บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ The Things We Do... - Interview with Em Jaay

00:04:08,840 So to come back to Sydney where everyone was from Sydney, it felt very stale, you know, 74 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,960 because I had been exposed to this, if you want to go away for the weekend, you would 75 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:19,760 go to like climb this gorge in Sichuan or like go to this mountain where Tibetan monks 76 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:20,760 lived. 77 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,680 So I was like very young to be exposed to like this level of like, whoa, because I was 78 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:25,680 in a very random part of China. 79 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:26,680 I wasn't in Shanghai or Beijing. 80 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,560 I was in the West. 81 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,720 So when I came back, it was kind of like, cool, how can I organize myself to go back 82 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:34,920 to that immediately as soon as possible? 83 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,920 So I understood, you know, but in a sensible path through university and blah, blah, blah. 84 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,720 So I understood I could do this Erasmus to Beijing to one of the big universities there. 85 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:44,720 So I did that. 86 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,600 And while I was there, I had to kind of already developed a little bit this jealousy of people 87 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,600 who did film. 88 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:56,560 It was already starting when I was in uni here, like, hmm, I'm very jealous of my friend's 89 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,120 brother that he's doing film. 90 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:59,120 Like, why? 91 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:00,280 I like what I'm doing. 92 00:05:00,280 --> 00:05:01,720 Why this irrational jealousy? 93 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,480 And then I got to Beijing and a friend of mine kind of put me in touch with her friends 94 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,360 and they were filmmakers. 95 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,680 And I was immediately like, hi. 96 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:16,080 And then slowly I understood, yeah, this jealousy, like use that to show you what you want because 97 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:17,080 it's like an envy. 98 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,320 So if you like look inside yourself, okay, what am I envious of? 99 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,040 Maybe I should follow that path. 100 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:28,120 And so yeah, halfway through the six month Erasmus, I started to write a film and ended 101 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,680 up like staying an extra six months. 102 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,280 Then I never really came back to Sydney after that. 103 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:38,360 I came back for some months to maybe like finish the degree that I had missing subjects 104 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:43,960 randomly around and to finish the post on the film that I had shot there. 105 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,040 And then that came out what? 106 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:48,040 2012? 107 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:49,040 2011? 108 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:50,040 2015. 109 00:05:50,040 -->

00:05:51,040 2015. 110 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:52,040 Oh God, okay. 111 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:53,040 The timeline is messy. 112 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:54,040 Yeah, I know. 113 00:05:54,040 --> 00:06:00,640 I was like, because I remember you, I remember you posting about that and talking about that 114 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,960 and I think there was a year between post and actually completion of filming or something 115 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:06,960 like that. 116 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:07,960 It was quite a... 117 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:08,960 Yeah, we shot in 2013. 118 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:09,960 Yeah. 119 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:10,960 So like filmmaking. 120 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:11,960 Yeah, it took a while. 121 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:19,480 But I mean, it took very fast to film in some ways for a feature film, like a couple of 122 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,720 weekends, like a couple of weeks, but over six months. 123 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,880 Because also then you could get Beijing in the summer and the winter and the city changes 124 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:25,880 a lot, which was cool. 125 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,560 But it was one of these projects where no one is paid, you know, so you have to go slowly 126 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,120 and everyone is helping at the right time that works for them because they're doing 127 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,120 it because they're interested in it or they like the project. 128 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,480 So you can't really push people that much at that point to hurry the fuck up. 129 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,440 It's not going to go. 130 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:43,440 No. 131 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,720 And then you left China and then moved to Italy? 132 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,000 No, there was a step in between. 133 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:57,280 So the film was 2015, basically finished, went to Montreal World Film Festival as the 134 00:06:57,280 --> 00:07:01,920 premiere and then played some festivals around, even one in Sydney, I think this one, women 135 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:02,920 in film. 136 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,240 The name has changed now since the festival existed. 137 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:06,800 Oh, I think I know the one you're talking about. 138 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:07,800 But yeah, yeah, yeah. 139 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:08,800 It was called like Mad or something like that. 140 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:09,800 Yeah. 141 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:10,800 Anyway, yeah, I can't remember. 142 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:11,800 I always forget the name and I should know it. 143 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:13,120 It was a nice one. 144 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:20,440 But yeah, so as I was finishing that, I understood that I wanted to leave from Beijing just to 145 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:21,440 change things up. 146 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:22,440 I mean, I was 24. 147 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:23,720 I'd been in Beijing and China since I was 18. 148 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,520 And

I had understood that you can get a son, you can kind of do anything in Beijing. 149 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,320 You can arrive and just tell people, I'm a filmmaker. 150 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:32,680 And like, why would they question you? 151 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:33,680 Okay, cool. 152 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:34,920 But like, maybe you're not at all. 153 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:36,680 You just say that you are and they'll believe you. 154 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,120 And then you just do whatever you want. 155 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,920 So I wanted to kind of enter into more like professional setting to not be in this amateur 156 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:42,920 space. 157 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,960 I was looking at different film school options and didn't want to go to the US, didn't want 158 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:49,160 to go to the UK. 159 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,560 But everything in Europe was the National Academy. 160 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,880 So it was in the local language of whatever country you want to go to. 161 00:07:54,880 --> 00:08:00,600 And then actually, this friend of mine who was doing the music for actually who we worked 162 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:07,480 with at the Seymour Center, he did the music for the Beijing film. 163 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:12,440 He was like, ah, you know, this Hungarian director has opened a school in Sarajevo. 164 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,280 So why don't you check it out? 165 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:20,120 So I checked it out and I applied and I got in to the second round of master's course 166 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:21,120 that they had. 167 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:26,960 So, yeah, I moved from Beijing to Bosnia, Herzegovina, to study there under Belotar, 168 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,120 who is this Hungarian director. 169 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,240 And yeah, his school is quite experimental in the model. 170 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:33,720 Like it was more like a masterclass model. 171 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,560 He just invited his different friends to show up. 172 00:08:35,560 --> 00:08:39,320 And there were like very specific guidelines of how we could and couldn't make films, like 173 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,720 certain limits he made us do. 174 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,280 And then I was two years there and the second year the school closed. 175 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,280 So our last semester was like no teaching, just shooting. 176 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,720 Bella had gone and we used the equipment of the school to kind of finish our work with 177 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,360 each other because we were all like on each other's crews and stuff. 178 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,560 But yeah, and then after that, that's when I went to Italy. 179 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:01,560 Right. 180 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:06,000 And then did Italy open like another whole like level of boxes for you? 181 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,960 Yeah, kind of. 182 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,000 Yeah. 183 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,760 It was a very random decision. 184 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:18,000 Like I still now can't quite place what drew me to there, except that I didn't, it didn't 185 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,840 make sense to go back to Australia because I had been so long away and I didn't know 186 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:22,840 what to do. 187 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:23,840 I wouldn't, I would have to completely start again. 188 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,640 I didn't really want to go back to China also because I didn't have a visa and it would 189 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,840 have had to find a work and find a visa. 190 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:29,840 It was kind of getting annoying. 191 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:30,840 Yeah. 192 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:35,360 And at the time I had the possibility to live in Europe for my passport. 193 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,600 So I went and yeah, it was like cool. 194 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,600 Italy is right next to the Balkans, like right next to ex-Yukoslavia countries, but it's 195 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,760 bigger than Slovenia, which has a very tiny market. 196 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,840 And it has a really good relationship with China, like historically this connection of 197 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,120 like Marco Pol onwards. 198 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:59,040 And basically there was that, I had a lot of friends from Beijing who had some connection 199 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,680 to Italy or were Italian. 200 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:08,360 Very randomly I went there and yeah, it opened up this whole world of like European cinema. 201 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,240 Yeah, which is a very different ball game. 202 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,680 I feel like Australian cinema is a little bit, I want to say lackluster. 203 00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:20,280 I've never been a huge fan of Australian cinema. 204 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:26,160 I think it's like depends, but I think yeah, like international like films or European 205 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:31,600 films that tend to be sort of like way more interesting or just independent films. 206 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:32,880 I kind of like indie films. 207 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,880 They are like where a lot of my love comes. 208 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,800 But surely there are Australian indie films now, like there's interesting things being 209 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:39,800 made around. 210 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,220 Only in the last five years though. 211 00:10:41,220 --> 00:10:43,800 It really came out in the last five years. 212 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:50,320 Before then, when especially when we were both studying, there weren't that many, there 213 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,320 was like completely like probably pittance. 214 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:53,320 Yeah, it's true. 215 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:58,480 There was like this weird desert, you know, in between from like the 90s ones until, but 216 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,760

recently there's some pretty interesting things popping up. 217 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:01,760 Yeah. 218 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:06,600 And I feel like it's probably because Australia got a lot more traction, especially because 219 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:11,600 we've got a lot more stars in the limelight that want to push a lot of Australian productions, 220 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,680 which you know, kudos. 221 00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:16,800 But we weren't known for like, you know, TV soaps and stuff like that. 222 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,960 We weren't really known for like dramatic arts or, you know, really well thought out 223 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:21,960 films. 224 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:23,880 We were known for soaps and horror. 225 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:25,800 And those were like our two things. 226 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:26,800 Yeah. 227 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:27,800 Yeah. 228 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,920 It's always the same model, no? 229 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,320 Like, ah, the landscape is so scary. 230 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,320 Yeah. 231 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:35,320 No, suburban life. 232 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:36,320 Whoa. 233 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:37,320 Suburban life is fucking terrifying. 234 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:38,320 I have to say, like, I can agree with this one. 235 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:47,760 But no, I love, so, so what was the last thing you filmed? 236 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:48,760 What was? 237 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,120 I actually shot a short here during the lockdown. 238 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:52,120 Wow. 239 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,240 Which was, okay, not during the lockdown, during this lock in, lock in, like you can't 240 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:57,240 leave Australia. 241 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:58,240 Lock in. 242 00:11:58,240 --> 00:11:59,240 Yeah. 243 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:00,240 So yeah, not like in my house. 244 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,080 Because it's hard because I don't know, I always refer to the lockdown as just those 245 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:05,080 two years. 246 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,080 Yeah. 247 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,080 Because I couldn't leave. 248 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,080 We were locked in. 249 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,080 Yeah. 250 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,720 Anyway, not quite correct. 251 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,280 But yeah, it was cool. 252 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:18,760 It was some very, very random, like, how do you say, collusion of events. 253 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:19,760 Yeah. 254 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,360 A friend of mine who became a friend because I went to look at his house. 255 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,120 And just, and the reason I looked at his house, because he did such an interesting post on 256 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:33,000 Facebook marketplace, like instead of pictures, he'd made like little films and he announced 257 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:34,000 himself as a filmmaker. 258 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:35,880 And a lot of the films, I

could see Star Wars posters. 259 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,520 And I was like, aha, okay, like I could live with like a Star Wars dude. 260 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:40,520 Like this is possible. 261 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,600 So like, I went to see the place and literally, I think I spent like one hour there, like 262 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,880 chatting with him, looking at what he was working on, telling him what I was working 263 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:49,880 on. 264 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:50,880 It was really interesting. 265 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:51,880 So then I was like, okay, cool. 266 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,080 I actually don't want to live in your house, but like, let's be friends. 267 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,120 And I think some days later, like a week or so later, he was having a party at his house. 268 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,680 And he's the kind of person who really brings people together. 269 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:06,080 He wanted to invite all these like random, crazy, strange people that he'd met. 270 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:07,480 Because he's a filmmaker as well. 271 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,120 So he's like bringing these worlds all the time. 272 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,600 And yeah, from this we became friends. 273 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,320 And at some point he was contacted by an actress who he just did not want to deal with. 274 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,680 He was just like, nah, okay. 275 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:24,400 And he called me, he's like, okay, there's this actress who wants to make a TV series. 276 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,280 Do you want to talk with her? 277 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,720 So I forgot, he's Italian and she was Italian too. 278 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:29,720 Right. 279 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:30,720 And I was like, yeah, sure. 280 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:31,720 Why not? 281 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,440 And she was from the city in Italy that I had been living before I got here. 282 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:35,800 Where all my luggage was still living. 283 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:37,600 I wasn't meant to be in Australia. 284 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,480 You know, I was accidentally here. 285 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,840 So yeah, we got in touch and I went for a coffee with her and she told me the kind of, 286 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,240 she pitched me the TV series that she wanted to do. 287 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,520 And at some point I was like, look, you don't really have any funding or anything. 288 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,760 And you know, to write a TV series can take a year more and we should do it properly. 289 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,440 Like enough of this amateur level. 290 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,280 Like let's do things properly. 291 00:13:58,280 --> 00:13:59,640 So no, I'm not going to do this. 292 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:06,360 But if you want in a very like random rough, like a punk style, we can make a short film. 293 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,360 Yeah. 294 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,440 So we kept talking and I understood, you know, what were the things she was really interested 295 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,360 to talk about from this like massive TV series idea? 296 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,240 What did she actually wanted to say? 297 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,440 And then how could that match with what I wanted to say? 298 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:24,200 And then yeah, she introduced me to this actor that she wanted to work with. 299 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,560 And I made him take me to all these different locations he liked. 300 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,080 And slowly like this, I built the script, kind of talking with both of them and making 301 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,080 the script around both of their personalities, which is anyway how I work. 302 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:40,800 And then, yeah, got some like met some people through friends, like this amazing cinematographer 303 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,880 and I got a friend to do the sound. 304 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:48,840 And yeah, like this very randomly we went into the nature and shot two weekends. 305 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:53,440 And then tragically, the actress who was originally the whole thing, her idea, she actually couldn't 306 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,640 come those weekends because she like was on it. 307 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,720 She didn't understand that she was supposed to tell her agent to block these dates. 308 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:06,080 So she made this huge mess and I was very tempted to just completely change the actress. 309 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,480 But in the end, I was like, no, no, no, it was her original concept, this thing, like 310 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,200 let's finish it with her. 311 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,800 But we had to shoot in a way that she wasn't there. 312 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,680 So using like a body double or yeah, so that was very interesting. 313 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,200 And then the, so the last part of the shooting was actually like months later. 314 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:28,240 I had created this kind of book of all the locations, how we shot them to understand 315 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,280 like how could we match the counter shot with something that could look like the same. 316 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,920 So like me and the DOP did this very nice action actually of scouting around understanding 317 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:37,920 like what could match. 318 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:38,920 Yeah. 319 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:39,920 Yeah. 320 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,160 So then we shot with her for a weekend, which I think also for her must have been crazy 321 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,120 because she had no context for each like shot, you know. 322 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:48,120 Yeah. 323 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:49,920 Sometimes it'd be like, okay, those bushes, put your head near those bushes. 324 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,760 Yes, exactly that bush,

