บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Ep 4. Self Belief and Breaking In. - Tolula Dada

pager, which I know is bang on, and I'm really proud of that. The episode one pilot is tipping over three pages, but I'm gonna try and nibble it back. it's gonna be a bit of a two-page splurge of where my characters go. I know the end point, and you know, sometimes you find things in the writing. So this is an exciting challenge. And I was telling a a head of development, a British friend and colleague about this six-page Bible, and she was like, Great, I love I think British commission commissioners would also love a six-page something as well. I think you know what, these things can be very long, but sometimes the truth is. How do you communicate your tone? It takes ages. I last night I read this article by the new showrunner of The Drop, the spin-off of Snowfall. And he was saying how, yeah, it took him about two years to find the tone. And that was such a freeing thing to read. Because Daniel: Mm. Tolula: I've been banging my head on the against the wall for like a few weeks trying to nail my tone. For someone to say, yeah, I've known for this series, I've known the story from the jump. It took me a minute to find my characters, and now I'm trying to wash it through with my tone because it does have sort of humor, but it's a thriller, but Daniel: Mm. Tolula: some of the character stuff is slightly ridiculous. And and it's really hard as writers. We spend so much time honing our scripts, and now we have to learn how to communicate our tone. We have to learn how to pitch and these and there's no training for this stuff. And so Daniel: No, no. Tolula: the few chances you have to do it, you're really just running and gunning, learning on the job, and that's not a nice feeling. It's very exposing. It's very vulnerable. Daniel: Yeah. And and trying to you can't just say it's funny but not funny and just enough. You have to s you you it's helpful Tolula: Yeah, yeah. And also Daniel: to say it but they need more. Tolula: And I don't like being pinned in. Sometimes I find stuff in the writing. Just let me write a script. Daniel: how do you find treatments generally? Do you I know some people that enjoy writing treatments and pages and some who don't? I I'm in that camp who don't, but I love I love throwing down a page because of what it could become, but even still Tolula: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel: the process of doing it. I think I like it 'cause it's short, you know. Tolula: Yeah. I think that on my own stuff, I quite like an outline. I quite like just splurging onto the page and knowing where I'm going. I really like having a roadmap. but when I'm working on someone else's show and they police what I'm writing, no, I don't love outlines because y I don't want to be told I'm wrong. Whereas Daniel: Yeah. Tolula: it's something that comes out of my own head, that's a different thing. That's me making sense of my own thoughts and processing. Daniel: Mm. Tolula: So it's it's a different process. It's a different process. Daniel: Right. yeah, when you when did you first think or become aware of the concept of a writer and decide that you wanted to become one? Tolula: I'll be honest with you. I think I have always been a writer of things. I have always kept diaries. I have always written when I was a kid, I used to write poems and used to dream that maybe they'd become songs. I really loved music. I wanted to like be like, well, it's weird to say now. I wanted when I was like 17, 18, I wanted to be Amy Winehouse. Now obviously I look upon that a little bit more, you know, in hindsight, we're all, slightly different view, but I really always used to write Yellate song lyrics and poetry and journaled religiously growing up. But I think that when I went to university and I took an English degree, I was so inspired by stories by people like I had these post-its of like Mary Shelley and Zadie Smith, and all these people had written their first novel in their tw 21. Daniel: Mm. Tolula: So I was like, yeah, I'm gonna write my first novel by 21. Then 21 came and went, and I was like, okay, 25. And then, actually when I graduated, I realized I don't know if I write enough novels. I don't know if I read enough novels to write one. But so I went to see as many free things as possible. And not just in London, in my hometown Mills and Keynes theatre, that's why it wasn't just London. And that was such an important part of my cultural diet at that time. And it was whilst hunting for free tickets at Hamster Theatre because I lived in Camden at the time. I came across this scheme, Hamster Heat and Light Company for young for young playwrights and players. And that was the first time it was we were mentored by James Graham. And I know, who was not James Graham then, but Daniel: Right. Tolula: he was just like, you know, a guy in skinny jeans. Had no a nice guy in skinny jeans who are apparently doing stuff, doing big things, but we didn't know it then. And he mentored us to write like a 12-minute play that was put on in a showcase, and it was the first time I'd seen my work performed. It was the first time I'd seen people respond to things I'd written. And even some of the actors, like one of the actors, this wonderful person who's still acting now, her name is Zainab Hassa, and she said to You know, I think you've got something here. And just that little bit of encouragement kept me going. I kept applying for scratch nights, I kept applying for competitions. I would religiously check that BBC Writers Room opportunities page for new things. I would schedule my social life. No one saw me. If there was like a end of January deadline or like end of the tax year or September deadlines, I was in my house writing. And yeah, so theatre was sort of the beginning of me writing scripts. And then Daniel: Was that to pursue as in you were thinking I wanna do T V or is it I wanna write for the stage or is it I wanna do both? Did you know then? Tolula: It's hard to say because I think I had so many, I was trying so many

