บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Forming Healthy Responses to Grief with Natasha Smith

05:07.185 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, just losses that we have a met expectations and, you know, thinking we'll be at 05:08.205 --> 05:10.106 [SPEAKER_00]: someplace further along. 05:10.707 --> 05:12.788 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's been a journey. 05:12.868 --> 05:19.872 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's really, really why I'm so, so, so passionate about helping those who are navigating grief and those who are hurting. 05:20.152 --> 05:20.532 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah. 05:21.073 --> 05:23.834 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you for sharing out with us. 05:24.275 --> 05:28.517 [SPEAKER_02]: And you refer to yourself as a grief advocate. 05:28.597 --> 05:31.259 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that word made me curious. 05:31.539 --> 05:36.862 [SPEAKER_02]: Could you tell us what is grief advocacy and how does that differ from other kinds of grief work? 05:37.783 --> 05:40.945 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I love that question because I typically don't get that question. 05:42.326 --> 05:47.030 [SPEAKER_00]: That word for me came from one of my close writer friends that is local to me. 05:47.130 --> 05:50.632 [SPEAKER_00]: We do call for you a lot, but she was like, you're your grief advocates. 05:50.892 --> 05:58.158 [SPEAKER_00]: It really means to come alongside like it really means like come alongside those who are hurting and those who are grieving, navigate and grief. 05:58.778 --> 06:14.458 [SPEAKER_00]: As well as I think the difference is is the like the purpose and how is kind of walked out like I want to a lot of what I do especially on the day to day basis even across socials is bringing more awareness. 06:14.978 --> 06:22.384 [SPEAKER_00]: to grief like so many people don't even realize that they are grieving or that they are allowed to grief. 06:22.424 --> 06:24.426 [SPEAKER_00]: So just bringing awareness to grief. 06:24.706 --> 06:26.167 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's one of the huge things. 06:26.247 --> 06:33.673 [SPEAKER_00]: And then bringing also bringing that awareness to the places where grief should be supported more in our communities and our churches. 06:33.773 --> 06:36.335 [SPEAKER_00]: And so just really bringing that awareness. 06:36.516 --> 06:39.698 [SPEAKER_00]: I think grief work is more so helping the individual 06:42.060 --> 06:43.701 [SPEAKER_00]: walk through and process their grief. 06:43.721 --> 06:44.862 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of the difference. 06:45.422 --> 06:46.503 [SPEAKER_02]: Wow, I love that. 06:46.683 --> 06:48.745 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's so needed. 06:48.765 --> 07:02.194 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just hear I hear in that that you are a permission giver like you are inviting people to take their grief seriously to pay attention to it, to make space for it. 07:02.274 --> 07:05.536 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's really beautiful and and noble. 07:05.736 --> 07:07.017 [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for your work. 07:07.257 --> 07:14.183 [SPEAKER_02]: So could you talk a little bit about how secular Western culture tends to talk about in handle grief. 07:14.223 --> 07:16.505 [SPEAKER_02]: So in your book, can you just sit with me? 07:17.026 --> 07:19.728 [SPEAKER_02]: You have this whole chart of grief with myths. 07:19.748 --> 07:24.753 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm wondering if you could just highlight a couple for us that are common in our world today. 07:25.905 --> 07:42.258 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones is that there is like a specific timeline to grief, like we think that there is an endpoint, whether that is, you know, you've agreed for a year, you know, for something like that, and it's really just not the case. 07:42.619 --> 07:50.225 [SPEAKER_00]: And even in thinking about the five stages of grief, because when people think about grief or how we should, you know, 07:50.845 --> 07:52.666 [SPEAKER_00]: in air quotes should grieve. 07:52.726 --> 08:11.434 [SPEAKER_00]: We think that, you know, we should we would follow these five stages, but that's still not the case either being that we've learned that the five stages was really researched according to like people who were dying versus the people who are living and being affected by that loss. 08:11.514 --> 08:13.415 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's just a huge difference. 08:14.475 --> 08:19.157 [SPEAKER_00]: I like to say it like for the five series of the grief that they helped to inform how we grieve. 08:19.677 --> 08:21.618 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, we may feel angry. 08:22.098 --> 08:23.418 [SPEAKER_00]: We may feel depressed. 08:23.478 --> 08:33.722 [SPEAKER_00]: We may feel, you know, a sense of denial, but it doesn't mean that from, you know, this time to a certain endpoint that we will be done. 08:34.002 --> 08:38.664 [SPEAKER_00]: Then it's so huge to understand that because otherwise we're like, am I going crazy? 08:39.144 --> 08:40.465 [SPEAKER_00]: And the answer's no, you're not. 08:41.005 --> 08:43.446 [SPEAKER_00]: This journey is unpredictable and it's messy. 08:43.946 --> 08:44.547 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's okay. 08:44.887 --> 08:45.367 [SPEAKER_00]: That's normal. 08:46.075 --> 08:49.358 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, so as you know, the majority of our listeners are parents. 08:49.979 --> 08:55.944 [SPEAKER_02]: Are there any myths that particularly applied to children and youth that you've encountered? 08:56.545 --> 09:05.293 [SPEAKER_00]: I love this question so much because it is often said that like kids youth are kind of like the forgotten mourners. 09:06.094 --> 09:14.999 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, the thing with kids is that the myth is that they are so resilient, that they really, you know, they really don't grieve. 09:15.159 --> 09:18.601 [SPEAKER_00]: Like they really, you know, they go through things and they just bounce back. 09:18.741 --> 09:22.623 [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe from us, I'm looking in that that is kind of how it seems. 09:22.723 --> 09:24.664 [SPEAKER_00]: But the reality is they're like us, right? 09:24.744 --> 09:26.766 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we were kids at one

