บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ A Prenatal Diagnosis and Spina Bifida: When Motherhood Doesn’t Go as Planned with Mandy Rawls

00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:56.720 And a lot of moms, their stories are similar. 00:04:57.279 --> 00:05:01.680 Um, but take us back to when you received that diagnosis. 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:03.360 It was prenatal, correct? 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:06.160 And just what did that mean in that moment? 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:09.279 What did the diagnosis mean to you and your family? 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:19.839 Well, I think part of what made our diagnosis so difficult was I had miscarried in the pregnancy prior to Madison. 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:24.000 And so that was devastating in and of itself. 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:38.079 And we made it to the anatomy scan for what would we would find out would be Madison, and there was just already so much anxiety about pregnancy at that point because we had lost a baby. 00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:46.879 And I just knew in my ultrasound to find out her gender that something wasn't quite right because the tech was just taking forever. 00:05:47.040 --> 00:06:02.560 And she seemed to be taking repeated measurements of the baby's head and looking at the spine, and I was so excited to be in that moment, and our baby had a heartbeat, but I just I knew something was not quite right. 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:14.720 And so my OB at that time was a very jovial person and just always came through the door with joy on her face and excitement in her voice. 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:21.120 And when she opened the door, I I knew because that is not how she responded when she came in. 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:26.560 And so she used the words neural tube defect, which I did know what that was. 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:37.839 Um, but I just could not believe what we were hearing because here I was just trying to carry my baby to term and not have any complications and and the baby just be okay. 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:51.600 And so for the doctor to say things were not okay, but at the same time, she wasn't 100% sure it was a neural tube defect because the baby was in a wrong position, and that's why they were taking so many scans. 00:06:51.839 --> 00:07:02.959 So then that led to um seeing a high-risk specialist here in town to try and get even better, you know, angles, measurements, and that one was even worse than the first one. 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:06.800 And we still didn't have a confirmed diagnosis of spina bifida. 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:12.720 They actually thought it possibly was trisomy 13 or 18, but no conclusive evidence. 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:18.800 And so we got sent to a second high-risk specialist that did confirm spina bifida. 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:28.800 And that was that was probably a month's time span of just pure agony, of not truly knowing what was going on, but knowing something was not quite right. 00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:31.120 So it was devastating for us. 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:38.959 Yeah, I can't imagine because mine was like boom boom in the same day, and then to wait a whole month for that. 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:40.959 I mean, could you take us back to that? 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.639 Like, what did you do through all that uncertainty? 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:56.160 Well, I after the appointment where they thought it was potentially trisomy 13 or 18, I hyperventilated on the way home driving my car. 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:00.639 And uh by the time I got home, it was full-blown panic attack. 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:06.000 And I had never experienced one of those in my life, so I didn't even know what my body was doing. 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:09.360 And my husband was like, You are having a panic attack. 00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:16.240 And so he had to sit with me in those, those devastating moments and just let me have it and try and calm me down. 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:28.399 And I had a lot of similar moments after that in that time of just feeling just gut punched because this wasn't supposed to happen, according to me. 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.680 I was supposed to have a typical healthy pregnancy. 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:40.240 I'd already lost a baby, and now I'm losing what I thought was going to be a typical pregnancy and you know, development of my child. 00:08:40.320 --> 00:09:02.879 And so I can even look back on pictures, so many pictures of my time pregnant with Madison, where my eyes were were uh puffy and red because I had been crying and I just kind of lived in that state of grief, just overwhelming grief, especially in those first few weeks where we were waiting to get an official diagnosis. 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:12.559 And the physician who did confirm spine bifida um was really telling us, like, you know, I can't really tell you anything about your baby's quality of life. 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:17.519 I don't know what her life will be like, but she's probably not gonna do this, she's probably not gonna do that. 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:24.960 And I just wish I could go back to that physician and be like, hey, look, you don't tell pregnant moms things like that. 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:26.720 Those are not the words you use. 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:34.960 But because of he was painting such a bleak picture, I just I could not find any joy in those days about being pregnant. 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.200 I there was just no joy for me to find. 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:47.919 I'm a little ashamed at that because I do trust the Lord and in all of his plans and purposes for my life, but it was it was just devastating, truly. 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:48.879 Yeah. 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:51.759 Thank you for just having the courage to say that. 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:56.960 And you know, I just and I want to encourage you, our faith in Jesus doesn't mean we always have joy. 00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.519 And I think I had a similar experience. 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:03.679 At one point in my pregnancy, I thought it was miscarrying. 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:09.600 And you know, I was up in the middle of the night, I hadn't felt the baby move in just

