บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Why Does Aslan Cry? The Magician's Nephew and the Gospel

me in that direction of there you know, we talked last time about how they like Uncle Andrew doesn't hear the voice of Aslan. and I think there's some there's a reason for that, right? And I think it's this is partially why. so that that was something that I was picking up on. Any thoughts from you? What did you notice? Sarah Crowder: You I'm noticing your curiosity because you're you're showing such kind of attention to Andrew, Uncle Andrew, where I am just over him. I find him Andy: Mm. Sarah Crowder: to be so despicable with the way he tries to manipulate the children to experiment Andy: Yeah. Sarah Crowder: and like the hamsters and like he's so gross. And like also Andy: Yeah. Sarah Crowder: isn't there like his kind of some weird comments where It's like very problematic, where you're like, Uncle Andrew's the worst, selfish, lazy, terrible to you know, terrible to his family. I I I I am going to step back and say, how can I see Uncle Andrew and be curious about him? Because I think we do have Uncle Andrew's in our world that I can't just. be like angry at and just annoyed. Although don't you find him he's so comically Self-absorbed and and Andy: yeah. Sarah Crowder: rude, and like some of the things he says, you can't help but be like, my gosh, that's so insane. Like, that's a really wild take, Uncle Andrew, what you're doing with Andy: Yep. Sarah Crowder: the you know, and and then and then his inability to recognize the goodness of Narnia and and Andy: Mm. Yeah. Sarah Crowder: his his interactions with the animals and the talking beasts and stuff is is is hilarious. But maybe I need to get more curious about Andrew and s Uncle Andrew and seeing how he's what is he what is Lewis trying to teach me with Uncle Andrew? Hmm. Andy: Yeah. That's a good question. I think partially I'm curious 'cause dude carries my name, so that's not fair. But yeah, I think the it's all right. Sarah Crowder: Yeah. Sorry about that. Do you think there's any reason that he chose Andrew for Uncle Andrew's name? And I wonder where Diggory comes from, because that's an unusual name. I don't know. Sorry. Andy: I don't know. I I I think what I'll say also is like there's something about the that Uncle Andrew is evil very quickly. And in a kid's story that's important, right? you know who the villain is. But but there's also this there's a sense of poetic justice in a lot of what Lewis writes. And the poetic justice for Andrew, you know, is wh when they get to Narnia, the the only thing he can talk about is like, you know, this place would be great if I could, you know. get a gun and shoot the lion, get rid of all these animals, then this place would be perfect. And it's like just the complete Sarah Crowder: Find it yes yes so Andy: opposite of what anyone else what anyone should think. And then Sarah Crowder: Right. Andy: what ends up happening to him is like the animals end up treating him like a tree, like less than he Sarah Crowder: Like it Yeah. Andy: is, because and he's treating them as less than they are. And they, you know, plant him in the ground because they think he's a tree. so there is that sort of like comical poetic justice that that occurs with Uncle Andrew. That that I don't know, sometimes when you have a a villain in a children's story, you just can't help but sort of laugh at their ridiculousness. And that's sort of where I've come to with Uncle Andrew. Sarah Crowder: Mm. Andy: And and he's also like, I I watch out for like these patterns in in literature a lot. And it's clear to me that he's that Lewis is creating a pattern between Uncle Andrew and Queen Jadis, right? he's just a lesser version of her. And if he was Sarah Crowder: Mm-hmm. Andy: b more competent, he would become her. But he's just not. He's a fool Sarah Crowder: Mm. Mm-hmm. Andy: who just happened to lucked into some of this stuff. So Sarah Crowder: Hmm. Andy: anyway. Sarah Crowder: Yeah, interesting. I when I was both times, the one part that really grabbed my attention, and it has to do a lot with our our common friends that we have in Dr. Robert Kolb, which I can call Bob, I can say Bob with your encouragement and his encouragements, my my friend Bob. Andy: Yeah. Sarah Crowder: his his book face to face has had a big impact on how I'm thinking about theology. And he really does these clear pictures, Bob Kolb does in in his book, and I think he does this in his theology as well, of what are we facing and facing the devil, facing ourselves, our sinful self, and what does it look like to look in the face of our creator? There is this moment where Diggory is in face to face with Aslan, but he can't even he can't even bear to look into his eyes. If it's Andy: Mm-hmm. Sarah Crowder: out of maybe a combination of fear and respect, but he's looking at his claws. And there's this kind of I I think about this a lot of How would of course we're talking about Aslan, but how would Christ look at us? And in in art, in the Middle Ages, especially, during the plague and after, there is this kind of like judgment of Christ, this kind of powerful kind of judge of Christ, versus a shepherding kind of a gentle Christ. And we Andy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sarah Crowder: we see without getting too nerdy, but like we see. see that because of this kind of harsh view of Christ as judge and this kind of maybe distance scary figure that we Andy: Mm-hmm. Sarah Crowder: see Mary as a more approachable figure in a visual theology. But that's not what we have in Scripture. What we have in Scripture is Christ who will wipe away every tear from our eyes and who knows us and knows our name and cares for us, this kind of gospel given for you kind of language. And Andy: Mm-hmm. Sarah Crowder: I I just love, I just want to read this little section here because Diggory wants to ask for help for his mom and he's scared to. and he's he's gonna a he's trying to share with Aslan. He wants to ask Aslan. He says, please won't you give me something that will cure mother?

