บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Jonathan Swan’s Dive into Trump’s Reality

one way or the other on that stuff. 73 00:04:44.500 --> 00:04:51.490 Until today. Today is the day Jonathan Swan announces whether 74 00:04:51.829 --> 00:04:54.670 or not the tapes are real. 75 00:04:56.170 --> 00:05:02.160 It's been notable for the lack of denials. I'm sort 76 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:07.060 of constrained somewhat in... There have been people who've reached 77 00:05:07.100 --> 00:05:12.519 out privately about different things. Particularly with Iran, we've done 78 00:05:12.540 --> 00:05:16.550 some reporting since the book came out where we have 79 00:05:16.589 --> 00:05:21.009 heard from people saying the situation is worse than you understand. 80 00:05:21.769 --> 00:05:26.509 In particular, we've done some reporting on how this war 81 00:05:26.589 --> 00:05:31.189 has depleted America's weapons supplies to a really alarming extent. 82 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:37.319 That reporting has become the subject of leak investigations and 83 00:05:37.939 --> 00:05:42.990 other things. So it's been a very difficult time. I mean, 84 00:05:43.009 --> 00:05:45.410 some of my colleagues had the FBI show up at 85 00:05:45.449 --> 00:05:49.569 their houses for another story. So I would just say generally, 86 00:05:49.649 --> 00:05:53.120 in terms of the national security reporting right now, it's 87 00:05:53.139 --> 00:05:57.600 a pretty delicate time. And we're just trying to make 88 00:05:57.660 --> 00:06:01.639 sure that everything we write is completely bulletproof and buttoned down. 89 00:06:02.220 --> 00:06:04.600 How do you do that? What's the process? So if 90 00:06:04.660 --> 00:06:08.259 people reach out to you and say, this Iran war, 91 00:06:08.459 --> 00:06:11.420 you're not getting the whole story. And not to frame 92 00:06:11.459 --> 00:06:15.120 it in, these are the Pentagon Papers. But what is 93 00:06:15.180 --> 00:06:19.430 the process? So just stick with that larger claim. We 94 00:06:19.470 --> 00:06:24.110 have a depleted supply of missiles or armaments, or the 95 00:06:24.149 --> 00:06:28.829 supply chain is broken because the attacks that Iran did 96 00:06:28.889 --> 00:06:32.050 on our bases in the Middle East were more damaging 97 00:06:32.089 --> 00:06:36.629 than they had, you know, first. How do you go 98 00:06:36.709 --> 00:06:43.170 about the process of making those claims bulletproof? What's the 99 00:06:43.230 --> 00:06:48.310 difference between accountability and actual sort of specific evidence? 100 00:06:49.430 --> 00:06:53.410 Well, it's difficult for lots of reasons, but one is 101 00:06:53.449 --> 00:06:58.769 because during this war, information has been kept secret. extremely tight. 102 00:06:59.189 --> 00:07:03.970 Central Command has been really, really secretive about all kinds 103 00:07:04.029 --> 00:07:07.500 of things. They will say it tips off our enemies 104 00:07:07.939 --> 00:07:11.339 if they know how many air defense interceptors we have. 105 00:07:12.540 --> 00:07:15.399 The problem with that

argument, and we have reported quite 106 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.439 a bit on the lack of air defense interceptors, and 107 00:07:18.819 --> 00:07:23.660 in some cases, gotten quite specific with numbers. The problem 108 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:28.290 with that is China and Russia have pretty sophisticated ways 109 00:07:28.389 --> 00:07:34.290 of surveilling America's weapons supplies, both with human spies and 110 00:07:34.389 --> 00:07:38.279 also with electronic surveillance. So it's not like they're in 111 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:41.699 the dark about this. And from our point of view, yes, 112 00:07:41.740 --> 00:07:46.339 there are probably things that shouldn't be published because they 113 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:50.699 might endanger lives. But we lean pretty heavily on the 114 00:07:50.750 --> 00:07:53.129 side of the public has a right to know about 115 00:07:53.209 --> 00:07:56.990 the state of the American weapons stockpiles. in a war 116 00:07:57.410 --> 00:08:00.930 that Congress had no role in approving, that the president 117 00:08:00.970 --> 00:08:05.290 went to war without even any kind of... Under the Constitution, 118 00:08:05.310 --> 00:08:07.089 the Congress is supposed to declare war. There was no 119 00:08:07.129 --> 00:08:08.110 such thing happened here. 120 00:08:08.129 --> 00:08:12.670 I'm sorry, you said the... Constitution? 121 00:08:12.689 --> 00:08:14.980 Let me write that. I know. It's a quaint notion, right? 122 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:18.600 We don't declare war anymore. We just have military actions 123 00:08:18.620 --> 00:08:21.360 or martial... An excursion. An excursion, exactly. Yeah, that's right. 124 00:08:21.420 --> 00:08:23.079 It's now an excursion, not a war. 125 00:08:23.100 --> 00:08:29.740 That's right. This is actually one area where it's hard 126 00:08:29.779 --> 00:08:32.360 and it's also in some ways easier because there are 127 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:34.940 actual numbers that you can put to it. You can 128 00:08:35.019 --> 00:08:40.399 say there are X number of Patriot interceptors in the 129 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:47.230 European command stocks. There are X number of Javelins, Tomahawks, JASMs, whatever. 130 00:08:47.309 --> 00:08:49.330 Is that accounting generally known? 131 00:08:49.370 --> 00:08:49.470 No. 132 00:08:50.769 --> 00:08:51.289 It's not. 133 00:08:51.509 --> 00:08:53.090 Well, sorry. Now, at this point it is. 134 00:08:53.149 --> 00:08:53.429 Okay. 135 00:08:53.490 --> 00:08:57.029 Largely, frankly, largely because of our reporting and several other 136 00:08:57.389 --> 00:09:03.480 news organizations reporting. But the specifics of just how many 137 00:09:04.009 --> 00:09:07.860 interceptors we have total and in certain commands, that's still 138 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:14.200 not publicly completely known. And that's stuff that we're still 139 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:14.659 working on. 140 00:09:14.940 --> 00:09:18.169 What is the cat and mouse game like? for reporters 141 00:09:18.309 --> 00:09:22.070 at the Pentagon. So Hegseth was very clear, they've removed 142 00:09:22.269 --> 00:09:24.549 so many of the people who were placed at the Pentagon. 143 00:09:24.850 --> 00:09:28.850 Does that make it more difficult? Is this, you talked 144 00:09:28.889 --> 00:09:34.139 about Russia and China have human intelligence, but also electronic 145 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:37.019 surveillance and all kinds of other things. Are you relying 146 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:43.169 on human intelligence? Is it purely based on whether or 147 00:09:43.250 --> 00:09:49.000 not someone will be open to giving you that information 148 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:54.039 without sort of exposing the Keebler Elves secrets of how 149 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:57.370 the cookies are made. I am curious how you are 150 00:09:57.509 --> 00:10:01.179 able to get specifics of those things. And obviously, you 151 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:03.740 don't want to give away operational details that could in 152 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:07.159 any way place people at harm. But you want the 153 00:10:07.179 --> 00:10:10.519 American public to be aware of whether or not there's 154 00:10:10.539 --> 00:10:14.600 a recklessness or what the effects of this has been. 155 00:10:15.100 --> 00:10:20.950 Right. It's not about how the cookies matter. What I'm 156 00:10:21.029 --> 00:10:24.509 very sensitive to is protecting sources because the people who 157 00:10:24.549 --> 00:10:28.190 are giving us this information are taking huge risks. 158 00:10:29.330 --> 00:10:32.649 And what is the risk that, in your mind, is 159 00:10:32.730 --> 00:10:33.950 what they're doing illegal? 160 00:10:34.570 --> 00:10:36.450 I really don't want to comment on the legal side 161 00:10:36.490 --> 00:10:39.309 of things because we're getting... But let's just say generically, 162 00:10:39.629 --> 00:10:42.769 you can go to prison for leaking classified information, okay? 163 00:10:43.049 --> 00:10:45.690 And this information is classified. This is not the kind 164 00:10:45.730 --> 00:10:50.409 of thing that is... known on a kind of military audit? 165 00:10:51.289 --> 00:10:54.769 Again, I don't want to say, no, no, I'm just, 166 00:10:54.929 --> 00:10:58.610 it's difficult. The position I'm in, the position I'm in is, is, 167 00:10:58.809 --> 00:11:01.759 is I just don't want to give any legal ammunition 168 00:11:02.019 --> 00:11:04.620 to the people who are already trying to sue us 169 00:11:04.820 --> 00:11:08.740 and come after us and potentially have an espionage case. 170 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:12.860 Let's just say generically, hypothetically speaking, not anything I've reported on, 171 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:18.049 but hypothetically, um, Information about how many weapons America has 172 00:11:18.250 --> 00:11:21.220 of certain types is some of the most sensitive and 173 00:11:21.250 --> 00:11:24.740 guarded information that we have, particularly how many air defense 174 00:11:24.799 -->

00:11:30.299 interceptors we have left. That is very highly sensitive information, 175 00:11:30.539 --> 00:11:31.580 very highly sensitive. 176 00:11:31.899 --> 00:11:35.659 Is the information about how we went to war a 177 00:11:35.820 --> 00:11:40.379 different category for you than it is the specifics of 178 00:11:40.659 --> 00:11:41.899 operational specifics? 179 00:11:43.070 --> 00:11:46.769 Definitely. And although I will say we've done both. I mean, 180 00:11:46.789 --> 00:11:49.690 even though I'm not going to get into whether I'm 181 00:11:49.730 --> 00:11:52.970 going to describe stuff, both categories are areas that we've 182 00:11:53.009 --> 00:11:58.740 reported in great detail. The going to war is conversations 183 00:11:58.779 --> 00:12:01.419 in the situation room. What was the president briefed on? 184 00:12:02.340 --> 00:12:04.639 What were those conversations? And we, I think, did some 185 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:07.919 of the most detailed reporting on that march to war 186 00:12:08.259 --> 00:12:10.850 and how those decisions were made and what was presented 187 00:12:10.870 --> 00:12:12.169 to the president. Right. 188 00:12:12.580 --> 00:12:16.460 Is this the kind of information, this classified information, that 189 00:12:17.580 --> 00:12:20.879 Donald Trump might safely keep in a Mar-a-Lago bathroom? Is that, 190 00:12:21.820 --> 00:12:26.700 or maybe a box by a car? You know, Jonathan, 191 00:12:27.870 --> 00:12:31.610 have people then talked to you about not just this information, 192 00:12:32.269 --> 00:12:38.350 but their surmise of what this Middle East scenario is 193 00:12:38.409 --> 00:12:42.000 going to look like in the future, you know, obviously 194 00:12:42.039 --> 00:12:45.299 they came out a week into it and said, we won. 195 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:49.490 We have utterly obliterated, not just their nuclear program, but 196 00:12:49.590 --> 00:12:52.129 their ability to, they don't have a Navy. They don't 197 00:12:52.149 --> 00:12:54.029 have an army. They don't have an air force. They 198 00:12:54.049 --> 00:12:56.970 don't have anything. We've won it. We control the straight. 199 00:12:58.029 --> 00:13:02.879 Clearly the information you're getting is the antithesis of that, right? 200 00:13:03.379 --> 00:13:09.320 Does that have any accountability in Washington? and I guess 201 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:11.679 this gets at sort of what I wanted to talk 202 00:13:11.700 --> 00:13:16.909 to you about, which is the frustration between great reporting 203 00:13:17.909 --> 00:13:22.690 and its consequence. And is it difficult, you know, and 204 00:13:22.710 --> 00:13:26.779 maybe I have a kind of hazy nostalgia and this 205 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:31.299 might've been born of a kind of Watergate fable, but 206 00:13:32.110 --> 00:13:33.970 I always think of it as, you know, the Pentagon 207 00:13:34.009 --> 00:13:38.409 Papers drop and suddenly the Vietnam War is no longer 208 00:13:38.490 --> 00:13:43.769 viable and the American public, their conscience is shocked. And 209 00:13:44.509 --> 00:13:47.649 the Watergate reporting done by Woodward and Bernstein shocks the 210 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:49.980 nation into accountability. 211 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:56.379 The biggest difference between now and then is the congressional 212 00:13:56.419 --> 00:14:01.519 branch has just paced out. Right. When you have a 213 00:14:01.580 --> 00:14:07.259 Congress that is inert, you don't actually have– the only 214 00:14:07.299 --> 00:14:11.820 accountability mechanism is the courts and they give. 215 00:14:11.700 --> 00:14:13.779 The president– How's that going? 216 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:17.200 Exactly. Exactly. And they give the president a huge amount 217 00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:21.580 of deference in conduct, particularly foreign policy and national security. 218 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:25.159 And then the press. And so the one thing I 219 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:27.820 will say is it's pretty clear that the American public 220 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.120 is very unhappy with this war. I think that that 221 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.000 is to a large extent based on what they're reading 222 00:14:34.059 --> 00:14:39.679 and seeing and hearing. A lot of reporters have done very, 223 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:41.480 very good work, not just New York Times, but other 224 00:14:41.500 --> 00:14:44.379 places to get out that information. When President Trump says 225 00:14:44.710 --> 00:14:49.309 the Iranian military is completely demolished, decimated, we published a 226 00:14:49.330 --> 00:14:53.210 story saying they regained access to 30 out of 33 227 00:14:53.210 --> 00:14:56.149 of their missile sites, their cruise missile sites along the 228 00:14:56.169 --> 00:14:59.419 Strait of Hormuz. You're not just saying You're wrong. You're 229 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:04.019 actually saying here is real information. Because to me, my 230 00:15:04.059 --> 00:15:09.200 job is about providing information. You can only act on information. 231 00:15:09.259 --> 00:15:13.120 You can't act on a vibe or a feeling. And 232 00:15:13.169 --> 00:15:16.090 so every day I wake up and I try to 233 00:15:16.129 --> 00:15:18.350 get more information out there in the public sphere. So 234 00:15:18.610 --> 00:15:20.690 we've done a lot of reporting, an enormous amount of 235 00:15:20.710 --> 00:15:23.690 reporting about this war and try to inform the public. 236 00:15:24.590 --> 00:15:31.700 But the accountability mechanism doesn't really exist. I'm sure if 237 00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:34.860 Democrats take the House, there'll be investigations and what have you. 238 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:44.679 But I think people are under-appreciating just how difficult oversight 239 00:15:44.700 --> 00:15:49.950 will be potentially in this administration and what happens if 240 00:15:51.429 --> 00:15:56.580 the administration essentially refuses to cooperate. with congressional oversight, congressional

subpoenas, 241 00:15:57.139 --> 00:16:01.419 there isn't a Congress jail. There's no place that... Congress 242 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:02.000 doesn't have. 243 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:04.539 Right. It's not like a stadium where in the bottom 244 00:16:04.580 --> 00:16:07.179 of it, there's a dungeon where people that throw rocks 245 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:08.740 get put in. Right. Exactly. 246 00:16:09.179 --> 00:16:12.429 The enforcement mechanism is Congress says, this is really bad 247 00:16:12.490 --> 00:16:14.769 and we're going to refer it to the Justice Department. 248 00:16:14.970 --> 00:16:17.990 The Justice Department that is run by Donald Trump's personal lawyer, 249 00:16:18.210 --> 00:16:18.889 former personal lawyer. 250 00:16:19.350 --> 00:16:19.649 Okay. 251 00:16:20.090 --> 00:16:23.710 So that's what we're dealing with in terms of accountability. 252 00:16:30.500 --> 00:16:32.620 I hate the news. I hate what it's doing to 253 00:16:32.659 --> 00:16:35.879 me emotionally. I hate that you don't really know where 254 00:16:35.899 --> 00:16:38.470 the information is coming from. Sometimes you don't know how 255 00:16:38.539 --> 00:16:42.970 it's being manipulated and it adds to the creeping fog 256 00:16:43.009 --> 00:16:45.750 of sadness that grows. But I have to keep up. 257 00:16:45.809 --> 00:16:47.350 I have to understand what's going on in the world. 258 00:16:47.610 --> 00:16:50.750 And that's why Ground News, they've got a website. It's 259 00:16:50.789 --> 00:16:54.509 an app. It lets you compare news coverage across the 260 00:16:54.529 --> 00:16:56.570 board to understand what's going on in the world. how 261 00:16:56.649 --> 00:17:00.950 you're being zoomed. Do you know what I'm saying? You 262 00:17:00.970 --> 00:17:05.000 can see how different news outlets will frame the same story. 263 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:08.339 They've got a blind spot feed so you can challenge 264 00:17:08.380 --> 00:17:12.940 yourself about your news consumption. You'll see who owns what 265 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:16.960 news outlet to understand why they're framing the stories the 266 00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:21.589 way they are. This is the one you should get 267 00:17:21.609 --> 00:17:25.759 a hold of. Enlighten yourself, please. To get the same 268 00:17:25.819 --> 00:17:30.579 unlimited access to the Vantage subscription, go to groundnews.com slash 269 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:34.079 Stuart and subscribe to get 40% off. Discount only available 270 00:17:34.099 --> 00:17:38.029 for a limited time. That's groundnews.com slash Stuart or scan 271 00:17:38.049 --> 00:17:45.089 the QR code on screen. I hate to frame it 272 00:17:45.109 --> 00:17:47.430 in this way, but it's sort of the difference between 273 00:17:48.289 --> 00:17:54.319 information and evidence. You know, The information is just sort 274 00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.019 of a broad base. This is what's going on. But 275 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:06.160 some of it is evidence of malfeasance