cause it looked like the other bush from the other location, like 325 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:54,760 Newcastle. 326 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,560 We found the matching bush from Newcastle, put your head next to it. 327 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,760 And then like pretend to look up and pretend that you're on a cliff. 328 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:01,760 She'd be like, okay, whoa. 329 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:09,080 So for her like acting, she came from theater, so she could do this kind of imagination work, 330 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:10,080 I think pretty well. 331 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,800 Anyway, yeah, it looks cool. 332 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,080 So still trying to finish that. 333 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,960 Again, same problem as before. 334 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:22,600 No one's really being paid, so everyone has to work in a, you know, capacity. 335 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,520 That's awesome though, because I feel like, you know, the thing you bring the best of 336 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:34,960 both worlds, which is like, you know, independent art style, but also like professionalism and, 337 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:40,000 you know, the proper approach, which I a hundred percent am all for. 338 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:45,520 It drives me mental when I guess it's such a student mentality of like rush it and go 339 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,320 for it. 340 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,520 Which you know, I think happens more when you're young because you think that nothing 341 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,400 could ever go wrong. 342 00:16:54,400 --> 00:17:01,520 And like you just said, things can go wrong all the time, but it's like, yeah, so there's 343 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,400 little mounds of challenges. 344 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:09,640 Like do you, have you ever gone through that stage of, you know, being a filmmaker and 345 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,120 just going, what the fuck am I still doing? 346 00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:13,120 Oh yeah, constantly. 347 00:17:13,120 --> 00:17:14,120 Yeah, absolutely. 348 00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:21,920 Like even yesterday, like, but you know, okay, partly because of this process where we got 349 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,200 a producer coming into that project at the end, you know, after I did the edit, I sent 350 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,080 it to him and he's, oh, I like it. 351 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:29,080 Gave me some feedback. 352 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,920 We kind of went back and forth and he was like, if you want, I can help you produce 353 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:32,920 it. 354 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,400 Like I'll come on as the producer to finish the thing. 355 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,200 But it would have been amazing to have someone from the beginning, cause then you're carrying 356 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,720 the weight of it with someone else, you know, cause really the director and the producer, 357 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,800 the only ones who see the project from the beginning all the way to the end. 358 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,240 So it's pretty lonely without a producer, cause only you are carrying this project on 359 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:49,480 your shoulders. 360 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:55,240 Like the sound guy pops up, does amazing work for those days and then goes home and onto 361 00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:00,680 the next project, you know, like it's more like little segments of the film. 362 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:07,360 So in that sense, it's very tiring if you're on your own on a project, especially like, 363 00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:08,720 it's nice to have someone at the beginning. 364 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:13,280 Like now that I'm working with this guy at the end, I really know like how valuable it 365 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,720 is that I would love someone at the beginning to kind of bounce ideas off of the script. 366 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,720 And with this one, the actress, the wonderful thing that she did, she brought in on someone 367 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,920 she'd worked with before this dramaturg who helped with like warming her up and all this 368 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,160 stuff, but also helped with bouncing ideas of the script. 369 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:30,160 Cause you need that. 370 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,480 You can't just write a script in a box in your room and then like turn up on set and 371 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:34,920 be like, hi, I've got it. 372 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:40,160 Like you need a process for like other people checking in and yeah. 373 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,080 So that's the thing that I think makes a difference when you're working in a more professional 374 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,080 space. 375 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,440 Cause in order to even get the funding, you have to have a certain quality of the script, 376 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:53,360 but it does mean that everything becomes much more standardized, you know? 377 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:59,000 Like in Europe, there's a lot of these film lab, script labs and everything goes through 378 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,000 the same process in some ways and the same people. 379 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,680 So I mean, obviously if you get something like super radical outside the box, they probably 380 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,280 also like love it. 381 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,360 But in some ways everything becomes folded into the same style or the same box and pops 382 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:13,440 out in a kind of similar way. 383 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,840 So actually the cool thing about making something a little bit more punk like this, that yes, 384 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,400 it can end up with a more student aesthetic, but if you do things properly and like film 385 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,800 in a more professional way as much as possible, you can create something that's very like 386 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,200 original and a bit random. 387 00:19:27,200 -->

00:19:28,200 Yeah. 388 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:34,680 But yeah, to answer your question, this doing it by yourself thing is very tiring. 389 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:35,680 Yeah. 390 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:36,680 Why? 391 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:37,680 Why, why, why? 392 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,280 And like why you have to push it every moment and why you have to persuade someone to, because 393 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:43,280 I, yeah, I don't know. 394 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,760 And also in the end you're like, does anyone even want to watch this? 395 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,440 Like I'm just, why don't I just paint a painting, you know? 396 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:55,480 Because if the point is to express your creativity, I can just do something that's so much easier. 397 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:56,480 Yeah. 398 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,160 I think, I think it also makes you though, because the one thing I've always had mind 399 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:07,240 about your level of work and your output is, is that like, you do take things very seriously 400 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:08,240 and you do. 401 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:09,240 I wish I didn't take things so seriously. 402 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:10,240 How nice to just be like, yay! 403 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,520 But I mean, like, it's like, I'm the same. 404 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:20,120 And I think I, it's sort of like to my detriment as well, but it's sort of like my love for 405 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:24,840 film is very like, whether it's paid or unpaid, I just always take it very seriously. 406 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:30,000 And I think that's, you know, not always possible for some people because at the end of the 407 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,920 day, like, yes, you're having fun, but you've got a certain finite amount of shots to get 408 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:40,320 through and you're also on a clock, like of the, you know, depending on light, which I 409 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:46,000 think, but I do like the idea that, you know, like I always think I try to work, especially 410 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,000 with performance. 411 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,080 And I think it comes down to my love of performing is working with similar minded people and 412 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:58,440 fine, you know, it's like cherry picking the people that you're like, Ooh, I love, love 413 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:03,520 working with you because you're very, you know, not like flexible, but you're in line 414 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,000 with like my vision. 415 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:11,560 I think like when, when everyone works on a clock and everyone's ticking along and doing 416 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,120 well, it's more like a smooth ship. 417 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:21,200 And like, I love working with people, especially, you know, operators and creative, like people 418 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,480 who just know distinctly if I'm directing something and they go, Oh, I've got an idea 419 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:25,480 and cool. 420 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,000 And like, everyone actually can chat, not just be like, what do you think director, 421 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,520 because you're the only one who has vision. 422 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:37,680 I'm like, no, like there are about 20 ideas that I could probably think good, but there 423 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,160 might not actually be the best thing for the product in the end. 424 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,640 Do you find, I mean, it's so nice when you couldn't find people that you're working 425 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,400 like almost more like a band, not like when you're making music or jamming that you're 426 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,240 kind of in this collaboration space or like in theater, it's a lot more like this, you 427 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,040 know, this collaborative theater. 428 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,400 And it's nice when film can be like this. 429 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:04,680 I mean, obviously then can be some kind of hierarchy because people like to know what 430 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,480 to do and who's going to follow the project until the end. 431 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,600 But I really like this idea of a much more collaborative. 432 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:11,600 Yeah. 433 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:12,600 Yeah. 434 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:13,600 But then you have to find your people. 435 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:14,600 Yeah. 436 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,800 And then you have to build this community. 437 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:17,800 Yeah. 438 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,240 And for me, that's what's a little bit hard when you're constantly changing country and 439 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,840 working with different kinds of people that you learn a lot. 440 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,160 But then in your mind, you're like, okay, I'll take the cinematographer from that place. 441 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,720 And then I'll take my friend who does amazing sound from all the way over there. 442 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,480 This friend should just come on set because he gives me very good ideas and she can be 443 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,520 there because she's so friendly and makes such good energy. 444 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,800 And like, she is like amazing behind the camera. 445 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:41,800 So she has to come too. 446 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:42,800 Yeah. 447 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:48,320 But you can't do this because she lives in Germany and he lives on a mountain somewhere. 448 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:49,840 How do you build this? 449 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,520 And I don't know, for me, that's something I a little bit miss, to be more rooted and 450 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,440 build a crew from the place where you are, which was cool in the short to kind of start 451 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,280 to put together a group of people that you like to work with. 452 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:02,280 Yeah. 453

00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,480 At the same time, also, every project is a bit different and you are building these families, 454 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:06,480 which is nice. 455 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,480 I mean, I like to work like this. 456 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:13,920 But again, a lot of people prefer big set energy, which is also nice. 457 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,680 I don't know what to do with the big set. 458 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,400 I love small sets. 459 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,880 I love the intimate family vibe. 460 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,480 And I think it's also because I worked in TV for too long. 461 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:33,400 It's probably because my entire department is like a little deranged family. 462 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,920 What department were you working on? 463 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:41,120 So I work in TV, I work in a tech department, which is called Master Control. 464 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:42,600 Wait, Master Control? 465 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:43,600 Yeah. 466 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:44,600 No joke. 467 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,560 It is called Master Control. 468 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:47,560 Interesting. 469 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:48,560 Yeah, I know. 470 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:55,120 And we deal with like fibers and feeds coming out of channel seven. 471 00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:57,380 So we do that on a daily basis. 472 00:23:57,380 --> 00:24:00,320 So we deal with not live news coverage and everything. 473 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:06,760 It's a very, you learn to translate a lot of people and find what people are trying 474 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,960 to say and simplify it for yourself, which I think I love. 475 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,680 That's not a skill that everyone has. 476 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:13,680 Synthesis. 477 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:14,680 Yeah. 478 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,840 It's like, because a lot of people I find take everything that people say verbatim. 479 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,520 I'm like, no, you've got to read the layers between everything. 480 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,480 And I think a lot of the time, when people are learning or they don't know what something 481 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,200 is or they've never worked in a field before, they're like, I don't know what I'm talking 482 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,160 about, but you might be able to understand what I'm saying. 483 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,240 I'm like, well, yes or no. 484 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,720 And that's part of my job is to kind of translate what people are asking for and where they 485 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,640 can receive it and stuff like that. 486 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:44,640 So that's been my last eight years of learning TV. 487 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,960 But I mean, in between everything, I've done photography, I've done film editing, I've 488 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,160 done podcasting, I've done sound. 489 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,560 So I'm kind of like a jack

