บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ EP2S2 - "The Complex, the Complicated and the Controversial" with Amanda Bertucci

different companies 00:03:34.750 --> 00:03:36.629 you've worked for? Have you always been in infrastructure 00:03:36.629 --> 00:03:38.750 or has there been a little bit of a mix? For 00:03:38.750 --> 00:03:42.009 my example, I did have a SaaS product, but it 00:03:42.009 --> 00:03:44.189 was still an infrastructure product, even though 00:03:44.189 --> 00:03:46.759 it was... cloud services only. So it was still 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:49.039 within that same, I would say, field. Talk me 00:03:49.039 --> 00:03:51.000 a little bit through your infrastructure pre 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:52.939 -sales journey, and does it swear at one point 00:03:52.939 --> 00:03:57.060 within SAS? So I started in data protection over 00:03:57.060 --> 00:04:01.199 20 years ago, and I came from technical support, 00:04:01.580 --> 00:04:04.080 professional services, all of that. And I went 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:07.500 into pre -sales when pre -sales was... kind of 00:04:07.500 --> 00:04:09.580 becoming a thing in the infrastructure world, 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:11.819 right? Cause usually you had like the professional 00:04:11.819 --> 00:04:14.879 services people doing the pre -sales role. And 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:18.319 you know, over a little bit over 15 years ago, 00:04:18.500 --> 00:04:21.420 that's when we, I was invited to be part of a 00:04:21.420 --> 00:04:24.259 pre -sales team that was called pre -sales. Yeah. 00:04:24.459 --> 00:04:27.560 So that has the actual title pre -sales. Exactly. 00:04:27.620 --> 00:04:29.699 And I wasn't doing like the double role. I wasn't 00:04:29.699 --> 00:04:32.740 doing like the whole thing, like pre and post 00:04:32.740 --> 00:04:39.170 sales. So. That has changed a lot because I've 00:04:39.170 --> 00:04:41.230 been mostly in data protection for a few years. 00:04:41.329 --> 00:04:44.170 I was also in cloud infrastructure. I do have 00:04:44.170 --> 00:04:47.610 a SaaS product I work with today. In my previous 00:04:47.610 --> 00:04:51.910 company, we also had some SaaS offerings, but 00:04:51.910 --> 00:04:55.949 my DNA is infrastructure. It's changed a lot 00:04:55.949 --> 00:04:59.649 because we started incorporating practices into 00:04:59.649 --> 00:05:02.689 the infrastructure world that are probably very 00:05:02.689 --> 00:05:05.769 common on SaaS today. You need to sell more, 00:05:05.829 --> 00:05:09.230 you need to sell faster. And the way that you 00:05:09.230 --> 00:05:11.709 approach the customers, it's very easy to get 00:05:11.709 --> 00:05:15.430 into the harbor tour when you work with infrastructure, 00:05:15.589 --> 00:05:18.069 because your audience is very technical. Yeah. 00:05:18.490 --> 00:05:20.410 And they want to see everything, because they 00:05:20.410 --> 00:05:22.029 know they're getting the tool. So they want to 00:05:22.029 --> 00:05:23.490 know all of the settings. They want to know all 00:05:23.490 --> 00:05:24.670 of the functions and features that they have. 00:05:24.750 --> 00:05:26.089 They want to know all of the buttons and what 00:05:26.089 --> 00:05:28.949 do they do. Exactly. And that's a huge trap. 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:33.279 I mean, you have to be very careful when you're 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:35.019 narrowing down what you want to show and how 00:05:35.019 --> 00:05:37.600 you're positioning things. Otherwise, you just 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:41.339 go into the rabbit hole and it's just gets confusing 00:05:41.339 --> 00:05:44.540 and overwhelming for everyone. I think that this 00:05:44.540 --> 00:05:47.639 has been changing in the infrastructure world 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:50.740 in the past few years. It's probably changing 00:05:50.740 --> 00:05:54.300 in this lower pace than SAS world, I would say. 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:58.399 I would agree. SAS world is more dynamic and 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:02.660 it's probably No this well i might be might be 00:06:02.660 --> 00:06:05.259 an unfair comment but coming from my perspective 00:06:05.259 --> 00:06:08.139 like we need to have such a broad knowledge. 00:06:08.939 --> 00:06:12.079 It's really easy to get lost in the details of 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.500 things you know so just to give me an example 00:06:14.500 --> 00:06:17.040 like working with data protection. I have to 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:19.980 know about operating systems i have to know about 00:06:19.980 --> 00:06:22.860 servers like hardware actual hardware. I have 00:06:22.860 --> 00:06:25.500 to have a deep knowledge in storage. I have to 00:06:25.500 --> 00:06:28.399 know more superficially about different applications 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:30.980 that a customer can have, databases they might 00:06:30.980 --> 00:06:35.600 use, cloud, like hyperscalers, how the hyperscalers 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:38.439 work, Kubernetes, different types of containers. 00:06:39.060 --> 00:06:40.079 Say networking. Say networking. Say networking. 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:43.360 Networking, of course. You can talk about infrastructure 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:44.980 without talking about networking, right? There 00:06:44.980 --> 00:06:50.370 you go. And you have to know the basics. You 00:06:50.370 --> 00:06:52.829 don't have to be a super expert in everything, 00:06:52.910 --> 00:06:55.189 but you have to know a little bit of everything 00:06:55.189 --> 00:06:57.029 because these are the conversations you're going 00:06:57.029 --> 00:07:00.050 to be having with your customer. And when you're 00:07:00.050 --> 00:07:02.310 architecting a solution or when you're designing 00:07:02.310 --> 00:07:04.509 a solution, you need to have these details in 00:07:04.509 --> 00:07:07.949 mind. How many VLANs are involved? What kind 00:07:07.949 --> 00:07:11.360 of infrastructure is there? How are they interconnected? 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:14.360 What is the bandwidth? What kind of servers they 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:16.959 have? What type of disks their storage devices 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:20.120 have? It's quite broad.

It's quite broad. Yeah, 00:07:20.379 --> 00:07:23.300 I completely resonate with that. So from my experience, 00:07:23.379 --> 00:07:25.540 and it was unfortunately a sort of a negative 00:07:25.540 --> 00:07:27.360 experience. So when I first joined VMware, there 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:29.040 was another lady that joined alongside with me. 00:07:29.379 --> 00:07:32.959 And the differences between both of us as associates 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:35.220 coming into VMware was that I came from a technical 00:07:35.220 --> 00:07:36.939 background. So I used to be an African junior 00:07:36.939 --> 00:07:39.680 before I joined VMware. She came in from a military 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:41.759 background. So she had all of the customer facing 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:45.100 skills. She had that side of free sales tucked 00:07:45.100 --> 00:07:47.939 away. And it was really like the idea of my manager 00:07:47.939 --> 00:07:50.120 at the time was really to, for us, as we're working 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:52.139 together, sort of for that knowledge to bleed 00:07:52.139 --> 00:07:54.680 into each other a little bit. But then I think 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:58.079 very quickly, we realized that that fundamental 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.199 technological knowledge to your point about knowing 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:03.240 a little bit of servers, having touched a little 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:05.910 bit of the data center design. having done networking, 00:08:06.329 --> 00:08:08.250 having done a little bit of security beforehand, 00:08:08.470 --> 00:08:09.649 having done a little bit of that, a little bit 00:08:09.649 --> 00:08:13.569 of this, was incredibly fundamental to a success 00:08:13.569 --> 00:08:16.490 as someone coming into this incredibly steep 00:08:16.490 --> 00:08:18.550 learning curve of becoming a pre -sales person 00:08:18.550 --> 00:08:21.430 within infrastructure. Then unfortunately, she 00:08:21.430 --> 00:08:24.550 didn't make that cut, right? So she decided to 00:08:24.550 --> 00:08:28.730 leave IT entirely, which was such a devastating 00:08:28.730 --> 00:08:32.509 blow to me, even personally, let alone to her. 00:08:32.779 --> 00:08:35.480 Because looking at someone who was like my comrade 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:38.259 coming into this field, it was just like, oh 00:08:38.259 --> 00:08:40.299 no, I could have done more. I could have done 00:08:40.299 --> 00:08:42.879 better to help her. But it was later on, looking 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:46.059 back at it now, it's more of a, there is so much 00:08:46.059 --> 00:08:49.179 prerequisite knowledge for someone to be within 00:08:49.179 --> 00:08:52.159 infrastructure pre -sales. And a question back 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:54.419 to you and something for me also to think about 00:08:54.419 --> 00:08:57.220 a little bit is, is it because of the prospects 00:08:57.220 --> 00:08:59.580 and customers that we're talking to? Is the expectation 00:08:59.580 --> 00:09:03.190 of us a little bit higher potentially? than our 00:09:03.190 --> 00:09:06.850 SaaS counterparts? Or is it just our own, you 00:09:06.850 --> 00:09:09.730 know, an element of our own making? Did we cause 00:09:09.730 --> 00:09:12.610 this to ourselves because of the type of people 00:09:12.610 --> 00:09:14.590 that happen to be in infrastructure pre -sales? 00:09:14.950 --> 00:09:19.110 This can have so many nuances because there is 00:09:19.110 --> 00:09:21.789 a thing about culture, right, about being the 00:09:21.789 --> 00:09:25.090 techie. It's something about the techie culture. 00:09:25.429 --> 00:09:27.570 Techies like to show how much they know, right? 00:09:28.309 --> 00:09:30.269 And a lot of us pre -sales, we fall into that. 00:09:30.269 --> 00:09:33.129 We want to show the customer that we got it all 00:09:33.129 --> 00:09:36.070 figured out. And sometimes it's not the best 00:09:36.070 --> 00:09:38.409 path to go. Sometimes it's okay to say, hey, 00:09:38.529 --> 00:09:41.330 I'm not really an expert on this, but I know 00:09:41.330 --> 00:09:43.970 who to ask and I can come back with an answer 00:09:43.970 --> 00:09:46.789 for you. So I think there's a lot of that kind 00:09:46.789 --> 00:09:50.460 of... techie ego thing that happens in infrastructure. 00:09:50.539 --> 00:09:52.399 Have you ever felt that like as an expectation 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:54.779 from a customer that you need to be knowing this 00:09:54.779 --> 00:09:56.419 stuff if you're going to be talking to them about 00:09:56.419 --> 00:10:01.299 like data security? I used to think so. In the 00:10:01.299 --> 00:10:04.019 past few years, I've been kind of deconstructing 00:10:04.019 --> 00:10:08.039 that I think there is there is a level of you 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:10.159 need to know a little bit about everything, but 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:12.720 it's okay that I'm not an expert on everything. 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:16.019 And I think that's that's quite big because when 00:10:16.620 --> 00:10:20.039 I think when I first started doing pre -sales 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:22.059 within infrastructure, specifically with data 00:10:22.059 --> 00:10:24.759 protection, I had that in my head that I had 00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:28.000 to show that I knew everything, that I was that 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.659 tech guru that the customer could count on. And 00:10:31.659 --> 00:10:34.200 today I see it a little bit differently. There's 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:38.139 this foundational knowledge that we need to have, 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:41.379 but at the same time, I don't need to show the 00:10:41.379 --> 00:10:44.059 customer that I know everything in depth. I need 00:10:44.059 --> 00:10:47.210 to show them that I know how to listen to them 00:10:47.210 --> 00:10:51.009 and that I can architect a solution that is going 00:10:51.009 --> 00:10:54.049 to solve their problems. And it seems like it's 00:10:54.049 --> 00:10:56.330 common sense, but sometimes it's very hard to 00:10:56.330 -->