things at that time. So I worked in TV. I was a BBC production trainee and I worked in documentaries, but I was trying to, I'd heard about this job being a script editor. So I was trying to jump the fence into drama and I was using all my short plays to tell them I understand story. Look at me, I am I can empathize with writers because I am one, my little scratch nights. And that got my foot in the door. I went from being a documentary researcher to being A story research on EastEnders, which at that time was my favourite TV show. Daniel: my god, that must have been so fun then. Tolula: It was, listen, you know what? Continuing drama is no joke. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. It was hard, it was very rigorous. But I also loved what I got because being part of the story team, I went to conference, I was in meetings, I saw how they storylined, and that influenced how I would plot out my plays. It taught me a lot about hooks and structure and you know whose story it is. So it was immensely valuable and from then on. Between playwriting and applying for script editing jobs and many years of applying being for things I wasn't qualified for that were already oversubscribed, I finally became a script editor. And I thought I was going to script edit for 10 years and then become a writer, like some of the Daniel: Wow. Yeah. Tolula: people who were on the writing team of EastEnders and shows that I knew. And people often said, Yeah, the best writers on the show used to be script editors. So I had that sort of in the back my head because you understand structure. But then I was really fortunate to get onto the full screenwriting program in twenty nineteen. And so I'd only script edited for about five or six years and then I was on that scheme and my last ever script editing job was a show called Strike Back. And let me tell you, the things that we went through, it was very easy to leave script editing and become a writer. Because I didn't know how hard it was to be a writer. I only knew that Daniel: Mm-hmm. Tolula: I only knew how hard production can be, how difficult, you know. Just script editing is so funny because they treat it like it's the brass ring, like it's the beal, like it's your, you know, it's the the the the ring to be the chosen one. But actually, when you get there, you're actually carrying the can for a lot of other people. It's very political. And that was part of what was interesting for me. That, you know, how to. Sell an idea that the producers gave you to your writer. How to you are very much a midwife to writer's ideas instead of the mother when you're the writer. And also, Daniel: Interesting. Tolula: I was working on a lot of producer-led shows, not authored shows. And again, the psychological dance of how can I make this? How can I sell this idea, this note to the writer? What version of this do they like? And yeah, it was really interesting. Daniel: Do you think you've taken any of those skills onto your writing as far as not just I know you're doing as far as, structuring and how to redraft and things, but when it comes to maybe sharing a note or even or even turning down a note or something, some of that, I wouldn't say it's manipulative, but it takes some some persuasive skills, Tolula: I think it's persuasive and I think sometimes it is a little manipulative, but sometimes you don't have time. I think that it has it has helped me immensely because I'm really good at understanding the note behind the note, but it also makes me a little judgmental of script editors. For example, I know what good and bad script editing is. I've done both, you know? I've also been subjected to both. I know that a good script editor has a plan, and so they prioritize the order they give you the notes. And so, and I know that a good script editor normally shouldn't take something away without offering you something in exchange. So when you say, yeah, we can't do that anymore, but you don't pitch me any ideas to replace it, it's not my show. I'm on a producer-led show. What can you give me instead? What if we cut if we don't have budget for this, what do we have budget for? And what just to bounce ideas. And those moments where you're like, I don't, I have two days to turn this around and I'm really stressed, it's so helpful to be given ideas and steers and suggestions and Daniel: Mm, mm. Tolula: so that there's less panic. So that you so to have someone in the boat with you. Daniel: and and during that time when you are trying to break in and become a professional writer, did you ever think Tolula: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I can't do it, I've had enough, I'm crazy, I'm gonna do something else? And how did you get through that moment? Tolula: No, but I'm Nigerian. I think self-belief is our superpower. I you know, I have I think to become a creative person you need to have slightly delusional levels of self-belief. I think Daniel: Mm. Tolula: I genuinely every competition I entered, I genuinely believed I was gonna win and and Daniel: That's amazing. Tolula: already had ideas what I was gonna do with the money. Daniel: wow, I love it. gosh. It's amazing. Tolula: I never made it as a playwright, but I learned a lot by that process. And because I've worked so much in TV, sometimes theatre people were telling me, this is too big, this is too complex, just make it simpler. But what was annoying me was I'm watching big plays. I'm watching plays like Enron and Chimerica at the National. And so you're asking Daniel: Mm-hmm. Tolula: me to write black box theatre, Two Handers, and I'm like, no, I don't want to. So it was it all worked out in the end. I think that what kept me going when I, because there were some low moments, I won't lie. There was a time, the biggest thing I was ever nominated for, I was nominated for the Alfred Fagan Award. And I yeah, I would been long-listed for many things, but I was shortlisted for this. And there was an award ceremony at the Dorfman Theatre,