He's looking at the lion's great feet and the huge claws on them. Now, in his despair, he looked up at its face. And what he saw surprised him as much as anything in his whole life. For the tawny face was bent down near his own. and wonder of wonders, great shining tears stood in the lion's eyes. They were such big, bright, compared to Diggory's own, that for a moment he felt as if the lion must be really sorrier about his mother than he was himself. my son, my son, said Aslan, I know. Grief is great. Only you and I in the land know that yet. Let us be good to one another. Like Okay, that's what the gospel sounds like. That God knows our grief and pain, even and He experiences it and knows it deeper than we know ourselves. What Andy: Yeah. Sarah Crowder: a beautiful picture of who we have in Christ, who even when he's on the cross, is caring for his mother, caring for the people Andy: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Crowder: persecuting him. That kind of loving look and facing. Facing the face of the creator who is a loving creator who understands pain and grief in a way that the people of Narnia or the creatures of Narnia they haven't even experienced yet, but he knows and he cares and he loves and he sacrifices. It's what a what a beautiful picture that Lewis paints with that. It's great. Andy: Yeah. And a as a I'll say two things. First, yes. I think there's a lot of things that give away who Aslan is from the Narnian world to our world. But one of the things that gives it away is the tears, right? Jesus wept, Aslan wept. Sarah Crowder: Right. Right. Andy: That is trying to communicate to us who who is this? Who is this Lion? It is it is Jesus. Aslan and Jesus are are meant to be the same being. in in in some sense in Lewis's world. And the tears give that away. The other thing that I will say is as a as a man who's living through a time where Toxic masculinity is everywhere, and the messaging that I receive about what it means to be a man is very different from how I live as a man. I I appreciate being called back to the way that Jesus was and the empathy that he shows, the compassion that he shows for others. the emotion that he shows and There there's something about the tears of that that really always strike me. You know, crying crying is not only okay as an adult, as a man, but crying is Christ-like. Sarah Crowder: Praying is Christ like Andy: And and the idea that that would ever be avoided, whoever put that into the heads of of men in in our culture, it's just such a shame. and so as a pastor, as a you know, as a person who is a very generally emotional towards sadness, frequently, like I I will cry watching commercials, I will cry watching almost any piece of media. That's just who I am. I'm very quick to that emotion. it's hard to to it's hard to be in the world sometimes where where I am that emotional and the messaging around me for for so long has been the opposite of what I experience. So I appreciate Aslan's tears and I appreciate that moment, that face-to-face moment. that he has with Diggory. 'cause I do think that is a powerful understanding of when we are going through grief, when we are going through something so difficult, this is the right response. Not only as we go through it, but as we sit with people who are going through it as well. Tears are the right response. Sarah Crowder: It's a beautiful picture of i i that kind of closeness. It reminds me of the scene where in the chronicle in the Line The Witch in the Wardrobe, where Edmund is being restored. And like Andy: Mm. Sarah Crowder: in the movie you don't really get to s to hear what's happening, but you can just see the closeness. Andy: Mm-hmm. Sarah Crowder: And There is the reality of being that close to a lion is a powerful creature. Andy: Mm-hmm. Sarah Crowder: when we lived when we lived in Missouri, we were living in a in a flat farm area in Warrenton Missouri, near a a lion sanctuary was like a couple miles away. And Andy: Hmm. Sarah Crowder: there would be still nights after the harvest where at sunset you could not just hear but feel the lions roaring and it was Andy: Really? Sarah Crowder: unsettling because it was very well Andy: In Missouri, huh? Sarah Crowder: it was actually okay not to get too weird but do you remember what was that show during lockdown that everybody was watching that guy he it was that guy it was that what was Tiger King Andy: It was that guy. The Tiger King guy? Yeah. Sarah Crowder: different king not not Aslan king of king of the woods or whatever but Andy: That's funny. Sarah Crowder: anyway I think w there was some c I don't think it was that guy, but I think that that guy bought lions from that place. There was some Missouri connection to that. I Andy: Weird. Okay. Sarah Crowder: don't know. It is a powerful sound. A powerful, the creator of the world, a powerful being. Even in his humiliation, Jesus does have this kind of power, but yet he's in this moment and in on the cross and at Lazarus' tomb, we see the tenderness and the the knowing in a way that we don't even know ourselves. That gives me