สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: I'm on 13,000 plus autopsies now. And I don't think you become more hardened to death, you become more sensitive to it. It gets harder and harder actually. I mean, I had a father who lost his son last night talking to me on the phone this morning. The son died in a motor vehicle accident. And I must tell you... After all these years, I still do not know what to say to someone who experiences sudden unexpected loss. What does one say to someone? You think you have the answers on the tip of your tongue, but you do not. I woke up today to a very emotive phone call. you don't become more hardened to death, you become more sensitive to it. It hasn't become easier, it's actually become harder. You're not walking lightly on this crust of poor planet Earth, you're leaving traces of yourself everywhere, and everything you do, and everything you do will leave traces on the environment. So be mindful of it, be mindful of what you're coming into contact with, Be mindful in your day of what you are reading, what you are watching, who your friends are, you're the end result of all your people that you surround yourself with, what you are ingesting in the way of news, media, social media, Like you don't even know how you're being affected. And remember, the infectivity will depend on three things. Intensity, duration and nature of contact, how long, how hard and what kind of contact you're having with whatever you have in contact with will determine what will happen to you.
Clinton: Prof. Ryan Blumenthil, coming back for episode two. We were originally, wow, I think it was about three years ago. We met in a bookstore and signed off on your two books. And then the next day we were recording, and now we're back with your third book, Trace, which is up over here, everybody. I would like to get straight into it, prof. In the book, you describe writing as a means of processing and unloading a heavy burden of of what is no doubt a very taxing day. How do you feel when you look at a dead body?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Sure, let's start with an easy question. Alright,
Clinton: Mm-hmm.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: so, look, my colleagues and myself, we're trained for this. So it's fitness for purpose. I know nothing better, I know nothing worse. You know, if a member of the public were to see an autopsy, it would be a bloody mess. They wouldn't know what they're looking at. However, we are trained to look through this scientifically, philosophically. to look for the pathology. So we train for purpose. Obviously, I'm on 13,000 plus autopsies now. And I don't think you become more hardened to death, you become more sensitive to it. It gets harder and harder actually. I mean, I had a father who lost his son last night talking to me on the phone this morning. The son died in a motor vehicle accident. And I must tell you... After all these years, I still do not know what to say to someone who experiences sudden unexpected loss. What does one say to someone? You think you have the answers on the tip of your tongue, but you do not. I woke up today to a very emotive phone call. As I say, you don't become more hardened to death, you become more sensitive to it. It hasn't become easier, it's actually become harder. I also think once you progress in this field, you know, and as you rise in the ranks, the level of detail and the level of care and the level that people come at you is incrementally higher. So, does not get easier, I think. I think life gets harder.
Clinton: Do you think that you then appropriately develop the skills as you get more experience to cope with that added stress or burden?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: So think real Stokes don't even ask that question. Because, you know, you've just got to wake up, get into that mortuary, do what you have to do, get the data, get out. I mean, some days you literally have to white-knuckle it. You know, the metaphor I use for this is writing exams as a student. So there are those of us who wrote exams in a very competitive way to get good marks, study hard. Whereas if you had studied it for pure curiosity and for fun, you would have probably got good marks anyway. You probably would have got better marks. You know, how you go into things in life, I think if you go in it with a sense of curiosity, really to learn something and to be lost in the moment, you know, instead of getting into it and, you know, today I've got to do three or four autopsies, got to get through it, got to document everything. I think that whole mindset changes the way you look at life.
Clinton: Hmm. What about the writing experience? So you mentioned that that was a way of of sort of unloading and and that was the nature of the book. I think I remember you saying in the book that you wrote about different cases whilst they were still fresh in your memory. I think it's important to note because this is also a show where people like to improve and they want to see what they can take from an episode to improve their own lives. And part of that might be something like journaling. And essentially what the book trace feels like to me it's it's this it's a journal of things that you've come into contact with during the day and it's your way of processing it and then you've put it into a format that's digestible for for the South African public.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: think the word we want to use here is catharsis. It's cathartic.