point. 09:27.146 --> 09:30.808 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we know that the things that happened to us really affect us deeply. 09:31.308 --> 09:39.851 [SPEAKER_00]: And so just understanding that, you know, can't help us to better help kids and youth walk through the hard things that they experience. 09:40.291 --> 09:56.275 [SPEAKER_02]: So how, whether it's the linear, you know, the linear myth or this myth that kids are somehow resilient and imperious degree, like how would, how would you describe the impact of those myths on us and our kids? 09:56.335 --> 09:57.896 [SPEAKER_02]: What's the fruit of those things? 09:58.569 --> 10:03.412 [SPEAKER_00]: What I found in my life is like, like I said, it's kind of set with grief for over thirty years. 10:03.592 --> 10:05.574 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm thinking like, you know, I'm stuffing it. 10:05.694 --> 10:06.614 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pushing it inside. 10:06.654 --> 10:07.495 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm ignoring it. 10:07.695 --> 10:10.377 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not an impact coming, but absolutely it has. 10:10.777 --> 10:21.824 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's informed every decision, every how I interact with my spouse, my kids, just all coworkers, every thing that I touch, it is affected by it. 10:21.964 --> 10:23.525 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's the same. 10:23.625 --> 10:24.165 [SPEAKER_00]: So when 10:25.026 --> 10:26.727 [SPEAKER_00]: kids use as well as adults. 10:27.047 --> 10:34.412 [SPEAKER_00]: When we don't deal with process acknowledge the grief that we're experiencing, it comes out somehow in some way. 10:34.833 --> 10:36.894 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's a huge, huge thing. 10:36.954 --> 10:45.920 [SPEAKER_00]: And one thing, I mean, if you think about it, kids, and then through adulthood, like the become adults, a lot of the adults that are walking around here include myself. 10:46.841 --> 10:52.525 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we find that is some of the issues or the things that we're navigating through is things that we 10:52.998 --> 10:55.123 [SPEAKER_00]: but we left unresolved for my childhood. 10:55.843 --> 11:02.186 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like what I heard this phrase, you know, what you, the pain you don't transform you transmit. 11:02.266 --> 11:05.127 [SPEAKER_02]: It comes out in your life, right, somewhere else. 11:05.227 --> 11:17.272 [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, if we buy into the myth that okay, our grief is done because it's been a certain amount of time, or our kids are not, you know, they somehow are not affected the same way we are. 11:17.292 --> 11:20.194 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we can metabolize. 11:20.454 --> 11:21.774 [SPEAKER_02]: We don't metabolize that. 11:21.854 --> 11:23.655 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it comes out other places. 11:23.775 --> 11:24.996 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that makes sense. 11:25.936 --> 11:32.721 [SPEAKER_02]: So typically, this is where I would pivot and ask you to share how you understand the biblical story around grief. 11:32.801 --> 11:42.869 [SPEAKER_02]: But I actually think there's a little more to unpack here in terms of the myths that we believe about grief because some of the myths around grief are actually pretty prevalent in Christian culture. 11:42.949 --> 11:48.653 [SPEAKER_02]: So could you share with us some ways that you've seen grief misunderstood in the church? 11:49.802 --> 12:03.902 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is such a powerful question because I think it's going to help kind of free people up a little bit as relates to grief and just as Christians having the permission to grieve because one of the myths is that if you grieve 12:04.803 --> 12:15.511 [SPEAKER_00]: and not just grief, but even if you if you grieve longer than what people may deem acceptable, they say you're they may think and say that your faith is weak and that is absolutely not the case. 12:15.872 --> 12:28.921 [SPEAKER_00]: And then even just grieving and in general because there's a specific verse that says, let us not grieve as though we don't have hope and then some people just keep that verse so short and say don't grieve. 12:30.042 --> 12:31.784 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's totally taken on the contest. 12:32.404 --> 12:40.711 [SPEAKER_00]: To me, it's kind of validating like God is saying, when you grieve, because you will, you know, then make sure we grieve with hope. 12:41.431 --> 12:53.701 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's like taking just been more cognizant and keeping scripture in as full context and know that God knew that one day we would grieve and I love this part because he sent us a confeder. 12:55.247 --> 12:55.507 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 12:55.527 --> 13:07.436 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, even, you know, I'm always moved by the fact that Jesus before he raises Lazarus from the dead, he leaps, you know, he's embracing grief. 13:07.476 --> 13:12.339 [SPEAKER_02]: He's grieving with the community even right before what's going to happen next. 13:12.980 --> 13:14.781 [SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't just skip skip over that. 13:15.982 --> 13:17.263 [SPEAKER_02]: Are you familiar with? 13:17.323 --> 13:22.888 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure you are, but could you talk a little bit about the term spiritual bypassing what that is? 13:23.448 --> 13:24.389 [SPEAKER_02]: Why we do that? 13:24.789 --> 13:31.895 [SPEAKER_00]: Such about pests and is a term that we use when like our pain or our grief suffering is met with 13:32.575 --> 13:44.739 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes post spiritual practice or spiritual phrase or platitude, but it's so harmful because it minimizes or and dismisses how we're feeling. 13:44.839 --> 13:56.423 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, if someone says, you know, a lost a parent or a lost a child, I had a miscarriage and they're like, you know, where everything happens to a reason, like, oh my gosh, no, oh, don't say. 13:57.325 --> 13:57.705 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 13:58.406 --> 14:02.348 [SPEAKER_02]: I have had a journey of my own grief. 14:02.468 --> 14:21.541 [SPEAKER_02]: One of those losses was a miscarriage and not phrase was repeated to me over and

