:31.440 As soon as it's quiet in the house for whatever reason, maybe somebody's taking a nap, find that time and use it to go to the Lord. 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:33.359 Use it to process. 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:37.839 Um, when you have an opportunity for some respite care, take it. 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:47.279 It is not weakness, it is not running from what God has given you to give yourself an opportunity to rest and breathe in Him. 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:59.759 I encourage people to find as much as you can a godly, wise counselor, licensed, preferably, to help you walk through these things because listen, especially. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.960 Needs caregiving is a gift. 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:06.160 It is also a big, big weight. 00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:08.240 And I want you to know you are seen. 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:10.960 You are seen by God, but you are also seen by others. 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:16.720 And I know sometimes you feel like, yeah, I'm seen by others because they see my kid acting out and they're judging me. 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:21.359 But let me tell you, you are seen by other people who see you and are and are praying for you. 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:24.799 You are seen by others who know that you're there. 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.279 So give yourself permission. 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:29.519 Take the break when you can. 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:37.599 And then just daily, listen, I know most of the time your prayers are going to be, Lord, help me process this, Lord, help me, help me deal with this, help me whatever. 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:39.200 And it's going to be a quick one. 00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:45.200 But never, never stop calling out to him with those prayers because those are also valuable. 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:53.599 It that does not mean I'm not as good of a Christian because most of my prayers are popcorn prayers instead of I can sit down for 30 minutes and pray. 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:54.559 Yeah. 00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:56.079 Yeah, absolutely. 00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:57.680 That's so, so good. 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:02.799 You know, you talked a lot about praying and a little bit about scripture. 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:06.960 Was there a particular scripture that became an anchor for you during your journey? 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:12.160 And how did God use that to encourage you along the way? 00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:15.200 So listen, I'm a huge Bible nerd. 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.000 I have my master's in biblical and theological studies. 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:26.880 So God used a lot of different scriptures throughout, but one of the

ones that really kept coming back was Daniel 3. 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.000 And that's Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego's story, right? 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:32.160 They're walking through the fiery furnace. 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:39.039 And they're standing there in front of King Nebuchadnezzar, and the king's like, listen, you need to bow down or we're throwing you in. 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:42.720 And they say, We don't even have to answer you, oh king. 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:48.160 Our God is able to save us from the fiery furnace. 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:54.720 But even if he doesn't, and that's the key, but even if he doesn't, we will not bow down to anyone or anything else. 00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:59.759 And because they made that claim, Jesus was with them in the fire. 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:14.640 And so what I had to tell myself through those really difficult times, what I'm encouraging your listeners to do is say, God, I don't want to bow down to the idol of having healthy kids who don't have disabilities. 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:26.720 I don't want to bow down to the idol of my life would be different or easier or whatever, to stiff arming God or to holding so tight to my dreams that I can't see you working here. 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:50.720 And so help me to bow down to you here, no matter what that looks like, whether I have another child or not, whether um for you all, whether whether my autistic kiddo who goes through puberty is not violent or not, whatever it is, whatever those dreams or hopes are, I'm laying them on the altar, Lord, for you because I want to worship you and not what I want. 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:51.759 Yeah. 00:24:52.160 --> 00:25:03.440 And I think that's one of the things that is so important is I think a lot of times we are bound down to the idol of comfort, and that peace is the absence of suffering. 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:06.880 And that's absolutely not the case, right? 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:18.160 There's there's peace in the middle and and peace in the chaos and peace in the fire, that they were convinced that this is what God had for them going into the fire. 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.720 And even if God didn't rescue them, that God was still faithful. 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:25.119 And I think that's really tough. 00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:31.359 And we can believe that in good times, and then when the fire comes, it can be hard to cling to that truth again. 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:32.799 But it's so important. 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.240 So I know, and we're kind of talking about this. 00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:42.640 Like when we go through hard things and we go through suffering, the battle is a lot of times in our head, right? 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.920 It's what we're believing, and is that belief only in our head? 