บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Ep 3. Building a Career Without Burning Out - Abi Hynes

at the cinema. I've heard that one's good. Abi Hynes: Yeah, me too. saw, did you see the new Resident Evil? Daniel: I haven't I didn't get around to seeing it, but I w I'd love the trailer. Abi Hynes: You know what, I thought it was so fun and I was in between, I was doing one of these days that I do in London where I'm kind of scheduled with meetings and I had a gap in the middle of the afternoon so I just went to the cinema in Leicester Square, it was just me and a bunch of like students between lectures and honestly we were all laughing out loud and I've got a real soft spot for a horror film that can make me laugh as well as jump and it was just so much fun, it was just great, it's not kind Daniel: that's cool. Abi Hynes: of... It deliberately, I think, wasn't reinventing anything. It was just telling a great story, doing it Daniel: Right. Yeah. Abi Hynes: really well, having a lot of fun with it. And yeah, Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: I love them in the cinema too. Daniel: I love those moments where it's just one of those you you don't know anyone there, but then there's a feeling Abi Hynes: Yeah. Daniel: of togetherness when you're all like feeling it like that together. cool. Abi Hynes: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Daniel: Was it horror that got you into wanting to become a writer? Or was it other things? What was it you saw? Abi Hynes: Not into wanting to become a writer full stop because I was a playwright and a fiction writer before I even thought about writing for screen. So I mean, to wanting to be a writer, mean, this is like, it's so precocious, but I don't really ever remember not being a writer. Like writing little stories was just something that I did. the age of four or five that but but thinking about it as a job and thinking about screenwriting in particular I mean yeah it probably did it probably came more out of tv shows like Buffy like Being Human I mean you wouldn't call them horror but they're like playing with the supernatural and sort of playing with the edges of that genre aren't they and certainly they Daniel: Hm. Yeah. Abi Hynes: were they were quite a big influence on me as a sort of teen and young adult. But I really didn't think despite... kind of thought I wanted to be an actor, I did a drama degree and then I thought I wanted to be a director for a while. This was all in theatre at this point. I really very... I just hadn't really... We had some film modules at uni but the syllabus was like all white men pretty much and the no TV was taught on it at all. So it just didn't occur to me. I stayed in the theatre strand of stuff and it just didn't really occur to me. I didn't know anyone that did that job. I just didn't think about it. And it was only when I got on the Channel 4 screenwriting course, which I got onto with a play script, it was really only doing that course that made me think like, hang on, I really love this. I've always loved Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: TV in particular, TV drama. And I feel really at home in this medium. I love this. And it all kind of... went from there. Daniel: wow. So I I didn't know so they accepted they accepted plays as submissions for the full screenwriter. Yeah. Yeah. Abi Hynes: Yeah I'm pretty sure they still do plays, radio plays, it's got to be drama and it's got to be what they call full length right so at least 45 minutes I think that counts as. But I applied for that scheme at least three times I think it was and I think two out of the those three times including the time I got on yeah they were theatre scripts that I was sending because that's what I was writing. Daniel: Right. And by that point had you had play produced, had you had seen things on stage? Where were you at in your writing career? Abi Hynes: I was still really early. had, straight out of uni, I'd started a little theatre company, tried to run a little theatre company for a while, realised it's incredibly hard. And basically, if you're trying to run the thing and go for funding, you don't have any time to do any writing because you're desperately trying to stay afloat. Daniel: Right. Yeah. Abi Hynes: I had a great time. I learnt a lot. I met some great people, but it was not going to be... didn't want to be a producer and therefore that wasn't going to be sustainable. I think I had had my first couple of plays professionally commissioned Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: so I'd started working I think with LGBT History Month at that point so I've worked quite a few times now with them. They have a strand called their Festival Theatre which is run by a good friend of mine called Stephen Hornby and they commission playwrights to work with historical advisors to find forgotten pieces of queer history and bring it to life on stage. So I think I'd done one or two of those, which were like, I mean, we're talking small, small fry commissions Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: for kind of little regional tours of small theaters, that sort of level. So yeah, really just started to make any money from it. And that's when I got onto the Channel 4 scheme. Daniel: And what was that like? What was the what's the training? Well I'm 'cause I know people that have done it. I I never got on. What's the what's the training button? Abi Hynes: Yeah I always say to people just keep going if you're breaking in and you haven't done a scheme yet it is a brilliant one I can't really speak of it highly enough so Philip Shelley that runs it for a start I think I got on kind of cumulatively the very first year I applied I didn't even get longlisted I didn't get an interview but I did get a nice email from Phil going look your script shows promise would love to see future applications from you keep going thing and that was just enough hope you know when you're right at the beginning of your career and you don't really know if you're good enough or if you're ever going to be good enough but like a little bit of hope like that meant an awful lot at that stage so so I did so I kept going I wrote my

first it was it was a film script but it was kind of intended to be like a made for tv film I was still sort of thinking in tv terms and I'd had a meeting with a BBC producer who'd liked it and that hadn't gone anywhere but I sent that another year and got another email from Phil being like again not quite this year but like keep going and then yeah finally got on and it's brilliant so they they take you all the way through they they assume that you're a total novice which I really was I mean some of the people in my year were definitely more experienced or had like worked in the industry maybe they've been actors maybe they've been script editors I didn't know anything. I was so green. And they took us all the way through from these kind of intensive weekends with kind of speakers telling you everything from like how does a script get commissioned in TV? How do writers get paid? Like all of those basics. And then they pair you with a script editor and a shadow script editor and you develop an idea all the way from concept to like second draft I think you do over the space of a year. They do a showcase an actors read through at the end and really the most important thing is they do this big networking party where they send your script out to like everyone in the industry. I don't know if you've ever been to one of those Channel 4 parties. You still get invited back every year so maybe every other year I still go and it is the noisiest room and it is full Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: of like everyone you've ever met in TV. Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: So it's amazing, you feel like it's your wedding or something Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: when you're a writer that's on it that year. And Phil, he's very good, he goes around, he introduces you to people, he gets you going in conversations. And in my case, I didn't have an agent at that point and he helped me find my agent. And all of that absolutely launched my career. I wouldn't have a TV writing career if it wasn't for that scheme. Daniel: Wow, that that that must be such a confidence boost as well. to you go through the process of writing and then entering the room and there's the industries in the room, and you're getting to meet them all Abi Hynes: Yeah. Yeah. Daniel: and speak to them and it's not just going in cold, you're going in with something they ain't aware of. wow, that's amazing. And then you got your agent via that, via intro. Abi Hynes: Yeah, yeah exactly. So everyone kept saying to me, don't worry you'll get an agent by the end of this course, everybody does. And obviously like that sort of advice, like it did turn out to be true but at the time you're just thinking well obviously I'm going to be the one person in the history of this course that is not going to get, you know, Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Abi Hynes: I'll be the story that will get told like the one person that didn't Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: find one. So Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: I was in a bit of a panic and But they really do help. Obviously your scripts go out to lots of agents and I met one agent that someone had introduced me to that I really didn't like and I called, I called Philip and I called my script editor in a flap being like, I really didn't like him. I really don't think this is a fit, but like it might be the only offer I ever get. Do I have to say yes? And they both went like, no, hold your nerve. We will help. And very shortly after that, I don't think they even had to introduce me. My brilliant agent now, Jesse, got in touch off the back of the Channel 4 list. And we met and immediately it was just like, yeah, this is perfect. We're a great fit. yeah, yeah. Daniel: And how did things change from well first of all, how did that feel? And sec and secondly, how did how did things change from going from not having an agent to having an agent? Abi Hynes: So I was really lucky and I was so green that I didn't even know how unusual this is but when I graduated from the Channel 4 course, Channel 4 picked up the next idea that I was pitching so like the the next idea I started talking about they pretty immediately took it into development so in that sense and because of the Channel 4 course I was already starting to have some meetings and things so things had started and probably would have got started even without an agent. But the massive difference was I didn't know what to do with any of that. I didn't really know what any of it meant. I didn't know what to ask for. I didn't know what development looks like. I didn't know how to sell myself or pitch in meetings really. And Jessie was really able to steer me through all of that. I mean, think lots of things aligned. She is just brilliant. but also she was building her list at the same time as I was breaking into the industry. we kind of were, you know, she had more time to do things like when I said, I live in Manchester and when I said, look, okay, I can make these two or three days in London next month. And she would reach out and she would make me an itinerary of meetings. So I would have four or five meetings a day that she had booked for me. And I would go from meeting to meeting on like a schedule that someone else had created. with introductions that I would have not absolutely not been able to make on my own. So that was incredible. And yeah, I do think, I think in some ways getting, I mean, I have two agents now because I have Jessie for all things drama and I now have a fiction agent, which is a relatively new development. Getting that first agent felt, I think that's the biggest step. That was the thing that felt the most legitimizing. out of almost anything else, possibly, until I've just done Gangs of London, possibly that one is now the second one. going from no agent to I have an agent felt like Daniel: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Abi Hynes: the biggest stamp of approval. I don't know if you felt the same, but it felt like this thing that was like, this Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: is real. Daniel: Yeah.

Well yeah, I it definitely was for me. But then the problem was it took a while for me to find my feet with Abi Hynes: Mmm. Daniel: the agent and I didn't get I didn't book my first like I s I had some things optioned, but I didn't get my first staff job for like maybe four or five years later. Abi Hynes: Yeah. Daniel: so you know it peaked like, exciting, exciting, and then it kind of like went down a bit and I was like, What's going on? And you know So yeah, then for me it would have been that first one. But it's such a major moment 'cause we all just want one so badly, don't we? But I also Abi Hynes: Yeah. Daniel: experienced that same thing of having the odd meeting and being like, I'm not really vibing with this one, but I should take it, right? 'Cause no one else will want me, you know. Had that same chat, yeah. Abi Hynes: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And I'm glad. I'm really glad I didn't take the first offer. And, you know, it's, yeah, I'm also just really glad that I do a job in this industry where it's a thing to have agents. Like I talk to like producers, for instance, who just have to navigate every job entirely on their own and... Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Abi Hynes: Yeah, I just feel enormously grateful that if I ever get stuck or not sure or there's a difficult conversation I don't want to have, I have someone in my corner and that's just, yeah, I feel Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Abi Hynes: lucky in that regard. Daniel: You mentioned something earlier about the the different things she took you through, including learning about the general meetings, pitching yourself or pitching your ideas in meetings. Abi Hynes: Mmm. Daniel: what was like for you learning that? And could you talk through what that process is actually? Because literally the podcast is for writers trying to learn those sort of things, like breaking Abi Hynes: Yeah, yeah definitely. Yeah brilliant. Daniel: in and the pitching. We'd love to hear a bit about that. Abi Hynes: Yeah, so think it was a combination of the stuff I've learned about how they work was probably a combination of the various schemes I've done and I know you and I were talking earlier about how kind of we've both done a lot of schemes. So you know kind of over the course of those. Daniel: Yeah, even even the same one once. Abi Hynes: sort of throughout those I sort of learned it partly through my agent I learned it and partly just from doing it and like getting it wrong sometimes and figuring out that's what they actually meant by that or I should have said this or whatever. So Yeah these general meetings which are for anyone who doesn't know they are basically any meeting that isn't a specific interview or pitch like for a specific job right so so anything that's more of a get to know you get to know your writing usually they've read a sample of your work in advance I don't really like taking meetings where they haven't and I do get a little bit frustrated if I get in a room and realize that they haven't read anything because I just think well what's the point? you might read this Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Abi Hynes: later and not like it and then what have we all done this for? But anyway they've normally read something and off the back of that said they want to meet you and sometimes they might have like a room or a job in mind that they might bring up if they think you're right for it as you're chatting but most of the time you're selling yourself and you're selling your ideas and usually it's an opportunity to pitch and it's a cliche but people say it's like a first date and it kind of is. Like networking and pitching in this industry is an awful lot like dating. You know show up, there's a bit of small talk, you're basically just trying to figure out if you have the same sort of taste. You're usually talking about film or TV that you've seen, liked, not liked, getting a sense if you have any common ground and if you like each other which sounds a bit like pathetic but is so important isn't it? Like actually... Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: It's not going to work if you don't get on. So, Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: so all of that. then usually I ask, so can you tell me a bit about your indie, your company, a bit about your development slate and what you are and aren't looking for? Because I would always rather tailor my pitching to whatever they're in the market for. I don't think there's a lot of point, you know, I write quite a lot of crime. have a lot of meetings where. I wanna pitch a detective drama but if they say we've currently got four of those, you know, they're just not, you Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Abi Hynes: know, it's a bit of a waste of everybody's time or if they go like we would never make anything that's XYZ, we would never make a comedy drama, we would never make a half hour, we would, you know, whatever, we would never make historical, whatever it is, then, you know, you can kind of pick and choose. I usually try and have at least three things up my sleeve to pitch if it feels right. I this is, I'm talking really about if it's the first time you've met them. I don't know how you sort of do it but like I find things get a lot more casual once you've built that relationship, maybe once you've already worked with them. Daniel: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Abi Hynes: You know sometimes that is just a catch-up and you might start spitballing ideas together or they might go we're thinking about optioning a book like this what do you think? You your conversations Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: get a bit more kind of loose and Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: free-flowing. But when you're meeting them for the first time, still do what I always did, which is kind of what you're looking for. And then I have a rule that I've had since day one, which is I make myself pitch. Unless it's like, like Daniel: yeah. Abi Hynes: I once met a company who only make, they own one of the like major music label catalogs. So they only make musician biopics, which are the one

thing I can't stand and would never do. Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: I just hate them, they're not for me. musician biopics or like, you know, let's do a rom-com to the soundtrack of the Backstreet Boys, which to be fair sounds really fun. I'm just not that writer. Like, if there's not a dead Daniel: Mm, right. Yeah. Abi Hynes: body in it, it's probably not gonna work for me. So that's the only meeting, I think, where I've been like, you know what, just, lovely to meet you, but I don't think I've got anything to pitch you. Daniel: Right. Yeah. Abi Hynes: But if there's an opening, if I've got something remotely appropriate to pitch, I make myself do it most of all because even if they don't take that idea, it's like a test of that chemistry, I think, to see if Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: you can pass an idea around a little bit in conversation, to sort of show that I'm someone who does regularly generate ideas and that I'm good at doing that, and to keep my hand in because... Like a lot of writers I find pitching scary and if I leave it too long I get rusty and yeah just much better to keep on that treadmill I find. Daniel: And not that I'm asking you to pitch right now, but could you explain Abi Hynes: god. Daniel: just how that would appear like not you don't have to just pitch something? Abi Hynes: Yeah. Daniel: I just mean what is what is a could you describe what a pitch sounds like in for you, especially in a Abi Hynes: Yeah. Daniel: general meeting like where I'm assuming you don't have much time? Abi Hynes: Yeah exactly you're on Daniel: And yeah. Abi Hynes: you're probably looking at 45 minutes to an hour before they want you to get off the call or leave the cafe. So yeah you don't have to be relatively speedy and I learned that the hard way don't leave it until it's five to the hour to start pitching because by that point their time is up and they've run out of patience if you're gonna pitch you you want to get on it sooner than that. So I nearly always use the same tricks which are things like if I'm remotely, if it's a thing I've pitched loads, I'll jump straight in and I'll kind of do it. I'd love to tell you about Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: something I'm really excited about. So I've been working on this horror film and the big idea is, and I'll give the kind of log line a little bit about why I'm so excited about it. I'll try and give like a at the story engine because I find, because I mostly do TV, that's the big question you get. all the time right is like is there going to be enough story to sustain however Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: many episodes or a returnable series or whatever it is so i'll do and then if they're sounding and looking keen then obviously i'll go into more detail and if they've glazed over then i go can i try you on another one if i'm at all nervous about pitching i do like I tell you what, I'd love to tell you about something. I haven't pitched this very much. you, you know, will Daniel: Mm, mm. Abi Hynes: you be my, my

dummy? Will you let me like try this out on you? And I'll do a bit, I'll do a bit of that. I'll sort of, it's not necessarily good advice. It's just the thing that makes me feel confident enough to have a stab, Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: even if I'm not feeling like I've got a pitch that I've done a few times and it's feeling particularly slick. Daniel: Right, right. So it's like giving them a bit waiting to see the reaction before deciding Abi Hynes: Yeah. Daniel: whether you're gonna go a bit deeper. But if not, then maybe moving on to the next one. Abi Hynes: Exactly. And often I don't tend to talk for very long. I'll talk for maximum five minutes and beyond that I just always think like if they want to ask questions and keep the conversation going then great and the conversation will Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: flow but kind of you know they'll ask the things they want to ask. I much prefer to give a brief headline pitch and then if they sound interested I'll say can I follow up, I send you a document and I will usually have, mean completely depends on the project but anything from one to ten pages on something and Daniel: Okay. Abi Hynes: I prefer to follow up on paper personally rather than a really in-depth verbal Daniel: Hmm. Abi Hynes: pitch. Daniel: So that's interesting because you're doing that all yourself. that's that's I guess you're you're not you're developing an idea, you're not selling it and then working on it. You're you're working on your character story and premise and as a document maybe as well. And then sending it. Abi Hynes: Yeah, generally speaking, generally