such comfort because I just had a student who was asking for some advice on how to help a grieving friend. And sometimes that can be so tricky because you don't know the right thing to say. And you don't know. God knows even more than than what we might know about ourselves. He knows the grief that we experience and the struggles that we carry in a way Andy: Mm-hmm. Sarah Crowder: that's so comforting to have someone who really knows what we're going through. That's that's so comforting. for me. Andy: Yeah. And and I think for me what I what I tend to learn from stuff like this is like When we're worried about what to say, this is a good scene to think about that, because Aslan does say things. But what he says is not nearly as important as the look on his face, right? Like, just his presence matters way more than the words that he a that he happens to say. And the same is true for

us. Like, when someone needs us, like when someone's going through something difficult, when someone's grieving, you know, your presence matters more than what you're gonna say. They're not gonna remember what you said. Like Sarah Crowder: Yeah, that's right. Right. Andy: They're going through something. They'll remember that you were Sarah Crowder: Yep. Andy: there. They're not going to remember what you made for food. They'll just remember that you cared about them. So don't get caught up in the details as you're trying to care for someone, show them compassion. If someone needs your help with something, that they're going through something difficult, just being there. That's all that matters. Don't worry about the rest of it. Sarah Crowder: That is that is good. What other things as we're thinking about the movie? Andy: Mm-hmm. Sarah Crowder: What other visuals do you think, looking back at Magician's nephew, do you think will ha could have a really good gospel handle payoff if we if it's done well? What would be another I like I will flip a table if we don't get this crying Aslan? Like that will make me upset. Like I will make Andy: Right. Yeah. Sarah Crowder: a blog post or something and rage online. Like Andy: Yeah, yeah. That's fair. Sarah Crowder: And so I get it, I I I'll probably do that. I'll probably do that. But what are the things that would be like, yes, I and maybe we don't even know like what those things will look like, but what are some other moments that you think will have really good gospel connections that we might see from the from the book? Andy: That's good question. I'm not entirely sure. I think the visuals that I'm looking forward to might not be the ones with the best gospel handles. Sarah Crowder: well let's go. Be free. You're free. Andy: I'm looking forward to seeing things grow in Narnia. Sarah Crowder: Mm. Andy: I'm looking forward to seeing the trees go from you know from nothing to can you recognize it as a tree to a tree? I'm looking forward to seeing the lamppost grow. Sarah Crowder: Yeah. Andy: you know, that's the sort of stuff that I'm like, I just want to see how they how they go about that, because I just have no idea how they will. I want to see strawberry bewinged and become Sarah Crowder: Mm. Andy: fletch, right? I wanna see how they go about that. Because those are the types of shots that like from a cinematography standpoint I just find fascinating. Like the the scene that I think of most for this is the scene in Two Towers where Theodon goes from like old gray beard to like Sarah Crowder: Harkin into Yes. Andy: you know, middle-aged face. Sarah Crowder: Yeah. Andy: it's just such a brilliant shot and Sarah Crowder: Right. Andy: I like those sorts of dynamics and so I want to see that that re the creation of the world in these different ways. The other one that I I I hope they keep in just 'cause it's so funny to me is I hope they keep in when Jadis chucks the lamppost at Aslan and hits him in the

face. and he just doesn't even move and just keeps going. that to me is Yeah. Sarah Crowder: She's so chaotic and it's such a scene. Like that is that like there's I I hope to laugh a lot. I think there's a lot of laughing moments in the story, but that is Andy: Mm-hmm. Sarah Crowder: a such a chaos scene of her chucking that at him and like and all of the kind of I mean she's just throwing insults at everyone and d giving orders to everyone. It's it's Comical really. Uh-huh. Andy: Yep. Yep. Yeah, and and I am curious like i in the earth scenes that they have, like how are they gonna handle the chaos that she creates on the street? Like, especially if it's modernized, like what's that gonna look like? I'm curious. I'm also curious how how is Greta Gerwig gonna handle the the tree, like the the tree Sarah Crowder: Yes. Andy: of youth that not only is you know, Diggory plucks an apple from and then another one is planted from that, how how is she gonna handle the the tr the, you know, spoiler, the the apple when it gets brought back? how how is that going to because it's described as different, right? Like it doesn't have the same quality when it's in Narnia as when it's in Earth and like those sorts of things. How is she