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Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Is this what I'm good at? Or am I just lying to myself and actually I should just quit and go do something else? So all these thoughts and then suddenly your self-belief and determination and whatever else it is, is suddenly validated and you've got someone saying... I'll be your agent and represent you and we'd love to actually.
Daniel: I've been writing for almost 10 years and I've written for BBC, Channel 4, Paramount, CBS, Apple, UTV. one thing for me when I was trying to break in was how difficult it was. I had the craft, I had the determination and the skills, but just breaking in, know, getting that agent or getting that first job just seemed near impossible. And a lot of my fellow writers have that same story. So one thing we wanted to do was try and give back. And this is what this podcast is going to be about. so episode one, here we are. This is with Chloe Meelin We met years ago on one of the schemes that you do when you're training. She goes into her experience of going from staff writer to show runner. I'm so incredibly proud and... so inspired by her story and her journey and I think you will be too so enjoy the episode.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I'm I'm readjusting to normal life at the moment. I've we
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: finished filming my show about three weeks ago and then I had a sort of a little week in the Isle of Skye just to recover and not look at a screen or think about work for a little bit. And now I'm back home and yeah, and adjusting to normal. life and yeah so I'm all right I'm tired
Daniel: Were you avoiding emails?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: that I'm good my god I've got so many emails and texts and whatsapps and like messages and I'm still and now I've kind of I've got so many that I'm not replying to any of them because I've just got that the fear but yeah slowly slowly sort of yeah getting back in touch
Daniel: So this is like post
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: with everyone
Daniel: reconnecting with the world, yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Daniel: So this is post-production of your own show, your first show. Congrats, I'm so excited.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Thank you. Yeah, my first show, The Cadbury's.
Daniel: Yep.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, we're officially in post. It's happening. Yeah.
Daniel: Wow. Would you mind telling me, you don't have to go to every step, but how did the process begin? And then how did you get to pitch? And then what was that like? And then, yeah, how's it been along the way?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, so it's I came on board the project. It's Fable Pictures who are producing it. And they brought me on about two years ago. They optioned a book, a nonfiction book called The Chocolate Wars about 10 years ago. And they've been trying sort of different iterations of it. And I also discovered as well that even before they had the option 10 years ago, It was with another production company. And I think at one point James Graham was writing a film version. So it's been, it's been, this book has been on a massive journey. and then separate to that, I was doing generals with Fable Pictures years ago, like probably like five years ago. I think I had a couple of generals with them we just really got on. And then, yeah, just out of the blue, a couple of years ago, they got in touch and were just like, we're looking for a writer. Would you be interested, basically? And so they sent me the book. It was, there was already a version of the script and initially they were looking for someone to rewrite the script and then take the project forward. which was a weird thing. I've experienced that before. come on to rewrite someone else's script. that
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: felt a little bit uncomfortable and weird. But I was desperate to work with Fable. I read the book I knew instantly what the show should be. Like, I knew instantly what the tone should be. I knew instantly where the story should start. I had this really strong feeling and idea for it. And that kind of gave me the confidence to go in. had a meeting with Fable and I just pitched them the idea. And because it wasn't completely my... vibe like it wasn't it's a family drama and even though that seems to be all I end up writing that's actually not what I I guess the things that I'm necessarily interested in as a as a writer so I so I just so I went in with a bit of a fuck it attitude and I was like just gonna pitch them this idea and they're gonna like it or they're not And they loved it and they were really excited by it. And then they already had a pilot commission with UK TV. So then we took it to Helen Perry there at UK TV and sat down with her and I just gave her the pitch again. And luckily she loved it as well. so then it all started to happen quite quickly. Then I went away and I actually didn't end up re- writing the script that I'd been sent, I started from scratch and I just completely wrote my, my take on it, my version, because it was very different to they had shown me.
Daniel: What was pitching like to UK TV? Are you going in with a document and discussing beats of the series? Are you going in just fresh with what's in your mind and what you know and having a chat over a tea? What's it like?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, was more, it was very, it was much more cash. It was kind of cup of tea. We sat down. I'd obviously like prepped a bit and made some notes, but I just kind of went in and I just talked openly about sort of the tone of the show and who I saw as the main characters and where I wanted to start the episode.
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I think I talked about where I saw episode one ending, because it was very different to kind of what they'd previously workshopped. So I went in sort of pitching that this is how I see the series starting, this is how I see ep one ending, this is sort of roughly where I see the series going and where I see the series ending as well. And these are the kind of the characters
Daniel: Yeah.
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Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: that I'm imagining. So it was a really broad...
Daniel: Right.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: flavour, excuse the
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: pun, of the show.
Daniel: And then at the end, are they saying thumbs up? do you get a sense at the end of the chat how they're feeling? Or do they give feedback there? How does it feel once you walk away? Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I had a sense, commissioners, I think, they try to keep their cards quite close to their chest.
Daniel: Right. Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: And so it was very much like a great, that was great, thank you, I'm gonna go away, have a think, I'll be in touch sort of thing.
Daniel: Cool.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: And then it's just a really painful waiting game. But then I think quite quickly then, UK TV commissioned the pilot, or my sort of version of the pilot, because I'd already sort of technically commissioned the pilot. So this was my rewrite of the pilot. And then it was, and then it was, and then we sort of started to, and then I think they commissioned an episode two, but we didn't get the green light for the series until just before Christmas last year.