speaking I am and that's a preference I think because because Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: I like to feel like I've got something that's detailed enough for me to believe in it before I start Daniel: Right. Abi Hynes: trying to bring other people on board. Having said that I've had some lovely experiences last year or the year before I worked with a couple of companies that said we'd been trying to find something together I kept pitching them things. weren't quite finding it and in the end both of them said at a similar sort of time, hey look we've got a little bit of development budget just come we'll pay you bit of development money and we'll come up with something together and Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: I really enjoyed that in both of those cases but I knew both those companies by then and I sort of knew who I was working with and I Daniel: Right. Yeah. Abi Hynes: think I'd be obviously like you get you always go into development with a new person or a new company like not having worked with them before but But yeah, if I know them, I'm happy to pitch with less if you see what I mean. Whereas if it's a new Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: company, I tend to pitch with something a bit more worked up. Even if it's gonna change, which it almost certainly is by the time everyone gets their hands on it in development, right? But I like to have something Daniel: yeah. Abi Hynes: to start with. Daniel: So then when you do have that idea, that initial kernel when you've you're developing, could you talk through a bit of what that process is like for you? How where do you start? Where does it grow? is it Abi Hynes: Yeah. Daniel: character, is it premise? And then what's your process of developing that? And then also the script as well. what's your Abi Hynes: Yeah. Daniel: script writing process like? Abi Hynes: I always find this so interesting and I would love to hear yours as well. So what I do and it always baffles me to think like probably no two writers do it exactly the same right but yeah Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: so what I do is I'll have an idea which it's probably it's probably 50-50 premise or character comes first yeah probably 50-50 like something will come into my head and it's either a character that I think are this sort of person I can sort of see them I can imagine how they would speak can imagine how they would behave and then I start thinking what kind of world and what kind of story would I put them in or the other half of the time it's like yeah I really want to talk about like this idea or this theme or this world yeah like there's a set up right and I guess that's like Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Abi Hynes: plotier but either way I do the same thing the first thing I do, you ever seen, Celine Sciamma has this amazing, I think it's like a BAFTA guru lecture or screenwriting lecture, and she talks about desired scenes. So I've stolen this entirely from her, I can claim no credit, but I write a list of all the things that are exciting me about this idea before I've done any Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: kind of formal structuring. deliberate story manufacturing, character development, anything like that. I just write down everything I can think of and some of that's scrappy bits of lines of dialogue. Sometimes it's like images, sometimes it's ideas for scenes. Quite often with me it's like set pieces. I'm like, right, Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: the funeral and the rain or whatever. So I, and I do that until I run out of steam. Basically I do that for like a few days where I'm just enjoying. the idea and seeing what else it can generate and get me excited about. And then at that point when I've got just a load of stuff, like a load of sand in the sandpit, I do the 10 questions which are taught in all sorts of screenwriting courses, but you know, it's like whose story is it? What do they want? What do they need? You know, what the internal and external obstacles like the really, really basic 10 questions. And I make myself answer that for the protagonist. if it's more of a two-hander then I might do that twice for each character and maybe I'll do it for the antagonist and by that point the character will have generated quite a lot of story. So if I figured out that what they want is to make their business a global success and what they need is to be able to fully love the people in their lives and realize that external

validation is not the only thing. then already I'm digging into, what kind of, what kind of backstory does a person like that have? And I'll have done some work on that and I'll start thinking, well, how does that person behave? And therefore what kinds of stories Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: are going to come out of this? So I have this big list of, I just literally call it things that could happen. And I think I do that to take the pressure off any of it being like definitely going in the script. It's just like stuff that could Daniel: Right, right. Yeah. Abi Hynes: like story, story menu to choose from, right? And I write that for a while. And then by that point, I'm probably starting to get ready. Again, I've just got, by this point, I've just got an even bigger document of an even bigger list of stuff. I've got Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: stuff I'm excited about. I've got story ideas. I've got a good sense of my main character and maybe a couple of others. And then at that point, I'm probably ready. I do a bit of thinking about themes, so I think about... I call it a controlling idea or a super objective. don't know if you use either of those, what, what's the question? What's the thing about? So Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: a project I did recently that the super objective was, was don't cherish old bruises. So it was all about people that needed to sort of let go of past wrongs or hurts or injuries in order to free themselves in the future. so well, yeah, all of that work. And by that point, I'm probably ready to use save the cat. And I use Save the Cat for everything, not just for TV and film scripts. I used it when I wrote my first novel, use it for radio plays, I use it for everything. Daniel: cool. Abi Hynes: And I use it flexibly, I break the rules if they're not serving me and I don't stick to the page counts and sometimes I just go, well, I'm gonna flip that or whatever, but I really like it as a very practical scaffolding. So. Yeah, and then I do a really detailed, I am certainly not, I'm a planner, not a panzer. So Daniel: Okay. Abi Hynes: I have never in my life sat down to just start writing a script. The thought makes me feel a bit sick. So I have the final step before I start writing, and I know this sounds like a long old process, but because it is, I do a really detailed beat sheet. So Daniel: Okay. Abi Hynes: I have every scene and everything that happens in every scene. I've written that before, I've written a word of dialogue and then by the time I write the script it's a beautiful process. It's the thing that all that hard work was building up to and it makes it all worth it. And I sit on my laptop and I open Final Draft and it's like I get to press play in my head and I get to watch the movie or watch the pilot episode because from there Daniel: Wow. Amazing. Abi Hynes: it can flow because I've done all the hard thinking before I do that. Daniel: And then from there, from page one, do you have deadlines or do you give yourself a

