บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Challenging Expectations: Spirituality and Psychology, Hope in a Pandemic, and Growing a Family, with Christin & Evan

tripping over my words. And I don't know what to ask or what to say. And it's because I know it is because I'm like, No, I don't want you to experience any pain at all. But in my job, I know that pain is a source of growth. Yeah. So I guess I'm saying that because it's like, that was a realization we had just recently I was sitting there and I was like, if this was anyone other than my son. I would I would exactly know how to do this. But the only way through it was I think is through some pain. And I was like, No, I just can't, I can't recommend that to my own son.   Jenna Fortinski  07:49 It is and it's kind of like the like I think of the phrase the shoemakers daughter, right? Let you know, like we it's very easy to do for others. But as soon as it's it comes to our own. It's so well, there's so much more attached to it. There's so much more risk, there's so much more vulnerability, right? So it's so much harder to navigate. And because I've had people say to me all the time, well, your daughters are so lucky because they have a psychologist for a mom and I'm thinking oh, not really. I'm not really right. Like I'm a mom, I'm not a psychologist to that. Right. So. And if anything, poor kids, I think but   Evan  08:26 I think that's how we were interviewing our children. That's probably they'd say, Yeah, being a pastor's kid isn't always great. Yeah. I wouldn't say they would say it's horrible, either. No, we're somewhere in the middle. Definitely. Somewhere in the middle. Yeah. But our youngest would probably just tell you that it means he has to stay the latest at church and that sucks. So   Nicki Kirlin  08:51 that's, that's a valid concern. Again,   Jenna Fortinski  08:54 like Kristen said, the minds of kids, right? Like, it's an amazing thing. Like truly right, that that would be the drawback, right? Oh, my goodness.   Nicki Kirlin  09:04 So, um, one of the first questions that we wanted to ask you, and we're going to direct this to you, Evan is about sort of an understanding of being in a pastor role, or in maybe the role of maybe doing some spiritual type of counseling. How do you kind of navigate this nature of your work where you've got this piece around, maybe mental health? And then you've also got this piece around spirituality? How do you like, you know, how, how does that all kind of come together and unfold in, in your in the work that you do? Sort of being in that spiritual counselor kind of role?   Evan  09:43 Yeah. So I would say a couple things come to mind right off the top of my head. The first thing is, I think that God created us and that God gave us creativity to be a part of what's happening in the journey that we're on, I would take that right out of Genesis, right? That actually in that story, right, it's like God creates mankind, and creates all things. And there's a common statement in the creation story. And that is that he says, and it was good. So most people don't realize, I would say that they were created good,

especially religious church people. We were taught actually, that were quite bad. Like most of our stories, the way we were taught a face journey story was that it started actually in like Genesis three, when, when, you know, of course, you know, Eve. It's an apple, which this is metaphoric language, right? There wasn't necessarily an apple, but, and that that's actually where we think our creation story starts that were actually born bad somehow, I don't actually think that's true. But what's interesting in that whole creation story, if I could just backtrack a little bit as that it's like, God invites Adam to be a part of naming the animals, he actually invites him to be part of the creative story. And I think God gave us the ability to imagine and to create, and to come up with even new ideas. So, so this is kind of where I find science is actually an important thing, right? It says, I actually God gave you the capacity to create things like vaccines and other cool things. And I think also, he gave us the ability to study and understand with these inquisitive minds, how the brain works, how the mind works, how all of those things work. So there are moments when I actually would say, You know what, I think we need God's help in healing. And I think probably the best place to start that journey would be over at the counselor's office. In fact, I actually said that to somebody this week. Oh, my gosh, can you tell we are parents, and we have a kid who is literally running around upstairs, above our head, I really hope he gets out as loud in the microphone as it is right now. Because I'm about to, like, demonstrate some poor parenting through a bank recording. No, this is what I this is what I said to somebody. Just recently, they started telling me their story. There was a sense that somehow, this was a spiritual problem that was taking place. And they, they thought they had a spiritual problem. And probably there was a component of that. But it was also trauma. And the there is a little bit where I was like, I'm listening to them talk. And I realize, no, you're actually describing triggering language, you're actually describing trauma. And the way that I ended up talking to them was, you know, God has given some psychologists some really incredible tools at working through the healing process from trauma. And maybe it's possible that God is just now giving you the courage to, to work towards healing. So, and then I give them, you know, my favorite psychologist number. And I think that that's one of the ways that that I have done that I caught clearly walk alongside people who have questions about faith, who have questions about how God sees them, and how they are, how they see the world. I think some of those things are spiritual, I think for sure, right now, in the middle of the pandemic, that is all screwed up. Mm hmm. And that, that, as a spiritual leader, part of my calling is to say, Look, your faith isn't just contingent on how God sees you, but how he's asking you to see others. So these would be some of the kinds of questions that I would say, are human questions framed in the context of our faith? Yeah. So ultimately, what I've hopefully you've heard in this is a very long answer that it's like, we were made good. And we forget that. We, we just forget that.   Christin  14:30 So think in addition to what I've been saying, which is all good and true, we are also made to survive. And I think a lot of us are so deep in our survival and ego right now that our brains are lying to us. So a lot of times, I think the crossover between spiritual care and professional counseling is a little bit of figuring out what, what's really happening is, is the fight or flight that I'm feeling and have been feeling for 18 months telling me the truth about what's happening right now. And or like, is that triggering something that I need to work deeper on to survive? Or is it like you can overcome some things just by having a little self awareness about how you see the world and how the world interacts with you, and then kind of bridge that gap quite well, who are the caregivers I need to have in my life, who are the this was I'm stealing your line, but who are the people I need around my table, who can help me to calm down a little   Evan  15:42 bit process through something   Christin  15:45 able to figure out what's real, and where I should fight and where I should find peace. And it takes, it takes a lot of people and I think at its most intense, which I have felt this, I haven't felt so anxious and afraid and angry. ever in my life, as you know, I have this year, so and I have control over my environment. So if you don't have control over the environment, I just don't really know. I think our our level of navigating the world, none of us have been this. Right? We just we, you just have not. So no, just need more people speaking into that. So you know, spiritual advice, friends, family, but you have to have more people at the table than you've ever needed?   Evan  16:44 No, I would, I would say even adding to that, that it's like, I don't think ever has there been a time where such a large group of people and I'm talking in particular, North America has experienced such a vulnerability. And it's, it's more than just like a physical vulnerability. It's a it's a mental and a spiritual vulnerability. And which are maybe harder to see, like, it's easy to see that physically, you could you could get sick, wear masks, you know, get a vaccine or whatever is like whatever side, you see yourself on, do what you need to do, because you're vulnerable. Right? But, but being mentally vulnerable with others around us, we're being spiritually vulnerable with God with our authentic prayers. We harder to see, right. Like, it's just harder to notice those things. And it's like, one of the things I find is interesting is that I often as a pastor, I'm not I'm not a priest, not Catholic, I'm not a priest. I don't

take confessions, but I do it a lot of ways. Speaking to some people, and they were like, essentially confessing to me, how angry they were with God for some things that were going in, and if somebody had gotten sick, to be honest with you, and and very angry. And then we're feeling really bad about the prayers that they prayed. Right. And it was an interesting thing, because I was like, Well, you know, actually, God wants us to be who He created us to be. And he knows who that is. And I think maybe our life is the journey of trying to figure that out for ourselves. And what if it's possible that your prayers to God were the most authentic prayers you've ever prayed? And therefore, exactly what he was asking and has always been asking of us. Yeah. And I think that that's a part of the spiritual work, that sometimes only a pastor can say to somebody that you know what, yeah, pray the authentic prayers. He's actually a fairly big God. And he knows anyway, so why doesn't right? And that maybe that's some of the spiritual care that we can give people is that the prisons we put ourselves in, whether they're spiritual, or situation or mental, or whatever they might be. We don't need to stay there. Yeah, and certainly God doesn't want us to. Yeah. So. And actually, that applies to other gods. This is not just a Christian perspective. Yeah, that actually applies to most of the other faith communities as well.   Jenna Fortinski  19:33 So I like the way you you guys framed it that you know, spirituality and mental health are not mutually exclusive, right? Like they very much combine and they collide. And I love that you guys both see it that way that you know, the more essentially, the more community you can create around yourself, the better off you are right and and especially, you know, jumping on what Kristen had said, is that we have been We are going through something that no one has ever gone through before right now. And, you know, the this, the simple statement of your brain is playing tricks on you like, that is so true. And that really captures what's happening right now. And I'm like, I've noticed in private practice, I've been having this conversation of, you know, what is the meaning of my life? Why am I here? Right? People, because of the state that we've been in for the past year and a half, almost two years, is now we're confronted with this reality of what life is about and being able to really, you know, look at the deeper meaning of life. And that's where I think spirituality kind of sneaks in, right, is that it makes this beautiful entrance into people's life saying, oh, like, you know that there is more to life than just this rat race, this, you know, this, going to work getting up going to work or getting up going to work. And so yeah, so I love that there is that that collision, essential intersection? Yeah, of mental health and, and spirituality, because I think that there is so much value in both right?   Evan  21:07 I would say to like, as a pastor, this is not true of other pastors necessarily. So I won't speak for us all. The first like, eight months of the pandemic, were really great. And, and I think this is the reason why I would say that is it was like, all the sudden, I was talking to people about what was really happening, and what they were really going through. And their questions were big. And there was there, there wasn't always perfect answers. And it was mysterious. But we were, we were able to walk and talk and journey together together on that. As it prolonged and we started trying to figure out capable church, people get back together again. And it's our you know, it's our right to know, all this craziness started happening. But counselors are supposed to word crazy, sorry, fusion was all this confusion. Other than ended up being like, we start talking about church again. Yeah. And I hate to say that like that, but that's what it felt like. And it's like, oh, I longed for those raw, authentic conversations, where we're asking the big, the big ones, like, what am I here for? What was I created for? You know, and that's, that's why pastors want to be pastors to talk about those things, you know, and, and, and help people kind of discover what they were made for. Yeah, and what brings joy and what's life giving, and all of those kinds of things. So we actually aren't huge fans of talking about running the church.   Christin  22:50 No, it kills me. That's why I could never be a pastor. I can't even I hate meetings, talking about the same thing over and over and over.   Jenna Fortinski  22:58 Yeah, I know. I know. I know. Right? Like the logistics of it. Right? And, and the political side of things, right. But, you know, it's, I'm, like, yes, the pandemic has been awful, but I am excited for a very select few people that are able to start to look at some of these deeper questions in their life and, and really find something exciting in their life and to figure out, you know, what is their purpose here? And, and why do I wake up each morning and what, you know, what do I want to be doing? And how do I get more aligned with my values and, and to live a value based life? Right? And so I get excited when people ask me those questions like, yes, like, let's get that fire going. Right.   Evan  23:41 And that's even when you it is and even when you're even discovering that you don't have any. Yeah, for him values. Yeah, is a part of that journey, that it's like, Oh, I've actually never thought about what I value. Yes. Like, oh, I that is that's fun stuff. Oh, I guess for some personalities. That's fun stuff. Exactly. But, but it is the beginning of a pretty awesome journey. Yeah. And towards, towards a deeper, more fulfilled life. Yeah. And I think that's true of any counselor. It's true of any pastor. That's true of what God wants for us. So, so I think that's some of the some of the things that I both have loved. And then it has felt like, you know, as we figure

out the logistics and, and, and the church, to be honest with you, over the last like 18 months. Well, I'll just say it. I don't think the Christians have represented ourselves very well. And I think that should be something we're looking at. Yeah, and, and so it's like, what does that look like then for us? And and I do think that You know, even, you know, even related to some of the other things that have happened in the last 20 months, like, George, the George Floyd, like, like, in Canada, this story that our indigenous people have known since the beginning of Canada that so many of us did not learn. Yeah, I probably was supposed to learn. I was here in Canada, I probably was supposed to learn and was just not paying attention. Or, or wasn't taught it. Yeah. And it is and the church's role in that. And I think there's some truth telling that needs to happen. In order for for healing to go on. And it sucks. It's so fun. I mean, that's the truth telling I don't like very much   Christin  25:54 telling I love. That's the truth telling that actually does something that I come on. Yeah, I like the the slow incremental work that you guys do. And you guys do. That's not my jam. I like I like the hard truth. Yeah, I like hearing it. Even if it hurts, and I like giving it. And that's I don't have a lot of friends. I'm just kidding.   Nicki Kirlin  26:21 Your support table is very small. quite lonely.   Jenna Fortinski  26:26 Table for one,   Christin  26:27 please. Yeah, exactly. But no, I think there's that part to where people are starting this incremental. There's a lot of people, I've never understood it. But there's a lot of people who can go through their entire life. Getting up and leaving for work at the same time and sitting in the same chair and driving the same route and coming home and having the same food and watching the same show and going to bet I do not understand that. And this move the you know, the pandemic moved to their cheese. So that's a, that's a thing for people to sort through that the self awareness of who I am and where I am in the world and how I impact the world. They don't get to sit there anymore. And then there's, you know, I would say that's one side of the spectrum. And there's this other side of the spectrum that's like, I'm dying to talk about big questions. Before the pandemic, I was causing so much trouble. And I loved it. I had so much fun, I was having big meetings with big people. And   Evan  27:27 that like, like, seemingly important people, not the big people, not the heavy, yes, not heavy people.   Christin  27:35 Talking about the things that are like, like what we're talking about. And so I'm super fascinated by the idea that we have minds and spirits. And that, that is the what we're feeling what we're experiencing in the world is colliding with survival. And, you know, I'm, I don't want to fast forward but I'm super excited to see five years from now what we look back on and how we feel and think about

this for people and the things that are supposed to shake out that are the important things are shaking out. They are the important things. Yes. What who moved your cheese is not important. But the baby that disappeared. That's important. The child who took their own life that's important that yeah, you know, who I am and, and in real life in truth, yeah. And so it's a really good it's gonna be we're gonna look back, this is my prediction. There's going to be a renaissance of mental health therapy and spiritual health therapy because there's, I don't know if you guys have heard of Richard Rohr. in Christian circles, he's a bit of a shit disturb server, which I like. He's a Anglican priest, Anglican.   Evan  28:58 Oh, he's a Franciscan Franciscan priest   Christin  29:03 in New Mexico. And he talks about this idea that when you're, when your mind opens up to a new reality, or a new way of thinking that's beyond the boundaries that you originally had. You can't go back. You can't retreat from that you can't go back to your old self and your original self. You also have a really hard time having compassion on the people who haven't had that new reality and that new thing. But every human on planet Earth has experienced this pandemic together at the same time, we didn't all have the same scenario, but we have a common thing. Yeah. What is that going to do? That is so exciting. When you when you look at the whole thing from 30,000 feet or whatever, yeah. Come on. Let's bring it on. Let's talk about that.   Evan  29:59 I think To like, what are the things he talks about? And, you know, to reiterate, kind of what Chris is saying is that he, he sees growth as that we all go through a process of or from order to disorder to reorder. And that this is just the process of growth. And it's happening over and over and over and over again. And so we're 47. And there's definitely have been spaces, even on specific topics that we've gone through. We thought we had it all in order. And then somebody got sick. Yeah, God didn't keep them safe. Yeah. Or they died from cancer, or they, whatever, we go into a state of disorder, and then we begin to reorder that, and the reality is we were meant to grow. And so as soon as that reordered state gets too much in order, Yeah, guess what? It rolls again. And, and, and I think that, that like, that can be exciting for somebody who is a caregiver, whose value is to see people grow, like, like, counselors, pastors. But I also recognize, and this is maybe why I think I can be a little bit more patient and slower with some of these things is, is terrifying. It's terrifying. And you know, when we were kids, Christians use this metaphor on on unpacked, you know, we were kids, we made those like, pillow forts, you know, you'd gather all the pillows in the house and make yourself an awesome little Ford in the living room or wherever, right? And, and there is a sense that you are safe in this Ford that you built. But the reality is, it's made of pillows. And sooner or later, Mom's gonna make you clean it up for anyways. No, but exactly, but it's not. It is an illusion of safety. Yeah, and I think that what's happened in this last 18 months, is that the illusion that we were safe, was taken down for some, and what a scary, terrifying experience. And it's so this, I want to ask you, can I ask you a question? Yeah, go for it. We're talking lots, you're gonna have to edit lots,   Christin  32:22 so she can edit it out.   