Daniel: wow. And by then you'd
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: So then it all happened really fast.
Daniel: yeah. And at the green light you'd done, had you written two EPs and was there any other documents you'd put together?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, a series outline as well.
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: And then full steam ahead.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Full steam ahead, yeah. Then it was a really, really, I mean, this last year has just been a blur of writers' rooms and pre-production. So it was a six episode series. I wrote four of those and then got two writers in to write three and four, episodes three and four.
Daniel: How long was your room for?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: We only did... they're so short in this country, aren't they? It's like two weeks.
Daniel: Sure.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: which is insane. But yeah, I think it was about two weeks in total. Yeah.
Daniel: And how did it feel like having, you've done rooms before that and other shows, how did it feel sitting at the head of the table? Maybe it was that your first time head of the table, like as in showroom.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: How did it feel going to that, moving to that seat, you know, that move?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, it was wild. It was a real mix of imposter syndrome and just sort of feeling like I was completely blagging it, but
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: also feeling in a really safe space as well because Fable have been great and they're such a brilliant production company and they've been so supportive and they create such a kind environment that
Daniel: Hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: it makes you feel quite safe to just kind of be yourself and just give it a go. That there's no judgement and you know, and the two writers that I got in were all so amazing and really supportive and lovely. So even though it was quite scary, also, yeah, it felt nice and safe. And also I... I've been lucky enough in the past to work in some rooms where I've had some great lead writers and I basically
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: just kind of took their template of how they did it and was like that worked really well, that made me feel really good as an episodic writer. So
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: that's probably quite a good way to go until you kind of find your own rhythm and... and confidence,
Daniel: Hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: but that was a good starting point.
Daniel: And if a new writer was pitching a show for the first time, or even just looking back at your own pitching and then development and writing, what advice would you give or learning experience you had or a moment that comes to mind that you think, wait, okay, that would be something to know for next time.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, I think the most success I've had in pitches is when I'm talking to them like I'm talking to you or a mate
Daniel: Mmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: or a fellow where you're just excited and you want to share your idea and it doesn't have to be perfect and it's not this kind of structured, this is what happens and then this happens and this happens. It's more like almost evoking a feeling and sharing your... excitement for the project and often I've found that for me that comes out in quite a jumbled way but I think or I hope that then that's really infectious and so then that's what sells the show right that's what sells the idea they're like yeah wow person's really into this and they really love this project and they really they've got a lot of thoughts and ideas and And so it's not about being perfect. I think when I've gone into pitches trying to give this perfect telling of a structure or a story or a,
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: it's never been quite as successful. It's kind of when you're just sharing the joy and what you love about it. And this, obviously there's things you need to hit. Like I think what's really useful is for commissioners to know. to have a confidence that you know where the story's going. And so I always find
Daniel: Right, right.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: being able to talk about where the show opens, where episode one ends and where the series ends and a rough idea of your main characters and their journey and their arc.
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: And I think that gives them confidence that you know what you're doing as a writer and you understand what needs to be done to make a good successful show. But other than that, just, yeah, just be excited as if you're talking to a mate about it. And that's when I find it successful and works. For
Daniel: I've heard this before, though, actually. People have said, yeah, it's like have that energy, speak to them like a friend or like you're discussing a show that you've seen. You know that feeling of when you've seen a cool show last week and you're telling a friend, you've got to check this out, you know, coming with
that
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: same energy, that same excitement. These are so many things that we're just not taught as well. Like, the training, you you start. wanting to become a writer and you learn how to write scripts, but then there's so many other sides to it, the pitching side, the general meeting, the page, the treatment, you know? Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: So many. Yeah, so many. And I think writing a script is almost just, half the job, right?
Daniel: Right.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: There's so much more to it. I don't know if... it's possible to teach those stuff. think, you and this is why I believe that people need to get into rooms and kind of experience it as much as they can in
Daniel: Hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: the real world. Because for me anyway, that's where I learn. Well, everything, honestly.
Daniel: What was it then at the beginning that got you going and wanted to start writing? What did you see or read that made you think, yeah, I want to be a writer?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I've been on such a weird, long, way-round journey with writing. I think, when I think back to when I was a kid and how I was literally brought up by the television and film and TV and how absorbed I was, and books as well, and how absorbed I was into these stories.
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: And I think I probably knew then that that's what I wanted to do, but I didn't have the language or the understanding to sort of translate that into a job. So, I mean, like I was part of the drama club in school when I was a kid. And I was obsessed with the breakfast club, the film, the breakfast club. And so
Daniel: yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I decided that I was gonna write out by hand. the script and turn it into a stage play. And then I was going to direct it and cast it and star in it and put on this show. I somehow got my entire drama club to say yes and our teacher and just put it on and perform it to anyone that would come and watch it. And so when
Daniel: Wow.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I think back to that, was like, It seems
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: really obvious that that's what I was probably meant to do. But then I left home at 16, so I had to start working. And then that kind of dream just got sort of swept to the side a little bit. And then it wasn't until I turned 30, I think, was like... This thing started just niggling me in the back of my head of like... remember how you wanted to tell stories and you wanted to do this thing? And then this really weird thing happened where I wanted, I was like, at the time I thought that again, I didn't understand that people could do writing kind of for a job or someone like me anyway, couldn't be a writer for
Daniel: Hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: a job. So I was like, obviously I want to be an actor. That's how I want to tell stories. And so I looked at these like drama lessons. Sorry, this is a really long, winding story. I'll try and be quick. Anyway.
Daniel: No, no, no, please don't rush. We're with you. I'm every beat of this story
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: So I looked at these drama classes and they were, I can't remember the exact amount but let's say like 120 quid or whatever to go to these drama classes and I was like I'll try it out. But I didn't at the time, I was so broke, I had no money. Then I got this message from my phone company who were like, we've been overcharging you and we owe you 120 quid. It was like the exact amount for these drama classes.
Daniel: Wow. Wow.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: And so I took that as fate and was like, right. And I went along to these drama classes. I loved it. And then I was like, this is it. This is I've figured it out. I obviously need to be an actor. And so I begged, borrowed, steal, stole and went to drama school and then had a really horrible time actually and was a struggling actor for years and years and years and it never felt right and I had a horrible time and it's a horrible industry and hated it and I felt shit about myself and... I'd never really worked because I got a couple of great jobs, but otherwise it was just hustle. And I was always having to do side jobs and worked at the National Theatre in the box office. And I waited and I did all sorts of random things just to pay the rent. But I had a lot of creative time to fill. And so I just started doing what a lot of actors do, I think, started writing like monologues, short plays.
Daniel: Hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: things like that, just basically to put myself in stuff so I had something to do as an actor. And then I very quickly realised that I was having much more success with that and that people were noticing that much more than they were my
Daniel: Hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: acting. And so then I was like, actually maybe I should be a writer then. But again, I just didn't know, I had no training. I didn't know how to be a writer or how to do it or how to get into it. And because I'd been writing short plays and I was working at the National Theatre at the time in the box office, I was like, well, maybe I should just write, start writing a play and try doing a full length play. And I tried writing a few plays and sending them to various schemes like the Bush Theatre and stuff like that. And I mean, they were awful. They were really bad. I'm not a theatre writer, but I was lucky enough that the Bush, they did give me some feedback one time and they were like, this has got potential, but it feels like a TV script. And that was the moment when it all clicked into place after however many years of
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: like, I don't even really like theatre. For me, TV and film is everything. That's what I grew up with. That's what I love. That's my passion. Why did this not occur to me before? And I think that shows a real void in the industry, I think, of sort of people from certain backgrounds not having access. to that and knowledge about the industry of like what jobs there are available and what you can do. And so it
took me this really long way round to get to a point where I was like, I think I want to write for TV. And then my first script, I think I wrote in Word and just had to do like the shift key, you know, to do like the character names and stuff and like try and
Daniel: Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: write this. attempt at a TV script. I probably didn't even know you'd call it a pilot at the time, just like an episode of a TV show. And then just started sending that off to every scheme imaginable, BBC, for screenwriting, you name it. I applied for it and just kept doing that over and over over and over and over until I finally got on some.
Daniel: Did you eventually move on from Word document? Word, yeah, how soon after did you make the step
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I I did.
Daniel: to, because it's a big step going to, well, for me it was anyway, because I mean, like, was just so broke, just a barman. And the idea of spending that much on software, which I did eventually, but yeah, when did that happen for you?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, I think there was a, I didn't go straight to final draft. I, there was one, there was like a free, I can't remember what it was, but it was one that had like a free version.
Daniel: Hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: And I, someone had tapped me up onto that and sort of suggested that. so I, so that was like a tentative step into, cause it's again, it's that weird imposter syndrome thing, isn't it? Where you're like,
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: well I'm not worthy of like a of the proper software, I'm not a proper writer, so I'll
Daniel: Right. Right.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: just try this free version out and see what happens. And there's something really scary about being in the proper software, isn't there? And it's like, I'm really making a statement here about who I am and what I want
Daniel: Mm. Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: and what I want to be. And that feels quite downright. And so, and then I think it was more necessity. to get onto like, I mean, I went with Vinyl Draft that I know there's other software available.
Daniel: Yeah, me too. Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: But that just seemed to be the industry standard and that just seemed to be what most people were working from. And so to create this vision of legitimacy, I eventually
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: sort of took the plunge and yeah, got on.
Daniel: Yeah, it's like you need that bit as well as calling yourself a writer and as well as sharing it. All these things that add to the levels of becoming a writer. And not necessarily because I think I thought which was wrong. I'm a professional writer once I get paid, you know, and I guess to some on
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: some definitions it is but come to realize, no, you need to become professional. and then you get paid.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Hahaha
Daniel: You need to show you can be professional. There's this great book called, Going Pro, Stephen Pressfield, which I read while I was like training about like, and it was basically about that. It's like, you need to learn how to hit deadlines and how to become a pro at what you're doing. And then the door is open. It took me a while to realize that. But I wanted to ask, so when you were writing those early stages, were you thinking I would... acting these pieces or had you decided to stop acting by then?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: No, I was, do you know what, it was such a relief when I sort of made the transition in my head to
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: be a writer that I could stop being an actor. And it was such a way off. And there was a moment, because I did have this really dodgy acting agent. And just as I'd started to find... a modicum of success in writing very, very early days. My acting agent popped up with this, what I would have a couple of years earlier considered like an amazing gig or opportunity for a gig. It was just really good, but I had to learn like 10 pages of sides for this film. And at the time I had a deadline for some, I can't remember what it was, but something writing related. And it just became such a clear choice for me. was just like, I have no
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: interest in spending my time learning these 10 pages of sides for this film that I'm
Daniel: Right.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: probably not gonna get. And actually do I even want it? And so I, yeah, then I knew and I was like, actually I quit. don't wanna do this anymore. Took myself off spotlight. And it was still the best decision I've ever made.
Daniel: I went through a similar thing. So interesting. Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Are you an actor as well?
Daniel: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I'd call myself that now, but at the time I thought I was like, yeah, I similar,
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I didn't realize.
Daniel: similar journey of like storytelling, loving it and then thinking it was the acting was what I wanted. And then realising during that time, I loved the script side of it and the writing of the words, not performing them. But having that same moment of, don't. Basically, I was in a play of production of Hamlet, and then I got to audition for another Shakespeare piece. But I also got to interview for a Lime Pictures writer's scheme, first ever opportunity I'd ever had as a writer. And I didn't get the play, and I was so sad. But then I did get the scheme. And I thought, wow, if I got the play, I wouldn't have been able to go to the scheme. And I'd want that even more than the play. So I clocked, no, this isn't, it's not for me. So yeah, took myself with spotlight, left the agent, felt great about it. You think you'll ever put yourself in anything? A little small part, a little cameo, a little...
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: So, do you know what? I actually did do a cameo in my show, The Cadbury's.
Daniel: amazing.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: And it kind of started out as a bit of a joke. It's literally like a character with one line, but it's a really good line. And I was like, a few of us were like,
wouldn't it be funny? Like, why don't you do a cameo? Like, maybe I
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: should do this part. And anyway, next thing I've like, totally agreed and I'm doing it. And it's... I'm on the wall as like number 37 in the cast or whatever so it was official
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: and then it came to the day and it was fun because it's a period drama I got to get dressed up and stuff and wear a wig and but I actually hated it it was really weird
Daniel: Really?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I thought it'd be really fun and
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I absolutely hated it I was just like just do a take and get me the fuck out of here I just Yeah, it was really strange.
Daniel: Yeah, what did you hate about it?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I don't know, I hated the pressure of it, the being in front of the camera, the... I think, I don't know if it sort of triggered a lot past stuff of just like, you know, when I was an actor, you're so conscious of your aesthetic, you know, and you're
Daniel: Mm-hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: so judged on how you look. and are you pretty enough and skinny enough and all this stuff. And it was so great to be able to let go of all that when I stopped acting and not care what people think of me from an exterior perspective. And I don't know if sort of some of that came back as well of like, the camera's right in my face and like, do I look all right? Like all these insecurities that just kind of flooded back that I'm like. No, thank you.
Daniel: I I see.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I don't need that in my life. I know I'm so sad. I honestly thought it would be really fun because it was just like no pressure.
Daniel: Okay, well, maybe I won't do it then. Well, I can't. Yeah. Hey, I'm sorry. Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: it just no, it's
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: yeah.
Daniel: Yeah, I've got this, I don't know, like this daydream of fantasy, like the show I make, whatever that is, and then I just play a barman, because I'd spent so many years as a parmen. It's like the dream of just having a show and then I'm playing a barman, giving that one line.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, there's some... I know, there's kind of a power to that, isn't there, which feels really satisfying. I think probably where I went wrong, in a weird way, is I maybe should have given myself a slightly bigger part in that to just do one line, and like a comedy line as well, there's so much pressure to that because there's no build-up, there's no... not to wacky, but you've got no character journey, no
Daniel: Sure, sure.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: you're just plonked into a set and you've just got to deliver this one line. And it's hard. And I
Daniel: Nah, I hear you.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: wonder if that's what it is and actually whether a
Daniel: Hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: bit more I would have been able to get into a bit more and sort of like enjoy it and enjoy, because I think to deliver one line, there's no acting required, right? Or maybe there's
more acting required than I'm capable of, I don't know. But either way,
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: it wasn't very satisfying. Whereas maybe a proper scene where you've got some actual dialogue and you've got some backstory and there's something going on and it might actually then give me that, I enjoy acting hit.
Daniel: I see what mean. Series
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Maybe.
Daniel: two or the next show.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: series too, yeah, I'm going to give myself a massive full on action sequence.
Daniel: action sequence and character arc and yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, the whole shebang, lead role.
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, watch his face.
Daniel: Hello, hello, Daniel Rousto. If sorry, if you're enjoying this episode and you're getting something useful from it, please, please do me a favor, would you just share it with friend that you think might enjoy it? That I would really appreciate that. If you have a question or recommendation, or you want to give me some honest critique or feedback, come find me at our Facebook group, There Will Be Notes Podcast. Thanks a lot. Enjoy the rest of the app. started writing, you applied to everything, and then I guess you would have gotten the BBC Schemes, which is where we met, we figured out one of those. And then when would you consider your break? Was it during that time? And when I say break, I mean like breaking in specifically.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, so it's all a bit of a blur, but it feels like I got onto fourth screenwriting and then there was three BBC schemes that I ended up getting onto. There was one like that was specifically for British East Asian, South East Asian writers. So it was a very small thing. I think that might be the first ever scheme that I got onto. And then I got onto fourth screenwriting and then... I then got onto the BBC drama or pilot scheme both at different times. through four screenwriting, I got my agent. And through one of the BBC schemes, I got my first credit because my script editor that was working with me on my project. she was mates with a really. Then it was sort of a bit of a snowball effect.
Daniel: How did that feel?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: It was mad. was actually very emotional because you work your ass off for years and years years years years getting nowhere and you have a lot of people saying have you thought about getting a proper job or you know
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: you're always broke and you're starting to have those thoughts yourself as your peers are starting, they started their careers before you and they're doing well and they're making money and they're buying houses and all this stuff. And you're still like a struggling artist and you, the doubt inevitably creeps in of like, is, am I, am I actually mad? Like, is this, am I deluded? Am I, is this my destiny? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing? Is this what I'm good at? Or am I just lying to myself and actually I should just quit and go do something else? So all these thoughts and then suddenly your self-belief and determination and whatever else it is, is suddenly validated and by the industry and you've got someone saying... I'll be your agent and represent you and we'd love to actually. And someone saying your script is brilliant and we'd love you to come and be in this writer's room. And eventually that turned into an episode, a proper episode and your first credit. so yeah, it's a really emotional feeling to learn. that you maybe are good and actually that you are a writer and you can do this and you are right all along. And
Daniel: gosh, yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: yeah,
Daniel: I had the same experience. And there's so many levels to breaking in, isn't it? And one of the major ones is just
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: believing in yourself, like, regardless of everything else around and all the setbacks and all the yeah, just keeping that belief. But then, yeah, doubt creeps in from time to time a lot. But yeah, I can
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yes.
Daniel: imagine it changes once the first kick and the agent comes along, or both.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, because how did it come about for you?
Daniel: So I got an agent because I cold emailed, I just started writing plays and scripts, same sort of thing. And then I just cold emailed a bunch of producers because my hack was every producer website says we don't accept scripts. But if I email ahead and say, can I send the script? I thought then great, it's solicited, know? So I emailed so many and I got like five replies and three agreed to read and one Dancing Ledge, Lawrence Bowen. Well, they weren't Dancing Ledge at the time. He was moving to start Dancing Ledge. So was really keen
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: to meet new writers and he read it and wanted to option it and then intro'd me to my first agent. And that came after like a good three or four years of writing by myself before that. But then the first job didn't come for another four or five years as well. But similar thing, like the biggest feeling was getting the agent and then the first gig which was Hollyoaks. But the major moment feeling was like writing something and being mid-page and realising someone's waiting for this script and someone's like gonna read it. It was a major moment for me because before that it was all just mine, you know, and I can take as long as I want and also it's mine to read and reread and send to whoever. But this one, a commissioned episode of Hollyoaks, there was a team. waiting for it. And that was just a big realisation was like, gosh, I'm working. This is a job now.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: But yeah, that's the yeah, and that's, that's how it happened, really. And it spread out over, I worked out the first script I wrote, and the first job I booked was nine and a half years before it happened. Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: and had those same moments of doubt and thinking I'm crazy and self-reflection. But yeah, takes time,
right?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, it really does. It takes a lot of time and lot of tenacity and
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: stubbornness. And yeah, and self-belief because I think even people who really care about you and it comes from a really good place, you it gets to a point where they're like, are you sure? Like, are you sure you don't want to explore something else? Or like, you know. trying to be supportive and to even to be, even to be, have to back those voices away and be like, no, I'm good. I've picked my lane and I'm staying on it. Come
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: hell or high water and this is, and it's going to end where it's going to end. Either I'll get to the end of the road and just fall off into a, off a cliff and that's it. Or I, there's, there's, there's, there's a career at the end of here somewhere.
Daniel: Was there ever a moment during that period or even during the career since it's got going that you've generally thought about on that day?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: No. No, not once it got going. No. Now I'm like, even if people don't want me, I'm in it forever
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: now. I'm like, I am literally going to die writing. There's just no other. And it might be that by the time I get to 80, I'm writing a novel or memoirs or whatever. or just, know, poetry or whatever, but I'm, I think this is it now. I mean, yeah, I just can't, I just, I've worked this hard and this long to get here and I, and I can actually say, even though inside I'm terrified saying this right now, but I'm, I'm good at it. I'm like, I know I am and... I'm not sure I'm good at anything else, not to this degree, not that would translate into a career. So I'm also, know, this is, there's nothing else that I could do well. So I, so yeah, I've made my bed and I'm going to lie in it forever.