hours a full day. 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:14.159 And you know, I'm Googling like 24 weeks, like when do you bury the baby? 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:27.279 Like, just all of these things, and it does take away so much of the joy that you know, you no longer have a due date, you have a surgery date, you know, like just all of those things that just pull the rug out from under you. 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:38.720 So, one of the things that you shared with me is how there were some ways that you can look back and see that God had prepared you beforehand. 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:50.399 And my jaw hit the floor because I have a I have similar stories too of I can see little moments of God preparing us, even the day of the diagnosis. 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:55.279 I looked at my husband and said, I would tell you to go to work, but I think you need to be here. 00:10:55.600 --> 00:11:04.399 And I even said to him, I don't think anything's wrong, but I just feel like you need to be here because I had an ultrasound and then we were waiting to see the doctor and similar thing. 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:09.840 It was taking so much time, I think, because they were trying to read the scans and figure out how to tell us. 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:16.399 So, what were some of those ways that God prepared you and how has that framed your view of him? 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:33.039 Well, when I was in high school, through some experiences and connections with some extended family, had become really, I guess, intrigued by birth defects and research surrounding birth defects. 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:45.600 I had wound up being kind of close to a little girl who was born with fetal alcohol syndrome and really was just kind of becoming passionate about learning about it and what about birth defects can be prevented? 00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:47.919 Are there things that we can or can't do? 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:57.759 And so, my senior year of high school, I was in a class called service learning, and we had to pick a community agency to go serve at two to three times a week. 00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:04.159 We would get credit for it, but then we were giving of our time and we were going to create projects about what we learned. 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:16.639 And so, because I was getting so passionate about this, you know, quest to understand more about birth defects, I asked to be placed at the March of Dimes, which I'll be honest, I don't know if the March of Dimes still exists. 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.360 I feel like I don't hear anything about them anymore. 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:23.039 But we had a very active chapter in Chattanooga where I grew up. 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:46.879 So I very easily connected with them and got connected to work in their parent education department, where I would pull all of these resources about specific birth defects and collate them in a folder, kind of package it up all nice and neat so that if a parent came and needed more information, had just

gotten a diagnosis, then we could hand them these packets. 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:52.960 And so when I sat down to prepare my first round of packets, it was about spina bifida. 00:12:53.120 --> 00:13:07.840 And so I just had at my fingertips all of this research, um, all of these documents, all of this medical information about what a neural tube defect is, what kinds there are, what do we typically see in terms of the symptoms for a child. 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:12.000 And so I was gaining all of the head knowledge about spina bifida. 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:24.320 And I had no clue, no clue that I guess roughly about 10, 12 years from that date is when I would be getting a spina bifida diagnosis for my daughter. 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:45.519 And so, in that moment, truly, when the doctor opened the door and she came in with that long look on her face and said, neural tube defect, I just like took an instant jump back in time to sitting at that desk at the March of Dimes where I was looking at all this research and I was like, I know what this is. 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:55.279 And so God was gracious in that time to kind of soften the blow because I didn't have to do the research. 00:13:55.440 --> 00:14:03.200 I didn't have to go to the internet, which is a very scary place when you're trying to be a keyboard doctor. 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:06.639 And I didn't have to do any of that because I knew exactly what it was. 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:08.159 My husband did not. 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:25.360 And so there were things that he kind of had to gain some understanding about, but I can just look back on that and see that that was just a small way that God had prepared my heart by preparing my mind to understand what was happening in my body with my baby. 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:32.639 And so I think it just revealed so much of his character about how he has plans for us. 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:35.759 Um, and he is working in ways that we cannot see. 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:53.919 And again, I I never would have guessed that as a 17-year-old in high school, that he would use something as small and seemingly insignificant as stuff and packets to be with me and minister to me as an adult, getting that diagnosis for my child. 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:55.759 Yeah, absolutely. 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:57.200 Absolutely. 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:03.039 Um, I love it made me chuckle when you said the keyboard doctor, because we we all do that, don't we? 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:12.960 Oh, I in that time, I will I will tell you, in that time where we were so back and forth and we weren't sure could it be, it might not, I I did do that. 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.399 And I'll I learned very quickly that was an unhealthy habit. 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:23.200 And so I have even shared with moms who have gotten recent diagnoses to please, please stay away from the internet. 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:26.320 And when you have your questions, ask your physician. 00:15:26.399 -->

00:15:31.679 Don't even ask a mom who has a child with spina bifida because it's probably not gonna be the same. 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:42.960 I know a lot of those tears that I had in those early days came from me trying to investigate and learn some more because there was just so much uncertainty from her doctors that we had at the time. 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:45.759 So yeah, that's just that's not a healthy practice. 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:47.440 Yeah, absolutely. 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:48.799 Can be hard. 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:51.440 So they set you up for the birth of this baby. 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:56.000 But the most common form of spina bifida is the one that is the open hole in the back. 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:57.840 There's various forms. 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:04.639 So there's damage to the spine, there's damage to the nerves, you have to have surgery close to birth to close that open hole. 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:11.840 And a lot of times kids need a shunt unless you have the prenatal surgery, which is becoming more and more common. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.279 Um, I think our kids were a little too early for that. 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:17.440 I know it was just in the research stages. 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:21.519 When I was pregnant with Toby, he's gonna be 20 in December. 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:26.720 But I guess walk us through those first few years of her life. 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:28.480 What did that look like for you? 00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:35.919 So she had her spinal closure surgery the very next morning after she was born. 