Clinton: Mm.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Writing is like unburdening oneself of a heavy load. And I wish a lot of people would write because writing is creative therapy. It's a way of actually crystallizing your thoughts and putting it on paper. And yes, I did write it in real time because I think if I wrote it when I was retired or all the details would fade. So every detail here is crisp and I wrote it in real time. So, and I wrote it many times over to actually simplify it so that it is fully understandable. So I think the youngest person to read my book was seven years
Load full transcript
old. And I think the oldest person to read my book has been 96 years old. And I think everyone has appreciated it. It's written in a very simple way. I do write... Yes, to unburden myself. I'm not the first forensic pathologist to write a book. There have been many before me. What separates my book from theirs, in my opinion, is that whereas these are case studies of a forensic pathologist in Africa, it is about the reader. So there's a lesson to be gleaned, a reflection for the living from all these cases. And every single case here has been through an ethics and integrity committee. So every single case I managed to obtain consent. Every single case was a mini marathon. Every single case was an incredible hardship to actually get consent for, to be able to document. Each one was a mini journey. And you cannot believe the emotions behind every single case. There's one case in my book where I discuss creatures great and creatures small that kill people. And there was a case of a little a solitary wasp from Pretoria that stung a 42 year old male on the top of his right foot. And there were five children, four of which had died previously in a car crash. And he was the last living one of his line. And then he gets taken up by this small solitary wasp. And then I had to talk to the mother and the wife and the emotions in this meeting was, you've got to be... Yeah, like the most advanced psychologist, you've got to be a hostage negotiator. You're dealing with extreme extremes of life. know, because I needed to share this story. You know, and also there's so many messages and lessons from this, this, this incident. But, but that in itself, if, if, if you saw the behind the scenes of that WASP incident, to get it published, to get consent, to speak to the wife, the mother. You know, just to find out what wasp this wasp, this little wasp traveled more in depth than it did in life. It had to get diagnosed by an entomologist and there very few entomologists in South Africa. So this little wasp traveled all the way to Bloemfensein and back. know, but you'll read the story in the book. But that's just one little two page story. And as I said, it's like running a comrades marathon of the mind for just two pages.
Clinton: When you have been exposed to, I mean, you said earlier, 13,000 autopsies and counting, w I'm wondering how that changes your perspective on life when it comes to taking risk, because you are subjected to, on a daily basis, the unluckiest of the unlucky in in many respects. How has that, or has it, changed your perspective in terms of an appetite for for risk and freedom in life?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: That is such a wonderful and powerful question. And as you're asking it, there's so many things going through my mind. So, there's the Code of Bushiru, which says that everything in life has risk. There's an old saying from the Code of Bushiru from Japan, which says, whenever one leaves the eves, one is at risk. And I think it's spelled E-V-E-S, not Y-V-E-S. But anyway, whenever one leaves the eves, one is at risk. There's risk in everything in life. And there's hazards with everything in life. So, you know, as I'm sitting here in my office, there's some risks. You know, I could fall and hit my head on the counter. There's risks to everything. And yet there's hazards which are specific to a field. So, for example, my field has certain hazards which are very specific to forensic pathology. So, there's infectious risks, there's psychological risks, mechanical risks, there's radioactive risks, there's... There's specific risks to the field. So one does become very sensitized to the risks and hazards of life. And it is very difficult for me, as I walk through society, you see something and it's like, my word, do you know how dangerous this is? Do you even know what you're dealing with here? And it's obviously, it's quite scary because... I mean, and I will discuss this, you know, for example, in my book, I talk about all things that people do to themselves. You know, and I go through all the things that people do to themselves that we see at autopsy and people do not even realize the risks and hazards of what they're doing to themselves. And one of the big messages of my book is to leave yourself the well alone. You're a mammal, you're born a mammal, your needs are mammalian, your wants are mammalian, you will die a mammal. And now... you're doing things that are very unmammalian. So for example, getting tattoos. Tattoos have risks for cancer and immune problems, for example, or getting artificial breasts or doing things to yourself that have serious risks, which I discuss. Obviously, there has been some blowback from society from some of the things that I've seen in my book, but I do not regret this because... someone has to speak up about these things. So, you know, I took a whole chapter to discuss the risks and hazards of body modifications, of what people do to themselves and the risks and hazards involved with that, for example, and certain medical procedures. yeah, it's a till-all from a forensic pathology's point of view and from my point of view. So this is my opinion, but it's what we see on the autopsy table and the lessons for the living.
Clinton: Yeah, I loved the line that you said and there's something along the lines of I'm paraphrasing here, but we are the greatest risk to ourselves. So the the we are at greater risk of implosion than than explosion. And I think it it it speaks quite heavily to to To taking heed of our own bodies, our own mental wellbeing as well, because the physical is one thing, but the mental and emotional is another thing. And so many times you hear all often, you know, self-sabotage, self-destruction, low self-esteem. These are all things that have, I'm sure, found their way across your autopsy table many a, many a time. And I think that that is a really an important lesson for people to prioritize themselves and to make sure that they are
looking after themselves and they are being fit and healthy and doing the best that they can with the situation they find themselves in. And then if they're in a position where they're fortunate enough to have a full enough cup, so to speak, to then allow that excess to then be extended outwards to their immediate circle.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: May I expand upon that?