and my whole family, God bless them, took a day off work to come to London and be and I bought a new outfit. I sat on the aisle. and I was so so I ha my heart was so full of hope. And I thought this is the thing that's gonna launch me into the next thing. And I didn't win. I lost to a very good play called Girls by Theresa Ococo. But I went home, I remember I didn't go straight home. I went to Herman the German on embankment and sat there and had a hot dog feeling sorry for myself. And I was just Daniel: And was that the best or worst hot dog you've ever had? Tolula: It was a great hot dog at a very low moment in my life. But then I took that time to really scoop myself up and just be like, This is part of the climb. And I think that there was still, I always had irons in the fire. I'm gonna apply for this, I'm gonna apply for the things that felt big to me at that time. I'm gonna get on this BBC writer's room scheme. I'm gonna apply for full screenwriting again. I was also thinking about film school all the time. I was looking at NFTS and I was trying to build a portfolio to have a few different samples to submit, even though I did not have the money for film school and had no idea how I going to pay for it, and was not at a point in my life where the thought of not working for two years to do an MA and live in London was remotely feasible. Again, delusional self-belief, but In building a portfolio and starting new work, it just kept me going. So even if I wasn't working directly as a writer and had a career, maybe I can go to film school, maybe I'll get on this competition, maybe I'll win this award. Because I don't know if it's still the case, but often in British TV, people have one hot play and they get a TV commission and they get to make show TV. Whereas, like people can be writing on casualty or Death in Paradise or whatever for many, many years and never get their own originals away. So there maybe there is a kind of literary hierarchy or just perceptions, but it's interesting being on the other side of the fence now because there is a rigour to writing television that is very there's a different rhythm to theatre. Theatre, maybe you'll have it in six months, maybe you'll have more time, less time. TV. This thing needs to be ready in twelve weeks. It is go time. And if you don't have it ready, someone will overwrite you, they'll take your episode away, give it to someone else. We don't wanna you don't wanna know how this sausage is made, but it always gets made. You know? Daniel: it's a speed in train that's moving before you even get on. And when you do get Tolula: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Daniel: on, you better be ready for that speed. Yeah. Tolula: yeah, stay on, hold on for for life. Daniel: Yeah. but then you come out and you're just like, gosh, I've learned so much. I or you're Tolula: Yeah. Daniel: like, Wow, I did that. Like I remember having to do a redraft and I had I had four days. Tolula: Mm. Daniel: And I was like, I thought

I'd misheard. And then I did it and I was like, I can. Tolula: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't like that. Yeah. Being a baby writer is really they really do a number on us because there are shows that tell you that unreasonable things are reasonable. I once worked on a Daniel: Right. Yeah. Tolula: show where they're like, Yeah, can you give us this outline in two days? I'm like, but I don't you've given me a page. Like, I don't even have a hook to this episode. And then you learn, that's what they do here. That's what that's the gig. That's what they're paying you for. And like, Daniel: Yeah. Tolula: yeah, can you write me this first draft in a week? And I'm like, I can, but if you want it good you should give me two gosh. Daniel: Yeah. and then of all those things, or even any anything in in your career, do you have a particular moment that you think, that that's my big break? Or did it, you know, maybe a moment that felt like it was the big break at the time, or maybe another moment that you look back and think, no, actually the break was then. What's your big break Tolula: I think full sc Daniel: moment? Tolula: I think full screen for screenwriting was a big break for me because it introduced me to the industry. It I wrote a pilot script that was that got a lot of attention and got me a lot of meetings, helped me get an agent. And it was a script that, you know, will never probably never make it onto TV, but it it opened a lot of doors for me. And I had time and I had the support of, you know, writing a new sp spec script now as a writer with between jobs and family and life is actually quite challenging. But the having the service of a script editor and an assistant script editor to support you was actually so invaluable and having the structure of deadlines and things, it was really great. And then you go to the networking thing and everyone has read your script, or people at least pretended, I don't know. And they're excited to meet you. And that was good because that is not what it's always like. Daniel: Yeah, I've heard really good things about for screenwriting. I've never I think I don't think I I probably I must have applied. but I've never met Philip. But I've heard it's a really good scheme. I know a few people that have come through with that scheme. Tolula: I think it's a really great opportunity for supporting new talent. And I'm so glad that it exists. Not just because I've benefited from it, but actually if you look at the track record of people who've come through that scheme, Philip and his team, they have picked a lot of people who've gone into have incredibly successful careers. Or even just people who maybe not even people who created their own things, but people who have worked steadily. And I think that, you know, we should mm have a very broad definition of what success is as a writer. Is it Daniel: Mm-hmm. Tolula: being a showrunner, is it making your own shows, or is it just having a career, Daniel: Yeah, because it's so funny you say that because I remember when trying to break in, I think, no no no, success is just having a career, you know, being able to write and pay bills. But then sometimes you're writing on things and you're like, This don't feel like success. Like, yeah, great, I'm I'm writing, I'm being paid to be on this job, but at the same time I don't feel creatively or sofully fulfilled right now. I don't feel good about this job. Tolula: Yeah, for sure. Daniel: Of everything you've written, what should I watch or read if I want to understand you as a writer? Tolula: My specs, I think they just tell the true story of who I am. And I think it's a moment that I've I've it's something I've been thinking about a lot over the last 12, 18 months. That my credits don't tell the full story of who I am as a writer. My specs do. And actually it's motivated me to write a new spec to give a different t side to my voice. I have such broad taste. I like so many things, whether it's character