over and over and over well meaning but it hurts the idea that we sort of spiritualize away our pain with something that feels faithful but it's sort of put in a bandaid on something so 14:22.262 --> 14:27.325 [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think makes that approach so attractive or appealing? 14:27.365 --> 14:36.852 [SPEAKER_02]: Why are we drawn to things like everything happens for a reason or must not have enough faith that if you're still upset about this, like, why are we drawn to that? 14:37.372 --> 14:48.796 [SPEAKER_00]: I think because it's easy, most often people are so uncomfortable with talking about loss and grief, most often, you know, no one taught us how to grieve and then no one taught us how to support greeners. 14:49.536 --> 14:52.717 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they think that is the right thing to say because even when 14:53.897 --> 14:56.918 [SPEAKER_00]: with what he said, you know, it's well-meaning. 14:57.298 --> 14:58.798 [SPEAKER_00]: Most often it's well-meaning. 14:59.058 --> 15:04.339 [SPEAKER_00]: And people don't even realize that they're really hurting the other person when they say it. 15:04.719 --> 15:10.261 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, again, that's one of the things that I'm passionate about with my work is bringing awareness to that. 15:10.321 --> 15:12.981 [SPEAKER_00]: Like most often people don't know what to say. 15:13.381 --> 15:21.103 [SPEAKER_00]: And so they've even either heard someone else say it or, you know, it's been said to them and they didn't even realize even though it probably hurt them too. 15:21.803 --> 15:33.990 [SPEAKER_00]: But they're repeating what they heard in culture or saying, you know, and so I think it's just an easy, easy way out, unfortunately, instead of sitting in the uncomfortable. 15:34.210 --> 15:37.412 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, so the title of your book, can you just sit with me? 15:37.572 --> 15:38.812 [SPEAKER_02]: Why did you choose that title? 15:38.832 --> 15:39.593 [SPEAKER_02]: And what does that mean? 15:40.440 --> 15:40.780 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 15:41.040 --> 15:42.962 [SPEAKER_00]: So exactly how it sounds, right? 15:43.042 --> 15:44.223 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you just sit with me? 15:44.523 --> 15:50.267 [SPEAKER_00]: I've just felt so strong that it is like the heart, the heart's cry of the griever. 15:50.787 --> 16:05.037 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like literally just wanting someone to to be with them, to sit with them and not to assert an opinion or a platitude, really just their presence, to listen, be good listeners. 16:05.977 --> 16:09.540 [SPEAKER_00]: Like if I'm telling my story, I don't need to hear yours right now, you know? 16:10.120 --> 16:24.078 [SPEAKER_00]: but making space, making space to really, yeah, just to listen with their heart, you know, and to empathize and to witness my pain, to witness my pain, affirm what I'm feeling at the moment. 16:24.138 --> 16:26.501 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's really where that title came from. 16:27.150 --> 16:31.012 [SPEAKER_02]: I think

something that trips people up is they don't know what to say. 16:31.032 --> 16:35.435 [SPEAKER_02]: I think especially people who have not experienced a similar loss. 16:35.495 --> 16:44.920 [SPEAKER_02]: So when my mom died and my mother-in-law died, both very close to each other, I think people who were our peers who had not lost a parent 16:46.100 --> 16:47.541 [SPEAKER_02]: You can watch them floundering. 16:47.581 --> 16:49.582 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't, I don't know what to say. 16:49.602 --> 16:53.964 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, there's something in me that's always like, you told me to say anything. 16:54.084 --> 16:56.806 [SPEAKER_02]: You just, yeah, can you just sit with me? 16:57.506 --> 16:59.367 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's really important. 16:59.687 --> 17:06.190 [SPEAKER_02]: What happens when we apply these false narratives of everything happens for a reason? 17:06.450 --> 17:13.174 [SPEAKER_02]: Or, yeah, if you don't have enough faith, you know, you're, you must not have enough faith if you're still grieving. 17:13.194 --> 17:13.834 [SPEAKER_02]: What happens? 17:14.461 --> 17:18.343 [SPEAKER_02]: to us when we apply those narratives to our grief journey. 17:18.943 --> 17:20.864 [SPEAKER_00]: And really kind of stops it. 17:21.084 --> 17:23.765 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it keeps us from processing. 17:24.405 --> 17:31.608 [SPEAKER_00]: And even for me, just having experience, those two is it makes me turn want to turn inward. 17:32.048 --> 17:36.010 [SPEAKER_00]: Meaning, I don't want to tell anybody else the story of this is what I'm going to be 17:37.050 --> 17:40.371 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, confronted, you know, met with my grief. 17:40.431 --> 17:46.332 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, why would I want to share my story when someone says, well, everything has more reason, you know, I'm like, uh, that's staying. 17:46.352 --> 17:49.493 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not going to tell, well, for one of them, I'm talking to you again. 17:50.653 --> 17:54.894 [SPEAKER_00]: And then it's going to make me afraid to talk to someone else. 17:55.294 --> 18:04.617 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's really how I kind of, you know, I said in that place for years of not knowing who was safe and who I could really share with. 18:04.697 --> 18:05.957 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it really 18:07.518 --> 18:15.703 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want damaging sounds like a really harsh word, but it does kind of damages in that sense of people become unsafe. 18:16.483 --> 18:17.864 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we turn inward. 18:18.454 --> 18:29.339 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm starting to realize that as we're talking there may be folks listening who can't figure out like what's wrong with the phrase everything happens for a reason. 18:29.980 --> 18:32.741 [SPEAKER_02]: So I wonder if we could just talk a little bit about that. 18:33.421 --> 18:41.025 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of us listening right may instantly know why that's a difficult thing to be told when you're in the middle of grief. 18:41.749 --> 18:45.894 [SPEAKER_02]: But others of us may feel like, no, that's a comforting thing, right? 18:45.994 --> 18:48.658 [SPEAKER_02]: The idea that God knows what he's doing. 18:49.399 --> 18:53.063 [SPEAKER_02]: This is a faithful way to respond. 18:53.164 --> 18:57.890 [SPEAKER_02]: So can we unpack that a little, what is, what's so problematic about that phrase? 18:58.684 --> 19:11.435 [SPEAKER_00]: I love exactly how you kind of just explain that because as we mentioned, you know, people are well-meaning in those phrases sound, there's nothing wrong with the phrase by itself. 19:12.400 --> 19:12.640 [SPEAKER_00]: Right? 19:13.140 --> 19:15.061 [SPEAKER_00]: Same thing with, same thing with scripture. 19:15.521 --> 19:16.601 [SPEAKER_00]: So scripture is true. 19:17.041 --> 19:19.741 [SPEAKER_00]: We know that, you know, you know, the word of God is true. 19:20.782 --> 19:27.363 [SPEAKER_00]: What happens as we are grieving and to greeners and it's actually really a scientific thing. 19:28.243 --> 19:33.744 [SPEAKER_00]: And I kind of talk about it a little bit and can you just say, what's me in the book about being flat brain? 19:34.604 --> 19:38.625 [SPEAKER_00]: This like flat brain syndrome when we are so filled up with emotion. 19:40.196 --> 19:48.859 [SPEAKER_00]: Like our pain is so big and we're seeing it only feeling or sensing that pain of the grief that we can't see clearly or think straight. 19:49.099 --> 19:54.921 [SPEAKER_00]: And so even so to hear joy, you know, we've been there for a night, but joy comes in the morning. 19:55.461 --> 19:56.561 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely is true. 19:57.041 --> 19:58.322 [SPEAKER_00]: But when my pain is 20:00.520 --> 20:01.802 [SPEAKER_00]: My pain is so high. 20:02.823 --> 20:07.188 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I am just in the thick of grief, I'm grieving. 20:07.449 --> 20:16.399 [SPEAKER_00]: Even if it's twenty thirty years ago, even if it happened that long ago, if I'm grieving, I cannot see clearly or think straight. 20:17.028 --> 20:17.248 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 20:17.288 --> 20:20.250 [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't feel like I'm going to wake up tomorrow. 20:21.211 --> 20:22.412 [SPEAKER_02]: Joyful, you know. 20:22.512 --> 20:23.493 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 20:23.813 --> 20:24.173 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 20:24.193 --> 20:24.794 [SPEAKER_00]: You like joy. 20:24.854 --> 20:25.154 [SPEAKER_00]: What? 20:25.454 --> 20:27.095 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't even hear you right now. 20:27.576 --> 20:44.788 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that is really really the one of the great kind of illustrations or descriptions that I can come up with to help people understand, like, greeners were in a space where we can't totally embrace that at the moment. 20:45.510 --> 20:45.950 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. 20:46.891 --> 20:48.633 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's really insightful. 20:48.933 --> 20:55.659 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think some things that I've reflected on first of all, the phrase, everything happens for a reason. 20:56.039 --> 20:57.461

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not in the Bible. 20:58.401 --> 20:59.642 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, looks. 20:59.863 --> 21:01.144 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, absolutely. 21:01.824 --> 21:06.168 [SPEAKER_02]: I think what people mean is God is in control. 21:06.268 --> 21:07.189 [SPEAKER_02]: God is sovereign. 21:07.409 --> 21:08.550 [SPEAKER_02]: Those things are true. 21:08.570 --> 21:12.334 [SPEAKER_02]: I think people are trying to access God's sovereignty when they say that. 21:13.468 --> 21:14.849 [SPEAKER_02]: are trying to communicate that. 21:14.929 --> 21:21.431 [SPEAKER_02]: What I do believe is that what is inscripture is that the Lord works everything for good. 21:21.451 --> 21:24.332 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we can flate these ideas. 21:24.412 --> 21:36.597 [SPEAKER_02]: So the idea that God orchestrates pain and suffering or, you know, causes the death of an unborn child for some other purpose, that 21:37.143 --> 21:39.364 [SPEAKER_02]: has some theological problems, right? 21:39.404 --> 21:42.105 [SPEAKER_02]: God is not the author of suffering. 21:42.165 --> 21:45.127 [SPEAKER_02]: God is not the author of the brokenness in the world. 21:45.187 --> 21:46.667 [SPEAKER_02]: That comes from sin. 21:46.948 --> 21:53.651 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we are subject to sin in a post fall, you know, post fall in world. 21:53.951 --> 21:56.892 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that has broken the world. 21:57.172 --> 22:03.015 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the idea that God causes horrible things to teach us, not things 22:04.076 --> 22:19.600 [SPEAKER_02]: That's not biblical, but the idea that God could take the things that have happened to you and the things that have happened to me that are results of the fall and use them for beautiful good things in our life eventually. 22:19.640 --> 22:28.303 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, that may not be something I want to hear in the moment that that's what's true is God can take something awful and turn it to good. 22:28.663 --> 22:32.424 [SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, it's a subtle difference, but that everything happens for a reason communicates. 22:32.444 --> 22:34.885 [SPEAKER_02]: God did this for another purpose. 22:35.325 --> 22:50.788 [SPEAKER_02]: As I mentioned, you know, I think one of the first times that I became really aware that our Western, you know, sort of narratives around reef are really lacking was when I had this traumatic miscarriage. 22:51.129 --> 22:53.889 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was, I felt misunderstood in my grief journey. 22:53.909 --> 22:56.930 [SPEAKER_02]: I really, I took that grief journey very seriously. 22:57.350 --> 23:01.554 [SPEAKER_02]: And I felt misunderstood, both by Christians and by non-believing friends. 23:02.175 --> 23:13.706 [SPEAKER_02]: And so for those listeners who have experienced miscarriage or stillbirth, what's one or two things that you have learned about this particular grief that you'd like to share? 23:14.607 --> 23:22.176 [SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the biggest things that I've learned, just based on research, as well as with my own experience with Ms. 23:22.197 --> 23:27.984 [SPEAKER_00]: Garrett and Stillberg, is that it's a particular type of grief that is called disenfranchised grief. 23:28.624 --> 23:31.468 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's the grief that is most often 23:32.749 --> 23:34.870 [SPEAKER_00]: not given the right to grieve. 23:35.310 --> 23:41.192 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not given the space that we need to grieve by culture, society, others around us. 23:41.532 --> 23:49.354 [SPEAKER_00]: Because again, these types of losses is where some, you know, your grief may be met with, well, you can have more kids. 23:49.774 --> 23:52.735 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, but I wanted the one that I was carrying. 23:52.755 --> 24:01.298 [SPEAKER_00]: It's such an interesting type of grief because it is, you know, you, you, you just, we, we wanted the child that we were carrying. 24:01.978 --> 24:05.982 [SPEAKER_00]: When we lose the child, we're not afforded that time. 24:06.622 --> 24:14.589 [SPEAKER_00]: Even, I mean, even, you know, if you're working, like in a corporate set and or just working, you know, you don't get time. 24:15.970 --> 24:19.093 [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, so culture and society is is saying. 