บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ 273. Quick Thinks: How to Create Messages People Remember

participated in a conference and it was held in a castle. 00:03:40.985 --> 00:03:44.555 So sometimes the environment in itself contributes to making the 00:03:44.555 --> 00:03:46.445 experience a little extra special. 00:03:46.655 --> 00:03:50.045 Another one that I just presented at recently was in a monastery. 00:03:50.290 --> 00:03:52.480 I've heard of events being held on a boat. 00:03:52.780 --> 00:03:55.690 I've heard of business meetings happening in something that otherwise 00:03:55.690 --> 00:03:59.230 wouldn't have been considered your typical and predictable boardroom. 00:03:59.410 --> 00:04:03.970 So one of the reasons they're extra special is because, remember, it's brain 00:04:03.970 --> 00:04:06.040 body interacting with the environment. 00:04:06.040 --> 00:04:09.660 So the environment itself is unpredictable, you increase the 00:04:09.660 --> 00:04:11.470 chances of attention and memory. 00:04:11.740 --> 00:04:12.460 Matt Abrahams: Super cool. 00:04:12.460 --> 00:04:15.280 So if you really want to help your audience, it's not just thinking about 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:16.810 your message and what you ask them to do. 00:04:16.810 --> 00:04:19.270 The space in which you do it can have impact. 00:04:20.114 --> 00:04:23.565 I want to turn to two things that are very important in storytelling, and I'm 00:04:23.565 --> 00:04:27.885 curious to get your perspective on how they help us with attention and memory. 00:04:28.125 --> 00:04:30.794 The value of intrigue and curiosity. 00:04:31.034 --> 00:04:33.375 These are tools that get people to lean in. 00:04:33.734 --> 00:04:36.615 What are your thoughts on those and do you have some research and specific 00:04:36.615 --> 00:04:38.294 advice on how we can leverage those? 00:04:38.594 --> 00:04:40.905 Carmen Simon: It's an interesting dimension, especially that 00:04:40.905 --> 00:04:42.734 of getting the brain curious. 00:04:42.960 --> 00:04:46.559 And not an easy one to reach because are you noticing that some people are 00:04:46.559 --> 00:04:51.270 so jaded where whatever you show them is like, eh, another one of those. 00:04:51.539 --> 00:04:54.929 So this is why I am glad that you have the wonderful listeners that you're 00:04:54.929 --> 00:04:58.440 talking about because we need people like them to try a little bit harder 00:04:58.440 --> 00:05:02.369 to instigate and get the brain to be just a little bit extra excited. 00:05:02.729 --> 00:05:05.489 Obviously, you often rely on intrinsic motivation. 00:05:05.489 --> 00:05:09.479 Like some people come to your content and they're intrinsically motivated to 00:05:09.479 --> 00:05:11.789 listen, and they're curious about things. 00:05:12.210 --> 00:05:15.390 When they may not, then you have the responsibility, can you 00:05:15.390 --> 00:05:17.730 create some tension in the brain? 00:05:18.090 --> 00:05:22.350 What I'm noticing in my research time and time again is that as we calculate 00:05:22.350 --> 00:05:25.650 emotions, and from a neuroscience perspective, we have two variables 00:05:25.650 --> 00:05:27.450 that are instrumental to emotion. 00:05:27.450 --> 00:05:27.990 What are they? 00:05:28.350 --> 00:05:31.350 Valence, which is how much the brain enjoys an experience. 00:05:31.350 --> 00:05:32.700 It could be positive or negative. 00:05:33.109 --> 00:05:37.200 And arousal meaning how alert and awake people are during that experience. 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:39.060 So picture this as quadrants now. 00:05:39.060 --> 00:05:43.080 So you have valence on a horizontal axis, you have arousal on a vertical axis. 00:05:43.485 --> 00:05:47.535 At these quadrants, you have these intersections of you're really 00:05:47.535 --> 00:05:50.055 amped up and you like something, and now you're alert, like it 00:05:50.055 --> 00:05:51.975 cannot possibly be nonchalant. 00:05:52.305 --> 00:05:54.375 Matt Abrahams: What immediately popped into my mind is listening 00:05:54.375 --> 00:05:55.635 to a comedian tell jokes. 00:05:55.905 --> 00:05:59.505 Carmen Simon: So a good standup comedian doesn't necessarily let you relax lower. 00:05:59.505 --> 00:06:02.415 Right now you can relax a little bit more, maybe like reading a 00:06:02.415 --> 00:06:06.045 book lower left that's negative valence, but you're not upset. 