of all trades. 490 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:54,560 I've done performing. 491 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,440 So like, I kind of, yeah, I love just creating. 492 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,640 So it's like my little like, if tech pays me money, then I get to do everything else 493 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,840 I love outside of that. 494 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:07,840 Have the money work. 495 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:08,840 Yeah, I know. 496 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,880 Well, capitalism, I really rake towards it. 497 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:12,880 I'm like, yeah. 498 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,560 So when someone calls you to be on their crew, you could fill in like many roles. 499 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:17,560 Yeah. 500 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,560 Like the performing, sound recording. 501 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:20,560 Yeah. 502 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,200 What were the other things? 503 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,200 I do producing. 504 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,400 I like, yeah, I'm very good. 505 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:31,440 Like I think, I think my favorite thing is like being said to me mountain countless times 506 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,280 is everyone's like, you're really good at just stringing a bunch of people who have 507 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,240 never met together and making them do. 508 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:38,240 Yeah. 509 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,240 Yeah. 510 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,960 It's like, and doing something and just going do it and getting everyone like really worked 511 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,360 up and excited about an idea. 512 00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:47,600 I love doing that stuff because it's like, well, you know, and I used to have friends 513 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,920 like bring me scripts and go, Hey, what do you think of this? 514 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,960 And I'm like, I love it, let's, let's try and get a bunch of people together and try 515 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:54,960 and make it. 516 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:55,960 Can you make this happen? 517 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:56,960 Yeah, no. 518 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:57,960 You're the make it happen guy. 519 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:58,960 All right. 520 00:25:58,960 --> 00:25:59,960 Got it. 521 00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:00,960 Yeah. 522 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:01,960 Yeah. 523 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:02,960 It's like, it's just like, write this one down. 524 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:03,960 You will make it happen. 525 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:04,960 So watch out. 526 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:05,960 You don't want it to happen. 527 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:06,960 Don't give it to him. 528 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:07,960 Yeah. 529 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:16,160 But no, it's, and I think it's also like interesting because it comes from a lot of my like post 530 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,200 production side, which I loved. 531 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,000 Like I was really good at film editing and in like uni. 532 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,320 So a lot of that came out of that. 533 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,480 I think I like managed to, especially in my year, I've managed to edit one of the most 534 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,600 like difficult films because it was like directed. 535 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,000 So it was like a really well written script and was very particularly directed in a certain 536 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,000 way. 537 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,520 And I think I had to remove an entire scene because, and there were like countless discussions 538 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,520 about whether we should remove it. 539 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,440 And it was like rated by my editing teacher as one of the best he'd seen in years. 540 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,600 And I was like, well, this is a positive. 541 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,960 And it was like me and some other guy, a lovely man called Frank, who was from Scotland and 542 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:54,960 Frank. 543 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:55,960 It's not Frank. 544 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:56,960 It's Frank. 545 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:57,960 Frank. 546 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,960 We do honor to the name. 547 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,040 So I've got to know that Frank was there. 548 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,760 And yeah, he was, he was amazing. 549 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,120 And he also did the other film that I think was picked at the best. 550 00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:13,360 But there were like other ones that, you know, like you got category of best written, best 551 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:18,000 directed and best edited, and I think he and I were like tied for like best edited. 552 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,400 But yeah, we were the ones who were just like loved doing editing class, but also kind of 553 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,200 just ended up probably in predominantly like non editing. 554 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,320 It's always a way when you love editing and you love, but I think I'm so particular as 555 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:33,320 an editor. 556 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,960 I love editing when the director like loves what they've done, not when I don't know what 557 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:38,960 the director loves. 558 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:39,960 Yeah, come on. 559 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,800 Like, it's very hard to edit for someone who doesn't. 560 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:44,800 Yeah, I know. 561 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:50,540 I think it's also like, I sort of being like on and off, I think, you know, like, if anyone 562 00:27:50,540 --> 00:27:53,880 knows my family history, it's like my dad's a photographer. 563 00:27:53,880 --> 00:28:00,400 And that sort of like leverage gives me a little bit of more of an understanding of 564 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,280 like composition and everything. 565 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,760 Because I grew up like sitting around him and just going, okay, well, you spend about 566 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,120 eight hours here and you're taking it on film. 567 00:28:08,120 -->

00:28:13,680 But every time I watch something that hasn't been thought out about composition or I guess 568 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,960 just in terms of what's happening in the scene. 569 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,080 And I think the way I work is I'm very adaptable to everything. 570 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,060 You can't, even if you plan, you can't be too rigid. 571 00:28:25,060 --> 00:28:27,980 It's impossible. 572 00:28:27,980 --> 00:28:31,720 And things go wrong all the time, like things, you know, so you have to kind of think back 573 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,340 doorways and getting out of things. 574 00:28:33,340 --> 00:28:40,120 And I think one of the best experiences I had was, you know, like in between directing 575 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,780 my own stressful things and like producing was just working with children. 576 00:28:44,780 --> 00:28:48,760 Because we had this set where we like literally we weren't knowing if it was going to rain. 577 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,680 And we had a backup plan of shooting indoors. 578 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,880 And I remember the director just went, oh, I haven't really thought of a backup plan. 579 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,200 Like he hadn't even thought of it. 580 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,480 And I was producing and the first idea and I just like came up with a backup plan. 581 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,240 Like we were just like making notes and loving it. 582 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,960 And I think it was all down to just kind of having that mentality of like, well, if something 583 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:16,600 falls over or someone calls in sick or something, there's always like how much time, like how 584 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:17,880 is the quick turnaround? 585 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,920 Can you make something out of like someone not being on set? 586 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,520 And yeah, like the advantages of a few weeks back, I ended up doing sound for one of my 587 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,440 days, which, you know, like I even knew in the day, because the wind was so strong, we 588 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,440 had those like high winds on a Sydney beach and we filmed it. 589 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,960 And I was like, probably most likely I have to ADR it. 590 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,520 But I was like in the back of my head, I was like, well, I'm going to try my best to get 591 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,760 as good enough sound as this is. 592 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,720 But I also know, and I spoke to all of us, I was like, you might have to come back later 593 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,400 and rerecord some of these lines because they are just like, you know, like the wind is 594 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,060 so high no matter what you say. 595 00:29:56,060 --> 00:29:57,660 And you're also physically running. 596 00:29:57,660 --> 00:30:00,520 So it's like, okay, yeah, I know. 597 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,360 I'm like, good luck. 598 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:09,200 So yeah, there's a lot of things that I kind of think outside of that box. 599 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,400 But that's also been, I think, working in a tech department for so long and seeing what 600 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:20,040 it's like with real life TV, and especially like live broadcast, you learn how things 601 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,480 like affect on air so quickly. 602 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:28,600 Like we've had live crosses from like international crosses, you know, and, you know, people get 603 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,160 so funny about things like delay where it's like you're on the other side of the planet. 604 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:37,280 So you know, if no one knows how the satellite works, you shoot a signal up in the sky. 605 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:38,920 That's about a second ago is down again. 606 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,360 That's the second if it's got to jump around the world, it's got to go up again, down again. 607 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,240 So you got three seconds. 608 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,360 People think that's like eternity. 609 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,560 It's actually great because you know, like it means you've got three seconds to work 610 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,600 out a problem before it hits where you're seeing it or you know, if yeah, so it's like 611 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,080 you're constantly ahead of the game. 612 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,280 But yeah, everything I do is like you can fix something 10 seconds before it goes to 613 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:01,840 an air and no one will notice. 614 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,840 Like I've had that happen. 615 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:04,840 So interesting. 616 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:05,840 Yeah. 617 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,640 So it's like, I'm very good at that like Eureka moment. 618 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:10,640 Yeah. 619 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,920 Or like having many, many backup plans that you have to go through very, very fast. 620 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:15,920 Yeah. 621 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,240 And I think, I think it's also like, I try to work with very similar like-minded people 622 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:24,560 because when I've worked, especially because I'm like, whether I'm doing something paid 623 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,120 or free, I always try and get there early or like on time. 624 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,160 Like I try to aim for the two because I think like the lesson you learned in school and 625 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,400 TAFE, which was early is on time and on time is late. 626 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,760 It was a very weird mentality, but I remember that always being the thing. 627 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,600 And I think just because I've been on set where like some people are an hour late or 628 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:49,240 two hours late and you're just like, you do really impact the entirety of the production 629 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,780 if, or like everything. 630

00:31:50,780 --> 00:31:55,680 Like what's the worst like situation other than like an, you know, an actor. 631 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:56,680 Like what's been the worst for you? 632 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:57,680 Oh, for me. 633 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,680 Well, yeah, this actress not even coming to the set. 634 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,760 Literally having to be like, cool, I guess we'll just shoot without her then. 635 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,080 And put her in later somehow. 636 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:08,080 Yeah. 637 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,720 Which have you edited it all out together yet? 638 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:11,720 Yeah, it works. 639 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:12,720 It works? 640 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:13,720 Yeah. 641 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,800 I mean, it made, so I did the first edit, then I gave it to, again, my producer was 642 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,120 already on the project by this time. 643 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,640 This is an editor that he knew who's this really nice director who's also an editor. 644 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,120 And when I gave it to him, he's like, okay, my process, I mean, even though you've done 645 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,640 an edit, that's like a guideline for me. 646 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,760 But I'm going to still look at all the raw material and look at like, look at everything. 647 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,280 I was like, yep, sure. 648 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,560 But just, just a heads up, like some of these scenes I've literally edited it in probably 649 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,800 the only possible way that they can be edited just because of how we shot. 650 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,720 And I wish that there had been a produce on set or like a proper AD to kind of keep track 651 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:49,920 of a lot of things. 652 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,080 Because maybe some of them can be nice to have more cutaways because we were shooting 653 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,120 in this really weird style of how like not being there. 654 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,200 And you know, sometimes you're racing the light, you're tired. 655 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,320 I had to go to like the doctor at some point on the last day. 656 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,600 So we had to finish my mid days and get my doctor appointment. 657 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,920 Everything was just like random. 658 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:13,280 So for the editor, it was kind of like a challenge, you know, for me to edit it first was a challenge. 659 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,280 And then for him to go on. 660 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,880 I'm just trying to think if there were any other experiences like of that level. 661 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,160 No, that was probably, there was a very funny one though when I was, because in Bosnia, 662 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:26,400 we were working on each other's sets. 663 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,800 So I was usually the first AD of the others. 664 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,040 That was like my role. 665 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,840 So everyone, like at the beginning, you're all kind of playing different roles. 666 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,440 And then people understood like who was good at doing which thing. 667 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,480 So like some people, you'd always ask them to be the cinematographer. 668 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,560 Someone you'd always ask to be the sound. 669 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,280 And sometimes it changed a little bit because I mean, all of us could do all of the things, 670 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:45,640 but you kind of fell into the patterns. 671 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,080 And again, like you would kind of shoot with the same people. 672 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,360 Like you liked the energy of this person on set, so you'd bring them on. 673 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,840 And we had a similar experience to what you're describing of like something had gone wrong. 674 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,680 And we're just sitting there like smoking a million cigarettes, having a million coffees, 675 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,040 calling all of these different people with the schedule, me and the director. 676 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:09,600 And it was because in Sarajevo, if you go out the one of the exits of the city, 677 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:15,280 because the city is a valley and it's a split city, the same way the country is split. 678 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,240 So part of it is Republika Srpska, which is the Serbian part. 679 00:34:18,240 --> 00:34:21,240 And part of it is the federation, which is the Bosniak part. 680 00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:26,320 And if you go out one exit of the city, you immediately go into the Republika Srpska part, 681 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,920 who have a different police, a different police. 682 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:29,720 Oh, yeah. 683 00:34:29,720 --> 00:34:34,280 So the part of the road that the director wanted to shoot on, we got the permit. 684 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,160 But the lady who was in charge of production at the school, 685 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,840 she'd only got the permit for the federation, not for that road, 686 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,600 which was actually a Republika Srpska. 687 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,240 And she had kind of like not really realized properly because she was, you know, 688 00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:49,360 making mistakes randomly, but also it was super confusing of like, how do you do this? 689 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,240 And then we were trying to understand that there were different regulations. 690 00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:56,320 Like there was a police escort that we had to have. 691 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:02,080 But then the police escort was only free on Tuesday between like 8 and 8.30, something very random. 692 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,120 And all of these things, there were a hundred other factors. 693 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:06,440 Like the actor was also only

free. 694 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,600 You know how it is, you know, like rescheduling. 695 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,960 So it was so funny, like sitting in this cafe, we're like both of us on the phone, like, 696 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,760 OK, can the police do this? Talking to her, can you organize this? 697 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,360 And like it was such a high energy, like we hung up in our eyes, we're like shining. 698 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,360 We're like, we love this. 699 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,360 It was so funny. 700 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,000 It was like it was just complete chaos. 701 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,360 And like we're looking at the schedule and like, wait, I have an idea. 702 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,160 I was like, my God, this is like this like super AD side of me. 703 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:35,040 That I'm just like so happy to like move the schedule around. 704 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,760 Because in some ways it's very creative as well. 705 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,560 But in this way that you wouldn't really think, you know, like usually you're exploring your creativity in another direction. 706 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:46,960 Yeah. So to like explore this side of like scheduling creativity was like, ooh. 707 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:48,440 Like, look at me rescheduled everything. 708 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,320 Yeah, exactly. Like, wait, how much do you really love that scene? 709 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,920 Like, could we do this? And at some point I was like, yeah, we can cut it. 710 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,480 We can cut it. I was like, no, but I love that scene. 711 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,760 No, it's gone. We cannot have the shop. 712 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,600 Very dramatically, like throwing bits of scripts in the air. 713 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:08,040 So yeah, that was the other time I can think it's very like chaos, chaos arriving. 714 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:14,920 But I don't know, every production has its own little corner of chaos at some point for whatever reason. 715 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:21,400 That just reminds me of like when I had to book like the Helensburg Tunnel a few years back, 716 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:29,920 which is like I found out through trying to book it through the council that it was Crownland and it wasn't owned by council. 717 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,080 It was owned by the Crown. 718 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:32,800 Wait, you had to write to the Queen? 719 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,880 Yeah, it's really felt like that. Yeah, the ex-Queen no longer. 720 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:41,360 And I think it was such a back and forth of just trying to work out who owned it. 721 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:46,520 And then finally I got on to the right people and they were just like, oh, yeah, no, you can have it. 722 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,760 But it was such a I remember just being like sitting there with email chains, 723 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:58,040 like probably