or of secretive 276 00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:10.329 nature or misleading. And so much of the information that 277 00:18:10.349 --> 00:18:15.910 you put out there could also qualify as evidence. And 278 00:18:15.990 --> 00:18:18.569 how do you look at the two of those as 279 00:18:18.609 --> 00:18:21.990 you're going through? Is there a goal in your mind of, okay, 280 00:18:22.549 --> 00:18:26.369 They're saying this and this and this have been depleted 281 00:18:26.569 --> 00:18:29.609 and otherwise. And you're saying, but the information we have, 282 00:18:30.470 --> 00:18:37.640 and when you discover the discrepancy, is that information now evidence? 283 00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:44.940 Well, evidence in a sort of colloquial sense, yes. But 284 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:50.890 I don't think there's any prospect of a legal evidence. proceeding. 285 00:18:50.950 --> 00:18:53.269 I mean, one thing that has been really notable about 286 00:18:53.309 --> 00:18:58.009 this term is just how influential the Supreme Court's 2024 287 00:18:58.009 --> 00:18:59.630 immunity ruling was. 288 00:19:00.130 --> 00:19:02.109 You felt that you feel the difference of that. 289 00:19:02.509 --> 00:19:04.849 Oh. 290 00:19:06.309 --> 00:19:07.579 I think you just got nauseous. 291 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:08.519 Oh my gosh. 292 00:19:08.900 --> 00:19:09.220 Beyond. 293 00:19:09.500 --> 00:19:14.369 So in term one, covering Trump, it was... I can't 294 00:19:14.470 --> 00:19:17.210 overstate this. I'm not saying he changed that much in 295 00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:19.759 terms of his deep character or anything like that, but 296 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:25.099 it's unrecognizable. They were, certainly in the White House counsel's office, 297 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:29.619 quite cautious. People in the White House administration were prohibited 298 00:19:29.660 --> 00:19:32.569 from talking to the DOJ. There was a real attempt 299 00:19:32.609 --> 00:19:36.150 to enforce some kind of a firewall. That's why Trump 300 00:19:36.210 --> 00:19:39.000 kept having to do these Sort of talk to this person. 301 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.559 Can you please whisper in Jeff Sessions' ear? You know, 302 00:19:43.019 --> 00:19:44.640 that's all being obliterated. 303 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:47.630 You felt there was real caution there. Who was, can 304 00:19:47.670 --> 00:19:50.869 you recall, who were the White House counsel? people then? 305 00:19:51.170 --> 00:19:52.539 I know Sessions was the. 306 00:19:52.539 --> 00:19:56.279 Early- Don McGahn, Pat Cipollone. 307 00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:57.460 And they're gone. 308 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:02.440 Oh, beyond gone. But it's not really just a story 309 00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:04.720 about the White House. It's really just about Trump. I mean, 310 00:20:04.819 --> 00:20:10.180 he feels that no one can touch him. And understandably so. 311 00:20:10.299 --> 00:20:13.000 I mean, we had reporting in our book that he's 312 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:15.660 been

saying privately that he's going to pardon anyone who 313 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:18.309 came within 200 feet of the Oval Office. He literally 314 00:20:18.349 --> 00:20:20.170 said that. And he says it in this sort of 315 00:20:20.210 --> 00:20:21.890 joking way, but you kind of know it's not a 316 00:20:21.910 --> 00:20:25.049 joke because certainly the way he was at the end 317 00:20:25.109 --> 00:20:27.900 of the first administration– I mean, I spoke to a 318 00:20:27.910 --> 00:20:30.519 senior official who was working in the first administration, and 319 00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:34.599 they're actually kind of a clean sort of by-the-book type person. 320 00:20:34.910 --> 00:20:36.470 And they were sitting with Trump and Trump's like, do 321 00:20:36.490 --> 00:20:40.210 you want a pardon? And they were like, for what? 322 00:20:40.690 --> 00:20:43.230 What would I want a pardon for? But that was 323 00:20:43.269 --> 00:20:45.309 at the end of the first term. And now you've 324 00:20:45.349 --> 00:20:51.579 seen how the pardon system has evolved. So how would 325 00:20:51.619 --> 00:20:54.519 I even qualify? I'll give you another example that just 326 00:20:54.539 --> 00:20:58.720 shows how different it is and how much freer he 327 00:20:58.779 --> 00:21:03.380 feels to act. So term one, Trump used to say, 328 00:21:04.099 --> 00:21:09.400 almost yearningly, he'd say, we talk about drugs. He'd say, 329 00:21:10.259 --> 00:21:13.569 there's no drug problem in China because Xi just kills them. 330 00:21:13.789 --> 00:21:16.470 He just kills them, kills the drug dealers. He goes, 331 00:21:16.670 --> 00:21:19.730 there's no problem in the Philippines because he just kills them. 332 00:21:20.069 --> 00:21:20.490 That's right. 333 00:21:20.529 --> 00:21:26.259 Well, this term, what happened? Donald Trump said, I am 334 00:21:26.339 --> 00:21:31.779 going to determine myself that people in fishing boats who 335 00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:36.299 are trafficking cocaine. Maybe. We actually don't necessarily know that 336 00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:39.440 all of them were, but let's just take their word 337 00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:40.849 for it. Let's take their word for it that these 338 00:21:40.900 --> 00:21:45.069 people are all trafficking cocaine on fishing boats. Usually, that's 339 00:21:45.109 --> 00:21:49.269 a law enforcement problem. The Coast Guard interdicts them. You're arrested. 340 00:21:49.289 --> 00:21:54.809 There's a proceeding. There's due process. Trump said, we'll just 341 00:21:54.829 --> 00:21:58.130 kill them. We're just going to call them enemy combatants, 342 00:21:59.190 --> 00:22:05.250 describe this as essentially a war, and kill them. There's 343 00:22:05.309 --> 00:22:08.750 no appeal process when your body is scattered at the 344 00:22:08.789 --> 00:22:13.339 bottom of an ocean after being blown up. There's no 345 00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:15.839 appeal process. You can't put your limbs back together and 346 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:19.859 go and say, hey, actually, this way. That's what's happening. 347 00:22:20.500 --> 00:22:25.039 They didn't really even bother to justify it legally. One 348 00:22:25.059 --> 00:22:28.210 of the biggest things that Stephen Miller and others did 349 00:22:28.309 --> 00:22:31.440 between Term 1 and Term 2 was was change the 350 00:22:31.509 --> 00:22:35.730 types of lawyers that they staff the administration. More aggressive lawyers, 351 00:22:35.769 --> 00:22:38.170 lawyers who are willing to push the envelope, lawyers who 352 00:22:38.230 --> 00:22:41.150 are willing to get to yes and not put up 353 00:22:41.210 --> 00:22:46.130 a no. Their internal legal opinion basically greenlit this whole 354 00:22:46.190 --> 00:22:48.750 operation of blowing up boats. In term one, you had 355 00:22:48.970 --> 00:22:51.109 people like Mark Esper, the defense secretary, and others saying, 356 00:22:51.829 --> 00:22:55.789 absolutely not. This would never have flown in term one. 357 00:22:56.349 --> 00:23:00.150 It's interesting that they still feel the need to even 358 00:23:00.230 --> 00:23:05.200 make a kind of theatrical move towards justification legally. 359 00:23:05.420 --> 00:23:07.660 But they didn't really, John. It was like they didn't 360 00:23:07.700 --> 00:23:09.920 even publicize it. It's not like they put out and said, 361 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:10.880 here's our legal theory. 362 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:14.900 Here's the framework around it. Here's why we're doing it. No, no, no, no, no. 363 00:23:14.980 --> 00:23:17.789 It was like, you know, basically take our word for it. 364 00:23:17.789 --> 00:23:20.869 This is legal. They didn't sort of go to great 365 00:23:20.930 --> 00:23:23.829 lengths to make a legal justification to the public. 366 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:28.920 Do you think this is the learned effect of, and 367 00:23:28.940 --> 00:23:30.880 I don't want to blame everything on January 6th, but 368 00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:36.339 January 6th, and January 6th was the culmination of a strategy. People, 369 00:23:36.380 --> 00:23:38.039 I think, like to point to that day as, boy, 370 00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:40.240 that was just a day that got out of hand 371 00:23:40.299 --> 00:23:44.359 and chaotic. But I thought it really was the culmination 372 00:23:44.900 --> 00:23:49.630 of a very intentional strategy that began right after the 373 00:23:49.690 --> 00:23:53.609 election in He loses. His first idea is, well, I'll 374 00:23:53.650 --> 00:23:55.730 just call up the states that I lost and say, 375 00:23:56.579 --> 00:23:59.710 can you flip those votes, please? Because, you know, I 376 00:23:59.779 --> 00:24:02.720 actually won. And when that didn't work, he sort of 377 00:24:02.779 --> 00:24:06.980 started the process of, you know, then I'll go after 378 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:11.019 the people that certify the election. So I'll call the 379 00:24:11.299 --> 00:24:15.829 Republicans in Michigan or Wisconsin and I'll say,

don't certify it. 380 00:24:16.740 --> 00:24:19.230 And when that didn't work, He went to the next stage. 381 00:24:19.259 --> 00:24:24.500 But at each stage, there were meetings. And he was 382 00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:27.980 meeting with a team going, what else can we do? 383 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:32.400 And I always assumed that what ultimately came to him 384 00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:38.380 was they said, this is your final chance. If they 385 00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:43.589 certify this in the Congress, it's over. So if Mike 386 00:24:43.650 --> 00:24:49.349 Pence doesn't somehow, you know, do the right thing and 387 00:24:49.390 --> 00:24:52.369 stand up and not certify it that's your last chance 388 00:24:52.390 --> 00:24:55.569 your only other chance is to disrupt the proceeding and 389 00:24:55.630 --> 00:24:58.730 maybe then that thing gets kicked into the house of 390 00:24:58.779 --> 00:25:03.619 representatives and maybe then they could they could just decide 391 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.759 because we have the advantage there that you're the president 392 00:25:07.779 --> 00:25:10.059 is that where he learned because there were so many 393 00:25:10.099 --> 00:25:13.240 lawyers that said you know including bill barr that's nonsense 394 00:25:13.299 --> 00:25:16.950 you lost you can't do this he lawyer shopped He 395 00:25:17.069 --> 00:25:19.849 ended up with people like Sidney, whatever her name was, 396 00:25:19.890 --> 00:25:24.170 and Eastman and all those people that would do that bidding. 397 00:25:24.509 --> 00:25:27.170 And is that when he realized, oh, I don't need 398 00:25:27.190 --> 00:25:30.369 to change the law. I just need to change the 399 00:25:30.430 --> 00:25:33.029 people who will help me justify what I want to do. 400 00:25:34.069 --> 00:25:37.490 Yeah. The only part of that that I don't have 401 00:25:37.529 --> 00:25:41.329 any supporting reporting for is I don't think that they 402 00:25:41.390 --> 00:25:45.250 expected the riot at the Capitol. I really don't expect 403 00:25:45.549 --> 00:25:48.190 that part of it. But everything up until that point, yeah, 404 00:25:48.289 --> 00:25:51.259 I really don't think... I think that surprised them, came 405 00:25:51.299 --> 00:25:54.440 as a real surprise. But everything up until that point 406 00:25:54.579 --> 00:25:58.680 was an effort to use every lever to overturn the election. 407 00:25:58.940 --> 00:26:02.720 And what happened was, it's not like he had a 408 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:07.279 bunch of lawyers working for him that were squishes, as 409 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:10.819 they would say. These were loyalists. These were hardcore Trump people. 410 00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:14.549 But they said, no, this is We don't have it. 411 00:26:14.809 --> 00:26:15.309 We don't have it. 412 00:26:15.309 --> 00:26:16.750 We just don't have it. But he lawyer shopped in 413 00:26:16.789 --> 00:26:20.109 the way that somebody who wants pills would doctor shop. 414 00:26:20.569 --> 00:26:23.200 That's exactly right. And so that's how you get a 415 00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:27.440 legal team that comprised Sidney Power, Rudy Giuliani, and the others. 416 00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:33.339 And so I think that that is something that he was... 417 00:26:33.700 --> 00:26:38.170 Trump would already do that in other areas. So when 418 00:26:38.190 --> 00:26:41.690 he wouldn't get the answer he wanted from his military 419 00:26:42.029 --> 00:26:45.049 generals or whatever, he was going out and talking to 420 00:26:45.150 --> 00:26:47.369 others that he might see on Fox or other places. 421 00:26:47.930 --> 00:26:50.670 I just think what happened was this term round, he 422 00:26:50.730 --> 00:26:54.519 came back with a very clear determination that I'm not 423 00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:56.740 even going to have that first step. I'm just not 424 00:26:56.759 --> 00:26:58.579 going to have people around me who are doing that 425 00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:01.779 type of pushback. And so you just clear out that 426 00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:06.509 first step and start with the second step. And that's 427 00:27:06.569 --> 00:27:07.549 basically where we're at. 428 00:27:08.049 --> 00:27:14.349 And it's so interesting because term one was considered such 429 00:27:14.430 --> 00:27:21.049 an aberration from traditional American presidencies that the idea that 430 00:27:21.329 --> 00:27:26.490 term two is almost unrecognizable even to term one, which 431 00:27:26.670 --> 00:27:31.950 at the time we thought, my God, this is utterly 432 00:27:32.049 --> 00:27:37.700 pushing the bounds of executive power and of the way that, 433 00:27:38.859 --> 00:27:42.920 you know, the executive functions as opposed to congressional oversight. 434 00:27:43.539 --> 00:27:45.359 We thought that was an aberration. 435 00:27:46.269 --> 00:27:49.369 I mean, Term 1 looks like the Eisenhower administration compared 436 00:27:49.390 --> 00:27:52.930 to what we're dealing with now. 437 00:27:53.410 --> 00:27:59.150 That just makes me sad. And Term 1, though, was 438 00:27:59.470 --> 00:28:02.660 all leaks. Would you say that's... Yeah. Like, Term 1, 439 00:28:02.660 --> 00:28:05.380 people just came to you. How do you... So now, 440 00:28:07.539 --> 00:28:10.519 is it all deep throat in a garage? Like, how 441 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:13.529 does it work now for you? Now that they have... 442 00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:19.500 removed so many of the avenues of oversight, how does 443 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:21.759 anything– and maybe do they get to the point where 444 00:28:22.259 --> 00:28:25.039 that information, they don't believe it hurts them anyway? Do 445 00:28:25.059 --> 00:28:26.039 they not even care? 446 00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:28.339 No, they care. 447 00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:29.380 They still care. 448 00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:33.759 He still– he certainly does. Term one, the leaks were 449 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:38.059 largely a product of fighting, of people– factional

warfare, people 450 00:28:38.119 --> 00:28:40.019 trying to destroy each other. Jared Kushner is trying to 451 00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:42.809 destroy– Steve Bannon is trying to destroy Jared Kushner, et cetera, 452 00:28:42.829 --> 00:28:46.259 et cetera. and things break out. You have camps and 453 00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:49.799 they're all at war. That's how a lot of the 454 00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:53.400 leaking came about. The reason you've seen so much less 455 00:28:53.700 --> 00:28:56.809 inside the room reporting for this administration is because it's 456 00:28:56.869 --> 00:28:59.170 just much harder, just much, much, much harder. 457 00:28:59.470 --> 00:29:02.730 They don't have those factions anymore. There are not people vying. 458 00:29:02.410 --> 00:29:07.470 For- It's much more subtle. It's not really factions. Sometimes 459 00:29:07.509 --> 00:29:11.009 I'll see commentary that suggests that there's sort of very 460 00:29:11.089 --> 00:29:13.509 bright light. It's not really the way it works. It's 461 00:29:13.549 --> 00:29:17.190 a team that, yes, there are little nuances here and there, 462 00:29:17.269 --> 00:29:20.220 but they're basically all people who believe in Trump, who 463 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:23.500 want to work for him, who want to implement what 464 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:27.000 he has to do, are not pushing back and trying 465 00:29:27.019 --> 00:29:30.940 to stop him. In the first term, routinely, we would 466 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:33.130 talk to, for those of us covering him, talk to 467 00:29:33.150 --> 00:29:37.049 very senior officials who thought that Donald Trump was dangerous 468 00:29:38.130 --> 00:29:40.160 and saw their job as protecting the country and the 469 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:43.119 world from Donald Trump. That's really what they would say explicitly. 470 00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:47.980 They felt they were there as kind of a firewall. 471 00:29:47.980 --> 00:29:52.990 100%. 100%. There's no one at a meaningful senior level 472 00:29:53.190 --> 00:29:55.349 who believes that in this administration. Zero. 473 00:29:56.069 --> 00:30:01.279 But at what point, Jonathan, does reality– begin to erode 474 00:30:01.380 --> 00:30:05.869 that fantasy or that facade, you know, JD Vance, who 475 00:30:05.990 --> 00:30:10.509 I think is a pure creation of ambition. I don't 476 00:30:10.589 --> 00:30:13.529 believe there's anything, you know, he has his ideas or whatever, 477 00:30:13.569 --> 00:30:15.529 but I think he is all strategy where they say 478 00:30:15.569 --> 00:30:19.079 like all hat, no cattle, but he's all strategy, no principle. 479 00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:22.599 So he sits in the oval office or stands as 480 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:26.099 Donald Trump sits and says, these other presidents got us 481 00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:30.920 involved in these wars and, Because they're stupid. But Donald 482 00:30:30.940 --> 00:30:35.329 Trump is smart. And he was talking about Iran. We're 483 00:30:35.369 -->