00:06:06.460 --> 00:06:10.390 So as you're thinking about these quadrants, know this lower left 00:06:10.390 --> 00:06:12.400 negative valence and low arousal. 00:06:12.400 --> 00:06:16.480 That's where boredom settles in, and that's where memories go to die. 00:06:16.900 --> 00:06:20.110 Some people might think that, oh, should always have things that are positive. 00:06:20.110 --> 00:06:22.420 Either that they amp you up or they keep you more relaxed, 00:06:22.420 --> 00:06:23.710 but positive nonetheless. 00:06:23.980 --> 00:06:25.240 But that's not what I'm observing. 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:28.810 Quite often attention and memory are created at the intersection of 00:06:28.810 --> 00:06:31.060 negative valence and high arousal. 00:06:31.060 --> 00:06:32.310 Now I'm feeling it. 00:06:32.760 --> 00:06:34.260 I'm a little anxious about this. 00:06:34.260 --> 00:06:38.489 There is tension and quite often that tension can provoke some curiosity, 00:06:38.489 --> 00:06:39.929 which is what you're asking about. 00:06:39.929 --> 00:06:44.130 So I remember we were doing a presentation about cybersecurity, and this vendor 00:06:44.130 --> 00:06:47.909 was saying, if you use us, we'll help you manage information, technology 00:06:47.909 --> 00:06:49.859 and OT, operational technology. 00:06:50.340 --> 00:06:55.500 And in the presentation they were saying, if in IT some of your systems get hacked, 00:06:55.559 --> 00:06:57.419 data gets stolen, there's a breach. 00:06:57.419 --> 00:06:58.590 People lose their jobs. 00:06:58.910 --> 00:07:02.990 OT if a physical object gets hacked, people can lose their lives 00:07:02.990

--> 00:07:07.160 because if you hack an oil rig for instance, people can really die. 00:07:07.460 --> 00:07:11.060 So we are just getting like really deep into this and even the slides 00:07:11.060 --> 00:07:13.880 are turning dark and you could see like a little cross with a little 00:07:13.880 --> 00:07:15.560 bit of blood dripping off of it. 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:19.070 Now you can like physically see this lean in motion. 00:07:19.070 --> 00:07:22.070 The brain is motivated to keep on going a little bit. 00:07:22.070 --> 00:07:25.850 So from a neuroscience perspective, I think I would equate this dimension of 00:07:25.850 --> 00:07:31.550 motivation and leaning into a system versus withdrawing as a sign of curiosity. 00:07:31.550 --> 00:07:33.350 Now tell me a little bit more. 00:07:33.350 --> 00:07:36.500 I'm willing to stay with you for the next moment over until 00:07:36.500 --> 00:07:37.880 you get me to that lower left. 00:07:37.880 --> 00:07:41.750 You're always just a click away for lower left, but a bit of tension 00:07:41.750 --> 00:07:43.130 and friction can help you there. 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:46.710 Matt Abrahams: So as we think about the stories we tell, the examples 00:07:46.710 --> 00:07:50.280 we use, the testimonials we provide, we should actually, I think, 00:07:50.280 --> 00:07:54.659 almost map them on your two by two matrix and see where do they fit. 00:07:54.659 --> 00:07:59.860 And as long as they are arousing in some way, and the valence isn't as important 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.965 and we can think about how we can drop those in and I assume we can't have too 00:08:03.965 --> 00:08:05.855 many back to back of all the same kind. 00:08:05.855 --> 00:08:07.325 'Cause it can become almost overwhelming. 00:08:07.385 --> 00:08:07.985 Carmen Simon: It's true. 00:08:07.985 --> 00:08:10.925 It can become overwhelming and you don't want people to be staying in 00:08:10.925 --> 00:08:14.705 that upper left for too long because then it is just really draining. 00:08:14.945 --> 00:08:18.215 But a combination of the three, so upper left, upper right, and 00:08:18.215 --> 00:08:19.745 lower right, those are really good. 00:08:20.015 --> 00:08:23.455 Every so often the brain will go into a slight state of boredom. 00:08:23.575 --> 00:08:27.215 We can't claim that all of a sudden just everything is going to be an epiphany. 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:31.070 Matt Abrahams: You argue that we often overdeliver on content, 00:08:31.070 --> 00:08:33.230 which creates cognitive overload. 00:08:33.530 --> 00:08:37.340 What are the key communication habits a person should break to reduce the 00:08:37.340 --> 00:08:40.280 load they put on their audience and ensure that their core message is 00:08:40.280 --> 00:08:42.350 not only received, but understood? 00:08:42.350 --> 00:08:43.775 So we say more than we need to it sounds like. 00:08:44.354 --> 00:08:47.954 Carmen Simon: Sometimes we say more than we need to,