driven comedy dramas, whether it's period, whether it's action and genre st shows. I need to have a variety of things to do a Give a different sense of the dip various things that I like and I'm interested to and can do well. so yeah, like I found myself working on a really broad variety of genre shows, police procedurals, thrillers, book adaptations, a lot of first series, finding sort of the DNA of a show and building it out from the ground up, but also coming onto sort of known franchises like Gangs of London and even Grantchester. That's been great too, to sort of learn to adopt. The show the voice of an existing show. And that's those are the easier jobs, if easy is the word. Because all writing is hard. But I think that that doesn't tell the full story of who I am as a writer. I have found myself writing about murders and procedurals and crime and thriller and whatnot, but I think I write my current passion and fascination is write telling epic female-led stories. And I'm a firm believer in women's rights and women's wrongs, and I love telling the story of women behaving badly. I love writing sympathy for the devil. I love whether Daniel: Mm. Tolula: they're rebels, royals, rogues, scammers, all of it. I love it. And I'm so excited to tell those stories. And those aren't opportunities and everything. Now, sometimes my opportunity to do that is on a boise macho show where they're looking for a female voice, and that is fine. I also know you have to care carefully, even when you are cast in that role, to make sure that you're a creator and not a cop. But I Daniel: Mm. Tolula: feel like I also am not afraid to tell them. I remember on I'm on a show at the moment where they decided to, they made, you know, the consiglieri character to the gangster a woman. They they wrote this character and said, let's make her a woman. And then the next draft I read of the outline, she was dead. I'm like, don't think I did not notice. That the minute Daniel: Ha ha. Tolula: you made her a

woman, she ends up being killed in the next episode. Let's keep a I'm not counting, but I'm aware of how many women we're killing in this series. And Daniel: Wow, yeah. Tolula: no one's trying to be a bad guy. Like these biases are sometimes unconscious. And I'm so much more vocal on the gender stuff than the race stuff for sure. Because I really don't want to be a race cop ever. Daniel: Interesting. No. So with a new idea, even now you said you're working on something and you said earlier that You you enjoy the planning structure, the the outlining stage of things. But let's say you have a new idea. Would you briefly talk us through how you go from idea to draft one of your script? Tolula: It depends if they're paying me first and foremost, if I'm writing Daniel: Sure. Tolula: it myself, or if it's an idea I've sold. And right now the marketplace is very tough. It I remember my first few years, you know, in the boom years, the expansion years, the streamer years, the TV gold rush. There was not one idea that I put out that I sent to my agent that did not get sold. Even if there wasn't a feeding friend, even if only one person wanted it, I could sell. Now I can't, I may send you a one or two pager, but I've already thought out all eight, I've already written the Bible. My prepping, my preparation for that meeting is eight episodes in my head, and I go in there and c have to confidently pitch it. So I spend a lot of time at my desk, writing my one pager, getting the story down. I can never be entirely sure. Sometimes the idea or the concept comes first, then I have to find the characters and the story. Sometimes I have the story up front and I have to find the other aspects. But I have to, it's so easy to despair and feel overwhelmed, but also to remember that it's a blessing to just have a wealth of ideas. And there are so few mountaintop moments in this career. You have to love process and embrace process. And process sometimes means going over every single line, reading it aloud and making sure every line pops and counts and earns its place. Which I love and I hate. I think I hate a blank page more. I hate a blank page more. But yeah, Daniel: Mm-hmm. Tolula: so I start my process maybe with just splurging onto the page, then refining, refining, refining, getting down to one or two pages, send it to my age and get some notes. They usually have quite minor notes, they send it back. I address those notes, I send it back out, it goes out to the world, I go for those meetings, prepare for those meetings, pitch my bum off with all eight episodes of everything I think at this stage. Have it in my head ready to answer their questions. I also really love, even before that, when I just have a vague idea of a territory, to go and meet smart people and just pit riff and just bounce ideas with smart people. And that is when you've got a few people interested in an idea, helps me decide who can I work with, who can help me, who has great ideas, you know, who

can I build with? Because that's what we're talking about. When you do sell an idea, you are. building the house to a little bit together from their notes. And I really, really love that collaboration, then going away and sort of making sure it still has my identity. And then should you be so lucky to either they self-fund a script, I write, they say, I'll write an outline. Sometimes because I have the fear of a blank page, I overwrite my outlines. I write almost like a scene by scene. And I just again get everything down and then reorganized and just structure and know where I'm going. I love having that roadmap so that when I open first final draft to write that first draft, I can copy and paste my outline or my scene by scene and then keep building out and you're just rewriting rather than constantly generating. Daniel: And are you doing that in order, as in when you are in final draft, are you then writing the first scene or you are you going with the scene that just calls you that day? Tolula: I was trying to write the most recent new spec I was writing, I was trying to write it chronologically, but then I listened to an episode of Script Notes where Erin Sorkin was right, just write the thing you're most excited to write. And I'm like, Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do. So that's what I'm gonna do. Daniel: Ha ha ha. Tolula: And I think it's