00:10:57.990 understand that, you know, it's very hard to 00:10:57.990 --> 00:11:01.090 make that shift. Especially when you come from, 00:11:01.090 --> 00:11:03.549 let's say professional services where you're 00:11:03.549 --> 00:11:06.370 just trying to, you're highly specialized in 00:11:06.370 --> 00:11:09.909 what you do and you do your hands on like every 00:11:09.909 --> 00:11:12.340 day. But when you move into pre -sales, there 00:11:12.340 --> 00:11:14.360 are other things that you need to develop. And 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:18.240 I think that customers value more like your ability 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:22.759 to listen and understand them than showing your 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:26.779 big book of certifications. By the way, that 00:11:26.779 --> 00:11:29.919 part about the shift between switching from being, 00:11:30.139 --> 00:11:32.980 oh, I need to be the expert to I am there to 00:11:32.980 --> 00:11:36.220 be the customer's perspective, let's say internally, 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:39.940 or I'm there to be there. their voice in a way. 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:41.759 I had to make that shift very quickly because 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:45.440 as I remember, it was about the 9th, 10th month 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.019 mark where I was really deep into this idea of 00:11:48.019 --> 00:11:49.620 I need to be an expert, I need to know everything 00:11:49.620 --> 00:11:52.460 about the product. I was doing hands -on demos, 00:11:52.580 --> 00:11:54.159 I was breaking the product every other day for 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:56.360 the sake of learning over and over and going 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:59.639 to the minutiae. But then I would get onto a 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:01.960 call with a customer who has been using the product 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:04.159 for longer than I have even known about it. They've 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:06.700 been using it for plus years and I'm just like, 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:09.370 okay, I can never beat that. I can never know 00:12:09.370 --> 00:12:12.389 more about the product that I am selling than 00:12:12.389 --> 00:12:15.710 this individual. So I had to very quickly shift 00:12:15.710 --> 00:12:17.769 my mentality from, you don't have to know it 00:12:17.769 --> 00:12:20.549 all. You don't have to know everything about 00:12:20.549 --> 00:12:23.490 it. Because even if I spend all of my free time 00:12:23.490 --> 00:12:25.649 to do that, I still wouldn't know, even to your 00:12:25.649 --> 00:12:28.350 point, as much as a professional services person. 00:12:28.730 --> 00:12:30.669 Because I don't do all of the implementations. 00:12:30.730 --> 00:12:34.549 I just talk about it all the time. So then it 00:12:34.549 --> 00:12:37.029 was like, okay. then what is my value here, right? 00:12:37.090 --> 00:12:40.509 I had a real like prices of identity. I'm like, 00:12:40.669 --> 00:12:43.889 okay, if I'm not the techie, if I'm not the techiest 00:12:43.889 --> 00:12:47.230 person on this call, then what is my point? Right? 00:12:47.230 --> 00:12:49.610 And that was a really huge revelation about like, 00:12:49.669 --> 00:12:52.149 okay, then what is it that I do? And that's about 00:12:52.149 --> 00:12:54.029 where like my biggest shift happened as a pre 00:12:54.029 --> 00:12:57.090 -sales person from just being the NSX person, 00:12:57.470 --> 00:12:59.549 right? From being like the security guy, the 00:12:59.549 --> 00:13:02.080 security person. I walked in and going like, 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:05.059 okay, I am your advocate now internally into 00:13:05.059 --> 00:13:08.539 VMware. I'm here to listen exactly to you. I'm 00:13:08.539 --> 00:13:10.259 here to understand more about your vertical. 00:13:10.539 --> 00:13:13.159 I'm here to understand exactly about your infrastructure. 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:15.559 Who are the other companies that you're using 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:17.639 internally? What are the other things that you 00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:20.759 guys have? Map it all out and help you take it 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:23.100 from, we need some, in my case, the use case 00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:25.299 was most likely the micro segmentation, from 00:13:25.299 --> 00:13:27.500 we need micro segmentation to you guys actually 00:13:27.500 --> 00:13:30.389 having a in micro segmentation solution in place. 00:13:31.110 --> 00:13:34.230 That was my role, but man, was that a shift. 00:13:34.649 --> 00:13:37.190 Also, it didn't help that at home, I have a network 00:13:37.190 --> 00:13:39.950 engineer in the other office, that whenever, 00:13:40.169 --> 00:13:42.450 like when I made that shift mentally and I started 00:13:42.450 --> 00:13:44.370 learning more about about sales, about pre -sales 00:13:44.370 --> 00:13:46.169 in particular, I was reading the first book I 00:13:46.169 --> 00:13:47.950 ever read on the topic was Chris White's book. 00:13:49.579 --> 00:13:53.100 Same. Yeah, so when I started reading these things, 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:54.820 and like talking to my partner about all of this 00:13:54.820 --> 00:13:56.940 stuff, he would turn around and go like, oh, 00:13:56.980 --> 00:13:59.639 so now you're a salesperson. That just grinded 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:03.000 my gears to at the end degree is like, no, I'm 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.320 a techie. And it took me again, like a couple 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:07.720 of months to like, oh, no, actually, it's okay. 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:10.659 I am into I am in technical sales. That's fine. 00:14:11.419 --> 00:14:14.299 Yeah. I'm not a salesperson. We have it in the 00:14:14.299 --> 00:14:18.710 title. Yeah, exactly. It's quite humbling actually 00:14:18.710 --> 00:14:20.629 because you're getting to that the thing I want 00:14:20.629 --> 00:14:22.490 to be the expert and then you think better than 00:14:22.490 --> 00:14:24.110 everyone and then you go to the customer and 00:14:24.110 --> 00:14:25.970 the customer knows more than you and you're like. 00:14:26.529 -->

00:14:28.450 So what am I doing here and that's when you have 00:14:28.450 --> 00:14:31.330 to start listening it's very humbling for me 00:14:31.330 --> 00:14:35.009 I think the biggest shift was first of all when 00:14:35.009 --> 00:14:37.750 I when I well there were two situations the first 00:14:37.750 --> 00:14:40.590 of them was moving into pre sales leadership. 00:14:41.330 --> 00:14:44.809 That was like for me it was like. starting over 00:14:44.809 --> 00:14:49.230 because you just have to forget a lot of the 00:14:49.230 --> 00:14:51.549 things that you do on a daily basis and open 00:14:51.549 --> 00:14:55.409 up to learning new stuff. And that's all that 00:14:55.409 --> 00:14:58.850 detail that doesn't really matter anymore. And 00:14:58.850 --> 00:15:02.289 then the second situation was moving from data 00:15:02.289 --> 00:15:05.230 protection to cloud infrastructure. It's still 00:15:05.230 --> 00:15:07.850 within the infrastructure world, but it was a 00:15:07.850 --> 00:15:10.509 completely different set of products, set of 00:15:10.509 --> 00:15:12.629 customers I was working with at the time with 00:15:12.629 --> 00:15:15.809 MSPs. It's a different audience. It's a different 00:15:15.809 --> 00:15:18.830 approach. And it's very humbling to be like, 00:15:18.950 --> 00:15:21.909 okay, I'm 20 years into my career and I can learn 00:15:21.909 --> 00:15:25.269 something new. And I don't have to be like the 00:15:25.269 --> 00:15:27.850 biggest expert on this, but I need to be able 00:15:27.850 --> 00:15:31.110 to listen to my customer, architect the solution. 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.299 have a conversation with them. So, you know, 00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:36.679 it puts a lot of these things into perspective, 00:15:36.899 --> 00:15:41.299 especially our techie ego. Yeah. Realize. I mean, 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:44.379 I, I love working with presales. You know, the 00:15:44.379 --> 00:15:47.679 best part of my job is when I'm showing something 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:49.879 to the customer and the customer tells me, well, 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.259 this is exactly what I need. Yeah. It means I 00:15:53.259 --> 00:15:55.320 did everything right. You know, I heard what 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:59.389 they needed, you know, and If I do it in an easy 00:15:59.389 --> 00:16:02.309 way for me, if it doesn't generate like a humongous 00:16:02.309 --> 00:16:04.549 amount of work, then it's even better, you know, 00:16:04.669 --> 00:16:06.730 because I'm being efficient and I'm giving the 00:16:06.730 --> 00:16:10.210 customer what they want. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 00:16:10.909 --> 00:16:12.610 You did say something a little bit earlier, if 00:16:12.610 --> 00:16:14.269 I can like sort of circle back around to that, 00:16:14.309 --> 00:16:16.970 which I really like because I think about this 00:16:16.970 --> 00:16:20.039 very often, which is As part of what I could 00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:21.620 hear and what conversations you and I have had,

00:16:21.940 --> 00:16:24.379 there's a huge chunk of your day -to -day work 00:16:24.379 --> 00:16:26.679 with customers that is around architecting and 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:29.519 helping them design the solution. So the way 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:33.279 it was at VMware is I usually, I felt like my 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:38.159 role was to design an architect to a point where 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:41.000 the customer can actually see that this is something 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:43.350 for them. not the final official one that's actually 00:16:43.350 --> 00:16:44.929 going to be implemented because that was professional 00:16:44.929 --> 00:16:47.070 services, right? Because they, again, they were 00:16:47.070 --> 00:16:49.750 the people who knew all the nuances and all the... 00:16:49.750 --> 00:16:51.970 I had a list of prerequisites, but they knew 00:16:51.970 --> 00:16:54.389 all of them by heart. And what are the potential 00:16:54.389 --> 00:16:56.289 stumbling blocks that you need to consider as 00:16:56.289 --> 00:16:58.710 you are designing a complex solution in infrastructure, 00:16:58.710 --> 00:17:00.070 right? Because there are so many moving parts 00:17:00.070 --> 00:17:03.269 and so many dependencies that it's just, it's 00:17:03.269 --> 00:17:08.170 haywiring. So really, I find it very, very interesting 00:17:08.170 --> 00:17:12.359 as I'm listening to you as well. I think we have 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:14.339 the habit of blending those roles a little bit 00:17:14.339 --> 00:17:17.200 between pre -sales, purely pre -sales, aka the 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:18.920 person coming in, demonstrating, having conversations, 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:22.480 an architect slash design person. And do you 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:24.940 think that's uniquely to us in infrastructure 00:17:24.940 --> 00:17:28.539 or do you think that is more towards SaaS as 00:17:28.539 --> 00:17:32.640 well? I wouldn't be able to have an opinion on. 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:36.400 SAS specifically, because I think from the perspective 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:40.359 of I have one SAS product in my portfolio, the 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:43.980 architecting part of it is very different, right? 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:46.880 When you work with an infrastructure product, 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:50.759 I think you get a lot more hands -on on customizing 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:54.299 the solution for your customer. While in SAS, 00:17:54.500 --> 00:17:57.220 you have things kind of prepackaged, right? So 00:17:57.220 --> 00:17:59.799 you're just going to be like, if it's small, 00:17:59.980 --> 00:18:03.579 medium or large size for the customer. My solution 00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:05.200 was exactly the same, like the SaaS product I 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:06.980 was selling was practically like, yeah, you know, 00:18:07.019 --> 00:18:09.259 how many hosts are you using? Yeah, you need 00:18:09.259 --> 00:18:11.779 extra large, fantastic. There's the package, 00:18:11.819 -->

00:18:13.539 just install it, let it run, you know, make sure 00:18:13.539 --> 00:18:15.640 that all these ports are open, good to go and 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:18.819 right. It was about that level of intricacies. 00:18:19.299 --> 00:18:20.700 And apologies, I may have pushed you like a little 00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:23.119 bit of an uncomfortable situation like, oh, yeah, 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:24.819 compare something that you're not very familiar 00:18:24.819 --> 00:18:26.980 with something you're very familiar with. But 00:18:26.980 --> 00:18:30.940 just from I guess also from what we're listening 00:18:30.940 --> 00:18:32.859 and hearing from our colleagues within the SaaS 00:18:32.859 --> 00:18:35.180 space and to your point about even some of the 00:18:35.180 --> 00:18:36.740 training and the things we're hearing, there 00:18:36.740 --> 00:18:38.660 isn't really a lot of conversations there around, 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:42.160 but then how do you balance this from wanting 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:44.259 to sit down and architect everything and have 00:18:44.259 --> 00:18:46.099 a finished design sense of customer? When is 00:18:46.099 --> 00:18:48.259 your stopping point? Like at one point you say, 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:49.740 no, no, no, this is not professional services. 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:52.279 I don't hear a lot of conversations on that topic. 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.759 I don't hear them either. And I think... There's 00:18:56.759 --> 00:18:58.940 so many of us out there like infrastructure pre 00:18:58.940 --> 00:19:01.900 -sales people. Yay. But I think that a lot of 00:19:01.900 --> 00:19:04.980 what we see online or in the communities, the 00:19:04.980 --> 00:19:08.559 pre -sales communities are quite not focused 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:12.839 on us. I think that you're completely right. 00:19:12.859 --> 00:19:17.740 There's this blend between a pre -sales person 00:19:17.740 --> 00:19:20.980 and an architect when you do infrastructure pre 00:19:20.980 --> 00:19:24.700 -sales. I think there are so many different levels 00:19:24.700 --> 00:19:28.380 because I'm a frontline se right so i'm i'm the 00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:31.119 one on the street going with my a and you know 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:33.539 just knocking on doors and you know designing 00:19:33.539 --> 00:19:36.519 solutions but i do like more let's say high level 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:39.440 work. If i need help if i need an expert i have 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:41.839 a team of experts that can back me up and there 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:45.400 is still. Yeah if i need to do an architecture 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:49.180 yeah so we have like. At convol we have different 00:19:49.180 --> 00:19:53.440 levels of se's. So for each of part of the portfolio, 00:19:53.740 --> 00:19:56.500 we have, you know, a team of essays that can 00:19:56.500 --> 00:20:00.180 help. So if I need to go very much deep in the 00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:04.059 technology or an architecture or