like 50 emails going back and forth of what papers I was meant to fill out and who was meant to fill out what. 724 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,320 And yeah, it's the same like it's the same recently. 725 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:08,160 If you go up to Kayama, Bombo Quarry is owned by the Waterland, 726 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:17,640 Sydney Water as well as Kayama Council, but there's certain sides that they own and there's a split right down the middle. 727 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:24,200 So so there's like all these like, you know, all these famous sites that you're in Australia, like the permits are just nuts. 728 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:29,480 Like there's always like, oh, which side are you filming on? Because that affects how much you know, the charges. 729 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,640 Wow. So you just I'm going to film on the cheap side of the river. 730 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:39,320 Yeah. And basically, I think I got the free side and then we ended up using the costly side because no one was there to stop us. 731 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:44,400 And it was really weird because I always find like permits like you get because it's just easier, 732 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:51,120 but there's always like public access and people always end up there like you never really own the road. 733 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:58,560 But don't you ever wonder like in retrospect, like what if one day someone from that council goes to watch your movie and they're like, 734 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,880 that looks like the blah, blah, blah side. I don't think they paid for that. 735 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,480 Do they have a permission? Like it's not in the credit. You know what I mean? Yeah, I know. 736 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:11,920 It's kind of weird, like fear or guilt that like one day someone from the council will watch your film and realize like, 737 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:17,720 I don't remember them paying for that rock. Yes. What do you mean? They shot there. 738 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:22,880 But there's interesting part of like sometimes you can't put down a tripod, but if you're in a crew of less than five, you can shoot without paying. 739 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:28,520 Yes. So like there's these other like strange corners. They're like, cool. Everything's suddenly very handheld. 740 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:34,920 Yeah. It's like in Sydney, if you want to shoot in Greater Sydney, you don't have a crew more than eight or nine people. 741 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,360 It's pretty big. Well, including cast. Yes. Yeah. Right. 742 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,720 Yeah. So it's quite small and therefore you don't really need a permit. 743 00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:48,840 And like, look, there are some parks that they don't give a crap about, like as long as you don't make up ruckus. 744 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:58,040 But yeah, like a lot of heritage land and everything like that, they do like you signing permits, like because, you know, they just, you know, it's people. 745 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,320 They just like to know that their land is being used and where it's going to be advertised. 746 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:08,160 But it is a funny process. I've done it too many times. I've done it so many times. 747 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:14,360 And I think like one of my favourite friends from uni helped a lot with it because he used to work in the tax office. 748 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:20,400 And so he would be the one who kind of like helped me understand a lot of the legalities. 749 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:26,280 Because, yeah, had I learnt straight out of uni, I wouldn't have had a clue what I was doing. 750 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:27,920 Because like no one ever teaches you. 751 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,080 Yeah. Like where do you learn this stuff? I mean, unless you go and intern in a production office. 752 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,880 OK, that's probably, yeah, that's where you learn it. 753 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,040 That's when you learn. Yeah, I know. 754 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:45,600 Because, yeah, like though with your like filmmaking and everything, like because did you, you've done performing as well. 755 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,640 Like you're a bit of a performer. 756 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,800 Would you call you like what kind of performer would you call yourself? 757 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,040 A failed one. Completely failed. 758 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,840 Who changed side of the camera. 759 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:05,240 No, yeah, I never think of myself anymore as a performer until I accidentally perform and I'm like, I love this. 760 00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:09,280 Yeah, it's really something. Yeah, I left behind when I changed side of camera. 761 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,280 No, yeah, I actually that's not true. 762 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,560 I didn't really because the first film I was acting in it. 763 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,680 Yes. But my main energy was on directing it and then all that. 764 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,960 Like I was kind of in it even to kind of support the guy who was acting. 765 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:30,880 So I understood that like instead of telling him what to do, who was a non actor, I could feed him energy and feed him lines by being there with him. 766 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,560 And, you know, we'd talked about it and like this. 767 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,880 But then, of course, you couldn't direct him because you were there in the scene. 768 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,520 It's not going to be like, excuse me, you have to say that better to me. 769 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,520 No, you're in the shot. It doesn't work. 770 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,960 So it's a different way of directing by jumping literally in. 771 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,720 And we had a very good connection, like really trustful, full of trust. 772 00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:53,840 Yeah. Trusting connection. 773 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,400 So that really helped. But yeah, I

don't think of myself as a performer much anymore. 774 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,640 But yeah, I really like it still. 775 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:11,000 I was accidentally in a shooting in Italy and I was kind of like, I hope someone spots me. 776 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,320 I hope someone asks me to do more of this work because it's very easy and very fun. 777 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,960 Yeah. Easy, I mean, because I wasn't doing anything. 778 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,280 I'm not saying the work is easy because, you know, you have to do a lot of stuff. 779 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:28,680 But I also think like when you're acting, you have to have a very specific relationship with your own emotions. 780 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:33,920 And having done acting or like from when I was a kid, I was doing like speech and drama. 781 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:40,360 So you're kind of studying how to use the voice or how to move in the space, how to improvise this kind of stuff. 782 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:47,560 It's usually just solo. But anyway, you give a lot or don't give a lot. 783 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,680 But you are using your emotions and using your like muscle memory and emotional memory. 784 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:58,480 And if you aren't emotionally OK, it can really make a huge mess. 785 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:06,480 Yeah. For yourself, you know, or you can just be shit because you try and get there emotionally and you just can't because in yourself, you haven't explored that side of your emotions. 786 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,880 So it's a big thing to ask someone to act for you. 787 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:18,160 And because I've been on that side of it, I feel like I can understand better as a director, like what I'm actually asking them to do. 788 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,480 Which is also, yeah, it's important because there has to be this kind of trust. 789 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,400 Yeah. Yeah. 790 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:32,960 Because like with your own emotions and everything, you know, especially with creating, like it's a very, I think, very vulnerable thing to do, 791 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,080 especially write stories, because there's a little bit of element. 792 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:42,760 Like, even though you're like, oh, I write them around people I know and stuff, there's always a little bit of element of ourselves in everything that we do. 793 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,440 Like, how in touch are you with your own emotions? 794 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,960 Getting better. In terms of like work stuff, 795 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,400 I feel you're always making your best work when you're going home in your work. 796 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:02,800 So you're making from a place of very much your reality, even if it's not a physical reality, maybe it's an emotional reality. 797 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,720 But there has to be something true that comes from you in this space. 798 00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:16,200 But yeah,

it took me a long time to kind of let myself be vulnerable in all the way, but also not really like this. 799 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,360 First of all, I made it was like incredibly revealing. 800 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:23,280 And in some ways it's like, cool, maybe I can't talk about my emotions, but I can put them in a film. 801 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:29,840 So then you also have this strange game of like, maybe instead of this film, you should just do some therapy. 802 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:35,040 Because, like, you know, it's a product, people pay and watch it and they pay you to do it. 803 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:41,360 So people have to want to watch something, it has to be visual, visible. 804 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:48,920 So there's also this space of like the films that are maybe like private personal films that are a kind of like just creative outlet 805 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:54,360 that can be like essay films or these kind of things that don't take a lot of money to make or produce and maybe no one will ever watch them. 806 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,440 But they're also part of the creative process, they're like the side projects you have to do. 807 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:04,040 And for me, this is a very nice like process of the emotions to put certain films or projects like this. 808 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:04,560 Yeah. 809 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:11,120 That maybe are not for the consumption of the others, because I would never ask someone to like watch my therapy diary or whatever. 810 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:11,840 Yeah. 811 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:20,040 But that... And also like this practice of combining images, it for me is very relaxing. 812 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:27,280 So often I am doing collage, physically combining images, because it's very similar process. 813 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,320 And again, it's a way to like meditate on a person or an idea. 814 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:31,360 Yeah. 815 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:32,600 And it's not a very profound thing. 816 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:37,240 I mean, Pinterest is already doing this, you know, like you're just making a mood board, it's not really profound at all. 817 00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:38,280 Yeah, whatever. 818 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:39,440 But I really like it. 819 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:39,760 Yeah. 820 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,880 And this as well helps me to process the emotions. 821 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:43,480 Yeah. 822 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:44,160 Yeah. 823 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:51,360 Do you like... Because that must be difficult in some ways as well. 824 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,880 I mean, I collect a shit ton of paper everywhere I go. 825 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:54,360 Yeah. 826 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:55,920 Wait, are we talking about collaging or what? 827 00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,680 Both, collaging and therapy, self-therapy. 828 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,080 Because I mean, like, you know, I think like... 829 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:05,640 Love you. 830 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,560 No, seriously, like, I literally came back here and unpacked my bag and I'm like, 831 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,240 ah, all of these images I collected last time. 832 00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:16,320 I was so happy to find this like giant stack of like useless paper. 833 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:22,920 I mean, do you feel like, you know, that are you one of those like people who just goes, 834 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:28,240 oh, you know, like trauma is what defines my filmmaking or like, you know, 835 00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:34,080 because I know a lot of people talk about like, you know, I guess the trauma artist that, you know, 836 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,920 like, especially when we make film. 837 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:43,120 And I know I'm a big advocate of mental health, but I've noticed the other side of the coin, 838 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,280 which is like, what's it, you know, being called a drama queen or everything like that, 839 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:52,600 or, you know, like, you know, like Em's father gets worried and, you know, 840 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:58,480 and I'm like, destigmatizing a lot of like pent up things. 841 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:03,480 But when I do remember like a lot of friends being like, troubled artist tonight. 842 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,160 You know, art is my soul and my torment. 843 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:14,480 And I don't know, I just like, I don't, I don't feel like anything that I've ever created is really like, 844 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,400 truly, I think they're always elements, but I don't like, 845 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,720 though it's interesting that you say that because I think with this podcast, 846 00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:27,560 I've talked more openly about anything than I even probably like told my therapist really in one setting, 847 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,680 because it's like this recording booth that has no judgment. 848 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,480 And like, it's talking into the black box. 849 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,920 Yeah, it's a little bit like that. 850 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:43,920 But yeah, it's a funny process because I think there's like a huge misconsumption, 851 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:50,320 like miscommunication, like assumption of, you know, like that, you know, 852 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:55,840 what we do or how we deal with things is like not based on sort of some sort of like, you know, 853 00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:00,360 we're always happy or we're always enjoying what we do and then we don't have any like downtime 854 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:05,200 and like doing little art things like collages and, you know, collecting ideas is like, 855 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:11,840 I just sort of like write notes and sometimes like organizing a schedule is like really therapeutic to me. 856 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,720 I'm like, oh, now I know my week. 857 00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:18,720 Like, I find those more therapeutic than I