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:46.480 And up to that point, we had been watching to see prenatally if there was any dilation in the ventricles that might indicate she would need a shunt. 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.840 And there had been concern, and then the concern dwindled. 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:51.919 So I thought, my baby is good. 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:54.639 Like my baby does not need a shunt. 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:57.120 And so we did the closure surgery. 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:00.080 We were in the hospital for I think it was eight days. 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:16.960 She was in the NICU for eight days, came home, and on 4th of July weekend, of course, on holiday weekend when none of the surgeons were working, she had a medical emergency because of the spinal fluid that was compressing her ventricles. 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:27.200 And we wound up going into the ER to get admitted over the weekend, just waiting for the surgeons to come on that Monday after the holiday. 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:35.839 And sure enough, her little ventricles were so dilated and they believed they could see some scarring on the back of the eyes because of it. 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:42.799 And I just felt so awful because I can look back on pictures of her in those first four weeks. 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:49.599 And I thought she just had that little shrivelly newborn look about her because that's how newborns are supposed

to look. 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:58.240 And having never had a baby, didn't have any frame of reference, but her little eyes were so sunken and she had really dark circles. 00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:06.079 And her being lethargic, I also thought was sleepy baby, just fed the baby, didn't know what to expect. 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:13.599 And so I carried a lot of mom guilt right after that surgery because what did I miss where I could have gotten her there sooner? 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:15.920 But I just truly had no frame of reference. 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:24.480 And so when she was four weeks old, she had the brain surgery to get the VP shunt, and that was that was pretty brutal. 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:28.880 They gave her nothing but Tylenol with codeine to recover. 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:38.079 And so she just screamed almost like somebody was pressing a button every two to three minutes all night long while we were admitted in the hospital. 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:42.319 And she looked possessed, like her eyes were black. 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:46.319 Um, I think she was just in so much pain, and that is all they would give her. 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:51.119 And so that was a really rude awakening into parenthood. 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:54.640 But then she became a whole new baby after that. 00:18:54.799 --> 00:19:00.160 And that's where we really saw the power of getting that fluid off of her brain. 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:02.640 And she started to fill out. 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:06.160 She seemed more alert and kind of tracking with us. 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:09.279 And so I'm so thankful that we were able to remedy that. 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:13.519 But I was just so hopeful that that was not going to be her reality. 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:20.240 And so all of the research tells you all the things that you could typically expect with Milo Meningia seal. 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:22.319 But I was like, nope, not my baby. 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:23.359 She's doing good. 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:25.519 We're not seeing those signs. 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:28.640 And then slowly but surely they started to pile up. 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:40.480 And her biggest issues that we had once we got over that hurdle with the shunt was just the bladder dysfunction, just terrible bladder dysfunction and horrible reflux into the kidneys. 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:47.839 And so pretty early on, we identified that she had kidney disease and there was scarring of both of the kidneys. 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:55.359 And so her first surgery post-birth was when she was two to get a vesicostomy. 00:19:55.599 --> 00:20:00.960 And that was a nightmare just to allow urine to freely drain from her body. 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:07.920 And then when that failed, it led to a bladder augment when she was six with getting a chake tube. 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:10.480 And then that ultimately failed. 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:14.079 And so when she was 13, she got ostomies. 00:20:14.160 -->

00:20:24.240 And so I know I'm like fast forwarding, but just to just to paint the picture of, I was so hopeful that we could sidestep some of those symptoms. 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:33.599 And it almost seemed to be like the dominoes were falling right in the path of every single complication that we could have with spinobifidus, she seemed to be having it. 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:38.240 And that was nothing to mention of the mobility issues we were also noticing. 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:40.160 But I wasn't as concerned. 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.000 Like I just needed her to be healthy. 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:46.160 And so the walking will work on that, but is she healthy? 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:49.519 And at one point she was diagnosed as failure to thrive. 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:54.640 And that was just so hard to see her just really not, she wasn't thriving. 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:56.400 I mean, that's just simply put, you know. 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:03.119 And so that was that was hard when she was in the two to three-year-old range and and diagnosed as that. 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:12.720 So those were those were hard years trying to figure it all out and then find the solutions for all of these medical complications that were piling up. 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:19.440 And I I know you know, I mean, you've you had similar plus some, so you know exactly what I'm talking about. 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:20.400 Yeah. 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:33.759 I want to go back to the one thing you mentioned about looking back at pictures and feeling that mom guilt because I think a lot of moms listening can relate to that guilty feeling of like, am I missing something? 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:48.319 And I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to keep our kids alive, to care for them, which it is, you know, obviously our role as parents of kids with disabilities and special needs. 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:56.720 But can you look back and say, Oh, there was this one thing that helped me release the guild, or was it just time? 00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:07.519 Because I'm just thinking about that mom who's just really, really Stuck in I miss that and it's my fault that we ended up here and my child's had lasting effects from this. 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:16.400 How do we let that go and let the Lord be sufficient for those moments that we can't I mean we're human, we can't catch everything. 00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:17.440 Sure. 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:37.839 Gosh, that's hard because I think, I mean, God just wired moms differently, anyways, for us to be so deeply feeling and to be so concerned with care and trying to be the best that we can be for these these babies that we love so much. 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:40.400 I I don't know that I have a great answer. 00:22:40.559 --> 00:23:02.559 I do think time, and I shared with someone once that just trying to always take whatever it was, whatever the problem of the day was in terms of gonna need surgery, gonna need this therapy, gonna need to pursue this route, to take that before the Lord and just bathe it in prayer and ask for peace. 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:05.680 Beg him to give us peace about that. 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:13.519 And he has always been able to confirm in me through the Holy Spirit, you know, this is what you need to be doing. 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:22.720 There was there was only one surgery that Madison has had where I really struggled and it took a while for that peace to come. 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:28.960 And that was what I felt like was her most life-changing surgery to get to ostomies when she was 13. 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:32.720 But just to beg him for that peace and he will provide it. 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:34.799 And sometimes he does that himself. 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:36.640 Sometimes he uses other people. 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:47.039 Sometimes he confirms what we should be doing through information that a surgeon can provide or through the comfort that a doctor can provide. 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:58.400 We have been so blessed with world-class physicians that have been able to answer questions and give us peace in these decisions and to really empathize and be like, look, I get it. 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:00.799 You are making tough decisions here. 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:03.680 And so we we want you to have as much information. 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:05.440 We want you to ask the hard questions. 00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:10.240 And I think that's just been really humane of them to do that, very compassionate. 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:13.200 And so I think the Lord has worked through them as well. 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:21.599 But I think the time and bathing everything in prayer is really the only way I feel like I've been able to kind of get past those things. 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:23.200 But like you said, we're human. 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:27.599 And so it it's it's bound to happen. 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:28.240 Right. 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:29.599 It's so it's so good. 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:34.720 And to feel like you have the space to they're the doctor, ask them the questions. 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:38.480 I know through the years they hate this question, but this was your child. 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:39.519 What would you do? 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:43.680 Yeah you know, they always look at me like, really, you're gonna ask me that question? 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:44.480 You're gonna go there? 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.359 I'm like, no, I am gonna go there because we're just stuck. 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.920 We're not really sure what to do in this moment. 00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:59.759 I think one of the hardest parts of the journey with Spina bifida is all those milestones that our kids either don't reach or they reach late. 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:04.400 We're grieving those moving into adulthood. 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:08.000 Their adulthood looks very different a lot of times. 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:17.200 I know I'm

I'm dealing with that right now and wrestling with am I limiting my child with what I think their future can be? 00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:20.640 I mean, am I not giving them enough autonomy over certain things? 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:38.799 So maybe how have you learned to just kind of navigate all of those things without just constant, I guess, comparison and jealousy and and anger even that your child isn't isn't like a neurotypical reaching those milestones neurotypically. 00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:53.759 I think I think part of navigating it is it's a very, I guess, basic uh notion, but I cannot control those things. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:58.400 And it has taken me Madison's whole life to learn that. 00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:05.839 And that was the one thing I feel like God needed to teach me that I had not learned before her, that I'm just not in control. 00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:18.799 And so if I'm not in control of when she's gonna reach those milestones, if she's gonna reach those milestones, then I need to be focusing my energy on something else that I can. 00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:23.759 I can focus on how are we going to celebrate the ones that you do make. 00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:37.680 We had a down with diapers party when she finally was able to stop wearing diapers because we were gonna start being able to control her bladder and her bowels with the chate tube and the stoma to cath with. 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:40.720 And so that was that was a big deal for us, and we celebrated that. 00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:50.559 And I'm sure there's not a lot of six-year-olds that would be celebrating getting out of diapers because they are out of diapers already and their families, that's not a big deal. 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:52.640 But for us, it was huge. 00:26:52.880 --> 00:27:02.799 And so trying to focus on what I can really manage for her instead of those things that are beyond my control. 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:16.319 When things kind of started taking the shift in her care towards these ostomies that she was going to be getting, and she became a wheelchair user, and that was new to us. 00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:27.200 It just really kind of started to feel like I'm not sure that living independently is a reality for Madison in the in the near future. 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:29.920 And I don't think that's me trying to be cynical. 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:40.480 I just don't see the proof of it in how she's managing versus what we're managing and even just some of the physical limitations that she has. 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:46.960 And so I really just was struggling with, I don't, I don't know that that is ever going to happen for her. 00:27:47.119 --> 00:28:00.160 And so, in an effort to try and, you know, maybe find the the positives and and maybe the flip side of that, we wanted to give her the idea that she had like an apartment. 00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:08.319 And so we painted her bedroom door and put numbers on it and put a wreath and a mailbox on