00:30:37.809 in this war with Iran, but it won't turn badly 484 00:30:37.849 --> 00:30:42.410 because Donald Trump is smart. Well, now that it's turned badly, 485 00:30:43.150 --> 00:30:47.910 do they deny that it's turned? They can't truly believe 486 00:30:47.970 --> 00:30:53.720 that it's going well. So at what point does reality 487 00:30:53.740 --> 00:31:01.779 erode their belief in his powers of even basic competence. 488 00:31:03.339 --> 00:31:05.779 Well, Vance is probably a bad example because he was 489 00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:09.220 actually the single person at that senior level, at the 490 00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:12.000 inner circle, who actually argued against the war in the 491 00:31:12.039 --> 00:31:16.680 meetings with Trump. It cost him. It really, Trump did 492 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:19.269 not want to hear it. We've spoken to people who 493 00:31:19.309 --> 00:31:22.789 talked to Trump at the time he was complaining about Vance. 494 00:31:23.430 --> 00:31:26.680 Vance actually made a case against the war before the war. 495 00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:29.740 But publicly what he made the case for was it 496 00:31:29.779 --> 00:31:31.880 won't go badly because this guy's so smart. 497 00:31:32.180 --> 00:31:39.359 Right. And that's just, I mean, you know, you know. 498 00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:42.549 But my point is, if they're loyalists who believe in 499 00:31:42.589 --> 00:31:46.849 Donald Trump, where is the evidence for their belief other 500 00:31:46.890 --> 00:31:52.109 than he's great at becoming president and shitty at being president? 501 00:31:53.089 --> 00:31:55.210 Well, it's hard to know what a lot of them 502 00:31:55.329 --> 00:32:00.670 actually think, right? Because I don't want to sort of 503 00:32:01.309 --> 00:32:03.730 go beyond what I have in terms of reporting. It's 504 00:32:03.769 --> 00:32:12.599 sometimes really hard to untangle personal ambition, pragmatism, cynicism, what 505 00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:16.279 you need to do to survive, the stories you tell yourself, 506 00:32:16.339 --> 00:32:19.500 all that stuff. It's very hard to untangle. And I'm 507 00:32:19.579 --> 00:32:24.450 sure it's much more nuanced than... I mean, There's a spectrum, right? 508 00:32:24.490 --> 00:32:30.490 Not everyone is Natalie Harp. You don't think they're. 509 00:32:30.210 --> 00:32:33.130 All just writing love letters? 510 00:32:33.609 --> 00:32:36.250 No, they're not. We had reporting in the book, for example, 511 00:32:36.269 --> 00:32:40.670 just to give you an example, when Trump starts a 512 00:32:40.710 --> 00:32:46.960 trade war with the whole world, Scott Besant understands bond markets. 513 00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:50.440 He could see what was happening in the bond markets. 514 00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:57.740 Him and Howard Lutnick- Even Howard Blutnick, who has said 515 00:32:57.799 --> 00:33:00.700 all kinds of flattering things about Donald Trump, both of 516 00:33:00.740 --> 00:33:05.819 them privately realized this

could really go wrong. This could 517 00:33:05.859 --> 00:33:08.319 really go off the edge, and they made a case 518 00:33:08.339 --> 00:33:10.069 to pull back on the tariffs, and Trump did. He 519 00:33:10.109 --> 00:33:14.029 put a pause on tariffs for just about every country, 520 00:33:14.049 --> 00:33:17.210 I think, except for China. There are moments of that, 521 00:33:17.269 --> 00:33:22.029 and if it was just total blind– Natalie Harp level adoration, 522 00:33:22.069 --> 00:33:24.589 you wouldn't have an episode like that. 523 00:33:25.289 --> 00:33:30.460 You wouldn't even see it. So they're still reacting at 524 00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:36.119 some level to the reality-based community. 525 00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:37.660 Yeah, absolutely. 526 00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:43.630 And they're making changes. What form might that take when 527 00:33:43.670 --> 00:33:46.710 it comes to the Iran war? Or is that such 528 00:33:46.930 --> 00:33:51.920 a clusterfuck at this point? There's almost, they don't have 529 00:33:51.980 --> 00:33:55.769 the same ability to do what they were doing with 530 00:33:55.789 --> 00:33:56.349 the tariffs. 531 00:33:56.970 --> 00:33:59.089 They certainly don't. I mean, one of the- And by 532 00:33:59.109 --> 00:33:59.309 the way. 533 00:33:59.329 --> 00:34:02.509 The crying that you hear in the background happens in 534 00:34:02.789 --> 00:34:04.869 all of my interviews. It's not just- Oh, can you 535 00:34:04.890 --> 00:34:08.110 actually hear it? Oh, I can hear it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, 536 00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:12.019 I'm so, Jonathan, I'm so attuned. Like, I immediately want 537 00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:14.460 to go like, oh, are you, like, once you have 538 00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:15.860 kids- Oh, that's bad. 539 00:34:16.099 --> 00:34:17.420 Just give me one sec. One sec. 540 00:34:18.099 --> 00:34:29.130 Let's go to commercial. Oh, you know, I like to 541 00:34:29.210 --> 00:34:33.369 sleep because I'm old, but you know, when you're old, 542 00:34:33.969 --> 00:34:37.289 where you sleep matters more than most things. You'd be surprised. 543 00:34:37.329 --> 00:34:39.969 When I was younger, I could fall asleep on tile, 544 00:34:40.989 --> 00:34:45.320 in a backyard, on a bench. When you get older, 545 00:34:45.340 --> 00:34:47.179 you got to have yourself a little bit of the comfort. 546 00:34:47.730 --> 00:34:50.869 And that's where the avocado green mattress comes in, man. 547 00:34:51.150 --> 00:34:54.889 Avocado green mattress. And before you ask, again, they're not 548 00:34:54.949 --> 00:34:58.349 made from avocados. Let's not be crazy, people. It's the name. 549 00:34:59.289 --> 00:35:03.090 So if you could please not keep asking them that. 550 00:35:03.269 --> 00:35:08.489 I think they're not actual avocados. Avocado mattress is designed 551 00:35:08.690 --> 00:35:13.130 for comfort, support, helping your body stay aligned. You know, 552 00:35:13.170 --> 00:35:18.039 the last time my body was aligned, it's been... I 553 00:35:18.139 --> 00:35:20.119 think it might have been the last time the Mets 554 00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.440 won the World Series. That's how long it's been since 555 00:35:23.480 --> 00:35:26.610 it's been a line. But these mattresses, avocado green mattress, 556 00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:31.590 responsibly sourced organic materials that are built to last. So 557 00:35:31.630 --> 00:35:36.369 get an avocado green mattress. Avocado products are made, not manufactured, 558 00:35:36.610 --> 00:35:40.989 and thoughtfully crafted with real materials to deliver lasting comfort 559 00:35:41.030 --> 00:35:43.329 and support. You can experience them in person at an 560 00:35:43.389 --> 00:35:47.190 avocado showroom. or a premier retailer near you, or shop 561 00:35:47.250 --> 00:35:51.820 online at avocadogreenmattress.com slash TWS to check out their mattress 562 00:35:51.860 --> 00:36:09.670 and furniture sale. It's avocadogreenmattress.com slash TWS. avocadogreenmattress.com slash TWS. Period. Now, 563 00:36:09.829 --> 00:36:12.110 that's a baby cry. That's not a six-year-old. That's not 564 00:36:12.150 --> 00:36:12.590 a four-year-old. 565 00:36:12.630 --> 00:36:14.380 It's a three-week-old. Three week old. 566 00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:18.460 Can I tell you something, man? I like my wife. 567 00:36:18.760 --> 00:36:22.440 So I would come home from work and I remember 568 00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:26.320 I'd be like, you know, I had such a tough day. 569 00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:28.219 And I'm like, my wife would just look at me like, 570 00:36:28.449 --> 00:36:30.889 I'm going to throw you off the roof. I'm going 571 00:36:30.909 --> 00:36:33.469 to punch you in the face. And I can remember 572 00:36:33.550 --> 00:36:35.590 one day I was like, you go out, I'll take 573 00:36:35.630 --> 00:36:41.389 care and I'll be fine. He cried like that nonstop 574 00:36:41.409 --> 00:36:45.019 the whole time she was gone. She comes back. I'm 575 00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:50.960 in the bathroom, door closed, with a hairdryer on. Because 576 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:53.630 I think that she had told me, like, weirdly, like, 577 00:36:53.670 --> 00:36:57.989 if you turn on the hairdryer, he'll stop crying. I'm sweating. 578 00:36:58.849 --> 00:37:03.550 I'm crying. I'm holding a hairdryer like it's a weapon. 579 00:37:04.110 --> 00:37:07.840 And she just, I said to her, like, you go relax. 580 00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:11.510 She literally opens the door and is like, I was 581 00:37:11.610 --> 00:37:15.719 gone for an hour. Oh, shit. 582 00:37:16.300 --> 00:37:19.400 I very much have had not exactly the hairdryer, but 583 00:37:20.980 --> 00:37:23.980 it's like you get a new appreciation for them, right? 584 00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:25.760 For your wife. 585 00:37:26.619 --> 00:37:27.380 Dear God. 586 00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:28.539 It's something. 587 00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:29.500 It is something. 588 00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:33.780 Sorry. Your question was about Iran

and- Yes. I think 589 00:37:33.860 --> 00:37:39.940 one of the biggest problems that American presidents face tend 590 00:37:39.980 --> 00:37:43.480 to have, and Trump has to the extreme, is the 591 00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:47.920 misconception that you can control events anywhere, that you have 592 00:37:47.980 --> 00:37:53.349 the power to control events everywhere. And Trump seemed to 593 00:37:53.389 --> 00:37:57.469 believe at an almost cellular level that, and I don't 594 00:37:57.489 --> 00:37:59.690 know if it was the power of positive thinking or whatever, 595 00:37:59.730 --> 00:38:00.210 but before. 596 00:38:00.230 --> 00:38:02.389 I think that, I mean, he is a Norman Vincent 597 00:38:02.429 --> 00:38:05.860 Peale guy. Yes, totally. He was raised in the church 598 00:38:06.059 --> 00:38:10.409 of Norman, but that is his- Totally. lodestar. 599 00:38:10.809 --> 00:38:14.349 He believed before the war, despite everything he'd been briefed, 600 00:38:14.670 --> 00:38:18.670 that the Iranian regime would collapse really quickly. When that 601 00:38:18.730 --> 00:38:22.050 is your operating assumption, when that is infused through everything, 602 00:38:22.630 --> 00:38:27.630 considerations like the Strait of Hormuz stockpiles, they all are 603 00:38:27.690 --> 00:38:30.630 not considerations because if the premise is this regime is 604 00:38:30.650 --> 00:38:34.420 going to collapse like that, These problems don't end up happening. 605 00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:39.619 When that didn't happen, you saw this– I mean, Trump– 606 00:38:40.099 --> 00:38:42.360 we have reported that early on, first few weeks of 607 00:38:42.380 --> 00:38:46.420 the war, Trump almost couldn't fathom that the Iranians were 608 00:38:46.460 --> 00:38:49.000 still fighting, that they still had fight left in them. 609 00:38:49.139 --> 00:38:52.159 He was asking General Kane, the chairman of the Joint 610 00:38:52.179 --> 00:38:56.739 Chiefs of Staff– Raising Kane. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've still 611 00:38:56.760 --> 00:38:59.710 got fight left in them. They're still doing this. He 612 00:38:59.769 --> 00:39:01.469 did not believe that they were going to be as 613 00:39:01.530 --> 00:39:05.949 resilient as they ended up being. We saw him pivot 614 00:39:06.030 --> 00:39:12.590 to diplomacy by April. Obviously, it has not gone well 615 00:39:12.630 --> 00:39:15.250 at all. They had the Memorandum of Understanding that they 616 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:17.860 unveiled in June, which was hailed as the end of 617 00:39:17.900 --> 00:39:23.360 the war. The 60-day deadline expired in August, where now 618 00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:28.449 last night was heavy strikes on the Jordanian– the US 619 00:39:28.489 --> 00:39:29.349 base in Jordan. 620 00:39:29.369 --> 00:39:29.510 Mm-hmm. 621 00:39:30.340 --> 00:39:32.880 Back and forth, further apart than they were, the two 622 00:39:32.940 --> 00:39:39.929 sides with the MOU. Trump has been wildly flailing from 623 00:39:40.510 --> 00:39:46.920 kinetic action to diplomacy, coercion, and does not have anything 624 00:39:46.940 --> 00:39:50.860 that you could describe as a strategy here. So that's 625 00:39:51.059 --> 00:39:52.239 where we're at right now. 626 00:39:53.139 --> 00:39:56.119 And again, and I so appreciate you do something that 627 00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:58.760 I think very few other journalists do, which is you 628 00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:03.230 refuse to speculate beyond the measure of your knowledge, which 629 00:40:03.269 --> 00:40:06.809 I think is admirable. And it's the antithesis of cable 630 00:40:06.849 --> 00:40:10.269 news television, which is just 24 hours of like, what 631 00:40:10.289 --> 00:40:12.260 do you think it means? And people just go out 632 00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:18.440 over their skis. In your experience, though, with Trump, when 633 00:40:18.519 --> 00:40:24.530 reality punctures that power of positive thinking, have you ever 634 00:40:24.610 --> 00:40:26.750 seen him? You know, you've been involved in two really 635 00:40:26.789 --> 00:40:29.750 interesting interviews with him. The first one, I think, was 2018, 636 00:40:29.750 --> 00:40:34.219 where you were talking about birthright citizenship. And he mentioned, 637 00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:35.699 you know, we're the only country in the world that 638 00:40:35.719 --> 00:40:39.360 has birthright citizenship. And you didn't say that's not true. 639 00:40:40.190 --> 00:40:41.789 And people really went after you on that. 640 00:40:42.230 --> 00:40:43.469 It was a terrible bad interview. 641 00:40:43.889 --> 00:40:46.769 Yeah. Well, and you came out and said, you know, 642 00:40:47.269 --> 00:40:52.809 my bad. 2020 was the opposite. You sat down with 643 00:40:52.849 --> 00:40:56.230 him about COVID and he was making statements and you 644 00:40:58.030 --> 00:41:02.510 steadfast and he brought up something and I think it 645 00:41:02.550 --> 00:41:05.329 was about, what was it? The death rate? 646 00:41:05.650 --> 00:41:06.710 Yeah. 647 00:41:06.929 --> 00:41:09.750 And you were saying, well, that's not how it's calculated. 648 00:41:10.280 --> 00:41:14.280 It's per capita and we're not doing great. We're doing badly. 649 00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:19.960 And people hailed that. Do you notice a difference when 650 00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:24.380 you are in front of him and you provide him 651 00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:32.920 with irrefutable evidence of reality? How does he absorb that? 652 00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:38.719 Does he absorb it? Did you find that that made 653 00:41:39.570 --> 00:41:45.489 inroads into his future, you know, framing of issues. How 654 00:41:45.570 --> 00:41:54.110 does he absorb reality? I can't believe we're asking this 655 00:41:54.170 --> 00:41:58.369 question about the president of the United States. How does 656 00:41:58.429 --> 00:42:02.949 he deal with reality because his world is so distorted? 657 00:42:04.110 --> 00:42:06.949 So I think there are, there are