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:49.440 Is it actually something we believe in our heart? 00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:54.400 It's causing us to trust that's affecting our daily steps and behavior. 00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.359 Why do you think that our thought life is so important? 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:05.039 And how can we stop those spiraling thoughts that can sometimes seem very impossible to control in the moment? 00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:07.039 Because I think we've all dealt with that. 00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:08.160 Yes, yes. 00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:10.559 Well, first thing, God cares about our thinking. 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:12.799 I mean, that's why there's so many scripture, right? 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:21.119 Um, in Second Corinthians, he tells us that we have to demolish these ideas that stand up against God and that we have to take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:26.559 In Philippians 4, he talks about the whatever's whatever is pure and holy and true, all of those things. 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:27.599 Think about such things. 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:35.119 And here's the thing our thinking translates into what we do because as we think, so we do. 00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:43.279 And I know we laugh about that sometimes, but it is so, so true because we even see it in athletes, right? 00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.960 Athletes do better when they think about how they can better shoot the ball. 00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:52.960 I mean, they have to do the practice and do all that stuff, but the more you think about the right way, your body's gonna do it better. 00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:54.640 And so that's science. 00:26:54.880 --> 00:27:01.039 So there's scientific reason why our thinking matters, there's biblical reason why our thinking matters. 00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:09.599 And then we see too, what was it, Chuck Swindle who was like, um, you know, I'm convinced that 99% of life is our attitude, right? 00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:12.960 And our attitude comes from the things that we're thinking and focusing on. 00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:18.160 And it is so, so valuable to think about what we're thinking. 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:27.759 And so the ways we can help spiraling thoughts, there's there's several different ways, but one of the best ways is to get a pattern interrupt. 00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.160 So, like in classrooms, right? 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:39.519 When kids are talking and it's so, so loud, you know, you've got these teachers who go class, class, and then they're taught to go what, what, and then they start settling down or whatever it is. 00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:43.119 So you can get a pattern interrupt for your own brain. 00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:47.680 Because our our thought spirals start so fast, it's sometimes hard to realize. 00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:53.359 And then all of a sudden, when we catch that, oh, we're spiraling, it's hard to know how do I stop that pattern? 00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:56.319 So start asking questions of your own thoughts. 00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:02.559 And I love that Philippians 4 8, which is where all of those, the whatever is whatever is pure, lovely.

00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:03.440 Is this pure? 00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:04.559 Is this lovely? 00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:05.680 Is this true? 00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:06.880 Is this honorable? 00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:08.480 Is it of praiseworthy? 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:13.359 And and so asking yourself those questions can suddenly go, wait, it's not. 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.640 Is this especially that question of is it true? 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.400 So, yeah, so those are the things that can kind of help. 00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:22.480 Yeah, that's really, really good. 00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:24.640 So I'm a former elementary school teacher. 00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:28.640 So, you know, you have the clapping thing or you have the the response. 00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:36.640 And it is true that you have to have those pattern interruptions, I think that's what you called it, to stop those spiraling thucks. 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:40.240 I had this happen to me just a few weeks ago. 00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:52.799 My son got married, and then all of a sudden, you're a couple days after, when you're kind of coming down the high of just the beauty of all of that, I just had all these fears, completely irrational fear. 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:57.920 And I would say that personally, I'm not usually giving over to a lot of fear. 00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:00.640 I just am not a not a super fearful person. 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.200 That's not a part of my personality. 00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:07.680 But I really had to go, Lord, where is this coming from? 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.640 I need you to stop this because this is not truth. 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:12.640 And I had to go back to the truth. 00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:14.799 What's the truth about this? 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:19.359 What's the truth about my relationship with him and my new daughter in love? 00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:22.079 What is the relationship with all of these things? 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:26.559 And I really had to do that interrupt because those fears were spiraling fast. 