it. 00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:12.559 And um we painted it pink to match her bedroom. 00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:17.279 And it looks like you're walking up to an apartment when you come to her bedroom door. 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:31.359 And I just I wanted it to feel like this is your space, you belong here, even if this is a space that you're gonna live in for a long time, even even if it's not outside of our home, away from us. 00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:36.799 And so just trying to maybe find the positives there. 00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:48.160 And our mutual friend Becky Davidson with Rising Above, she calls it like the flip side, finding the flip side of my daughter is not driving, even though she just turned 16. 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:54.880 Well, I don't have to pay insurance premiums to add a teen driver to my insurance bill, you know? 00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:59.200 And I don't have to worry about her running the roads and getting into accidents. 00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:07.119 And so just trying to reframe those things, I think, has been helpful for me in trying to cope with those missed milestones. 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.119 Yeah, absolutely. 00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:16.160 Are there times when you have to help her reframe some of those things? 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:18.960 I'm in this moment right now with our son. 00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:36.000 How do I help him walk through his own grieving and the reality that, you know, he's watching he has two older brothers and a younger sister, so he's watching his oldest brother get married, and then his younger sister, three years younger, got her driver's license, she's driving, he's not. 00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:46.079 It can just be this tricky balance of all of a sudden he's looking at the world going, wait a second, I'm not doing that and that and that. 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:47.519 Has she experienced that? 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:49.279 And how are you helping her? 00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:51.920 How are you and your husband helping her navigate that? 00:29:52.880 --> 00:30:03.119 Yeah, she she has when we had that surgery when she got the ostomies, that's that's been kind of a real dividing line in her life. 00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:09.200 Before ostomies and after ostomies, is is kind of how we have viewed things. 00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:16.400 And when she came home from hospital with that, I mean, she had just had major abdominal surgery. 00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:19.359 And um, she was in a lot of pain. 00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:24.000 And it was the first shower that we gave her. 00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:27.359 It was, I mean, it was a disaster. 00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:30.720 It probably took us 45 minutes. 00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:34.559 We were carrying her in there, both of us. 00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:38.960 Oh my goodness, I don't imagine that it could have gone any worse than it did. 00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:42.160 And by the time we were done, she was in tears. 00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:43.759 I was in tears. 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:50.480 And so I got her back to the bed to dry her off, and everything was peeling off from the shower. 00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:52.880 So we're gonna have to redress everything. 00:30:53.200 --> 00:31:02.720 And she just broke down in her tears, and she was like, How will I ever live on my own if this is what it's like to take a shower? 00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:04.319 And she was 13. 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:09.359 It just killed me that that's what was going through her mind at that time. 00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:21.119 And the only thing I could do, because I really feel like this is what the Lord has had to press into me, is when he talks about in Matthew about we can't worry about tomorrow. 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:23.599 You know, look at the birds of the air. 00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:28.640 They don't have to worry about what they're gonna eat or what they're gonna drink or where they're gonna sleep. 00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:33.759 And so if he can care for the birds of the air, how much more does he care for us? 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:38.720 And that's all I could tell her in that moment is I was like, I don't know, babe. 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:40.559 I don't have a clue. 00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:45.920 I don't know if there is an answer to that, but we're gonna not worry about that right now. 00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:51.440 We're just gonna focus on today and getting you cleaned up and get this taken care of. 00:31:51.680 --> 00:32:00.640 And I feel like we've had to have that same kind of conversation since then several times of I don't know that we should be thinking that far ahead. 00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:14.960 That I I learned that also very early on of to not try and make a lot of plans in my mind and not try and frame a lot of expectations because I would wind up devastated and feel like a failure, and she would too. 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:28.880 And so, just in that moment though, after that, just seeing her so broken about it was just trying to encourage her that God has a plan and we don't know it right now, and we're not gonna worry about it for tomorrow. 00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:35.440 Let's just focus on what we can do right now and today, and he will provide, he will make a way in those circumstances. 00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:36.319 Yeah. 00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:37.519 And I love that. 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:39.440 It's a good reminder for me to hear that too. 00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:41.200 Of don't look too far ahead. 00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:42.960 Like God holds tomorrow. 00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:44.880 Let's just focus on today. 00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:47.279 What is he calling us to do today? 00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:52.640 And then also modeling that for our kids and and total dependence on the Lord. 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:56.960 And you know, you talked about earlier how we are not in control. 00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:00.720 And um, I think our kids are learning that too. 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:02.799 Like, we're we're not in