Clinton: Mm, please.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: If I may. So, I said in the book that all things being equal, the greatest risk to yourself is yourself. You are more likely to implode than explode. You're more likely to make a bad decision and hurt yourself than someone else making a bad decision and hurting you. All things being equal. You have to trust me on this. There's enough stats. I'm talking accidents, I'm talking suicides. The decisions you make will definitely impact you. And I discussed the philosophy of low-cost exchange principle and trace. And what is trace and how life leaves its traces upon you. And we see evidence of that trace upon you. So the choices you make is who you are. You cannot deny this. And then the second point I wanted to touch on is the second point of your conversation saying the cup is half full. You know, as a comedic, because I do have a sense of humor. In forensics, in pathology and in our business, we say the coffin is half full or the coffin is half empty, which is maybe a way to look at life. I'm a coffin half full kind of guy.
Clinton: Shucks, that's funny. So in those those th over thirteen thousand autopsies, is there anything are there things rather that still surprise you?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: absolutely. As I said, you don't become more hardened to death, you become more sensitive to it and you can never think you've seen it all. Every single day humbles you, brings you down to earth. When you step into that mortuary, it's by the grace of God and you just don't know what you're going to see. And I also discussed the public health role of forensic pathology in the book. beyond the crime aspect and exonerating the innocent and, you know, we have a public health role because sometimes the first presentation is death. So we're seeing it before it even gets to clinical doctors. So, and I discuss all the campaigns that forensic pathologists have helped with in the world, such as the Back to Sleep campaign. So forensic pathologists realize that you must put your baby to sleep on their back. If you put them face down, they don't last that long. You can trust me on this. It's SIDS, caught death, sudden infant death syndrome. So Back to Sleep campaign, that's from forensic pathologists. A lot of the tobacco stuff came from the autopsy table. A lot of the anti-smoking stuff came from the autopsy table. A lot of the vaping stuff now is coming from the autopsy table. know, vaping is so bad. I would rather people smoke cigarettes than vape. May I expand upon this? A cigarette
Clinton: Please.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: has a beginning and an end. A cigarette, we know the dosage you're taking. That's why we can work out your back, your history. Whereas a vape is a bottomless pit of who knows what you're inhaling. Your lungs, your mammalian lungs are not meant for vape. which is what, who knows what's inside there. And you actually get a condition called EVALI, which is e-cigarettes and vape-induced lung injury. And we started to see this at autopsy. A lot of the traffic stuff came from the autopsy table. A lot of the vaccine stuff came from the autopsy table. A lot of the HIV-AIDS stuff came from the autopsy table. So we're really getting to see the health of a nation from the autopsy table. So we, I like to see ourselves as public health pathologists.
Clinton: Mm-hmm. yeah, I mean that's it it sounds like you really are at the heartbeat of society, so to speak. and we've chatted about this in from your previous books, which I'll link in the show notes for people to read as well. You've spoken a lot so far today about autopsies and coming across the autopsy table, but what about times when you're moving off to death scenes? you mentioned numerous times in the book you get called out to death scenes. There seems to be this fascination in our society, be it through Hollywood with the likes of CSI Miami, Law and Order, you know, all these famous series. There's a fascination in the public about going off to a death scene and trying to establish a cause of death and what happened here. can you can you elaborate on why you think that is, number one? Why is there that this fascination with finding a dead body in in general society?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Look, you can try and glamorize this, but when you go to some dead scenes... So for example, in South Africa now we've got Zama Zamas, and the numbers are almost to the 2018 numbers of what we were seeing back then. And you know, this is actually subterranean warfare. You know, when you go underground, it's by the grace of God. You know, there's booby traps. These guys can throw...
Clinton: What are Zama Zamas?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Zama Zamas are illegal miners. You know, many of our mines have got illegal miners. Chrome mines, gold mines, know, there's above surface mines. It's an entire super speciality that we in South Africa, I think, have to deal with specifically that no one else in the world has to deal with. And, you know, the fault down there, the risks and hazards, there's cyanide, you know, that they use to extract the gold with the pandukas. There's ruby traps, you know, they've got their own system down there. I mean, you know, this is a super speciality in and of itself. It's just the examination of a death in illegal mining. And that's just one facet. But if you drive around any city or town, as I said in the book, we've been to death scenes that are dustbins. know, if a baby, an abandoned baby gets thrown away in a dustbin or on a rubbish dump. Flats, houses, swimming pools, salt water, fresh water. churches, religious places of worship,
brothels. You cannot believe where people die and the circumstances under which they die. So we have memorandums of understanding with the South African Police Service. So they come to the mortuary and we go to the scenes and it's very respectful. We introduce ourselves to one another. But yes, at all times of day and all times of night, we're in deaths in custody. It can happen anywhere on a rugby field, on a soccer field, on a cricket pitch. you name it, things will go wrong, people will die there and it's up to your forensic pathologist to work out what happened. and obviously certain scenes are more high risk and more dangerous than others. So yes, it's by the grace of God. We literally risk our lives for other people's deaths. That's why my second book was risking life for death. We risk our lives for other people's deaths.