realities that are 658 00:42:06.989 --> 00:42:13.679 just too intrusive. to ignore. So things like the bond markets, 659 00:42:14.860 --> 00:42:22.289 the price of gas, when American service members die, and 660 00:42:23.510 --> 00:42:27.190 even then he'll still try to spin it publicly. But 661 00:42:27.230 --> 00:42:32.409 it's pretty clear from his actions since April that reality 662 00:42:32.449 --> 00:42:37.119 has intruded because he's changed course. This is not he 663 00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:40.980 hasn't continued to escalate this war. He's trying whatever he 664 00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:42.420 can do to get out of this war. It's just 665 00:42:42.460 --> 00:42:44.940 not working. Iran has a vote in that. Iran is 666 00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:48.349 extending the pain. It feels like they have leverage. But 667 00:42:48.570 --> 00:42:50.449 it wouldn't be true to say that Donald Trump was 668 00:42:50.570 --> 00:42:54.329 oblivious to reality, because why then would you authorize your 669 00:42:54.349 --> 00:42:56.889 team to go and negotiate a settlement? You don't do 670 00:42:56.929 --> 00:43:02.590 that if you genuinely think you're winning. You don't say, oh, Vance, Kushner, Witkoff, 671 00:43:02.610 --> 00:43:04.409 go and get me a deal to get out of 672 00:43:04.429 --> 00:43:06.550 this war. If you think you're crushing it and they're 673 00:43:06.570 --> 00:43:09.960 totally decimated, you've won. You don't do that. So by 674 00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.880 his own actions, it's clear, even if he's not willing 675 00:43:12.900 --> 00:43:17.260 to admit it publicly, that he acknowledges some degree of 676 00:43:17.300 --> 00:43:18.920 reality in this war. 677 00:43:19.989 --> 00:43:23.679 Because he does seem to have what he falls back on. 678 00:43:23.690 --> 00:43:26.389 Because I'll say, in terms of gas prices, he'll just 679 00:43:26.429 --> 00:43:30.239 come out and say, They're actually not very high. I 680 00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:32.260 actually thought they were going to be much worse. He'll 681 00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:35.139 send Besson out to say, oh no, this is nothing. 682 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:37.000 It'll be gone. They'll be down to $ 2 a gallon. 683 00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:42.019 When it comes to the casualties of war, Howard Lutnick 684 00:43:42.039 --> 00:43:45.340 will literally say, hey, we did this without anybody dying. 685 00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:48.260 Trump will say, oh my God, look how much better 686 00:43:48.300 --> 00:43:53.760 we're doing than Vietnam. He'll bring up, they'll still spin it. 687 00:43:54.699 --> 00:44:00.059 But you're saying he is viscerally aware that this has 688 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.440 been a disaster, but that gets me back to the 689 00:44:03.460 --> 00:44:06.179 other thing. The people around him, do they not see 690 00:44:06.260 --> 00:44:10.889 now that his competence was a facade, that he's a 691 00:44:11.170 --> 00:44:22.099 reckless and, and capricious individual, not this strategic, uh, five 692 00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:23.800 level chess Jedi. 693 00:44:24.980 --> 00:44:29.010 Um, I don't know. Is this the short answer? No 694 00:44:29.090 --> 00:44:30.969 one has sat down with me and said, you know, 695 00:44:30.989 --> 00:44:34.469 I thought he was a Jedi master and now I 696 00:44:34.510 --> 00:44:36.670 think he's, you know, completely incompetent. 697 00:44:36.690 --> 00:44:38.110 Right. I think he's kind of a boo. 698 00:44:38.130 --> 00:44:41.139 I also think that probably for a lot of them, 699 00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:45.099 it wasn't that they thought he was a 5D chess master. 700 00:44:45.219 --> 00:44:49.039 It was that it was something slightly different, which is 701 00:44:50.219 --> 00:44:54.369 he's an instinct player and his instincts are often right. 702 00:44:54.750 --> 00:44:54.989 I see. 703 00:44:55.699 --> 00:44:58.699 Now, has that changed? May well have, but I don't 704 00:44:58.739 --> 00:45:00.059 have reporting to support it. 705 00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:05.760 How have you changed in dealing with him? Those experiences 706 00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:08.849 that you had in 2018 and then 2020, what did 707 00:45:08.889 --> 00:45:15.769 it tell you about? Look, reporters can't have specific evidence 708 00:45:16.050 --> 00:45:20.530 at the level to refute on everything. It's just not possible. 709 00:45:21.369 --> 00:45:26.610 But are there things that you learned about Dealing with 710 00:45:26.739 --> 00:45:30.920 him or dealing with his administration in a way that helps. 711 00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:36.059 I always said Trump has always stopped usually when it's 712 00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:37.880 not the Supreme Court by the legal system because the 713 00:45:37.940 --> 00:45:41.420 legal system has evidentiary standards. Anybody can go on CNN 714 00:45:41.460 --> 00:45:44.139 and just say whatever the fuck they want. But there 715 00:45:44.179 --> 00:45:46.480 are evidentiary standards and it's why they do so badly 716 00:45:46.519 --> 00:45:48.179 in court most of the time. 717 00:45:49.139 --> 00:45:53.039 So it was two things. One was just learning, frankly, 718 00:45:53.099 --> 00:45:55.829 learning and studying how to do an interview. The first 719 00:45:55.889 --> 00:45:59.159 time I interviewed him is the first interview I've ever 720 00:45:59.179 --> 00:46:02.039 done on television, on camera, was with the president of 721 00:46:02.059 --> 00:46:03.159 the United States. 722 00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:04.019 That 2018 interview? 723 00:46:04.179 --> 00:46:04.460 Yes. 724 00:46:04.619 --> 00:46:06.920 Your first interview was with the president on camera? 725 00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:07.260 Yes. 726 00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:09.550 Yes. What? You would think it would be good to 727 00:46:09.570 --> 00:46:11.670 do– yeah, it's crazy. It would be nice if I 728 00:46:11.670 --> 00:46:14.070 had done like a mayor or a governor or something. 729 00:46:14.550 --> 00:46:14.750 No. 730 00:46:14.949 -->

00:46:18.389 Axios starts– No, it was insane. 731 00:46:18.409 --> 00:46:20.510 Start out with a mayor. You got to start out 732 00:46:20.530 --> 00:46:22.570 with a comptroller and then move your way. 733 00:46:22.650 --> 00:46:26.210 Yeah, comptroller, a school council person, a school board person. 734 00:46:26.329 --> 00:46:27.590 Oh, Jonathan, that's amazing. 735 00:46:28.130 --> 00:46:31.719 No, it was totally fucked. And it was the worst. 736 00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:35.380 I face planted. And on the biggest stage you could imagine. 737 00:46:35.579 --> 00:46:38.760 I'd go a little easier on yourself. You didn't face plant. 738 00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:42.679 You did what most reporters have always done with him, 739 00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:44.880 which is you didn't realize he was going to be 740 00:46:44.900 --> 00:46:46.260 a fire hose of nonsense. 741 00:46:46.599 --> 00:46:51.519 Well, I guess shame on me for that. But no, no, sincerely. 742 00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:56.159 I mean, so I'd been on television, been on panels 743 00:46:56.199 --> 00:46:59.219 and whatever. So Axios, we launched this HBO show and 744 00:46:59.260 --> 00:47:02.260 that was my first time I'd ever interviewed someone on camera, 745 00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:02.800 Donald Trump. 746 00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:03.320 That's wild. 747 00:47:03.380 --> 00:47:06.300 So that was a disaster. So I do that interview 748 00:47:06.539 --> 00:47:11.360 and it's a really bad interview and I get completely shredded. 749 00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:15.679 And everyone– because every element of it gets analyzed because 750 00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:17.920 it's– understandably, it's the President of the United States. It's 751 00:47:17.940 --> 00:47:20.239 about whatever. It's a huge opportunity. 752 00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:23.440 And the ecosystem is you aggregate moments and you pass 753 00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:26.920 them out over every sort of internet outlet or social 754 00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:28.320 media outlet. That's how things work. 755 00:47:28.460 --> 00:47:33.679 Right. And so after that interview, I made a study 756 00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:36.480 of interviewing. I like– Oh, that's interesting. I kind of 757 00:47:36.519 --> 00:47:41.510 created my own sort of self-curriculum in a sense. I– 758 00:47:41.969 --> 00:47:44.630 I went back and kind of said, well, who's done 759 00:47:44.670 --> 00:47:48.150 this really well over the years? And you probably remember 760 00:47:48.250 --> 00:47:53.179 Oriana Falaci. She was incredible. She's my hero. I mean, 761 00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:55.599 before she went kind of crazy in the last decade 762 00:47:55.619 --> 00:47:58.260 of her life. So I don't associate myself. 763 00:47:58.280 --> 00:47:59.800 We all do. We all do. 764 00:47:59.820 --> 00:48:02.440 So her last 15 years where she just like went 765 00:48:02.460 --> 00:48:06.090 off the bend, but between about 1960 and 1980, she 766 00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:11.719 was this fearless, brilliant, well-prepared interviewer. And I have a 767 00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:13.400 book of her interviews, a collection. 768 00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:18.639 What did you think was instructive about her? Because she 769 00:48:18.699 --> 00:48:20.110 was fearless. 770 00:48:20.630 --> 00:48:22.889 Fearless. I mean, Henry Kissinger said it was the most 771 00:48:22.949 --> 00:48:24.769 disastrous interview he ever did. 772 00:48:25.110 --> 00:48:25.769 Really? 773 00:48:26.309 --> 00:48:28.409 Yes. She got him to admit that Vietnam was a 774 00:48:28.550 --> 00:48:31.349 useless war during the war, during the war. 775 00:48:31.869 --> 00:48:32.150 Okay. 776 00:48:33.050 --> 00:48:35.340 And what she did, I mean, there's this moment in 777 00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:39.800 the interview with Kissinger, the stuff that she did that 778 00:48:40.409 --> 00:48:44.610 you and I couldn't do, but she said, you know, 779 00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:47.820 I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like, you know, Henry, Henry, 780 00:48:48.400 --> 00:48:50.420 women find you so attractive. Why do you think it 781 00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:53.820 is people find you so attractive? And he said, oh, 782 00:48:54.659 --> 00:48:56.500 do you have a theory? He said, you know, I 783 00:48:57.019 --> 00:48:58.519 have a theory, but I'm not going to tell you. 784 00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:00.150 Oh, come on, come on. 785 00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:02.510 And you're sort of reading the interview, you go, don't 786 00:49:02.550 --> 00:49:03.760 do it, Henry, don't do it. 787 00:49:03.929 --> 00:49:04.949 Don't do it. 788 00:49:05.329 --> 00:49:07.130 And he says, all right, I'll tell you. You know, 789 00:49:07.929 --> 00:49:12.960 in the American– mythology we love the cowboy who rides 790 00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:15.500 into town on the horse on his own he doesn't 791 00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:18.510 even have a weapon basically that's me and he just 792 00:49:19.429 --> 00:49:24.090 he just humiliated himself. And then, and she, She had 793 00:49:24.289 --> 00:49:27.110 unhorsed him so much, so to speak, that he then 794 00:49:27.230 --> 00:49:31.170 starts saying really stupid things. So what I learned from 795 00:49:31.230 --> 00:49:33.389 reading her interviews and studying her, and the other one 796 00:49:33.429 --> 00:49:37.159 I studied a lot, there's two others, Mike Wallace on 797 00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:40.539 60 Minutes interviews, and also Andrew Neil in the UK, 798 00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:41.760 who's just at his best. 799 00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:42.460 Oh. 800 00:49:42.659 --> 00:49:47.840 So detailed. He's so good. Yes. When he's on, he'll 801 00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:51.300 read the bill, the legislation, he'll know the budget, he'll 802 00:49:51.429 --> 00:49:52.570 know every detail. 803 00:49:52.789 --> 00:49:56.079 But what I- What I love about them, they don't 804 00:49:56.539 --> 00:50:00.420 do it. When people know that, sometimes the tendency is 805 00:50:00.460 -->

00:50:04.320 to just demonstrate your specific knowledge over and over again. 806 00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:06.340 And I've fallen into that trap sometimes where you try 807 00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:06.760 to do that. 808 00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:07.380 Right. 809 00:50:07.820 --> 00:50:14.510 Those guys prepared, but then they allowed, they were very present. 810 00:50:14.860 --> 00:50:15.619 A million percent. 811 00:50:16.260 --> 00:50:21.329 So present. And it never felt like they were performing 812 00:50:22.369 --> 00:50:25.530 their knowledge. I thought. 100%. 813 00:50:25.530 --> 00:50:29.690 So the thing I– again, I've spent so much time 814 00:50:29.750 --> 00:50:33.210 on this. It's sort of insane. And watching tape of people. 815 00:50:33.269 --> 00:50:35.199 So knowing what are their programmed answers. 816 00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:35.840 Like a prize fighter. 817 00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:39.719 What are their programmed answers? What are their moves? Because 818 00:50:39.820 --> 00:50:42.239 I think in an interview, I think about it in 819 00:50:42.460 --> 00:50:44.780 terms of lines of questioning. And you only really get 820 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:49.070 to the interesting stuff on the third or fourth follow-up question. 821 00:50:49.409 --> 00:50:51.889 It's never the first. The first answer is always glib. 822 00:50:52.170 --> 00:50:55.239 It's always rehearsed. The second one's a little more interesting. 823 00:50:55.480 --> 00:50:57.570 The third one and the fourth one is when you 824 00:50:57.639 --> 00:51:02.050 really unhorse them and get to something close to interesting 825 00:51:02.130 --> 00:51:06.070 or the truth. And what I found over time as 826 00:51:06.130 --> 00:51:10.489 I got better at it was the preparation liberates you. 827 00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:13.119 It's exactly what you just said. If you are so 828 00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:17.800 well prepared, Mike Wallace used to call it the chemistry 829 00:51:17.820 --> 00:51:21.570 of confidentiality. It was this moment at its best where 830 00:51:21.639 --> 00:51:24.170 you're sitting down with an interview subject. This is not 831 00:51:24.230 --> 00:51:28.710 true of Trump, but most interview subjects. And they realize 832 00:51:28.730 --> 00:51:31.570 you've done your homework. And it's a show of respect, really. 833 00:51:31.590 --> 00:51:34.280 You've really done your work. You know the subject. And 834 00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:36.579 you're not going to put up with the old bullshit 835 00:51:36.860 --> 00:51:39.179 that they give. And there's a moment where they say, 836 00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:42.179 you know what? The lights are all here. fuck it. 837 00:51:42.340 --> 00:51:44.530 We're just going to have a conversation. Like I'm not 838 00:51:44.550 --> 00:51:47.230 going to fake. And so that's the kind of Holy grail. 839 00:51:47.530 --> 00:51:49.690 But what I find in, in, in even like the 840 00:51:49.730 --> 00:51:54.829 most adversarial accountability interviews is the preparation liberates you to 841 00:51:54.889 --> 00:51:58.519 put the notes aside and just listen and just listen 842 00:51:58.599 --> 00:52:02.219 to what they're saying. And if they say something really interesting, 843 00:52:02.940 --> 00:52:06.440 follow that path. Don't go back to the script, follow 844 00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:09.949 that path to wherever it goes. Um, And have the 845 00:52:09.989 --> 00:52:13.380 confidence to do that. And that's what that Trump interview 846 00:52:13.409 --> 00:52:17.639 was because we'd spent like 25 minutes on COVID. I 847 00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:20.340 was only allotted a 30-minute interview. I knew I could 848 00:52:20.380 --> 00:52:22.679 extend him out because his staff wouldn't have the balls 849 00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:25.800 to come to the interview. But I was kind of 850 00:52:25.820 --> 00:52:28.940 getting a bit anxious because I had other stuff I 851 00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:31.739 wanted to ask him about. And I could have said– 852 00:52:31.869 --> 00:52:34.289 he pulled out these papers that he had. And I 853 00:52:34.329 --> 00:52:36.829 could have said, no, sir, moving on to the next question. 854 00:52:36.849 --> 00:52:37.670 Okay. 855 00:52:38.420 --> 00:52:39.739 But I was like, oh, I'm going to take a 856 00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:41.840 look at these papers. What's on them? 857 00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:42.650 Right. 858 00:52:42.710 --> 00:52:45.409 And that was the most revealing and interesting moment in 859 00:52:45.429 --> 00:52:48.409 the whole interview because he was trying to say basically 860 00:52:48.429 --> 00:52:51.889 they were winning at death and based on the most 861 00:52:52.349 --> 00:53:00.840 kind of preposterous conception of COVID death statistics. So, yeah. 862 00:53:00.860 --> 00:53:07.559 But were you surprised? Because I remember that interview– astonishing people. 863 00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:10.820 And it astonished people because, I mean, you might look 864 00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:12.780 at it as, well, that was in that moment and 865 00:53:12.820 --> 00:53:15.920 it was the natural thing, the curiosity of a journalist 866 00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:20.599 to be in the moment. People are not accustomed to 867 00:53:20.719 --> 00:53:25.389 journalists who are not just going down their list of 868 00:53:25.489 --> 00:53:29.750 the 10 subjects, allowing the answer, and then just going 869 00:53:29.789 --> 00:53:35.449 to the next thing. And I'm surprised that what you 870 00:53:35.610 --> 00:53:41.699 did wasn't then modeled given how, you know, the incentive 871 00:53:41.719 --> 00:53:43.900 structure for journalists is you're also trying to make a 872 00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:48.139 name for yourself. Why do you think that didn't then 873 00:53:48.219 --> 00:53:50.059 become the norm? 874 00:53:51.980 --> 00:53:52.639 I don't know. 875 00:53:54.880 --> 00:53:57.139 Is it too hard to do? Are they trying to 876 00:53:57.199 --> 00:53:59.519 just produce for 24 hours? Is it

too hard to 877 00:53:59.559 --> 00:54:00.460 pin him down like that? 878 00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:06.239 There aren't, firstly, he doesn't, He has the perception of 879 00:54:06.659 --> 00:54:09.989 ubiquity because he's sort of– but he actually doesn't do 880 00:54:10.119 --> 00:54:15.710 that many serious sit-down interviews. He really doesn't. It's mostly 881 00:54:16.230 --> 00:54:16.730 friendly interviews. 882 00:54:18.510 --> 00:54:22.349 Or easily manipulated in a– it's so easy to conduct 883 00:54:22.429 --> 00:54:23.989 a room. Like the White House press– Oh, that's what 884 00:54:24.030 --> 00:54:24.360 I mean. 885 00:54:24.429 --> 00:54:26.079 I mean, that's the easiest thing in the world. 886 00:54:26.219 --> 00:54:26.539 Yeah. 887 00:54:26.579 --> 00:54:27.239 Easiest thing in the world. 888 00:54:27.260 --> 00:54:31.320 Those press– I mean, like you shout a question, shout 889 00:54:31.360 --> 00:54:34.400 at you. You don't even have a proper microphone. I mean, 890 00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:39.739 it's– no, it's impossible. And– It's not impossible. You can 891 00:54:39.820 --> 00:54:42.159 ask a tough question and what have you, but you 892 00:54:42.199 --> 00:54:44.119 can't do a serious interrogation. 893 00:54:44.619 --> 00:54:46.059 So easy to move past. 894 00:54:46.340 --> 00:54:48.570 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's it. I mean, it is 895 00:54:48.650 --> 00:54:51.530 so stacked in any politician's favor in that kind of 896 00:54:51.570 --> 00:54:51.969 a setting. 897 00:54:52.110 --> 00:54:54.650 And that's why when they refer to that as transparency 898 00:54:54.730 --> 00:54:57.829 or accessibility, you just think, well, that's a lie. That's 899 00:54:57.909 --> 00:55:02.539 just his ability to dominate a theater of his choice. 900 00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:05.300 That's a home game. And he makes the rules and 901 00:55:05.340 --> 00:55:07.960 he puts it. That's not transparency and it's not accountability. 902 00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:11.260 it's a performance that he gets to put on to 903 00:55:11.320 --> 00:55:12.159 satisfy himself. 904 00:55:13.619 --> 00:55:17.789 Yeah. I mean, yes, obviously I'll still, you know, again, 905 00:55:17.829 --> 00:55:19.710 I haven't, I haven't been in, I haven't been in 906 00:55:19.789 --> 00:55:23.150 one of these for a very long time, more than 907 00:55:23.170 --> 00:55:25.110 a year, actually, I think since the last time I've 908 00:55:25.179 --> 00:55:27.860 had a chance to do one of them, but I'll 909 00:55:27.900 --> 00:55:31.039 take it over nothing, but, but for sure, it's, it's 910 00:55:31.099 --> 00:55:32.780 not meaningful transparency. 911 00:55:39.940 --> 00:55:43.579 Everybody, you know, obviously it's a podcast. So like you 912 00:55:43.619 --> 00:55:45.619 got to do ads. That's just kind of the way 913 00:55:45.639 --> 00:55:48.489 the world works. But every now and again, a company 914 00:55:48.530 --> 00:55:52.289 comes along and you're like, oh shit, I use those. 915 00:55:53.730 --> 00:55:57.329 You actually go like, oh yeah, those are great. And 916 00:55:57.349 --> 00:56:01.340 that's where we're at now. Bombas. Bombas is great. I 917 00:56:01.469 --> 00:56:05.460 use those. And not just like, not in the sense 918 00:56:05.480 --> 00:56:09.559 of like, oh socks. Yeah. I mean, Everybody uses those. 919 00:56:09.639 --> 00:56:12.530 I'm not a delicate flower. I'm not one of those 920 00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:16.909 bold dock sider, no sock dudes that we all read 921 00:56:16.949 --> 00:56:19.710 about in the 80s, Bonfire of the Vanities and such. 922 00:56:19.989 --> 00:56:22.170 None of that. No, I wear the socks for comfort, 923 00:56:22.309 --> 00:56:26.610 but the socks I wear are bombas. They're phenomenal socks. 924 00:56:27.090 --> 00:56:31.349 Now they got t-shirts and underwear too. What? Start with 925 00:56:31.369 --> 00:56:34.889 the foundation and build all the way up in comfort. 926 00:56:36.550 --> 00:56:39.599 And generosity, by the way, here's the other thing. Okay, 927 00:56:40.300 --> 00:56:44.320 so forget about this. I don't even care. If Bombas 928 00:56:44.780 --> 00:56:48.679 just was the quality that it was and felt as 929 00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:51.750 good on your feet as they say in, as my 930 00:56:51.789 --> 00:56:55.230 people would say, Dayenu, it would be enough. But they're 931 00:56:55.250 --> 00:57:00.349 good people too. Yeah, yeah. Every single item you purchase, 932 00:57:00.730 --> 00:57:04.059 an essential clothing item is donated to someone in need. 933 00:57:04.900 --> 00:57:10.019 Head over to bombas.com slash weekly and use code weekly 934 00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:16.170 for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com 935 00:57:16.190 --> 00:57:21.309 slash weekly. Code weekly at checkout. Do it now, you fucks. 936 00:57:26.539 --> 00:57:29.239 Did you ever see, you know, you brought up Mike Wallace. 937 00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:33.480 I'm curious. If you ever saw, because there was an 938 00:57:33.579 --> 00:57:36.880 interview that Mike Wallace did with Roy Cohn, and Roy 939 00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:41.280 Cohn being the lawyer that kind of taught Donald Trump 940 00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:49.110 kind of the basic steps of ambition and power and corruption. 941 00:57:49.190 --> 00:57:51.230 You don't hire Roy Cohn to be your lawyer because 942 00:57:51.250 --> 00:57:53.969 you want him to make sure you're doing everything by 943 00:57:54.010 --> 00:57:58.329 the book. He's a manipulative, dangerous guy. It was Joe 944 00:57:58.349 --> 00:58:03.369 McCarthy's lawyer on the House Un-American Activities Committee. Bad person. 945 00:58:04.829 --> 00:58:07.210 Mike Wallace does an interview with Roy Cohn, and it 946 00:58:07.250 --> 00:58:09.889 gets back to sort of what we talked about, about 947 00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:15.599 the power of positive thinking and reality distortion. Roy Cohn 948 00:58:15.619 --> 00:58:20.500 at the time is dying of AIDS. And I urge

949 00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:23.400 you to go look this up because it is a masterclass, 950 00:58:23.539 --> 00:58:26.059 not just in what you're talking about as a journalist, 951 00:58:26.480 --> 00:58:31.610 but in a subject. that is, I think, quintessential to 952 00:58:31.809 --> 00:58:37.090 understanding the way Trump operates. So he says to Roy Cohn, 953 00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:40.420 you know, there are reports, you know, that you are 954 00:58:40.440 --> 00:58:45.019 a homosexual. Well, that's, no, that's absolutely. 955 00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:45.739 Oh, I have seen this. 956 00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:46.619 Oh, you see, okay. 957 00:58:46.639 --> 00:58:47.239 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 958 00:58:47.260 --> 00:58:48.340 So you know what I'm talking about. 959 00:58:48.360 --> 00:58:48.699 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 960 00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:52.840 You're dying of AIDS, a homosexual, not a homosexual, not 961 00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:56.340 dying of AIDS, have, you know, you're welcome to talk 962 00:58:56.400 --> 00:59:02.119 to my doctors. Like Wallace says, can I, because I 963 00:59:02.159 --> 00:59:04.019 talked to your doctors and they said, I couldn't talk 964 00:59:04.059 --> 00:59:06.300 to them unless you said it was okay. Are you 965 00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:10.699 saying it's okay? They go through this whole dance. What's 966 00:59:10.820 --> 00:59:15.059 so interesting about it is they both know he's gay. 967 00:59:15.340 --> 00:59:18.099 They both know he's dying of AIDS. Mike Wallace is 968 00:59:18.360 --> 00:59:28.130 pressing the point incredibly respectfully. Roy Cohn is such a fabulous, fabulist. 969 00:59:29.190 --> 00:59:35.119 He's such a great liar and watching him and that 970 00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:36.920 gets to the question I was talking about earlier is 971 00:59:37.739 --> 00:59:43.900 does he believe this or is he just so accustomed 972 00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:48.599 to the show and what happens a few months later 973 00:59:48.699 --> 00:59:52.559 he dies of AIDS and and I think ultimately came 974 00:59:52.639 --> 00:59:56.719 out and said yeah I'm gay and but I thought 975 00:59:57.059 --> 01:00:00.480 you know is that what it's like when you're faced 976 01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:06.130 with someone who just won't give up the game of 977 01:00:06.190 --> 01:00:07.989 reality in front of you. 978 01:00:10.400 --> 01:00:13.000 I think it's so hard to know sometimes what he 979 01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:17.780 actually believes. I'll give you one example where he clearly 980 01:00:18.579 --> 01:00:26.070 believed the lie. Terry Moran, who used to be at ABC, 981 01:00:26.110 --> 01:00:32.809 was interviewing Trump. And he asked him about– Abrego Garcia 982 01:00:35.570 --> 01:00:40.429 and the tattoo. And Trump brings up this MS-13 tattoo, 983 01:00:40.489 --> 01:00:41.530 which he posted. 984 01:00:41.889 --> 01:00:42.110 Yes. 985 01:00:43.070 --> 01:00:43.929 It was photoshopped. 986 01:00:44.349 --> 01:00:44.590 Yes. 987 01:00:44.880 -->

01:00:52.360 But Trump afterwards, after the interview, was asking people, this 988 01:00:52.420 --> 01:00:55.960 is real. Basically, get me the photos. So he sincerely 989 01:00:56.000 --> 01:00:59.579 believed that this tattoo and was insisting that it was real. 990 01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:00.500 Mm-hmm. 991 01:01:01.650 --> 01:01:07.250 But other times, he will say something like, we have 992 01:01:07.289 --> 01:01:08.289 all the weapons we. 993 01:01:08.210 --> 01:01:10.659 Need for Iran. 994 01:01:11.300 --> 01:01:13.780 He's been very well briefed on the weapons constraints. And 995 01:01:13.820 --> 01:01:16.599 if he actually believed everything he's saying about the war, 996 01:01:16.880 --> 01:01:21.170 he wouldn't have authorized his team to try to get 997 01:01:21.250 --> 01:01:23.929 out of the war. They would have pressed ahead for 998 01:01:23.969 --> 01:01:27.369 regime change. Lord knows what else they would have done kinetically. 999 01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:32.280 he pulled back from major operations that they had planned, 1000 01:01:32.480 --> 01:01:37.059 huge additional bombing campaigns and things to disable. So clearly 1001 01:01:37.409 --> 01:01:41.050 he knows that they have leverage because if he believed 1002 01:01:41.090 --> 01:01:44.170 everything he said, he wouldn't have pulled back. He would 1003 01:01:44.190 --> 01:01:47.570 have gone ahead, pressed the advantage and taken over the country. 1004 01:01:48.010 --> 01:01:50.489 It's so interesting though, that you're saying this because it is, 1005 01:01:50.829 --> 01:01:54.670 it seems like there's two information streams. There's sort of, 1006 01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:57.380 you know, he's getting updates on the war and things 1007 01:01:57.400 --> 01:01:59.539 like that. And he's realizing like, so have they given up? 1008 01:01:59.539 --> 01:02:03.639 Because he can't fake that boats aren't going through the 1009 01:02:03.659 --> 01:02:05.500 Strait of Hormuz or are going through, like, you just 1010 01:02:05.539 --> 01:02:08.820 can't fake that sort of thing. But things like the 1011 01:02:09.019 --> 01:02:14.440 MS-13 tattoo on his fist, my guess is, and again, 1012 01:02:15.300 --> 01:02:17.800 don't know for sure, and you can correct me or say, well, 1013 01:02:17.820 --> 01:02:22.769 that's just speculation, is people feed him a lot of 1014 01:02:22.829 --> 01:02:27.289 information that they think He wants to see. That's the 1015 01:02:27.349 --> 01:02:33.150 Natalie Harp, the human printer. Sir, your poll numbers are great. 1016 01:02:33.429 --> 01:02:37.090 I found this story that says 97% of Republicans, and 1017 01:02:37.130 --> 01:02:40.179 they give that to him. And so part of the 1018 01:02:40.219 --> 01:02:44.320 reality distortion field is created in his mind, but part 1019 01:02:44.360 --> 01:02:47.840 of it is reinforced. Definitely. By a lot of people 1020 01:02:47.860 --> 01:02:50.780 around him who he goes, is that guy MS-13? Let's 1021 01:02:50.820

--> 01:02:53.489 say he is curious about it. Absolutely, sir. Let me 1022 01:02:53.570 --> 01:02:56.409 show you this. And they do that up to show 1023 01:02:56.449 --> 01:02:58.630 him like, that's really. And so he thinks that picture 1024 01:02:58.650 --> 01:03:02.030 is real. And that is actually what he's going on. 1025 01:03:02.510 --> 01:03:06.190 Like when you got him on the numbers, my guess 1026 01:03:06.309 --> 01:03:08.590 is they feed him that shit. He doesn't look at 1027 01:03:08.630 --> 01:03:11.150 it that carefully and say to him, see how well 1028 01:03:11.190 --> 01:03:14.750 we're doing. And it's almost like they're feeding him a 1029 01:03:16.429 --> 01:03:18.269 distorted world as well. 1030 01:03:18.750 --> 01:03:21.369 It's both or he'll solicit it. You know, that's right. 1031 01:03:21.389 --> 01:03:24.969 You know, he goes out, you know, put me together 1032 01:03:25.010 --> 01:03:27.849 a graph that shows we're doing why. I mean, one 1033 01:03:27.889 --> 01:03:33.590 dynamic is Bill Pulte, who was the head of the 1034 01:03:33.630 --> 01:03:34.909 housing finance agency. 1035 01:03:34.949 --> 01:03:36.269 He's a real estate guy, yeah? 1036 01:03:36.489 --> 01:03:40.809 Yeah, real estate guy, but had no experience in intelligence 1037 01:03:40.829 --> 01:03:43.780 and was briefly the acting director of national intelligence. But 1038 01:03:43.860 --> 01:03:46.280 he goes to Trump's golf clubs and he brings these 1039 01:03:46.420 --> 01:03:52.650 foam boards. And it's like, They often end up being 1040 01:03:52.889 --> 01:03:54.590 Trump will truth. A lot of the stuff you see 1041 01:03:54.650 --> 01:03:58.530 on his truth social on the weekends in particular is 1042 01:03:58.550 --> 01:04:03.820 sort of Bill Pulte's often his handiwork. And so you 1043 01:04:03.860 --> 01:04:07.019 have people like him and Natalie Harp who are feeding 1044 01:04:07.059 --> 01:04:10.679 him what he wants to see. It's very much both ways. 1045 01:04:10.739 --> 01:04:14.760 He solicits, he gets it. And then he has obviously, 1046 01:04:15.159 --> 01:04:18.119 you know, his intelligence briefings and what have you, which are, 1047 01:04:18.699 --> 01:04:21.929 you know, Yes, they're tailored to what he's interested in, 1048 01:04:22.030 --> 01:04:28.150 but it's not wacky stuff from Gateway Pundit. It's intelligence. 1049 01:04:28.190 --> 01:04:30.949 Right, right. And they make little– it's sort of like 1050 01:04:30.969 --> 01:04:32.659 in the way my daughter got us to get her 1051 01:04:32.699 --> 01:04:36.579 a hamster. They make little presentations with a couple of 1052 01:04:36.639 --> 01:04:40.360 slides that are easily well-digested, and that's how they get 1053 01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:43.360 their way with him. He loves a little– everything is 1054 01:04:43.429 --> 01:04:46.269 Shark Tank-ish. to this president, I think to some extent. 1055 01:04:46.489 --> 01:04:49.929 Very, very visual. You often see these kind of dramatic, 1056 01:04:51.349 --> 01:04:55.730 you know, images of, he loves looking at the, you know, the, the, 1057 01:04:55.929 --> 01:04:57.829 the big naval vessels and. 1058 01:04:58.230 --> 01:05:00.320 Things like that. Loves to have his name on it. 1059 01:05:00.750 --> 01:05:03.949 Where do you think, is there a future, you know, 1060 01:05:03.969 --> 01:05:08.400 for the, the fact that you talked about, I studied 1061 01:05:08.440 --> 01:05:10.599 all these interviews, I learned how to do them better. 1062 01:05:10.719 --> 01:05:14.190 I walked in there. That's an incredibly competent and thoughtful 1063 01:05:14.250 --> 01:05:17.590 way to go about in a world that is moving away. 1064 01:05:17.690 --> 01:05:22.420 I feel like you're artisanal. You're like, you're, you're like 1065 01:05:22.559 --> 01:05:25.179 one of those shops where like you go in and 1066 01:05:25.219 --> 01:05:28.559 a guy is still making chairs by hand and he's 1067 01:05:28.579 --> 01:05:32.119 got a little lathe and he's like, look, and they're like, yeah, 1068 01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:34.750 but I just went to China and got 800 of 1069 01:05:34.809 --> 01:05:37.349 them for $ 2. 1070 01:05:36.730 --> 01:05:36.949 Yeah. 1071 01:05:37.630 --> 01:05:41.570 The type, we are now in a world of media consolidation. 1072 01:05:42.590 --> 01:05:50.340 We are now in a world where it's incentivized to quick-hitting, vitriolic, 1073 01:05:50.699 --> 01:05:56.260 hostile bits. Good journalism has to exist in that world. 1074 01:05:57.400 --> 01:06:04.360 Can it compete? What are the incentives that you would 1075 01:06:04.420 --> 01:06:08.679 like to see change or stay the same? How does 1076 01:06:08.739 --> 01:06:15.760 this artisanal methodology work? survive in a new world of 1077 01:06:16.300 --> 01:06:25.500 Twitter and Instagram and influencers and media consolidation? How do 1078 01:06:25.619 --> 01:06:26.480 you break through? 1079 01:06:27.179 --> 01:06:32.420 On the interviewing on camera, which is a very specific thing, 1080 01:06:33.300 --> 01:06:35.139 it is an art and it takes a long time 1081 01:06:35.300 --> 01:06:36.969 to work on it. I still feel like I was 1082 01:06:37.010 --> 01:06:39.329 only 5% of what I wanted to do with that. 1083 01:06:41.530 --> 01:06:45.340 You know, we had the HBO show for three years. 1084 01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:48.639 We won the Emmy for that interview, and then HBO 1085 01:06:48.679 --> 01:06:53.429 canceled the show almost two weeks, I think, after the Emmy. 1086 01:06:53.469 --> 01:06:56.969 Sure. Why wouldn't they cancel an Emmy-winning journalism show? 1087 01:06:57.989 --> 01:07:00.710 So I don't know. Obviously, I don't know the reason. 1088 01:07:01.190 --> 01:07:03.889 I do know that we were doing very controversial interviews. 1089 01:07:04.300 --> 01:07:09.199 We interviewed Imran Khan in Pakistan and I pressed him 1090 01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:12.900 on China's treatment of the Uyghurs and that caused a 1091 01:07:12.960 -->

01:07:16.039 huge amount. I don't know what happened internally. I'm not 1092 01:07:16.219 --> 01:07:18.070 saying I have any insight into it. 1093 01:07:18.840 --> 01:07:19.460 I can tell you. 1094 01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:24.239 Certainly, we were doing shows that were getting a lot 1095 01:07:24.280 --> 01:07:27.420 of public debate and they were highly political and what 1096 01:07:27.460 --> 01:07:29.900 have you. And I gather that a lot of these 1097 01:07:29.980 --> 01:07:32.719 streaming things just don't want to be in the news business. 1098 01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:36.210 I mean, it happened to you, obviously, with Apple, right? 1099 01:07:36.230 --> 01:07:36.610 That's right. 1100 01:07:36.769 --> 01:07:37.630 Yeah. 1101 01:07:38.030 --> 01:07:41.469 And by the way, explicitly so. I mean, I was 1102 01:07:41.750 --> 01:07:44.989 in the rooms where they said, and you know what 1103 01:07:45.010 --> 01:07:50.480 was so interesting? What really seems to have affected these companies, 1104 01:07:50.960 --> 01:07:58.090 it's not necessarily even FCC or Ron DeSantis suing Disney. 1105 01:07:58.110 --> 01:08:00.489 Do you remember when Disney came out and they took 1106 01:08:00.530 --> 01:08:01.530 a stand on Don't Say That? 1107 01:08:01.550 --> 01:08:01.829 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1108 01:08:02.909 --> 01:08:09.539 Him suing them and actually going after their sovereignty in Orlando, 1109 01:08:10.079 --> 01:08:14.960 that was brought up to me specifically when it came 1110 01:08:15.039 --> 01:08:20.199 to they did not want politicians interviewed on the show 1111 01:08:20.439 --> 01:08:26.420 for fear that those types of repercussions And then there 1112 01:08:26.439 --> 01:08:31.409 were obviously other very touchy political things that, you know, 1113 01:08:31.430 --> 01:08:33.630 they came and we got a lot of pushback on. 1114 01:08:33.890 --> 01:08:38.890 What you realize is their interest diverges from your interest. 1115 01:08:39.949 --> 01:08:42.729 Your interest is to get the most interesting interviews that 1116 01:08:42.770 --> 01:08:45.520 are the most incisive, that are the most revealing, that 1117 01:08:45.640 --> 01:08:50.420 get to litigate the boundaries of our reality and the people, 1118 01:08:50.479 --> 01:08:54.949 the powerful people that control that reality. Their interest is 1119 01:08:55.329 --> 01:09:01.600 selling phones, mergers and acquisitions, You can only hurt them. 1120 01:09:01.659 --> 01:09:02.659 You can't help them. 1121 01:09:04.960 --> 01:09:10.270 I think one reason, so I think that's all true. 1122 01:09:10.279 --> 01:09:12.909 I'm almost reticent to say this because it just sounds 1123 01:09:12.930 --> 01:09:17.149 like I'm being promotional, but I'm not. It's sincerely what 1124 01:09:17.170 --> 01:09:19.470 I think. the New York times is kind of a 1125 01:09:19.609 --> 01:09:24.270 unicorn in that the Trump would like nothing more than 1126 01:09:24.310 --> 01:09:26.569 to shut down the New York times, but he actually 1127 01:09:26.609 --> 01:09:29.069 doesn't have, we don't need, we don't depend on the 1128 01:09:29.109 --> 01:09:31.590 government for licenses. We don't depend on the government for money. 1129 01:09:32.010 --> 01:09:33.390 We're run by a family. 1130 01:09:33.409 --> 01:09:34.569 Right. 1131 01:09:34.649 --> 01:09:37.720 This is their only thing. They're not in all these 1132 01:09:37.760 --> 01:09:41.220 other industries. The New York times is everything for them 1133 01:09:41.859 --> 01:09:44.909 and they're willing to invest and support it. And I, 1134 01:09:46.090 --> 01:09:48.949 I'm all for independent media. I think it's wonderful. I'm 1135 01:09:49.090 --> 01:09:52.029 all for it flourishing. But for the sort of national 1136 01:09:52.050 --> 01:09:56.609 security type of stories in particular, man, we need that infrastructure, 1137 01:09:56.789 --> 01:10:02.569 the legal infrastructure, the digital information security, and also knowing 1138 01:10:02.609 --> 01:10:05.149 that the ultimate power at the New York Times will 1139 01:10:05.180 --> 01:10:07.659 support us. You know, with Trump suing the paper and 1140 01:10:07.720 --> 01:10:08.300 all these sort of things. 1141 01:10:08.319 --> 01:10:10.520 Sure, where they're going to their houses and they're giving 1142 01:10:10.539 --> 01:10:11.279 them subpoenas. 1143 01:10:11.539 --> 01:10:14.819 Right. And, you know, I'll just say, you've never seen A.G. 1144 01:10:14.840 --> 01:10:21.229 Salzberg- give a donation to Donald Trump, go and suck 1145 01:10:21.310 --> 01:10:24.489 up to him. It doesn't happen. It doesn't take private 1146 01:10:24.890 --> 01:10:30.270 off the records with him. Nothing. To me, that's the 1147 01:10:30.390 --> 01:10:32.449 ideal model, but I'm not naive enough to think that 1148 01:10:32.529 --> 01:10:34.470 everyone can just replicate that. The New York Times has 1149 01:10:34.590 --> 01:10:39.310 managed to build in this very difficult economic environment. The 1150 01:10:39.449 --> 01:10:42.069 New York Times was no sure thing 15 years ago. 1151 01:10:42.170 --> 01:10:46.010 This thing was floundering economically, and they built a digital 1152 01:10:46.050 --> 01:10:51.510 subscription model, and it's worked. Thank God it has. But 1153 01:10:51.670 --> 01:10:54.729 it's really hard to do, and there's not many people 1154 01:10:54.770 --> 01:10:59.180 who've managed to do it, certainly not at scale. Investigative 1155 01:10:59.239 --> 01:11:02.819 journalism is very expensive. It's not a profit center in 1156 01:11:02.859 --> 01:11:06.039 and of itself. It's something that gets subsidized by other things. 1157 01:11:06.060 --> 01:11:10.239 So it's never going to be this pure commercial thing. 1158 01:11:10.270 --> 01:11:13.069 So then you have other models like the nonprofit model, 1159 01:11:14.449 --> 01:11:17.510 philanthropic model, which again, I'm all for all of these 1160 01:11:17.569 --> 01:11:22.810 things existing, but it's

really hard. And the other issue 1161 01:11:22.869 --> 01:11:27.020 I had probably towards the end with the interviewing, and 1162 01:11:27.029 --> 01:11:29.510 I'm sure you've had this issue as well, is Once 1163 01:11:29.550 --> 01:11:33.949 you start doing a few interviews that are tough accountability interviews, 1164 01:11:34.029 --> 01:11:39.050 people stop wanting to agree to be interviewed by you. Actually, 1165 01:11:39.890 --> 01:11:44.930 getting the interviews becomes an issue. I actually didn't see 1166 01:11:44.949 --> 01:11:49.050 a huge future for myself in on-camera interviewing because it 1167 01:11:49.109 --> 01:11:54.060 requires a guest booking and access that was becoming apparent 1168 01:11:54.100 --> 01:11:57.579 to me was diminishing. pretty rapidly. 1169 01:11:58.260 --> 01:12:00.840 And what you have to give up to gain that access. 1170 01:12:01.119 --> 01:12:03.800 Can I ask you about another, the flip side of that? 1171 01:12:04.100 --> 01:12:06.699 You said, you know, when you start doing these accountability interviews, 1172 01:12:07.020 --> 01:12:10.119 it becomes harder to book people. The other thing I 1173 01:12:10.159 --> 01:12:16.050 found was once the audience gets a taste of something 1174 01:12:16.630 --> 01:12:23.569 like that, their expectation is for blood. Their expectation now is, 1175 01:12:24.060 --> 01:12:27.939 All interviews must draw blood. I must taste blood. They 1176 01:12:27.979 --> 01:12:31.550 must draw blood from the right people. Right. And there 1177 01:12:31.590 --> 01:12:36.630 is a disappointment if it's not because the way that 1178 01:12:36.869 --> 01:12:41.979 social media has kind of aggrandized the Jonathan Swan eviscerates Trump. 1179 01:12:41.989 --> 01:12:42.220 Yes. 1180 01:12:42.500 --> 01:12:48.340 Right. Jonathan Swan lays low the head up and it's 1181 01:12:48.439 --> 01:12:55.939 almost as though the audience is becomes thirsty for something 1182 01:12:57.199 --> 01:12:59.689 that you weren't trying to provide in the first place. 1183 01:13:00.779 --> 01:13:02.270 And did you feel any of that? 1184 01:13:02.569 --> 01:13:06.609 Oh man, that's so true. That's so true. I don't 1185 01:13:06.630 --> 01:13:10.750 know that I've observed it more than, I guess I 1186 01:13:10.770 --> 01:13:15.890 felt internal pressure to do the best accountability interview I could, 1187 01:13:15.930 --> 01:13:21.170 but I didn't feel, I've always hated, I've never, never 1188 01:13:21.210 --> 01:13:23.770 gone into an interview with like, I'm going to take 1189 01:13:23.810 --> 01:13:26.329 their head off. Like it's just not my approach. Like 1190 01:13:27.210 --> 01:13:29.720 the style of interview, it's not the way I operate 1191 01:13:29.939 --> 01:13:35.899 at all. I think it can go, it can take 1192 01:13:35.920 --> 01:13:39.500 an interviewer to not great places. So like, I'm sure 1193 01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:41.649 you've seen a lot of Paxman over the years, Jeremy 1194 01:13:41.670 --> 01:13:42.390 Paxman in the US. 1195 01:13:42.390 --> 01:13:42.829 Yes, absolutely. 1196 01:13:42.909 --> 01:13:46.829 In the UK. So I think Paxman's done some brilliant– Yes. 1197 01:13:46.930 --> 01:13:48.279 Some of his interviews are brilliant, right? 1198 01:13:48.479 --> 01:13:49.619 But I know where you're going with this. 1199 01:13:49.640 --> 01:13:52.119 But you know what I'm saying? Yes. So it became 1200 01:13:52.159 --> 01:13:56.060 a shtick where he would like– There was the famous 1201 01:13:56.180 --> 01:13:58.739 one where he asked the same question 10 times of 1202 01:13:58.779 --> 01:14:02.260 that hapless guy. And then there was the woman who 1203 01:14:02.300 --> 01:14:06.460 I think was the treasury minister or something where he just, oh, 1204 01:14:06.659 --> 01:14:09.520 it was so brutal. She just, he's like, aren't you 1205 01:14:09.560 --> 01:14:12.239 embarrassed to be, you know, he was so mean and whatever. 1206 01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:16.020 And so he did a couple of great ones. And 1207 01:14:16.050 --> 01:14:20.810 then over time it became a cartoon. Yes. And I 1208 01:14:20.909 --> 01:14:24.699 actually didn't think that it actually revealed much or shed 1209 01:14:24.739 --> 01:14:27.739 any light. You know, the cliche of heat, not light. 1210 01:14:27.960 --> 01:14:30.920 It was all heat and very little light. And not 1211 01:14:31.119 --> 01:14:35.680 every interview is this sort of boxing match. 1212 01:14:35.699 --> 01:14:36.640 It's just not. 1213 01:14:36.840 --> 01:14:39.560 I mean, interviews, you have to have range as an interviewer. 1214 01:14:39.579 --> 01:14:43.239 You have to be able to elicit and probe. And, 1215 01:14:43.579 --> 01:14:45.970 you know, whether you agree with his politics or not, 1216 01:14:46.130 --> 01:14:50.170 William F. Buckley– You know, go watch his old firing 1217 01:14:50.210 --> 01:14:51.729 line interviews are brilliant. 1218 01:14:51.909 --> 01:14:52.250 Yeah. 1219 01:14:52.310 --> 01:14:53.170 They're brilliant. 1220 01:14:53.270 --> 01:14:55.930 There's a lot of conversation. Dick Cavett was similar to that. 1221 01:14:55.949 --> 01:14:57.250 I don't know if you ever watch a lot of 1222 01:14:57.289 --> 01:14:57.829 Dick Cavett. 1223 01:14:57.970 --> 01:14:58.210 No. 1224 01:14:58.270 --> 01:14:59.689 They're so probing. 1225 01:14:59.949 --> 01:15:00.210 Yeah. 1226 01:15:00.470 --> 01:15:06.510 And he gets things out of people that are astonishingly insightful. 1227 01:15:06.550 --> 01:15:13.619 But I think that you said it. It's preparation plus presence. 1228 01:15:13.640 --> 01:15:13.710 Yes. 1229 01:15:14.300 --> 01:15:17.550 If you have, listen, if those organic moments arise, and 1230 01:15:17.560 --> 01:15:20.670 by the way, I've done both, you know, I've been 1231 01:15:20.689 --> 01:15:23.470 in situations where, you know, rumps felt famously where I 1232 01:15:23.470 --> 01:15:25.909 was like, I'm going to get this motherfucker. And they 1233 01:15:25.949

--> 01:15:30.489 were terrible. And, and it showed it, the, the narrowness 1234 01:15:30.529 --> 01:15:33.510 of the questions, my lack of being present, like it 1235 01:15:33.550 --> 01:15:37.609 all showed. And it was, it was poorly executed on 1236 01:15:37.649 --> 01:15:40.220 my part. And, and I try to learn lessons from 1237 01:15:41.220 --> 01:15:45.060 the bad ones, but I'm also cognizant, like, and tend 1238 01:15:45.100 --> 01:15:49.430 to shy away from that idea of drawing the, you know, 1239 01:15:49.470 --> 01:15:51.670 you've got to, you've got to punish them. And you're like, that's, 1240 01:15:51.949 --> 01:15:56.270 it's not punishment. If, if within the body of the interview, 1241 01:15:56.329 --> 01:15:59.109 these things happen, they happen, but you don't know the 1242 01:15:59.210 --> 01:15:59.819 alchemy of it. 1243 01:15:59.949 --> 01:16:02.829 But even like take your Fetterman interview, like you weren't, 1244 01:16:03.220 --> 01:16:06.000 you weren't out for like, it was very respectful. It 1245 01:16:06.039 --> 01:16:08.560 was very respectful. And you're giving him every opportunity to 1246 01:16:08.600 --> 01:16:12.979 explain himself, like every opportunity to explain himself. And you know, 1247 01:16:13.539 --> 01:16:15.380 There was a show on Australian television I used to 1248 01:16:15.420 --> 01:16:20.520 love called Enough Rope. And I just, it was by 1249 01:16:21.680 --> 01:16:23.119 this guy, Andrew Denton. 1250 01:16:23.140 --> 01:16:23.979 Such a good idea. 1251 01:16:24.020 --> 01:16:24.239 Yeah. 1252 01:16:24.350 --> 01:16:27.590 And Andrew Denton's a comedian, very smart guy. 1253 01:16:27.630 --> 01:16:28.050 Yeah, yeah. 1254 01:16:28.090 --> 01:16:31.149 Brilliant. And that's what the show was. It was, he 1255 01:16:31.189 --> 01:16:34.810 gave them enough rope. He was probing. He wasn't disrespectful. 1256 01:16:34.869 --> 01:16:39.050 He was very respectful, actually. He'd done his homework and met, 1257 01:16:39.090 --> 01:16:40.689 it was one of my favorite interview shows. It was 1258 01:16:40.829 --> 01:16:44.050 so good. And I think that's a great concept, you know, 1259 01:16:44.069 --> 01:16:46.569 the enough rope concept for a lot of interviews. It 1260 01:16:46.590 --> 01:16:50.220 doesn't always work. Sometimes you need to like fasten it yourself. 1261 01:16:50.479 --> 01:16:53.159 And that's okay too. And I love the fact that 1262 01:16:53.199 --> 01:16:55.220 you do. I feel like you're the same way, which 1263 01:16:55.300 --> 01:16:58.159 is like the person you're always mad at after an 1264 01:16:58.260 --> 01:16:59.560 interview is yourself. 1265 01:16:59.579 --> 01:17:01.159 Because you're always like, I. 1266 01:17:01.079 --> 01:17:02.810 Should have done, I should have said, you know, all 1267 01:17:02.850 --> 01:17:05.210 those things. Well, I really appreciate the time. By the way, 1268 01:17:05.250 --> 01:17:07.449 I want to correct something I said earlier. We talked 1269 01:17:07.470 --> 01:17:09.470 about Roy Cohn. that he had come out at the 1270 01:17:09.510 --> 01:17:12.760 end of his life. Apparently, he did not. Jillian texted 1271 01:17:12.779 --> 01:17:16.159 me in the middle and said, actually never admitted that 1272 01:17:16.340 --> 01:17:19.239 even through his dying day, which, wow, I did not realize. 1273 01:17:19.279 --> 01:17:22.329 I thought he did at the very end. Jonathan Swan, 1274 01:17:23.329 --> 01:17:25.390 thank you so much for taking the time. Thanks for 1275 01:17:26.649 --> 01:17:30.659 being so thoughtful about the whole process of sort of 1276 01:17:30.779 --> 01:17:33.739 interviewing in the public square and in the eye and 1277 01:17:34.020 --> 01:17:36.060 not going out over your skis, over things that you 1278 01:17:36.119 --> 01:17:38.060 don't know. It's just a rare quality these days. So 1279 01:17:38.100 --> 01:17:41.229 I really appreciate you. And it's so nice to talk 1280 01:17:41.250 --> 01:17:42.789 to you and get some sleep because I know you 1281 01:17:42.810 --> 01:17:43.069 got a baby. 1282 01:17:44.010 --> 01:17:45.100 Thanks, John. Really appreciate it. 1283 01:17:45.390 --> 01:17:54.829 Thanks, man. Thanks, man. You know, before I was surrounded 1284 01:17:54.850 --> 01:17:58.750 by dogs and goats and pigs and sheep and the 1285 01:17:58.789 --> 01:18:03.130 like in the rustic life that I now enjoy. A 1286 01:18:03.170 --> 01:18:05.850 couple of cats. And I was, I thought a responsible 1287 01:18:05.890 --> 01:18:08.729 cat owner. You'd feed them the, what was it? The 1288 01:18:09.050 --> 01:18:13.109 bag that was like, it was like cereal, like Weetabix, 1289 01:18:13.590 --> 01:18:17.109 but for cats, like supposed to provide everything, you know, 1290 01:18:17.310 --> 01:18:20.329 but we know better now and no one knows better 1291 01:18:20.510 --> 01:18:25.449 than Smalls. Smalls cat food. I'm telling you, man, if 1292 01:18:25.529 --> 01:18:28.720 my cat's, ever gotten a hold of smalls or if 1293 01:18:28.779 --> 01:18:31.340 they had known there was another cat like across the 1294 01:18:31.380 --> 01:18:35.529 hall getting smalls they'd have left me tootsweet they they 1295 01:18:35.550 --> 01:18:38.750 would have been out of there i was you know 1296 01:18:39.649 --> 01:18:44.329 feeding them like fast food but smalls man fresh cat 1297 01:18:44.350 --> 01:18:50.649 food preservative free 100 human grade ingredients you find in 1298 01:18:50.680 --> 01:18:55.340 your fridge back then i wasn't eating human grade ingredients 1299 01:18:55.600 --> 01:19:00.180 let alone my cats and by the way like not 1300 01:19:00.199 --> 01:19:03.779 hard to get the delivery right to your door 88 1301 01:19:03.779 --> 01:19:06.020 of cat parents and you know if you know uh 1302 01:19:06.039 --> 01:19:08.020 people that have cats you can't get 88 of them 1303 01:19:08.039 --> 01:19:11.149 to grant anything 88% of them say after feeding Smalls, 1304 01:19:11.430 -->

01:19:16.069 notice the cat has better digestion, softer and shinier, and 1305 01:19:16.109 --> 01:19:19.529 has more energy to play. Stop serving your little carnivore 1306 01:19:19.550 --> 01:19:22.989 a bowl of processed shortcuts for a limited time because 1307 01:19:23.010 --> 01:19:27.949 you are a weekly show listener. Get 60% off your 1308 01:19:27.989 --> 01:19:32.810 first order plus free shipping and free treats for life 1309 01:19:33.550 --> 01:19:37.449 when you head to Smalls.com. slash TWS. One last time, 1310 01:19:37.470 --> 01:19:41.250 that's 60% off your first order, plus free shipping and 1311 01:19:41.329 --> 01:19:47.569 free treats for life when you head to Smalls.com slash TWS. 1312 01:19:52.989 --> 01:19:55.520 How alert was he for having a three-week-old baby? 1313 01:19:57.600 --> 01:19:58.180 Seriously. 1314 01:19:58.199 --> 01:19:59.659 It's pretty impressive, yeah. 1315 01:19:59.819 --> 01:20:01.359 I loved in the middle. I was like, you know, 1316 01:20:01.420 --> 01:20:06.550 there's a baby crying. That's the difference between I think 1317 01:20:07.489 --> 01:20:12.829 not to be overly gendered, a man and a woman. 1318 01:20:14.550 --> 01:20:15.210 Tell us more. 1319 01:20:15.229 --> 01:20:17.409 Mansplain this to us. 1320 01:20:17.449 --> 01:20:20.529 That baby could have cried for 30 minutes and Jonathan 1321 01:20:20.569 --> 01:20:23.050 and I would have just kept talking. Oh yeah. You know, 1322 01:20:23.090 --> 01:20:25.489 it's interesting on the thing. Like if my wife had 1323 01:20:25.520 --> 01:20:27.939 been in the room, she's like, somebody get the baby. 1324 01:20:29.119 --> 01:20:32.239 Like it's a different visceral. It's all that. It's like 1325 01:20:32.319 --> 01:20:33.930 what I was saying to him, like, that day I 1326 01:20:33.989 --> 01:20:35.750 came home and was like, Oh God, work was so 1327 01:20:35.789 --> 01:20:38.569 hard today. And she was like sitting there with the 1328 01:20:38.609 --> 01:20:41.189 two babies and just like, Hey, how about I, how 1329 01:20:41.220 --> 01:20:42.520 about I punch you in the face? 1330 01:20:42.539 --> 01:20:44.420 Do you want to make work a little harder? 1331 01:20:46.000 --> 01:20:48.859 But he really is. I love how the way that 1332 01:20:48.880 --> 01:20:53.699 he described preparation, I thought was all the people whose 1333 01:20:53.760 --> 01:20:57.159 craft I admire. I feel like prepare in that kind 1334 01:20:57.199 --> 01:20:57.600 of a way. 1335 01:20:58.350 --> 01:20:59.119 He studied tape. 1336 01:20:59.520 --> 01:21:02.210 I mean, I have so much respect for that. Like, 1337 01:21:03.090 --> 01:21:05.609 You see so many interviews that and he was actually 1338 01:21:05.670 --> 01:21:08.470 like what he didn't mention was like the 2020 interview. 1339 01:21:08.569 --> 01:21:11.930 He held him to account and they covered a broad 1340 01:21:12.140 --> 01:21:15.460 variety of topics in about 20 minutes. Like it's not 1341 01:21:15.539 --> 01:21:18.500 just that he held him to account on one issue 1342 01:21:18.560 --> 01:21:20.199 and he had to give up so much in order 1343 01:21:20.239 --> 01:21:22.279 to do it. He still was able to get the 1344 01:21:22.319 --> 01:21:23.319 conversation moving. 1345 01:21:23.340 --> 01:21:25.630 You can do both. 1346 01:21:25.689 --> 01:21:26.789 You can walk and chew gum here. 1347 01:21:26.810 --> 01:21:29.630 Right. And it is true that, you know, you can't, 1348 01:21:29.689 --> 01:21:34.529 I think our expectation that reporters must all be in 1349 01:21:34.550 --> 01:21:38.909 the Jeopardy tournament of champions and understand, you know, at 1350 01:21:38.970 --> 01:21:44.250 a granular level, the specifics of every issue. But I 1351 01:21:44.310 --> 01:21:47.069 also think there's room for, you know, and we do 1352 01:21:47.810 --> 01:21:50.109 to give people at home some insight, there is a 1353 01:21:50.149 --> 01:21:54.659 chat and Jillian and Brittany are on it. And also, 1354 01:21:54.939 --> 01:21:59.819 you know, Rebecca is keeping an eye. And when shit's wrong, 1355 01:21:59.899 --> 01:22:02.880 when I say something wrong or somebody says something, there 1356 01:22:03.020 --> 01:22:09.399 is a person who is thinking about the veracity of things. 1357 01:22:11.000 --> 01:22:16.340 And I don't know why that's not more utilized. It's 1358 01:22:16.420 --> 01:22:18.920 not like it's a college course where you're like, you're 1359 01:22:18.960 --> 01:22:23.220 not allowed to use your phone. You are allowed to. Right. 1360 01:22:23.560 --> 01:22:23.859 Yeah. 1361 01:22:24.399 --> 01:22:25.550 Life is open book. 1362 01:22:25.939 --> 01:22:28.300 I mean, Trump certainly treats it open book. You know, 1363 01:22:28.340 --> 01:22:31.319 he's got somebody, somebody handing him things in the Jonathan 1364 01:22:31.340 --> 01:22:33.029 Swan interview. He said, well, let me show you what 1365 01:22:33.069 --> 01:22:35.810 I've seen. You know, he didn't say just going off 1366 01:22:35.829 --> 01:22:36.949 the top of my head. 1367 01:22:37.529 --> 01:22:41.130 That's right. I don't understand why we make interviews that 1368 01:22:41.270 --> 01:22:44.720 kind of a. It's sort of like in the way, 1369 01:22:44.739 --> 01:22:46.939 you know, presidential debates are like, you can't bring your 1370 01:22:47.000 --> 01:22:49.800 notes and you're like, sure. No, you've got to make 1371 01:22:49.819 --> 01:22:52.340 because when you're the president, you're not allowed to use notes. 1372 01:22:53.140 --> 01:22:55.840 You're not allowed to use your phone as president. Like, 1373 01:22:55.899 --> 01:22:56.920 what the fuck are we doing? 1374 01:22:57.359 --> 01:22:57.600 Yeah. 1375 01:22:58.279 --> 01:23:00.350 But I also think you guys, when you were talking 1376 01:23:00.390 --> 01:23:03.229 about how like the expectations of your interviews now and 1377 01:23:03.289 --> 01:23:06.029 how people are out for blood and stuff, I do 1378 01:23:06.050 -->

01:23:09.729 think that ties into the like gamification of like you 1379 01:23:09.789 --> 01:23:15.090 knowing more fact-wise and like crushing on your interviewee. 1380 01:23:15.550 --> 01:23:15.810 Yeah. 1381 01:23:15.930 --> 01:23:19.050 You know what? That's so true. And I do feel 1382 01:23:19.090 --> 01:23:21.569 that like, because there've been a couple of interviews, like 1383 01:23:21.670 --> 01:23:24.720 I remember it began with, There was a Jim Cramer 1384 01:23:24.760 --> 01:23:28.420 interview during the financial crisis. And ever, like, I remember 1385 01:23:28.460 --> 01:23:31.100 being on the street the next day and walking in 1386 01:23:31.119 --> 01:23:33.060 the streets of New York and people like, you fucking 1387 01:23:33.090 --> 01:23:37.149 took Cramer to the house. Like, and you really felt like, like, 1388 01:23:37.189 --> 01:23:40.109 like a boxing match. Like you imagine like what OG 1389 01:23:40.250 --> 01:23:42.470 Ananobi felt like after the tip, you know, not to 1390 01:23:42.510 --> 01:23:46.010 that extent, but like, you're like, oh, that wasn't like, 1391 01:23:46.130 --> 01:23:49.250 the idea isn't necessarily to put people in headlock. It's 1392 01:23:49.510 --> 01:23:53.420 the alchemy of it in the moment. you're so stunned 1393 01:23:53.460 --> 01:23:56.039 by someone's lack of accountability or whatever, but that can't 1394 01:23:56.079 --> 01:23:59.220 be everything. No. And that can't be your goal. It 1395 01:23:59.260 --> 01:24:01.020 skews things too much. Yeah. 1396 01:24:01.060 --> 01:24:01.520 Yes. 1397 01:24:01.800 --> 01:24:04.420 But I also think like interviews have become so friendly 1398 01:24:04.640 --> 01:24:07.319 on the opposite side of that, that people don't expect 1399 01:24:07.399 --> 01:24:09.619 any pushback. You know, maybe Kramer came on your show 1400 01:24:10.020 --> 01:24:12.119 really not expecting anything because. 1401 01:24:12.350 --> 01:24:13.020 Oh, no question. 1402 01:24:13.310 --> 01:24:17.130 People, you know, he's never been asked anything. Like it's, 1403 01:24:17.710 --> 01:24:19.869 we have to, people should be a little scared when 1404 01:24:19.909 --> 01:24:21.489 they sit down and they have to do it anyways. 1405 01:24:21.529 --> 01:24:22.409 I mean, when he mentioned. 1406 01:24:22.920 --> 01:24:23.319 You know, how. 1407 01:24:23.500 --> 01:24:26.659 He really didn't see a future for himself in television 1408 01:24:26.920 --> 01:24:32.119 journalism because of the bookings. Like, Mike Wallace still got interviewed. Like, 1409 01:24:32.239 --> 01:24:35.250 what has changed here? And they, you know, it used 1410 01:24:35.270 --> 01:24:35.869 to be tougher. 1411 01:24:36.109 --> 01:24:37.750 I think it's gotten so much easier. 1412 01:24:38.069 --> 01:24:40.510 I do think it is. Like, I think the politicians 1413 01:24:40.550 --> 01:24:43.710 have figured out what environments they can thrive in and 1414 01:24:43.750 --> 01:24:46.170 what environments they will crumple in. 1415 01:24:46.279 --> 01:24:48.460 And how to derail it. You know, they've really figured 1416 01:24:48.600 --> 01:24:51.140 out how... to get around it, the little cheat codes 1417 01:24:51.159 --> 01:24:53.800 they can do. Actually, that was one of the things 1418 01:24:53.859 --> 01:24:57.500 I was most... It's so basic, but in regime change, 1419 01:24:57.979 --> 01:25:03.100 just how intentional the administration has become about distracting the 1420 01:25:03.119 --> 01:25:06.140 media and how they literally have a list of what 1421 01:25:06.260 --> 01:25:08.279 can we say, right? We want this news story to 1422 01:25:08.319 --> 01:25:10.060 go away. What do we have in the wings? 1423 01:25:10.399 --> 01:25:11.399 Okay, well, let's do this then. 1424 01:25:11.420 --> 01:25:15.300 And it's so strange that there's not a lot of 1425 01:25:15.340 --> 01:25:19.170 self-reflection on the media's part of oh, every, you know, 1426 01:25:19.289 --> 01:25:21.930 it's like that dog and up, you know, where every 1427 01:25:21.949 --> 01:25:25.869 now and again, they're like squirrel. Should we stop doing that? 1428 01:25:26.609 --> 01:25:28.109 And it's in the book. Yeah. 1429 01:25:28.250 --> 01:25:32.310 But when it comes to journalists, politicians, even business leaders, 1430 01:25:32.369 --> 01:25:34.949 they don't have to say yes to interviews anymore. 1431 01:25:35.189 --> 01:25:37.369 No, they don't. Or they only have to say yes 1432 01:25:37.409 --> 01:25:39.850 to the ones they know will go a certain way. 1433 01:25:40.250 --> 01:25:40.869 Of course. 1434 01:25:41.109 --> 01:25:44.829 I mean, we've certainly seen that, but like, I've been surprised, like, 1435 01:25:45.220 --> 01:25:47.000 People will think like, oh, we'll be so friendly to 1436 01:25:47.039 --> 01:25:49.699 Democrats on the show. We've had Democrats say no to 1437 01:25:49.819 --> 01:25:51.970 us because they think it's going to be a tough interview, 1438 01:25:52.010 --> 01:25:54.909 which is bewildering to me. 1439 01:25:55.050 --> 01:25:59.979 But, you know. And if you can't handle questions, what 1440 01:26:00.039 --> 01:26:00.439 are we doing? 1441 01:26:00.460 --> 01:26:01.079 What are we doing? 1442 01:26:01.100 --> 01:26:01.800 Yeah. 1443 01:26:02.140 --> 01:26:05.739 Speaking of which, handling questions. What a segue. 1444 01:26:05.899 --> 01:26:07.890 We've got some doozers for you this week. 1445 01:26:07.970 --> 01:26:08.670 Oh, do we really? All right. 1446 01:26:08.850 --> 01:26:10.569 We're going to hold you to account. 1447 01:26:10.770 --> 01:26:13.289 They have been piling up. We've been away. 1448 01:26:13.390 --> 01:26:14.869 So they've been piling up on there. 1449 01:26:15.029 --> 01:26:15.229 All right. 1450 01:26:15.250 --> 01:26:15.909 A hundred. 1451 01:26:15.970 --> 01:26:18.770 Fucking come at me. Come at me, bro. Remember when 1452 01:26:18.810 --> 01:26:19.810 we were going to, I think we were going to 1453 01:26:19.829 -->