Daniel: You said, is he gonna lie in it forever? I hear you, I so hear you. You said earlier, you've written on shows of a certain genre and even now you're currently writing a certain tone or genre, but you also mentioned a style that you love that you, not prefer, but that's a bit maybe more you. Can you talk about what that is?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: yeah. I mean, my big passion is to get some British East, South East Asian British shows made. Like that's... that's that's the goal. And I've got variations, the stuff I've got on development and there's sort of variations on that. I'm like developing like a kind of a Yorkshire, Kung Fu drama, martial arts drama. And I'm currently I've got a commission with Channel 4 at the moment for like a sitcom about a British Chinese family in Leeds. and very contemporary. I love, I like... I like stuff with a bit of a genre-y edge to it that's actually about something else, know, Mr. and Mrs. Smith or TASC or, those that vibe. That's what I'm excited to do next. that's... And yeah, it's interesting. I've ended up in this very sort of warm kind of space, which don't get me wrong, I love what I'm writing. I love the cabris. And I'm really excited about it. But I... That show found me, you know, that wasn't something that I was... developing or thinking about. I yeah, most of my stuff is work in class. It's kind of, I guess it's my experiences, right, that I'm desperate get on the screen in some way or another. And that's what I hope to do eventually.
Daniel: It's funny how that happens, isn't it? I talked to a few writers, they say the same thing where they have almost like a thing they love watching and writing, but then industry kind of can pull you another way and you still do really well in that other style as well. But you're able to wear those two hats. I
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: love bit of crime and thriller and action, but I also love some, I've done a few jobs where it's... Dramedy, drama, rom-com, guess, romance, comedy, you know, which is so different from the action thriller stuff I do, but
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, yeah.
Daniel: yeah. And I guess, I mean, we can all wear different hats, but there's also this thing of like almost sometimes I wonder, is this really the style I wanna do? Is this what I love to watch? Cause maybe I've got this thing in me that wants to write something a bit differently right now and being open more to that drama side of. really enjoyed doing.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, and actually what was great about, I feel so lucky that I got All Creatures Great and Small as my first credit and I was on that for two series. And not only did I learn how to be a writer, really, I also discovered that before that was kind of pigeonholing myself. as a writer as well. And I was like, really? I just love telling stories. And I can write period and I can write warm hearted and I can write multi-generational warm stuff. then when I got onto Beyond Paradise, I was like, I'd learned how to structure a mystery show. And I was like, Okay, I can also write mystery and can write crime and I can do this stuff as well. And that's really opened up my universe now. And so there's sort of the stuff I've got in development is so eclectic. Because it's just all, it's all people, isn't it? It's all people and it's all relationships and the human experience. And you can put it into... that into a crime thriller or you can put it into a family drama or you can put it into a sitcom. It doesn't matter, it's all kind of the same And so actually, yeah, it's really nice not to feel pigeonholed anymore, particularly by myself. Of just, if the story's good, and the characters are good and they're gonna take you on a journey and... you're gonna hopefully learn something along the way, then that's, I'm in.
Daniel: And when you have a new idea, what's your process of developing this kernel of an idea, whether it's a character or a world or how do you develop an idea to go pitch? And then also what's your script writing process like?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: So developing ideas is like... It happened, they mostly happen over a really long period of
time. And it's, I come up with a character or a situation. A lot of mine start from like a what if. So I'll be reading something or thinking about something. I'll be like, what if that person then went off and did that? Or what if this happened to them? And what would that look like? and I start to just noodle these ideas and I'll go on a dog walk. I think one of the best things to do as a writer is get a dog, because dog walks are like so brilliant for thinking and getting you away from your laptop and out of the house. And often I come up with my best ideas or sort of do a lot of problem solving on dog walks. And so yeah, I'll just start to noodle it and then I'll just start to write down little bits of like... not very formed ideas at all, things that I'm interested in or I've got like so many tabs open on my laptop with like newspaper articles or bios about people that I find interesting. And then my brain just sort of does it, I just let my brain do its thing and start to kind of put together something a bit more cohesive. And then if I can then see where that acorn of an idea might take me over six or eight eps or whatever, if it's got like some sort of... longevity as an idea, then maybe I'll have a crack at writing a one-pager or a paragraph. And then I'll just sort of, I mean, I'm really lucky I've kind of got to a point now where I have indies that I trust and I like and I want to work with. And so I just... set, I might just send them and just say, what do think of this? Has this got anything? Does this, would you be interested in thinking about this or developing this or, and then if you're lucky, you know, someone might get back and go, actually, yeah, like, I'm interested in this part of it or this, this is kind of, and then you might go away and, and they'll be like, yeah, come back with a proper one page or whatever. And then that gives me the incentive then to. think about it a bit more, put a one-pager together and then send it back. And then, yeah.
Daniel: And what about when you're at script stage, what's your process like of when you're on script? What's that like? What's your day to day?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: So I love a deadline. Absolutely. I love working under pressure. I'm terrible if I've got too much time. So I, yeah, I like to sort of feel that intensive pressure when I sit down at my laptop. And, but I generally, always now, I used to be a vomiter, like where I just start in script straight away and doing episodic work quickly sort of trained me out of that and now I have to do like an outline and a beat sheet before I go to script and I find and I've even like I've even bought myself a whiteboard now Where I just sort of, anything that comes into my head, I just write
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: it down on there. And then I do a lot of sitting and staring into the distance and trying not to look at my phone and doom scroll. And then when I'm running out of time, then I just write like the clappers and just. get it
done. not the healthiest process, but it works for me.