Clinton: Okay, so a couple of things there. So the Zama Zamas, does that do you then go down into those mines to then yourself to then go and identify, establish cause of death and and that sort of thing?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Okay, so we've got 80 to 90 forensic pathologists in the country and we want to obviously protect ourselves. don't want, you know, and all our associate personnel, detectives, police, etc. So we are trying to work on clever ways of putting ourselves less at risk. So we're actually coming up with, for example, robotic canaries now. You know, like a robotic canary to go into mines to look for surveillance because... We don't like surprises, you know, and if you get to a high risk death scene, so for example, if there's chemicals or fire or radioactivity, we don't want to put people at risk. So yes, we are even using robots. We've got a mobile quadruped dog called Smith, which is a smart wolf. So we've trained it on low risk hanging scenes. So smooth is deployed for low risk hanging scenes. So walks in, it's got some payloads on its back. It's got cameras, sensors. And I wrote about this in the book Trace, which we can deploy in more high-risk death scenes. So, yeah, we've had some big cases to answer your question, where we have to go and... But obviously, you know, experts will go down deep into the mines, so you've got special, you know, parts of search and rescue that will try and extricate bodies. But sometimes the bodies... are just wrapped up and thrown on the side of the road next to an illegal mining establishment. just wrapped up. So, yeah, you've got to expect anything is what you must expect.
Clinton: So so why help me understand the full picture. So th there's a there's a dead body that's been found. The people call the police invariably. And then why what utility would there be for you going out to the scene as opposed to them the the the SAPS doing their thing and then you just wait until the body comes across your autopsy table?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Okay, so to answer this, need to put you in perspective. So, South Africa has between 60,000 to 80,000 unnatural deaths a year which require autopsies. There only 80 to 90 forensic pathologists that are Health Professional Council certified. So, that means for some facilities 20 to 30 bodies per day. Each forensic pathologist is performing between 450 to 650 autopsies per person per year. Sometimes you need to go to the scene because you won't get an answer. You need context in which the person died. But I'll discuss this in the book. So for example, you you can go to a scene. Just to give a very simple example. Like I had this scene with this middle-aged woman who was found dead, half-clad in her house. Doors were open. The entire place looked ransacked. The dog was missing. And on the face of it, this looked like a rape homicide case. Whereas after a thorough investigation and autopsy, turned out to be natural. She had a natural underlying brain pathology and she had done everything herself. She was psychiatric and the dog simply ran away. So was totally innocent. Whereas to the layman, this would look like a rape homicide case. It would look like the house had been ransacked, but it was totally natural. Whereas in another case, I also had a middle-aged female in a house with a locked door. Everything looked pristine, she was found dead in her bed, in her pajamas. Everything looked serene, whereas that ended up to be a murder. It was a real locked room mystery. And we picked this up because the killer locked the door from the outside and left with a key. it was absence of evidence equals evidence of absence. So there was no key, but it looked like a locked room, but there was no key. And we picked this up from the fact that there was no key. it was, she was murdered and the entire scene was... staged and then the killer locked the door and left with the key and that's how we picked that one up. So sometimes the scene gives incredible data and sometimes the autopsy gives incredible data. There's some conditions, so for example positional asphyxia. So for example someone comes home late, tries to climb through the window and ends up trapped in the window, like you know half bent over the window and he's in a position that he cannot breathe. He's maybe inebriated or drunk and he dies in position on the windowsill. This is called positional asphyxia. He ends up in a position that compromises normal breathing. I need to be at that scene. I need to see that situation because if you remove that body and put him on the autopsy table, there's no way I'll be able to diagnose this. So I needed that information from the scene to be able to make my diagnosis at autopsy. And there's many other such conditions where I need to see... the scene to get a greater insight, the context. But sometimes, as I say, at autopsy you find something totally out of the blue that you were not expecting. know, some tumor or some infection or some aberrant finding and you can get the scene for hours and hours and nothing but the autopsy would sort that out.
Clinton: Mm mm. So to get a full idea on the sort
of professional circle of what happens here, from the time that the body gets found, how long does it take to then get to you at the autopsy table?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Well, this depends obviously on the jurisdiction and the resources and how busy people are. We've got a national code of guidelines for forensic pathology practice in South Africa, which gives standard operating procedures as to how things should be done. And obviously this depends on resources, personnel, how busy we are, et cetera. So we're acute pathologists. We want the answer as quick as possible. So we try and do things as quick as possible. Obviously resources and staff. dependent.
Clinton: Hmm. you've mentioned many conclusive findings so far in our discussion. No doubt there are some mysteries where you perhaps can't establish something conclusively. I want to know how comfortable are you with leaving something unknown?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Well, the same kind of uncomfortableness, that demoralization, it feels as if you started a puzzle and you can't finish it. And if you've got OCD, that's not a good feeling. Imagine starting a puzzle and you just leave it. That would drive me crazy. Yet we know there are certain puzzles that cannot be solved. So for example, sudden infant death syndrome, we know that no matter how much we dig, no matter how many special investigations or how much money we throw at this, There is no answer. These children just die. This happens around the world. These cut deaths. Mines immeasurably superior to ours have tried to find out what the cause of these deaths are. And they cannot find an answer. After a thorough scene investigation, thorough autopsy, thorough special investigations, there is no answer. And we cannot keep throwing resources at this and money. After a while, we have to just call it. We have to just say, listen. cannot go no further. We do not know. This is unattainable at autopsy examination alone. And obviously this feels uncomfortable to us, but we know from the literature that we're not going to find anything. And there are other such conditions. You know, not everything leaves morphological findings on the body. You know, you can die from an electrolyte abnormality or endocrine abnormality or arrhythmia of the heart, whereas you're going to not find anything on the body, no matter how much I search. I'm going to find nothing because it's a functional physiological depth process. There's nothing morphological that I can find. So if you've really been in this game long enough, know, the non-diagnosis rate for someone such as myself should be about 10 to 15 percent. Where I just say, listen, I don't know. 10 to 15 percent of my cases, I have no idea why they died. It's G-O-K. God only knows. G-O-K. or in Afrikaans, G-A-W, Göt Aljönviert. We have no idea. The diagnosis rate for juniors is actually much higher because they earn the side of low self-esteem. So they call it more, but whereas whether they write it wrong, I do not know. But I think the more experienced you become in this field, the more you learn to doubt. And to say, listen, I don't know. We don't know what the cause of death is. So for experienced forensic pathologists, It should be about 10 to 15 % of our cases where we just have no idea what caused the death. No idea.
Clinton: Fascinating. in these over thirteen thousand autopsies you conducted, do you if you could go back and and offer a word of advice to the prof Ryan Blumenthal when he was first starting out his career, what would you say to him?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Sure, it's been a long road. It's been a fascinating road. I would definitely do it again in a heartbeat. It's been tough. mean, as I say, sometimes you white-knuckle it, but it's been very rewarding. I would still say just be curious. Look, you make your decisions in life and you have to stick with them. The grass is not greener anywhere else. This was my lot in life. Obviously, a lot of luck. was at play here. As I say, I'm lucky I got into medicine. I don't know if I would even get into medicine nowadays. I don't know if I'd get into forensic pathology nowadays. Systems change. So I think if it was just the right timing, I was very fortunate to get in at the time. I made the best of what I had with the resources that I had availability in the system that I had availability. I'm very grateful to have. had fantastic mentors. I would not change my mentors for the world. I've had fantastic mentors. And you find your mentor. And your mentor finds you. It just happens like this. And I've had many mentors, some from overseas. And thank goodness for the different ways of communication. But everyone played a role. Yeah, I don't think I would have been able to just open a cocktail bar somewhere in the middle of nowhere. I don't think my life would have been as interesting. I am where I'm supposed to be. I have no regrets. It has been hard. mean, you're dealing with political stuff sometimes. You're dealing with unions. You're dealing with interpersonal conflicts. You're dealing with highly emotional states. In my book, Towards the End, I think I wrote a very beautiful paragraph where I said, you know, forensic pathology is dirty. back-breaking exhausting work that takes toll on you mentally, psychologically. However, if you do it correctly, there's something almost superior that swirls around it. When it becomes an academic thing for the greater good of society, you cannot touch this. It's an intangible feeling that once you've finished, once you've done a proper examination and once real justice comes of this, it's an intangible... almost mystical, mythical feeling that you cannot even describe when everything works beautifully. know, it just trumps every single hardship that you do in the process. The flies, the smell, the politics, the unions. You know, when real justice, when truth emerges, no amount of money, you know, I'm not a rich man, but no amount of money can give you that
intangible feeling.
Clinton: How often do you remind yourself yourself of those stories?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Every single day when I wake up because you know you wake up, know currently the jasmine is in full bloom Outside
Clinton: Mm-hmm.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: my house. It is intoxicating. It's this heavy odor. It's magnificent you know you wake up it is so amazing and then you've to go into the trenches where there is just flies and odor and interpersonal problems and Not for everyone warfare miniature. Some days as I say you've to white-knuckle it but you've got to keep calling out the reasons why you're doing it every single day and the reasons are it's my calling and this is what I chose to do. Also would be in opening a cocktail bar somewhere on the coast somewhere. Yeah, that's what I would be doing.
Clinton: We could do with a few cocktail bars here down in Kazadin. I think yeah, if ever you decide to to hang up hang up the booth, so to speak, then there might be a space down here for you. there's a wonderful line in the book, you said, What lies beyond our current view of the world remains invisible. And I thought that that w was quite relatable, both in the context of your profession, but also in the context ph philosophically for people. what we draw our attention to. There's a wonderful line from Jordan Peterson, and he says, The world reveals itself in accordance with your aim. And so it speaks to your focal point. What are you focusing on in life? And the more you focus on something, the more life will reveal itself to you in accordance. Can you speak to me about that line and your thinking about it and perhaps any philosophies that you have between those two those two worlds?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Alright, so I wrote Trace with many books, having read many books, many from the 1920s and 30s. And I believe in some aspects they were far brighter than us today in the fact of their moral compass and how they live their lives. And then my book is called Trace for a Reason. Firstly, Trace is a noun and a verb and it's what's left behind after contact theory, which is low-quality exchange principle. Every contact leaves a trace. And regarding that... statement I made about what we see and what's invisible to us. That is how we catch murderers. So there's a beautiful book I read called The Weaponization of Everything. And in this book, towards the end, was something that triggered my mind which made me write about this. And that is, we are now all soldiers for a country whose passport we do not hold, for an end goal we do not understand, by simply forwarding a meme. You could be engaged in some kind of warfare without even realizing this is invisible to you. And also, everything you do in a day, as innocent as it may seem, could have unintended consequences. This is the invisible world. This is a world that we see every single day. And I use a very simple example, glitter makeup. I know this is such a simple thing that I mentioned in my
book. Low Quartz Exchange Principle, Contact Theory, every contact leaves a trace and what is that trace that's what's left behind? You you could put on glitter makeup and go to a wedding. By the end of that evening, everyone is covered in glitter makeup and I found glitter inside the gastrointestinal tract of a human being because everything gets swallowed. You may wear the most beautiful perfume and deodorant. Go look at the ingredients of that deodorant and perfume. You cannot even pronounce those names. It all gets swallowed. Every contact leaves a trace. You cannot escape this. cannot fool it. Only human failure to identify it and interpret it can diminish its value. And if you realize how everything has an effect on everything else, and then I even go into the... We're catching people off emojis nowadays. You know, it's called your idiolect. If you send a text to someone, the way you sign it off is your idiolect. That's how we caught the Unabomber. Ted Kaczynski, you he wrote a manifesto and he had letters and the forensic experts could work out that this is the same person because of the idiolect, it's forensic linguistics. You had this line, you can have your cake and eat it too. And he wrote that in his letters and wrote it in the manifesto. And we worked out this is the same individual that's writing the letter in the manifesto. When you send a text, you have your own idiolect, you have your own emojis. And there was a very big case in South Africa called the Meninga case where someone went down because of... emojis. So every content leaves a trace, you're leaving traces of yourself on the internet. You cannot walk through this life without life impacting on you and without you impacting on life. And you know what, I want to just mention something else. I've got lectures next week for my students. I've been, I've had a diagram in my head for over 20 years and I've always wanted to draw this diagram because I thought, you know, but it would cost so much money. to create this diagram. But I wanted to show you just how powerful Trace is. So look, I went to AR, and I literally spoke this diagram that's been living in my head for 20 years to the AR. And finally, after 20 years, I saw this. And it's such a simple diagram, but it is so hard hitting. May I describe this to your listeners and viewers?
Clinton: Yeah, absolutely.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: I just, in my mind for 20 years, I had a female stick figure. on an environment holding an object and a male stick figure on an environment holding an object. And I wanted to show you how trace works. Do you realize the female can leave trace evidence on the object, on the environment, on the male's object, on the male and the male's environment, and vice versa? And the air around the person can leave traces of themselves on themselves and on the other person. Every contact leaves a trace. Do you realize how impressive and how powerful this is? So in other words, you cannot exist in life without leaving trace evidence of yourself on your objects, on the other person, on the environment, and in your environment. And because of that, we can catch you as a murderer.