and it's an intriguing concept 00:08:47.954 --> 00:08:50.745 to me because here's the good news for everybody, especially as the world is 00:08:50.895 --> 00:08:55.425 getting more complex, the brain actually synchronizes better with that which 00:08:55.425 --> 00:08:57.944 is complex than that which is simple. 00:08:58.245 --> 00:09:00.645 Where does complexity and overload come in? 00:09:00.734 --> 00:09:03.224 It's not really complexity that gets us in trouble. 00:09:03.255 --> 00:09:04.454 It's randomness. 00:09:04.780 --> 00:09:08.680 So really when we talk about overload, we're talking about some random bits and 00:09:08.680 --> 00:09:13.120 pieces that people go on, in and out, in and out, in and out without enabling 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:17.850 somebody else's brain to see some patterns to see how all of these, as difficult as 00:09:17.850 --> 00:09:20.190 they may be, components come together. 00:09:20.580 --> 00:09:24.240 So one practical technique, especially if we have technical people who like to geek 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:26.880 out for a moment, is related to fractals. 00:09:27.210 --> 00:09:31.380 So for those of you who may wonder what are fractals, there are these objects 00:09:31.380 --> 00:09:35.700 or even parts of our bodies have those properties, objects that have the same 00:09:35.760 --> 00:09:37.920 properties at any level of magnification. 00:09:37.920 --> 00:09:40.770 So for instance, if you picture a tree, you have the trunk, you have 00:09:40.770 --> 00:09:43.710 the branches, and if you go to the smallest of the smallest of the 00:09:43.710 --> 00:09:48.120 branch, that low branch has the same properties as the entire big tree. 00:09:48.329 --> 00:09:50.910 Or if you go to the grocery store, you see a head of cauliflower. 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:55.199 The entire head of cauliflower is composed of these tiny baby heads of 00:09:55.199 --> 00:09:58.949 cauliflower, and those baby heads have the same properties as the entire head. 00:09:58.949 --> 00:10:01.350 So it's cauliflower all the way down. 00:10:01.709 --> 00:10:04.980 So as a practical technique, think about all your content, anything 00:10:05.069 --> 00:10:08.520 that you want to share with an audience, and as complex or seemingly 00:10:08.520 --> 00:10:13.870 overloading as it may be, wonder what are just some core sets of properties? 00:10:13.870 --> 00:10:16.870 That's where would your 10% message to come in as well, so that your 00:10:16.870 --> 00:10:20.380 entire content is being perceived as cauliflower all the way down. 00:10:20.620 --> 00:10:24.370 Because if you have this core that never changes, then you can elaborate and 00:10:24.370 --> 00:10:28.329 you can add stories, and you can add details, you can add your analogies, all 00:10:28.329 --> 00:10:30.219 of those beautiful things you mentioned. 00:10:30.520 --> 00:10:33.939 But you won't feel overwhelming because you're coming back to the same core. 00:10:33.939

--> 00:10:36.910 You're coming back to the same short set of rules. 00:10:37.235 --> 00:10:40.775 Matt Abrahams: So have a clear through line that you can connect things to 00:10:40.775 --> 00:10:44.165 rather than, that's why when people go off on tangents, it can be so 00:10:44.165 --> 00:10:46.625 frustrating and difficult to stay focused. 00:10:47.015 --> 00:10:50.615 So we have to have a clear goal, clear direction, help our audience see the 00:10:50.615 --> 00:10:52.205 patterns of the things we're saying. 00:10:52.205 --> 00:10:54.155 Carmen Simon: See the patterns, and just come back home. 00:10:54.155 --> 00:10:58.295 So when we say control your 10%, come back to that 10% message every so 00:10:58.295 --> 00:11:01.775 often to say, yeah, we went over here and we went over here, we over here. 00:11:01.775 --> 00:11:06.005 But overall, everything just condenses down to this one handful of things. 00:11:06.630 --> 00:11:09.930 Matt Abrahams: One of the other things that strikes me that 90% does is even 00:11:09.930 --> 00:11:13.680 though you might not remember the content, you might remember the feeling. 00:11:13.860 --> 00:11:18.330 And so even if I only remember 10% of what you say, I might leave saying, 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:22.135 she was really on her game and competent, and that can help me as well. 00:11:22.964 --> 00:11:26.295 Carmen Simon: The strong emotions will definitely help in a competitive space. 