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.240 And it was late at night too. 00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:29.759 So that doesn't help. 00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:39.680 Listen, our thoughts late at night, that's probably one of the worst times because we're tired and there's not a whole lot else going on, and our thoughts just start going, whoa. 00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:42.720 When you start feeling like that, oh, I'm getting anxious. 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:44.480 Like, okay, so why am I getting anxious? 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:46.079 Oh, that's where my thought has gone. 00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:48.400 Okay, so why is my thought gone here? 00:29:48.640 --> 00:30:00.720 And then just knowing the character of God, knowing what he has done, not only in scriptural past, but in your own past, can help you tell yourself, no, God's faithful. 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:01.599 That's not a problem. 00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:02.960 No, God is able. 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:07.920 No, even if he doesn't, just like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendigo, he's gonna walk me through this. 00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:12.240 I might not like it, it might be uncomfortable, but I can trust him in it. 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:13.119 Yeah. 00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:20.559 I think that harkens back to what we talked about earlier of just the remember, the remember, the remember. 00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:28.720 This I call to mind, this I called a mind, which might end up being the title of this podcast because I think it's just been a theme throughout. 00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:31.440 So let's switch gears just a little bit. 00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.480 Looking back now, you have three children who are grown. 00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:47.440 How has your understanding of God's faithfulness changed and developed through the years of way back when you've had all these losses walking through the IBF journey and now having three adult children? 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:49.920 You have a lot of hindsight, I would say. 00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:51.759 I do, I do. 00:30:52.240 --> 00:31:02.799 I look back and I realize that there are opportunities for me to stay concerned or worried or in grief every step of the way, right? 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:18.880 I mean, I think we we kind of have a mark that we'll put out there if only, if only God had given me the kids that he wanted, if only I could be happy now, if only my kiddos didn't have this disability, I could be happy now, whatever it is. 00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:19.359 Yeah. 00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:24.000 But here's the thing even if he gave you that, you'd have something else. 00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:30.240 You know, when you've had your tubal pregnancies, as soon as you see the double line, you're like, oh my gosh, are they gonna survive? 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:34.559 Okay, once you make it past the place where, okay, they're not in my tubes, okay, that's good. 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:37.839 Now are they gonna have any issues throughout the whole pregnancy, right? 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:39.519 Okay, now now they're born there. 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:41.200 Okay, now are they developing correctly? 00:31:41.359 --> 00:32:02.799 Now are they, you know, and we can spend all of our energy so worried about the what ifs or so upset that God didn't do something different in our lives that we miss out on the joy that he has for us today, that we miss out on opportunities to see him walking with us through the fire. 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:05.200 And that has a lot to do with what's going on in our brain. 00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:10.880 Are we focused on the thing we wanted from God, or are we focused on who God is? 00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:26.799 He is worthy, he is God, he is beautiful, and my whole life, no matter if it ever looks the way I want it to or not, is worth something because he created me and because he has a plan and a purpose, even if I never understand it. 00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:27.759 Yeah. 00:32:28.319

--> 00:32:33.119 And I just want to highlight because I think we can so easily gloss over that. 00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:39.680 It do we want more of what we want, we want God to give us, or do we want more of him? 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:45.920 And I mean, the truth is that he wants more of us, he wants all of us. 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.680 I listened to Shane and Shane, the worship initiative. 00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:54.240 They have a daily devotional that is music, and I love music and singing. 00:32:54.400 --> 00:33:00.880 And today's song was Reckless Love and and just how God pursues us. 00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:15.599 And at the very end, the one Shane gave the analogy of when I was pursuing my wife and I was getting ready to propose to her, and I knew that she was going to be unfaithful to me in our marriage over and over and over again. 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:20.000 And I still decided to propose to her and marry her. 00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:23.599 He said, Everyone would tell me that's ridiculous. 00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:24.880 Like, why would you do that? 00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:26.160 You're you're mad. 00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:29.680 You're just setting yourself up for heartache and failure. 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.279 But yeah, as the bride of Christ, that's what Jesus did for us. 00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:57.759 He came into the world pursuing us, knowing we were gonna reject him, created us knowing we were gonna reject him, then came into the world to die, to offer us the redemption of salvation, and knowing that the children of Israel, like you mentioned earlier, we're constantly turning to idols and turning to all these things that are never gonna satisfy us except him and and fully him. 00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:02.880 So I don't know if you have any comments on that, but yeah, if you don't, that's okay. 00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:08.480 Yes, God's is so worth all of our lives. 00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:14.480 I mean, that's why Romans 12 2 tells us, in view of God's mercy, let's live as living sacrifices, right? 00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:18.159 I don't have the exact quote, sorry, but it's it's in Romans 12, it's one and two. 00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:18.639 Yeah. 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:24.000 So be a living sacrifice because he is worth it. 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:26.079 His love for us is worth it. 00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:30.719 He is beautiful, he is good, he loves you so much, he has a plan and a purpose. 00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:36.719 And so when we can really fully live like we believe that, that changes a lot of things. 00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:39.599 It still gives room for grief, it still has room for lament. 00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:47.280 There's not that I'm not saying don't do those things because there's still those broken things in this world, but we can say, I trust you in the midst of this. 00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:50.559 And that's where that peace that passes understanding comes. 00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:52.800 Yeah, absolutely. 00:34:54.400

--> 00:35:02.719 So not everyone who's listening has experienced the journey that you have of infertility and miscarriage and loss. 00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:10.880 But I know everyone who's listening has experienced the disappointment, unanswered prayers, um, prayers not being answered the way that we thought they would be. 00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:15.840 So, what do you hope every listener would take away from your story that you're sharing today? 00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:26.320 Well, first, that God is worth our whole life, that he is so good, and that he loves you. 00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:33.679 And even though he's that big and amazing and good, he sees each and every one of you. 00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:43.840 And he loves you, and he has good plans for you and purposes in your life that you are living out even in the midst of the grief. 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:50.559 And so keep seeking him, keep looking for his light because it is there. 00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:57.360 He is near to the brokenhearted, he loves you, he sees you, and he knows you. 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:00.159 That's so good. 00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:08.239 Will you tell the listeners the story of your book because they might be going through this themselves or have a friend or family member? 00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.440 And then also where they can find you online. 00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:14.239 And I'll have all the links to this in the show notes. 00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:14.960 Yeah. 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:21.760 Well, the title of my book is Difficult to Conceive: A Godly Perspective for the Road Ahead. 00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:29.519 And it is the book I kind of wish I had when I was dealing with my infertility and pregnancy loss situation. 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:34.880 So it tells bits of my story, but really it's all about what God was teaching me in those times. 00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:39.119 So we're gonna talk about all the women who dealt with infertility in the Bible. 00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.039 We're gonna talk about asking God why. 00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:46.800 We're gonna talk about the battle in our minds that we were discussing earlier and so many other things. 00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.360 So that's what that book is about and for. 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:53.599 You can find it on Amazon or anywhere good books are sold. 00:36:54.079 --> 00:37:04.880 And then you can find me at angelamackie.com and it's just spelled the normal way A-N-G-E-L-A-MACI-M-A-C-K-E-Y dot com. 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:15.119 And if you sign up for my newsletter, I have a free 10-minute filter to help you stop spiraling thoughts based on Philippians 4.8. 00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.840 So I'd love to get that in your hands as well. 00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:19.360 That's great. 00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:21.840 Thank you, Angela, for being a guest today. 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:26.559 I know this is really going to encourage the women and families who are listening. 00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:27.599 So thank you. 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:29.519 Thank you for having me. 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:37.519 If you have enjoyed this podcast, would you do Carrie a favor and hit the subscribe button to where you listen to podcasts? 00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:39.599 Also, leave a review. 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:43.360 This helps the podcast to become more visible to others. 00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:54.159 If you would like to share your story on the podcast, visit Carrie's website, CarrieMHolt.com backslash podcast, and fill out the form. 00:37:54.400 --> 00:38:02.559 You can find Carrie online on Facebook and Instagram, and on her Substack page at CM Holt. 00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:07.440 Thank you for joining us today on this unexpected life podcast. 00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:12.239 Real stories, real hope in this unexpected journey.