deadline or is there an average of how long it would take to write? Abi Hynes: If I'm just writing for myself, you mean, if I'm writing a Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: script on spec. I mean, it just massively depends what life is allowing. And I try not to be, I try not to, I try to be kind to myself about that because Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: like, like an awful lot of writers, have to do other jobs in the mix to pay my mortgage. have, you know, I, life is, life is busy and full and Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: I'm grateful for that. So. So I'm not sure is the answer how long it usually takes me. It very much depends on what my schedule is like. Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: I try and by myself like a retreat if I can, like a long weekend or something, particularly Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: towards the end of the first draft where I can just think about that and nothing else because I find if too many intrusions of normal life are getting in the way, I lose focus or like, yeah, like if I can... If I can find a little bit of time where I can spend as many days as possible, focused on that. But to be honest, that's only ever three or four. I don't have the kind of life that allows me the only time that's ever happened was I managed to get furlough from my day job at the start of the pandemic and I wrote a script. I'd planned it all completely. I wrote the first draft of the script in two weeks. So I guess that's my measure. Like if I was, if Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: I was able to do it full time, two Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: weeks. I did my Gangs of London episode in 12 days, which might be one of my greatest achievements, because Daniel: Wow. Abi Hynes: I didn't know I could do it that fast. yeah. Daniel: Yeah. It's funny what we can achieve, isn't it, when there is a a big pressure on our shoulders. Like saying no, no, you need to you need it by here. This is the date, it needs to be done. Abi Hynes: Yeah absolutely. Just when the sheer adrenaline hits and you're like my Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: god I could lift a car right now. Daniel: Ha ha ha. no, I think we have like similar methods. I I will say I I did try in my earlier years to like pant some things just to like figure out, just to try and be a bit rock and roll about it, you know. And Abi Hynes: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: you know, it was some stuff worked out and you know come to the second or third draft and you realise no, I need a bit more structure in this. but you'd I I was able to discover some exciting things about like character more so because I was just like comfortably sitting there. Abi Hynes: totally. Daniel: having characters talk, Abi Hynes: And I think, I really do think, you know, this is the process that I use now. I definitely did try, particularly like writing plays and stuff early on in my career. I honed my dialogue, definitely by just sort of having a stab. You know, I didn't Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: even learn any of these structural techniques Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: until quite a bit after that. So yeah, I was absolutely just sort of trying and seeing what sticks and you're so right. bits of it work and sometimes they have this really like slightly wild quality to them that I think can be really exciting. It's just that yeah now that I have a toolkit I know that my best work comes out of really applying those tools and Daniel: Yeah. Mm. Abi Hynes: building something even though I can completely see for some writers the temptation to get stuck in before spending all those days or weeks prepping. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: But for me, just, know it's worth it. It's like building Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: the foundations before you built the house. Daniel: and then so let's say you've got to that point, you've pitched, they like it. you're working with that company. Have you ever found yourself like do you have you know, you now that you have a network, I guess, you know you know people you like to go back to, you know people that are keen to work with again. I'd love to hear a bit about networking. I mean, I guess this you know, isn't you When you have an agent, networking is a bit of a it's a cheat mode, isn't it? Because you can just ask. But I guess it's maybe networking or managing your career or keeping your network close or what's your like process of maintaining your network or building a new one? Abi Hynes: Yeah, I should say in case this already hasn't come across, I'm like deeply un-chill about every aspect of my career. Like I'm a massive control freak and I like to have a plan and I'm quite ordered in the way that I do things. So absolutely like the actual process of meeting and working with people is organic and like when the chemistry is right and you find the execs that you love working with and like I'm working with an amazing company called Conqueror at the moment who I can name because I only have glowing things to say about them but like you know every script notes meeting every development meeting with them is just a joy because their notes are so good it feels very natural to be on the same page no one's trying to pull the project in a direction that I don't like if anything they're always kind of just opening doors for me is what it feels like and going like hey did you know this was here? And I'm like no that's amazing let's go there. So that is the beautiful organic bit of the process. Everything else I do is like deeply structured so I have an enormous spreadsheet and I keep track of all my relationships in the industry on it. It is at this point absolutely huge. I always say, I teach some screenwriting and I always say to my students like you'll feel such a dick when you first start this spreadsheet. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: because you'll be like, I've had two meetings ever. Of course I remember who these people are. This was really big deal to me. I am never going to forget that we talked about that they're really looking for grounded horror or that they really want the next sci-fi thriller. But

obviously you start having a lot of meetings. I probably average two a week, something like that. And you can't possibly keep that in your brain. So yeah, I keep a big spreadsheet. I keep records of when I've met people, what we talked about, headlines of what they said they're looking for. I keep a record of what I've sent them and what they've said about that. So, you know, so that I don't accidentally like send them something that they already saw six months ago. And yeah, of course, like my agent is a big part of that. She makes a lot of those introductions. They'll either come entirely from her or someone will approach her or I will ask like you were saying, you know, I've just seen this great show, would love to meet the company that made that, can you introduce me? That sort of thing. But yeah, I keep a lot of notes. And the ones I really like, the ones that either I've worked with and loved working with, or ones that we just really hit it off and it felt like we were a good match taste-wise, I will go back and back back to. And there's plenty now that I have the kind of relationship where I will... They've said, we'll just send us anything you're working on. We'd always love to see it, even if it's not obviously for them. And that's just a really lovely thing to have nurtured. even more than, obviously, even more than the companies themselves, it's the individual people, because they move around so much, don't they? mean, that was a learning curve to be like. Daniel: Cos, yeah. Yeah. Abi Hynes: wow, this exec who I think is brilliant has brought on my project and now we're