control. 00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:05.119 God is, and he's gonna hold us. 00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:13.359 So I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about the community and especially the church community around you. 00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:16.000 How has your church community come around you? 00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:23.599 And how is it one of those strategies of that we need community in order to walk this journey with our kids? 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:24.480 Yeah. 00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:33.359 So you said it best uh off the mic when you said that having a church community is a survival strategy for special needs families. 00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:35.279 And I could not agree with that more. 00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:37.359 You hit the nail on the head there. 00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:57.359 And I think for us, um, when we moved to Cookville, we were here for I guess it was four years before Madison came along, um, where we were digging in and planting roots at our church and getting involved. 00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:03.519 And it was just Dustin and Mandy, and you know, finding community there with just the two of us. 00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:06.880 And then when we miscarried, they rallied around us. 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:15.679 And then when we got Madison's diagnosis, truly at that time, there was nobody else in our church body that was walking a similar path. 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:24.880 And so it it felt as though the church was literally walking that road with us and carrying our burden with us. 00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:32.000 And because we live in Cookville and we have no family here, both of our parents live about an hour and a half from us. 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:33.840 So they were our family. 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:36.800 There was no one else but them to lean on. 00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:39.119 And they just did it so beautifully. 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:59.679 And they have the whole time since I found out I was pregnant with her and it was going to be spina bifida, and I was sobbing at the altar to just this summer when she had another pretty intense surgery and recovery phase, and have been the hands and feet of Jesus for us time and time and time again. 00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:07.199 And I have told some of my closest friends, I was like, I know you've got to be tired of us needing something, but I need you. 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:15.519 I know that, I know that you say Madison's name, and I know you lift our family's name up in prayer all the time, but I still need you to after all this time. 00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:40.400 And I'm just so thankful that they've never stopped and they've just been doing life right along with us, and they have made us feel as though there is no difference between us and any other family that's in our church body, just because we have to do things differently, or we maybe have to miss a little here or a little there, you know, when there's been hospital stays, but it it just has been, I I don't know where we would

be without them. 00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:54.960 And that's not to say our families have not been just amazing and supportive, not would never imply that, but because this church is here where we are and doing life with us, they have just been everything to us. 00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:55.840 Yeah. 00:35:56.159 --> 00:36:02.239 I think one of the things I hear you saying is they've just been willing to walk through life with you. 00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:10.000 You know, I was gonna ask you like, what are some of the ways someone's listening to the podcast and they don't have a child with disabilities? 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:11.760 What are the ways that they can help? 00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:13.039 But they didn't walk away. 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:14.639 And I think that's one of the fears. 00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:19.920 I know personally that's a fear that I have sometimes is that this is a lifetime thing, right? 00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:23.199 My friend Jonna Hensley says, forever nesting. 00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:25.440 There's a possibility we're gonna be forever nesting. 00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:30.559 And we have friends who are close to empty nesters, they're traveling, they're doing all these things. 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:39.920 And I actually looked at my husband the other day and I said, Do you sometimes feel just a little bit wish that we could do that and be in that space? 00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:50.639 And he said, He said, Yeah, it can be really hard because our life looks very different, and our kids might live with us till till we go to glory. 00:36:51.199 --> 00:37:05.440 But I think when people are willing to be there for the long haul, and and also the other thing that you said is courageous enough for you to say, I'm so glad you're here, like I need you. 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:13.920 A lot of times families aren't willing to be vulnerable and say, I need help and this is what I need, and be specific. 00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:19.440 Is there anything you would add that's been helpful for supporting your family through this journey? 00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:31.840 I think part of the reason why our church family has been so in it with us is Dustin and I are both very outspoken, extroverted people. 00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:36.079 Never met a stranger and we overshare. 00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:39.280 I mean, we we joke about that, is that we overshare. 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:50.159 But that is how, like you said, just like opening up your circle, you've got to invite people in because it's too much. 00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:54.000 It's just too much to bear alone. 00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:56.159 And we have not held back. 00:37:56.480 --> 00:38:05.360 And our our friends have wanted to be right there and tell us what is the dirty, low-down detail here about what's happening to her body. 00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:08.559 And can we come help do something? 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:29.760 You know, I would say if you have any listeners that don't have a child living with special needs and they're just wondering how to be a good friend, is to just ask and not let that family off the hook when they say, Oh, no, we're good, we're good, um, because our friends have been persistent. 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:35.760 And to the point that there have been times where we didn't say anything and they just did it. 00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:37.360 They just, they just acted. 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:49.360 So, I mean, that was simple things like one time we came home from the hospital and they had planted our flower bed full of flowers so that we had something pretty to look at um while we were inside. 00:38:49.440 --> 00:39:01.199 And they've bought our groceries and they've mowed our grass and they've done a lot of other beautiful, profound things for us that I won't share, but as I'm sure you've experienced too. 00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:07.760 But uh it's because I feel like we've not been afraid to share those things with them. 00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:11.920 And they just kept asking, and they never would take no from us. 00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:12.880 We don't need help. 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:19.840 Like, for example, this surgery that Madison just had this summer, she was gonna be having it the last two weeks of our school year. 00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:21.519 So I was still teaching. 