do actually, like sometimes making a film. 858 00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:22,040 I find that way more stressful. 859 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:30,120 Actually, yeah, for me, like a lot of time I have trouble differentiating between reality and fantasy. 860 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:30,760 Really? 861 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,800 Very, very in my head and very floating. 862 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:39,720 So there's something very beautiful in the writing process because you're in pure fantasy, you know, 863 00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:45,520 and obviously part of the process, the way I'm writing is pulling it into something that's filmable 864 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,440 and that can be real and that can be made together because of the way I like to work. 865 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,000 You're making it together. 866 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:56,880 So it's almost like two processes, one and some piece of me is like, why don't you just be an author? 867 00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,320 Again, just because you want to, not for anyone to read, but like do that too, 868 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:05,840 like write random stories that are set maybe in space, something that is just not going to happen when you film it. 869 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:10,160 Because in some ways, the way my film process is also limiting to what I can imagine. 870 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,840 Yes, you can only film what can be filmed. 871 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:17,040 Yeah, small budget, small crew and together. 872 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:22,640 But yeah, I mean, I love that. 873 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,240 I was going to ask, what do you like love? 874 00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:27,880 What goes on in your head? 875 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,720 What's the sort of normal thought process, especially like with genres and ideas? 876 00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:34,520 What, like, where do they all come from? 877 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:35,720 Oh yeah, I remember why I said this before. 878 00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:41,840 So it's connected to this question that, sorry, I'm really tired. 879 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,760 An image comes into my mind and then it disappears. 880 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,560 This is to answer why I'm not answering directly and also to answer the question directly. 881 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,520 It's both. An image comes into my mind and then it disappears. 882 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,680 And it's like on some subconscious level as an archive of images. 883 00:48:54,680 --> 00:49:00,400 And some of them have already fit themselves into different stories that at some point will be made or will not be made. 884 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,360 Because a lot of films exist in your head and you see them the entire thing. 885 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,200 But maybe you would just never make it. 886 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,600 And that's also fine. 887 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:17,640 But yeah, so there's often these very strong images, like from a dream or even from dreams. 888 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:22,600 And then it's a process kind of like collaging of understanding how these fit together. 889 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:30,200 And for me, because it's quite a subconscious process, it actually helps me to look at what photos I've been taking recently. 890 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,000 Or at what images I've been pulling out of the pile of images that I collect. 891 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,240 It's almost like reading the tarot. 892 00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:39,200 You read the Tarot Key and you're like, OK, here is this that's come out. 893 00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:40,880 And you're like, how strange. 894 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:45,200 So like for a period, there were these, I was like what you're naturally very drawn to, 895 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:49,560 like when you meditate and you open your eyes and where your mind kind of fixes straight on. 896 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,080 So a lot of it is kind of like this. 897 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:55,120 And then there's also these logical things like, OK, yeah, I know I'd like to make a film in this place. 898 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:56,600 So like I'd like to make a film like with this actor. 899 00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,360 I was like, I want me to make a film with this actress. 900 00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:03,360 So like, how do I combine her and who she is with these ideas that I'm interested in exploring, 901 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,080 with these images that have been popping up around and in my mind? 902 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:13,160 Yeah. So it's this kind of, yeah, like collaging, collating process of bringing all these elements together 903 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:18,800 to then write something or make something, which, yeah, or just not write something and make something. 904 00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,760 Like write it and then never make it, because that's also like definitely reality. 905 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,440 Just like keep doing that. 906 00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:31,160 Especially if it takes two years to make it, you know, like I'm at a point now where I'm actually going to write a bunch of projects 907 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,440 and then go in this more professional angle of like pitching for funding for them. 908 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:41,600 Because it's tiring to be in this space where you have these ideas and you have this vision, 909 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,560 but it's going to take so long or you're limited. 910 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:53,520 And it's like, okay, better to go more slowly and focus on one or even put like two or three seeds out into the world 911 00:50:53,520 --> 00:51:00,960 and see what comes back rather than like freezing up and be like, oh, I'm not going to write it until I have the actors and locations. 912 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,840 Yeah. Just write something and put the seeds out there. 913 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,200 Then you can develop it more if there's some feedback coming back. 914 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:08,680

Yeah, I agree with that. 915 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,640 I think I always encourage people to write as well. 916 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,560 Never stop really like writing. 917 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:21,320 I sort of always thought outside the box of just giving people challenges. 918 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:26,520 I'm very good at giving people challenges because I'll go to them like if I ever want anyone to like challenge themselves, 919 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,120 I go, here's like write a story. 920 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,760 Here's your limitations of what you can do. 921 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,840 Actually, there's a really cool director who made a book about this. 922 00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:42,480 It's called like something like, let's say, 52 situations. 923 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:51,760 And he looked in all there was an essay written about, I want to say theater, maybe fiction books, 924 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,040 that there are only a certain kind of narratives and certain kind of stories. 925 00:51:55,040 --> 00:52:00,640 So he adapted that to cinema and he's like, okay, there's only like, let's say, 52 different situations that can happen. 926 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,040 And then he made these playing cards that come with the book. 927 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:08,320 And there's this game that you can play that you just like take out three situations and then you have to write a script based on those three situations. 928 00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:09,040 It's really cool. 929 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:10,920 Oh, wow. 930 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:12,120 It's like an exercise. 931 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,840 I mean, it sucks if you're like, murder, betrayal, incest. 932 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,320 You're like, cool, that's not what I wanted to make a film about today. 933 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,600 But they are the key things in the story. 934 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,960 Let's begin. 935 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:40,320 I mean, my favorite films tend to probably be quite like human based as well as like a look into, you know, 936 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,360 kind of what the main character is going, like a character study. 937 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,080 I love character study films. 938 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:55,280 And I particularly like, I think it's always helped because, you know, like growing up watching a lot of late night SBS movies, 939 00:52:55,280 --> 00:53:00,240 which were just, you know, like on TV back when kids watch Free to Air. 940 00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:01,160 I remember Free to Air. 941 00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:02,480 I was imagining it the other day. 942 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,400 I was like, return on your TV and there'd just be things showing. 943 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:05,880 Yeah. 944 00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,360 And they would be halfway through and there'd only be five options. 945 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,400 Yeah. And you just kind of kept with it. 946 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,880 You didn't argue. 947 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:18,160 No, that was my entire childhood. 948 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,520 And I think, you know, 90s kid. 949 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:25,560 And I think like, you know, this is the thing about streaming and so on and so forth. 950 00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:32,480 But I was watching like, I think what I love, especially about like independent art form as well as like, you know, 951 00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:37,720 it's a mixture between like professionalism, you know, and independent form is like, you know, 952 00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:43,080 directors who can do both or like, you know, you know, you have that indie feel to them, 953 00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:46,160 but also have a layer of truth and character study and everything. 954 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:52,880 And I think it's funny, like, you know, with the world being glossed over by superhero films and stuff, 955 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,720 which sort of like feels a little bit mediocre now. 956 00:53:56,720 --> 00:54:00,160 Yeah, it's confusing why this is still a thing. 957 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:05,120 I think it's because a lot of kids just like shiny things. 958 00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:10,200 It's odd. Like, how is it possible they keep popping out more superhero films, but also for adults, no? 959 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,000 Like all of them. And I'm so confused. 960 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,240 Like, so didn't we already have like eight of these? 961 00:54:14,240 --> 00:54:14,520 Yeah. 962 00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:15,840 And aren't they all a bit the same? 963 00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:17,160 Maybe they're not, because I actually haven't watched them. 964 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:21,720 So maybe they're all like doing, you know, different kinds of character study. 965 00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:24,760 I mean, I'm sure they are different plots, but... 966 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:26,080 I've watched all of them. 967 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,960 And sometimes when they do it right, they do it right. 968 00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,920 And then sometimes when they do it wrong, I'm like, OK, that was nice. 969 00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:37,640 But it's because they are drawing on this this fan base of these comics, right? 970 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:39,920 Like they're not inventing these stories or these characters. 971 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:44,240 No, I think they're only about like the only invention they have is like writing their own 972 00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:47,600 like connection to it all, but like to make a bigger thing. 973 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,400 But I think like, you know, like. 974 00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,080 You know, the fact that it's all owned by Disney conglomerate now and, you know, like, 975 00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,800 and I and I think because like I was watching 976 00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:03,320 every time I watch like Star Wars or stuff right now, I just kind of 977 00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:04,960 I'm a bit worn out. 978 00:55:04,960 -->

00:55:08,280 I like I love the original trilogy and I think I reason I love it. 979 00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,960 And it's the same with like Indiana Jones and stuff like old movies 980 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,960 was because they were kind of made from the ground up. 981 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:14,960 They knew what they were. 982 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,520 They were made very cheap. 983 00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:22,240 Like I love the fact that Star Wars, the first one was made by George Lucas. 984 00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:24,280 And he basically said, I don't care about money. 985 00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,480 All I want is merchandise rights. 986 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:28,840 And he made bank off just merchandise. 987 00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,240 Like, you know, that was the smart. 988 00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:33,040 Like he was a businessman, he knew. 989 00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,240 But the same like I watched. 990 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,120 I go girl watching Alfred Hitchcock and a lot of those films, 991 00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,840 some of them look really cheap and then some of them look like amazing. 992 00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:44,720 Especially like that. 993 00:55:44,720 --> 00:55:47,080 It was really interesting because when he went to Hollywood, 994 00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:49,480 he didn't like it that much. 995 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,480 Like there was a few films that he like were very particularly Hollywood. 996 00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:57,320 And he actually struggled more with that than he did with making films 997 00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,760 outside of the Hollywood brand, like Psycho, which I think 998 00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:04,440 was the most controversial film because he killed his main character off 999 00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,200 in the first like 20 minutes. 1000 00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,000 And everyone was like, what the fuck are you doing? 1001 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,840 Like, you can't do that, even though it happened in the book. 1002 00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,600 Like it happened and he took it solely from, you know, like material. 1003 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,000 But yeah, apparently, according to the execs department, they were very 1004 00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,680 annoyed that he did it even in the film. 1005 00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:22,680 It's radical action. 1006 00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:24,040 Yeah, I know. 1007 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,280 But, you know, like there's all these films that I sort of like look back on to. 1008 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:29,440 And I think. 1009 00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,720 You know, like I think one of my favorite 1010 00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,080 Robert Eggers is one of my favorite directors at the moment, because 1011 00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:43,720 he's a, you know, production designer, you can really tell by like Lighthouse. 1012 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:44,920 Weird. 1013 00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:46,200 I love that film. 1014 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:47,000 It's so cool. 1015 00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,280 It's so good. 1016 00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:52,520 Like William Defoe and Robert Patterson are like. 1017 00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:54,120 What a crazy combination. 1018 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:58,360 I know. But if you like, OK, like if in the moment of Twilight, you were like 1019 00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:03,200 this guy who's being this weird vampire thing, he's going to end up in this 1020 00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:08,040 like dark, crunchy film with William Defoe and in like 10 years. 1021 00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:08,760 I don't know how long it was. 1022 00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:10,480 Yeah, but he was like, no. 1023 00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,000 But it's also just like, I think the thing was I went to go and see it 1024 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,680 with a friend who didn't expect halfway through to see Robert Patterson 1025 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:22,120 masturbating to a mermaid like like or having sex with one. 1026 00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,000 I go back to the same thought, like go back to Twilight time. 1027 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,080 Yeah. In 10 years, this is what he's going to be doing. 1028 00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:29,920 And you're like, wait, what? 1029 00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:32,280 I think it was like, you know, like way wackier. 1030 00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:34,280 But I think the thing I love about Robert Patterson, 1031 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,600 he's like always said in interviews, like give me weird scripts, 1032 00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:41,400 like give me like weird fucking things because he like he loves independent film. 1033 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:42,600 So does William Defoe. 1034 00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,600 Like William, though, is like a huge independent actor. 1035 00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:46,640 Lives in Rome, you know. 1036 00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,560 Yeah, he does. 1037 00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:51,880 He was in Abel Ferrara's film of some years ago, Thomas. 1038 00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,960 So, yes, playing Abel, which is kind of crazy. 1039 00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:56,120 Yeah, the court that's. 1040 00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:56,520 Yeah. 1041 00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,920 I'm with with Abel's wife and kid in the film. 1042 00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:00,440 Just kind of crazy, too. 1043 00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:02,000 Wow. Interesting. 1044 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,400 He's had a career. 1045 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,880 Doesn't he speak a few languages? 1046 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,200 He tries to speak Italian. 1047 00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:09,880 Fails. 1048 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:10,880 No, no, he's he's good. 1049 00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:12,040 Like he speaks it. 1050 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,160 But it's hard to act in a different language. 1051 00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:15,440 Yeah. 1052 00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:18,160 I don't know how often he's acting a film completely in Italian. 1053 00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:19,160 Yeah. 1054 00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,560 How's it because you live in