24:19.473 --> 24:22.134 [SPEAKER_00]: No, you don't have the right to really grieve this loss. 24:22.214 --> 24:29.097 [SPEAKER_00]: And so even so the institutions around us are even saying like you don't have the right to grieve, but we absolutely do, right? 24:29.757 --> 24:35.360 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that is such a challenging type of loss and grief that we face. 24:36.240 --> 24:42.583 [SPEAKER_02]: Wow, that phrase is really helpful, disenfranchised. 24:42.763 --> 24:46.725 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember one of the most healing things that was said to me. 24:46.745 --> 24:54.469 [SPEAKER_02]: It's actually the night that I realized, you know, I was out of town and realized this was happening and called my 24:55.889 --> 25:07.238 [SPEAKER_02]: midwife practice and the midwife on call happened to be a believer and knew that I was too but she told me that very first day there's always going to be an empty spot your dinner table. 25:08.162 --> 25:27.017 [SPEAKER_02]: And I have just thought about how formative that was for me in the very beginning of a quite extensive grief journey for me that she was willing to acknowledge the human who is going to be missing the person that God loves and knows. 25:27.578 --> 25:34.223 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's something that really there's a lack of we don't humanize these losses typically. 25:35.084 --> 25:35.344 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 25:35.364 --> 25:37.046 [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, thank you for that term. 25:37.066 --> 25:37.927 [SPEAKER_02]: That's really helpful. 25:37.947 --> 25:39.789 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, disenfranchised grief. 25:39.989 --> 25:48.919 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, um, I really do want to hear how would you describe the biblical story around grief and how it differs from what we've talked about so

far. 25:48.939 --> 25:50.461 [SPEAKER_02]: I love this question. 25:50.481 --> 25:52.062 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's more so because 25:52.683 --> 25:57.725 [SPEAKER_00]: because I grew in church and I just didn't hear a lot about loss and grief. 25:57.985 --> 26:05.429 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when I began kind of studying the Bible for myself, as it relates to grief, loss, death, dying. 26:06.189 --> 26:09.551 [SPEAKER_00]: Suffering sorrow is threaded throughout the entire Bible. 26:10.071 --> 26:11.272 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you can't get away from it. 26:11.372 --> 26:18.115 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, even in the Psalms, you know, these things, you know, the Psalms were happy and jovial, but they were just like, how long, Lord? 26:20.522 --> 26:22.703 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a lot of lamenting, right? 26:23.164 --> 26:31.248 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, when we study our Bible, we see that God really made space for all the loss and grief that we will experience. 26:31.328 --> 26:40.213 [SPEAKER_00]: And I lifetime because it's in there and along with, you know, the overcoming and along with the hope and along with the joy. 26:40.233 --> 26:48.578 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, the biblical narrative is that again, that God knew that we would, we would suffer losses and, you know, 26:49.378 --> 26:52.279 [SPEAKER_00]: I think is in John in this life will help trouble, right? 26:52.719 --> 27:04.342 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, he's given us a hope which is in himself, you know, to to comfort us, to give this peace, to be able to sit with him, to be still. 27:04.442 --> 27:13.884 [SPEAKER_00]: I know that he is God, you know, one of my favorite scriptures that I like to, um, brain to mind is to help me bring to mind his character. 27:13.904 --> 27:19.005 [SPEAKER_00]: And where it says, you know, when my soul was in the dumps and this is message paraphrase, 27:19.285 --> 27:19.577 [SPEAKER_00]: haha 27:20.657 --> 27:49.196 [SPEAKER_00]: I remember all the things I know of you and so it's really like when we are in the messy parts of grief and we can't see sea straight or think clearly remind ourselves who God is and his character and then that's gonna help us kind of how we were talking before that's gonna help us not to say you did this God because that's not his character everything he does is out of love we have to remind ourselves who he is 27:50.053 --> 27:55.237 [SPEAKER_02]: to read the Bible and see, you know, sorrow and grief is present. 27:55.257 --> 27:57.598 [SPEAKER_02]: That's very affirming to us, right? 27:57.658 --> 27:58.098 [SPEAKER_02]: We're not. 27:58.158 --> 28:07.365 [SPEAKER_02]: There's something wrong with us that we are participating in the human experience that has been true since the fall, right? 28:08.625 --> 28:12.849 [SPEAKER_02]: And then to remember who God is, who He isn't, right? 28:12.889 --> 28:15.671 [SPEAKER_02]: He's not some evil character messing with us. 28:15.812 --> 28:21.096 [SPEAKER_02]: He is faithful and good and

loving and kind and present. 28:21.917 --> 28:25.139 [SPEAKER_02]: And then yeah, that in this world you will have trouble. 28:25.940 --> 28:29.984 [SPEAKER_02]: Like that, there's a comfort in knowing I got new and then take heart. 28:30.044 --> 28:31.044 [SPEAKER_02]: I have overcome the world. 28:31.104 --> 28:33.126 [SPEAKER_02]: We know how the story ends, you know? 28:33.426 --> 28:39.311 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're gonna carry that pain this side of eternity, but we know the end of the story. 28:39.351 --> 28:42.214 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's always the thing that gives me hope. 28:42.534 --> 28:50.181 [SPEAKER_02]: So what are some specific ways that we can live into the biblical narrative when we're in pain? 28:50.341 --> 28:54.044 [SPEAKER_02]: So what practical advice do you have for listeners who are just 28:54.551 --> 28:56.533 [SPEAKER_02]: drowning in grief today. 28:57.294 --> 29:07.884 [SPEAKER_00]: Like some spiritual practices is really sitting with Jesus, like literally bringing all of our cares to him and laying them at his feet because he cares for us. 29:07.924 --> 29:10.467 [SPEAKER_00]: We know that that scripture, but it's true. 29:10.487 --> 29:15.031 [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like putting what we have heard or read into 29:16.268 --> 29:16.608 [SPEAKER_00]: action. 29:17.489 --> 29:26.593 [SPEAKER_00]: And so literally in, and I share a few of those ways in the book, like you can write it down, write it down and write it out. 29:27.254 --> 29:29.895 [SPEAKER_00]: One thing that I like to say is that grief needs a place to go. 29:29.915 --> 29:35.238 [SPEAKER_00]: And so whether that is writing it out, moon it out, or talking it out. 29:35.418 --> 29:39.380 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I found that you can take a loss, write it down. 29:40.160 --> 29:50.984 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe acknowledging it, assigning an emotion to it, and then giving it to God, like literally laying it at his feet, talking to him about it. 29:51.284 --> 29:57.767 [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's also like several spiritual practices that I kind of collected over the years. 29:58.787 --> 30:07.911 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, one from my friend, Tara McDaniel, her book hopeful woman like she has like a whole slew of just amazing practices in that book. 30:08.031 --> 30:11.973 [SPEAKER_00]: But one that I found so so helpful is the tearing practice. 30:12.453 --> 30:21.938 [SPEAKER_00]: Because sometimes we wonder, um, I know I've come in contact with people or encounter people who are like, well, I don't, I don't, I don't cry or have been able to cry. 30:22.698 --> 30:52.265 [SPEAKER_00]: And so or get the in this off my chest or this emotion out and the tearing privacy is literally taken like a piece of paper or piece of fabric and tearing it and there's just she does a much better job explaining but there's like a spiritual it's a connection of this privacy that was they using the old testament and you literally tear it and you can just listen to the sounds how a soundy

and it just can bring up just things that 30:52.965 --> 30:58.568 [SPEAKER_00]: you're feeling emotionally as relates to the loss and that's been really even healing for me. 30:59.768 --> 31:01.889 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's so many different things that we can do. 31:01.909 --> 31:09.612 [SPEAKER_00]: I know journaling again writing it out is one of those things, finding safe people to talk, talk to, of course. 31:10.773 --> 31:15.915 [SPEAKER_00]: And as I've mentioned, moving it out, like movement our bodies is such a huge thing as well, right? 31:16.235 --> 31:20.517 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a powerful, yeah, the tearing is powerful image. 31:20.957 --> 31:21.918 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thank you for those. 31:22.373 --> 31:29.515 [SPEAKER_02]: How would you, what about when our kids are in pain and we're dealing with children who are grieving? 31:30.515 --> 31:35.216 [SPEAKER_02]: How do we live into the biblical narrative around grief with our kids? 31:36.076 --> 31:50.120 [SPEAKER_00]: This has been such a learning process for me, which is so great, you know, because literally in these short four years since four or five years since the pandemic of twenty-eight. 31:51.280 --> 31:59.788 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I started to process my own grief, but in doing so, it has helped me to be compassionate. 32:00.509 --> 32:08.397 [SPEAKER_00]: More compassionate when it comes to my kids and when they experience the pain and grief and be more aware. 32:08.977 --> 32:11.740 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that they are navigated in it. 32:11.800 --> 32:19.948 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, it's been like Jesus when he saw the crowds and he looked on them and he had compassion on them. 32:20.229 --> 32:27.196 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, like, you know, something that comes up to for me, like growing up, you know, you cries for your meal. 32:27.216 --> 32:27.996 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, where do you cry for? 32:28.657 --> 32:29.757 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, stop that crying. 32:29.837 --> 32:30.337 [SPEAKER_00]: What? 32:31.498 --> 32:34.338 [SPEAKER_00]: Get up and, you know, patch yourself off and keep going. 32:34.938 --> 32:40.739 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, okay, you know, that's really not, that's dismissing my pain. 32:41.400 --> 32:48.461 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, um, so the opposite of that, you know, of course, is showing compassion towards our kids when they are. 32:48.501 --> 32:51.302 [SPEAKER_00]: It's very something even, um, I like to use this story. 32:51.322 --> 32:53.282 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, my son is really into Legos. 32:54.122 --> 33:02.665 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, out of a million million, and I mean a million pieces, when one would get lost, he would lose it. 33:02.725 --> 33:10.207 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh my gosh, but showing that compassion even in that, because to him, that was his world, or that's his world, you know? 33:10.627 --> 33:15.969 [SPEAKER_00]: And so having that under that level, understand and like, no, it affects him and

it affects him deeply. 33:16.489 --> 33:22.391 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I can just imagine, you know, this is like after the fact, because of what I've learned about grief, 33:23.011 --> 33:30.821 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I just kind of imagine, you know, if I dismissed that, you know, him thinking like, okay, well, I should not be sad about anything. 33:31.983 --> 33:34.146 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it just makes me be more cognizant. 33:35.047 --> 33:45.710 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, because that how you respond to that loss, then he'll know what, you know, he'll have an expectation of how you'll respond. 33:46.090 --> 33:59.995 [SPEAKER_02]: The next time for a bigger loss or different loss, and I think just I have two boys, I think boys pick up pretty quick from our culture that boys are not supposed to cry, and that's something we have not taught them, but they 34:00.875 --> 34:07.979 [SPEAKER_02]: Pick up, and I think being able to affirm tears and not shame them when they have tears, I think. 34:09.200 --> 34:18.465 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I've just been surprised how that message comes across when that's not something we say or practice in our home, but they pick it up. 34:18.625 --> 34:24.228 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you have a new book called Black Woman Grief, a guide to hope and wholeness. 34:24.328 --> 34:27.590 [SPEAKER_02]: Could you tell us about this book and why you wrote it? 34:28.270 --> 34:35.535 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this book was I started saying that it's the sequel to can you just sit with me when I was writing it. 34:35.575 --> 34:40.578 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't think of it as that, but it kind of is because it's still answering that question. 34:40.618 --> 34:41.579 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you just sit with me? 34:41.719 --> 34:44.581 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so the book is written in a way for 34:46.042 --> 34:52.249 [SPEAKER_00]: for black women just to give space to the different types of losses that we experience. 