true. I think I never used to be that way. When I wrote plays, I remember just going to what scene have I got in my head down pat? Rather than sitting there and despairing and just cursor blinking at you. panicking, I don't know what this is, I don't know what I was thinking, and trying to fix it. But also Daniel: Yeah. Tolula: I've also noticed a pattern where even when I'm writing scripts, you know, on series writing jobs, I spend a lot of time on my first 12 pages, because that's what it has to do a lot of things. And then I write three get three quarters in and I'm like, I don't know what's what's happening here. And then I have to skip to the end and then I can go back and fill in that third quarter. So I know where I'm gonna land, and also so that I know that my ending has had close to as much time and refining as my first act. Daniel: And then so what about getting your agent and networking? at what stage did you get representation and what's your thoughts on or what's your strategy or feelings about networking generally? Tolula: I think that networking, it sounds like a dirty word. I think there are two kinds of networking. There's networking vertically and there's networking laterally. And I think that there are all kinds of jobs that will come your way. You you are not always in the room where someone says your name. So I think that there are jobs that have come my way because someone I've worked with or I'm friends with has said, we're looking for writers. Hey, how about this person? And they've said my name and that has got me in somewhere. That's amazing. And I definitely think that I would say

one of the golden rules of this career is protect your relationships, not in a cynical way, but sometimes when I have a great idea, I don't go straight to my agent. I just hit up people I like. Every January I just hit up a few people I really like working with. Maybe we made something a few years ago, it didn't make it. But let's try again because I just think you're dope and smart and let's go again. And Honestly, it makes the process that can be really challenging and very lonely, so much more fulfilling and rich and fun. And then in terms of networking vertically, I think that at the beginning of my career, when I did full screen writing, and everyone says, you must be inundated with offers from agents. Actually, no one was checking for me. No one. Like other people were getting agents off the scheme, and I was not. And so I had to use my network. And so I had, because I'd been a script editor. script editors don't say script editors, assistants don't say assistants. All the people I'd met on my way when I was a baby, when I was an aspiring writer, when I was a researcher, whatever, when I was on Eastenders, some of those people are commissioners now. And not, and so like at that time, my flatmate was ahead of development. And so I said to her, Hey, I really need an agent, and I this is what I'm looking for in an agent. Who do you think I should try and hit up? Can you recommend me? Because I don't think agents, the agent I currently have, I tried once or twice set to cold email them and then got no response. And then when I a couple of people that I'd asked, my four screenwriting script editor and my flatmate who was working in development recommended me to people, that was when I got a response. And I think the rule with agents is they show up when there's money to be made. When you're Daniel: Mm-hmm. Tolula: at that point where there's momentum, where you're sellable. And a recommendation just y I just think is the best way. It's it's an important relationship. And and I also think that sometimes you evolve as a creative, you're in different phases. Like the beginning of my career, I was so blessed to have this great agent who could get my word read by a really wide pool of companies. And I went and met everyone and it was super easy because I lived in London, so I just hop the tube. Whereas like when you're mid-level, And you're a bit more Googlable, people might have seen some things that you've done. It's a slightly different game, and you might know yourself and your and your needs and your process differently and be looking for something specific from your team. Maybe Daniel: Yeah. Tolula: you know, you know what? I suck at writing down one pages, but get me in the room and I can verbally pitch the thing, and I'm at a stage where there's people at a stage where they I don't think some of the people in the Green Light Club even have to write out treatments anymore. There's someone in house that will write it for them, you know? Daniel:

I I I I believe Tolula: Must be nice. Daniel: so also. As a theory, obviously, never been confirmed or denied, but yeah. Tolula: Yeah. Daniel: so can we talk about notes a bit? how do you like receiving Tolula: Sure. Daniel: notes, whether it's your own idea like a spec you've got or your or your own development or if it's Tolula: Mm-hmm. Daniel: working on someone else's show. Tolula: I like receiving notes. I love it when they send me, say, some written notes in an email or a document, and then we follow up and have a conversation. Then I can s start problem solving and come in, or we can discuss. it's not like how it sounds on the page. It's like this. That's great. That's kind of optimal for me. but equally, I also like notes to be, I like People to be empathetically honest. Sometimes people are being too nice and they're not saying the thing. I, because I have a script editing background, I hear what is said, I hear what is not said. Sometimes I have the baggage of being a script editor and w I hear what you didn't say and then I freak out. And I remember one time I was a series writing on a show and they sent me, we they booked in the meeting for notes, but they didn't send me anything. And I'm like, my God, I'm gonna get fired. my god, this is bad. And it was fine, they just hadn't had a minute to do it. But I had bought the baggage of this is what happens when people are gonna get, gonna get got. but it was and it had nothing to worry about. But I was sweating through my sheets for two days. Daniel: and it's might be difficult, but do you remember the best or worst note you've ever received? Tolula: God. I remember once there was a note that was a bit f that was a bit brutally honest, like too too direct, and I sort of had to