developing it and god now they've left and someone who doesn't really like it. Yeah, I'll pray for Daniel: Halfway through development. Yeah. Abi Hynes: it, exactly. So yeah, like keeping in touch with individuals and something that people told me when I first started in this industry that it took a long time to see the truth of is that if you like nurture those relationships... the people you really like will also rise in their careers and they will take you with them. So there are plenty of people now that I met when they were kind of development assistant or script editor that are now heads of development or exec producers. They have budgets, they have shows they can bring me onto. that's because, you know, we've been meeting every 12 months to two years, Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Abi Hynes: you know, right back from since I started. And sometimes we've worked together and sometimes we've always wanted to but never had the chance yet. I think that is a really lovely thing as well is like, if you really get on, the moment will come. I do believe that. Daniel: Definitely. It's it's funny, isn't it? I've had that time where I don't know, I've got on really well with someone, but we just haven't found the project and we've but we've still kept in touch. And like you Abi Hynes: Yeah. Yeah. Daniel: said, it's it could just be a coffee a year, you know, but you still feel like an

email here and there and a coffee once a year. And then they end up somewhere else and they're like, This Abi Hynes: Sallie. Daniel: is the place where we can do the thing that we love to do, you know, when they've moved on. So that's so cool. Yeah. Abi Hynes: Absolutely, absolutely that and yeah and I do quite a lot of you know ideally about once a year I'll check in and I'll either send them something new that I'm working on or I'll just say like I'm gonna being up in Manchester has its benefits because it means I sometimes get to do the like you know what I'm gonna be in London I've just Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: done it like I'll be in London this October I've got these two days free how about a coffee while I'm in town and you know it's it's a really nice opportunity to catch up with people and yeah, and pitch them things face to face. Daniel: has there been a moment where things got difficult, things got a bit tough to take or difficult job or moment, something is there a moment that you could you don't have to share going to detail, just just love to hear about a time in which because breaking in is breaking in and having a career, but there's it's such a career of ups and downs and if there's anything you could like share about the lows without needing to give too much detail, it'd be really helpful. Abi Hynes: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So like one moment that was really hard was, I can't remember what year it would have been, maybe 2023, 2024 or something like that. I'd been doing pretty, like felt like I was doing pretty well. I'd had some really nice winds, I'd had a write for radio as well and I'd had a really lovely off the back of something else I'd done for audible. I'd been invited to pitch for a big adaptation of Anne of Green Gables, which I'd then got. done this big job. was literally like it was narrated by Sandra it started Catherine O'Hara. It was just, it was a beautiful job to work on. It was gorgeous. So I'd had that, I'd like dropped some hours of day jobby things that I'd been doing because writing felt like it was going well. I had loads in development as well. I think at one point I had like seven or eight. active projects in development which was like a lot for me. So it was all feeling really good and then this was around the time that the industry just sort of collapsed and Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: all of a sudden like rooms that would have been available just weren't because much bigger named writers were understandably taking work there. I did several writers rooms that didn't lead to scripts like I did the casualty room, did the Waterloo Road room but neither of them had space. mean I'm grateful, I was grateful because I learnt a lot in those rooms and I'm glad they invited me but obviously you hope that there's going to be a script at the end of it Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Abi Hynes: and they didn't and all the development sort of dried up because stuff went out and just died. On submission to commissioners who were all, you know a couple of them were particularly heartbreaking because one got really close with the BBC. And then there was a weird silence. And then they came back with a totally different answer, which must have been like, you know, we don't see the whole picture, do we? But I think something about the commissioning brief internally for them must have changed. Nobody's fault, it happens. And there was another one as well. It was like particularly heartbreaking because we really, we were getting great feedback on it. It was a horror TV show that I really wanted to do as a proper like passion project. And we were hearing things like, I think it was Disney who said, we really like this, it's great. We're literally only commissioning two shows out of the UK this year and like one of them is Sally Wainwright. You know, so you just go like, Daniel: wow. Yeah. Abi Hynes: I don't think, I mean, it's heartbreaking in its own way if you feel like your work isn't good enough, but I was feeling like some of my work could have been good enough if this was five years ago, but now they're just, Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: you know, the rungs of the ladder that are supposed to be here are dissolving underneath me. So I had about Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: a year, I think, of really feeling like this is gruelling. Like pitching all the time and being told no is gruelling. Doing rounds and rounds of development that don't lead to even script commissions is soul destroying. And however great the process of development is, you are doing it because you want to write that script. And if you do it for me, if you don't ever get that reward. I just started to question my place in this industry and just whether I'd finally reached the end of my resilience. I think a lot of us are still here because we're very thick-skinned and because we have built up so much resilience and I always prided myself on that but that was the moment where I thought, I think at the very least I've got to take a break and actually I did this round of meetings in London. where I was just starting to say that to execs. I was meeting people who are like my closest kind of collaborators in the industry and I was, they were sort of saying, what else have you got? And I was kind of going, I need a break from doing that. Like if you've got something, like, you know, Daniel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Abi Hynes: if you can permission me to do an adaptation or if you can bring me into a room, I would love that. But I don't think I can keep like dredging ideas out of my soul in this Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: climate. without any more belief that they're gonna happen. just, I like, I don't think I can, I think I need a minute. And it, and like it, you know, it was literally, it was in a few weeks of doing that, that I got the job on Gangs of London. And, and that is an annoying end to that story because that's sheer luck. But also we all know that this is an industry that is built like half on luck and half on talent