Italy now. 1055 00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:22,600 How good is your Italian? 1056 00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:23,440 It's OK. 1057 00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,120 Yeah, I can survive. 1058 00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,560 Do you feel like you've picked up an accent now at the time? 1059 00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,680 Apparently, in the last period, I got a Milan accent. 1060 00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,240 Yeah, which is not popular for the rest of Italy. 1061 00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:37,680 But that's that's where I've been living. 1062 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:39,480 So I absorbed this. 1063 00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,360 You very like because I feel like this is where your performer comes out. 1064 00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,200 You just adapt a bit. 1065 00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:45,160 Yeah. Yeah. 1066 00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,160 Like also with the body language. 1067 00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:52,000 And it's it's a bit confusing because I mean, I'm not Italian, 1068 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,560 so I don't have to think in this way. 1069 00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,040 Or and I don't really go all the way to the thought level. 1070 00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:01,400 But in terms of like certain attitudes, it's like I actually don't feel like that. 1071 00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,680 Like, why do I have to behave in this way? 1072 00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,040 But it's like you're absorbing so much of the surroundings 1073 00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,600 that kind of pops out in different in different ways. 1074 00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:11,480 Yeah. But it's kind of fun with the language, actually, 1075 00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,200 if you absorb the face of the language, not that 1076 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,480 maybe you don't have so much vocabulary, 1077 00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,840 but you're doing the right facial expressions or like the right 1078 00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:28,400 like like these strange noises that happen or like certain ways of replying 1079 00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,800 or like certain kind of slang that isn't really even slang. 1080 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:33,920 It's things that more like children say. Yeah. 1081 00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,880 And if you start to do those things, you actually don't have to speak 1082 00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,160 that much of the language and people will think that you understand them really well 1083 00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,040 and that you can you can speak much more than you can, 1084 00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:44,720 which is quite interesting. 1085 00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:46,880 It's kind of performative side of language. 1086 00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:48,640 Oh, my God. It's really interesting. 1087 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:49,680 I really like this. 1088 00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,320 I feel I spend more time learning that than trying to like learn vocab. 1089 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:56,400 Because you're like, what's the right sound effect for the situation? 1090 00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,600 No. Why don't you just learn some adjectives? 1091 00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:01,600 No, I must know. 1092 01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:04,000 Oh, my God. 1093 01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:05,360 Objectives are overrated. 1094 01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:09,200 I know. It's like, you know, I think that's really interesting. 1095 01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:13,120 I like also that you talked about your, you know, coming back to Sydney 1096 01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:17,760 and also like loving where you live now and having less connection to Australia 1097 01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:19,840 than you used to. 1098 01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:24,560 Do you think then like what brings you always back here? 1099 01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,440 What's what's the main reasons that you come back to Australia these days? 1100 01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:30,600 Interesting. Each time a bit different. 1101 01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,720 So the first time the first made my COVID essentially. Yeah. 1102 01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,760 Now I've come back for work and work on a documentary 1103 01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:41,240 that will shoot a bit in in the north. 1104 01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:42,760 And also, I wanted to come back. 1105 01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,360 I have friends here now and like have a nice community here. 1106 01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,880 It's Christmas. So family stuff. 1107 01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:53,480 Previously, I was coming back more like, yeah, it's time to visit my family. 1108 01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:55,440 I haven't been back to Australia for a while. 1109 01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,600 Or like it's time to figure out how to finish university, you know? 1110 01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:00,640 So more like life admin or family things. 1111 01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:05,320 But yeah, being here for two years forced to be here. 1112 01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:07,240 Like it definitely wasn't my choice, let's say. 1113 01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,520 I wouldn't have thought to come back. 1114 01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:14,160 But it was a very good action because to like, we put down the roots now, 1115 01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:16,720 because since this time of when we met in university, 1116 01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:18,320 I hadn't really been back for two years. 1117 01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:20,560 I'd been back for two months, three months, you know? 1118 01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,080 And you grow a lot since that time and you change. 1119 01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:25,400 And I had changed what I was doing and changed major. 1120 01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,400 So you kind of drift apart from those friends that you know, 1121 01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:30,560 at least I did from the people I'd met then. 1122 01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:34,680 Still, like, love to catch up with them, but you've gone in different directions now. 1123 01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:37,600 And that's, you know, that's fine. That's what life does. 1124 01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:43,160 So, yeah, it was very beautiful to come back and make new connections with Australia. 1125

01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:46,880 Still with some old friends, but then having new characters and a new reality. 1126 01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:52,920 Even if like, there's also this odd awareness that because I've been so long away now, 1127 01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:59,480 I'm able to live here as an expat in a way that I hadn't before. 1128 01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:00,880 Not... 1129 01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:03,120 I think it's more of a mentality. 1130 01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:06,720 It's like, doesn't really change anything I do physically or like anything really. 1131 01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:11,760 But in the sense of like, let's take advantage of these amazing things that are in Australia. 1132 01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:15,760 Whereas in the past, I was like, OK, like, I guess I'll just be here. 1133 01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,320 Now it's like, oh, so cool that there's like this amazing place to swim. 1134 01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,360 We're like, how amazing the nature here. 1135 01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,480 Oh, let's go and have like a picnic on the cliffs. 1136 01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:26,360 Like, ah, let's play music in this location. 1137 01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,160 How cool. And like exploring and going around. 1138 01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,160 And that definitely wasn't my attitude before. 1139 01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:37,880 And really, like here, there is such a good nature, you know. 1140 01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:42,880 In the in the middle of the city, like we're living in such a crazy place 1141 01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:48,280 to have the ocean like right there that you just don't have really anywhere else. 1142 01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:50,680 Maybe in Portugal a bit. 1143 01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:51,680 Yeah. 1144 01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:54,280 But to have a city like this is really incredible. 1145 01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:56,880 So, yeah, it's cool to reconnect to this. 1146 01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:02,080 I love that you're kind of like a tourist in, you know, like your own city. 1147 01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:04,880 It's it's kind of the way to be. 1148 01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:05,880 It's a nice way to be. 1149 01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:07,880 It's a nice way to live. Yeah. 1150 01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:12,880 Like, I mean, tourist is maybe one step too far, but I mean, but no, but at the same time, yes, why not? 1151 01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:14,880 Because like Sydney is massive. 1152 01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:16,880 Yeah. Like there's so many national parks inside the city. 1153 01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:18,880 Yeah. 1154 01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:20,880 There's all like the Blue Mountains, the Royal National Park. 1155 01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:25,880 And I don't know, I had never really explored like this side of my interests in Sydney before. 1156 01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,880 Like when I was in university, I was just here in the West. 1157 01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:30,880 Yeah. 1158 01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:32,880 Yeah. And this like city like, oh, cool. 1159 01:03:32,880 -->

01:03:33,880 Like, what's the cool new bar? 1160 01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:34,880 What's the cool cafe? 1161 01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:35,880 Yeah. 1162 01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:39,880 I think it's also like remembering you back in the day versus you now. 1163 01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:48,880 Like I can see, like I can see the difference because like, yeah, it was very you back then from like, you know, I was very young as well. 1164 01:03:48,880 --> 01:04:00,880 But I think it's like, you know, you did see that kind of like, like a little bit more like Sydney, Sydney kind of whatever, like uni work, uni work, like I'm going to get away from all this anyway. 1165 01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:08,880 And there was less of a connection. And I think now it's like you've come back with just like bright eyes and kind of like excitement. 1166 01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,880 I think it's an attitude now. 1167 01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:12,880 Yeah. 1168 01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:24,880 Because also at that time, like I was super into wanting to be in China and wanting to be in that place, even if it wasn't actually China, but that kind of place where you're interacting with people from all over the world, like this very international feeling. 1169 01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:34,880 And so Sydney wasn't stimulating me in that way. And because I was very interested in this more like urban landscape, Sydney wasn't stimulating that either. 1170 01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:39,880 And now it's like, OK, well, why don't you just be stimulated by the reality that you're in? 1171 01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:44,880 So, I mean, Sydney has this amazing side of it. That's that's great. 1172 01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:54,880 And actually, I don't know, it's also like a slow change in pathway, you know, to kind of go a bit more back towards the nature and towards the ocean. 1173 01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:59,880 And it's so nice. Like it's something I really missed this period in Europe, like to not have the ocean there. 1174 01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:03,880 It's something very crazy here. 1175 01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:09,880 And also like what's nice here is you can meet your friends for free, you know? 1176 01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:10,880 Yeah. 1177 01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,880 And I know that a lot of people like to meet their friends in a bar or a pub or for a coffee. 1178 01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:21,880 But here, like you can meet your friend on a cliff or like in a park by the ocean or in a park, not by the ocean anywhere. 1179 01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:27,880 And you can be in such a nice. I think actually it also depends if it's raining or not. 1180 01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:32,880 I understand it's been raining like constantly this last year and the last years. 1181 01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:39,880 But when it's not raining, theoretically, you can meet anywhere and not pay to see your friends, which I also really appreciate. 1182 01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,880 Yeah, you're not kind of like told you can't sit in the park or you know. 1183 01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:50,880 Yeah. Or like, I don't know, in Milan, there's not so many options for this. 1184 01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:55,880 So it's like, OK, I have to. I mean, it's not like a coffee. I mean, it's one euro coffee. 1185 01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:59,880 So it's not. But conceptually, I like the idea that you can go for a walk with your friend. 1186 01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:03,880 And I think that changed a bit here in Covid because I never thought of Australia in that way before. 1187 01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:05,880 It was still a thing. They're like, hey, let's meet for a coffee. 1188 01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:09,880 And then in Covid, it was like, let's meet for a walk. Yeah. This is so much better. 1189 01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:13,880 Yeah. So it's nice to walk and talk. It's nice to think and be in the nature, even if it's in this. 1190 01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:18,880 I don't know. I think for me, Covid changed a lot of how I was seeing the city. 1191 01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:27,880 Yeah, it's interesting. I always sort of think that Covid is one of those things that really changed how I saw people in a good way. 1192 01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:37,880 Not in a negative way, but I think it was like it also made me just really appreciate the effort that people put in as well. 1193 01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:44,880 And kind of just like what I got out of it as well, because I was living on my own for two years. 1194 01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:49,880 So I just had this hunker down. No one other than my parents I went to see. 1195 01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:54,880 And so that really taught me a lot about who came into my life, who came out of my life. 1196 01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,880 And now there's friends that I don't even speak to. 1197 01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:02,880 I'm quite similar to you as in like I just drift away from some people and that's fine. 1198 01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:06,880 Like I've just accepted that kind of like, you know, and there's new people. 1199 01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:14,880 Like I'm constantly making new friends all the time because I'm like, you know, I think it's exciting to live that way. 1200 01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:20,880 And, you know, there's so many people I haven't met yet and we'll meet one day. 1201 01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:27,880 But yeah, like I do, you know, like I think you just, COVID's really helped connect with people on very different levels than it used to. 1202 01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:34,880 Like I think I don't, you know, talk about super, I want to say superficial things, but you're not talking about similar interests. 1203 01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:42,880 You're kind of almost talking about life experiences and, you know, and things that actually feel a bit more character defining than you just being like, oh, I like this show. 1204 01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:43,880 Yeah, me too. 1205 01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:50,880 It's like, yeah, now I'm just like, you know, because everyone was living the same life for

like two years. 1206 01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:55,880 It kind of really taught you to kind of really open up and, you know, communicate properly. 1207 01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,880 Yeah, actually, yeah, that's a good point. I didn't think of it like that. 1208 01:07:58,880 --> 01:07:59,880 Yeah. 1209 01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:04,880 The subject matter of the conversation becomes deeper somehow. 1210 01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:12,880 I mean, like I definitely lost friends because of how like how open I became, which, you know, I don't take as a bad thing, but I definitely like, you know, 1211 01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:22,880 when I talked about my like life experiences, my own mental health and everything, I think it was just like, some people didn't, you know, like come to terms with their own experiences in life and therefore just like, 1212 01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:28,880 like my favorite term is I got put into the too hard basket, which is always my favorite term. 1213 01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:40,880 And I think it just made me appreciate like things that I do and the things that I love was really from COVID because I like, you know, like I think when before COVID, I really had the busyness of life. 1214 01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:51,880 I really hated this sort of like sense of you do everything, you had to meet deadlines, like you had to be a certain age to do things like you got to do it all before you're 30, you know, like, and now I just don't care. 1215 01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:53,880 Like I'm just very like. 1216 01:08:53,880 --> 01:09:00,880 But yeah, well, this is before you're 30. For me, what I really appreciated was you didn't have to have a plan anymore. 1217 01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:05,880 It was always so hard. Everyone was like, so what are you planning to do? What's the next step? 1218 01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:12,880 I didn't know when it arrives, it will happen, you know, but you always had to have a next step and have the next idea of like, where are you going to go next? 1219 01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:16,880 Or even like how am I going to deal with my visa? Everything, anything like this. 1220 01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:23,880 And in COVID, that was all kind of deleted, at least for me, also because coming back in Australia, back to Australia, I didn't need to worry about a visa anymore. 1221 01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:28,880 So that was great for one thing, for sure. That was amazing. 1222 01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:36,880 But to not be able to plan, which in some ways was pretty stressful, but on other ways was like so liberating. 1223 01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:41,880 It was like, yeah, I don't know what's going to happen in six months. Am I going to be here? Can we leave yet? Who knows? 1224 01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:49,880 But I'm here now. It was almost like all of this like meditation concepts and ideas of being present were like thrown in your face. 1225 01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:55,880 It's like, OK, now you actually have to live like that. Do that meditation, Buddhist stuff, that thing you were thinking about. 1226 01:09:55,880 --> 01:10:02,880 Yeah, actually live like that now. So pretty nice. I really liked it. 1227 01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:05,880 Because do you classify yourself as very spiritual? 1228 01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:11,880 Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, classify myself. I don't like to put names on things. 1229 01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:16,880 You don't watch a label, are you? I really struggle with actually. But yeah, I would say I'm spiritual. 1230 01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:27,880 Yeah, because like I mean, I can see it like, you know, because like, what do you what do you love, I guess, about sort of connecting with people? 1231 01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:35,880 What's your favorite thing to do? You know, because you're such a you love, I guess, really connecting and like scoping out people. 1232 01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:39,880 What do you love about that so much? 1233 01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:49,880 I think for me, it's a learning process. So I'm very curious of how other people are doing their lives, because I'm learning how I can do my life. 1234 01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:54,880 And I think my whole life, I'll be learning how I can do my life. Maybe at the end, I'll be like, aha, got it. 1235 01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:58,880 That's how you should do life in a good way. But I don't know, even this word should, I don't really believe it. 1236 01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:08,880 So it's very interesting because I'm so curious, like everyone has made different choices, you know, on every level of like how to behave, of how to interact, of how to live. 1237 01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:14,880 And it's like completely a choose your own adventure, you know, your life. And I find that fascinating. 1238 01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:27,880 And also like questioning for me, it's so interesting, this idea of the society, you know, and because I'm moving culture quite often, you get this quite culturally relative perspective of basically everything. 1239 01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:35,880 So it's very interesting to meet people and to try and understand like which things come from them personally, which thing come from the society. 1240 01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:46,880 And for me, I'm always very curious of this on some level of like, how interesting, because then you can kind of start to see patterns like, ah, like other people are also thinking this in this space and in this reality right now. 1241 01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:54,880 So when you're arriving in places with fresh eyes, I mean, or trying to keep fresh eyes after a while of being in a place, for me, this is very interesting. 1242 01:11:54,880 --> 01:12:03,880 And one of the things I really like when you're like talking to people and kind of drawing out, because there is something universal underneath all of it, you know. 1243 01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:12,880 And that's what's kind of interesting. This thing of in some way we are all connected. So like how, where are the lines? 1244