Clinton: How should people, philosophically speaking, apply that low cards exchange theory or low cards exchange principle in their own lives? What can what should people take away from that?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Okay, so firstly be mindful of it, that every contact does leave a trace. You're not walking lightly on this crust of poor planet Earth, you're leaving traces of yourself everywhere, and everything you do, and everything you do will leave traces on the environment. So be mindful of it, be mindful of what you're coming into contact with, and as I said, the weaponization of this contact theory, it can be used as a weapon. So just... Be mindful in your day of what you are reading, what you are watching, who your friends are, you're the end result of all your people that you surround yourself with, what you are ingesting in the way of news, media, social media, whether you're on any app. Like you don't even know how you're being affected. So try and infect yourself. And remember, the infectivity will depend on three things. Intensity, duration and nature of contact, how long, how hard and what kind of contact you're having with whatever you have in contact with will determine what will happen to you. So for example, you don't just get tuberculosis, you have to come in contact with someone with tuberculosis and you need to have intensity, duration and nature of contact, how hard, how long and what kind of contact. So if you have extreme contact and prolonged contact with someone with TB, chances are you'll get TB and so too with your social media. And so too what you're reading and what you're doing every single day. So even as you grow older, as you retire, what are you going to do? What context are you going to have in later life? Who are you going to have coffee with? Who you going have tea with? Who you going to have milkshakes with? How much time are you going to spend with them? How much time do you spend on social media? All these things will affect you.
Clinton: It sounds to me like this is a call to accountability. That people need to be accountable for their actions and and and mindful about the decisions that they make. Would that be fair?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Look, this is a PhD topic times a million because I think there's not a field on Earth where low-coordination exchange principle does not work. Even if you're doing advanced physics on the molecular scale to planetary studies, every contact leaves a trace. Every field. Show me a field where low-coordination doesn't impact. And yeah, please bring it to my attention. Because every... thing we do in a day has to do with interactions and contact.
Clinton: In your experience you came up with some rules, if you want to call them, in the end of the book. One being the triple B law or the Triple B rule. Can I
found that quite fascinating? Can you elaborate on that for me?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Yes, in my book I wrote some dictums, some forensic dictums. It's like a tell-all, it's just some basic rules of thumb or things that we found that maybe a pattern develops or we've identified the pattern. look, in our interpersonal violence cases, you usually find them in the bedroom, the bathroom or behind the wheel. And I think there's a message to come out of this. Number one is interpersonal violence happens in confined spaces. So if you're going to have a fight with your partner, please go into public. You'll probably save your life. Just go for dinner and have a nice conversation in a public space. You'll probably survive it better than in a private space. yeah, interpersonal violence cases, we usually find them dead in the bedroom, the bathroom or behind the wheel. So that's just a dictum that, you know, my patent-seeking brain discovered.
Clinton: When you when you look at and and you find these patterns and you establish them over time, how often do you reflect on that? And how often does that perhaps change your existing perceptions on life, on your own life? are there things where you look at a case or you come across a case and you find yourself having your existing narrative challenged and then therefore having to then change your viewpoints on something.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Right, this is dangerous territory. So look, as forensic pathologists, we have our client base. And then we see a lot of signs on these bodies. Now, you know, my thinking mind would kind of create some kind of link between seeing these things on my clients, my victims, and high risk taking behavior. you know, whether there's an association or not, we do not know. But if I've done 13,000 autopsies, and I see certain findings on many of my bodies. If I meet someone in life with such a finding, surely some of my alarm bells should go off, you know, because this could mean high risk taking behavior or some kind of personality disorder. So, yeah, what this means is what this means. So, obviously I'm a bit nervous now, you know. It's like if you see a poison arrow frog in the wild with all these colors. that's telling you, hey, I'm dangerous. So I found an association between these poison arrows frogs and an outcome. And I'm saying that there could be a link. Whether I'm right or wrong, I do not know. But yes, I am nervous if I see these things on someone.
Clinton: Mm. prof mm.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: So for example, I gave some examples, yes sir. Like in autopsy, if you see someone with scars all over their body, that means they must fight a lot or in excellence a lot. And, you know, there's probably a chance of more fighting, more excellence. You know, that's a possibility.
Clinton: Have you changed your mind on anything recently? It may or may not be relating to your career,
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Sure, that is us.
Clinton: just in general.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Sure, that is a very unexpected question here towards the end. I'll try
Clinton: I know.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: to make decisions based on... data. Obviously, I do change my mind if I get new data. So I will do my examination and then in court they may present me with new data, new data, new opinion. So it's a nice way to protect your integrity because I never had that data in the beginning. So if new data, compelling data comes to the fore, I will change my mind. Remember your data is dependent on your senses. And as one gets older, one senses diminish. So your eyesight goes, etc. So a better forensic pathologist may be a younger forensic pathologist with better eyesight. And I've had some incredible colleagues pick up the most incredible things just from slow meticulous dissection technique. So I've seen someone find melanoma, metastatic melanoma in the spinal cord or superior thyroid artery aneurysm. that perhaps maybe an older Ryan would have missed because your senses may diminish. So you need sharp senses, you need to train your senses as you get older. You need to keep your mind open for new data. And data, as I say, depends on your cognitive ability and your senses.