01:26:21.850 do a segment. This is on the old show where 1454 01:26:21.909 --> 01:26:23.109 it's like, we were going to do a segment called 1455 01:26:23.149 --> 01:26:25.550 come at me, bro. And it's like all the people 1456 01:26:25.569 --> 01:26:27.409 that would talk shit about the interviews and all that. 1457 01:26:27.430 --> 01:26:29.569 We would just have them on and we would go. 1458 01:26:29.609 --> 01:26:32.310 It's like that Jubilee. They would just fire at me 1459 01:26:32.350 --> 01:26:34.619 from all different directions. What do they want to know? 1460 01:26:34.640 --> 01:26:35.199 What do they want to know? 1461 01:26:35.960 --> 01:26:37.859 John, I'm really mad at you. 1462 01:26:38.300 --> 01:26:40.659 Oh, come on. I've been on vacation. 1463 01:26:42.300 --> 01:26:45.899 I listened to you on Michelle Obama's podcast. And do 1464 01:26:45.960 --> 01:26:49.479 you really think The Daily Show is giving the country 1465 01:26:49.819 --> 01:26:52.439 political diabetes? Like, come on, brother. 1466 01:26:52.460 --> 01:26:56.279 I don't. I think the point was, I don't know. Like, 1467 01:26:57.859 --> 01:27:02.050 you don't know what. Here's the thing. We think we're 1468 01:27:02.109 --> 01:27:07.430 making healthy food. But we don't, you don't know the overall, 1469 01:27:07.470 --> 01:27:11.470 you can never know. All you can control is what 1470 01:27:11.529 --> 01:27:16.590 you're making. You can't necessarily control how it's being digested, 1471 01:27:16.970 --> 01:27:20.670 what the downstream effects may ultimately be and all those things. 1472 01:27:20.970 --> 01:27:27.090 Do I think that? No. I think that at our best, 1473 01:27:27.810 --> 01:27:32.140 we can identify the space between what you see on 1474 01:27:32.220 --> 01:27:36.079 camera and television and what's actually happening in the rooms 1475 01:27:36.140 --> 01:27:39.619 where that is planned. The best sort of insight in satire. 1476 01:27:40.399 --> 01:27:46.670 But at its worst, it can create a gamified atmosphere 1477 01:27:47.270 --> 01:27:53.510 of disdain that is not, it's sort of like, you know, 1478 01:27:55.369 --> 01:27:59.729 everything can't make you outraged. You have to always try. 1479 01:27:59.850 --> 01:28:03.659 And the difficulty when you're iterating a show that often is, 1480 01:28:04.010 --> 01:28:09.130 is to make sure you've adjusted your governor, that you've 1481 01:28:09.170 --> 01:28:13.680 synchronized everybody's watches so that you're not, it's, I used 1482 01:28:13.720 --> 01:28:17.439 to say it was the, um, snuggles the bear problem 1483 01:28:18.239 --> 01:28:20.539 where you ever seen comedians that like will go on 1484 01:28:20.579 --> 01:28:23.079 stage and be like, if I see that snuggles the 1485 01:28:23.100 --> 01:28:27.250 bear commercial one more time. And you're just like, really, 1486 01:28:27.670 --> 01:28:29.930 where do you go from there? The snuggles the bear 1487 01:28:29.949 --> 01:28:35.380 things really good. You don't want to be a, ungrounded 1488 01:28:35.680 --> 01:28:40.260 outrage machine. And so you're always trying to calibrate that 1489 01:28:41.079 --> 01:28:44.399 because if that's what you become, then it's just Morton down. 1490 01:28:44.439 --> 01:28:47.310 So we're the thing that we try to do. And 1491 01:28:47.329 --> 01:28:49.170 I think it was what I appreciated with Jonathan was 1492 01:28:49.210 --> 01:28:54.130 saying he tried to do is post more the reality of, 1493 01:28:54.329 --> 01:28:56.069 of what you're doing and how you're doing it and 1494 01:28:56.090 --> 01:28:59.399 how you're executing it and where you think, that wasn't 1495 01:28:59.460 --> 01:29:03.770 justified or that, you know, you always want to make 1496 01:29:03.930 --> 01:29:08.689 sure that fairness and veracity and good faith is being, 1497 01:29:08.710 --> 01:29:13.029 and context is a part of, that doesn't mean that 1498 01:29:13.130 --> 01:29:17.479 the tools of satire, hyperbole and, you know, juxtaposition and, and, 1499 01:29:18.119 --> 01:29:21.600 you know, adjectives that are not kind can be used 1500 01:29:21.659 --> 01:29:24.020 because there are things that are contemptible that need to 1501 01:29:24.060 --> 01:29:27.369 be attacked. But you want to make sure that the 1502 01:29:27.449 --> 01:29:34.319 targets justify the deployment and the amplification of the tools 1503 01:29:34.340 --> 01:29:39.420 you're using. And you hope that the downstream effect of 1504 01:29:39.460 --> 01:29:44.960 that isn't a caricaturing, even though caricature and stereotyping are 1505 01:29:45.060 --> 01:29:48.630 such a tool of satire. I don't know if that 1506 01:29:48.670 --> 01:29:50.130 made any sense. No, it did. 1507 01:29:50.149 --> 01:29:52.109 It absolutely did. It really did. 1508 01:29:52.479 --> 01:29:54.630 But that's the point is we're definitely not trying to 1509 01:29:54.689 --> 01:29:57.449 give you diabetes, but we also don't think we're curing anything. 1510 01:29:57.949 --> 01:30:00.489 If that makes sense. Sorry. What do we got next? 1511 01:30:00.510 --> 01:30:01.090 What do we got next? 1512 01:30:01.470 --> 01:30:05.090 Okay. John, you've been recognized for your advocacy on behalf 1513 01:30:05.130 --> 01:30:08.539 of 9-11 first responders. Why do you think Donald Trump 1514 01:30:08.579 --> 01:30:11.039 hasn't been acknowledged for all he says he did? 1515 01:30:13.239 --> 01:30:17.619 I mean, he's the president. I think that's, is that 1516 01:30:17.680 --> 01:30:21.159 not acknowledgement enough of, of all that he's done to 1517 01:30:21.180 --> 01:30:21.470 the country? 1518 01:30:21.699 --> 01:30:21.890 Yeah. 1519 01:30:21.939 --> 01:30:28.590 He, He's such an interesting figure in that, in that 1520 01:30:28.649 --> 01:30:31.250 he really does feel the need, I think, to inject 1521 01:30:31.289 --> 01:30:35.869 himself as kind of a crucial part of that day. Yeah. 1522 01:30:35.970 --> 01:30:39.050 Even from that, you know,

the famous one is him 1523 01:30:39.090 --> 01:30:43.989 going like, I guess my building's the tallest now. It's 1524 01:30:44.050 --> 01:30:48.439 such a, like, you know, Tracy loves the narcissist. She 1525 01:30:48.539 --> 01:30:52.479 loves studying, you know, what's that relationship? Orna's show. I 1526 01:30:52.520 --> 01:30:54.439 can't remember the name of it, but like couples therapy, 1527 01:30:54.479 --> 01:30:58.439 couples therapy where, you know, there'll be such a clear 1528 01:30:59.159 --> 01:31:04.100 narcissist or narcissist on narcissist crime in the, in the couples. 1529 01:31:04.600 --> 01:31:11.039 And she's so attuned to that. It's so obviously a 1530 01:31:12.399 --> 01:31:22.229 destructive caricature trait. It's so obviously corrosive. to the people 1531 01:31:22.250 --> 01:31:28.979 around you. And so to see that rewarded with the 1532 01:31:29.020 --> 01:31:33.680 position of the most powerful person in the, like, it's 1533 01:31:33.739 --> 01:31:40.840 hard to imagine the country in a voluntary relationship with 1534 01:31:40.939 --> 01:31:43.140 such a damaging narcissist. 1535 01:31:44.510 --> 01:31:44.810 Yeah. 1536 01:31:45.710 --> 01:31:49.810 That's, I feel like how did, why are we going 1537 01:31:49.909 --> 01:31:50.390 out with him? 1538 01:31:51.430 --> 01:31:53.550 Yeah, and we broke up with him and we took 1539 01:31:53.590 --> 01:31:54.149 him back. 1540 01:31:54.670 --> 01:31:56.329 Why did we take him back? 1541 01:31:56.409 --> 01:32:00.630 Our girlfriends did not help us. 1542 01:32:00.670 --> 01:32:02.699 He lit the house on fire. 1543 01:32:05.060 --> 01:32:07.079 This is why you need good girlfriends. They stop you 1544 01:32:07.100 --> 01:32:07.960 from doing these things. 1545 01:32:09.079 --> 01:32:12.359 But does like, how, does anybody go like, girl, don't 1546 01:32:12.399 --> 01:32:16.369 you remember? He stormed your house. Yeah. And he did 1547 01:32:16.409 --> 01:32:17.350 all the, and he almost. 1548 01:32:17.390 --> 01:32:18.569 We loved the attention. 1549 01:32:18.829 --> 01:32:19.350 Like it's. 1550 01:32:20.670 --> 01:32:21.640 It's some sick shit. 1551 01:32:21.880 --> 01:32:22.800 That's what I'll tell you. 1552 01:32:23.060 --> 01:32:24.760 But the sick shit is it almost is like a 1553 01:32:24.819 --> 01:32:27.920 country who's like, I know he did that, but he 1554 01:32:27.960 --> 01:32:29.920 was good to me. He bought me. 1555 01:32:29.939 --> 01:32:31.539 He keeps calling me. 1556 01:32:31.939 --> 01:32:32.199 Right. 1557 01:32:32.560 --> 01:32:34.800 You remember my 401k during that relationship? 1558 01:32:34.840 --> 01:32:39.399 Right. It's almost like, but I remember I, you know, 1559 01:32:39.600 --> 01:32:40.880 we used to eat at Le Cirque. 1560 01:32:41.159 --> 01:32:42.810 Yeah, the good times. 1561 01:32:43.060 --> 01:32:44.069 Even that was a fantasy. 1562 01:32:44.250 --> 01:32:46.729 My favorite comment he made this week about the 9-11 1563 01:32:47.170 --> 01:32:50.250 stuff is when he said, I'm not the smallest guy. 1564 01:32:51.069 --> 01:32:53.920 The big strong guys are to come and lift him up. 1565 01:32:54.239 --> 01:32:57.159 And I'm not the smallest guy. I'm big. 1566 01:32:57.180 --> 01:32:58.760 They lifted him up under the arms. 1567 01:32:58.800 --> 01:33:01.050 He does love talking about big strong guys. 1568 01:33:01.289 --> 01:33:04.789 Yeah. It's interesting how that story just arose like a 1569 01:33:04.810 --> 01:33:07.350 couple of years ago and just wasn't one of the, 1570 01:33:07.689 --> 01:33:08.729 you know, stories, but. 1571 01:33:09.119 --> 01:33:11.500 I mean, you could say that it was really big 1572 01:33:11.539 --> 01:33:12.420 of him to hold on. 1573 01:33:12.340 --> 01:33:13.760 To that story for so long. 1574 01:33:13.819 --> 01:33:16.060 A lot of people saw it in the spotlight for, 1575 01:33:16.140 --> 01:33:20.949 you know, not Trump. He said, I'll wait two decades. 1576 01:33:20.789 --> 01:33:24.609 And then let this. It's so interesting to see something 1577 01:33:25.569 --> 01:33:30.149 so fundamentally awful happen to so many people and so 1578 01:33:30.210 --> 01:33:32.789 much bigger than anything any of us can ever conjure. 1579 01:33:33.189 --> 01:33:37.000 And it's almost like his first thought is, how is 1580 01:33:37.039 --> 01:33:37.760 this about me? 1581 01:33:37.779 --> 01:33:37.840 Me. 1582 01:33:38.159 --> 01:33:38.300 Me. 1583 01:33:39.380 --> 01:33:40.500 I want to be part of the story. 1584 01:33:41.060 --> 01:33:41.340 Right. 1585 01:33:41.359 --> 01:33:42.439 They're not talking about me. 1586 01:33:42.939 --> 01:33:45.520 And I am now, aren't I? I guess I'm the 1587 01:33:45.579 --> 01:33:49.180 tallest building now, aren't I? That's my takeaway. What's your 1588 01:33:49.199 --> 01:33:51.939 takeaway from 9-11? I guess the size of my building. 1589 01:33:53.239 --> 01:33:56.220 Isn't that what everybody's takeaway is? Fucking psychotic. 1590 01:33:56.819 --> 01:33:57.399 Yeah. 1591 01:33:57.640 --> 01:34:00.399 Anyway, we're back. I think our next episode is also 1592 01:34:00.420 --> 01:34:04.189 going to be on a Thursday because of, I guess 1593 01:34:04.229 --> 01:34:06.270 maybe it's the timing of next week. I don't really. 1594 01:34:06.409 --> 01:34:06.510 Emmys. 1595 01:34:06.529 --> 01:34:09.869 Emmys. Oh, for God's sakes. Okay. So that's it. Oh yeah. 1596 01:34:10.090 --> 01:34:10.909 Who'd you vote for? 1597 01:34:11.630 --> 01:34:16.229 Oh, everybody. Apparently everybody. Um, but I'm hoping Jimmy, I, I, 1598 01:34:16.310 --> 01:34:19.199 I'd be, I'd be stunned if Jimmy doesn't, uh, although 1599 01:34:19.239 --> 01:34:22.859 now I think there's some, they've changed the rules. I'm 1600 01:34:22.880 --> 01:34:28.560 not really sure, but, uh, you know, but God, what, 1601 01:34:28.739 --> 01:34:30.409 why can't they just fucking do it in New York? 1602 01:34:31.550 --> 01:34:32.890 Just like at least alternate. 1603 01:34:33.489 --> 01:34:36.909 Right. Yeah. Something along those lines. Well, how can they 1604 01:34:36.949 --> 01:34:37.949 stay in touch with us, Brittany? 1605 01:34:38.829 --> 01:34:42.329 Twitter, we are Weekly Show Pod. Instagram, Threads, TikTok, Blue Sky. 1606 01:34:42.489 --> 01:34:44.729 We are Weekly Show Podcast. And you can like, subscribe, 1607 01:34:44.789 --> 01:34:46.750 and comment on our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with 1608 01:34:46.770 --> 01:34:47.289 Jon Stewart. 1609 01:34:47.569 --> 01:34:49.550 Beautiful. It's so nice to see you guys again. It's 1610 01:34:49.590 --> 01:34:52.409 so nice. I hope everybody had a good break and 1611 01:34:52.470 --> 01:34:56.340 enjoyed themselves and got a little rest and relaxation. Our producer, 1612 01:34:56.380 --> 01:34:59.560 Brittany Memevig. Producer, Jillian Spear. Video editor and engineer, Rob Vitolo. 1613 01:34:59.640 --> 01:35:03.600 Audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce. Our associate producer, Rebecca Rotenberg. 1614 01:35:03.960 --> 01:35:06.350 and our executive producers, Chris McShane and Katie Gray. Good 1615 01:35:06.369 --> 01:35:09.510 to see everybody, and we'll see you guys next week. Bye-bye. 1616 01:35:16.020 --> 01:35:19.100 The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. 1617 01:35:19.439 --> 01:35:22.380 It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. 1618 01:35:34.970 --> 01:35:36.239 Paramount Podcasts