01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:18,880 And how people tell their own stories about themselves and how people draw their own lines. 1245 01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:29,880 It's like something you were saying before about the traumatized artist idea that is quite interesting because it's a story that you're telling to yourself. 1246 01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:38,880 And that's in some way even maybe as a justification, but definitely like as a story that you're narrating and everyone tells their own story very differently. 1247 01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:43,880 And for me, that's really interesting how people are talking to themselves. 1248 01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:54,880 Yeah, I think it's like, it's never like sort of the way the, yeah, it's very much like the way I view myself. 1249 01:12:54,880 --> 01:13:04,880 And, you know, I think over the years I've never really connected with Sydney on a lot of ways. 1250 01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:12,880 And I think that came out of like just traveling, a lot of traveling, but I've been sort of like, I think I just stuck here because it was convenient. 1251 01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:18,880 And I think had I told my younger self, I probably would have just left, you know, like hindsight's 20-20. 1252 01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:34,880 But I mean, also I just like, yeah, I'm always about like, you know, meeting new people and going out and sort of like hearing, you know, like people's stories because I don't always like what society tells us to be like. 1253 01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:39,880 I'm very like anti-camperlism and anti-structure. 1254 01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:45,880 I just think that, you know, we put labels to things that automatically go, well, that's easy. 1255 01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:48,880 That's where you need to fit in your box and that's what society tells you. 1256 01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:50,880 And I am terrible at fitting in boxes. 1257 01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:52,880 I never have and never will. 1258 01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:58,880 And I think, you know, even growing up, I noticed that getting older and older. 1259 01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:05,880 And I think, you know, just the way I identify, the way I see the world through my eyes and then just like gauging people. 1260 01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:06,880 I'm very good at gauging people. 1261 01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:15,880 And I think then that puts, you know, like I used to trust people very easily, but now I'm very careful with my trust. 1262 01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:20,880 Like I use it like very, like a key, which I love. 1263 01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:26,880 And I think it comes to the same reason that I love telling certain types of stories. 1264 01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:39,880 But yeah, it's like my huge love, I guess, for film and like performance based and stuff is kind of connecting to meeting and connecting and, you know, 1265 01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:43,880 you know, like one on one side making people laugh, but making people feel and connect. 1266 01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,880 Like it's why I love going, you know, I used to go to the art gallery alone. 1267 01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:50,880 I used to like, I, you know, used to go to the theatre alone. 1268 01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:53,880 Like I used to just go and see film and theatre and stuff on my own. 1269 01:14:53,880 --> 01:15:00,880 Because I never really understood that anyone kind of got it to what I was feeling was the point of half these performance pieces and stuff like that. 1270 01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:05,880 And I feel like a lot of people just liked mainstream, like mainstream, like Shakespeare and stuff. 1271 01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:12,880 And I was just like, now there's more to like a lot of like, you know, weird art and, you know, like, you know, so and so called weird art. 1272 01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:19,880 And like, I think like there was this really nice old lady who we dog sit for. 1273 01:15:19,880 --> 01:15:23,880 She's like 70 and she's in a very interesting life. 1274 01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:29,880 And we were just talking about photography and I just was like, oh my God, you really like get what I love about photography. 1275 01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:39,880 And she was like, she got me this book, which a lot she's like all about people and, you know, like and like just kind of like there's one which is based on like nude portraiture. 1276 01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:42,880 And there's like others that are just based on portraiture and stuff. 1277 01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:51,880 And I think it was like, oh, I love that because it just kind of tells a story about people and, you know, like with landscape and stuff because like I always say this with my photography. 1278 01:15:51,880 --> 01:16:01,880 I never alter anything. What you see is kind of what you get. And I really love that about it because, you know, like life is, you know, we're always trying to augment it or change it. 1279 01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:05,880 And I think whether it's good or bad, it's like the imperfections of what I love. 1280 01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:14,880 And I think that, you know, like everyone's flawed and I'm one of those people now who like as a kid, like had so much anxiety to really show all those. 1281 01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:17,880 Oh my God, I'm like, you know, a war saw or anything like that. 1282 01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:31,880 But now I'm just like, no, I have emotions and I think it's sort of getting rid of that toxic behaviors and stuff like, you know, that are ingrained in especially Australian culture and white culture, particularly to get rid of. 1283 01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:46,880 Because there's a lot of things that drive me mental about Australian white culture and the privilege that I guess is carried by us because it's just very, it's very interesting when us particularly like some people have like our own generation talk. 1284 01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:51,880 And I'm like, how are you so blinkered vision about like the way society structured? 1285 01:16:51,880 -->

01:17:02,880 Like they're just like they've never walked outside of their own little comfort zone and I just get baffled by it. And I think there was actually really great challenge. 1286 01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:10,880 And I thought like my whole family did when we were in lockdown, mum would organize like a movie night every week and everyone in the family got to pick. 1287 01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:15,880 So we'd watch it and like this was back when my brother was, you know, still they're still over there. 1288 01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:22,880 But like they were living in Germany, him and his wife and like we would set up, you know, like those watch alongs. 1289 01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:27,880 And yeah, and like so Simon would pick a pick a film, which would be a foreign film. 1290 01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:35,880 Sometimes I would pick a film, which would be a nineties film, you know, and we do just watch and we kind of like talk about it after what we liked and what we didn't like. 1291 01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:39,880 And it was really interesting because like every Friday this would happen for like three months. 1292 01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:50,880 I think we did this for and it was really nice because I think it just really got everyone out of like what we'd normally watch and what we were comfortable watching to kind of just be like everyone has different tastes. 1293 01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:55,880 And that's kind of good to really explore. 1294 01:17:55,880 --> 01:18:08,880 And yeah, there was like a lot of films that we sort of realized we didn't know existed or, you know, like I guess like the film I remember particularly was the documentary on Netflix, which was the one child policy in China. 1295 01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:10,880 Yeah. 1296 01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:17,880 And it was just really eye opening about like just that whole process. 1297 01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:24,880 And yeah, it's just like having known quite a few like friends who have families have immigrated. 1298 01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:43,880 And it's very interesting to hear their perspective of like, you know, just how life is and, you know, and growing up here as well like versus, you know, living their family living over there and I think that's like an eye opening situation that, you know, like we're at 8 billion people now. 1299 01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:49,880 Like population sizes just massively increasing but apparently like, I think the birth rates down there. 1300 01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:54,880 In Australia, just in the world's slowly going down like not I don't know what it's like in Australia. 1301 01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:59,880 We just don't know what like we're 6 million people I think in Sydney alone. 1302 01:18:59,880 --> 01:19:03,880 Six or seven. Yeah, six or seven. Yes, it's growing. 1303 01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:07,880 This is why I since I last had the statistic. Yeah, like in primary school. 1304 01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:10,880 Yes. I mean, it's like four. 1305 01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:17,880 Now it's why I was at 14 maybe 14 is the country. I have no idea. Yeah, it's it's you 24. 1306 01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:23,880 There's some four involved in my memory. We're just slowly going up by 10. 1307 01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:25,880 Stump. 1308 01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:32,880 But I mean like, you know, where, I guess, for you, 1309 01:19:32,880 --> 01:19:39,880 because you're like, you know, I love that you're such an like, in the way it's a positive thing when I say this because it doesn't want to sound like that. 1310 01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:48,880 But I love that you sort of see the world as an outsider and you know, like, you know, because did you ever feel like as a bit of the weird kid growing up? 1311 01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:53,880 Well, yeah, I guess. But I mean, I was a kid in Hong Kong. 1312 01:19:53,880 --> 01:20:03,880 So everyone was expat or in my school, if it was like local kids, they were going to school with the expats in English. 1313 01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:09,880 And everyone was from somewhere else or I definitely we definitely had Hong Kong kids in my class. 1314 01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:13,880 But now I'm thinking I don't remember why they would be. 1315 01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:24,880 But yeah, anyway, it was a completely mixed bag. So like you had some like Hong Kong kids, some kids from India, some from very few from Australia, America, really from everywhere. 1316 01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:28,880 And like the school celebrated Diwali and Chinese New Year and Christmas. 1317 01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:34,880 And it was so cool because you had like so many so many holidays. So everyone was weird in their own way. 1318 01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:41,880 Yeah. But then it's like, OK, so everyone has got this diverse cultural thing going on, even if it was a British school. 1319 01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:48,880 So like the underlying kind of mainstream culture was still British, British culture. 1320 01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:53,880 So then you were just like based on your interests. So I was like, yeah, I love Pokemon. You love Pokemon. 1321 01:20:53,880 --> 01:21:00,880 We like to play yo-yo, yo-yos in our band. We love Tamagotchi. We can't play them anymore. So it was just like you're just a kid, you know, whatever. 1322 01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:12,880 For me, it was more strange to move to Australia because I came here in boarding school and I had lived that life compared to here where you're in boarding school with people from the countryside. 1323 01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:18,880 And I didn't really have the right accent or kind of background culturally at all. 1324 01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:24,880 I remember getting in trouble in school because there was this kind of general knowledge quiz and they asked what the Murray was. 1325 01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:30,880 And I was like, a surname. Apparently it's a river. I've learned now it's a river. 1326 01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:37,880 But they thought I was being like facetious, you know, that I