00:11:26.535 --> 00:11:30.375 Challenge yourself to combine emotion with some verbatim phrases. 00:11:30.675 --> 00:11:34.785 You cannot afford to only operate on emotions as some, just because 00:11:34.785 --> 00:11:37.995 other companies will also have their messages and their emotions. 00:11:38.324 --> 00:11:40.814 So ideally it's your combination that makes it through. 00:11:41.475 --> 00:11:43.575 Matt Abrahams: I have seen your books. 00:11:43.665 --> 00:11:44.925 I've seen your book covers. 00:11:44.925 --> 00:11:47.175 I've seen presentations that you've done. 00:11:47.505 --> 00:11:50.595 Visuals play very strongly in what you do. 00:11:50.925 --> 00:11:55.425 Can you give us some best practices and advice when using visuals to 00:11:55.425 --> 00:11:56.650 help with memory and engagement? 00:11:57.410 --> 00:11:57.949 Carmen Simon: Yes. 00:11:57.949 --> 00:12:00.800 That is one of my favorite topics to talk about because with 00:12:00.800 --> 00:12:02.660 neuroscience we can debunk some myths. 00:12:02.839 --> 00:12:05.810 And I'm sure you've heard this many times before, same for our 00:12:05.810 --> 00:12:09.770 listeners, that some people are visual learners, some people are auditory 00:12:09.770 --> 00:12:11.270 learners, some are kinesthetic. 00:12:11.569 --> 00:12:15.469 I hope nobody ever repeats those sentences ever again because 00:12:15.469 --> 00:12:17.599 primarily we are the visual beings. 00:12:17.839 --> 00:12:21.500 60 to 70% of our body receptors, which is how we take in

the world, 00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:25.260 and we start perceiving things and building memories are visual. 00:12:25.500 --> 00:12:26.430 We have visual people. 00:12:26.610 --> 00:12:28.980 Assuming of course, you're visually able, even when you're 00:12:28.980 --> 00:12:30.600 not, you're still seeing inwards. 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:33.090 You have to take care of your visuals. 00:12:33.450 --> 00:12:36.480 You can do them by showing people some pictures or by doing what you 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:39.990 were recommending earlier, which I really like, enabling the brain to see 00:12:40.265 --> 00:12:42.485 inwards, like building mental images. 00:12:42.875 --> 00:12:44.975 So don't put so much pressure on yourselves, like suddenly you have 00:12:44.975 --> 00:12:48.365 to come up with some amazing graphics and you don't have a graphics degree. 00:12:48.425 --> 00:12:51.815 If you do have some sort of inclination towards the images, what 00:12:51.815 --> 00:12:56.735 I'm doing a lot of research on is cliché images and cliché phrases. 00:12:56.885 --> 00:13:01.675 I'm noticing that the brain, especially the global brain, I did a study on this, 00:13:01.885 --> 00:13:04.584 has some comfort with the written cliché. 00:13:05.245 --> 00:13:09.055 So for instance, if you say phrases like such and such is a game changer, 00:13:09.115 --> 00:13:13.944 or this is a win-win situation, or data-driven, anything these days, 00:13:14.245 --> 00:13:17.995 I was noticing that as I included people from the us, people from Asia, 00:13:17.995 --> 00:13:22.045 people from Europe, we have a certain amount of comfort with a cliché, it's 00:13:22.045 --> 00:13:24.084 almost like it's a universal language. 00:13:24.170 --> 00:13:25.250 People come home. 00:13:25.250 --> 00:13:26.060 It's like, I got it. 00:13:26.089 --> 00:13:27.380 As long as you don't overdo it. 00:13:27.530 --> 00:13:31.310 The clichés in that study, there are only 5% of the entire communication. 00:13:31.400 --> 00:13:35.930 However, the global brain doesn't have any energy for cliché images. 00:13:36.140 --> 00:13:37.010 And what are those? 00:13:37.010 --> 00:13:40.670 You wanna take a guess what's the most cliché image in business content? 00:13:40.880 --> 00:13:42.140 Matt Abrahams: The first thing that came to mind was like 00:13:42.140 --> 00:13:43.459 a sun rising or something. 00:13:43.459 --> 00:13:44.209 Carmen Simon: You're not far. 00:13:44.209 --> 00:13:46.520 So the mountain, climbing mountains, and especially 00:13:46.520 --> 00:13:48.380 usually at a sunrise or a sunset. 00:13:48.530 --> 00:13:52.045 And I have to say this, by the way, I was listening to this incredible keynote 00:13:52.045 --> 00:13:56.035 speaker and he was a mountaineer, and he said, visualizing business 00:13:56.035 --> 00:13:59.035 success by showing a business person on top of the mountain is like 00:13:59.035 --> 00:14:00.055 the worst thing that you can do. 00:14:00.385 -->