34:52.489 --> 35:00.957 [SPEAKER_00]: I like to say that grief is grief, you know, grief is kind of that universal story of a song, but we do experience different types of losses. 35:01.578 --> 35:02.939 [SPEAKER_00]: So we have grief, right? 35:02.999 --> 35:05.561 [SPEAKER_00]: But we experience different types of losses. 35:05.621 --> 35:16.029 [SPEAKER_00]: And so this book tries to capture the many different types of losses that black women experience and just make space for them to be able to say, oh, yeah, that that happened to me. 35:16.450 --> 35:17.330 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel affirmed. 35:17.390 --> 35:18.351 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel seen. 35:18.391 --> 35:23.475 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel heard and to process that grief so that they can live more healthier lives. 35:23.535 --> 35:25.917 [SPEAKER_00]: And, of course, point them to the hope that we have in Christ. 35:26.689 --> 35:32.296 [SPEAKER_02]: This is speaking to Black women listening today who are also mothers. 35:33.197 --> 35:37.843 [SPEAKER_02]: How do you hope the message of

your book might apply to an impact their mothering? 35:38.444 --> 35:42.889 [SPEAKER_00]: What I've learned, you know, we as mothers, you know, we pass things down. 35:43.750 --> 35:56.057 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we really do, and some of the things in the book is how we, based on what we've experienced, what we have not processed, like unprocessed grief, lost trauma. 35:56.357 --> 35:58.238 [SPEAKER_00]: We pass those along to our kids. 35:58.818 --> 36:08.043 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, you know, when we were stuffing or ignoring, as we kind of talked or mentioned earlier in our conversation, it's how it leaks out. 36:08.264 --> 36:11.225 [SPEAKER_00]: And it does come off in our parenting. 36:11.626 --> 36:15.228 [SPEAKER_00]: And so again, that sends messages to our kids. 36:15.408 --> 36:17.069 [SPEAKER_00]: And then our kids become adults. 36:17.509 --> 36:19.110 [SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, what is wrong with them? 36:19.170 --> 36:21.531 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's kind of been cast down. 36:21.551 --> 36:26.774 [SPEAKER_00]: And so the healthier we become, right, the healed people, healed people, you know, healed people. 36:27.955 --> 36:44.667 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's that kind of thought behind it, like hurting people, hurt people, but this book, my prayer is that it makes space for black women to just kind of become more healed, you know, make space for healing, to acknowledge the things that have happened to 36:45.447 --> 36:50.131 [SPEAKER_00]: them and make space for God to sit with them and to heal them. 36:50.271 --> 36:58.217 [SPEAKER_00]: And then to just kind of make space for conversations with other women as well to say, we're not along alone in this. 36:58.417 --> 37:07.625 [SPEAKER_00]: And God sees us, you know, so they're able to become more healthy, healthier women to be able to pass that down to their kids. 37:08.111 --> 37:12.193 [SPEAKER_01]: So in each episode, we invite our guests to respond to a parenting question. 37:12.734 --> 37:14.595 [SPEAKER_01]: And here's today's question for you. 37:15.716 --> 37:18.697 [SPEAKER_00]: Parents often struggle with how to talk to their kids about death. 37:19.398 --> 37:20.198 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any tips? 37:20.799 --> 37:21.679 [SPEAKER_00]: How long is too young? 37:22.319 --> 37:23.260 [SPEAKER_00]: Any best practices? 37:24.341 --> 37:25.101 [SPEAKER_00]: It's so hard. 37:26.522 --> 37:28.083 [SPEAKER_00]: No matter how you put it, it is hard. 37:32.126 --> 37:37.272 [SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like having honest conversations with them is the best. 37:37.632 --> 37:49.406 [SPEAKER_00]: What I found is queues more no more than what we think they know, like they can sense, they can, they have a good sense of sadness, pain, they can, they can sense it. 37:50.027 --> 38:01.110 [SPEAKER_00]: And so depending on on age, you know, we're praying almost for discernment to be able to give them an answer for their love at their level. 38:02.150 --> 38:06.612 [SPEAKER_00]: But I have found that details is not really probably the best. 38:07.792 --> 38:16.457 [SPEAKER_00]: graphic details of what's going on so that that doesn't stick with them, but able to share in a way that they would understand. 38:16.897 --> 38:24.162 [SPEAKER_00]: But one thing that I did think about was asking the question of, you know, kind of what do they want to know? 38:24.922 --> 38:30.143 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that we're not oversharing because we can just go off on this long story. 38:30.923 --> 38:34.464 [SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, that's not, you know, this is not really what they wanted. 38:34.544 --> 38:44.866 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think sometimes we have an instinct to protect our kids from pain or to shield them. 38:44.946 --> 38:46.726 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's a good instinct. 38:46.846 --> 38:51.667 [SPEAKER_02]: And so what I hear you saying is, you know, want to totally do that, but we also don't want it. 38:52.658 --> 38:56.109 [SPEAKER_02]: over share where we're exposing them too much. 38:56.190 --> 38:59.099 [SPEAKER_02]: So it really is this delicate balance and I love what you said about. 38:59.938 --> 39:01.038 [SPEAKER_02]: praying for discernment. 39:01.198 --> 39:02.579 [SPEAKER_02]: That's what we need. 39:02.839 --> 39:05.379 [SPEAKER_02]: We need discernment and wisdom and these conversations. 39:06.239 --> 39:11.021 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, can you just sit with me and black woman grief are available wherever books are sold? 39:11.621 --> 39:14.281 [SPEAKER_02]: And you can find out more about Natasha on her website. 39:14.781 --> 39:16.562 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Natasha Smith.com. 39:16.582 --> 39:19.143 [SPEAKER_02]: That's I'm Natasha Smith.com. 39:19.743 --> 39:25.284 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for joining us Natasha and I'm wondering if you would be willing to pray for our listeners as we close. 39:26.168 --> 39:26.448 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 39:27.828 --> 39:30.229 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for inviting me to sit with you. 39:30.429 --> 39:33.930 [SPEAKER_00]: God, we just thank you and just bless your name for being so good to us, Lord God. 39:33.950 --> 39:35.650 [SPEAKER_00]: We just thank you so much for this time. 39:35.710 --> 39:39.171 [SPEAKER_00]: We thank you so much for those who are listening, Lord God. 39:39.991 --> 39:43.292 [SPEAKER_00]: Those who may be carrying loss and grief, Lord God. 39:43.312 --> 39:48.814 [SPEAKER_00]: Those who may be listening, they didn't even realize that they were grieving. 39:48.994 --> 39:53.335 [SPEAKER_00]: Lord, you said that you're close to the broken heart at Lord God, so that means you're so close to us. 39:53.975 --> 39:56.397 [SPEAKER_00]: who are navigating these hard places in our life, Lord. 39:56.417 --> 40:13.268 [SPEAKER_00]: I just pray, Lord God, that those who are listening will allow you to sit with them and that they will just bring all that they are carrying, Lord God to you and land at your feet, casting all of their cares on your Lord God because