whatever, I 00:20:04.059 --> 00:20:06.059 can count on somebody that has more technical 00:20:06.059 --> 00:20:09.119 knowledge than I do. Very interesting to hear 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:10.880 because VMware had a very similar structure, 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:13.380 right? So we have the core team that was the, 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:16.680 they knew all of the products to a certain level. 00:20:16.910 --> 00:20:18.410 And then you had the specialist, which I was 00:20:18.410 --> 00:20:20.430 a part of. So for example, like I had a subgroup 00:20:20.430 --> 00:20:23.450 of then networking security products that this 00:20:23.450 --> 00:20:25.829 was then my specialty. And like when I heard 00:20:25.829 --> 00:20:27.829 you say this is like, oh yeah, like I know the 00:20:27.829 --> 00:20:30.009 specialist because I was one of them in the different 00:20:30.009 --> 00:20:32.890 in the different world. But yeah. So I think 00:20:32.890 --> 00:20:35.609 that I would say that I would have a more like 00:20:35.609 --> 00:20:39.420 my role would be more on pre -sales and A bit 00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:42.599 of an architect, I can do like simpler architectures 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.519 by myself, but like on bigger projects, I usually 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:48.380 need like a validation from an expert, which 00:20:48.380 --> 00:20:50.259 is great for me because if I make a mistake, 00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:53.680 I have somebody else backing me up. But for example, 00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:56.200 I've been in a situation recently with a customer 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:01.420 that it's a very strategic project and the people 00:21:01.420 --> 00:21:04.299 that would be attending some demos we had to 00:21:04.299 --> 00:21:06.660 do were very, very technical. So I took an expert 00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:11.410 with me. but I actually prepared the demo using 00:21:11.410 --> 00:21:16.049 a methodology to go through. Because if I let 00:21:16.049 --> 00:21:18.009 this guy go by himself, he's going to go into 00:21:18.009 --> 00:21:19.829 the rabbit hole and the customer is going to 00:21:19.829 --> 00:21:23.269 be bored. I need to sell. So we prepared together 00:21:23.269 --> 00:21:26.009 how our demo is going to look like. We prepared 00:21:26.009 --> 00:21:29.650 pauses and times for questions and what we're 00:21:29.650 --> 00:21:31.269 going to say, what are the benefits we're going 00:21:31.269 --> 00:21:33.250 to convey, what do we want to show, how we want 00:21:33.250 --> 00:21:37.869 to show it. We rehearsed it and It went so smoothly 00:21:37.869 --> 00:21:39.990 with the customer and all the questions that 00:21:39.990 --> 00:21:42.130 we wanted the customer to ask, the customer asked, 00:21:42.569 --> 00:21:45.130 and it just helped us reinforce the messaging 00:21:45.130 --> 00:21:47.750 that we were trying to bring through these demos. 00:21:48.670 --> 00:21:51.029 So these guys, for example, they're more like 00:21:51.029 --> 00:21:55.410 experts in their parts of the portfolio. They 00:21:55.410 --> 00:21:58.910 sometimes may lack some of the pre -sales skills, 00:21:58.910 --> 00:22:00.950 right? And that's where I come to help. We help 00:22:00.950 --> 00:22:04.039 each other. So it doesn't mean that... Because 00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:07.039 they don't have that such a deep knowledge on 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.200 a specific feature or tool within my portfolio. 00:22:10.660 --> 00:22:13.660 It doesn't mean that I'm less than the guy who 00:22:13.660 --> 00:22:16.220 knows it all, you know? We can't compliment each 00:22:16.220 --> 00:22:19.000 other because I have skills that they don't have, 00:22:19.299 --> 00:22:22.019 right? And you displayed it in that example exactly 00:22:22.019 --> 00:22:26.119 like where whilst you allow them to focus on 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:28.359 the things that they're best at, which is again, 00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:29.980 going in a little bit deeper, going into like 00:22:29.980 --> 00:22:33.019 specifically that product set so they can They 00:22:33.019 --> 00:22:35.440 can nerd out as much as they want, but you're 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:37.380 there to guide the conversation in an effective 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:40.619 way, which I think to a certain degree, and again, 00:22:40.619 --> 00:22:42.660 it's really funny to hear you say this as concerning 00:22:42.660 --> 00:22:45.720 like another specialist, because I feel, and 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:47.779 to the point of like, you know, my journey throughout 00:22:47.779 --> 00:22:49.980 VMware, I saw that in my colleagues. My colleagues 00:22:49.980 --> 00:22:51.680 were like that, and they were absolutely fantastic, 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:53.180 right? Not all of them. And there were like clear 00:22:53.180 --> 00:22:55.160 exceptions that I then learned the most from, 00:22:55.500 --> 00:22:57.359 but all of them were so deeply technical and 00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:59.839 it stood the product so well that as you said, 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:01.940 like they get lost a little bit in their own... 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.859 world is like, oh, this is their whole world. 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:07.779 And like, it took me a lot of time to sort of 00:23:07.779 --> 00:23:09.339 realize it's like, okay, what are the points 00:23:09.339 --> 00:23:10.980 of this product? What are the unique selling 00:23:10.980 --> 00:23:13.599 features of this product that I need to focus 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:16.400 in with this customer whilst I know this product 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:19.259 by heart and I adore it. And all of the features 00:23:19.259 --> 00:23:21.980 I think are absolutely amazing. But really for 00:23:21.980 --> 00:23:24.099 this subset of customers that I'm working with, 00:23:24.099 --> 00:23:26.740 you know, in a specific scenario. Not all of 00:23:26.740 --> 00:23:29.920 them apply. So I need to shut my gob and tell 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:31.759 them about everything. Even though my

heart is 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:33.599 telling me like, tell them everything. Tell them 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:36.119 about the monitoring. Look at this cool blue 00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:38.980 button. They have to know about it. Yeah. Yeah. 00:23:39.220 --> 00:23:41.119 Do they know that they can do timed rules? It's 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.000 like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:45.859 know it's cool. It's just doesn't matter. Just 00:23:45.859 --> 00:23:48.059 Yeah, though it took a lot of it took a lot of 00:23:48.059 --> 00:23:51.700 training myself really. I know. I know. Yeah. 00:23:52.230 --> 00:23:56.150 I mean, and today I know very clearly that I 00:23:56.150 --> 00:23:59.289 love, like I said, I love pre -sales and I tell 00:23:59.289 --> 00:24:02.349 this to my manager as well. I don't know if I 00:24:02.349 --> 00:24:04.210 want to be a specialist in that level because 00:24:04.210 --> 00:24:06.970 I like being on the front line, going in the 00:24:06.970 --> 00:24:11.349 street with my AE and, you know, bringing your 00:24:11.349 --> 00:24:14.269 projects in. If you look at, I think you probably 00:24:14.269 --> 00:24:16.930 have seen like those charts with the sales cycle 00:24:16.930 --> 00:24:19.049 and where the pre -sales comes in and when it 00:24:19.049 --> 00:24:22.099 goes back to sales. I see that has different 00:24:22.099 --> 00:24:25.660 levels now because you have like the sales cycle 00:24:25.660 --> 00:24:28.160 you have where pre -sales comes in and then you 00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:31.220 have when your expert comes in and maybe you 00:24:31.220 --> 00:24:35.779 have a POC. I usually run POCs with a professional 00:24:35.779 --> 00:24:39.059 services counterpart because again, it's infrastructure. 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:42.279 A POC infrastructure is always a nightmare. So 00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:45.039 I want to bring somebody who's installing and 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:48.349 troubleshooting the product every day. specialist 00:24:48.349 --> 00:24:50.710 pre -sales counterpart. They don't do that either. 00:24:50.769 --> 00:24:52.569 I don't do that. They don't do that. But the 00:24:52.569 --> 00:24:54.509 professional guys, the professional services 00:24:54.509 --> 00:24:59.549 guy does it. So I usually bring a professional 00:24:59.549 --> 00:25:02.710 services person with me to POCs. I manage the 00:25:02.710 --> 00:25:06.329 POCs. I make sure that we're not getting lost 00:25:06.329 --> 00:25:09.369 in the tasks. You do a little bit of a project 00:25:09.369 --> 00:25:13.170 manager role there because your objective is 00:25:13.170 --> 00:25:15.519 to show the customer that what they want to test 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:18.279 is, is feasible. We do it the way they want it. 00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:20.920 And we got the technical validation there, which 00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:24.059 is something that with SaaS, it's probably much 00:25:24.059 --> 00:25:27.200 easier to like, let

the customer play a little 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:30.059 bit with the product. When we talk about infrastructure, 00:25:30.059 --> 00:25:34.619 it's always, always complex. Yeah. I have to 00:25:34.619 --> 00:25:39.220 say, I hate new season, but they are so important. 00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:41.940 You know, we can't run away from them. Yeah, 00:25:42.059 --> 00:25:44.720 well, we say that, but a huge chunk of my role 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.819 was practically POC avoidance. So I know from 00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:50.299 where we stood, especially when it comes to security 00:25:50.299 --> 00:25:54.160 product, right? Where there's so many, we can 00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:57.940 mess up so much in the POC if it's not specifically, 00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:01.859 if it's not locked down enough, if it's not a 00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:05.059 testing environment. I have to tell you the story 00:26:05.059 --> 00:26:08.000 because I think it's amazing. I had a customer 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:09.680 who had a really good relationship with that 00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:12.289 team. They had a moment, so they had one of the 00:26:12.289 --> 00:26:14.390 products in, the one that actually could lock 00:26:14.390 --> 00:26:16.910 down traffic flow and everything else, which 00:26:16.910 --> 00:26:19.789 was really important. And I knew they had installed 00:26:19.789 --> 00:26:24.769 it in their actual ongoing infrastructure. And 00:26:24.769 --> 00:26:26.670 as I was explaining things to them, I was talking 00:26:26.670 --> 00:26:28.990 to them about the two main security rules that 00:26:28.990 --> 00:26:31.289 I think everyone had to have a place. One that 00:26:31.289 --> 00:26:33.369 allows everything, in case you change something 00:26:33.369 --> 00:26:35.390 and suddenly nothing works. And one that denies 00:26:35.390 --> 00:26:38.269 everything, in case there is an ongoing cyber 00:26:38.269 --> 00:26:41.390 attack. So you just log down all the doors. It's 00:26:41.390 --> 00:26:43.470 the emergency button. So those two buttons, I 00:26:43.470 --> 00:26:45.829 think, should always have been in place. But 00:26:45.829 --> 00:26:48.609 I hope you never have to press the one that says, 00:26:48.630 --> 00:26:52.690 like, lock everything. I didn't know they have 00:26:52.690 --> 00:26:55.990 installed the actual application in a test environment, 00:26:56.049 --> 00:26:58.309 because it looked exactly like their usual environment, 00:26:58.349 --> 00:26:59.750 right? Because I could see on the screen, because 00:26:59.750 --> 00:27:01.609 they were sharing their screen with me. They 00:27:01.609 --> 00:27:03.210 logged in in the same way that I was expecting 00:27:03.210 --> 00:27:06.670 from their live environment, everything. And 00:27:06.670 --> 00:27:08.700 they were putting in those... And I could see 00:27:08.700 --> 00:27:10.579 that the rule that was saying, like, block everything 00:27:10.579 --> 00:27:12.819 was going to be enabled, aka was actually

going 00:27:12.819 --> 00:27:16.319 to become enforceable. And for a moment, my heart, 00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:17.960 like, I was just, and I started just saying like, 00:27:18.019 --> 00:27:19.400 no, no, no, no, no, don't do it, don't do it. 00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:21.539 His mouth was hovering over the commit button, 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:23.220 which meant like the rule was actually going 00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:24.700 to be enforced. I'm like, please don't do that. 00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:26.700 Please don't do that. And like my face was going 00:27:26.700 --> 00:27:30.220 pale. And he clicked it. And I just, I could 00:27:30.220 --> 00:27:32.500 feel like all of the blood just like, just disappeared 00:27:32.500 --> 00:27:35.640 from my body. Like I was just, I was like, I 00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:37.509 just brought down the hospital. I just brought 00:27:37.509 --> 00:27:38.950 it, it was a, it was a, it was a healthcare customer, 00:27:38.970 --> 00:27:40.690 right? So I was just like, oh my God, like people 00:27:40.690 --> 00:27:45.109 are going to die, right? It was like, I was like, 00:27:45.190 --> 00:27:48.910 I couldn't find my voice anymore. I was so, so 00:27:48.910 --> 00:27:51.910 scared. And then they started laughing and they're 00:27:51.910 --> 00:27:53.349 like, oh, you should see the look on your face. 00:27:54.109 --> 00:27:56.130 Are you joking? And he was like, oh no, it's 00:27:56.130 --> 00:27:59.029 a test environment. And I'm like, oh, please 00:27:59.029 --> 00:28:00.589 don't do that. And like one of the guys, he said 00:28:00.589 --> 00:28:02.190 like, oh, I genuinely thought you knew this was 00:28:02.190 --> 00:28:03.990 this environment. Like, I'm like, no, you didn't 00:28:03.990 --> 00:28:08.099 tell me. I got so angry then. Because as my customers, 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.200 I was just like, I hate you all. Like, I don't 00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:12.200 want to talk to you anymore. I need to go like 00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:14.940 have a walk now. That's a good reason to avoid 00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:17.180 PLCs, you know, like not to have some good scares 00:28:17.180 --> 00:28:20.759 like that. It's always so complicated to touch 00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:22.619 a customer's environment, right? And when you 00:28:22.619 --> 00:28:26.960 do infrastructure, even if it's a test environment, 00:28:27.019 --> 00:28:28.799 you're going to have to put your hands in an 00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:31.519 environment that is not yours. You have no control 00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:35.400 in and anything can happen. Every product has 00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:40.150 a A settle down phase. And sometimes you don't 00:28:40.150 --> 00:28:43.509 have that time in the PLC and that could actually 00:28:43.509 --> 00:28:49.410 sink your deal. Because it's a very it's highly 00:28:49.410 --> 00:28:52.609 technical sale right the infrastructure sale 00:28:52.609 --> 00:28:55.890 is very very technical. A lot of the times the 00:28:55.890 --> 00:28:59.949 customer wants to play with it in there. environment 00:28:59.949 --> 00:29:02.349 and there's no way around it. You can offer them 00:29:02.349 --> 00:29:04.569 like, oh, you can use my demo environment here. 00:29:04.569 --> 00:29:06.309 It's going to be just like it was yours. No, 00:29:06.410 --> 00:29:08.509 I want to put it online. I want to test with 00:29:08.509 --> 00:29:11.150 my stuff. Yeah. To your point that there isn't 00:29:11.150 --> 00:29:13.569 a lot of material out there about like particular 00:29:13.569 --> 00:29:15.329 infrastructure pre -sales. And I think I've mentioned 00:29:15.329 --> 00:29:18.289 before as well on the podcast that I do try to 00:29:18.289 --> 00:29:22.329 have a POC avoidance. The way we did that at 00:29:22.329 --> 00:29:24.670 VMware was, and for folks listening as well, 00:29:25.349 --> 00:29:28.589 we had a couple of like sort of points of contact 00:29:28.589 --> 00:29:30.779 where it was always the assumption of like, if 00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:32.859 we do these things, there is a high chance that 00:29:32.859 --> 00:29:36.019 we can avoid a POC. One was obviously best practices 00:29:36.019 --> 00:29:38.319 when it comes to demoing. When you are demoing 00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:40.819 something, you know, always circle back around 00:29:40.819 --> 00:29:42.859 to what is the value, how you're solving specifically 00:29:42.859 --> 00:29:45.960 the problem they have, what is, you know, don't, 00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:48.240 it's sort of like leading the witness to a point 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:50.039 where don't think about the features and functions 00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:52.400 too much. Think about like what is the problem 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:54.980 and teach your technical customers as well to 00:29:54.980 --> 00:29:56.660 think in that sort of way, right? So when we're 00:29:56.660 --> 00:29:58.640 talking about buyer enablement. That was really 00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:01.519 my first sort of like big test of that theory 00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:03.859 of like, can I make these techies, who all of 00:30:03.859 --> 00:30:05.980 them are techies, think about like, what does 00:30:05.980 --> 00:30:08.380 your manager want? What is the, you know, while 00:30:08.380 --> 00:30:09.859 I was talking about healthcare, what does the 00:30:09.859 --> 00:30:12.519 director of this hospital care about? Right? 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:15.859 Think about that. Less so about what is the function 00:30:15.859 --> 00:30:17.160 of the feature and where do you press this button 00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:20.059 exactly to do it? Whilst I'm not, obviously, 00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:21.759 and in those two conversations, I always highlight 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:24.660 it, like, I'm not ignoring the people actually 00:30:24.660 --> 00:30:26.720 on the skull that will then be using the product. 00:30:27.150 --> 00:30:28.990 But these are two different conversations that 00:30:28.990 --> 00:30:30.869 we're having.

One is about what is the value 00:30:30.869 --> 00:30:32.630 of this product, which also you guys are part 00:30:32.630 --> 00:30:34.769 of this decision -making, but also then what 00:30:34.769 --> 00:30:36.970 does the day -to -day look like? And then, and 00:30:36.970 --> 00:30:40.549 to be honest with you, the value was easier to... 00:30:40.549 --> 00:30:42.289 Because again, then you can use all of the tips 00:30:42.289 --> 00:30:44.049 and tricks that we have within pre -sales to 00:30:44.049 --> 00:30:46.150 actually have those conversations constantly 00:30:46.150 --> 00:30:47.589 circling around, like, what is the problem? What 00:30:47.589 --> 00:30:48.750 is the problem that you're solving? What is the 00:30:48.750 --> 00:30:49.910 problem that you're solving? This is the value, 00:30:49.970 --> 00:30:52.670 not the feature. But I also had to convince these 00:30:52.670 --> 00:30:54.109 guys, right? I had to convince the technical 00:30:54.109 --> 00:30:55.809 guys that this is going to be easy for their 00:30:55.809 --> 00:30:58.029 day -to -day. And the way we were doing that 00:30:58.029 --> 00:31:00.750 is we had experience days. So we would bring 00:31:00.750 --> 00:31:03.750 in people from all around, because I was covering 00:31:03.750 --> 00:31:05.769 public sector. So I had customers showing up 00:31:05.769 --> 00:31:08.910 from universities, hospitals, local councils, 00:31:09.769 --> 00:31:12.970 bringing them all in together in a room, having 00:31:12.970 --> 00:31:15.470 these deeply technical conversations and enablement 00:31:15.470 --> 00:31:18.369 sessions. Plus they got hands -on experience 00:31:18.369 --> 00:31:20.430 with the product, right? So they can actually 00:31:20.430 --> 00:31:22.369 see the UI, they can click the buttons, they 00:31:22.369 --> 00:31:24.730 can go through the process of what does it look 00:31:24.730 --> 00:31:28.960 like. And then many, many conversations about 00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:30.920 how does this product exactly is going to fit 00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:34.259 within theirs. And it was less about, oh, I need 00:31:34.259 --> 00:31:36.259 to see it within my own environment. It was more 00:31:36.259 --> 00:31:40.359 about, I want you, Lydia, the person that now 00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:43.220 after so many conversations and in -person meetings 00:31:43.220 --> 00:31:46.579 and design sessions, I now trust that understands 00:31:46.579 --> 00:31:50.319 my environment to a degree that I can listen 00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:51.880 to you and say like, yeah, I understand what 00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:54.720 you mean. I trust your judgment on this point. 00:31:55.549 --> 00:31:58.450 For them to then to go, okay, with all of this 00:31:58.450 --> 00:32:00.890 experience combined, we're happy to take the 00:32:00.890 --> 00:32:03.130 leap. Because to your point as well, you know, 00:32:03.250 --> 00:32:05.670 it needs sort of infrastructure solutions. They 00:32:05.670 --> 00:32:08.049 need time to settle. They need time to grow as 00:32:08.049 --> 00:32:11.789 well within the environment. And you are as well 00:32:11.789 --> 00:32:14.809 within the security space. Start small, right? 00:32:15.009 --> 00:32:16.869 So start with like, what is the most critical 00:32:16.869 --> 00:32:18.390 point? What is the most critical data? What is 00:32:18.390 --> 00:32:19.710 the most critical part in an infrastructure? 00:32:20.089 --> 00:32:21.990 that needs to be secured or needs to be changed 00:32:21.990 --> 00:32:24.369 or optimized or whatever your product of choice 00:32:24.369 --> 00:32:27.390 is actually doing and focus on that small part 00:32:27.390 --> 00:32:29.630 and say like you don't have to buy it all you 00:32:29.630 --> 00:32:31.430 don't have to like buy everything all at once 00:32:31.430 --> 00:32:33.430 this also by the way applies for hardware as 00:32:33.430 --> 00:32:35.809 well a small hardware cell is much easier than 00:32:35.809 --> 00:32:39.369 a big hardware cell so if you want to try like 00:32:39.369 --> 00:32:43.029 if you're a palo alto a firewall fortnet if you're 00:32:43.029 --> 00:32:46.210 a security company that sells your physical firewalls 00:32:46.210 --> 00:32:49.269 start with one two three maybe And tell them 00:32:49.269 --> 00:32:50.829 like, put this in front of the things that are 00:32:50.829 --> 00:32:53.970 the most valuable. Let's start from there and 00:32:53.970 --> 00:32:57.490 then expand and continue going forward. And I 00:32:57.490 --> 00:33:01.470 think, so to summarize, now we're talking about 00:33:01.470 --> 00:33:04.529 divide the conversation between value and talking 00:33:04.529 --> 00:33:07.490 to the techies. When talking to the techies and 00:33:07.490 --> 00:33:10.109 within value, use all of the pre -sales tips 00:33:10.109 --> 00:33:12.089 and tricks that we talk about within the space. 00:33:12.410 --> 00:33:14.490 When we're talking to techies, then we're talking 00:33:14.490 --> 00:33:16.470 about experience days, giving them hands on access 00:33:16.470 --> 00:33:18.809 and access to other people that are on this journey 00:33:18.809 --> 00:33:21.789 as well. Become truly, and I know it's a used 00:33:21.789 --> 00:33:24.069 up phrase, but truly become their trusted advisor. 00:33:24.509 --> 00:33:27.190 Sit down with them, sit in the basements of sometimes 00:33:27.190 --> 00:33:30.569 offices with them, with a whiteboard and just 00:33:30.569 --> 00:33:33.269 let them talk you through what are their challenges. 00:33:34.509 --> 00:33:36.549 Give them as much information as you physically 00:33:36.549 --> 00:33:39.309 can, but always remind them that the best way 00:33:39.309 --> 00:33:41.529 really is for them to try the product on a smaller 00:33:41.529 --> 00:33:45.500 scale. Yep. And to me, that was revolutionary. 00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:48.799 That changed my entire priestess career. Using 00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:51.619 use cases, using other customers as

references, 00:33:52.099 --> 00:33:55.359 all of these are tools that you can use to actually 00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:59.099 prove your point or prove your solution. Well, 00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:03.400 I have this customer, they're in the same business 00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:06.019 as you are, and they have these challenges that 00:34:06.019 --> 00:34:08.769 are very similar to yours. They managed to achieve 00:34:08.769 --> 00:34:11.010 this, this and that using our solution. You want 00:34:11.010 --> 00:34:13.010 to talk to them. If you have that opening with 00:34:13.010 --> 00:34:16.329 another customer, you know, use those use cases 00:34:16.329 --> 00:34:18.570 because they're, they're really, really powerful. 00:34:18.889 --> 00:34:21.289 And that, that can save you the, the possibility 00:34:21.289 --> 00:34:23.769 of running a POC. The thing for me, and what 00:34:23.769 --> 00:34:26.670 sometimes really annoys me is that talking about 00:34:26.670 --> 00:34:29.550 data protection, if a customer wants to just 00:34:29.550 --> 00:34:33.079 test, backup and restore, We can do it in a demo. 00:34:33.179 --> 00:34:35.440 We can do it in a lab environment. I can give 00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:37.820 you my console. You can back up and restore. 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:41.960 A good POC for me, like talking about data protection, 00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:45.539 or now we call it cyber resiliency, which is 00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:49.119 very, very close to security, is I had a project 00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:53.159 recently that a customer wanted to test a specific 00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:56.860 functionality from a security standpoint. So 00:34:56.860 --> 00:35:00.099 they set up an environment. They invited an external 00:35:00.099 --> 00:35:03.230 consultant. and they took their preferred cyber 00:35:03.230 --> 00:35:05.690 resilience companies to come in, put their product 00:35:05.690 --> 00:35:09.449 there, and go through a batch of tests. That's 00:35:09.449 --> 00:35:13.489 a POC that has clear goals, metrics, and you 00:35:13.489 --> 00:35:17.070 get like start... That POC was done in two to 00:35:17.070 --> 00:35:19.710 three weeks, which in infrastructure is great 00:35:19.710 --> 00:35:22.110 because we know that POCs in infrastructure can 00:35:22.110 --> 00:35:25.210 go on for months and months. That's the kind 00:35:25.210 --> 00:35:27.929 of POC I like because then I can actually defend 00:35:27.929 --> 00:35:30.500 my product and say, hey, And this is important 00:35:30.500 --> 00:35:32.760 for you. We managed to prove that we can give 00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:35.559 you this value and we proved it technically with 00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:38.239 an external consultant. That's great. Everybody's 00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:42.719 happy. Give me the deal. But it's a way to get 00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:46.320 your technical win in a meaningful way. I like 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:49.380 making POCs meaningful, right? Sometimes they 00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:52.199 are necessary and they're valid. Most of the 00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:56.579 times you can avoid them. Or you can actually 00:35:56.579 --> 00:35:59.389 do what the techie wants without having to go 00:35:59.389 --> 00:36:03.170 through the whole PLC hassle. Yeah, I completely 00:36:03.170 --> 00:36:06.010 agree. And also to another point, I think for 00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:08.849 us within infrastructure, and I mentioned it 00:36:08.849 --> 00:36:14.230 a little bit earlier, that trust is so key. And 00:36:14.230 --> 00:36:15.949 maybe that's also where a little bit of that 00:36:15.949 --> 00:36:18.010 techie ego comes in as well, and why it's so 00:36:18.010 --> 00:36:20.630 hard for us to shake it off. Because it feels 00:36:20.630 --> 00:36:22.570 like, oh, I need to prove myself to this person 00:36:22.570 --> 00:36:25.710 that I know enough for them to trust me. But 00:36:25.710 --> 00:36:29.030 genuinely, in my own experience, it is most of 00:36:29.030 --> 00:36:31.489 the time just genuinely listening to them because 00:36:31.489 --> 00:36:34.449 they're not used to it. Unfortunately, that was 00:36:34.449 --> 00:36:36.050 some of the feedback that I got from my own customers, 00:36:36.250 --> 00:36:40.170 which is, it's so rare to have a vendor come 00:36:40.170 --> 00:36:43.610 in and be very honest as well about the shortcomings 00:36:43.610 --> 00:36:45.610 of a product. Not in the sense of coming into 00:36:45.610 --> 00:36:47.369 a call and going like, oh yeah, my product sucks 00:36:47.369 --> 00:36:50.250 in these 20 different points, but it's about 00:36:50.250 --> 00:36:53.360 being very blunt. and honest about things of 00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:55.239 like, hey, you guys want to do this? Like in 00:36:55.239 --> 00:36:56.800 my case, it was always about connecting it with 00:36:56.800 --> 00:36:59.199 the hardware world, right? So my security solution 00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:02.320 was software only. It was within the VMware ecosystem. 00:37:02.940 --> 00:37:05.139 It's like, guys, you are running VMware. This 00:37:05.139 --> 00:37:07.639 is where this product is best. Does it have this 00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:09.280 function? Because they would read the data sheet, 00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:10.559 for example, and they would go like, oh, but 00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:12.980 it does like, you know, it can run on a physical 00:37:12.980 --> 00:37:16.280 server and can do physical security. Guys, there 00:37:16.280 --> 00:37:19.119 is a better solution out there for physical security. 00:37:19.309 --> 00:37:21.090 I can point to them, I can say like, yep, that 00:37:21.090 --> 00:37:22.329 product and that product and that product are 00:37:22.329 --> 00:37:24.869 better than my product in this space. So please 00:37:24.869 --> 00:37:27.130 go ahead and have a chat with them on that side. 00:37:27.309 --> 00:37:30.849 For me, what I'm talking about and what this 00:37:30.849 --> 00:37:33.130 product is the best at is within

this space. 00:37:33.730 --> 00:37:35.989 And I would encourage you not to mix and match 00:37:35.989 --> 00:37:38.610 and not try to do everything together. Me saying 00:37:38.610 --> 00:37:42.139 those words to customers was like magic. because 00:37:42.139 --> 00:37:45.079 suddenly they realized I wasn't just there for 00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:46.559 the sake of like, oh, I want you to sell you 00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:47.960 everything. Because obviously, like, if I sold 00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:49.420 them all that license, I would admit that, you 00:37:49.420 --> 00:37:51.500 know, my account manager and I would make a lot 00:37:51.500 --> 00:37:53.500 more money. But that wasn't the point. The point 00:37:53.500 --> 00:37:56.960 was the product to work. That was my goal. And 00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:01.019 again, that's how actionably you can become a 00:38:01.019 --> 00:38:02.559 trusted advisor and not just a buzzword that 00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:04.940 we use within pre -sales. We're talking about 00:38:04.940 --> 00:38:07.860 different people within pre -sales. And I like 00:38:07.860 --> 00:38:10.780 that idea because there is... I think, and people 00:38:10.780 --> 00:38:12.380 can judge me for this, I do think there is a 00:38:12.380 --> 00:38:14.059 specific stereotype within infrastructure, especially 00:38:14.059 --> 00:38:15.980 within infrastructure pre -sales. To Amanda's 00:38:15.980 --> 00:38:17.900 point, people who are coming in and they know 00:38:17.900 --> 00:38:21.079 it all and they are amazing technically, maybe 00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:24.820 more lacking on the social side, not having focused 00:38:24.820 --> 00:38:26.460 on the social side, because I genuinely believe 00:38:26.460 --> 00:38:29.320 most people can learn these skills. You're not 00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:33.739 born with it, but there's definitely a stereotype 00:38:33.739 --> 00:38:36.480 of that. And I think that's also quite heavily 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:41.119 I wouldn't say enforced, but also it's definitely 00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:43.780 not helped by the fact that there is genuinely, 00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:47.880 if we say that pre -sales is generally not particularly 00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:51.099 diverse, I think infrastructure pre -sales. Oh 00:38:51.099 --> 00:38:53.980 my God. Yeah. It's even less. I don't know the 00:38:53.980 --> 00:38:56.239 numbers. I don't want to know the numbers. It's 00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:59.190 just going to be different. It's not great for 00:38:59.190 --> 00:39:01.610 the longest of time, even within VMware, which 00:39:01.610 --> 00:39:04.090 is a... VMware was an incredibly diverse company. 00:39:04.230 --> 00:39:07.409 I was the only woman and one of two foreigners. 00:39:09.650 --> 00:39:12.710 You're one of the three other ladies that are 00:39:12.710 --> 00:39:17.269 part of the pre -sales team worldwide. Yeah, 00:39:17.510 --> 00:39:22.489 yeah. Right. No, it's an interesting place to 00:39:22.489 --> 00:39:25.570 be. But I think there's... there's always a conversation 00:39:25.570 --> 00:39:27.289 around diversity, right? Because it is an important 00:39:27.289 --> 00:39:30.369 topic. But I think, and obviously we've spoken 00:39:30.369 --> 00:39:33.929 offline from, you know, offline, online, but 00:39:33.929 --> 00:39:35.949 all the podcasts, we're talking about, like, 00:39:35.989 --> 00:39:38.289 you know, how do we approach diversity within 00:39:38.289 --> 00:39:40.250 pre -sales and even more so within infrastructure 00:39:40.250 --> 00:39:44.409 pre -sales? And I think there's a momentum that 00:39:44.409 --> 00:39:48.769 I'm not particularly agreeable with. of just 00:39:48.769 --> 00:39:50.989 saying, just shouting at the clouds and saying 00:39:50.989 --> 00:39:53.230 like, oh, we need more women in this space. It's 00:39:53.230 --> 00:39:55.809 like, okay, do something about it, right? Don't 00:39:55.809 --> 00:39:58.849 just say we need them. Yeah, like, what are we 00:39:58.849 --> 00:40:02.889 actually doing to, to bring not just not just 00:40:02.889 --> 00:40:06.190 women, but like recognizing other minorized groups 00:40:06.190 --> 00:40:08.929 within pre cells. I know I've worked with people 00:40:08.929 --> 00:40:12.559 that are part of the LGBT. collective that are 00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:14.699 in pre -sales and they're in their work day, 00:40:14.860 --> 00:40:17.260 they're in the closet because they're scared 00:40:17.260 --> 00:40:19.920 to come out. They're actually scared to be their 00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:22.519 authentic selves because they're going to hear 00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:25.840 jokes or people are not going to trust them or 00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:27.980 they're not going to treat them the same or they're 00:40:27.980 --> 00:40:29.579 going to think that they're not good enough. 00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:34.079 One thing that we always talked about Lydia, 00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:39.820 we as women, we've done that a lot within our 00:40:39.820 --> 00:40:43.309 careers, which is like to do much more than we're 00:40:43.309 --> 00:40:46.530 asked to do just to show that we actually can. 00:40:47.309 --> 00:40:51.849 And this is unconscious bias, right? Because 00:40:51.849 --> 00:40:56.269 people and even women ourselves, we think less 00:40:56.269 --> 00:40:59.710 of other women or we think less of people from 00:40:59.710 --> 00:41:03.130 other minorized groups or from a specific ethnicity 00:41:03.130 --> 00:41:09.090 or that have a specific accent. And that requires 00:41:09.090 --> 00:41:12.760 some internal review and the construction of 00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:16.980 this biases because that effectively not allows 00:41:16.980 --> 00:41:20.179 people to be who they actually are in the place 00:41:20.179 --> 00:41:22.780 where they spent most of the hours in their day. 00:41:23.539 --> 00:41:25.659 Exactly. It made me really sad now to hear you 00:41:25.659 --> 00:41:27.800 say this fact, especially folks within the

LGBTQ 00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:30.139 plus community, that they're not able to be their 00:41:30.139 --> 00:41:32.440 authentic selves. And yet in the same breath, 00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.300 we talk about, oh, but for to be a trusted advisor, 00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:38.179 you need to be authentically yourself. So suddenly 00:41:38.179 --> 00:41:41.900 you're cutting out a staggeringly large group 00:41:41.900 --> 00:41:44.760 of people. Because to your point, they're not 00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:47.340 being able to bring their authentic selves. Even 00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:49.579 on that point, and we can hear this all the time, 00:41:49.820 --> 00:41:51.380 you should bring your authentic self to work. 00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:53.840 Let's be very honest and clear, like you're never 00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:55.659 going to be the same person you are at work that 00:41:55.659 --> 00:41:58.460 you were at home, but you should be given the 00:41:58.460 --> 00:42:01.940 ability to be the parts of yourself that you 00:42:01.940 --> 00:42:04.280 want to present at work without feeling the need, 00:42:04.380 --> 00:42:07.019 not worrying about being judged. And I don't 00:42:07.019 --> 00:42:09.320 mind sharing my story about this. So my biggest 00:42:09.320 --> 00:42:11.539 challenge was coming into VMware, which again, 00:42:11.940 --> 00:42:14.130 incredibly welcoming environment. Yet at the 00:42:14.130 --> 00:42:16.489 same time, because I didn't have anyone else 00:42:16.489 --> 00:42:18.610 to compare to, I was comparing myself to my colleagues. 00:42:19.030 --> 00:42:21.190 And they were all incredibly professional, incredibly. 00:42:21.469 --> 00:42:22.769 I wouldn't call them serious because obviously 00:42:22.769 --> 00:42:24.269 they had the sense of humor and they were able 00:42:24.269 --> 00:42:26.150 to like create a fantastic relationship with 00:42:26.150 --> 00:42:28.969 their customers. But it was a specific stereotype, 00:42:29.230 --> 00:42:31.610 right? It was, it was that level person coming 00:42:31.610 --> 00:42:34.010 into authority, a specific type of jokes that 00:42:34.010 --> 00:42:36.349 was not native to me. Cause I'm coming into the 00:42:36.349 --> 00:42:39.199 UK. I'm not, I'm not from the UK. And I tried 00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:41.840 so desperately to emulate that and to imitate 00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:44.579 that. I genuinely like, and this sounds so sad, 00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:48.039 I had a list Amanda of all the jokes that my 00:42:48.039 --> 00:42:50.239 British colleagues would use that I'm like, okay, 00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:51.880 I need to do this too, right? Because I need 00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:54.320 to fit in. I need to like pretend that I'm from 00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:56.159 the UK because otherwise people would let me 00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:59.000 out and that I'm a fake. You know what? And sometimes 00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:01.760 in doing that, you're actually hurting people 00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:05.619 that are just like you, like immigrants or women 00:43:05.619 --> 00:43:08.639 or... It took me so long to... to turn around 00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:11.539 and go and say like, no, I will be my bubbly 00:43:11.539 --> 00:43:14.639 self. I will say it out loud that I'm not a native 00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:17.119 English speaker, you know, so that people should 00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:18.880 expect that if I say something funny, it's like, 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:20.860 no, genuinely, this is just the level of English 00:43:20.860 --> 00:43:22.780 I have. Like, this is just what I think is supposed 00:43:22.780 --> 00:43:24.559 to be said here. I'm not just, you know, being 00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:27.500 weird or I don't know what I'm saying. It's just 00:43:27.500 --> 00:43:29.440 I'm translating from another language, potentially. 00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:33.610 And all of these things, and it was... And I 00:43:33.610 --> 00:43:35.829 know my colleagues meant well, but sometimes 00:43:35.829 --> 00:43:38.230 I would get the comment of like, oh, your English 00:43:38.230 --> 00:43:40.389 is better than ours. Native English speakers 00:43:40.389 --> 00:43:43.210 would say that to me. And I'm like, first of 00:43:43.210 --> 00:43:47.989 all, that's not true. But secondly, then I feel 00:43:47.989 --> 00:43:51.269 like I have no excuse for not being perfect. 00:43:51.590 --> 00:43:54.309 And to your point then, again, my own level of 00:43:54.309 --> 00:43:56.809 self -expectation becomes even higher. It's like, 00:43:56.889 --> 00:43:58.710 okay, so I need to keep on being better. I need 00:43:58.710 --> 00:44:01.320 to be perfect at this because otherwise... Now 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:04.699 I'm also betraying this idea. I'm betraying this 00:44:04.699 --> 00:44:09.179 idea. Yeah. And it's really hard to sort of straddle 00:44:09.179 --> 00:44:12.179 that until you sort of just acknowledge and be 00:44:12.179 --> 00:44:13.860 okay with the fact, but that takes so much time 00:44:13.860 --> 00:44:15.920 and especially young people coming into this 00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:18.280 career, you know, I think they, you know, I know 00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:20.019 I struggled and I know other people struggle 00:44:20.019 --> 00:44:22.239 as well. It's like, but how can I be myself at 00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:23.800 work when they expect me to be this and this 00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:26.199 and this? It's like, well, there is a level of 00:44:26.199 --> 00:44:28.480 expectation. There is a level of professionalism 00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:31.750 that you need to have. But do you not need to 00:44:31.750 --> 00:44:35.130 be bubbly? I disagree. Would everyone like you? 00:44:36.110 --> 00:44:42.110 Most definitely not. Is that bad? No? Not really. 00:44:43.230 --> 00:44:46.769 I think that things that need to change, I had 00:44:46.769 --> 00:44:49.809 a similar experience to you. I've never lived 00:44:49.809 --> 00:44:53.230 in the UK, but I worked remotely for the UK

for 00:44:53.230 --> 00:44:55.690 like three and a half years. And there were some 00:44:55.690 --> 00:44:58.190 people in the leadership team when I was being 00:44:58.190 --> 00:45:00.840 considered to... work for, for this team that 00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:03.719 were like, well, Amanda is good, but she's, you 00:45:03.719 --> 00:45:06.260 know, she has a weird accent. She's not from 00:45:06.260 --> 00:45:08.380 here. The customers are not going to accept her. 00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:10.639 People in your leadership team were actually 00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:14.260 putting these obstacles in front of me. Like 00:45:14.260 --> 00:45:17.019 as a reason for me to be part of the team. And 00:45:17.019 --> 00:45:20.000 at that time, my manager, he like really insisted 00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:22.599 and said, no, she can do it. She, you know, she 00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:24.800 just, I speak English things. I was six years 00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:27.599 old, you know, it is I'm not like a native speaker, 00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:30.079 but I. i've been speaking english since i was 00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:33.059 a child like it's ingrained in my brain i just 00:45:33.059 --> 00:45:35.039 started working doing what i do and they started 00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:37.739 bringing projects in and i got along very well 00:45:37.739 --> 00:45:41.440 with my aes and i was bringing in really really 00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:44.860 great results i'm not an exception there are 00:45:44.860 --> 00:45:46.900 other people out there they have a weird accent 00:45:46.900 --> 00:45:49.139 that can deliver the same kind of quality as 00:45:49.139 --> 00:45:52.099 as i could at the time but the fact that you 00:45:52.099 --> 00:45:57.449 have to fight to be part of that team maybe for 00:45:57.449 --> 00:45:59.650 someone else that could be discouraging. Maybe 00:45:59.650 --> 00:46:02.030 that person would say, yeah, I can't work with 00:46:02.030 --> 00:46:04.150 the UK because they're not going to accept me. 00:46:04.309 --> 00:46:08.230 When for me, like my experience, especially with 00:46:08.230 --> 00:46:10.949 the customers was completely the other way around. 00:46:11.630 --> 00:46:13.210 Yeah, because you were interesting because you 00:46:13.210 --> 00:46:16.789 were different in a good way. That was my experience 00:46:16.789 --> 00:46:19.929 as well. It's like once I allowed myself to be 00:46:19.929 --> 00:46:22.869 one, you know, again, I also like my accent is 00:46:22.869 --> 00:46:25.610 strange and unique. And then also you have, you 00:46:25.610 --> 00:46:27.880 know, the fact that I do have a different personality 00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:30.099 than most of my colleagues would. I allowed myself 00:46:30.099 --> 00:46:32.559 to have a personality and that's how people remember 00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:35.599 you. And in pre -sales, that is so important 00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:39.260 because if you have 20 carbon copies of different, 00:46:39.260 --> 00:46:41.400 you

know, people representing 20 different vendors, 00:46:41.860 --> 00:46:44.440 but then you have an Amanda coming in with her 00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:46.860 different accent, with her different cadence, 00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:48.500 with a different background, with a different 00:46:48.500 --> 00:46:52.250 perspective, that is much more memorable. Then 00:46:52.250 --> 00:46:54.110 and apologies for anyone called this way, but 00:46:54.110 --> 00:46:55.949 you know from the Tim's and from the Steve's 00:46:55.949 --> 00:46:58.730 and from the John's. You know that are in that 00:46:58.730 --> 00:47:01.550 case and you know and I do mean this also in. 00:47:01.590 --> 00:47:04.730 I highlight this for honor for a reason is because 00:47:04.730 --> 00:47:07.690 also for for Tim's and John's and Steve's you 00:47:07.690 --> 00:47:10.730 also have a capability a characteristic that 00:47:10.730 --> 00:47:12.949 is different from the other John on the call 00:47:12.949 --> 00:47:16.789 showcase that allow yourself to be unique and 00:47:16.789 --> 00:47:19.539 different in a way that is memorable. Because 00:47:19.539 --> 00:47:21.380 there's nothing better in this role, especially 00:47:21.380 --> 00:47:24.699 when it's a people -facing role, than to be memorable. 00:47:25.239 --> 00:47:26.900 Because they will remember you, and they will 00:47:26.900 --> 00:47:28.599 remember the product. They might not remember 00:47:28.599 --> 00:47:30.599 how the product is called, but they will remember, 00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:32.960 oh yeah, John, with that really interesting take 00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:35.880 that he had on whatever, or the personality that 00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:38.679 shined through. Amazing! Have a funny background! 00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.079 Whatever it is, whatever it is that is true to 00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:44.300 you, should be allowed and should be encouraged, 00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:47.219 versus just saying, Oh, we need to fill a quota. 00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:50.480 And that is my biggest challenge because you're 00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:53.880 trying to, at the moment, a lot of the solutions 00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:56.360 we're seeing around, oh, we need more diverse 00:47:56.360 --> 00:47:58.480 people within this space. Okay, great. So what 00:47:58.480 --> 00:48:00.860 do we do? We put a quota. We put a metric. We 00:48:00.860 --> 00:48:03.079 say like, oh, we need 50 -50. Okay, so let's 00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:05.780 bring some people in. And then these people are 00:48:05.780 --> 00:48:07.699 coming in with different expectations or different 00:48:07.699 --> 00:48:09.880 approaches to this, which does not fit the mold. 00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:12.119 It's like, okay, so we brought them in, yet nothing 00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:14.360 changed. It's like, yeah, because the different 00:48:14.360 --> 00:48:16.380 people you brought in, you shove them through 00:48:16.380 --> 00:48:18.320 the same mold that you shove everyone else through, 00:48:18.780 --> 00:48:22.960 and surprise, surprise, no change happens. Who 00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:26.519 would have expected? Exactly. That's so important, 00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:29.289 Lydia. I don't want to be segregated. I want 00:48:29.289 --> 00:48:31.690 to be part of the team the way that i am you 00:48:31.690 --> 00:48:34.110 know like being a girl being south american having 00:48:34.110 --> 00:48:36.989 a weird accent you know like i do have a weird 00:48:36.989 --> 00:48:39.389 accent in spanish as well and it works fine for 00:48:39.389 --> 00:48:41.190 me i've been in spain for six years you know 00:48:41.190 --> 00:48:43.269 and customers understand me i understand them 00:48:43.269 --> 00:48:46.590 and i'm selling that but i don't want to feel 00:48:46.590 --> 00:48:49.969 like i'm special in my team or that i need special 00:48:49.969 --> 00:48:52.110 attention i think that the whole point of this 00:48:52.110 --> 00:48:55.550 is getting people aware that it's okay to be 00:48:55.550 --> 00:48:58.789 different first and. We need to start breaking 00:48:58.789 --> 00:49:01.889 those biases. We need to start seeing people 00:49:01.889 --> 00:49:05.429 for what they are, which is their people. Devil 00:49:05.429 --> 00:49:11.389 is always in the details. My husband is a stay 00:49:11.389 --> 00:49:13.769 -at -home dad, and I've heard from a previous 00:49:13.769 --> 00:49:17.010 manager, like, so what does your husband do at 00:49:17.010 --> 00:49:22.010 home all day? And I was like... What does he 00:49:22.010 --> 00:49:24.110 do? Are you seriously asking me this? You know, 00:49:24.150 --> 00:49:26.849 like, he does a lot. He does the laundry, he 00:49:26.849 --> 00:49:29.150 cooks, he takes care of my daughter. What do 00:49:29.150 --> 00:49:30.690 you want to know? Like, why are you asking me 00:49:30.690 --> 00:49:34.389 this? Like, if I was a man, that wouldn't be 00:49:34.389 --> 00:49:37.969 a question. No. You know? No, it wouldn't be. 00:49:39.170 --> 00:49:42.090 To a certain degree, and I know that you did 00:49:42.090 --> 00:49:44.329 respond in this way, and it's a fantastic way 00:49:44.329 --> 00:49:46.070 to respond because that's exactly what we should 00:49:46.070 --> 00:49:48.309 be doing. We should be challenging these biases 00:49:48.309 --> 00:49:52.289 in a constructive, friendly way, obviously, not 00:49:52.289 --> 00:49:54.110 just, you know, taking our bras off and starting 00:49:54.110 --> 00:49:55.550 to shout at the people that, you know, you should 00:49:55.550 --> 00:49:59.869 be... It was what I wanted to do, like, and hanging 00:49:59.869 --> 00:50:04.090 with it, you know? Yeah, no, so many times. And 00:50:04.090 --> 00:50:06.889 that wouldn't be very good for my career? Potentially 00:50:06.889 --> 00:50:08.469 not. It would definitely make an interesting 00:50:08.469 --> 00:50:10.329 story, but maybe not the best for your career. 00:50:10.570 --> 00:50:14.949 Try a rope. A rope would