Daniel: Do you, within a deadline, are you saying I need to get these certain amount of scenes done or pages done or is it not like
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, so if I'm once I've gone to actual scripts and I've done my beat sheet outline whatever and I've gone to script then I try and work out how many pages I need to do each day before I get to the deadline and so depending on how little time I've left myself I could be anything from five to ten and and and then I'm quite good at if I hit that Unless I'm in like, I'm loving it and I'm on a roll and I'm like, I wanna keep going. Generally once I've hit that number of pages that I've set myself, I close my laptop and I go in and do something else. And I go and watch TV and I live my life and I try and give myself a good work life balance. partly because I just think that seems to work well for my mental health, but also how can you be a writer if you're not living life and experiencing life and being around people and listening to people and engaging in the world?
Daniel: And so then you've got to that draft. We've got to the draft that you're happy to share. How do you like to get feedback and notes?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I love notes. It's a very strange thing to say perhaps, but I bloody love them.
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Like give me the notes. I'm lucky I don't really have any ego when it comes to, maybe it's all those years of acting and rejection and just being like
Daniel: Hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: battered over the head and being made to feel like I'm... shit it just has knocked all the ego out of me so I so I don't I don't feel offended by notes I I also see writing as past a certain stage really collaborative if you're making a show that's a collaborative effort and so to get I think to get notes is kind of a privilege really you don't when you're when you're trying to do it on your own before you sort of find any success, you're having to give yourself notes and that's really hard. To have another industry professional give you feedback on your script is like, it's amazing. I feel
Daniel: It really is, yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: really lucky. And I found like... notes are just so useful. Either the notes are great and they give you an insight or a take on the story or a script or a character that you hadn't seen and you're being given that as a gift for free essentially which is great and it makes you look better as a writer. And if they're notes that you don't agree with it forces me to justify why it's a shit note to myself
Daniel: Hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: and sometimes back to the person but and it helps me to give to give clarity to the to the to the idea or the part of the script that we're referring to and that I find that really helpful as well so just yeah all notes love it and I kind of and I I like to get written notes because I like to do a first read where I have an emotional reaction to the notes
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: and I can be upset and pissed off and just being like, what are you on about? And get that out of my system. And then I'll shut my laptop. I'll walk away and then I'll come back to the notes and sit down and then, and then realise they're not actually as bad as I first thought. And then just start working through them and realising like lots of them are quite small and easy. And
Daniel: Hmm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: it just helps me think about the script analytically, which I don't naturally do. I think I'm a very instinctual writer. And so for me to be able to put into words what I'm trying to say and kind of justify the script is, yeah, I find such a helpful experience.
Daniel: I love that. I love that. It's a privilege. It's an interesting way to frame it because I think I kind can do the same thing where I want to. I give it a quick skim on my phone and then come back to it, know, but they're
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: a mix of emotions of like, they didn't get it or I've messed up somehow.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Mmm.
Daniel: But yeah, you're so right. It's a privilege to have someone read it and give feedback and give ideas and then be able to bounce ideas together and figure out where the problem might be. Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, because they're also people giving you notes are on your side. And I think
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: you can forget that sometimes. Like I've definitely forgotten that sometimes it feels like they're trying to catch you out or they're trying to be annoying. It's like actually they're just wanting this to be great.
Daniel: Yeah, sometimes it's, wait, I've done something here. The note isn't great, but there's something I haven't explained very well here and that's why it's bumping,
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: you know, and I need to figure out what that is. So it's such an interesting process, isn't it? Because also I understand sometimes where I can kind of tell when someone's giving me feedback on something and they're being very delicate in the way they deliver
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Mmm.
Daniel: it. And I don't need... them to be delicate. And then there's loads of thoughts happening. So there's loads of like things being said, but then things not being said. then I'm feeling and hearing the things not said, and then responding to that. there's a, but then that's the great thing about working with people you know, and they understand that you can be as blunt as possible and not personally.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah. Yeah, and I say that upfront now with when I'm working with companies, I'm like, you don't
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: need to spoon feed me and you don't need to sugar coat it. Like you don't
Daniel: Yeah, right.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: need to like I find a lot of the time they try and give you that shit sandwich, right? And they're like,
Daniel: You
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: and they're like, this is what we love about it. And then they like really give you all of
the shit.
Daniel: Yeah. Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: And then it's like, but and this was, it's like, I don't need that. I don't need you to sugarcoat for me. Just tell me your, your honest feelings and thoughts about it and let's work it through and let's, let's get it. Cause I like, my goal with a script is it to be brilliant. I want it to be great. And if, and sometimes you can't do that on your own.
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: and to have other people's brains and thoughts. And I say, it's not always, it doesn't mean all notes are good notes, but even the bad ones, I've, it's almost like your reaction to that bad note and the way you kind of can defend it often creates like a new great thought and gives you some clarity on something that you maybe didn't have before by sort of, having to defend this idea or why
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: you're doing something or writing something in a certain way. And that's, that can be quite exciting and can be a bit of a breakthrough. And that happened to me recently. And it was, yeah, was such a good feeling and that all came off the back of a note that I hated.
Daniel: Wow, wow.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: So.
Daniel: What about networking and managing a career?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Ugh.
Daniel: You
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: The thing all right, writers hate. Yeah.