and half on hard work. So like that's Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Abi Hynes: the... But I really think if that job hadn't come in when it did, I would have needed a break at that point. I was burnt out from trying to like be an ideas machine Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: without feeling like there was space for any of those ideas to go further. Daniel: So did did you take a little time off though before that came? Did you say there was a short, brief Abi Hynes: Yeah, like maybe a few months, maybe a month or two. And Daniel: Amazing. Yeah. Abi Hynes: I did stuff like, you know, I took a job teaching screenwriting at a film school that has turned out to be something that I love and I'm so glad I did that. And if I'd known how fast Gangs was coming around the corner, like I probably wouldn't have done, but that really worked out for the best. Much as it was like hard work doing both at the same time, I'm really glad that happened. So good things can come out of taking a Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: step back and taking a breath when you need to. And just the truth of it was, I was starting to not do my best work. I was starting to develop things really cynically. And I think I've come back going, I'm going to develop a bit less and I'm only going to work on stuff that I really love and believe in because the odds of anything getting made are so small. If you don't love it, what's the point? Daniel: Yeah, it can be really easy to just kinda be a yes machine or an ideas Abi Hynes: Yeah. Daniel: machine. carrot dangling that happens and the potential of what it could be, but then we just give so much. I think we've we went through a similar thing. You and I. And yeah, yeah. so so I hear you. it it's so like like I love working, I love developing, but there was a few times recently where something didn't go and then I'm being told it, you know, it was shared and then it was a no from the commissioners and then I know it comes from a great place of okay, so let's continue working. What else do you have? But I was just just it was like a hit in the chest too many times of it was a no here, but what else could you it's like I've just spent two years with all of you developing different things and now you want some more and it was just so yeah, I kind of took that same stance of let's dial it back a touch and maybe be a bit more considerate in what I do develop. so yeah, it's a journey. Abi Hynes: It is a journey and I'm sure I'll keep sort of adjusting the balance of how I do Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: things as my career progresses. think that kind of each season it is a bit different, isn't it? But at the moment I feel like if you have a project that is already greenlit or you have a room that is already good to go, like I will absolutely, I'm good at rolling my sleeves up and I will just get in and get going and I'll get the Daniel: Mm. Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: job done. But if it's speculative, if you're doing it for development money, which is not much, and if you're doing it on

this very small little hope that it's actually going to get made, those are the projects where I go, I've got to love it to do that kind of labour because probably it's not going to happen. And Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: there's only so many times you can break your heart, I think. Daniel: Yeah. so just quickly if we go back on notes, you know, as far as getting Abi Hynes: Mmm. Daniel: notes when you're in development, whether it's a page or a script, is there a way that you prefer to receive notes? Do you say that to development the development team beforehand or do you kind of see how they do things? And have you come to find that you've got a preferred way of doing it, receiving them? Abi Hynes: It's a really interesting question because you've made me realise, I don't know, that I knew that asking for notes in a particular way was an option, which sounds ridiculous. Obviously I should have thought about that. Well, what do you do? What do you ask for? Daniel: no. Maybe it's just something I kind of do and I I like I like to read and I like to chat about it. I don't I don't Abi Hynes: Yeah. Daniel: wanna I don't wanna just show up and just be told. I mean I will if we have to, if I'm on a show and you know, but Abi Hynes: Yeah, okay, yeah. Daniel: I I like to be sent something so I can get kind of the broad strokes and then discuss it either on a Zoom or in person. for some reason just Just being told the notes up front just don't sit with me. I if if I can be honest, I think it's because I I process information better when I read it as opposed to being told it. for some reason. Yeah. Abi Hynes: no, that makes loads of sense. That makes loads of sense and I'm the same. I would imagine quite a lot of writers are the same. Like Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: I explain myself better on paper and I think I digest better on paper as well. Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: I've never thought to ask for that, to be honest. But what I do do and what I've got very good at is if notes are being delivered verbally first. I mean, most people I've worked with have been very good at like someone is taking notes and will follow up in writing, even if you're kind of getting the notes. in the room Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: and what I have got much better at is I don't react to that many of the notes in that meeting. if something is, sometimes it's really easy and they're just going I think you've tied yourself in a knot here and actually these three scenes could just be this one scene couldn't they and you just immediately go yeah they could thank you that's really helpful like you know you Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: don't really need a back and forth on something like that. If it's anything that's more like messing with the vision I had in my head or that I'm not sure about or that I'm feeling defensive about or anything like that, I just take the note in the room and I say, great, let me go away and think about it. And I don't, I don't like, yeah, I take it away with me before I respond, which I guess is sort of just a backwards way of doing what you are. Like you do your thinking before the meeting and I'd say I need thinking time after the meeting. So yeah. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah, and some it's funny because sometimes I'd hear a note and think, I don't like that at all. but then I'll go Abi Hynes: Mm. Daniel: away and think some more and then realise, wait, actually. Kind of does work and I can Abi Hynes: Exactly, exactly. Daniel: see what they mean better now. Not that doesn't always happen, but there's the odd time. Yeah. Yeah. Abi Hynes: Sometimes you've just got to go and walk it around the park or sleep on it, haven't you? And sometimes what happens with me quite a lot is if I'm resisting a note to begin with, maybe 50 % of the time I'll find my way to answer the note. Daniel: right. Abi Hynes: they've made a suggestion that I don't like, that I feel instinctively is wrong, but I can see that what they're saying is act two is boring or we haven't checked in with this character for long enough or whatever. and will go away and will pitch them back my version of answering that note. And on the rare occasion that there is a note that I really don't feel is right, I do push back and I do try and explain. And again, it's normally a sign of like good chemistry with someone you're working with if when you Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: explain why you feel strongly about something, usually they get it because... you have a good reason. So yeah, obviously it depends what you know if it's your project you have a lot more power to push back if you're Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: writing an episode