be more agnostic. But 00:50:14.949 --> 00:50:17.900 it is genuinely, and I think... Cause I know 00:50:17.900 --> 00:50:19.840 I've spoken on another podcast as well on the 00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:22.559 topic and there's so much fear. I remember talking 00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:24.960 to, to, to Mark Green, Adam Freeman about this 00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:28.739 and just the amount of tension that the guys 00:50:28.739 --> 00:50:31.420 had talking to me about this. And I'm just sitting 00:50:31.420 --> 00:50:33.480 there going like, is this supposed to be a bad 00:50:33.480 --> 00:50:36.500 topic that we are talking about? Right? Why is 00:50:36.500 --> 00:50:38.639 this such a, such a taboo topic to talk about? 00:50:39.139 --> 00:50:41.400 I am a woman. That's not going to change. Right? 00:50:41.460 --> 00:50:43.019 Like I'm not planning on changing that nor do 00:50:43.019 --> 00:50:45.929 I feel the need to change that. So why does this 00:50:45.929 --> 00:50:48.010 fact concern you so much? It should be a topic. 00:50:48.050 --> 00:50:49.610 We should talk about it, right? Again, to the 00:50:49.610 --> 00:50:52.449 point about breaking biases. But why are we so 00:50:52.449 --> 00:50:54.670 afraid of acknowledging the fact that one, we 00:50:54.670 --> 00:50:57.329 are different. Yes, that's a good thing. We should 00:50:57.329 --> 00:50:59.489 encourage differences versus just saying like, 00:50:59.530 --> 00:51:01.170 oh, we're looking for the exact same candidate, 00:51:01.170 --> 00:51:05.789 you know, 20 times over. And also that fundamental 00:51:05.789 --> 00:51:07.710 fear of like, oh, but what if I say the wrong 00:51:07.710 --> 00:51:11.239 thing? What if I misspeak? What if I use guys 00:51:11.239 --> 00:51:13.460 instead of, you know, hello everybody? You know, 00:51:13.460 --> 00:51:16.019 I say hello guys. Is that always going to be 00:51:16.019 --> 00:51:17.820 offensive to someone? Potentially it can be, 00:51:17.820 --> 00:51:20.099 but if people want to be offended, they will 00:51:20.099 --> 00:51:23.039 find offense in every word you say. It's always 00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:25.960 about what are you as a person intending to do 00:51:25.960 --> 00:51:28.139 with that? Your intentions are more important 00:51:28.139 --> 00:51:30.280 than the actual results in that case. And if 00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:32.099 your intention was to hurt someone, you can say 00:51:32.099 --> 00:51:34.000 the most mundane things and who would hurt them? 00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:36.260 To the point, you know, if you wanted to be heard 00:51:36.260 --> 00:51:38.199 by that comment and that question, you could 00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:40.219 have absolutely been hurt and you know, instead 00:51:40.219 --> 00:51:43.539 of you decided to educate in a non violent way, 00:51:43.539 --> 00:51:46.920 which is tense, you know, if they're nervous 00:51:46.920 --> 00:51:49.659 about, you know, having diversity in their teams, 00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:52.820 they should go study about it. If you feel tense, 00:51:53.420 --> 00:51:56.159 try to put yourself in other people's shoes. 00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:58.920 Try to understand. It's okay. Like the world 00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:01.260 is changing. It's okay to change and things change. 00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:04.469 I've changed. Like you said, I used to reproduce 00:52:04.469 --> 00:52:07.230 a lot of these behaviors throughout my life, 00:52:07.989 --> 00:52:11.489 like belittling women or having unconscious bias 00:52:11.489 --> 00:52:16.570 about certain groups of people. It's okay. We 00:52:16.570 --> 00:52:19.630 are deconstructing this concept. If you feel 00:52:19.630 --> 00:52:22.690 uncomfortable or nervous, call me for a coffee. 00:52:23.190 --> 00:52:27.170 I'll be happy to have a friendly conversation 00:52:27.170 --> 00:52:29.530 about it, but it's important that you acknowledge 00:52:29.530 --> 00:52:32.679 it. That's the first step. But if we keep ignoring 00:52:32.679 --> 00:52:35.699 it, it's something like it's when you see that 00:52:35.699 --> 00:52:39.579 typical leadership team picture when all of the 00:52:39.579 --> 00:52:42.820 people in the picture are middle -aged white 00:52:42.820 --> 00:52:45.699 men. When you have that picture, that's when 00:52:45.699 --> 00:52:47.760 you, that's the definition of a glass ceiling. 00:52:48.039 --> 00:52:51.019 There is a point that we can go up as women, 00:52:51.340 --> 00:52:54.079 as people of color, as being able to recognize 00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:59.070 that it's already a huge step because In a few 00:52:59.070 --> 00:53:01.230 years not many years in a few years that would 00:53:01.230 --> 00:53:04.110 have just been. Normal that's the that's the 00:53:04.110 --> 00:53:06.610 norm that's okay you know that's how things are 00:53:06.610 --> 00:53:09.650 and today we can look at it and say hey. There's 00:53:09.650 --> 00:53:11.869 something wrong with this picture and that brings 00:53:11.869 --> 00:53:16.969 us to a reflection what can i amanda or you lead 00:53:16.969 --> 00:53:22.030 or you john. Do differently to make people feel 00:53:22.030 --> 00:53:25.050 included like i said i don't feel segregated 00:53:25.050 --> 00:53:27.420 i don't wanna be put in the spot like. Oh, this 00:53:27.420 --> 00:53:30.239 is the girl in our team. No, I just want to be 00:53:30.239 --> 00:53:33.820 part of the team. Exactly. Exactly. And it's 00:53:33.820 --> 00:53:37.079 again, to my earliest point, it's not about like, 00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:39.519 oh, we need to get like a person of color in 00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:40.960 a leadership. We need to get like a woman in 00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:43.179 leadership. Otherwise we look bad. Which is again, 00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:46.280 the automatic response. It's going to be a gradual 00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:48.780 process, but it's about acknowledging it internally 00:53:48.780 --> 00:53:50.920 maybe. You don't have to say it externally. You

00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:53.059 don't have to like state, oh, we're changing 00:53:53.059 --> 00:53:56.440 this for the sake of diversity. Actions speak 00:53:56.440 --> 00:53:58.639 louder than words. You don't need to say anything. 00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:01.760 Just slowly but surely as an organization, started 00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:04.039 looking at those biases, which by the way, I 00:54:04.039 --> 00:54:05.340 do want to acknowledge this because it's really 00:54:05.340 --> 00:54:08.860 important. It is completely normal to have these 00:54:08.860 --> 00:54:12.360 biases. It is natural. We're tribalist by nature. 00:54:13.219 --> 00:54:15.619 We tend to be around the people that look like 00:54:15.619 --> 00:54:18.400 us, that sound like us, that act like us. This 00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:20.960 is the natural tendency we have as people. Studies, 00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:23.679 you know, multiple studies have shown that a 00:54:23.679 --> 00:54:26.820 diverse team of people, especially in a social 00:54:26.820 --> 00:54:29.800 environment, such as pre -sales, is incredibly 00:54:29.800 --> 00:54:33.079 beneficial for, at the end of the day, what most 00:54:33.079 --> 00:54:35.260 businesses care for, which is making more money. 00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:38.360 You make more money by bringing in a diverse 00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:41.980 set of people in the right way. Very important 00:54:41.980 --> 00:54:44.079 caveat, which is not about just like if we put 00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:45.559 a metric on it, we're going to get more people 00:54:45.559 --> 00:54:47.559 in, we're going to make more money. Not as easy 00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:49.440 as that. I wish there was, you know, no magic 00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:52.519 bond here. It is about having a cultural change 00:54:52.519 --> 00:54:55.300 and a cultural shift of having that this is just 00:54:55.300 --> 00:54:58.039 now the norm that we have here in this team. 00:54:58.539 --> 00:55:00.440 And that is a huge challenge that we're seeing. 00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:03.099 And same point as you, Amanda. I don't like the 00:55:03.099 --> 00:55:05.000 fact that the tendency then is like, we need 00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:07.239 to create a space for these people. Like that's 00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:09.219 a given. They will create the space by themselves. 00:55:09.679 --> 00:55:11.619 All of your female colleagues most likely have 00:55:11.619 --> 00:55:13.460 a chat that they're just talking between themselves 00:55:13.460 --> 00:55:15.599 and you have no idea about. Most of your people, 00:55:15.900 --> 00:55:18.019 your people of color within your team, they also 00:55:18.019 --> 00:55:19.699 have a chat. Most people from the same country. 00:55:20.230 --> 00:55:21.949 Guarantee they will have a chat that is not, 00:55:21.949 --> 00:55:24.269 you know, part of the, they will do that themselves. 00:55:24.469 --> 00:55:28.730 You don't need to say we have a female pre -sales 00:55:28.730 --> 00:55:30.570 group,

you know, over here in the side having 00:55:30.570 --> 00:55:32.489 conversations about female pre -sales things. 00:55:32.829 --> 00:55:34.630 It's like, no, we need to be part of the broader 00:55:34.630 --> 00:55:37.449 conversation. If there is to get those benefits. 00:55:38.110 --> 00:55:40.929 It has been done to us for so many years, you 00:55:40.929 --> 00:55:42.929 know, let the girl, the girls have their girl 00:55:42.929 --> 00:55:45.750 talk. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Especially in tech, 00:55:45.849 --> 00:55:48.389 right? This is a very common thing in tech. And 00:55:48.389 --> 00:55:50.190 one last thing I wanted to have a conversation 00:55:50.190 --> 00:55:52.190 with you about, which was like, it's such a staggering 00:55:52.190 --> 00:55:53.969 thing. Because you mentioned something like, 00:55:54.050 --> 00:55:55.449 you know, we're not unique, right? We're not 00:55:55.449 --> 00:55:57.409 the exception to the role of like, you know, 00:55:57.710 --> 00:55:59.730 you have like techie women in pre -sales or you 00:55:59.730 --> 00:56:01.130 have like techie women overall, like, you know, 00:56:01.130 --> 00:56:03.150 oh, you're such an exception. There are a couple 00:56:03.150 --> 00:56:05.469 of points there that are quite challenging because 00:56:05.469 --> 00:56:07.849 even such a positive comment that I've heard 00:56:07.849 --> 00:56:10.510 from people is like, whenever I talk about my 00:56:10.510 --> 00:56:12.210 challenges or my concerns about like my networking 00:56:12.210 --> 00:56:14.170 career, so this was even back then. And they 00:56:14.170 --> 00:56:15.849 would say like, oh, but some of the most, like 00:56:15.849 --> 00:56:17.289 the best networking people I know are women. 00:56:17.480 --> 00:56:20.340 It's like, okay, you are now, again, reiterating 00:56:20.340 --> 00:56:22.139 this concern I have that I need to be the best 00:56:22.139 --> 00:56:24.840 to be a woman in network engineering. You're 00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:27.760 not, I know, I understand your intention. They 00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:30.719 are good intentions, but that should be a deeper, 00:56:30.820 --> 00:56:33.719 and again, at the time, I was 20, 21, 22, like 00:56:33.719 --> 00:56:36.019 I didn't know for myself that that was not what 00:56:36.019 --> 00:56:38.460 I needed. You know, I needed to have that conversation 00:56:38.460 --> 00:56:41.409 about like, like, buddy, I hear you. But this 00:56:41.409 --> 00:56:43.809 is my actual concern is like, this is exactly 00:56:43.809 --> 00:56:45.489 what you just said is my concern that I'm not 00:56:45.489 --> 00:56:47.969 going to be good enough to be one of the best, 00:56:48.230 --> 00:56:51.269 but also a woman, right? So that should be that 00:56:51.269 --> 00:56:53.530 should not be even the conversation. It is it's 00:56:53.530 --> 00:56:55.769 an incredible amount of pressure. But also then 00:56:55.769 --> 00:56:59.449 you have like this sort of, again, you're stereotyping 00:56:59.449 --> 00:57:01.590 people that say that, you know, women in this 00:57:01.590 --> 00:57:05.389 space are so good. And then how does that translate 00:57:05.389 --> 00:57:08.000 to people who are trying to get into pre -sales, 00:57:08.059 --> 00:57:09.280 and I'm talking about women in particular here, 00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:11.039 but it's, it's, you know, for all minorities, 00:57:11.820 --> 00:57:14.679 is that then you're talking, you know, we suddenly 00:57:14.679 --> 00:57:17.980 become, unfortunately, the negative power in 00:57:17.980 --> 00:57:20.099 this space, where it's like, oh, to be in pre 00:57:20.099 --> 00:57:21.960 -sales, like, you need to be outspoken like Lydia 00:57:21.960 --> 00:57:24.099 Amanda, or you need to have like a really bubbly 00:57:24.099 --> 00:57:26.300 personality, or you need to be super techie. 00:57:26.360 --> 00:57:28.480 Otherwise, it doesn't work. Lydia No university 00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:30.679 would listen to this. And she would say, well, 00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:34.230 that's not the space for me then. Exactly. And 00:57:34.230 --> 00:57:37.590 that is so staggeringly sad because you don't 00:57:37.590 --> 00:57:41.210 have to be like me or you don't have to be like 00:57:41.210 --> 00:57:44.210 Amanda for this to be the space for you. You 00:57:44.210 --> 00:57:47.309 don't. Honestly, I'm happy you touched on that 00:57:47.309 --> 00:57:50.710 because that's where L .A .ship comes in. That 00:57:50.710 --> 00:57:52.969 is so important because when you do that exercise 00:57:52.969 --> 00:57:55.929 of, you know, identifying your biases, identifying 00:57:55.929 --> 00:57:59.110 like when you see a microaggression, actually 00:57:59.110 --> 00:58:02.409 identify it, you know, and you was. Probably 00:58:02.409 --> 00:58:04.469 a person that is not part of one of these groups 00:58:04.469 --> 00:58:06.690 or you're part of one group, but not part of 00:58:06.690 --> 00:58:10.309 the other That's when you can step up and try 00:58:10.309 --> 00:58:13.469 to give a hand to that person or it can help 00:58:13.469 --> 00:58:17.250 you on your own Process, you know, maybe if you're 00:58:17.250 --> 00:58:21.250 a manager Maybe try to make your team more diverse 00:58:21.250 --> 00:58:23.969 at the same time that everybody feels included 00:58:23.969 --> 00:58:26.829 We have like you said that the quota I think 00:58:26.829 --> 00:58:30.250 that managers can be great allies and I've been 00:58:30.250 --> 00:58:33.590 fortunate enough to have managers and mentors 00:58:33.590 --> 00:58:37.070 who are great allies, like they're white males 00:58:37.070 --> 00:58:39.650 and they have been allies and they have been 00:58:39.650 --> 00:58:43.650 in this deconstruction process and learning and 00:58:43.650 --> 00:58:48.030 asking questions and just trying to make things 00:58:48.030 --> 00:58:52.650 different. It's really heartbreaking when, for 00:58:52.650 --> 00:58:54.829 example, you have somebody

in your team that 00:58:54.829 --> 00:58:59.929 has a certain sexual orientation and they can't 00:58:59.929 --> 00:59:04.059 express that because people talk, right? I have 00:59:04.059 --> 00:59:06.280 a husband, I have a kid, I don't have kids, but 00:59:06.280 --> 00:59:09.679 I have a partner. And you always see that person 00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:12.960 just quiet because they can't express who they 00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:15.420 are. It's like the silliest things. How are you 00:59:15.420 --> 00:59:19.320 going to build that trust relationship when that 00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:23.159 person can be themselves? And that coming from 00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:27.280 the colleagues, the managers, the mentors, giving 00:59:27.280 --> 00:59:29.300 the space for that person to feel comfortable 00:59:29.300 --> 00:59:32.679 enough to say, yeah, i'm actually married to 00:59:32.679 --> 00:59:35.800 to a guy and we have a dog you know whatever 00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:38.800 i'm gay man married to another man and we're 00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:40.880 happy and that's that's where it is you know. 00:59:41.219 --> 00:59:44.820 That's fine you know like. It's really heartbreaking 00:59:44.820 --> 00:59:48.280 when you see somebody that has to like pretend 00:59:48.280 --> 00:59:50.920 there's something they're not and they say that 00:59:50.920 --> 00:59:54.110 because for women nowadays. It's gotten a lot 00:59:54.110 --> 00:59:56.289 better. You know, when I started like 20 years 00:59:56.289 --> 00:59:58.769 ago, like I had a customer ask me if my dad knew 00:59:58.769 --> 01:00:01.969 I was in that meeting, you know. So I have countless 01:00:01.969 --> 01:00:06.030 situations. I can tell countless stories. But 01:00:06.030 --> 01:00:09.650 nowadays it's been different. But not only like 01:00:09.650 --> 01:00:12.449 you suffer those, well, us as women, we used 01:00:12.449 --> 01:00:15.329 to suffer those microaggressions. We also didn't 01:00:15.329 --> 01:00:18.329 have people that would actually help us, you 01:00:18.329 --> 01:00:21.500 know, feel comfortable in our own skin. And we 01:00:21.500 --> 01:00:23.760 would make jokes about other women. I've been 01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:26.119 there. I've done it. I'm not proud of it, but 01:00:26.119 --> 01:00:30.300 that's part of my you know Growth as a human 01:00:30.300 --> 01:00:33.179 being so allyship is so important if you're in 01:00:33.179 --> 01:00:36.699 a position of privilege because of who you are 01:00:36.699 --> 01:00:39.239 Try to you know, lean a hand to somebody who 01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:42.219 isn't try to make them feel comfortable Because 01:00:42.219 --> 01:00:45.300 I bet that for you Lydia if you didn't feel comfortable 01:00:45.300 --> 01:00:48.369 enough to be bubbly and who you are You might 01:00:48.369 --> 01:00:49.989 have shut down. I don't think I would have made 01:00:49.989 --> 01:00:51.909 it in pre -sales. I'll be honest with you I think 01:00:51.909 --> 01:00:54.030 I would have like throw in the towel after because 01:00:54.030 --> 01:00:57.809 it was a hard like like learning curve Like I 01:00:57.809 --> 01:01:00.630 just couldn't see myself doing that. I was gonna 01:01:00.630 --> 01:01:03.989 go back to being an engineer I just you know, 01:01:03.989 --> 01:01:05.869 and I wouldn't have done all of the things I've 01:01:05.869 --> 01:01:08.750 already done and I would have you know I wouldn't 01:01:08.750 --> 01:01:11.050 have known what I could have done right, but 01:01:11.050 --> 01:01:12.909 it would have been regretful, right? It's just 01:01:12.909 --> 01:01:14.869 like this amazing career and this amazing community 01:01:14.869 --> 01:01:17.179 that I have of people I would have been completely 01:01:17.179 --> 01:01:20.019 lost to me. But I think that the topic of allyship 01:01:20.019 --> 01:01:23.519 is, it's important. And that's why, to the point 01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:26.079 about like separating, and we do it to ourselves, 01:01:26.099 --> 01:01:28.019 like we separate ourselves into a different room. 01:01:28.579 --> 01:01:30.340 It shouldn't be a different room. And it shouldn't 01:01:30.340 --> 01:01:32.820 be just talking about like, you know, purely 01:01:32.820 --> 01:01:35.780 either, you know, women topics or purely LGBTQ 01:01:35.780 --> 01:01:39.599 plus topics or purely ethnicity topics. It's 01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:44.159 always about like, you know, how can we as people 01:01:44.159 --> 01:01:47.360 help each other out? So, especially when it comes 01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:50.659 to allies, and by the way, same as you, most 01:01:50.659 --> 01:01:54.300 of the mentors I've had, most of the allies I've 01:01:54.300 --> 01:01:56.500 had throughout my career journey have, again, 01:01:56.780 --> 01:01:58.880 been your stereotypical pre -sales person. However, 01:01:59.039 --> 01:02:01.000 whatever that looks like in your mind, those 01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:03.239 were my people as well, and they're still my 01:02:03.239 --> 01:02:06.500 people. And I don't see a point where I could 01:02:06.500 --> 01:02:07.840 have turned around and went like, but actually, 01:02:07.940 --> 01:02:09.179 no, I would have preferred if you were in a different 01:02:09.179 --> 01:02:11.170 color. That would have been awful of me. Could 01:02:11.170 --> 01:02:13.150 you imagine? Like, just because like, oh, no, 01:02:13.409 --> 01:02:15.190 actually, like, you know, I would prefer someone. 01:02:15.269 --> 01:02:17.230 It's like, no, allyship comes in all shapes and 01:02:17.230 --> 01:02:19.949 sizes. And a very important point here is also 01:02:19.949 --> 01:02:22.469 when we're talking about diversity, you don't 01:02:22.469 --> 01:02:25.090 have to understand or you don't have to be able 01:02:25.090 --> 01:02:27.090 to fully put yourself in this other person's 01:02:27.090 --> 01:02:28.869 shoes. Because if you're someone that, for example, 01:02:28.929 --> 01:02:31.409 has never left the country,

obviously you have 01:02:31.409 --> 01:02:33.949 been a specific misty your whole life. You have 01:02:33.949 --> 01:02:36.070 always been a specific, you know, even social 01:02:36.070 --> 01:02:38.670 group your whole life. That is absolutely fine. 01:02:38.909 --> 01:02:40.909 You don't have to be able to fully put yourself 01:02:40.909 --> 01:02:43.789 in other people's shoes, but use your pre -sales 01:02:43.789 --> 01:02:46.929 like two years and one mouth mantra and listen 01:02:46.929 --> 01:02:49.289 more and hear exactly what these people are going 01:02:49.289 --> 01:02:52.670 through and see what is in your power to potentially 01:02:52.670 --> 01:02:55.809 help. You don't have to. It's all about empathy. 01:02:55.969 --> 01:02:58.489 It's all about empathy. And again, very importantly, 01:02:58.510 --> 01:03:01.889 you don't have to help, but it's about what is 01:03:01.889 --> 01:03:05.409 the impact you want to have on the world, on 01:03:05.409 --> 01:03:08.449 your career, on your work day. And if you think, 01:03:09.479 --> 01:03:12.739 That you not helping is not going to change much. 01:03:13.639 --> 01:03:16.320 So be it. I would challenge that because imagine 01:03:16.320 --> 01:03:19.480 the team, you know, the people that you, to Amanda's 01:03:19.480 --> 01:03:21.400 point earlier, you spend at the minimum eight 01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:24.019 hours a day with these people. Especially if 01:03:24.019 --> 01:03:26.059 it's someone that you work quite closely to. 01:03:26.380 --> 01:03:28.760 Imagine how much nicer would it be if you understand 01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:30.619 a little bit more about their culture. If it's 01:03:30.619 --> 01:03:32.920 a little bit more about their background, a little 01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:34.659 bit more about, you know, their relationship 01:03:34.659 --> 01:03:36.079 they have with you, you know, to the point of 01:03:36.079 --> 01:03:37.380 like, you know, oh, talking about kids and talking 01:03:37.380 --> 01:03:40.300 about partners. Like, yeah. That's a life that 01:03:40.300 --> 01:03:43.500 you don't have potentially. Question. Be curious. 01:03:44.059 --> 01:03:46.920 Be, you know, don't be afraid of asking these 01:03:46.920 --> 01:03:49.900 questions. If the person on the other side wants 01:03:49.900 --> 01:03:52.780 the same thing as you, aka creating a more, like 01:03:52.780 --> 01:03:55.260 a nicer environment to work at, those questions 01:03:55.260 --> 01:03:57.139 would not be turned down. Quite the opposite. 01:03:57.519 --> 01:04:00.190 People love talking about themselves. Of course 01:04:00.190 --> 01:04:02.769 we do. If you want to know that for an hour, 01:04:03.010 --> 01:04:04.650 there is something here. Yeah. You want to know 01:04:04.650 --> 01:04:06.610 about my background? Oh, I can't wait to tell 01:04:06.610 --> 01:04:08.469 you about like post -Soviet Bulgaria. Like it 01:04:08.469 --> 01:04:11.489 is fantastic, right? And that is how you create 01:04:11.489

--> 01:04:14.269 a more coercive team. It's by, again, not, not, 01:04:14.409 --> 01:04:16.269 you don't have to live and breathe like every 01:04:16.269 --> 01:04:18.289 single moment, but it's just acknowledging the 01:04:18.289 --> 01:04:20.230 fact that yes, it's natural to be, you know, 01:04:20.329 --> 01:04:22.510 to be tribal and to look for other people of 01:04:22.510 --> 01:04:26.599 your tribe. But in this day and age for a more 01:04:26.599 --> 01:04:30.579 effective, more cohesive, more richer workday. 01:04:31.099 --> 01:04:33.400 It is beneficial to bring people alongside you 01:04:33.400 --> 01:04:36.539 with your tribe. Give it a try. Well, Lydia, 01:04:36.599 --> 01:04:38.820 we're very good examples of that, right? You're 01:04:38.820 --> 01:04:41.380 from Bulgaria, all the way from the other side 01:04:41.380 --> 01:04:44.800 of the world in Brazil. Here we are. Yeah. And 01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:48.079 we have our differences in personality and experiences 01:04:48.079 --> 01:04:51.579 and whatever. We have points that we, a lot of 01:04:51.579 --> 01:04:54.150 points I would say, that we converge. Even though 01:04:54.150 --> 01:04:56.730 we come from different backgrounds and have different 01:04:56.730 --> 01:04:58.909 experiences and all of that. And that's great. 01:04:59.750 --> 01:05:01.610 Thank you so much for listening to this interview 01:05:01.610 --> 01:05:04.190 with Amanda. As you could tell, I was having 01:05:04.190 --> 01:05:06.510 a lot of fun talking to her and it was incredibly 01:05:06.510 --> 01:05:10.230 refreshing to have this conversation. I will 01:05:10.230 --> 01:05:13.469 have Amanda back on the podcast and I would love 01:05:13.469 --> 01:05:16.679 to dive into a couple of different topics that 01:05:16.679 --> 01:05:19.099 we didn't have really the time to expand on and 01:05:19.099 --> 01:05:21.900 just really also see as a refresh and as an update 01:05:21.900 --> 01:05:24.940 as where do we stand with all these things. Obviously 01:05:24.940 --> 01:05:27.500 my career path has changed a little bit, but 01:05:27.500 --> 01:05:29.099 the challenges and the other things that we did 01:05:29.099 --> 01:05:32.219 discuss during this episode, they do still apply 01:05:32.219 --> 01:05:34.460 and I would love to hear more from her as well 01:05:34.460 --> 01:05:37.480 and hopefully so do you. Please leave us some 01:05:37.480 --> 01:05:40.139 feedback. Best way to do that is via LinkedIn. 01:05:40.219 --> 01:05:42.300 You can always get in contact with Amanda herself. 01:05:42.889 --> 01:05:44.789 As I said, she's an incredibly friendly person 01:05:44.789 --> 01:05:47.429 to talk to, so I highly, highly recommend you 01:05:47.429 --> 01:05:49.750 reach out to her as well. Hopefully, I'll also 01:05:49.750 --> 01:05:51.829 get to see her this year at Denver Fest London, 01:05:52.210 --> 01:05:53.949 which I'm very excited about. If you want to 01:05:53.949 --> 01:05:55.929 see more of us, please follow the links in the 01:05:55.929 --> 01:05:58.269 episode description. We are also uploading all 01:05:58.269 --> 01:06:00.090 of this, all of the episodes slowly but surely 01:06:00.090 --> 01:06:02.409 onto YouTube for folks that do prefer to have 01:06:02.409 --> 01:06:04.349 that listening experience. Otherwise, you can 01:06:04.349 --> 01:06:06.269 find more episodes of the Wandering Tech podcast 01:06:06.269 --> 01:06:08.829 on your usual, in the usual places where you 01:06:08.829 --> 01:06:10.090 find your... Thank you so much for listening, 01:06:10.349 --> 01:06:11.150 and I will see you next time.