Clinton: Mm, keeping your mind open for new data, how how willing are you to let go of your previous conclusion based on the arrival of new data? Because to change one's mind also means that there needs to be an e a relinquishment of or relinquishing of the ego.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Absolutely. So this brings us to artificial intelligence once again. You know, we studied the old way. I wrote in my book, know, us Gen X's and even the old boomers learnt how to walk on water, you know, to cross a river. Whereas now these younger generations just take a boat. So they haven't suffered. You when I was younger, I walked through the wards with all my books. And in the middle of the night, if a patient's crashing, I'd have to go through the pages. I'd have to wait six weeks for an article to come through the library. Now you just touch glass and you get the answer. So I suffered for my knowledge in the younger days and now knowledge is so freely available. And also the AI is no more than any, your most experienced and brilliant doctors, no less than the cheapest, freest AI. So things are changing. It's like a big reset happening. We're trying to get our heads around this. These are very interesting times, but we are relinquishing You cannot claim to know everything nowadays, because even the most experienced doctor with wisdom and knowledge is less than the cumulative knowledge of an AI.
Clinton: Mm. Prof lastly, before we sign off here today, what what do you hope the readers get from your new book, Trace?
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: Well, it is a profound, chilling, real, easy to read. message to the reader about the power of contact theory and what contact theory is about, what it leaves behind. It's definitely about the reader to live a better life, to grow old better. think when you put it down, this
book will stay with you. It's not something that you will forget and it's a book you want to pass to your friends. I suffered for this book to put this down. In the beginning page, it said, I did not use AI for this book and this book may not be used to train AIs, if you read on the front page of the book. this is, and we're moving into a stage now where, yeah, this is like almost end of days to write a book now, because you can write a book in five minutes on AI now. This is suffering, this is 13,000 autopsies in the trenches with my brain, my interpretation, with some messages. I just have to share this, I had to get it out of me. I could not live with this any longer.
Clinton: I think with respect, that is the appeal. The the appeal to the reader and to me having read the book and having read your two of your previous books, is that 180, 200, 250 pages, however long the book is, that's a culmination of a man who's dedicated his life to a certain area and and that culmination and and condensation of that ev of that of those experiences has then been put forward onto page and for me to then digest but to digest the the most conclusive threads or patterns that you have seen over time and how that has in turn impacted on the way that you view the world so I can gather a fair amount of the knowledge that you've acquired over thirteen thousand autopsies and how it relates to a worldview just by reading this book in in a matter of hours. And the only reason that that makes sense to me is because it's been written by a person who has also put their blood, sweat and tears into it. I I mean I will we'll sign off on this. The a a client of mine sent me a song And and it was it it was such a nice song, it was for the gym and it was nice and upbeat, and the lady who was singing in the song just had the most incredible voice. And I subsequently stumbled across the fact that it was an AI generated song. The lyrics were written by by person, and the lyrics are excellent. But shortly after that, a week after that, it it the song lost its appeal because I I doesn't I can't relate to it because it wasn't generated and created by another human, whose actual voice it was that is singing, who is somebody who's persevered and has had to has had to sing in clubs in front of, you know, fifteen drunk people at twelve o'clock at night until such time as they get recognized that they then have a platform through which we can all listen to them. That is the story that is appealing. And I think as we move into the what is now we're firmly in in the generation of of AI or the AI era I think that actually the the desire and the appetite for more human experiences and more human interactions is going to increase. So therefore if I had to stake a claim I would say that books that are written by humans are would then become more valuable than books that have been written by AI and may in turn fetch a greater price. That is my that is my opinion. I feel the same about music and I also feel the same way about any creative art. So be it movies or be it literal art. so yeah I mean kudos to you for not using AI. I think that is a major green tick as to why people should go and read the book. And as I said to you off air, really on a par with your two previous books. And I mean that in in in the nicest possible way because your two previous books were exceptional. So well done. Keep going and fighting the good fight and doing the great work that you do. And I really appreciate you being on the show once again.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: It's been an absolute honor. Thank you so much. yeah, like any worthwhile contribution afterwards, you can feel it. It's like, your podcast, Expect Performance, is about extreme athletes. I mean, once you've completed it, you you feel broken, yet there's a spirit that you cannot take away from someone. You know, it's blood, sweat, tears, and bone marrow. that goes into writing. It's your soul that you put on your pages. I'm still recovering from this book. It really did take it out of me. It takes it out of you. But like any worthwhile achievement, you just try and contribute where you can contribute and you hope it reaches the right people. But it's like creativity and it's good for your soul. And then the body and the mind have got a short memory. So you just got to get back into it afterwards.
Clinton: Prof. Ryan Blumenthal, thank you so much for being on the show. It's been an absolute privilege and an honor as it was last time. Thank you very much.
Prof Ryan Blumenthal: bless you sir.
Clinton: Thanks everybody.