sort of respond and be like, ouch. I can't Daniel: Yeah. Tolula: tell you specifically what it was, but I you know, and I think the person heard it and you know, they responded, which was nice. I okay. Inviting you into the circle of trust. I was in a notes meeting with some other writers and we'd all read each other's pictures for this thing we'll do developing separate projects and we're each giving each other feedback and I think that I Someone was asking me, they were phrasing their questions. They were phrasing their notes as questions. But I wasn't feeling like this is a constructive criticism. Like this feels incoherent. That was the note behind the note. But they were saying, why have you said it here? And why are they running a campsite? And why and I was just feeling picked apart. But because my first instinct is to not be an angry black woman, even when there is a righteous reason to be angry. I was silently fuming, fuming, Daniel: Mm. Tolula: fuming, cussing him up and down in my head. But kept on smiling, you know, and actually I had the right to say, hey, you know what? Like I'm feeling a bit picked on here. What are you really trying to say? I had the right to say that, you know. And sometimes Daniel:

Yeah. Yeah. Tolula: I think I don't speak up for myself enough because I'm just trying to keep everything calm and professional and being too, Daniel: Mm. Tolula: you know, at my own expense. Daniel: Yeah. That's that's that's horrible that you have to carry that, you know, while while trying to work. Tolula: Yeah. I'm getting better at it. I'm getting better at it. And I think the The post-DEI backlash is really interesting because for a number of years, diversifying your workforce was a good thing. And then, and I think it was, it was the training wheels, quotas were like the training wheels of diverse thought, hey, I've got this list of writers or directors, there are no women on it, there are no people of color, why not? To to to examine our own biases. It was, you know, and then streamers came in with their American manners. And America, you know, they you can say in America, 30% of our population is black, 45% is Latino. And then to be like, so to bring in that audience, it is beneficial to try to speak to those values and those identities. But in Britain, sometimes sometimes it became from encouraging us to just think more broadly instead of just calling our five mates over and over for every job. It Daniel: Yeah. Tolula: became a Well, we need a black voice. Well, we need a female voice. And that's when sometimes I'd go for jobs and I was, you know, grateful to be working as a baby writer, but also sometimes feeling like I've been given the diversity spot. They had one diversity spot on this show, and I had to hung against out all the other, you know, LGBT, QIA, global majority people to get this one spot. And now they're asking me to be the cop, to be like to police their values and actually some or or maybe specifically to pitch diverse stories, and I don't do that. I think I'll speak holistically. I think occasionally I'll speak, but in my experience, this was not like this. But and sometimes I, yeah, like I resist that sort of categorization because that's not the fullness of my humanity and my creativity. But also I had an experience once. Where I was on a series and I know that they had a black lead, and I think an American black lead who asked, who had probably asked, are there any people who look like me in that writer's room? So there was not one but two, and also not one woman but two. So I wasn't just like the token. I there was an obligatory second, and that's great. That's great. But on the first day of the writer's room, One of the showrunners went around the room and introduced everyone. And everyone else was introduced by their achievements, what they'd done before. this is so and so. They've done a lot of procedural. This person just had a show on, BBC One, blah, blah, blah. This is Talula, she's black and from Europe. And it was just the most humiliating thing ever. and I'm like, okay, I'm grateful to be here, grateful to being paid, but now I'm like, have you even read my work? And it's so Daniel: Mm, mm. Tolula: undermining and I'll never forget it. And I hope they hear this podcast episode and feel terrible because they should. But sometimes that reflects Daniel: Yeah. Tolula: the mindset. He said the quiet bit out loud. And I'm not saying that you and I've also been in shows where the showrunners decide where I didn't do enough in that interview to get the job. And that this person said, without meaning to be unkind, they said, well I'm not just gonna hire you just to have like a diverse room. I'm gonna hire people who can give me something. And on that occasion, I hadn't delivered, which I can accept. But it was also horrible to hear that thinking. And so now we're in this space where people are, it has hardened into something ugly and disrespectful and objectifying that I don't like. And I never thought I'd get to this place where I'd be like, don't be You're moving your feet, but you're not really dancing. You're not really valuing what these people can this different, this diversity of thought and experience can bring to your project. You know? And I think that Daniel: Yeah. Tolula: there's a real difference between meaningful representation and superficial, performative representation. So I'm Daniel: Mm. Tolula: very mindful of that going in and I think where I have the choice between projects, I'm very mindful of like who am I working with here? You know, what are their values? Are we aligned? Daniel: Hmm. Yeah, 'cause you don't want to just sit in a room and have someone referring to you every five minutes. Is this okay? Is this okay to say that? Is it and you Tolula: Well yeah, looking at me. And it doesn't happen like that. But it doesn't happen like that. But I remember on the show where I was introduced by my race and my geography, they definitely there was a question about like the casting of the love interest for the black actor and like what different things mean. And I knew that I was being looked at to weigh in and I kept quiet. I just listened. And I was kinda laughing to myself, but they probably thought I was laughing at them. But I was laughing and I was just amused Daniel: Yeah. Tolula: because I was just like, Yeah, you can't, you know, every which way you're damned, you know. Daniel: Mm. Tolula: but I sort of just said, what which is what I believe, that I think diverse casting certainly is an invitation to people who never or rarely see themselves on screen. And so you're inviting, if this is an action show, you've already got a certain audience who are looking for this. But if this person says, Hey, the wife is played by this actress and you know, they're East Asian like me, or they I've not seen them in something like this, that brings a different audience. And I just think people need to be thinking. how can we bring more people in? Who is not here and how can we bring them in? That is should be part of the calculation, perhaps, rather than well, we've got to do this so that we don't look like one so I once someone once said,