00:14:04.285 Not only is it cliché, but most accidents in mountaineering happen 00:14:04.285 --> 00:14:05.515 when you go down the mountain. 00:14:05.815 --> 00:14:09.295 So just to show that you've made it there at the top, you have made at 00:14:09.295 --> 00:14:12.895 the top, you make it when you come back down to the bottom unscathed. 00:14:12.975 --> 00:14:13.965 That's success. 00:14:13.965 --> 00:14:15.825 So removing the technicalities. 00:14:15.825 --> 00:14:19.515 Then if we talk about visuals, then we have to ask, how is it that we avoid the 00:14:19.525 --> 00:14:24.345 clichés, the mountain of it all, and the chess strategies and the iceberg metaphor. 00:14:24.555 --> 00:14:27.705 So here what we did something with the iceberg metaphor, because I was reflecting 00:14:27.705 --> 00:14:31.365 on that and I was thinking, you know, the iceberg metaphor has a good story in it. 00:14:31.370 --> 00:14:34.395 It tells us that at the top you see something small, but really 00:14:34.395 --> 00:14:35.835 what's important is underneath it. 00:14:36.075 --> 00:14:39.585 So I was challenging our designers to say, how would you visualize 00:14:39.760 --> 00:14:41.410 there is more to the story. 00:14:41.800 --> 00:14:44.170 So we had three versions in that presentation. 00:14:44.170 --> 00:14:48.550 One was you're seeing what would appear as a sharkfin on top of the water, but 00:14:48.550 --> 00:14:52.630 then when you really zoom in under the water, it is just a regular goldfish. 00:14:52.990 --> 00:14:56.590 And the other one, we were showing a person climbing a mountain that 00:14:56.590 --> 00:14:58.600 looks like it's covered in snow. 00:14:58.959 --> 00:15:01.510 Then on click, the whole thing rises, and that's actually 00:15:01.510 --> 00:15:03.040 the top of an ice cream cone. 00:15:03.219 --> 00:15:07.420 So because now you didn't expect that, you see there's more to the story and that 00:15:07.420 --> 00:15:09.939 unexpected piece was a little bit unusual. 00:15:09.939 --> 00:15:14.230 Or you take any kind of stone structure, let's just say Stonehenge, and on click, 00:15:14.230 --> 00:15:17.515 you raise it up and you see a few aliens right underneath there in the dirt. 00:15:18.130 --> 00:15:19.450 There's more to the story. 00:15:19.780 --> 00:15:21.040 Depends on where you wanna take it. 00:15:21.040 --> 00:15:23.980 But see, you can challenge yourself to say, look at a 00:15:23.980 --> 00:15:26.800 familiar visual and play off of it. 00:15:26.800 --> 00:15:29.320 Jolt the brain out of its habituation. 00:15:29.740 --> 00:15:31.780 Matt Abrahams: So visuals play in a very important role, and there are 00:15:31.780 --> 00:15:35.650 things we can do through visuals to stimulate interest and attention. 00:15:36.490 --> 00:15:37.870 Well, there you have it. 00:15:38.020 --> 00:15:42.220 Tips, tools and techniques to make your messages more memorable and engaging. 00:15:42.660 --> 00:15:45.930 I challenge everyone to apply Carmen's insights and advice 00:15:45.930 --> 00:15:48.360 into your upcoming communication. 00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:53.189 Thank you for joining us for this Quick Thinks episode of Think 00:15:53.189 --> 00:15:55.110 Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:15:55.500 --> 00:16:00.420 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:16:00.660 --> 00:16:02.130 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:16:02.310 --> 00:16:04.380 With thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:07.800 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:16:08.069 --> 00:16:09.930 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:16:10.395 --> 00:16:13.505 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:16:13.845 --> 00:16:17.715 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:16:17.715 --> 00:16:19.875 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:16:20.235 --> 00:16:24.195 Please also consider joining Think Fast Talk Smart's Learning Community 00:16:24.285 --> 00:16:25.315 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:16:27.165 --> 00:16:30.525 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, our 00:16:30.525 --> 00:16:32.505 AI coaches, and a book club. 00:16:32.775 --> 00:16:34.305 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning.