บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Burnham’s Devolution Revolution Funding Revealed

whole 35 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:36.640 of government will now pull together behind the people and 36 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:39.439 places that desperately need our support. This is how we'll 37 00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:41.400 bring back hope and bring power. 38 00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:41.920 Home to you. 39 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:45.480 Now, as with many of these announcements, there isn't much 40 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:48.159 by way of detail yet, with the government press release 41 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:52.599 saying this from next spring, mayors would begin retaining a 42 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:55.840 greater share of locally generated revenues, starting with business rates. 43 00:01:55.959 --> 00:01:58.799 Further details on this and on income tax retention will 44 00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:01.040 be set out in a roadmap the budget, and will 45 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:04.120 be underpinned by the government's firm commitment to fiscal discipline. 46 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.359 Over time, local areas will move away from dependence on 47 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:12.479 Whitehall grants and towards funding that rewards local growth. Regional 48 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:14.199 mayors will start being able to keep a share of 49 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:17.199 local business rates by twenty twenty seven, according to the plans, 50 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:20.120 and a share of income tax by twenty twenty eight. 51 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:22.800 Now isn't going to be any new money. 52 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.120 Though, but it is going to replace grants distributed by 53 00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:27.639 the Treasury, and we don't yet know the size of 54 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.960 the share that mayors will be allowed to keep. That's 55 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:33.560 something that Chancellor John Healey is set to announce. The budget, 56 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:36.560 which he announced today will be on the twenty eighth 57 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:39.759 of October, in the middle of half term. Still some 58 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:43.680 mayors are already celebrating. South Yorkshire Mayor Oliver Coppard told 59 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:47.439 The Guardian this it's really important because it gets us 60 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:49.360 out of the death grip of the Treasury and gives 61 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:53.599 us that long term certainty around income According to the Guardian, 62 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:56.840 a reliable projected income stream will have an additional benefit 63 00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:01.599 region for regional governments, with the Papers saying this England's 64 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:04.560 directly elected mayors, who control areas spanning three quarters of 65 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:07.080 the population, would be able to use the revenue generated 66 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:09.800 from business rates and income tax as they wish, including 67 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:13.759 tax breaks for important industries or rebates to residents. However,

68 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:16.759 experts said one of the most significant consequences was that 69 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:19.560 it would allow combined authorities to take out thirty year 70 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:23.360 loans against their projected income to fund major projects that 71 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:27.919 previously needed treasury approval. Local leaders will also be given 72 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:30.800 more freedom to operate independently of central government, with Transport 73 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:34.080 Secretary Hidi Alexander saying the threshold at which local leaders 74 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:36.639 need to seek treasury approval for projects or rise from 75 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:39.680 two hundred million pounds to five hundred million pounds. On 76 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:42.000 the Morning News Rounds, First Secretary of State Louise Haig 77 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:44.280 set out a little more detail on how it will work. 78 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:47.599 Income tax and business rates will still be set by 79 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:50.520 the UK government centrally, but different areas will be able 80 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:52.639 to retain a share of those and that will give 81 00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:55.240 them an incentive to grow their economy so that they 82 00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:57.240 can then keep a share of the proceeds of that 83 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:00.560 growth and reinvest it, so it becomes a virtual circle 84 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:04.759 of investment. You see this happen really successfully in countries 85 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:07.000 like France. I was in Leon not very long ago, 86 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:09.879 where they retain a proportion of their tax intake and 87 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:12.159 then they can invest it and they have world class 88 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:16.360 integrated transport systems and cities that are far smaller than 89 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:19.199 ones here where we don't have anywhere like the kind 90 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:20.319 of investment that they enjoy. 91 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:21.680 So what about areas. 92 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:24.519 I'm thinking we've got a mayor of London, the wealthiest 93 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:28.199 city in the country, that would get a proportion that 94 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:30.680 the same rules applies. It would get the proportion of 95 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:33.279 income tax. Yet if you go to a region elsewhere 96 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:35.920 in the country which won't have that same income tax, 97 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:37.480 it won't be getting as much money. 98 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:41.959 Is that fair? Yeah? 99 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:46.720 Correct, So areas will retain different proportions of their income 100 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:48.959 tax and business rates. That's exactly how it works at 101 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.120 the moment, with some business rates retention, and that's offset 102 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:55.680 by central government funding, so it will be it will 103 00:04:55.720 --> 00:04:59.439 be offset by proportional formula that's set centrally to make 104 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:03.800 sure that funding is still is still fair and equal 105 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:06.519 across the country, but it will crucially give them that 106 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:10.199 incentive to really grow their economy, create extra jobs, invest 107 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:13.199 in their businesses, and ensure a thriving local economy that 108 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:17.240 they can then recirculate the revenue from into investment in 109 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:17.680 their area. 110 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:21.480 So Heyer's right that what's being proposed is actually fairly 111 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:22.959 standard in other G seven countries. 112 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:25.240 The BBC rather reports this. 113 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:29.720 The share of national taxes collected at a local level 114 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:31.879 in the UK is five point eight percent, the lowest 115 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:34.759 in the G seven. According to the OECD, That share 116 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:36.879 is far below that of other countries with large economies, 117 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:39.000 such as France at twenty point four percent, Japan at 118 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:41.759 thirty six percent, and the US at forty five point 119 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:45.879 seven percent. Paul, you may surprise, maybe you're going to 120 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:48.480 supplies me, but I can't find a lot to disagree 121 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:51.319 with in this. I mean, obviously there's very little detail. 122 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:55.040 We don't know what proportion of these taxes local governments, 123 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:57.360 local mayors will be able to take. There's also this 124 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:01.560 calculation that will determine that perhaps richer cities get less 125 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:04.519 of a share than poorer than poorer areas. But you know, 126 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:07.319 is this the right direction of travel? I mean, I'm 127 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:08.439 presuming going to say yes. 128 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:11.160 Now I feel like I have to do Devil's Advocate 129 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:13.079 and say no and make up so nonsense argument as 130 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:16.360 to why it's a bad idea. But I mean, I 131 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:22.120 think generally speaking, most people accept this idea, that that 132 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:23.319 localism is. 133 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:26.199 It's a good way of governing. 134 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:29.879 Generally speaking, the decisions that are sort of regionally driven, 135 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:33.160 where people have a direct implement over you know, their 136 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:38.160 own unique economic circumstances, generally produces better democratic outcomes. I 137 00:06:38.199

--> 00:06:41.240 think that's pretty widely accepted, not least in you know. 138 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:44.160 And it has to be said that this country is 139 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:47.800 deeply and profoundly centralized. It really is a very you know, 140 00:06:47.959 --> 00:06:50.759 much more so than other countries. You know, London and 141 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:55.120 the Treasury and Westminster exercises vast control over the day 142 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.079 to day life of huge numbers of people. And there 143 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:01.079 is this like real sense that there is a deficit 144 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:04.360 between what people around the country think is good for 145 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:07.000 them and what Treasury does. And there's really the sense 146 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:11.160 of a local politics being stifled. And I think it 147 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:13.319 has interesting it has interesting implications. 148 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:13.600 You know. 149 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:17.600 So, first of all the one the one caveat I 150 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:19.879 would say, the one negative thing I would say is 151 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:23.399 that just because governments as local doesn't necessarily it doesn't 152 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:26.199 necessarily always mean it's going to be quality governance, right, 153 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:28.399 because you can have bad local government and. 154 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:29.839 You can have corruption and all kinds of things go 155 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:31.000 on at that level. Yeah, And. 156 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:35.000 You know, one of the issues that that I think 157 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:36.480 will have to be looked at when it comes to 158 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:39.920 local government is the extent to which you've had Historically, 159 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:43.639 You've had regions and entities which have effectively become day 160 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:46.560 factor one party states which are very problematic in terms 161 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:48.360 of corruption. Right, so used to that and it doesn't 162 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:50.600 happen as much anymore. Well, certainly of the last local 163 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:53.800 elections have got more it got a bit more untidy 164 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:55.800 because of the Green surged. But for a long period 165 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:57.879 of time you had, you know, large parts of this 166 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:00.519 country where local government is efectively run by a single 167 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:02.920 you know, a single party. So the Labor Party, for example, 168 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:06.199 had fifteen out of sixty councilors in new them would 169 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:09.720 have seventy out of seventy two councilors in Newcastle, and 170 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:14.000 that can breed a problematic situation where you know, the 171 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:18.560 party itself, which is can be

dysfunctional, produces a dysfunctional 172 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:21.319 selection of counselors who then don't represent people, and then 173 00:08:21.319 --> 00:08:23.600 it becomes like a very problematic space for corruption. 174 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:25.519 That's true of sort of every level of government. 175 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:28.120 Right, So that's the one caveat I have is like, 176 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:30.000 you know, localism I think is a really a good idea, 177 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:32.960 but I also think there needs to be a discussion 178 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:36.480 about how we improve the quality of local government and 179 00:08:36.519 --> 00:08:39.440 how we you know, it might be that that that 180 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:43.720 the way in which our local elections are structured needs 181 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:47.679 to be rethought so you don't have a situation where 182 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:51.399 one party dominates, because it really is problematic. I think 183 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:55.120 the exciting prospects are things like you you compare study 184 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:59.600 can't Sazarammdani, right, Like you can actually have under this 185 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:04.720 smart it is believable and incredible and imaginable that you 186 00:09:04.759 --> 00:09:08.519 can have a form of like actually effective municipal socialism. 187 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:09.279 Right. 188 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:11.039 It does actually give the scope for you to do 189 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:13.639 the pressor model and plenty of different places. It does 190 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.919 actually give you the scope for mayors like zom i'm 191 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:22.279 daney to emerge as national political players. The question would 192 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:25.120 anybody takes up that opportunity and runs with it? But 193 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:28.240 it could be like really interesting in terms of shaping 194 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:30.159 our sort of national political conversation. 195 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:35.000 And also majorties will become a much hotter political race. 196 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:36.919 Right everybody is going to want to be the mayor 197 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:39.320 of somewhere because you have you'll have a bit of 198 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.240 what Burnham had in Manchester, but like everywhere right where 199 00:09:42.360 --> 00:09:44.759 you've got a sort of great little power, you've got 200 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:46.240 an independent budget and so on and so forth. 201 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:47.879 It can be very attractive. One of the things I 202 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:48.519 thought was really. 203 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:53.080 Interesting is this idea of like enabling borrowing, because obviously 204 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:56.039 that could be quite large amounts of borrowing based you know, 205 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:00.759 over thirty years for a region, based on its tax 206 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:03.440 tax revenue, So an easy calculation more or less to 207 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:06.759 make is a kind of a way of getting borrowing 208 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:12.320 in for infrastructure, but not via central governments books perhaps. 209 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.919 Yeah, and that again, that could genuine that that's the 210 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:16.759 one thing you read. I was like, that's actually really interesting. 211 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:19.639 That's like really transformative. You can actually have large scale 212 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:23.120 local borrowing. Again, I'm going to sound like a bit 213 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:25.759 of a warning. 214 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:25.879 Saying like birming and Birmingham. 215 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:28.440 Actually my thinking, I've been reading a lot. I've been 216 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:30.440 reading and I'm going to totally forget its name, but 217 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:32.960 I've been reading a very interesting book about Manchester recently, 218 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:35.279 which is about, you know, looking at the history of 219 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:37.399 Manchester over the last hundred years and takes up to 220 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:41.600 the current cycle. And it looks at basically the development 221 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:44.000 of Manchester over the last twenty years under Andy Burnham, 222 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:45.919 which he sort of runs on as like I've brought 223 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.080 prosperity to the city, and of course the picture is 224 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:50.960 a lot more complicated, where effectively what you've had, according 225 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:52.759 you know to a more cynical and more sort of 226 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:56.360 a left bring analysis, is that well you've actually had 227 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:59.799 a lot of state money, you know, effectively loans being granted. 228 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.759 Development is granted by the state and the local government 229 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:07.039 to private entities which have built these massive tower blocks 230 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:08.799 and effectively turns it into a rentier city. 231 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:09.279 Pretty much. 232 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:11.879 One private entity is right here, which is the main 233 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:14.080 ones that they've got two hundred million dollars. It's undred 234 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:16.559 million pounds out of the four hundred million that's been 235 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:19.639 being learned out. So you know, these are all good things. 236 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:22.360 It's good to have localism. I do worry that, like 237 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:25.639 so much of Britain's you know, this is all happening 238 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:29.799 in the context of a broader macroeconomic situation where the 239 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:32.080 returns for capital are always better when it comes

to 240 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.320 building rentier house, and it does when it comes to 241 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:38.000 actually building. You know, if it's going to be investment driven, 242 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:41.320 that's going to be and ins investment driving around housing, 243 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.080 that's going to potentially have perverse outcomes. If it's instead 244 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:46.600 used to be like we're arguable one hundred thousand actually 245 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.519 counsel home properties, that's transformative. If it's combined with other 246 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:52.720 thing I think it's interesting, which I think is maybe 247 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:55.240 the need to be seen together is the plans for 248 00:11:55.240 --> 00:11:57.840 the National Care Service because the key, the key drain 249 00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:00.799 on local budgets is as care. So if you take 250 00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:02.639 if you have a national care service and then you 251 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:05.320 have local fundraising, suddenly you're going to have these these 252 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:08.639 mayoralties and these these these local councils which actually for 253 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:12.000 the first time probably in forty years, will have the 254 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:14.840 budget to spend and they could spend that money either 255 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:20.519 catalyzing Redia style investment, or they could be building council housing, 256 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.840 or they can be building integrated infrastructure or positive opportunities, 257 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:29.360 but which you basically need like local political activism to take. 258 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:32.559 And of course, like local political activism is easier at 259 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:34.679 the local level, right, You're much more likely to influence 260 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:36.840 your your mayor or your local council than you are 261 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:38.720 to the national government. 262 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:42.360 That's an interesting I'm not so sure how that's true. 263 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:46.080 That actually is right? It mus it must be. I 264 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:49.799 feel like it. I suppose. 265 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:51.679 I mean, you'd think it would be right, but then 266 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:54.679 I but then I think of my experience and like 267 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:58.799 the dirtiest, the ugliest part of the labor party is 268 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:01.440 like a counselor level. Like that's where it's like tooth 269 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:05.240 and nail nastiness and also the pettiest stuff, right, because 270 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.840 that's like the that is the hardcore. These are people 271 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:12.000 who have given their lives. They want to be politicians. 272 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:13.960 They can make some money off it, they can make 273 00:13:14.000 -->

00:13:15.960 money of being counselors, but they can also then you know, 274 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:21.120 benefit potentially from maybe I'll be able to become you know, 275 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:23.879 the owner of a parking lot, or you know, I'm 276 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:25.600 going to be controlling zoning that sort of stuff. That 277 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:30.279 there is scope for personal enrichment there and you'd think 278 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:35.039 that like localized democracy would be better. But if it's 279 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.799 localized democracy being enacted through a one party stay through 280 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:38.960 a dysfunctional party. 281 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:42.279 Actually yeah, sure, and it's actually quite hard. 282 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:47.039 And the other thing that's going to have to you know, 283 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:49.759 one of the issues around local democracy that we have 284 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:53.519 is like the death of local media, which is really profound. 285 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:55.080 You know, you have a couple of cities where it's 286 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:57.360 where it's surviving and it's thriving, and a lot of 287 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:00.679 places it's not. And that's you know, that's one of 288 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:04.360 the things that generally militates against like a degree of accountability. 289 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:07.399 So I'd be interested to see whether, now there's money 290 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.120 returning to these places, whether that will then fund organically 291 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:15.519 an emergence of an alternative or new local media, because 292 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:17.519 it used to be you'd have like local newspapers to 293 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:21.440 reach little eco you know, great investigative papers like actual 294 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.080 you know, you know, really good. Now they sadly they've 295 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:25.720 been like really hollowed out. 296 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:27.919 Yeah, you know, pretty much only owned by one BBC 297 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:30.080 local journalism completely wrecked. 298 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:33.600 Yeah, so you know, all potentially positive, but these are 299 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:35.200 the things that we have to like deal with is 300 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:36.919 that you know you will then have to be will. 301 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:41.039 Then there has to be a commensurate commitment to being like, well, 302 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:43.639 you can't. You actually need to improve the quality and 303 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:45.879 the ability of people to engage in the local democracy 304 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:47.279 for localism to work. 305 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:49.960 Great. Okay, let's move on with this story now. 306 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:52.159 Now, this plan for a bit of economic devolution is 307 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:55.240 intended to free regional

mayors to stimulate their own economies 308 00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:58.720 by investing in things like infrastructure and the infrastructure that 309 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:01.679 best serves their community. But some think it doesn't go 310 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:05.240 far enough. Mayor of Tees Valley and Tory Pierre ben 311 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:09.120 Houchin said this, I'd rather ministers just cut out the 312 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:11.440 middleman and lower taxes, but if they're handing me a 313 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:14.320 share of the income tax raised on Teesside, true devolution 314 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.080 means a decision where to spend it is for locally 315 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:19.679 elected leaders. I want to give every penny back to 316 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:22.080 the workers who earned it through a rebate scheme. If 317 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:24.320 people don't like that, they can vote for someone else. 318 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.879 That's what real accountability looks like. But today Westminster decided 319 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.480 it knew better as it always does. Now, if reporting 320 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:34.440 from private eye is to believe done, you know, I 321 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:36.320 don't know whether it is. Houchin may in fact be 322 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:39.480 a pretty good counterargument to devolution. This relates to the 323 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.080 Teesworks freeport in Teeside, the development of which has been 324 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:47.399 dogged by allegations of lack of transparency, lack of transparency 325 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:50.200 and poor value for public money. This is from Richard Brooks, 326 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:54.519 writing in Private Eye in twenty twenty five. It was 327 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:57.120 to be the UK's largest regeneration scheme in decades, a 328 00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:00.000 model for regional devolution, and the flagship post Brexit free 329 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.159 But the redevelopment of the former steel works on the 330 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:04.279 south bank of the River Tees became little more than 331 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.840 an unlawful, taxpayer funded scheme to promote the political career 332 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:10.240 of a Tory golden boy and vastly enrich a couple 333 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.039 of local businessmen and their families, all hidden in a 334 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:14.080 web of deception. 335 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:16.279 Don't hold your punch, as Richard. 336 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:19.120 In twenty twenty four, an independent investigation into the Teesport 337 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:21.720 development found that deals had been done in secret, public 338 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:24.399 funders had been misled, the private companies involved had made 339 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.159 zero investments into that scheme, and there was no evidence 340 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:29.240 that it represented value for money for the public. And 341 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:30.679 now it's important to point out that there were no 342 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:35.240 findings of criminality or corruption with dishonesty. Louise Hay had 343 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:37.399 this response to Hutchin's rebate proposal. 344 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:40.399 At the moment, that's not how it works. They have 345 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.000 lines of funding and they go in. That's how it's 346 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:46.879 invested into public services. We've seen what the mayors have 347 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.840 said about rebates. There's not a system that would currently 348 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:52.480 allow that, and they certainly wouldn't be able to set 349 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:56.679 tax rates locally or regionally, but will consider what proposals 350 00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:59.919 are put forward. The real purpose of this, though, is 351 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:04.680 to allow areas to benefit when they create growth, when 352 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:07.559 they create new jobs, and to keep investing in their 353 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.079 local areas in public services, in transport, and to keep 354 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:12.480 that virtuous circle of investment. 355 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:15.000 I suppose the point is that if you're giving power 356 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:18.079 to localities, and that's very much what you say want 357 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:20.640 to do, then you would have to give them the 358 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:23.839 power to do things that you might not necessarily approve 359 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:26.599 of you as a labor party, are you willing to 360 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:30.240 say yes if Ben Houtcher wants to do something differently, 361 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:35.039 if the mayor of Cambridgeshire and Huntingdon, who we talked 362 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:38.599 to earlier on Cambridgire and Peterborough. If he wants to 363 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:41.240 do things that he wants to do, then we are 364 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:45.200 willing to allow those people to have the freedom to 365 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:48.359 do things and to see whether they were well. 366 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:53.119 That's exactly right, and we can't sit back and allow 367 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:56.119 this country to remain the most centralized in the G seven, 368 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.079 which is held back our growth and our productivity and 369 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:03.279 held back investment levels because we worry that certain parts 370 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.759 of the country might elect different political parties to our own. 371 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.720 I mean calling naive. I feel like it probably won't 372 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:15.880 work like that right in the end. Excuse me, but 373 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.359 I think there is something to be said about, you know, 374 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:21.160 perhaps as a

way in which when you when you 375 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:24.559 inject money into these regional areas, where you allow them 376 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:26.319 to keep some of the money that they're generating in 377 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:30.440 order to spend locally, it does give bad leaders in 378 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.319 those areas enough rope playing themselves with it and be 379 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:35.440 elected out as so long as there is an opposition 380 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:35.839 to to. 381 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.079 But that's actually it's interesting because because when I first 382 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:41.960 read the story, I thought that actually we hey were saying, 383 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:43.200 we know we're not going to allow that to happen. 384 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:46.640 It's actually basically seemed to be she used to be suggested, well, 385 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:49.319 that's what you want to do, you know, on your 386 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.119 head be it. You know, your local voters will hold 387 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:52.839 your accountable, and I think they would hold them all. 388 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:54.519 She said, there is there's no mechanism to do it. 389 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:57.119 But then she does also say she does basically say, 390 00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:59.720 you know, you know, we will bring forwards proposers and 391 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:01.680 will scuss. So it's not a hard not I mean, 392 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:03.680 I think it would be a little bit mad to 393 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.039 basically be like, here as twenty percent of your you know, 394 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:09.599 here's a master lack of money, just give it back 395 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:11.519 as tax rebates to a really wealthy people instead of 396 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:14.559 investing in infrastructure. I suspect they'll probably be slightly more 397 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:17.480 controlled than that. But the point stance and the point 398 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.799 that I was making earlier and again, I think it's 399 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:22.319 useful to bring up Pouchin and the tea side development. 400 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:24.799 And I really would encourage people to go and read 401 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:27.160 that Private Air report, which is actually on the privateized website. 402 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:28.680 Still it's one of the few things you can still 403 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:33.480 read and you know that that is a scheme where 404 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.400 just I mean really genuinely vast amounts of public money 405 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:40.480 have gone into it, and they've been a handful of 406 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:42.400 people who've put in very little of their own money 407 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:44.839 and have made fortunes a hundred, like over one hundred million. 408 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:46.720 I think it's one hundred and thirty five million pounds 409 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:50.960 that this group of business people and their families made. 410 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:57.359 And this is it speaks to you know, localism is good, 411 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.640 but local neoliberalism is going to be bad, just like 412 00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:03.839 you know, you can have just you know, just because 413 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.240 it's local doesn't necessarily means it's going to have good outcomes, right, Like. 414 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:08.440 I feel. 415 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:12.640 There became a bit of a thing in the Labor 416 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.839 Party and the soft left, this idea, you know, people 417 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:19.880 who didn't want to make sort of overly tendentious arguments 418 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:22.519 about the nature of the political economy, about the status quo, 419 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:24.839 would start talking about localism as of was this like 420 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:26.799 radical get out of jail free call. If you give 421 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:28.960 people local decisions and not do socialism on their own, 422 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:32.720 we don't have to defend it. That's not necessarily true. 423 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:34.960 But what it does show is that like it's it 424 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:37.359 doesn't you know, it's going to be the content of 425 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:40.599 that local government that matters. If you have poor quality, 426 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:42.759 if you have a neoliberal local government, it's going to 427 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:45.200 be a neoliberal outcome which is going to be problematic. 428 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:49.440 Which is actually, ironically the argument that underpins a lot 429 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:51.519 of the critique of Manchester at this point, which is 430 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:53.480 that you know, Manchester on the one had, it's had 431 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.359 a tremendous amount of economic growth. You know, there's completely 432 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:00.000 different city centers to what looked like twenty thirty years ago, 433 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:04.880 but it's all privately owned, it's all rental based. It's 434 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:08.359 created a huge amount of displacement. It's increased rents pretty 435 00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:11.079 much across the heart of greater Manchester. And we even 436 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:14.880 sordering the Gorton, so not the Gorton, but the Makeidfield 437 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:17.200 by election. There was a lot of sympathy with people 438 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:18.680 standing and be like, well, you know the stuff was 439 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:20.519 having in Manchester, but none of it's actually made our 440 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:23.160 life worse because what it all it's done is basically 441 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:26.720 push problems from the center towards the periphery, and it's 442 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.119

meant everything more expensive. So again it's like great localism 443 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:32.680 is fantastic. Great, I give people more power if the 444 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:35.200 people are there are Tory bastards who want to give 445 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:35.799 it to their mates. 446 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:38.640 This is going to be a bad thing. Then you 447 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:39.640 have to suspect that. 448 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:45.440 You know, one of the one advantage of hypercentralization is 449 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:48.400 if you centralize everything, that then like ordered functions become 450 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:50.759 centralized and then you can have like a very tightly 451 00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:54.160 controlled system. So you'd have to imagine that if you're 452 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:56.400 going to have increased expenditures, you are going to have 453 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.079 to make sure that in Darlington they have like more 454 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:02.039 people working in the order offers. Otherwise then really will 455 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:03.079 be a disaster if they don't. 456 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:03.599 Do that well. 457 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:06.400 I think Burnham was as part of this announcement, was 458 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.240 the kind of whistling down of the civil service in 459 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:12.480 the in the center to other parts of the country. Yes, 460 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:16.599 I would say on the on a neoliberalism in Manchester. 461 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:18.799 One of my favorite journalists on this who I've been 462 00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:22.240 falling for ages is someone called Zoe Bread on Instagram 463 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:28.200 and TikTok. Yeah, starting off with wrong parking tickets and 464 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:33.240 moving on to skyscrapers and now onto warehousing, ruining people's 465 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:38.119 property prices and just sort of dumped there. So Zoe, 466 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:42.720 if you're watching, get in touch, let's stick with Oh, 467 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:44.200 before I go on, I want to ask you something else. 468 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:46.079 I mean, look, just let's go to the politics of this. 469 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:49.079 You know, there's no details here, but you know, we've 470 00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:52.039 basically had a week two weeks now in which Burnham 471 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:54.640 has on a day to day basis made some kind 472 00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:58.519 of announcement which is pretty pleasing to a lot of people. 473 00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:02.400 The detail is yet to come, but you know, bus fairs, 474 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:06.400 care service, you know, more money for the more money 475 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:10.559 for regional governments. Is He's doing a pretty good job 476 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:13.200 politically right at this at this point. 477 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.839 Yeah, I mean,

I suppose the metric is is what 478 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:19.240 is a good job. If the if the metric for 479 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:22.240 successes he's been using popular things and has been popular 480 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:24.640 and has increasing the layer of party's poll ratings and 481 00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:27.079 his poor ratings, then yes he's succeeding. I don't you know, 482 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:28.720 I don't pass juge on whether this stuff is going 483 00:23:28.759 --> 00:23:31.160 to be good from like a left wing perspective. That's 484 00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:34.680 that's a whole other argument. You know, he is he is. 485 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:37.960 I think he's learned two lessons. I think there's been 486 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:39.960 two politicians who've basically shown you how to do it 487 00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:42.279 and how not to do it, and the politicians showed 488 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:43.839 you not how to do it, how not to do 489 00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:48.240 a starmo and McSweeney, who liked the most misery guts tour, 490 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.119 which most people sort of deeper their bones understood was 491 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.519 deeply misleading. And you know, there was this real sense 492 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:58.640 that the layer parties so that we could change things. 493 00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:00.559 And then basically we had you know, the last twenty 494 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:03.759 thirty forty years of government has been sorry, the computer says, 495 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:06.160 now we can't actually make your life better, and standard 496 00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:09.039 at that again. And the one person who you know, 497 00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:13.519 I think is undoubtedly the most talented politician of our 498 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:16.599 generation is or Mum Duney like undoubtedly. And the thing 499 00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:19.079 that always trikes me about rum Doney is his ability 500 00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:22.759 to is that it feels like everything is strategically oriented, 501 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:24.319 that he spent years and years and years with his 502 00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:27.000 colleagues thinking about a strategy for how to govern. And 503 00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:28.359 one of the things I've come up is that you 504 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:31.960 have to immediately do big things on a day to 505 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:34.680 day basis and be communicating on a daily basis a 506 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:39.799 good news story of some kind. The problem is you 507 00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:42.640 actually have to be doing stuff that is good news. 508 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:44.519 Making good news actually have to be making good news. 509 00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:46.599 So the thing that why zerum Doney works is he's 510 00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.599 both a very expective communicator, but he's done great things right, 511 00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:52.400 Like he's done the peedter ted attacks and he's done 512 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:55.200 you know, bringing you free childcare. You can't, you know, 513 00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:57.640 the centrist learning of this is going to be you 514 00:24:57.640 --> 00:24:59.279 should just be talking to social media every day. 515 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:00.079 So if you're talking to so sus. 516 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:01.839 Media every day about how you're not going to be 517 00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:04.799 closing the carried interest loophole, you're screwed. 518 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:06.759 You actually have to be doing things that people like. 519 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:10.119 It also shows I think I think Burnham is just 520 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:13.759 proving this ungovernability thesis, like there was a sense of 521 00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:16.519 like it's all falling apart, we're all fracturing. No, we 522 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:17.839 just had really crap on it. 523 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:21.519 Yeah, because you say you say this is like you know, 524 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:23.359 you say this though this is easy and obvious, but 525 00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.759 nobody has done it, like I can't remember. I mean 526 00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:31.559 Corbyn maybe in that twenty nineteen manifesto, but obviously the 527 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:36.079 country rejected it. But you know, I have not seen 528 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:40.119 this kind of sense of like people need things, let's 529 00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:40.799 give them to them. 530 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.519 And I wonder whether I was thinking about this, like, 531 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:49.119 what is the difference between like, why is Burnham you know, 532 00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:52.559 for the first time I think ever in since an election, 533 00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:54.319 since a parameter has come and I was looking at 534 00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:57.119 the approval ratings. You know, Burnham's at plus nineteen at 535 00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.440 the moment, yeah, which in this you know, was never 536 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.920 a plus nineteen, never once. And then Richie's seen it before. 537 00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:06.799 Then you know, we've basically had a good decade where 538 00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.279 our politicians were pretty much hated, you know, not for 539 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:14.799 bad reason. And I do wonder whether he's obviously had 540 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.079 some he had an inbuilt advantage, which is basically he 541 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:19.799 hasn't been an opposition, and I do think that makes 542 00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:22.279 a difference. I do think there is something about being 543 00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:25.640 in an opposition for a multiple years that like crushes 544 00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:29.799 the spirit of most people. And they also they also restrained. 545 00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:32.359 I feel like the act of being an opposition is 546 00:26:32.400 -->

00:26:34.559 the act of various elements of the British state coming 547 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:36.920 to you telling you better shut up, you better stay 548 00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:39.759 in line. You can't actually do that. You go to 549 00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:42.839 thirteen different business meetings with like you know, salmon and 550 00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:47.200 smoked eggs offensive and you know, various hedge fund people 551 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.440 telling you if you increase my tax pil one point 552 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:51.599 two percent. I'm moving my family to France and I'm 553 00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:53.400 going to tell all the other He hasn't gone through 554 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:57.559 that process. He hasn't been disciplined. But also he has 555 00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:01.599 like a total fresh light to set a message just 556 00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:04.319 as all very advantageous, bad for democracy. 557 00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.039 That the way he came to power, I think. 558 00:27:06.359 --> 00:27:09.200 But those are the inbuilt advantages he has and he's 559 00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:11.200 taken to his credit, he's taken them a none of them. 560 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:13.799 And another advantage he has of not being having been 561 00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:15.240 in Parliament for a long time is he has no 562 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:17.680 record that people can present to him as you know, 563 00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:20.079 hypocrisy or going back on the because he doesn't said 564 00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:22.640 anything really, so it is helpful. 565 00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:25.759 Basically what we need is politicians, all politicians who need 566 00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:28.279 to be like in the country, both national and local, 567 00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:30.960 should have their brains wiped and be a tabula rasa 568 00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:32.200 and then that's how they should have But. 569 00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:35.400 We should just pick randoms for Prime Minister my sautician. Yeah, 570 00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:41.680 it worked so well in a recent party. Let's stick 571 00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:44.200 with the Burnham government for a moment. Earlier this month, 572 00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:47.559 Andy Burnham said this about Kirstarmer's handling of Israel's assault 573 00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:48.200 on Gaza. 574 00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:51.759 I know many people feel that at the start of 575 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:55.440 Israel's military action in Gaza, my party didn't get it right, 576 00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:59.119 and I am sorry about that. The response has too 577 00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:03.240 often not been good enough. We need to do better. Yes, 578 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.880 we have taken some important steps. These include recognizing the 579 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:12.359 Palestinian state, placing sanctions on Israeli ministers, and imposing waves 580 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:16.440 of sanctions on violent settlers and

the organizations that support them. 581 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:19.920 I also fully support the restrictions on arms licenses to 582 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.240 make sure that no British bombs or bullets can be 583 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:25.119 used by the IDF in Gaza or in the West Bank. 584 00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:28.160 But let's be honest, the UK was too slow to 585 00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:30.839 call for a ceasefire, and we must now do more 586 00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:36.160 to strengthen our approach. Israel continues to violate the ceasefire agreement, 587 00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:40.119 killing innocent Palestinians. We're seeing a surge in settler violence 588 00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:42.839 in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and the continued 589 00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:48.799 expansion of illegal settlements displacing Palestinian communities, and Nettnaku's government 590 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.119 is clearly attempting to make a two state solution impossible. 591 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:55.440 That's why we need to do more which includes looking 592 00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:58.720 at further sanctions both on those involved in the violence 593 00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:02.039 in Gaza, but also looking at measures to ban trade 594 00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:06.039 in goods with illegal settlements. I, like many people, feel 595 00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:08.799 passionately about Gaza, and I will do everything I can 596 00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:12.400 to work with international partners to stop the suffering, to 597 00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:16.559 ensure the Israeli government adheres to international law, and to 598 00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:19.680 keep the prospect of a two states solution alive because 599 00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:22.720 this is the only way to lasting peace for both 600 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.920 Israelis and Palestinians. I have been absolutely appalled by what 601 00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.720 I've seen and read about the destruction of Gaza. There's 602 00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:34.079 increasing evidence that war crimes appear to have been committed. 603 00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.559 There must be accountability for the depth of the suffering 604 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.240 the people of Gaza have experienced. Ultimately, however, it must 605 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:44.720 be for the international courts to determine rather than politicians. 606 00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:48.279 So quite a lot of words there about things he 607 00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:53.039 will do, like constrain the Israeli strange good luckmate. But 608 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:54.920 the important thing I think there was that bit at 609 00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:58.680 the end where he talked about how for him evidence 610 00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.160 is mounting that shows the be war crimes. But this 611 00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:03.960 is for courts to the side, which will only happen 612 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:06.079 after the event, which means it's too late for anybody

613 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:10.079 who is war crimed anyway. The Palisonian Solidarity Campaign has 614 00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:12.319 today it released a video and it shows that some 615 00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:14.839 of Burnham's new crop of ministers just don't agree with 616 00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:17.519 that thought that politicians shouldn't decide whether the war crimes 617 00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:19.480 have been committed by Israel in Garsa. 618 00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:23.119 It is impossible to conclude that this is anything less 619 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:24.279 than a genocide. 620 00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:31.279 So on that basis. 621 00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:33.680 Will he reflect the will of this House to the 622 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:38.279 Foreign Secretary and to the Cabinet to impose immediately sanctions 623 00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:41.160 on Nettan Yahoo and his genocidal regime. 624 00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:44.319 Genocide is not something we can only recognize when it's 625 00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:52.839 politically convenient. As a singletary to the Genocide Convention, we 626 00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:56.400 have a legal obligation to call out and prevent genocide. 627 00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:58.759 We owe it to not look away from the devastation 628 00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:01.319 and to bear witness to what has been inflicted on 629 00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:09.279 the Palestinian people. We owe it to bear witness to 630 00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:12.400 this history, to this ongoing genocide. 631 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:14.960 Until the international community take further action. Letting now, whose 632 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:23.279 pursuit of to ethnically cleanse Palestine will not end and 633 00:31:23.319 --> 00:31:26.319 the horrors of genocide become the waking nightmare for those 634 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:27.519 still alive to witness it. 635 00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:30.640 The Minister knows the gravity of the moment that we 636 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:40.119 are in famine, ethnic cleansing, genocide. He knows that our 637 00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:44.759 actions must be equal to the scale and the gravity 638 00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:45.400 of the moment. 639 00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:48.759 Genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide, a. 640 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:53.640 Genocide, Andy Burnham, it is a genocide and it's time 641 00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:54.440 for action. 642 00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:58.240 Sign our petition sanctions now. 643 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:00.680 Cool. 644 00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:03.920 Interesting there, So you've got Andy Burnham saying, you know, 645 00:32:04.039 --> 00:32:05.599 we've got to leave it to the courts to decide 646 00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:07.440 whether they're all. They didn't even use the word genocide. 647 00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:09.240 He just said war crimes, whether war crimes are being 648 00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:13.279 committed in Israel, which I think they so obviously are 649 00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:17.960 you know, obviously you know, I mean, I think that 650 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.319 this is obviously genocidal behavior on the part of Israel. 651 00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:22.480 But I can see that, you know, other people might 652 00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:26.359 have might think differently about it, whatever war crimes I think. 653 00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:28.200 You know, there's there's this like and there's no debate 654 00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:30.839 about that. And then you've got a number of his 655 00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:34.160 minister's new ministers who have in the past just openly 656 00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:35.160 called it a genocide. 657 00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:36.319 In Parliament. 658 00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:37.920 I wanted to bring this up because I was wondering 659 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.799 what you thought about the tensions in this new kind 660 00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:44.720 of regime, the Burnham regime, between those who you know, 661 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.920 very taken a very clear position on Israel and wh 662 00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:50.400 should happen in terms of Israel and those in his 663 00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:55.240 in his cabinet who are up for having old ladies 664 00:32:55.240 --> 00:33:00.599 locked up, for holding signs, for supporting a group that's 665 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:03.759 been prescribed in otherwords, Palistine action, whose prescription they think 666 00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:06.799 of as wrong for you know, they're not themselves necessarily 667 00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:09.480 even supporting that group. They're just like they're opposed to 668 00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:11.559 the prescription for lots of different reasons. 669 00:33:11.960 --> 00:33:14.200 So I think there's a there's a whole bunch of 670 00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:17.519 things to like unpack the I mean the one. The 671 00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:19.720 one is first of all, you know, unfortunately the people 672 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:23.000 that they've put up in that video are very junior. 673 00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:27.279 The only exception is louse Haye, who's obviously it's very powerful, very. 674 00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:30.799 Very very significant job and obviously like a very close 675 00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:32.119 figure to burn. 676 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:36.160 And but the rest are you know, rarely not. This 677 00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:38.559 is the sort of third level minosterialppointments that they don't 678 00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:40.440 care carry. Do you want to wait, and they're very 679 00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:42.559 much they were. They were released in the third level 680 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.200 of third round of announcements as as I think pretty 681 00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:47.759 much have already sort of understood them to be a 682 00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:49.680 sobs to the left to be like, you're not being 683 00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:55.559 entirely excluded the balance of actually his cabinet is very 684

00:33:55.640 --> 00:33:58.319 much not reflective of a pro Palestine position at all. 685 00:33:58.359 --> 00:34:01.200 And like the you know, almost everybody in his cabinet 686 00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:04.920 right now were people who who've defended and supported the 687 00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:06.680 you know, both the perscussion of pot us An action 688 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:09.039 and have said pretty awful things on israelm So, I mean, 689 00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:13.199 you know, regardless of where streeting is bizarre text to 690 00:34:13.239 --> 00:34:16.119 Peter Mandelsson, and he said the ICJ judgment and the 691 00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:18.840 i CJ process was a distraction, right, this is this 692 00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:19.960 is something that he said. 693 00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:22.960 I think when recently asked about all crimes here, you know, 694 00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:27.119 committed by Israel, he said something like, yes, we've got 695 00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:28.679 to keep our friends in line when they when they 696 00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:29.199 step out of. 697 00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:31.599 Absolutely ridiculous that that, you know, as he's come in 698 00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:32.480 defense secretary. 699 00:34:32.679 --> 00:34:34.360 So my sense is. 700 00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:39.800 Is that people who would be presenting a countervailing opinion 701 00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.760 are relatively marginal in his cabinet. But that's not to 702 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.519 suggest that there's other people's cabin like Chibanomo who aren't 703 00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:47.440 going to be feeling local pressure because you know, she 704 00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:49.320 might lose so seating, so might where streeting be came 705 00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.840 around this issue. But I do think that there is 706 00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:54.679 this is this is where Burnham is going to be bad, 707 00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:56.639 Like this is where I'm going to break it to you, like, 708 00:34:56.679 --> 00:34:58.639 this is where Burnham is going to be bad because 709 00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:01.760 this is this is this is the decision that he's made. 710 00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:03.960 This is the way that he's decided to govern. And 711 00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:06.159 I think it's pretty clear the way that he's done this. 712 00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:09.400 He's basically said, I'm going to have like a pretty 713 00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:15.360 forward looking progressive domestic agenda. I'm going to touch nothing internationally. 714 00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:17.559 I'm going to do exactly what's been that upens at 715 00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:20.760 this point in time. I'm going to do, uh, you know, 716 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:22.920 I'm going to increase defense spending even that the disasters 717 00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:25.559 have increased defense spending. I'm going to actually increase our 718 00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:30.320 interdependence with America through defense spending, even though obviously a 719 00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:33.199 shocking idea from a security perspective. I am not going 720 00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:35.320 to significantly increase the amount of money we spend on 721 00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:38.840 climate change. I'm actually even going to you know, reallocate 722 00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:41.599 some money that's supposed to be used for international fight 723 00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:44.320 against climate change to domestic priorities, which is one of 724 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:46.639 the first ways that he funded one of his new announcements. 725 00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:51.960 And because you know, inside the Labor Party and inside 726 00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.400 their strategizing, you know, segmentation analysis is a big part 727 00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:59.239 of how they perceive the world. And there was recently 728 00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:05.239 a a you know, another policy debate around you know, 729 00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:07.599 how does the layor party win the next election. And 730 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.840 effectively what's been happened that the standard Labor Party segmentation 731 00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:14.360 analysis of Britain separates Britain to six to eight segments 732 00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:18.360 and then they pretty relentlessly target one or two segments 733 00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:20.639 who are they call voting will win them an election, 734 00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:24.119 especially now that the whole elections becomes a fractured and 735 00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:26.519 I think it's very clear that they have watched segment 736 00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:29.280 they've chosen, They've chosen the segment that's represented by Makeerfield 737 00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.400 and that's what used to be called in segmentation, unless 738 00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:34.719 it's given different names, one of which is is the 739 00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:37.960 patriotic left. Now this is people who are older, who 740 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:41.360 wipe their working class. They're generally not you know, quite 741 00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:43.440 a few of them are owned a small property. They're 742 00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:45.880 not like you know, they're not destined by any they're 743 00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:48.039 not poor by any means. But you know, they will 744 00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:51.719 obviously have felt the cost of living impact on their 745 00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:53.800 abilities to live their lives to the fullest. Will be 746 00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:57.440 experiencing a lot of holidays and like a lot of luxuries, 747 00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:01.960 and increasingly, like some foreclosing the of like the sense 748 00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:04.239 of their life and the life of the generation blism 749 00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:07.880 is getting better. But this is also a segment that's 750 00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:11.239 that's open to ideals like it's open to the idea 751

00:37:11.239 --> 00:37:14.280 of having like a nationalized post office and a nationalized 752 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:14.880 rail service. 753 00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:16.480 They're like big state interventions. 754 00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:18.719 They have a fondness for their n hgest of a 755 00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:24.039 fondness for the post war settlement, but they aren't particularly that, 756 00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:27.280 you know, they weak on issues on immigration. They're not 757 00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:31.880 pro immigration generally speaking, although it won't necessarily determine their thinking. 758 00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:33.360 But this is what the poling suggests that it's not 759 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:36.800 high their list of priorities and international based on Highland's 760 00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:39.440 so priorities and I feel like, but what burnhamers basically 761 00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:41.320 do is he's done a deal. He's basically said, well, 762 00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:46.480 what I'll do is establishment the political filmment. Let me 763 00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:49.800 do some radical stuff domestically, and I will make sure 764 00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:53.119 that all the other stuff runs as it does for 765 00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:55.960 the next two to three years, probably for the next 766 00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:58.000 five to ten years. And you can really see that 767 00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:00.440 with a defense spending, you know that they're is going 768 00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:02.679 to be a massive wratch to being up of defense spending, 769 00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:05.840 which is really problematic because eight percent of all UK 770 00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.000 imports come from Israel. Becomes a defense export. So when 771 00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:11.079 you're saying we're going to be increasing defense bending, where 772 00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:13.599 you actually saying the underlying messages, we increase the amount 773 00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:15.920 of money we need to be sending into ISRAELI actually 774 00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:19.079 to Alberton has ready defense systems, right, So this is 775 00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:22.360 where he's going to be bad, I think, and I 776 00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:29.079 think that beyond a couple of very small sort of 777 00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:32.280 I'm a bit sorry, but rueful, it's not going to 778 00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:34.159 change fundament Can I just say one more thing? 779 00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:35.639 I know we're speaking of a long time, no go on. 780 00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:39.039 I get so pissed off politicians who say that it's 781 00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:41.760 up to the course to decide it. Literally, isn't it 782 00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:44.599 literally isn't for the course to decide our arms export 783 00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:46.159 magime is run on the risk base, on our risk 784 00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:48.800 based principle. It is up to our government and it's 785 00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:50.719 actually up to the departments and the Wisness Force to 786 00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:53.280 make a determination about whether the arms are being sold 787 00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:55.960 according to a risk profile. Is there a risk that 788 00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.760 these arms are going to be used in war crimes? 789 00:38:57.840 --> 00:38:59.599 Are they going to be used to be used an 790 00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:03.519 international conflicts? That is set within our own arms trade regulations. 791 00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:06.400 It would be mad to be a situation where you 792 00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:08.239 had to wait for a quart away another because then 793 00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:09.639 you'd basically be like, well it was going to say 794 00:39:09.639 --> 00:39:11.280 an arms to everybody and then find our ten years 795 00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:12.800 too late. Of course, we have to operate on a 796 00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:15.599 risk principle. You can't do any forward planning or licensing 797 00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:17.800 or if you don't operate on a risk principle like 798 00:39:18.199 --> 00:39:20.000 this is this is not the way government works. 799 00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:22.719 And actually, if you wanted, if you wanted a court 800 00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:25.480 to have said something, the ICJ did say that there 801 00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:26.599 was a risk of genocide. 802 00:39:26.679 --> 00:39:29.559 Yes, so you and not just that there's a risk 803 00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:32.159 of genocide, but that you are now bound to prevent it. Exactly, 804 00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:34.079 you've got to you've got to take steps to do it, 805 00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:37.280 not just nothing. You've actually got to prevent it. And 806 00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:39.199 that's the key word, to prevent. You've got to be 807 00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:43.000 taking active steps to prevent, to actually give you know, 808 00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:47.199 some substance to what the IC gas say. What the 809 00:39:47.239 --> 00:39:49.199 ACE is actually saying is you need to go in 810 00:39:49.239 --> 00:39:52.079 there and stop is role doing this. That's your duty. 811 00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:54.679 Whether it's people, or whether it's shutting off the economy 812 00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:57.039 or whether it's putting in sanctions, you actually have a 813 00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:58.480 duty to do it. 814 00:39:58.760 --> 00:39:58.880 Now. 815 00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:00.280 Of course, the problem is the ice jairs going to 816 00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:02.920 take ten exactly, take it all over by the time 817 00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:10.280 the ice gets itself. So sadly I think that I 818 00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:12.599 think on this stuff Burnham is going to be disappointing. 819 00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.119 It doesn't mean necessarily mean you can't be pressured, but 820 00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:19.920 I do also think in sort of the broader political filament,

821 00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:22.079 this is the sort of place that the Greens to 822 00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:25.320 Progressives can draw like a very clear line of difference. 823 00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:27.760 And this is where we stand on foreign policy. We 824 00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:30.920 take an ethical approach to it. Our foreig policy approach 825 00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:32.960 is based on human security and that's what we care about. 826 00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:35.199 And as a result of the position that you're predicting, 827 00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:37.639 which I think you're probably right about. They will find 828 00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:39.840 it easier to take seats off of Labor in those 829 00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:41.000 areas that. 830 00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:42.079 That burn will essentially abandon. 831 00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:45.840 I think that's I think that's accurate, certainly in the 832 00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:47.880 short term. I mean, i'd imagine that Burnham and his 833 00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:52.599 allies have like a plan for reconstituting the Labor Party. 834 00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:55.840 I don't think it's going to work on its current trajectory, 835 00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:59.840 because I think you need to do more to re 836 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.920 canies Cosmo politicism and Britain as like as a real 837 00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.199 force in international solidarity, as a real force for our politics. 838 00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:10.559 My sense is that for this next electoral cycle, the 839 00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:15.480 Labor Party will effectively not give up. Will probably internally 840 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:17.280 have a sense that they're going to lose places at Bristol, 841 00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:19.519 They're going to lose big parts of London, They're going 842 00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:23.280 to lose you know, Norwich, They're going to lose very 843 00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:26.480 substantial parts of Birmingham. But they will reconstitute some of 844 00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:30.119 their voting coalition outside of Yeah, that's right, and that's 845 00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:32.679 I think from a national perspective, it's a good thing. 846 00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:37.400 I think because all of this suggests that the one 847 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.880 thing that I think we are going to have to 848 00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:43.079 give Burnham credit for, even though I'm criticizing him here 849 00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:45.639 is I think if he does the domestic stuff well, 850 00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:52.440 he then reduces the structural conditions that produce reform, and 851 00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:54.559 I think that could be in a major achievement, and 852 00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:56.880 then that generally brings all of our politics more left 853 00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:59.360 wing and more humane and more interesting and more. 854 00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:01.440 Normal. 855 00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:01.760 Yeah. 856 00:42:01.760

--> 00:42:03.480 I mean, that's going to be a reforms fear, isn't it. 857 00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:05.679 That is what they are going to do, and in 858 00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:07.800 fact looks like they have been to some extent making 859 00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:10.639 them in roads, even though reform has been very very 860 00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:13.559 well destroying itself in the last few few months of 861 00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:15.320 ven and may have got a bit lucky there. The 862 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:19.000 tiny Spanish territory of Cuta shares a border with Morocco 863 00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:21.880 in North Africa, and on Thursday a record number of 864 00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:23.719 migrants swam from Morocco. 865 00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:24.119 To the enclave. 866 00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:28.159 Spanish officials have estimated that some forty nine thousand people 867 00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:31.239 swam around barriers to the territory, which consists largely of 868 00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:33.599 a single city. Given that the current population of the 869 00:42:33.639 --> 00:42:37.360 region is just eighty thousand people, that's an overwhelming number. 870 00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:41.679 The migrants were mostly young Moroccan men, but included women, children, 871 00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:45.000 and non Moroccans. At least fifty seven people have died 872 00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:49.519 attempting to enter Queta, according to the territory's president. Spain's 873 00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:52.199 Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez has called it an attack and 874 00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:56.679 a violation of Spain's territorial integrity. As a part of Spain, 875 00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:59.119 Queta is also part of the EU, that led EU 876 00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:03.920 Commissioner condlay And to say this, the images coming from 877 00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:06.559 Queta are unacceptable. We cannot allow anyone to come to 878 00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:09.880 our union without abiding by our rules. Dangerous crossings must 879 00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:13.559 stop immediately, Smuggling networks must be dismantled, and returns must 880 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:16.480 be swift as our rules allow. I task two commissioners 881 00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:19.920 to support to control the situation. Returns have taken place 882 00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:22.960 throughout today, with thirty seven thousand people returned to Morocco 883 00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:26.840 by this afternoon, according to Spanish authorities. Now what triggered 884 00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:29.119 this sudden rush of people from Morocco isn't known, but 885 00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:34.039 The Financial Times has reported this. The influx in the 886 00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:36.480 coast Or Enclave, which has a population of about eighty 887 00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:39.559 three thousand and is hemmed in by Morocco led analyst 888 00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:42.480 to suggest the Moroccan authorities had deliberately enabled the

stream 889 00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:46.519 of migrants. Queta and Spain's other North African enclave, Malia, 890 00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:49.840 have long been sources of tension with Morocco, and less 891 00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:52.760 see the threat of migrants overwhelming Spain's enclaves by land 892 00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:55.199 or sea as a key source of Rabout's leverage over 893 00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:58.800 at Madrid. Thousands of people spawned storm brother Queta in 894 00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:01.760 twenty twenty one after a diplomatic riff between Spain and 895 00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:06.360 Morocco over Western Sahara, a territory claimed by Rabat. That 896 00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:10.000 doesn't explain, however, why, if true, Morocco would have enabled 897 00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:13.719 this mass journey of migrants at this particular moment. But 898 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:16.639 in recent months, the US has also gotten involved in 899 00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:20.519 the dispute. In May, Congressman Marioda's Balat, a key ally 900 00:44:20.599 --> 00:44:23.199 of U Secree of State Marco Rubio, told a Spanish 901 00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:27.199 newspaper that neither territory were in the geographical territory of Spain, 902 00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:32.719 but rather of Morocco. Better not mention Alaska, Puerto Rico 903 00:44:32.920 --> 00:44:35.079 or Hawaii, although of course he's not wrong in terms 904 00:44:35.079 --> 00:44:38.639 of geography, but those remarks were seen by some as 905 00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:42.119 revenge for Spain's increasingly defined attitude to the US. Actions 906 00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:45.760 that irritated the Americans included denying US forces involved in 907 00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:48.280 the country's illegal war on Iran use of bases on 908 00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:51.760 Spanish territory and culminated in Spain closing its s by 909 00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:55.800 S base to US military flights. Spanish ministers, including Prime 910 00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:59.039 Minister Sanchez, have repeatedly called the war illegal and immoral. 911 00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:02.400 Israel is also on very bad terms of Spain after 912 00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:05.320 Sanchoz described the country's actions in Gaza as a genocide, 913 00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.079 imposed the total arms blockade, and called for Israel to 914 00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:11.599 be banned from international sport as a result. Israel's ambassador 915 00:45:11.679 --> 00:45:13.960 to the UN, Danny Danon, has also had a go 916 00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:19.400 posting this Spain, which never misses an opportunity to lecture Israel, 917 00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:21.880 has the clearest state of emergency in Quetta following the 918 00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:26.239 crisis over its immigration policy. Maybe before it continues lecturing us, 919 00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:28.599 it's time it explained to the world why it still 920 00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:34.840 maintains colonial enclaves in Africa. I think colonial enclaves are 921 00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:37.320 probably wrong, but I think you can still have colonial 922 00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:40.239 enclaves and criticize a country which has killed tens of 923 00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:46.000 thousands of children's children from the air. So sorry, Danny, 924 00:45:46.119 --> 00:45:49.599 not buying it. Morocco has continually asserted its claims to 925 00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:52.480 the two territories held by Spain, and when you look 926 00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:54.960 at the map you can see why. With Queta sitting 927 00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:58.880 about twenty kilometers from Spain. From Spain at Morocco's northernmost 928 00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:02.760 point that geographical distance, the British right are having a 929 00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:05.760 field day. Jack Davey in The Telegraph has declared the 930 00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:09.400 Spanish left responsible for the invasion, linking it to Sanchez's 931 00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:13.800 amnesty for undocumented migrants announced earlier this year. Meanwhile, GB 932 00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:16.760 News tried to spook its audience by describing the event 933 00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:21.840 as sixty thousand migrants storming the Spanish border. Don't know 934 00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:26.440 how much geography gb News audiences. No, I didn't know 935 00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:30.679 about Queta before today. That's a pretty incendiary way of 936 00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:34.800 describing the matter. This was Navarre's Aaron Besani on that channel. 937 00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:38.119 But in the case of these particular endcloves, they are 938 00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:40.079 in Africa. I think this is really important to say 939 00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:43.159 they are on the land mass of Africa, and I 940 00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:47.960 would submit that if you have territory like that, this 941 00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:51.440 will happen. Imagine again for British audience, Imagine if Gibraltar 942 00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:54.840 wasn't tied to Spain but was tied to Afghanistan, we 943 00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:57.280 would have lots of Afkhans trying to go there and 944 00:46:57.320 --> 00:46:59.599 then trying to get British citizenship. I mean, that's basically 945 00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:02.519 you know, two plus two equals four logic. So there's 946 00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:05.280 a problem for Spain which goes back many, many years. 947 00:47:05.559 --> 00:47:08.360 It's a problem for governments of the right of the left, 948 00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:09.119 the center right, or. 949 00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:09.840 The center left. 950 00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:13.000 What I'd add is it is different in so much 951 00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:16.079 as and it's unique inso much as these aren't refugees. 952 00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:19.400 Morocco is a relatively successful country. 953 00:47:19.639 --> 00:47:22.159 So the argument's being made for them to enter

Spain, 954 00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:25.039 let's get a citizenship. Aren't the same that you would 955 00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:27.679 have had Cassiria in Germany in twenty fifteen, or four 956 00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:32.280 Iranians or Afghans coming to Britain in the last ten years. 957 00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:34.079 Morocco's quite a successful country. 958 00:47:34.119 --> 00:47:36.480 And also what was mentioned there about them being young men, 959 00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:39.000 they are. You can see that there is no ambiguity 960 00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:42.280 here that is overwhelmingly young, healthy men. By the way, 961 00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:44.559 many which I'm sure want to make a life for 962 00:47:44.599 --> 00:47:46.559 themselves and work really hard and just do really well. 963 00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:48.559 They want opportunities to fit young men. You can see that. 964 00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:52.719 So it's a really really unique situation. And you know, 965 00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:57.079 unless Spain pitches this territory. I think Queta is about 966 00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:00.760 sixteen square kilometers, it's very very small, and they've had 967 00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:02.360 it for like four or five hundred years. And not 968 00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:04.559 just that they should do that, but unless they do 969 00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:06.440 do that, I don't really understand how you stop it. 970 00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:08.320 Well. 971 00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:11.559 I mean, like one way of describing this situation is 972 00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:16.719 Moroccans going to Morocco and you know, you know, national 973 00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:19.440 sovereignty and all of that. You know, this is clearly 974 00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:23.360 just a tiny enclave that Spain has for strategic reasons. 975 00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:25.840 It's you know, in a very important part whether we're terraining. 976 00:48:25.960 --> 00:48:30.000 The Strait of Gibraltar is narrow, but you know, it's 977 00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:31.599 not an invasion of Spain, is I know that there 978 00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:33.599 are rules that mean that you know, like people manage 979 00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:39.440 to get to the mainland, you know, the the borderless 980 00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:42.280 nature of Europe means that you know, I mean, there's 981 00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:45.480 no there's no sense, there's no as far as I've seen, 982 00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:47.199 there's no indication that that's what people in fact want 983 00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:50.639 to do, and you know, being moved back out of 984 00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:52.679 Morocco into Morocco pretty quickly. 985 00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:53.519 Well, there's no sense that. 986 00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:57.159 Well so the first of all, like just just before 987 00:48:57.159 --> 00:48:58.920 we came on, there's been new figures being released about 988 00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:01.239 the numbers of returns. And also there seems to be 989 00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:04.760 depending on the source, you read, a lot of discussion 990 00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:07.760 and the lack of clarity about the number of people 991 00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:10.320 who actually went over the board. So all the reporting 992 00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:14.159 says local estimates suggests sixty thousand. What local estimates the Spanish, 993 00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:16.360 the Spanish government have said it's forty nine. 994 00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:18.880 Thousand people crossed over, and. 995 00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:22.679 Of which they say about you know, forty five forty 996 00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:26.159 six thousand people have already returned. And it basically seems 997 00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:30.480 to be a message had been sent that basically if 998 00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:33.519 through people might listen also of other different people. But basically, 999 00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:36.119 you come to Queta, then there is a possibility that 1000 00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:38.119 there's going to be the amnesty that have been applied 1001 00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:40.079 to other migrants, you might be able to come into 1002 00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:41.880 the EU, there might be some sort of and basically 1003 00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:43.880 it's not true. People found out wasn't true and they 1004 00:49:43.880 --> 00:49:47.920 went back home basically and it seems to me like 1005 00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:50.639 there's a lot of people trying to make and draw 1006 00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:56.360 political inferences are way beyond justified. But what's actually happened. 1007 00:49:56.400 --> 00:49:58.199 So one thing that happened literally against before we came 1008 00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:00.480 on air is that Italy a suspense that a cheng 1009 00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:01.519 and agreement. 1010 00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:02.920 As I said it was going to. 1011 00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.679 This is this is incredibly stupid to I mean, that's 1012 00:50:08.679 --> 00:50:11.400 a they share a land border, like they're none of 1013 00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:14.079 these people who have gone to Quita, have crossed, have 1014 00:50:14.079 --> 00:50:14.559 have then. 1015 00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:18.280 Swam. You can't them that straight. 1016 00:50:18.760 --> 00:50:21.199 There's not like an army of boats that people have 1017 00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:23.079 gotten onto and then gone onto the mainland and then 1018 00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:24.400 are heading for the border of Italy. 1019 00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:26.280 This feels like just. 1020 00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:32.559 It feels like there's a degree of internal EU dispute 1021 00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:35.760 that certainly you countries do more right wing and have 1022 00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:39.119 more populous leaders. Look at Spain and they don't particularly 1023 00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:42.400 like their approach to immigration, and there's been like scare 1024 00:50:42.480

--> 00:50:47.039 mongering in presses like Italy in Czechoslovakia around what does 1025 00:50:47.079 --> 00:50:49.519 this mean for the EU? And this is a political 1026 00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:51.320 weapon for them to be using. But actually, you know, 1027 00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:54.199 even though it's very odd and it's awful that you know, 1028 00:50:54.239 --> 00:50:55.800 one thing has been lost in the coverage, it seems 1029 00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:58.119 to me, is that people have died, and that's awful. 1030 00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:02.559 Fifty seven people die, which is terrible, and obviously, you know, 1031 00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:06.159 the people who've caused that to happen should be held 1032 00:51:06.199 --> 00:51:09.119 to I can't but this idea that this suddenly being 1033 00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:12.840 like Spain has suddenly created this like mass immigration panic 1034 00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:13.719 in Europe as nonsense. 1035 00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:15.400 Yeah, it's totally nonsense. 1036 00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:17.239 I mean I was I was more drawn to like 1037 00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:21.320 the sort of State Department operation angle angle here. And 1038 00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:24.199 it's not just because of that congressman. It's in the 1039 00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:29.039 American Enterprise Institute just earlier this this this year, this guy, 1040 00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:31.840 I think Michael Rubin was writing about like literally, this 1041 00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:35.199 is what Morocco should do. It should use bulldoze as 1042 00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:37.400 it should send people over, It should reclaim these territories. 1043 00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:39.960 I think there is such a you know, in the 1044 00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:42.960 in the in the US rights, such an antagonism towards Spain. 1045 00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:45.719 It's not just for like the military stuff, the bases 1046 00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:51.239 and the airspace over Iran, or it's you know, condemnation 1047 00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:54.119 of Israel. It is also because of that Amnesty project. 1048 00:51:54.199 --> 00:51:56.239 You know, if you remember that document that the State 1049 00:51:56.239 --> 00:51:59.239 Department released last year about you know, it's sort of 1050 00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:04.960 strategic plans for you know, it's strategy where the folks 1051 00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:11.239 on Europe was cultural change mildly and where it was 1052 00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:14.480 you know, this is like the most important issue facing Europe, 1053 00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:18.719 and Spain is really kind of modeling the opposite of that. 1054 00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:23.039 Yeah, and I mean that document was mad, by the way, 1055 00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:26.519 totally like the most like pulled out of Elo Musk's brain, 1056 00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:32.880 you know, clash Civilizations dance and which I mean, if 1057 00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:35.199 I remember, he basically said that Europe is no longer 1058 00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:37.519 rety partner because it's not white enough, basically, but that 1059 00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:40.280 was pretty basically europe civilization is collapsing because they've got 1060 00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:43.800 too many immigrants. And the interesting thing is like, actually 1061 00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:46.400 the experience in Spain has been quite interesting because they 1062 00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:48.920 take a different approach on all sorts of different things. 1063 00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:52.199 They're actually they're one of the few EU countries that 1064 00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:56.280 it is experiencing like significant economic growth and people. 1065 00:52:56.119 --> 00:52:58.880 Are asking why immigration. 1066 00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:01.480 It's actually like and the acknowledge that in the amnesty 1067 00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:03.599 he said, this is why we're doing it. We're doing 1068 00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:07.000 it because these people will grow our economy over time. 1069 00:53:07.159 --> 00:53:10.159 Yeah, it was very clear about it at Sanchez and. 1070 00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:12.440 And you know, basically what it's done is it's shown 1071 00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:15.559 we're also living in this very bizarre time that basicity 1072 00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:17.679 Europe is like going to be undergoing like like a 1073 00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:21.519 pretty profound demographic crisis in Spain. Is basically said, yeah, 1074 00:53:21.559 --> 00:53:23.320 we are going to go through a demographic crisis. We're 1075 00:53:23.320 --> 00:53:25.440 going to drop some of the racism that stops us 1076 00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:28.599 from actually dealing with us in the pragmatic terms, and 1077 00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:30.639 we are going to have immigrants and we're going to 1078 00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:33.360 empower them and give them the ability to build lives 1079 00:53:33.400 --> 00:53:37.880 and they will generally speaking, knuckle down and they'll work hard, 1080 00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:40.599 and they'll advance the economy. I mean generally speaking, you 1081 00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:45.199 can't have you know this, I do wonder and this 1082 00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:47.119 is a random straight thought that I've had, So let's 1083 00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:49.239 let's throw it out there. That might be just total nonsense, 1084 00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:53.800 right as a like we'd whether like neoliberalism has like 1085 00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:59.000 destroyed the understanding of labor, Like it's like understand like 1086 00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:01.519 it's destroyed the concept of like you don't have economic 1087 00:54:01.559 --> 00:54:04.360 growth up people like fundamentally, Like I was, I was 1088 00:54:04.360 --> 00:54:07.440 thinking about this the other day because John Heally was 1089 00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:12.360 giving a press a press conference and he said, you know,

1090 00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:14.079 in it was to business people and he said, I'm 1091 00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:15.679 so I'm so glad to see you or hear you 1092 00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:17.599 guys are the wealth creators. And I was like, I 1093 00:54:17.679 --> 00:54:19.880 was so furious by that statement. I was like, no, 1094 00:54:20.039 --> 00:54:23.239 they're literally not the wealth creators. And you're the labor party. 1095 00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:25.480 It used to be doctored in the layor party the 1096 00:54:25.519 --> 00:54:28.800 people who create wealth as labor. That's actually who creates wealth. 1097 00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:32.840 And it feels like people have lost sight of that 1098 00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:35.480 that you you do. You know, fundamentally, all economic growth 1099 00:54:35.559 --> 00:54:37.840 is based on human endeavor until such time was replaced 1100 00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:42.239 by robots. And it's a different discussion altogether. But you know, 1101 00:54:43.639 --> 00:54:47.880 we've got this idea that you could grow an economy indefinitely, 1102 00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:50.639 which you probably shouldn't be doing anyway with our people, 1103 00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:52.440 with our young people, the people who are going to 1104 00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:55.360 be working, and we're not having even in the UK, 1105 00:54:55.559 --> 00:54:58.519 like actually serious mature conversations about like, oh, well, if 1106 00:54:58.519 --> 00:55:01.559 we're not creating the conditions for people to be having 1107 00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:05.119 lots of children and we are allowing on immigration, then 1108 00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:08.880 maybe from a working class and from a class aurdarity perspective, 1109 00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:11.320 if you're going to be bringing loads of people to 1110 00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:13.159 work for you, and they're not give them any rights, 1111 00:55:13.159 --> 00:55:15.480 which is basically what shabano moda is doing. You were 1112 00:55:15.519 --> 00:55:18.840 going to be affecting everybody's class position in a negative way. 1113 00:55:19.280 --> 00:55:21.920 What Spain is basically done is, you know, they attacked 1114 00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:25.360 this is all they're running like a las f faire economy, 1115 00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:28.480 you know, allowing amergacy. What they've actually effectively done is 1116 00:55:28.480 --> 00:55:31.079 they've said to a million people, you now have workers' rights, 1117 00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:34.239 You've now been regularized, you now can't be abused by 1118 00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:36.599 your employer. That's actually what their process does. It's not 1119 00:55:36.639 --> 00:55:39.079 actually just about you are not Spanish, it's actually, now 1120 00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:41.440 you have Spanish rights, you have rights under EU law. 1121 00:55:41.719 --> 00:55:43.880 You can't be working sixteen eighteen hours a day and 1122 00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:46.960 undermining the wages of older people here. And that's actually 1123 00:55:47.039 --> 00:55:50.000 the way you bring people onside and immigration debate. 1124 00:55:50.079 --> 00:55:51.079 Yeah, I think that's right. 1125 00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:54.840 It's interesting the thing you say about neilberalism and the 1126 00:55:55.159 --> 00:55:57.800 notion of labor. I've had like a thought recently from 1127 00:55:57.800 --> 00:55:59.960 the other side, which is neoliberalism is also like convinced 1128 00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:02.800 everyone that governments can't do anything anymore. It's like this 1129 00:56:02.840 --> 00:56:04.239 feature of like what I like to call like the 1130 00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:06.079 clapped right. You know, used to think of like the 1131 00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:09.559 right in politics and somehow being like the engine of 1132 00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:12.920 innovation and whatever. And now every right wing person is like, 1133 00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:14.559 you suggest though, maybe we could do this, and they're 1134 00:56:14.599 --> 00:56:17.599 just like, we can't do anything. And really, like any 1135 00:56:17.599 --> 00:56:20.199 corporations can do these things. Companies can do the things, 1136 00:56:20.239 --> 00:56:21.519 but like, we can't do it. 1137 00:56:21.559 --> 00:56:23.679 First of all, corporations can't do most things they're going 1138 00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:26.159 to do. Yeah, but you know, I've had this conversation. 1139 00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:27.599 This is going to be a bit of a weird tangent. 1140 00:56:27.639 --> 00:56:29.320 But have you ever read The Three Body Problem? 1141 00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:29.719 Yes? 1142 00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:33.559 Right, okay, now, very interesting series of books, sci fi books. 1143 00:56:33.639 --> 00:56:35.559 The thing that really struck me about I was like, 1144 00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:36.119 what's it going to be? 1145 00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:36.199 Like? 1146 00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:38.679 I've never actually read like a Chinese novel maybe aby Tannel. 1147 00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:41.079 He really doesn't it, it's like and the thing that 1148 00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:43.679 like is actually the most sci fi aspect of that 1149 00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:46.079 novel is like it goes through all these different phases 1150 00:56:46.079 --> 00:56:49.000 of like human endeavor as it plans for this particular 1151 00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:52.199 there's in engagements of how we're going to deal with aliens, 1152 00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:55.440 and there's multiple different human responses and every human response 1153 00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:58.639 is like, we built amazing underground cities that look like 1154 00:56:58.679 --> 00:56:59.679 trees and leaves. 1155 00:56:59.719 --> 00:57:01.159 And I was like, well, on a. 1156 00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:04.320 Second, where is your belief And it's caerly coming from 1157 00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:05.880 I was like, oh,

this is like a Chinese author, 1158 00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:08.440 Chinese perspective. Actually you can do anything, you can do 1159 00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:10.000 any Actually the state is going to build these are 1160 00:57:10.039 --> 00:57:13.039 massive underground cities with leaves and trees and stuff like that. 1161 00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:16.400 And it made me think like there really has been 1162 00:57:16.440 --> 00:57:20.320 the sense and it was a it was a created sense, 1163 00:57:20.360 --> 00:57:22.719 a manufactured sense, and the state is bad at doing stuff, 1164 00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:25.000 you know, and basically. 1165 00:57:24.760 --> 00:57:25.800 You mean it's sometimes bad. 1166 00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:28.440 I mean the famous example there was always used to 1167 00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:32.880 defend your liberalism was the Spanish phone network, the Mexican 1168 00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:35.719 phone network where which is a nationalized phone network, where 1169 00:57:35.719 --> 00:57:37.599 it took you two years to get a phone connection, 1170 00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:40.679 and that was always held up as like this shows 1171 00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:43.960 you why. But like monopolies are bad. Why you know, 1172 00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:46.599 if you have five different phone networks, then you know 1173 00:57:46.639 --> 00:57:49.199 you'll get better services, which might be true for certain 1174 00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:51.440 types of things, it's very much not true. For water, 1175 00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:54.679 it's very much not true for like long term like 1176 00:57:54.760 --> 00:57:58.039 infrastructure development. It's it's certainly not true, for like doing 1177 00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:01.599 anything that might be good for humanity that doesn't necessarily 1178 00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:05.519 turn a profit, like build the internet, right, Like, but 1179 00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:08.480 I think you're right. There is the sense that maybe 1180 00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:11.159 that's why Burnham is so interesting as a character, because 1181 00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:12.719 he thinks the state can do things well. So he's 1182 00:58:12.719 --> 00:58:15.039 the first person who's basically said the computer says yes. 1183 00:58:14.960 --> 00:58:18.159 Yeah, exactly exactly, and like, actually, that's that's right. 1184 00:58:18.320 --> 00:58:22.239 Hates it because they're so sort of you know, convinced 1185 00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:25.599 of the absolute impossibility of anything ever changing. 1186 00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:27.840 But also they will also at the same time this 1187 00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:30.239 is the hypocrisy in like the we're not the hypocrisy, 1188 00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:32.360 but certainly that this juncture of the thinking. So they'll 1189 00:58:32.360 --> 00:58:35.320 also then hank back so and imagine Great Britain, which 1190 00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:37.920 is all about the state, like the things will be 1191 00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:39.800 thinking about it is like our response to World War two, 1192 00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:42.920 or you know, we only we only privatized our defense 1193 00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:45.440 industry in the nineteen eighties, which is a disaster, by 1194 00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:47.440 the way, we should never have done that for sorts 1195 00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:49.920 of different reasons. But like the war was about the 1196 00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:52.199 Second World that's state driven. If the NHS is a 1197 00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:56.400 state in city after World War two, greatest boomer living standards. 1198 00:58:56.880 --> 00:59:00.679 The state basically nationalized like sixty percent of the economy 1199 00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:04.159 and built amazing, amazing, amazing things. I just feel like 1200 00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:08.199 I remember seeing something on I was actually it was 1201 00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:11.840 Rifker Brown Navarro who did that article which that was 1202 00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:16.320 so interesting about finished trains and it went like totally 1203 00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:18.880 vile around the world, and I was like, this is 1204 00:59:18.920 --> 00:59:21.360 what happens with you just the state just spent some 1205 00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:24.840 money on infrastructure, and it was actually speaking to Americans, know, 1206 00:59:25.039 --> 00:59:27.960 like I thought that all trains just had to be 1207 00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:32.039 absolutely awful. Covering like rats looked like a hell escape 1208 00:59:32.679 --> 00:59:34.760 and you know, you basically go into like an underground 1209 00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:38.480 apocalyptic world where you may not emerge, and it's like, 1210 00:59:38.519 --> 00:59:40.079 oh no, you kind actually just build nice things if 1211 00:59:40.119 --> 00:59:41.360 you put some money into it and you have some 1212 00:59:41.840 --> 00:59:42.960 project management skills. 1213 00:59:43.880 --> 00:59:43.960 Right. 1214 00:59:43.960 --> 00:59:45.760 Well, that was all a bit of a tangent, a 1215 00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:48.840 great an interesting one from from from from Christ. 1216 00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:51.199 So let's go on to our our last story. 1217 00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:54.719 Britain's first black woman MP and the mother of the House, 1218 00:59:54.760 --> 00:59:58.000 Dian Abbott, has finally been readmitted to the Labor Party. 1219 00:59:58.239 --> 01:00:00.880 That's after her suspension was lifted by Prime Minister Andy 1220 01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:04.159 Burnham's new Chief Whip, Annalisa Midgeley, following the completion of 1221 01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:08.760 an internal process. So what was Abbot alleged to have done? 1222 01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:11.519 The suspension relates to a letter Abbot published in The 1223 01:00:11.559 --> 01:00:13.960 Observer back in twenty twenty three, in which she claimed 1224 01:00:13.960 --> 01:00:17.480 that Irish people, Jewish

people and travelers suffered from prejudice, which, 1225 01:00:17.480 --> 01:00:20.480 while similar to racism, is not in fact racism, which 1226 01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:23.079 she appeared to define as relating only to skin color. 1227 01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:26.079 Those groups, she said quote are not all their lives 1228 01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:29.920 subject to racism. That letter got her into hot water, 1229 01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:32.559 and though Abbott apologized at the time, then leader of 1230 01:00:32.599 --> 01:00:35.760 the party Kirstarma, withdrew the whip. The whip was then 1231 01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:38.440 restored in May twenty twenty four, and just a month 1232 01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:41.159 before the July general election, Abbot was confirmed as the 1233 01:00:41.159 --> 01:00:43.760 party's candidate for her seat in Hackney North, although it 1234 01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:46.119 was very clear to outsiders that the Parliamentary Labour Party 1235 01:00:46.119 --> 01:00:47.840 were doing everything in their power to stop her from 1236 01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:50.760 being that candidate. But in July last year, Abbot appeared 1237 01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:54.119 on Radio four where, according to some she reiterated the 1238 01:00:54.159 --> 01:00:56.599 points she'd made in the letter and will come to 1239 01:00:56.719 --> 01:01:00.400 that radio interview in just a moment. She also posted 1240 01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:03.360 around the same time and quickly deleted, very quickly deleted, 1241 01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:05.239 a tweet in which she called the idea for the 1242 01:01:05.320 --> 01:01:08.880 Jewish defense Forces. Later that month, she was suspended from 1243 01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:11.280 the Labour Party again, with a senior party official telling 1244 01:01:11.320 --> 01:01:14.519 the paper it was unlikely she'd ever be readmitted to 1245 01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:15.159 the party. 1246 01:01:15.719 --> 01:01:17.719 Well how wrong they were. 1247 01:01:18.039 --> 01:01:22.039 In a statement posted online on Thursday, Abbot said this today, 1248 01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:24.440 following a process conducted in line with party rules and 1249 01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:27.159 approved by the independent review Process, I have been readmitted 1250 01:01:27.199 --> 01:01:29.119 to the Labour Party. I've been issued with a formal 1251 01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:32.599 warning for a tweet I previously posted by inadvertently referring 1252 01:01:32.599 --> 01:01:35.239 to the Israeli Defense Force as the Jewish Defense Force. 1253 01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:37.440 I used wording that conflates the actions of the State 1254 01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:40.119 of Israel with the Jewish community. I am deeply sorry 1255 01:01:40.119 --> 01:01:42.920 for any hurt caused by that conflation and apologize for 1256 01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:45.360 any hurt caused by it. I have been and remain 1257 01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:49.079 a lifelong anti racist and remain deeply committed to opposing 1258 01:01:49.159 --> 01:01:53.000 racism in all of its forms. Now you'd think that 1259 01:01:53.039 --> 01:01:55.920 would be that, except on Thursday night, Newsnight dedicated more 1260 01:01:55.960 --> 01:01:59.119 than half the program to Abbot's readmission to the party 1261 01:01:59.320 --> 01:02:02.079 and it began. The show's political editor Nicholas What revealing 1262 01:02:02.119 --> 01:02:04.400 he had a pretty one sided Labor Party contact book. 1263 01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:08.679 I am hearing unease amongst Labor MPs who are supportive 1264 01:02:08.719 --> 01:02:11.039 of the Jewish community. One of them I spoke to 1265 01:02:11.039 --> 01:02:13.599 and they said, oh my God, for God's sake, they 1266 01:02:13.599 --> 01:02:16.880 said to me. They talked about real disappointment. I spoke 1267 01:02:16.920 --> 01:02:19.639 to another Labor MP. They said to me, this is 1268 01:02:19.840 --> 01:02:23.760 absolutely outrageous. They fear that this could be a step backwards, 1269 01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:27.920 and they were particularly uneasy that this has happened during 1270 01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:31.480 the recess, when there's no ability for Labor MPs to 1271 01:02:31.480 --> 01:02:34.360 walk up to their whip immediately and say what is 1272 01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:37.840 going on there? Amongst members of the Jewish labor movement, 1273 01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:41.880 they are supportive and have confidence in Andy Burnham. But 1274 01:02:41.960 --> 01:02:45.159 one said to me they were worried that this could 1275 01:02:45.199 --> 01:02:48.199 provide a pretext for those on the left, those who 1276 01:02:48.239 --> 01:02:51.519 still have admiration for Jeremy Corbyn, that they could say, 1277 01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:55.480 in the words of this person, let's overcome the injustice 1278 01:02:55.480 --> 01:02:57.559 that was done to people who were removed from the 1279 01:02:57.599 --> 01:03:01.159 Labor Party over allegations of anti't worried about that. I 1280 01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:03.920 was speaking to Dame Louise Elman, of course, her formerly 1281 01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:06.960 prominent Labor MP who left the Labour Party over the 1282 01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:11.400 anti antisemitism allegations and then came back at the invitation 1283 01:03:11.800 --> 01:03:15.360 of Keir Starmer. She was slightly concerned by the wording 1284 01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:18.639 of dian Abbot's statement today. So the adverse finding against 1285 01:03:18.639 --> 01:03:21.559 Diana Abbot which led her to apologize was a tweet 1286 01:03:21.599 --> 01:03:24.679 a year ago in which she described the Israeli Defense 1287 01:03:24.760 --> 01:03:28.519 Forces as the Jewish Defense Forces. She apologized for that 1288 01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:30.559 because there was an adverse finding on that. And then 1289 01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:33.360 this is what Dian Abbot said, I am deeply sorry 1290 01:03:33.400 --> 01:03:37.559 for

any hurt caused by that conflation and apologized for 1291 01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:39.719 any hurt caused by and it was used of the 1292 01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:43.119 word any that Louise Elman picked up on, and Louise Elman, 1293 01:03:43.119 --> 01:03:45.239 this is what she said to me. There have been 1294 01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:48.800 a succession of unfortunate errors in relations to Diane's perception 1295 01:03:48.880 --> 01:03:52.239 of Jewish people. I'm not sure whether she understands the 1296 01:03:52.280 --> 01:03:55.559 mistake she's made, or whether she has found a form 1297 01:03:55.559 --> 01:03:58.679 of words to allow the whip to be restored. 1298 01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:02.280 I guess the implication of that is that the use 1299 01:04:02.320 --> 01:04:06.639 of the any suggests somehow that Abbot doesn't really mean 1300 01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:09.760 it and has just found a kind of formalistic form 1301 01:04:09.800 --> 01:04:11.760 of words which allow allows it to be resorted. I mean, 1302 01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:13.960 I'm not really sure how you can, you know, infer 1303 01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:16.159 that from from the apology. 1304 01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:17.519 It's just the use of the word any her. 1305 01:04:17.519 --> 01:04:19.360 I would also say any of her if I was 1306 01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:22.480 apologizing to somebody. I don't didn't really understand that that 1307 01:04:22.599 --> 01:04:23.199 inference there. 1308 01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:24.400 But what we do know is that. 1309 01:04:24.320 --> 01:04:27.639 Abbot wasn't required to apologize over the remarks she made 1310 01:04:27.679 --> 01:04:31.920 on Radio four about racism, so that was followed when 1311 01:04:31.960 --> 01:04:36.119 she had the whip restored after the original suspension over 1312 01:04:36.159 --> 01:04:38.760 the Observer article. She then a little while later went 1313 01:04:38.800 --> 01:04:40.360 on the radio and made some remarks that we're going 1314 01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:42.840 to come to and she those remarks haven't been any 1315 01:04:43.039 --> 01:04:45.280 that she doesn't seem to have had to apologize for 1316 01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:47.119 those they don't seem to have that doesn't seem to 1317 01:04:47.119 --> 01:04:49.880 be have been a finding about about those remarks on 1318 01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:53.400 the radio program. This was now Phil Rosenberg, president of 1319 01:04:53.480 --> 01:04:56.039 the Board of Jewish Deputies, giving his take. 1320 01:04:56.559 --> 01:04:59.559 Well, I'm very sad and very concerned. I'm sad because 1321 01:04:59.599 --> 01:05:02.480 in many way Dyanabbot is an icon, you know, the 1322 01:05:02.559 --> 01:05:05.199 longest serving female and p the first black female MP 1323 01:05:05.559 --> 01:05:07.840 out of the House, another of the House, and so 1324 01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:10.960 you'd hope that we would find common cause in fighting 1325 01:05:11.079 --> 01:05:14.280 racism in all its different guises. But over and over 1326 01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:17.360 again she's making these statements that are offensive to the 1327 01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:20.800 Jewish community at a time when there is heightened an Semitism, 1328 01:05:20.840 --> 01:05:23.840 deadly anti semitism as we saw at Heaton Park, and 1329 01:05:23.960 --> 01:05:26.639 just completely full statements. You know, when the Nazis developed 1330 01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:30.159 their racial prejudice laws, they were basing them on discrimination 1331 01:05:30.320 --> 01:05:34.199 against African American people under the Jim Crow laws. There 1332 01:05:34.239 --> 01:05:37.440 is Jews and black people should be fighting racism together. 1333 01:05:37.480 --> 01:05:41.199 And unfortunately Dynabber over and over again makes these comments, 1334 01:05:41.239 --> 01:05:43.679 then doubles down on them, and just once again she's 1335 01:05:43.679 --> 01:05:45.519 apologized for the thing, and well she didn't. 1336 01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:47.559 Double down this time. She actually apologized for the tweet. 1337 01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:49.599 Which she apologized, but not for the original thing that 1338 01:05:49.639 --> 01:05:53.440 she had double down for. Right, And I'm just really 1339 01:05:53.480 --> 01:05:56.559 sad and I'm concerned because, as you were implying, we've 1340 01:05:56.559 --> 01:05:58.960 seen this movie before and it doesn't end well for 1341 01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:00.880 the Jewish community. And it does and well, for Labor. 1342 01:06:02.920 --> 01:06:05.360 So that was a reference to Abbot apparently doubling down 1343 01:06:05.440 --> 01:06:08.719 on her comments about her original comments in The Observer 1344 01:06:08.840 --> 01:06:12.280 about racism in that later Radio four interview that also 1345 01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:14.800 became the subject of a heated exchange between News Nights 1346 01:06:14.840 --> 01:06:18.119 presenter Adam Fleming and Labor mp BE Robero adding. 1347 01:06:20.480 --> 01:06:23.920 Something that was said earlier that was wrong talking about 1348 01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:27.400 the interview that she did say that. Diane said in 1349 01:06:27.480 --> 01:06:30.840 the interview that she had done nothing wrong. I think 1350 01:06:31.320 --> 01:06:34.519 this is where some of the issues arise, where sometimes 1351 01:06:35.239 --> 01:06:37.440 you know, the wrong sense is taken out of what 1352 01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:41.280 Diana had said. She didn't say that, and she actually 1353 01:06:41.480 --> 01:06:44.480 reiterated her She said she stood by her apology that 1354 01:06:44.559 --> 01:06:47.599 she made regarding the Observer letter in that same interview. 1355 01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:49.920 So it's very strange that it was reported in that 1356 01:06:49.960 --> 01:06:51.840 way and that you reported it that way today. 1357 01:06:51.840 --> 01:06:54.119 We no just so people are clear. If you go 1358 01:06:54.199 -->

01:06:56.400 back and listen to the GYM Knotty program, which was 1359 01:06:56.440 --> 01:06:59.239 broadcast on Radio four last year, he says to Diane Abbott, 1360 01:06:59.599 --> 01:07:02.119 do you regrets what you said in that letter? And 1361 01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:04.119 she said no, and that is what led to her 1362 01:07:04.159 --> 01:07:05.519 being suspended this latest time. 1363 01:07:05.760 --> 01:07:08.239 The thing is, I think you actually have to listen 1364 01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:12.119 to the whole interview because she I think the way 1365 01:07:12.199 --> 01:07:14.559 in which it was clipped following her saying no, she 1366 01:07:15.159 --> 01:07:18.079 was referring to what he had asked her before whether 1367 01:07:18.199 --> 01:07:20.599 or not she was clear on the fact that people 1368 01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:25.519 experienced racism differently. She also said that she stands by 1369 01:07:25.559 --> 01:07:30.280 the apology that she gave after after having written after 1370 01:07:30.320 --> 01:07:32.480 having written the letter, So I think you have to 1371 01:07:32.519 --> 01:07:36.599 listen to it in its full context and regardless of 1372 01:07:37.440 --> 01:07:40.280 trying to pick at these particular things. Diane has been 1373 01:07:40.360 --> 01:07:44.639 very clear about where she's offending somebody, of offending a 1374 01:07:44.679 --> 01:07:48.599 group of people, being apologetic of it and understanding what 1375 01:07:48.639 --> 01:07:52.079 has gone wrong. And everybody knows that Dan is someone 1376 01:07:52.119 --> 01:07:55.960 who's challenged all forms of racism. 1377 01:07:56.320 --> 01:07:59.760 That exchange continued, But Belle, we're not picking at these 1378 01:07:59.800 --> 01:08:02.880 things in your words, We're reflecting genuine concerns. 1379 01:08:03.320 --> 01:08:07.360 That particular interview. I'm saying, if you wanted to refer 1380 01:08:07.440 --> 01:08:10.320 to anything else that has been said, which I might, 1381 01:08:10.400 --> 01:08:13.480 I must note she's gone and apologized for I would 1382 01:08:13.519 --> 01:08:16.079 like to say, if you listen to the interview properly 1383 01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:19.279 as many people have, what people inferred from it and 1384 01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:22.600 what was reported from it was not entirely accurate. That 1385 01:08:22.680 --> 01:08:25.560 is all I'm saying. And Diana's been very very clear 1386 01:08:25.600 --> 01:08:28.640 about her apology, her initial apology and the apology that 1387 01:08:28.680 --> 01:08:31.479 she's reiterated today. She's very pleased to be back in 1388 01:08:31.520 --> 01:08:33.359 the Labor Party now. I think you'll find that many 1389 01:08:33.439 --> 01:08:36.439 people are pleased that she is. Also, thirty five thousand 1390 01:08:36.439 --> 01:08:40.039 people signed a petition saying that she should be reinstated, 1391 01:08:40.079 --> 01:08:41.680 and I think that's an important thing to note.

1392 01:08:41.760 --> 01:08:43.960 Bell just before you interrupted me, which is the wrong 1393 01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:45.520 way around for these things to work. I think in 1394 01:08:45.600 --> 01:08:47.359 TV and news, I was going to say, we're not 1395 01:08:47.439 --> 01:08:50.000 just picking at things she said in interviews and fixating 1396 01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:53.800 on them. Nick has been reflecting back genuine concern from 1397 01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:55.399 your colleagues in labor. 1398 01:08:57.720 --> 01:08:59.920 I'm making a point about specific Yes to the point 1399 01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:03.239 I'm making that. I'm making your point specifically about what 1400 01:09:03.319 --> 01:09:04.119 you have said. 1401 01:09:04.600 --> 01:09:05.439 And you made that point. 1402 01:09:05.560 --> 01:09:07.560 I'm asking you to make a different point about your 1403 01:09:07.640 --> 01:09:09.520 colleagues tonight and how they're feeling about this. 1404 01:09:10.039 --> 01:09:12.960 I have no issue with my colleagues having concerns, and 1405 01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:14.000 I think it's right for them. 1406 01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:14.520 To express it. 1407 01:09:15.199 --> 01:09:17.640 I know I was talking about your point let's be 1408 01:09:17.760 --> 01:09:20.000 very very clear, I was talking about what you said 1409 01:09:20.039 --> 01:09:23.640 in regards to the interview. Correct, yes, no, no, But 1410 01:09:23.800 --> 01:09:26.000 it's important to make that to make to make a 1411 01:09:26.039 --> 01:09:29.079 proper statement when you're when you're reflecting back on something 1412 01:09:29.119 --> 01:09:31.479 that someone has said. So to now try and say 1413 01:09:31.479 --> 01:09:34.640 that I have said that an entire communities issues should 1414 01:09:34.880 --> 01:09:39.119 or members of my colleagues should be my colleagues issues 1415 01:09:39.159 --> 01:09:42.520 shouldn't be of any concern. That is also not something. 1416 01:09:42.279 --> 01:09:43.920 I'm giving you. I'm giving you a chance. 1417 01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:49.479 So I actually don't agree with rivera ADDIE's take on 1418 01:09:49.520 --> 01:09:50.920 the interview, which we're going to listen to in a minute, 1419 01:09:50.920 --> 01:09:52.399 But I do think she was like super sharp to 1420 01:09:52.439 --> 01:09:55.359 catch that slide that was being made between her sort 1421 01:09:55.359 --> 01:09:58.439 of arguing about the meaning of the interview and the 1422 01:09:59.720 --> 01:10:01.960 inter if you were sort of then making it sound 1423 01:10:02.000 --> 01:10:05.720 as though perhaps she was also dismissing concerns of MPs 1424 01:10:05.720 --> 01:10:06.600 and the Jewish community. 1425 01:10:06.600 --> 01:10:08.279 I think that was a very sharp catch there. 1426 01:10:08.960 --> 01:10:11.439 But look, let's have a listen to the twenty twenty 1427 01:10:11.439 --> 01:10:13.640 five interview and see if Abbott really did double down 1428 01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:14.520 on the Observer letter. 1429 01:10:15.560 --> 01:10:18.880 You got into terrible trouble for a letter you wrote 1430 01:10:18.920 --> 01:10:24.319 to the Observer about racism, and you appeared to suggest, 1431 01:10:24.359 --> 01:10:26.920 in the view of some of your critics anyway, that 1432 01:10:27.560 --> 01:10:31.600 the kind of anti semitism that the Jewish community suffered, 1433 01:10:31.720 --> 01:10:35.560 or traveler suffered, or Irish people suffered, was somehow different 1434 01:10:36.079 --> 01:10:38.800 from the racism that you, as a young black person 1435 01:10:38.880 --> 01:10:42.640 had suffered. You were suspended and there was a great hookah. 1436 01:10:42.880 --> 01:10:45.119 Do you look back on that with regret? 1437 01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:50.239 No, not at all. Clearly, there must be a difference 1438 01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:56.600 between racism which is about color, and other types of racism. 1439 01:10:56.680 --> 01:11:03.680 Because you can see traveler Jewish person walking down the 1440 01:11:03.720 --> 01:11:08.079 street you don't know, You don't know unless you stop 1441 01:11:08.159 --> 01:11:10.600 to speak to or or you're in a meeting with them. 1442 01:11:10.920 --> 01:11:13.479 But if you see a black person walking down the street, 1443 01:11:13.680 --> 01:11:17.880 you see straight away that they're black. There are different types. 1444 01:11:17.640 --> 01:11:20.399 Of racism, but the effect is the same. If you 1445 01:11:20.560 --> 01:11:23.960 are going to a synagogue on a Saturday morning and 1446 01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:27.880 you have to have guards outside because some people might 1447 01:11:27.880 --> 01:11:30.479 come along and want to insult you or even throw 1448 01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:33.680 things at you, that's pretty much the same as the 1449 01:11:33.760 --> 01:11:35.960 kind of thing you describe in your book as happening 1450 01:11:36.039 --> 01:11:38.159 to you as a black person. The fact is one 1451 01:11:38.279 --> 01:11:39.840 is a person of color, and one isn't. It's neither 1452 01:11:39.880 --> 01:11:42.279 here nor there. If you suffer it, it's still damaging. 1453 01:11:42.279 --> 01:11:47.359 It is here because you can spot that person of 1454 01:11:47.439 --> 01:11:50.119 color from one hundreds of yards away. 1455 01:11:50.199 --> 01:11:52.439 That is what is different. You will do the thing 1456 01:11:52.520 --> 01:11:52.920 you said. 1457 01:11:53.039 --> 01:11:56.359 Look, if this is misunderstood as you thought it was, 1458 01:11:57.199 --> 01:12:00.720 then I apologize for it. But from the you don't 1459 01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:04.159 believe you did anything wrong, or you didn't attempt to 1460 01:12:04.199 --> 01:12:05.960 say something that you didn't believe. 1461 01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:13.720 I just think that it's silly to try and claim 1462 01:12:14.159 --> 01:12:21.399 that racism, which is about skin color, is the same 1463

01:12:21.439 --> 01:12:25.000 as other types of racism. I just I don't know 1464 01:12:25.039 --> 01:12:26.159 why people would say. 1465 01:12:26.000 --> 01:12:31.760 That, but you would, I assume, condemn anti Semitic behavior 1466 01:12:31.840 --> 01:12:35.000 in the same way that you would condemn racist behavior 1467 01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:37.439 against someone simply because of the color of the skin. 1468 01:12:37.640 --> 01:12:40.760 Well, of course, and I do get a bit weary 1469 01:12:40.920 --> 01:12:46.079 of people trying to pin the anti Semitic label on me, 1470 01:12:46.319 --> 01:12:51.520 because I've spent a lifetime fighting racism of all kinds, 1471 01:12:51.520 --> 01:12:54.560 and in particular fighting anti Sempittism, partly because the nature 1472 01:12:54.560 --> 01:12:56.119 of my constituency. 1473 01:12:56.960 --> 01:13:00.319 So I think it's like it's fairly subtle, was not 1474 01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:02.600 actually even subtle at all. Actually, she said one thing 1475 01:13:02.640 --> 01:13:07.199 in the Observer article, which was that racism was one 1476 01:13:07.239 --> 01:13:09.760 thing and prejudice was a different thing, and they could 1477 01:13:09.800 --> 01:13:13.520 were easily mistaken for one each other, but for one another. 1478 01:13:13.560 --> 01:13:17.000 But you know, Jewish people, travelers, the Irish don't experience 1479 01:13:17.079 --> 01:13:19.720 racism and experienced prejudice. And she also compared it to 1480 01:13:19.760 --> 01:13:21.800 like the experience, you know, she'd use redheads as an 1481 01:13:21.800 --> 01:13:25.279 example of experiencing prejudice. That was a mistake here in 1482 01:13:25.319 --> 01:13:27.319 this interview. She's not actually saying any of that. She's 1483 01:13:27.399 --> 01:13:30.920 just saying that actually there are differences in the way 1484 01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:35.039 that that that racism is enacted and and experienced, and 1485 01:13:35.079 --> 01:13:39.920 that some people some some racism, you know, is a 1486 01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:43.600 result of directly the way that that's that some somebody 1487 01:13:43.640 --> 01:13:46.960 looks and and and On LBC, coler Barry rang into 1488 01:13:46.960 --> 01:13:49.319 the studio to give pretty much that take. 1489 01:13:49.159 --> 01:13:50.159 On the on the Abbot case. 1490 01:13:52.439 --> 01:13:55.199 People didn't hear the words she said, partly because she's 1491 01:13:55.239 --> 01:13:59.119 a black woman, so they dismissed her. So they refused 1492 01:13:59.159 --> 01:14:01.800 to hear the fact that she said that other people 1493 01:14:01.840 --> 01:14:04.560 face prejudice. They do face prejudice. It doesn't mean that 1494 01:14:04.600 --> 01:14:08.079 it's worse or better. It just means that it is. 1495 01:14:08.680 --> 01:14:10.880 And I'm a black man, and when I walk down 1496 01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:14.159 the street, doesn't matter that I'm almost fifty years old. 1497 01:14:14.439 --> 01:14:17.199 People will still cross the road. They will still cross 1498 01:14:17.199 --> 01:14:19.319 the road, they will still grab their handbags. I asked 1499 01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:22.520 the question, are they being careful or are they being prejudiced. 1500 01:14:22.560 --> 01:14:26.880 I've heard MPs say that they don't like black and 1501 01:14:26.920 --> 01:14:29.560 brown faces on TV too many on adverts. There were 1502 01:14:29.640 --> 01:14:31.760 some outrage, but you know what, there wasn't the same 1503 01:14:31.800 --> 01:14:35.319 clamor they don't go on about it. They'ved she's okay, 1504 01:14:35.359 --> 01:14:40.199 now she's still an MB. My racism is literally on 1505 01:14:40.239 --> 01:14:43.560 my skin. Yeah, yours, Yes, you might use Yes, people 1506 01:14:43.560 --> 01:14:47.039 are treated differently for other reasons, but mine is superficient. 1507 01:14:50.159 --> 01:14:54.439 Paul, I'm not surprised that Abbott wasn't They didn't find 1508 01:14:54.479 --> 01:14:57.239 anything wrong with what she said on the radio because 1509 01:14:57.319 --> 01:14:59.560 I think what she said on the radio was completely 1510 01:14:59.560 --> 01:15:02.840 true and it was different from the clumsily phrased thing 1511 01:15:03.680 --> 01:15:07.000 and potentially false thing that she said in the Observer. 1512 01:15:07.399 --> 01:15:12.520 I think that, you know, it's it seems, as she said, 1513 01:15:12.680 --> 01:15:15.319 fairly obvious that there are different types of racisms which 1514 01:15:15.359 --> 01:15:18.920 are just responses to different features of people. All of 1515 01:15:18.920 --> 01:15:21.840 them are racism, but they have their experience differently and 1516 01:15:21.880 --> 01:15:25.600 they are triggered differently. And I'm glad to have her 1517 01:15:25.640 --> 01:15:27.119 back in the party, in the Labor Party. 1518 01:15:27.119 --> 01:15:30.119 What do you think about this, this whole thing is 1519 01:15:30.119 --> 01:15:32.439 is you know it possibly off so much to be 1520 01:15:32.439 --> 01:15:35.319 honest and use my language, like watching all this again happening, 1521 01:15:35.520 --> 01:15:38.359 it's like the most bad faith interpretation of what dan 1522 01:15:38.359 --> 01:15:40.079 Abbott was trying to say and it's been trying to 1523 01:15:40.079 --> 01:15:43.039 say for a very long time, which is an incredibly simple, straightforward, 1524 01:15:43.279 --> 01:15:48.199 really uncontroversial point, really uncontroversial point pretty much anywhere in 1525 01:15:48.239 --> 01:15:50.960 the world outside of like the hermetically sealed nonsense of 1526 01:15:50.960 --> 01:15:55.000 the Labor Party, where like these issues become just storted 1527 01:15:55.039 --> 01:15:58.479 beyond any sort of reasonable interpretation, and you know, it's 1528 01:15:58.479 --> 01:16:01.720 filtering into a political process so toxified this discourse, you 1529 01:16:01.720 --> 01:16:04.199 can't have a

serious conversation. So I think, you know, 1530 01:16:04.279 --> 01:16:05.960 first the first things first we have to do is 1531 01:16:06.000 --> 01:16:08.880 like straighten ow what happened. She sent the letter to 1532 01:16:08.960 --> 01:16:12.960 the Observer, where she was trying to make the point 1533 01:16:13.039 --> 01:16:15.319 that there are differences in the ways the prejudice express 1534 01:16:15.680 --> 01:16:18.600 depending on the axis on which the prejudice happens. So 1535 01:16:18.800 --> 01:16:21.079 if you're a black person, it's on your skin, people 1536 01:16:21.239 --> 01:16:24.079 respond to you. If you're Jewish, you might not be 1537 01:16:24.600 --> 01:16:27.039 visibly Jewish. You might not be unless you were in 1538 01:16:27.039 --> 01:16:29.960 a kipper, so you might be able to you might 1539 01:16:30.039 --> 01:16:31.800 you know, you won't experience racism in the same way. 1540 01:16:31.960 --> 01:16:35.279 That's totally uncontroversial thing to say that different types of 1541 01:16:35.279 --> 01:16:38.399 prejudice express themselves differently, just in the same way that 1542 01:16:38.520 --> 01:16:41.479 anti black racism, the types of stereotypes that will be 1543 01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:44.119 associated with blackness is different to the type of sterious 1544 01:16:44.119 --> 01:16:46.199 types that will be associated with people who are Jewish 1545 01:16:46.319 --> 01:16:49.039 and who are Muslim, because they're all culturally determined by 1546 01:16:49.039 --> 01:16:53.119 different historical processes. You know, black people, you know gray 1547 01:16:53.199 --> 01:16:56.119 up in South Africa and a party like the racism 1548 01:16:56.119 --> 01:16:58.880 towards black people is that they're thick, that they are smelly, 1549 01:16:58.960 --> 01:17:02.720 that they are a different, that they're animalistic. The type 1550 01:17:02.720 --> 01:17:04.880 of prejudice that's shown towards Jewish people is that they 1551 01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:07.279 are too smart for their own good, that they are 1552 01:17:07.960 --> 01:17:11.640 malevolent operators because their loan sharks, their shylocks that are 1553 01:17:12.479 --> 01:17:16.279 and Muslims, you know, now, the culturally created prejudice around 1554 01:17:16.319 --> 01:17:19.520 them is that they you know that the Islam is 1555 01:17:19.520 --> 01:17:22.960 a fundamentally vinyl religion. These people will deep down, regardless 1556 01:17:22.960 --> 01:17:25.439 of what country they live and actually have a Muslim 1557 01:17:25.520 --> 01:17:27.680 gene that makes them under do Sharia law every area. 1558 01:17:27.880 --> 01:17:30.960 Like Obviously, different types of prejudice expressed differently, because all 1559 01:17:31.000 --> 01:17:34.439 prejudice is socially constructed, and it's socially constructed at different 1560 01:17:34.439 --> 01:17:37.680 times by different people for different reasons, usually economic domination. 1561 01:17:37.800 --> 01:17:42.439 That's the key thing, right, So Dianahbud's first edited Observer 1562 01:17:42.720 --> 01:17:47.560 is plainly clumsily written. She clearly says something that underplays 1563 01:17:47.600 --> 01:17:50.079 the extent and consequence of anti Jewish presidents. 1564 01:17:50.079 --> 01:17:51.800 Obviously, the Redhead's thing was crazy. 1565 01:17:51.920 --> 01:17:54.800 Obviously I think she immediately apologizes for her right and 1566 01:17:54.840 --> 01:17:56.960 she says, I'm really sorry. This was a drafting error. 1567 01:17:57.359 --> 01:17:59.039 I sent her a Drafters that was wrong. I was 1568 01:17:59.079 --> 01:18:01.359 dealing with my staff member a ment to sense her 1569 01:18:01.359 --> 01:18:03.439 a lated draft where you corrected it and the wrong 1570 01:18:03.479 --> 01:18:03.960 one got in. 1571 01:18:04.039 --> 01:18:04.920 Of course, the question. 1572 01:18:04.760 --> 01:18:07.760 Perhaps like why dubserver and said they knew didn't reflect 1573 01:18:07.760 --> 01:18:11.039 the views that it's a different discussion. But she immediately apologized, right, 1574 01:18:11.439 --> 01:18:13.920 and in that moment the key issue was well, how 1575 01:18:13.920 --> 01:18:16.079 do you deal with an apology from Dynabod versus somebody 1576 01:18:16.079 --> 01:18:18.359 like Steve ree Because Steve Reid made incredibly clumsy comments 1577 01:18:18.359 --> 01:18:21.840 about Jewish businessman and he was immediately absolved. You know, 1578 01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:23.760 he was like, it's fine, you know you made a mistake. 1579 01:18:24.000 --> 01:18:27.399 We are going to you know, part of what drives 1580 01:18:27.399 --> 01:18:30.199 so much British politics is basically who gets the benefit 1581 01:18:30.239 --> 01:18:33.399 of the doubt in a situation like this. Steve Reid 1582 01:18:33.399 --> 01:18:36.079 immediately got the benefit of the dart, Dynabo didn't, and 1583 01:18:36.159 --> 01:18:38.000 dynabin't given the benefit dot for all sorts of reasons, 1584 01:18:38.039 --> 01:18:40.640 not least racism, but also at least because the people 1585 01:18:40.680 --> 01:18:42.239 who didn't want to give the benefit of the dart 1586 01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:44.159 were the same people who make the decision about whether 1587 01:18:44.199 --> 01:18:48.720 she suspends it or not. Right now that happens, they 1588 01:18:48.760 --> 01:18:51.720 take a year to investigate a letter which is apologized for, 1589 01:18:51.800 --> 01:18:54.880 which is an absurdity, and it's plainly designed to humiliate her. 1590 01:18:55.119 --> 01:18:56.159 There's simply no. 1591 01:18:56.039 --> 01:18:58.119 Reason for it to take a year to investigator, and 1592 01:18:58.119 --> 01:19:00.720 they're clear her and they lie about her heatedly in 1593 01:19:00.760 --> 01:19:03.479 that year that Kirstarmer gives an interview where he says, 1594 01:19:03.920 --> 01:19:05.439 you know, one of the first things I did when 1595

01:19:05.439 --> 01:19:07.359 I came in as leaders is I didn't get involved 1596 01:19:07.359 --> 01:19:10.239 in this. She's going, you know, this is an independent process. 1597 01:19:10.439 --> 01:19:12.439 You know, I have no role on this. By the 1598 01:19:12.479 --> 01:19:14.880 time she had an interview, she'd already been cleared by 1599 01:19:14.880 --> 01:19:17.159 the party of wrongby she'd gone through a process. All 1600 01:19:17.199 --> 01:19:18.960 that happened was for the whip to be restored. They're 1601 01:19:19.000 --> 01:19:21.560 repeatedly lied about it. Then we had the Frankester situation 1602 01:19:21.960 --> 01:19:24.119 where she's racially you know, there's a horrible thing that 1603 01:19:24.199 --> 01:19:27.239 Frank Kester says, there's there's a discussion in parliament, she's 1604 01:19:27.279 --> 01:19:28.520 the only person not called. 1605 01:19:28.399 --> 01:19:31.560 To give a discussion about it. Really treats her abominably. 1606 01:19:31.119 --> 01:19:33.199 Right, And then he makes a big show of sort 1607 01:19:33.199 --> 01:19:35.159 of going over it, right yeah, And she. 1608 01:19:35.039 --> 01:19:37.079 Says, and there's a conversation. He says that anything I can, 1609 01:19:37.239 --> 01:19:39.800 She's like, give you the godamn whip back. And basically 1610 01:19:39.840 --> 01:19:42.720 she has to fight tooth and nail, im mobilize like 1611 01:19:43.399 --> 01:19:47.199 a large left in constituency predominantly blackened her constituency to 1612 01:19:47.239 --> 01:19:49.119 make sure she can actually just stand as the MP. 1613 01:19:49.359 --> 01:19:51.920 And she wins that battle. Then she gives us interview 1614 01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:55.319 to the BBC, where plainly what she's saying is I 1615 01:19:55.399 --> 01:19:57.479 stand by the original point that I was making, which 1616 01:19:57.520 --> 01:20:00.479 is entirely uncontroversial. It's so obvious that's what she Yeah, 1617 01:20:00.520 --> 01:20:02.640 it's so obvious what she's saying is that I don't 1618 01:20:02.840 --> 01:20:04.800 you know, she's not saying, oh, I actually meant the 1619 01:20:04.880 --> 01:20:08.159 originally worded She's saying. The point that I'm trying to 1620 01:20:08.159 --> 01:20:10.720 make is that different types of racism and prejudice express themselves, 1621 01:20:10.760 --> 01:20:13.319 which is why I find for rosenbooks coming so discussed 1622 01:20:13.319 --> 01:20:15.840 and really pisses me off this idea that she's not 1623 01:20:15.880 --> 01:20:18.960 actually standing in solidarity to Jewish people by saying, actually, 1624 01:20:19.000 --> 01:20:20.880 we should be sensitive to the unique ways in which 1625 01:20:20.920 --> 01:20:24.239 anti semitism, anti black racism exploss is fundamentally showing your 1626 01:20:24.279 --> 01:20:26.920 sensitive to the issue of anti semitism, like it pisses 1627 01:20:26.960 --> 01:20:29.840 me off that he's even using that moment to imply, 1628 01:20:30.079 --> 01:20:32.640 as far as I can understand, that he's saying that 1629 01:20:32.680 --> 01:20:35.880 she's actually drawing some sort of negative distinction between the 1630 01:20:35.880 --> 01:20:37.800 black and the Jewish community, and she's trying to draw 1631 01:20:37.920 --> 01:20:40.199 where she's not. She's saying, needs are different experiences, and 1632 01:20:40.279 --> 01:20:43.119 we can have a conversation about that right, the other 1633 01:20:43.119 --> 01:20:44.520 thing that drives me mad, and I've got a lot 1634 01:20:44.520 --> 01:20:45.840 of things to get off my chest. Yeah, if you 1635 01:20:45.880 --> 01:20:49.479 can tell for it, I'm on a roll the thing 1636 01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:51.239 that pisses me off about Newsnight so much. And I 1637 01:20:51.239 --> 01:20:53.640 put this on Twitter today because and I've I've been 1638 01:20:53.720 --> 01:20:54.920 trying to take a bit of a Twitter. 1639 01:20:54.760 --> 01:20:56.079 Holiday for the last couple of days. 1640 01:20:56.840 --> 01:20:59.319 But before the book came out, the first big story 1641 01:20:59.319 --> 01:21:01.239 that I wanted to really a poor Openden, A poor 1642 01:21:01.279 --> 01:21:03.640 Ovenden was at the time the book came about the 1643 01:21:03.680 --> 01:21:06.600 chief of the head of Strategy at Number ten. He'd 1644 01:21:06.600 --> 01:21:08.359 being in the Labor Comm's department for a long time, 1645 01:21:08.359 --> 01:21:11.159 and I had these messages from twenty fourteen twenty fifteen 1646 01:21:11.439 --> 01:21:14.600 where he's saying utterly despicable things about dyna Abbot. He's 1647 01:21:14.600 --> 01:21:18.560 recounting he's telling another female staff for white female staffer 1648 01:21:18.680 --> 01:21:22.880 in this conversation, recounting basically getting drunk while other stuff 1649 01:21:22.880 --> 01:21:26.319 as the night before then having a game of you know, 1650 01:21:26.960 --> 01:21:30.159 sex Mary kill about Dynabot and then make me sexualized 1651 01:21:30.159 --> 01:21:30.840 comments about it. 1652 01:21:30.880 --> 01:21:32.199 Really quite disgusting stuff. 1653 01:21:32.720 --> 01:21:34.880 This stuff is plainly in the public interest, right, and 1654 01:21:34.920 --> 01:21:36.560 we know it's the public interest because when I took 1655 01:21:36.560 --> 01:21:39.520 it to a proper news outlet, they actually published it 1656 01:21:39.560 --> 01:21:40.720 and immediately he resigned. 1657 01:21:40.760 --> 01:21:41.000 Yeah. 1658 01:21:41.119 --> 01:21:43.199 Right, And the reason it's in the public interest because 1659 01:21:43.239 --> 01:21:45.119 you can't have somebody who's their head of strategy saying 1660 01:21:45.119 --> 01:21:48.600 these things about black people and about Dyne Abert. Right now, 1661 01:21:48.720 --> 01:21:51.239 the first people I took that story to was Newsnight. 1662 01:21:52.880 --> 01:21:54.279 You know, I took the story to them, I think 1663

01:21:54.279 --> 01:21:57.520 it was in August last year, and for six weeks 1664 01:21:57.640 --> 01:21:59.760 Newsnight told me they were interested, they didn't run the 1665 01:21:59.800 --> 01:22:01.800 stock and every conversation I had, and I'm not going 1666 01:22:01.840 --> 01:22:03.319 to name the person I aspected was like, all very 1667 01:22:03.399 --> 01:22:05.880 nice and icy, and we think it's such an important story, 1668 01:22:06.039 --> 01:22:08.960 but we're having editorial discussions. We're having editorial discussions. We're 1669 01:22:08.960 --> 01:22:11.000 having editorial discussions. And by the end of it, I 1670 01:22:11.039 --> 01:22:13.359 basically got the message was like, you're just not going 1671 01:22:13.399 --> 01:22:15.399 to touch this. Then I went to ITV the around 1672 01:22:15.399 --> 01:22:16.039 it in three days. 1673 01:22:17.000 --> 01:22:17.199 Right. 1674 01:22:17.560 --> 01:22:22.520 So Newsnight has a consistent pattern of misrepresenting and misreporting 1675 01:22:22.520 --> 01:22:25.119 on Dynabo and not giving the alternative version. 1676 01:22:25.239 --> 01:22:25.399 Right. 1677 01:22:25.840 --> 01:22:28.479 So, even in that platform, even in that panel right there, 1678 01:22:28.920 --> 01:22:31.760 five six white people talking about racism, why on earther's 1679 01:22:31.760 --> 01:22:33.880 in Martin Martin Ford on that panel. Martin Ford has 1680 01:22:33.920 --> 01:22:37.399 repeatedly been asked to give, you know, discussions about Dynamic. 1681 01:22:37.479 --> 01:22:40.239 He's worked at DYNAB, He's helped her to try and 1682 01:22:40.319 --> 01:22:42.439 navigate some of her disability issues. 1683 01:22:42.560 --> 01:22:44.720 Why isn't he being brought on board to discuss this issue? 1684 01:22:44.720 --> 01:22:49.000 Instead we have this entirely tone deaf discussion which misrepresents 1685 01:22:49.000 --> 01:22:52.439 what Dynaber says. The other thing, you know, really the 1686 01:22:52.479 --> 01:22:55.119 reason she was resuspended is because of the BBC, because 1687 01:22:55.119 --> 01:22:56.960 what actually happened at that moment is if you listen 1688 01:22:57.039 --> 01:22:59.600 to that interview, it's plain what she's saying. The BBC 1689 01:22:59.640 --> 01:23:03.199 clipped in Socials to make it sound like she was 1690 01:23:03.239 --> 01:23:06.279 saying she didn't regret sending their letter, which wasn't true, 1691 01:23:06.399 --> 01:23:09.079 and immediately as that happened, she was suspended again. There 1692 01:23:09.119 --> 01:23:11.520 was a direct line between them posting of a misleading 1693 01:23:11.520 --> 01:23:13.560 thing on socials and Dynaba being suspended. 1694 01:23:14.680 --> 01:23:15.279 So we have a. 1695 01:23:15.199 --> 01:23:18.199 Situation where they are repeatedly misrepresenting what she says. They're 1696 01:23:18.199 --> 01:23:20.600 getting people on board who I am also I think 1697 01:23:20.800 --> 01:23:23.399 giving the worst faith interpretation of what she has to say. 1698 01:23:24.399 --> 01:23:27.319 They are giving no countervailing opinions. There's not a single 1699 01:23:27.319 --> 01:23:29.640 person on that panel who's not white to speak about it. 1700 01:23:30.279 --> 01:23:32.039 And this is also in the context in which they 1701 01:23:32.039 --> 01:23:35.119 have been given hard evidence of a serious misconduct by 1702 01:23:35.119 --> 01:23:37.800 a senior labor official in government, a buy down abbot, 1703 01:23:37.800 --> 01:23:40.880 and they haven't run that story. Like I don't think 1704 01:23:40.920 --> 01:23:42.680 at this point I'm looking at something. This is not 1705 01:23:42.720 --> 01:23:46.880 a nice, lettered incident. This is a cultural problem within 1706 01:23:46.960 --> 01:23:50.640 Newsnight that they are for some reason unable to report 1707 01:23:50.640 --> 01:23:53.760 accurately and sensitively on this issue. And if they were 1708 01:23:53.760 --> 01:23:56.119 able to report accurately incentives issue, it wouldn't be in 1709 01:23:56.159 --> 01:23:58.640 half an hour, half and half of the episode. It'd 1710 01:23:58.680 --> 01:24:01.880 be a two minute discussion. And part of that discussion 1711 01:24:01.880 --> 01:24:04.640 would be this person has said two things in their life, 1712 01:24:04.960 --> 01:24:08.640 two things in a life that's eighty years long, that 1713 01:24:08.680 --> 01:24:10.800 you don't like on social media, and you think there 1714 01:24:10.800 --> 01:24:14.279 counts more than eighty years of anti racist practice, I 1715 01:24:14.279 --> 01:24:15.920 mean there's outrageous sort of stuff. 1716 01:24:15.920 --> 01:24:17.520 It's outrageous stuff. 1717 01:24:17.359 --> 01:24:19.560 And the BBC really should be ashamed of their conduct, 1718 01:24:19.640 --> 01:24:21.760 should be ashamed of they conduct. Back in twenty twenty 1719 01:24:21.840 --> 01:24:23.479 back in twenty twenty four, Syhu to spend it They 1720 01:24:23.479 --> 01:24:24.840 should be ashamed of what they did there. 1721 01:24:26.560 --> 01:24:28.960 Paul, thank you very much for that, and thank you 1722 01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:32.199 for joining me tonight, and thanks everyone for tuning in. 1723 01:24:32.359 --> 01:24:35.199 Come back on Monday for another live stream from six pm. 1724 01:24:35.279 --> 01:24:36.720 For now you've been watching Navari Media. 1725 01:24:36.760 --> 01:24:37.119 Good night,