Well, you know, we had to put like we had to make this character mixed race so we don't so it doesn't look a lot look like a Nazi youth poster. And I'm just like, I don't wanna work with you. My memoirs are gonna be spicy. Daniel: Gosh, I can't wait. I can't wait. so what speaking to aspiring writers or people trying to break Tolula: Mm. Daniel: in or people breaking in, do you do you hear a common thing that they maybe get wrong that they think is important or that they think they need to be doing, or is there a mistake that you've maybe heard them making a lot? Tolula: I I'm not sure if this is what I have heard or observed, because I think that the landscape, the industry that I came into is very different now. There was expansion when I came in, and now there's, you know, the great retrenchment and shrinking of opportunities, especially for newer talent. But I think the advice that I give to anyone, including myself, is to not wait for permission. I think that technology has made it possible, has democratized. creative opportunities and I love the story of like, you know, directors like Kane Parsons and who's the other guy he did backrooms? Curry Barker, Curry Baker, who have come in, they've come from YouTube. They were just making stuff on Daniel: Yeah. Tolula: what is it, Blender and like just shooting stuff on their phones, grabbing some of their friends. I need to be more like that. I need to be more like, let me just make a web series or let me just make a short film and just find people who want to do the same stuff and go for it. Because I think also again, loving process, just keep making stuff and not need the and not needing a commission or a senior person to, you know, obviously, yes, it's hard to get funding, but what you see people doing on TikTok. w in the most lo fi way, can still find an audience, can still, Daniel: Yeah. yeah. Tolula: create new voices and opportunities. And I think that we just need to go for it. Daniel: Yeah, I yeah, obviously I mean I love a scripted drama, I'm watching TV all the time, but sometimes I'm just watching shorts and it could be a clip, you know, a comedy clip and I'm laughing for half an hour later and that's something someone did Tolula: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: at home. yeah, and it's funny, like I mean I I kinda got my start in in like I guess what what do you call web series. And now I'm going Tolula: Mm. Daniel: back to it, now I'm like, I wanna do a web series again, which is funny, 'cause at the time you first doing it back then you think I can't wait to not have to need to do this and now I'm same as you, just feeling excited about creation, Tolula: Mm. Daniel: and having the power to just make it myself. So let's say you're trying to break in and you've got one hour a day to break into the industry. What do you do? Tolula: Keep writing, keep creating things, keep entering competitions and throwing things at the wall. Daniel: What's one piece of screenwriting advice that you think is just

a load of rubbish? Tolula: not a short answer. Daniel: No worries. Tolula: I recently went to this writer's mosaic event about called Stay in Your Lane because for the longest time the advice given to writers is write what you know. And they were arguing that actually that balkanizes writing and people can gay people can only write gay stories and black people you know and people can't cross and you know look at how diverse this world is people have so many different Heritages and ethnicities and aspects of themselves that of course they have a point of view. So why are we keeping everyone in these rigid lanes? And I was very confronted by that because sometimes as a female writer, as a black writer, it's hard to see someone who doesn't have that lived experience tell stories that speak to my lived experience. But then someone said this Tony Morrison quote that actually writers shouldn't write, and paraphrasing, writers shouldn't write what they know, they should write what they don't know. And they should try to find ways to make the ordinary extraordinary. And Daniel: Mm. Tolula: you know, and sometimes that involves research and talking to people and going into places and and you know, subcultures that you know nothing about to find truths that you can communicate and put your stamp on. And that really challenged me. And I think it's such an interesting provocation. So rather than limiting myself and also to be told, allowing other people to limit me by just writing about things within my field of lived experience, I want my creative world and my creativity to feel big and be an open field. And so Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Tolula: I would say maybe when you're starting out, you write what you know, but actually I think there's something really quite exciting about the possibility of writing what you don't know. Daniel: Beautiful. Tolula: Okay. Daniel: what's one skill that every professional writer needs to have that has nothing to do with writing? Tolula: Think that we shouldn't just be making art, we should be consuming it. We should be good writers, should be reading. I love reading other people's scripts. I love reading, yeah, I love reading screenplays of movies and TV shows that I've loved. I love going to art galleries, I love going to talks and discussions about Bauhaus or architecture or photography and just it may not have any direct impact on what I'm doing, but just feeding my mind as much human experience and things from this world as possible. Feeding your mind, I'd say. Daniel: Do you have any thoughts on AI? Tolula: I have many thoughts on AI and I think that I don't think AI can write better than a good writer. I think you can write faster, but I don't think you can write better. And I think AI hasn't and I think that there was a period where there wasn't a lot of work around and I drank the Kool-Aid on AI won't take your job, but a writer who can use AI can take your job. And I definitely have a fear of aging out of technology. So