00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:25.280 It was actually a pretty intense uh time of year for me. 00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:32.880 And she was having this surgery, and I was only gonna get to stay with her in the hospital for two days, and then my husband would be there the rest of the time. 00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:37.119 And one of my friends inquired, she was like, Well, we're gonna do a meal train. 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:39.920 I was like, No, I was like, I'm fine. 00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:41.199 There's nothing wrong with me. 00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:44.480 There's no reason why I can't cook and provide dinner to my family. 00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:47.760 And they're like, no, we're still doing a meal train. 00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:52.480 And I was very uncomfortable with it, and I really pushed back and fought them on it. 00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:56.239 And they were like, just let us love your family. 00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:05.519 And if I have had that said to me once, I've it's probably been a hundred times, and I've I've had to start letting it sink in, is to just let them love on us. 00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:15.679 And if that's how they know to do and all they know to do, then who am I to deny that the opportunity for them to share God's love with us? 00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:19.760 And so I did, I I didn't want to, but we we set up the meal train. 00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:22.079 And do you know that it was the most amazing thing? 00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:24.079 And it wasn't because I wasn't capable. 00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:26.239 They were like, we just don't want you to worry about it. 00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:31.679 We know that her recovery is intense, and

so let us take this off your plate. 00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:40.800 And they did it so well, and they've been doing that her whole life in one season or one trauma-filled moment to another. 00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:42.719 That's that's how they've been the whole time. 00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:43.039 Yeah. 00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:44.719 I love that. 00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:58.960 We go to a family camp every summer where the director says we look most like Jesus when we serve, and when we don't allow other people to serve us, we're not allowing them to look like Jesus and act like him and serve like him. 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.159 And so I think that's really, really important. 00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:03.039 Yeah. 00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:10.320 So as we wrap up, I want to talk a little bit about advocating for your child, which we've had to do medically, right? 00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:14.400 For many years, but particularly within the school system. 00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:23.760 What do you wish every parent of a child with disabilities understood is their role as an advocate and how has that played out in your journey? 00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:32.719 Well, I think it's important that parents know that if you're not advocating, there's a good chance that nobody else is. 00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:36.239 And so you you gotta do it. 00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:54.079 And even if it means that you might temporarily make some enemies or step on some toes, that is your job to fight for the quality of education that your child deserves, just like any other child that's in that school. 00:41:54.320 --> 00:42:01.599 And so I that has been a particularly challenging task for me as a teacher and as a parent. 00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:11.920 And so I can look back on some situations where I felt like I could not fully advocate for her without becoming the villain in my school system. 00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:17.119 And so I had to defer to my husband a lot and be like, I'm gonna need you to fight this battle. 00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:19.360 I'm gonna need you to go toe-to-toe on this one. 00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:28.639 And I'm just gonna have to be a silent observer because the mama bear is wanting to come out and it would not be good for me professionally. 00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:32.239 But a lot of people are not in that situation. 00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:38.000 But I would say that I think it's really important to know what your rights are. 00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:45.920 And every IEP meeting that you go to, you should be asked, do you know what your procedural safeguards are? 00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:49.599 Have you been provided with a copy of your procedural safeguards? 00:42:49.840 --> 00:43:03.199 And if a parent's answer to that is no, then they need to halt, they need to stop, and they need to become aware of what is within their right to ask for so that they're going in as informed as possible. 00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:19.360 Because here's what I see as a teacher on the other side of the table is that these teachers and these case managers are getting called into meetings right as they were, you know, teaching and doing other things, and then they've just pressed pause on those to run into this meeting. 00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:25.760 They're not really, their head's not in it because it's just this is the task of the moment for them to do. 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:34.639 And so are they really coming into that meeting holding your child's needs and goals in the forefront of their mind? 00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:43.519 And the answer is probably no, because of the pace that teachers have and the expectations and the responsibilities that they have. 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:53.840 That doesn't excuse a teacher or a case manager from giving their full attention, I'm just being honest, of what it's like when we sit down at the table to those meetings. 00:43:53.920 --> 00:44:09.119 And so a parent walking in not knowing what their rights are and What their child needs and should have access to is really just, you know, you're kind of behind the eight ball already if you don't know. 00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:13.199 And so I would just really encourage parents to do their homework. 00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:50.960 And if your child has a specific diagnosis, you know, going to legislation online, reading what really is in the IDEA to know what is supposed to be provided, understanding the civil rights laws about discrimination for people with disabilities, those are important pieces of the puzzle that I think parents need so that they can recognize if there are things starting to take a turn, or if you were starting to feel like maybe the child's concerns and needs and wants are not being prioritized. 00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:56.719 I don't think any of the people that are sitting in those meetings are thinking, oh, we're gonna pull a fast one on them. 00:44:56.880 --> 00:45:01.679 You know, we're gonna, we're not gonna do this and we're not gonna provide these accommodations. 00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:03.679 No, it's it's not that at all. 00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:12.480 It's that it is hard sometimes to make a distinction between this child on paper and the five others that they've got meetings about in the same day. 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:19.440 So the parents really gotta come to the table with as much information as possible. 00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:20.159 Yeah. 00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:26.159 Is there a website or anything that you have followed or used to help educate yourself? 00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:32.960 Well, in some of the classes that I've taught in the past, I was teaching students about becoming teachers. 00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:40.480 And so we would always investigate the 504 act and become familiar with the IDEA. 00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:52.480 And ADA is fine to learn about, but that's really more about access to physical spaces, and that's not necessarily a priority in the educational space. 00:45:52.559 --> 00:46:01.199 I mean, it