of someone else's show I try very hard not to push back unless the only time I would Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: push back then is if I really really think the note is going to break something fundamental like the Daniel: Right. Right. Abi Hynes: logic of this episode is going to stop working if I obey this note so can I just explain to you why that worries me like you know that sort of thing but obviously you just mostly try and tape a note in those situations. Daniel: so you're teaching, which Abi Hynes: Mmm. Daniel: I'm dipping my toe in as well. So you're gonna be meeting a lot of aspiring Abi Hynes: Nice. Daniel: writers. And is there something in talking to as aspiring writers that you kind of hear a lot that you think, this that you don't need to do that, you know, or it you you're getting this wrong, you should be doing this instead of that, or something else they should be thinking about as well as just, you know, learning about structure. Is there anything kind of like a repeated misguided step that you keep hearing? Abi Hynes: interesting. it's a probably obvious one but I do meet quite a lot of screenwriting students who don't watch that much stuff. Or in particular I meet students who to be fair are at film school so they watch quite a lot of movies but they don't watch a lot of TV and that's fine if you are like really sure that you

never want to write for TV. But if you Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: want to write for TV, just like if you want to write anything, you've got to hone your taste and your voice and your craft and the best way of doing that I think is just to consume. And that doesn't mean that you have to kind plough through shows you're hating. I always tell them to just like follow your own enthusiasm, like be a fan, watch whatever Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: excites you. but find that and keep watching it so that you can learn from people who are doing it really well. You can get a sense of what you don't like and what you don't think works as well. You can like have all these references in your head to go like, you know what? It was in a totally different genre, but there was this scene in this rom-com that I think I could flip and really use for my action film. Like you sort of got to have that. bank of staff and it doesn't even just have to come from watching I tell them to go to art galleries, walk around a museum with a notebook, read some books, listen to some podcasts like just just get fill your cup with stuff that means when you next are trying to find an idea or you've got a meeting and you've run out of things to pitch that you've like got a bit of material you've got some some things that you're interested in that you've been noodling with in the back of your brain and that are ready to Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: go and I think it's very easy to think when you're starting out that the only kind of writer development that matters is like slaving away on your next script and obviously you have to do that. I think I saw, I was googling you earlier and I think I saw you say to like on our BBC Writers Room thing about like make sure that you are writing and that try and write one or two new scripts a year if you can. I totally agree with all of that but I think the other half of that work is fill Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: your creative writer's brain with stuff you think is interesting and follow your nose with that interest even if it's Daniel: Mm. Yeah. Abi Hynes: weird kind of especially if it's a bit weird or takes you down a different path because that will all percolate and that you know ideas don't appear Daniel: Yeah. Abi Hynes: magically, they grow from what you put in. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. that's amazing advice. do you can I do you have like a favorite show or film that you think this is just the greatest written piece of work ever? Abi Hynes: obviously it's awful to pick one and basically impossible. But I tell you what, I tell you what show picked me up. I went back to rewatch it in that time when I was talking about when I was feeling like wrung out and a bit Daniel: Mm. Abi Hynes: done with the industry and the thought of starting on a new idea was like the last thing I wanted to do. And the show I rewatched that sort of saved me in that moment was the Queen's Gambit. which I absolutely Daniel: yeah. Abi Hynes: loved first time round and loved even more on second viewing and just did such a good job of reminding me why I just want to tell stories really well and Daniel: Mm-hmm. Abi Hynes: that I loved that before I was being paid for it and I will love it if I ever stop being paid for it and yeah I think it's a beautiful show that also really wrestles with the idea of perfectionism, ambition, creativity, all those things that I think a lot of writers, so it really spoke to me in that moment, I think. But yeah, I think it's a beautiful show. Daniel: And do you have a a book or film sorry, do you have a book, podcast or YouTube lecture? You know, possibly that one you mentioned earlier, that you think every writer if you could maybe you don't have to name all of them, but do you have if you could recommend one, what would it be? Abi Hynes: I tell you what I will recommend, I'll recommend it's another YouTube... so Selinskijama is amazing, I'd say that one is like once you've already got going, once you've got the basics, she's amazing, she kind of challenges some the received wisdom. The one I would recommend to everybody, including anybody who might be like quite near the start of their journey of wanting to be screenwriters, is and again I think it's BAFTA Guru Screenwriting Lecture, something like that. writer director Dee Reese, have you heard of her? Daniel: Mm. Hmm. Abi Hynes: She's fantastic and her screenwriting lecture she talks about the triple bumper theory which is all about how you write dialogue that feels real and that speaks emotional truth and that doesn't feel cliche or on the nose and it was that lecture that's been listening to her talk about that was one of the biggest step changes in in my writing so yeah I'm gonna say that one. Daniel: cool. Thank you. I'm gonna dig that one up. Okay, Abby. So we've gone through your hero's journey. And Abi Hynes: Yeah. Daniel: if we were to go back to you when you were just about maybe applying to for screenwriting, you know, you hadn't been accepted yet. So we're before then but you were like dipping your toe in screenwriting. You wanted to be a T V writer. You knew that you wanted you wanted to do. What advice would you give yourself back then, knowing what you know now? Abi Hynes: I would probably just say try and enjoy it. Try and enjoy it all the time. Not just on the days when you've got an email saying that you've been accepted onto something or that you've got a job because those days are brilliant but they're if you were to like line them up against the days where that doesn't happen there aren't that many of them. And I think for most writers, across all forms really, not just screenwriters, the people who stick at it and the people who make a success of it ultimately are the ones who do it because they love it. We do it for the joy of it. And you've got to find the joy as much as possible, regardless of the external validation. That's not to say you're allowed to feel sad. on the days when you get three rejections or a really big one that really hurts. But yeah, as much as you can find the joy and if it's not joyful ask yourself do I really want to be doing this? Do I have to be doing this? Would I be happy doing something else instead? The answer is usually no but at least it reminds you that you're in it for a reason.