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: It's I like when I when I first got my agent, had I did about it was over like 200 generals or something like it was ridiculous. Had so many meetings and I am not a natural networker. I'm not I'm bad at small talk. I end up just having to like drink loads of wine to sort of give me confidence and then you're pissed and then I'd make really bad social faux pas and it all goes a bit wrong. But I think what's worked for me is just reducing down to a small pool of like... indies and companies that I really like, trust and want to work with and that I feel safe to share ideas with and stuff and that's what I put my energy into because I don't think and I think also that means that I'm only hopefully going to work with people I actually really, really want to work with. So yeah, I've learned that about myself that I'm not very good at throwing a wide net. I've, yeah, I just keep it small and go to the people that I like and that have a natural vibe with and.
Daniel: the general meetings are interesting as well. Even that's something to learn. And then there's so many places and people to meet and then they move.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: But yeah, I've done a lot on Zoom as well as a lot in person. But yeah, that kind of okay. It's more the in person event type ones, you where you got... Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I know. I always just end up talking to other writers, which
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: is great. I like and that's I love that. That's pretty much the only reason I go to sort of any events now is to see other writers. But it's not it's probably not great networking. But I think as well, if you're
lucky enough to have an agent. If there's anyone that I really want to reach out to or meet, then I just ask them. I'm just like, if I come across any projects or there's anything that I'm excited about, I've read books and, and said, could you contact this right for me and set up a coffee? And then it's kind of easy, right? Because then you're just being excited about them and
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: their... So it's less about you then. You can talk
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: about that, which is a much more comfortable... comfortable kind of space to be in. And then it's a more natural conversation. But I'm, I'm not good at selling myself. I'm not good at schmoozing. Exactly. Exactly.
Daniel: why we're writers because we didn't want to do that side.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, exactly.
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: So yeah, I would say just like create, create some nice relationships and friendships and. and just be real and start from there.
Daniel: So let's say someone's trying to break in, but they've only got an hour a day to try and break in. So they've got a script maybe, they have a script, they have two scripts. But what would you advise someone does if they only have like an hour a day to try and break in?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: They've already got the scripts. I would say watch, watch stuff and stuff you love. Look at the credits, go on IMDB, figure out who are the production companies, who are the agents, who are the, the, people that are going to be helpful and, and write and start contacting people honestly, and be like, I love this show. This is what I love about it. I would love to. to work with you and this is why. I think come at it from a place of genuine excitement. And then I, yeah. that.
Daniel: What do you think of AI?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I think it's really helpful for research. From the point of view of is it going to take all our jobs, I don't feel too worried at the moment because I think storytelling is a human experience and AI will never understand that and so therefore I don't think ever be able to tell stories in a way that humans can. So I'm sort of, you know, I think that it might. end our world but from a writing perspective I think I feel
Daniel: Yeah.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: okay.
Daniel: What is the greatest TV show or film ever written?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: This is the hardest question ever. Can I just reel off a list?
Daniel: Yes.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Okay. E.T., Thelma and Louise, In the Mood for Love, The Sopranos, Reservation Dogs, The Leftovers, Dying for Sex, Beef, series one, Succession, Watchmen, the series, Mad Men, When Harry Met Sally, Alien, The Godfather.
Daniel: Yeah, I think I agree with every single one of those, especially Mad Men.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: You
Daniel: I've watched Mad Men now, think three, maybe four times, if I'm honest.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: So good.
Daniel: what book or podcast or YouTube video or course would you recommend an aspiring writer check out?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: I am... Script Notes, John August. I just think, I mean, he's... God, he's annoyingly talented, isn't he? He really knows his stuff and he's really good and he gets on great people and I think... Yeah, and there's generally, it's been going for so long, there's anything that you're not sure of or you need to get your head around or learn
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: more about, there's generally been an episode now on that subject matter. So I think that's a really good one.
Daniel: Yeah, I agree. I love that. I still listen to it now. I listened to it when I was trying to break in and still listen to it now.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah.
Daniel: So, gosh, thank you so much for telling us your story. I'd love to go back to when you were first breaking in. No, sorry, when you were first writing and applying to schemes. I knew you wanted to be a writer, but hadn't booked your... You hadn't received... You hadn't got an agent. and you hadn't booked your first job, what advice would you give yourself, you back then, knowing what you know now?
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Trust your gut. You're right. I think I've now had so many, I mean, I was right about wanting to be a writer. I sort of, yeah. But also, I've had so many experiences now. in my career where I've not listened to my gut and... something's gone a bit wrong or I've ended up on a project that I probably shouldn't have or I've taken on a development of something that I don't really care about. And when I look back, my gut was saying from day dot I don't think this is right. And it's, yeah, like your gut instinct, I think it knows, it knows.
Daniel: Mm.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: And so I wish I'd listened to that. more. Yeah, trust yourself, you've got this.
Daniel: Thank you so much. I can't wait to see the show. This has been so fun.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Thank you. It has been so fun. God, I love just talking about writing. I'm such a geek. It's just the best subject ever. I could talk about it all day.
Daniel: Yeah, me too. Let's do it again.
Chloe Mi Lin Ewart: Yeah, I'd love to.
Daniel: Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed that. Now, writers, get back to your pages, but remember, there will be notes.