was being rude. And it was like, well, actually I'm correct because it was a surname. 1327 01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:45,880 And then the river got named after some dude called Mr. Murray, you know, probably Mr. No, in this time of times. 1328 01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:51,880 So technically I was actually correct. And I know I used to know a girl and her surname was Murray. So I was like, I feel I'm correct. 1329 01:21:51,880 --> 01:21:58,880 But no, so I got in trouble in school like for this, at least at the beginning until I adapted and understood how to fit in. 1330 01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:07,880 But one thing you realize, I read some study of this that someone gave me once of third culture kids. So like kids who grew up in a different culture. 1331 01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:18,880 You get pretty good at adapting. You assess a situation and you fit in. So it's more like a process of understanding as I got older how to stop doing that. 1332 01:22:18,880 --> 01:22:31,880 How to stop just making it so that you fit in and being much more authentic, just being you and not adapting and shifting yourself so that you would kind of be the same as the others. 1333 01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:37,880 But to allow like, no, like these are my interests and great. And this is how I behave. 1334 01:22:37,880 --> 01:22:45,880 And yeah, I mean, this is, I guess, part of being an adult that you realize, like, if people don't have time for your complexity, then they shouldn't be in your life. 1335 01:22:45,880 --> 01:22:54,880 And that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously, like within that, being nice to everyone as much as possible, because, you know, everyone's going through their own journey. 1336 01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:59,880 Just be nice to people. Just be nice, guys. I mean, it's a simple ask. Be kind. 1337 01:22:59,880 --> 01:23:07,880 Yeah. I mean, like, that's really interesting as well. Like, yeah, I don't I sort of like. 1338 01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:10,880 Why? How long were you in boarding school for? 1339 01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:12,880 Four years. And then you just. 1340 01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:16,880 And then my parents moved here. So I switched to being in the day school. 1341 01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:18,880 Day school. The day school. 1342 01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:19,880 The boarding and the day. 1343 01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:20,880 The day. 1344 01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:25,880 Yeah. Which was strange, because when you're boarding school, you're sleeping in the school in the night. 1345 01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:30,880 So you have this weird, different relationship with the school because you see it strange hours. 1346 01:23:30,880 --> 01:23:33,880 I mean, obviously, technically, you're supposed to be asleep, but you might look out your window. 1347 01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:40,880 Like, there might be a fire alarm. So you're outside at a weird hour where in the day school, you go home after it's finished. 1348 01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:43,880 Maybe you have some like extra activity that you stay there for. 1349 01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:45,880 But yeah, it was a different relationship. So it's weird. 1350 01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:55,880 It's like, you know, when you say some things you should do in a certain order, no. So things flow, you're not disappointed. 1351 01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:59,880 And I definitely went the wrong order. You should go deeper into a place, not more shallowly. 1352 01:23:59,880 --> 01:24:03,880 Yeah. Yeah. So that was that was interesting. 1353 01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:06,880 I mean, and where did you where did you finally graduate? 1354 01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:10,880 Which which school was the school that you graduated from here? 1355 01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:14,880 Yeah. Which one was it? 1356 01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:17,880 It was this Ascombe in Edgecliff. 1357 01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:22,880 Oh, I like Edgecliff. 1358 01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:26,880 Yeah. It has a nice train station. 1359 01:24:26,880 --> 01:24:28,880 I mean, they really they have they have great shops there. 1360 01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:29,880 They do. 1361 01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:35,880 I remember getting very good like what's it called? This meringue. 1362 01:24:35,880 --> 01:24:37,880 Oh, OK. 1363 01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:38,880 They're delicious. 1364 01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:40,880 In the shape of a mouse. 1365 01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:42,880 Oh, wow. They were cute. 1366 01:24:42,880 --> 01:24:44,880 I remember those. They take me back. 1367 01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:46,880 They don't do them anymore. 1368 01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:47,880 So cute. 1369 01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:50,880 But no, like I'll I'll I think that's really interesting. 1370 01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:57,880 And like and then sort of like doing uni here and then kind of like doing it partially. 1371 01:24:57,880 --> 01:24:58,880 I used to finish it. 1372 01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:02,880 Like how long did the uni degree end up taking? 1373 01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:05,880 I'm really bad with numbers on time. 1374 01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:09,880 So let me think. You've done first aid. 1375 01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:13,880 That's image based scheduling. It's different. 1376 01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:17,880 So let's see. There were two years that I was like solidly in Australia. 1377 01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:25,880 And then it was the third year, I think, that I was on this exchange, 1378 01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:28,880 which meant that it became four years, something like this. 1379 01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:31,880 Like that the fourth year was kind of I was still in China, 1380 01:25:31,880 --> 01:25:36,880 but doing some random subjects to try and close this extra semester. 1381 01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:39,880 Yeah, maybe even five because there was some lost subjects, 1382 01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:42,880 because you know, when you do an Erasmus or in a university exchange, 1383 01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:46,880 sometimes you don't pass the subject because it was in a different language. 1384 01:25:46,880

--> 01:25:51,880 I had one like this that at the Chinese University, I wasn't studying Chinese at university. 1385 01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:54,880 I was studying other things in Chinese with the Chinese students. 1386 01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:59,880 Yeah. So I just at some point, like I just didn't really understand 1387 01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:02,880 how to log into the system to like change my course. 1388 01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:05,880 I was in this one that was supposed to be like super great. 1389 01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:08,880 I went once and I was like, this is shit. Am I even in the right room? 1390 01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:11,880 Because everything was being sent to me on these Chinese style schedules and in Chinese. 1391 01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:15,880 And I was just not coping at some point. 1392 01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:18,880 So I think I was supposed to be doing four subjects. I was doing three. 1393 01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:21,880 I was turning up to three. So I passed those and whatever the fourth one was 1394 01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:23,880 that I never actually found where it was. 1395 01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:26,880 I definitely looked for it for the first two weeks and I was like, well, that's weird. 1396 01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:28,880 Just like this doesn't exist. 1397 01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:31,880 Obviously doesn't exist. And obviously it did exist. And I didn't do it. 1398 01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:34,880 So yeah, I had to pick up a subject. So yeah, that's why it took longer as well. 1399 01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:39,880 There was some random confusions along the way. 1400 01:26:39,880 --> 01:26:41,880 And now you're fully graduated. 1401 01:26:41,880 --> 01:26:44,880 Fully graduated and graduated the masters as well. So that's cool. 1402 01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:47,880 Wow. When did you graduate? When did you finish the masters? 1403 01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:49,880 In Bosnia. That's what I was doing there. 1404 01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:51,880 Yeah, but what year? 1405 01:26:51,880 --> 01:26:52,880 2017. 1406 01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:54,880 There you go. So you've been completely since 2017. 1407 01:26:54,880 --> 01:26:57,880 I'm fully fledged useless. 1408 01:26:57,880 --> 01:26:59,880 Unemployable. 1409 01:26:59,880 --> 01:27:01,880 Please employ. Please employ. 1410 01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:03,880 Here's my CD. Coming to you now through the cellways. 1411 01:27:03,880 --> 01:27:05,880 Yeah. 1412 01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:07,880 Oh my God. And then you're back for it. 1413 01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:09,880 And then going back to Italy. 1414 01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:12,880 So I'm back until the end of Jan. 1415 01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:15,880 And I actually had hoped to stay longer. I wanted to stay until March. 1416 01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:20,880 But I am finally getting a work visa in Italy. 1417 01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:24,880 An official very good status. 1418 01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:26,880 But it takes so long to make. 1419 01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:30,880 So I went to

the office in, let's say, October. 1420 01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:33,880 And they were like, okay, you just have to go in the post office. 1421 01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:36,880 And it should be that like in two weeks you get the next appointment and then it's done. 1422 01:27:36,880 --> 01:27:39,880 Okay. I go in the post office and then I, okay. So your appointment is. 1423 01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:43,880 And okay. This post office was so funny. Like so funny. 1424 01:27:43,880 --> 01:27:52,880 They have this kind of crazy mix there of like very old school style post office with like mega, mega modern technology. 1425 01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:56,880 So the guy who was working there, his hands were like floating over the keypad. 1426 01:27:56,880 --> 01:27:58,880 Like he's been doing this since the 80s. 1427 01:27:58,880 --> 01:28:03,880 And it was very like elegant, his gestures, you know, like very beautiful somehow. 1428 01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:07,880 And then he was kind of like boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, like super modern. 1429 01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:10,880 But at the same time, this like very strange, like print of fax machine, 1430 01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:16,880 but it's like very specific kind of official document paper going in and out like on this one machine, like looping. 1431 01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:19,880 It was like being in Brazil, you know, it's like how you imagine the future. 1432 01:28:19,880 --> 01:28:26,880 This film, Brazil, like how you imagine what a visa office in the future could look like. 1433 01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:29,880 It was so funny. Anyway, out pops this paper like boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. 1434 01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:33,880 And it turns out my appointment is not in two weeks, but is in February. 1435 01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:36,880 So I have to go back for this appointment, which is kind of so annoying. 1436 01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:39,880 And I was really like, are you sure we can't change it until two weeks time? 1437 01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:42,880 They were asking me like, do you have any contacts in the ministry? 1438 01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:46,880 No, I don't. Do you? Asking to my work. 1439 01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:49,880 But yeah, so I'm going back for this. Oh, awesome. 1440 01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:54,880 Appointment to be officially visaed for like two months. 1441 01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:58,880 And then it already expires because it took them so long to do it. Oh, my God. 1442 01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:00,880 But yeah, it's a bit frustrating. 1443 01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:03,880 But that's exciting to say the least at some point. Yeah. 1444 01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:08,880 I don't know. I just got back. So I really don't want to think about leaving because it's like so nice to be back. 1445 01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:11,880 But and it's weird that I'm saying that because it's true. 1446 01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:16,880 Like the me of like five years ago would be like, so how many hours until I leave now? Yeah. 1447 01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:20,880 Yeah, it's a good situation. It's nice to have you back. 1448 01:29:20,880 --> 01:29:24,880 Yeah. But let's see. Also, I mean, right now, my work is based there. 1449 01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:29,880 Yeah. So kind of following the natural flow of how things go. 1450 01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:33,880 That's where this project is and maybe subsequent projects. 1451 01:29:33,880 --> 01:29:36,880 And it would be nice to come in Australia at some point to make work here. 1452 01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:42,880 Yeah. But I don't know. It's I don't think if I would ever necessarily. 1453 01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:45,880 I don't know. It's a hard question. Like, do you move somewhere because you like it? 1454 01:29:45,880 --> 01:29:48,880 Or do you follow where your projects are taking you? 1455 01:29:48,880 --> 01:29:52,880 Because at some point you might have to make an actual action of like, OK, 1456 01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:56,880 I want to be based here because this is the kind of lifestyle I like and that I want. 1457 01:29:56,880 --> 01:30:02,880 And let's find projects to do here instead of like following where the projects take, 1458 01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:07,880 which means that you just have to have a random base somewhere that maybe you don't actually like the lifestyle there. 1459 01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:10,880 And then when there's no projects, you're stuck in a place that you don't like. 1460 01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:14,880 So this is what I'm trying to figure out at the moment, like how to combine the things in a good way. 1461 01:30:14,880 --> 01:30:20,880 Yeah. I'm sure you'll get there eventually. But, you know, like that's that's the age old question, isn't it? 1462 01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:24,880 Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's like there's no real solid answer. 1463 01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:28,880 Yeah. I mean, I think everyone finds their own solution. 1464 01:30:28,880 --> 01:30:33,880 Yeah. And also depends like where you have your people and where you have your community, like we were saying before. 1465 01:30:33,880 --> 01:30:38,880 Yeah. But again, you can build community as you were saying, you can make new friends. 1466 01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:42,880 And it just it's connecting with people who are on the same level as you. Yeah. 1467 01:30:42,880 --> 01:30:47,880 And this is also possible. Yeah. Just find the people that love it like you do. 1468 01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:52,880 It's really like the go. It's passionate, passionate and strange. 1469 01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:56,880 It's like weird, passionate forever foreigners like. Yeah. 1470 01:30:56,880 --> 01:31:00,880 No, actually, it's good to have a mix. Like if I'm this forever foreigner character, 1471 01:31:00,880 --> 01:31:03,880 it's nice to have a mix of friends who are much more rooted. 1472 01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:07,880 Some of them, some of them are more. Yeah, I don't know. 1473 01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:12,880 And I like to have this kind of varied cast of characters that on certain levels you're connecting. 1474 01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:16,880 You're each like very individual and very different to one another. Yeah. 1475 01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:19,880 Yeah, I really, I really like that. I love that. 1476 01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:22,880 I love the way you think. Thanks. 1477 01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:24,880 I think way too much. No, it's good. 1478 01:31:24,880 --> 01:31:30,880 I just think it's very unique and I and it's very like not dissimilar to my own brain. 1479 01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:35,880 I always find that like unique when I look at people like, oh, there's traits in there that I know. 1480 01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:38,880 I know this twisty dark passageway. 1481 01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:43,880 I've been down this road before. 1482 01:31:43,880 --> 01:31:46,880 But I think that's a perfect point to wrap us up. 1483 01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:49,880 Thank you so much for joining me. My pleasure. 1484 01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:52,880 Where can people find you? Where can they stalk you on the internet? 1485 01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:55,880 Probably on Instagram is the best one. EMJ51. 1486 01:31:55,880 --> 01:31:57,880 Five one. What's the 51? 1487 01:31:57,880 --> 01:32:02,880 I like five and I like one. And together they're a pretty nice number. 1488 01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:09,880 And actually it's very, it's always been my lucky number because I like five, which is the number of freedom and one, the number of like individual independent. 1489 01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:12,880 Also like three, which is the number of creativity. 1490 01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:15,880 But usually you only need two numbers for logging into stuff. 1491 01:32:15,880 --> 01:32:18,880 So if you add a three in that becomes messy. 1492 01:32:18,880 --> 01:32:24,880 And I was looking the other day at something and I understood that that's the latitude that I was born on. 1493 01:32:24,880 --> 01:32:26,880 51 degrees north. 1494 01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:27,880 Zero, 51. 1495 01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:32,880 I was like, that's so weird that it's been my lucky number all my life. And it's actually the latitude of where I was born. 1496 01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:35,880 Just very like a nice twist. 1497 01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:40,880 Serendipitous. I accidentally choose the correct lucky number. 1498 01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:42,880 That's amazing. Yeah. 1499 01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:43,880 That's incredible. 1500 01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:47,880 But anyway, that's where you can find me. Insta-GG. 1501 01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:49,880 The Gigi. 1502 01:32:49,880 --> 01:32:54,880 And if you want to go and check out more episodes of The Things We Do, you can check them out on Apple and Spotify. 1503 01:32:54,880 --> 01:32:57,880 I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you later. 1504 01:32:57,880 --> 01:33:26,880 Goodbye.