can be, it is, but it's not as prominent as knowing educationally what you can ask for and what you can hold schools accountable to. 00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:20.239 I don't have like a particular website just you know that would pop right off the top of my mind, but looking at uh the 504 Act and IDEA is helpful, but then every school system should be able to provide those procedural safeguards in writing for them to look through. 00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:21.199 Yeah. 00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:28.960 Um, even with homeschooling, my son's had an IEP because we're unique in Ohio where there's scholarship money. 00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:40.079 If you're homeschooled and have an IEP, but even like I would get sent it's a packet, I get a paper, you know, every time that we would have an IEP meeting, and when he was in school when he was younger. 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:43.679 And I I do think that that is it is really, really important. 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:55.039 So as you look back on the past 16 years of your unexpected journey, where do you see God's faithfulness the most? 00:46:55.360 --> 00:47:10.079 Or maybe is there something that you want to share where you just have seen him or just or there could just be an overarching theme, but um just the way that he's carried you through this journey with Spina Betheta? 00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:12.559 Wow. 00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:19.039 I don't how do you really sum up 16 years? 00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:25.039 I don't I don't know because there's just what have you learned about his character, I guess. 00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:26.320 Maybe yeah. 00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:37.280 So I think in Romans, Romans 8 28, where it tells us, for we know that um he causes all things to work together for good. 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:56.800 I think that's kind of been the overarching message uh for me to learn is that he causes all things, even the hard things, even the messy things, the beautiful things, the teaching moments and all of those things. 00:47:56.960 --> 00:48:26.079 He he's caused all of it to work together and it for good, and that good is to bring him glory because so many of the things that we've experienced have been there's some things that we can help, you know, we can use our brains, we can inform ourselves, we can make choices, but um, some of it has just been straight up God has just provided above and beyond us and has worked in those situations. 00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:28.239 And, you know, he didn't need us at all. 00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:32.400 We've just been the grateful recipients of his grace. 00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:44.880 And then I always think about in Proverbs, I think it's Proverbs 16, 9, where he talks about in his heart a man makes his plans, but the Lord orders his steps. 00:48:45.119 --> 00:48:54.559 And so almost 30-year-old Mandy, who was about to have Madison, had her whole life mapped out and had her steps ordered. 00:48:54.880 --> 00:49:04.800 And God just completely diverted my path into this journey of special needs that I did not need or want or ask for. 00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:14.320 Of course, none of us would, but he has just been so good that on that path that he has worked all things out for good. 00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:22.960 And it even says in Romans later in that chapter that we overwhelmingly conquer in all of those things. 00:49:23.119 --> 00:49:32.400 And so even the things that have been hard, that have been so tough, that have been devastating, we have still gained victory over those. 00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:38.880 And ultimately the victory that Madison accepted Jesus as her Lord and Savior when she was 13. 00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:48.559 And she has the promise that one day Spina befida will not be a part of her reality and she will be whole and she'll be healed. 00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:54.079 And she's gonna get the victory over that through through him and through his plans. 00:49:54.320 --> 00:50:02.079 And I ask myself sometimes, like, would I have known these things about the Lord had he not put me on this path? 00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:30.079 And I know God would would make himself known and would receive the glory in anything that we set our attention on him, but I just don't know that I would have learned it as personally, as intimately as I have, had I not been walking this path that I did not choose for myself, but that God has just been ever present in the whole time throughout her whole life. 00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:31.280 Yeah. 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:36.880 And on that word, we're going to wrap up because there's really not much more to say. 00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:39.440 So thank you, Mandy, for being a guest. 00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:41.199 This was a wonderful conversation. 00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:45.280 We could probably talk for three hours, um, which I love. 00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:48.480 And um, yeah, I feel the same way. 00:50:48.639 --> 00:50:50.400 So God is faithful. 00:50:50.719 --> 00:50:52.800 Um, we are more than conquerors through Him. 00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:54.000 So thank you. 00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:56.320 And thank you so much for having me, Carrie. 00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:05.360 If you have enjoyed this podcast, would you do Carrie a favor and hit the subscribe button to where you listen to podcasts? 00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:07.440 Also, leave a review. 00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:11.199 This helps the podcast to become more visible to others. 00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:22.000 If you would like to share your story on the podcast, visit Carrie's website, carriemholt.com backslash podcast, and fill out the form. 00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:30.400 You can find Carrie online on Facebook and Instagram, and on her Substack page at CM Holt. 00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:35.199 Thank you for joining us today on this unexpected life podcast. 00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:40.079 Real stories, real hope in this unexpected journey.