going to show the differences Sarah Crowder: Mm. Andy: in some of that I'm curious about Sarah Crowder: Yeah, that whole partner tree idea that the wind is blowing at one place and it's feeling it like there's this connection between the two worlds. Andy: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Crowder: Cause it's done in a narrative style. How do you visualize that between these two trees? within the the conclusion of the movie. I mean, it could land Andy: Mm-hmm. Sarah Crowder: really, really good. but how do you land it? The wardrobe's in it. they s they show the wardrobe in the trailer. And so are they gonna do the whole story or they just gonna hint at you know what I mean? I don't know how how much of it she's gonna reveal of the connection between the the two trees and their and the Andy: It's a good question. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I can see again, spoilers, I can see her doing a this is Professor Kirk when he's older, this is Diggory, at this more in the line which wardrobe time. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Sarah Crowder: Well and we hear his voice, right? she's cast an older Diggory to be the narrator. So we're gonna get a little bit but I don't know if he's even I think he's just recorded his voice. I don't think we're even gonna see him as older Diggory. I don't know. I don't know. I have no insight. Andy: Sure. But but that would be an interesting take of just more of a flashback memory almost and you know, that sort of thing. But who knows, like I think it'll be a a creative way to go about it. I'm not too worried about that. but yeah, I I'm hopeful to see I'm hopeful to see the trees in all their glory in different ways. Sarah Crowder: Can't hardly get more biblical than trees and hope and life. And, you know, when we when we think about the garden and the creation and the garden of Eden and the two trees, and then Jesus hanging on a tree for redemption, and then the tree of life in Revelation with leaves for the healing of the nations and this kind of tree that goes through the universe of scripture from beginning to end, this kind of very tree theology of God's promises and God's hope for us. I think there's a that's that's gonna be really cool to see. a really easy gospel handle too to talk about. well the tree in the magician's nephew, yeah, but also there's trees in the Bible, too. we should Andy: Sure, sure. Sarah Crowder: be ready for for those kinds of conversations. I'm curious for our listeners, what are some of the things you are looking forward to seeing? because I think we're gonna have to talk about this more when the movie comes out. but in the meantime, remember the good news. That is for you in Christ Jesus, that He has on the tree laid down His life for you, and that we have this hope of this tree of life, which the leaves will be for the healing of the nations. And I do want it. I do want it. Love that. Where's that last line that Aslan gives that warning? It's good. I feel like Andy: Yeah. Sarah Crowder: you know, Lewis is writing it in his own time, but I feel like it is a good Good warning. Let's see. It's Okay, I found it, but it might be a little bit of a law a warning, but I think it's just so fun and Andy: We'll listen to it first. Sarah Crowder: good. Yeah. So this is at the very end of the book. And Polly says that we're not quite as bad as that world of Karn, you know, that has like has ended. And Aslan says, Not yet, daughter of Eve, not yet, but you are growing more like it. It is not certain that some wicked one of your race will not find out a secret as evil as. Deplorable wor word, and use it to destroy all you living things. And soon, very soon, before you are an old man and an old woman, great nations in your world will be ruled by tyrants who care no more for joy and justice and mercy than Emperor Jadis Let your world beware, that is the warning. So let's take Aslan's warning, and instead Andy: Yeah. Sarah Crowder: of being tyrants, let us like recommended. look for joy, justice, and mercy. Isn't that isn't that lovely? That sounds like the gospel. Joy, justice, and mercy that we have in Christ, this is good news indeed. Andy: Yeah, I'll take that. Yeah. Sarah Crowder: Okay, good. All right. Well, thank you for joining us. And I I hope that you will come back as we talk more K-pop demon hunters. We have some more themes. I wanted to talk about clothes, Andrew. Would you like to do an episode where we could talk about the different clothing in K-pop demon hunters and the clothing that we have in scripture? There is a lot of descriptions in there. We could get even a Andy: I will be grateful to learn. Sarah Crowder: little bit extra nerdy and talk about clothes in the 16th century, because I think that that's a foundational Reformation movement when Luther changes from his clothing of a monk and clothing to a professor is his reformation break that everyone's looking for. Andy: Interesting. Sarah Crowder: I think there's a lot that our clothes can teach us. If you're interested, please join us again. Thank you for joining us.