I learned how to use AI. And I think that it has coming out the other side of that, I think it's a great research tool. I feel I don't love AI slop. I despair about the amount of the environmental impact of it, how much energy and water it consumes. I'm very concerned about that, and that definitely makes me lean out and and I don't want to opt out of my own critical thinking as well. So I and I think that I think it's also there's sometimes there's this witch hunt about AI. If, for example, on the Brutalist they said, they used AI to improve the sound of the Hungarian translation. And it leaves a stain. It's like a scarlet letter on your project. And I don't agree with that. But I am also concerned about job loss and what that does to the creative industry. So I don't have a solid for or against view on AI, but I believe in creative rigor and creative integrity. And I I don't know where else, what else. But I also think the way that AI writes in very precise ways makes me want to be even more playful with words and to re to write things in a way that Only this person could have written only Tolula could have written that. Daniel: So outside of your future T V series that I can't wait to consume when it is greenlit and made, that comes out and I think gosh, only you could have written that. What is the greatest ever T V show or film ever written? Tolula: So many, so many. A show I watched years ago, I remember watching Heroes, that Tim Kring series Heroes, and I remember feeling this sh how this show makes me feel, I want to make things that feel this epic, this exciting, this can't wait to watch the next episode. I have so many all-time faves for so many different reasons. Game of Thrones, even with that final series, was so epic, was so true about human nature, was so exciting and compelling. It's up there. Friday Night Lights. I know nothing about American football, but I care very, very deeply about the struggles of these American football players in West Texas. You know? what's that one? Sons of Anarchy. It's basically Hamlet on motorcycles and I love it. It's Shakespearean, it's epic, it's exciting, it's fun. But also insecure. Insecure is like, one of the great loves of my creative life. It's a show that It's a show about black people being regular and I'm like, yeah, it just it it I can't fully articulate how much that show means to me and what that generation of black creators mean to me as well. And I mean, yeah, can go on and on and on just naming names, but yeah. Daniel: I was I loved Insecure was amazing, but I I loved Awkward Black Girl on YouTube, that series she made. It was just Tolula: yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel: it was a moment of like what is this? And it was just it was so good. Like like I'd never seen before. And just the fact that it was on YouTube, you know, and someone had just produced it themselves Tolula: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: and it was just like, yeah. Tolula: But even Issa, reading again about different people's journeys, Issa developed off the back of Misadventure of Northern Black Girl. She was developing an ABC version with Shondeland and it didn't work. And then HBO heard about her, and then she redid a version, you know, that became insecure. And so sometimes it's not how long, but how well, you know, you have to go through certain different chapters to find the right version. But I would also want to name like Abbott Elementary is a GOAT show. It I think it's a one of the greatest comedies of all time. I I think Parks and Wreck is a GOAT show. And what I was was I watching recently that Industry, like seasons three and four of industry, my god, touching heaven or hell, you know, based on the material. Incredible. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I'm a I I say right now there's two current shows that are my favourites and industry's one of them. Tolula: Mm. Daniel: I absolutely I love that show. which is hard as well because then you're a writer and you're like you love it so much and you're just like, I wanna be on it as well. Tolula: Yeah, yeah. It's so good, it's so good. Daniel: So okay, so if we can go back now. So we've gone through your hero's journey of training and stepping on and then your career starting and learning. but if we go back to when, I don't know, maybe just around the before screenwriting and you're Tolula: Mm-hmm. Daniel: actively trying to break in as a writer, but you're also juggling being a script editor. Is there a piece of advice that you could give yourself back then? What would it be? No knowing knowing now what you know, what advice would you give yourself? Tolula: Mmm, I'm not sure. I I really believe that the past makes you who you are, and I think for all the mistakes I've made, all the clangers I've dropped in conversation, the wrong things I've said and done, not nothing crazy, but I can just own that journey and the lessons I've learned. I suppose Maybe some of the best just general advice, not just for career but life, that I have learned over the years. The older I get feels more true. Save the best part of yourself for your friends. Sometimes you go into writers' rooms and you think you've been chosen because they love my sparkling personality or whatever it is, but people will love and loathe you for the exact same reason. And actually, I can say less. I can Just be there and do my job. I don't have to tap dance and entertain and whatever and perform. I it's enough for me to just come here and do my job and then go home and spill tea and gist and kiki with people who know I'm not crazy for laughing at this thing. Don't Daniel: Mm-hmm. Tolula: worry about the judgment. Daniel: this is amazing. Thanks so much. Tolula: You're very welcome. This was fun. Daniel: Get back to your pages everyone, be well, be good and remember there will be notes.