you care so deeply for them. 40:13.908 --> 40:24.196 [SPEAKER_00]: I just pray, Lord God, that they will make space to sit with you, Lord God, with the loss in the evidence that they may feel, help them to know that they are not alone. 40:24.897 --> 40:31.362 [SPEAKER_00]: Help them to know that you are with them, Lord God, and that you're covering them with your comfort, your love, your peace. 40:32.082 --> 40:34.806 [SPEAKER_00]: And that they are totally singing by you. 40:35.006 --> 40:37.308 [SPEAKER_00]: You see each one of them work on. 40:38.089 --> 40:40.572 [SPEAKER_00]: And you are with him through it all. 40:41.073 --> 40:44.216 [SPEAKER_00]: We thank you so much, Lord God, just help us to remember these things. 40:44.257 --> 40:47.280 [SPEAKER_00]: Help us to remember who you are in Jesus name we pray. 40:47.480 --> 40:47.721 [SPEAKER_00]: Amen. 40:48.521 --> 40:48.822 [SPEAKER_02]: Amen. 40:59.099 --> 41:05.582 [SPEAKER_02]: And now it's time for steal this idea, a simple, practical way to take today's conversation and live it out at home. 41:06.143 --> 41:07.924 [SPEAKER_02]: Try it, tweak it, make it your own. 41:08.184 --> 41:16.688 [SPEAKER_02]: The goal is not to replicate exactly what I do with my family, but to practice the beautifully distinct and compelling way of Jesus' wars. 41:17.008 --> 41:26.133 [SPEAKER_02]: For today's idea, I want to build on the practice that Natasha mentioned during our conversation of tearing or ripping something as a way to express grief. 41:26.733 --> 41:31.236 [SPEAKER_02]: In the Bible, there are many examples of people tearing their clothing when they're overcome with grief. 41:31.676 --> 41:45.224 [SPEAKER_02]: For example, when Jacob believes his son Joseph has been killed, Genesis thirty-seven, starting at first thirty-four, says this, then Jacob tore his clothes, put on sackcloth, and mourned for his son many days. 41:45.784 --> 41:49.767 [SPEAKER_02]: All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. 41:50.442 --> 41:55.224 [SPEAKER_02]: No, he said, I will continue to mourn until I join my son in the grave. 41:55.884 --> 41:57.765 [SPEAKER_02]: So his father wept for him. 41:58.426 --> 42:04.708 [SPEAKER_02]: This practice of tearing one's clothes called Cria and Hebrew is still practice today. 42:05.269 --> 42:11.631 [SPEAKER_02]: In modern Jewish practice, many people wear a small black ribbon on their clothes after the death of a loved one. 42:12.192 --> 42:17.214 [SPEAKER_02]: This ribbon is torn right before the funeral and then it's worn for seven days. 42:18.257 --> 42:27.859 [SPEAKER_02]: What I love about the idea of ripping is that it's an outward visible sign of the invisible damage and anguish going on inside. 42:28.539 --> 42:35.820 [SPEAKER_02]: And for kids, I think this can be an incredibly helpful way to express and to visualize their grief. 42:36.120 --> 42:37.600 [SPEAKER_02]: So the idea is pretty simple. 42:37.961 --> 42:45.722 [SPEAKER_02]: You'll need some fabric that you can tear, old t-shirts are great, and you'll probably need to make a small cut with some scissors to get it going. 42:47.068 --> 42:51.309 [SPEAKER_02]: Begin by welcoming God into the moment and thanking Him for His presence. 42:51.909 --> 42:54.730 [SPEAKER_02]: You could read Psalm thirty-four eighteen out loud. 42:55.290 --> 43:00.311 [SPEAKER_02]: The Lord is close to the broken hearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. 43:00.711 --> 43:06.312 [SPEAKER_02]: Next, invite your family to share as they're able with words their grief. 43:06.792 --> 43:09.253 [SPEAKER_02]: To express their sorrow directly to God. 43:09.833 --> 43:12.094 [SPEAKER_02]: So God, I'm grieving this. 43:12.174 --> 43:15.035 [SPEAKER_02]: God, my heart is breaking about this. 43:15.175 --> 43:17.196 [SPEAKER_02]: God, I'm so sad. 43:18.457 --> 43:20.558 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes words are too much. 43:20.658 --> 43:26.320 [SPEAKER_02]: We can't actually formulate sentences and put our grief into words, and that's okay. 43:26.360 --> 43:31.963 [SPEAKER_02]: But as your family is able, take some time to share your sorrow together before God. 43:33.188 --> 43:38.769 [SPEAKER_02]: After everyone has shared that wants to, you could offer this simple prayer, and I'll put this in the show notes. 43:39.430 --> 43:51.653 [SPEAKER_02]: God of love, as a sign of sorrow, as a protest against death in justice and loss, as an act of holy defiance against what should not be, we tear this cloth. 43:52.613 --> 43:56.836 [SPEAKER_02]: Not to sever hope, but to open our hearts in grief before you. 43:57.536 --> 43:58.917 [SPEAKER_02]: Hold us in our sorrow. 43:59.597 --> 44:00.978 [SPEAKER_02]: Meet us in the tearing. 44:01.438 --> 44:03.520 [SPEAKER_02]: And do not let this grief be wasted. 44:04.240 --> 44:04.560 [SPEAKER_02]: Amen. 44:05.521 --> 44:11.564 [SPEAKER_02]: At that point, you could invite everyone to tear their cloth and hold a moment of silence as you are able. 44:12.085 --> 44:15.186 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you could close by reading Psalm thirty-four eighteen again. 44:15.727 --> 44:20.570 [SPEAKER_02]: The Lord is close to the broken hearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. 44:21.550 --> 44:28.847 [SPEAKER_02]: So this is a practice that can be adapted for kids of any age and so in times of grief and loss, I encourage you to give it a try. 44:33.425 --> 44:37.327 [SPEAKER_02]: The Teacher Children Well Podcast is a production of inner varsity press. 44:37.867 --> 44:48.672 [SPEAKER_02]: For more information on any IVP titles mentioned in this episode, visit ivpress.com and use code ivp-teach-twenty-five. 44:48.972 --> 44:53.454 [SPEAKER_02]: That's ivp-tea-c-h-two-five. 44:53.934 --> 44:57.056 [SPEAKER_02]: For twenty-five percent off and free US shipping. 44:57.956 --> 45:04.920 [SPEAKER_02]: Sound engineering by honest podcasts, our producers are Helen Lee, Caitlin Borek, and Travis Albertan. 45:05.500 --> 45:07.421 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host Sarah Cowen Johnson. 45:07.982 --> 45:16.867 [SPEAKER_02]: Don't forget to subscribe to our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or the IVP YouTube channel, and leave a rating and review to support the show.