Evan  32:26 Here's what's fascinating, my observation, when the pandemic hit, people who had been doing mental health work on themselves before the pandemic, that I thought I needed to check in on and make sure they were okay. We're doing way better than people who had never done any mental health work. And it was just like that, as a person who leads a community and wants to care for that community. Well, it was like, alright, thought I knew who I needed to check in and care for. And I was checking in on people who had all the tools to deal with a world they felt was out of control already. Yeah. And it was the people who were like, so put together and figured out that we're all all over the place. So that's, this is my question. How, how often am I like, what did you notice? It felt like that. And I was like, people that typically I would have watched to go, that's what he was kind of got figured out. Didn't.   Jenna Fortinski  33:32 And I think that like, again, that goes back to that illusion of safety and that illusion of, of what your, your Ford is made of. Right. And, and I think that's why, like, it's exciting for me that now people are getting a little bit squeamish, because I think people are understanding what growth is about and that growth is not just, you know, taking the kids to hockey four times a week, and then you know, going to a full time job and then, you know, going to you know, these this place, this place, doing these things, doing these dinners and whatever, that people are starting to see, okay, you know, what, there's more to life and that, you know, like there's, we have to grow in other ways that life is about more, right is that it's not just about all these specific things that I'm doing right? Life is about more and so people are starting to, like squirm in their seats, because like you said, you know, there's order disorder order disorder, right. And so I think that's part of the disorder right now is that people are saying, wow, like, you know, what is my life and what is my life a bow because I don't have hockey, you know, four times a week, and I don't have, you know, all my dinner parties and I don't have so what is my life about? And people that were seeking mental health support before the pandemic, were already challenging those thought processes and challenging that lifestyle, right, recognizing that life wasn't just about that stuff. And I think now the is the emergence of the people that were on, you know, those those

quantum hamster wheel. And now they're saying, oh, like, you know, there's, there's more or I'm missing something or there's something missing from my life. So and and I think that's where maybe the like we talked about at the beginning that the deceit in our brains fray the deceit of and this the deceit of the messages that that's what life is about is the more you do, the more you are right. And, and that's such a, such a deceiving message because really, truly, it's about quality and time. And that's what life is about and values, right and. And that's a really hard message for people to internalize it's a very difficult path to venture down. And because it really means questioning everything that you're doing, and questioning what your life is really, truly about. Are you living in a way that aligns with what's important to you? Mm hmm. And that is so hard to look at.   Evan  36:00 So true. And it like, it kind of brings it down to you know, that it was a full stop deal there, you know, for a while was like, if your identity was caught up in the things that you you do, or we're doing. And all of those things got stopped. Yeah. And now have become more difficult to continue to do. Yes. Whether it's go to your job or taking your kid to soccer, it's harder, you know, your some of your identity is is brought into question. You know, one of the things we I've shared, I'm sure you've heard this some so many times before, but it's right. We are not human doings. We're human beings. And it's really tricky to figure out what I don't know what that means to me then. Yeah, like, what does it mean for Evan to just be yes. And I suck at it. I'm terrible at it. Because I both of us, probably we could say suck at it. Because we are doers. We like to get stuff done. Yeah. And, and often when I find myself needing, like, having a little mental health challenges. I go out and start doing something in my shop, because I feel like I have to do something with my hands so that my brain can process through whatever really hard thing it is that I'm trying to figure out. Yeah. And   Christin  37:24 both of us are on. That's it. I don't know if your listeners are familiar with Enneagram.   Jenna Fortinski  37:31 No, I listened. We listened to your podcast that you guys just released the town to time. Yeah. Loved it. So good. Yeah. So you know that you both love to jump to the future?   Christin  37:41 We're out we do. We're also because we're future oriented people. We are like Ivan said, We're doers, but we're actually repressing feelings. And so part of understanding and growing is knowing yourself but also telling the truth about that. And so Evan, just describe something that I think a lot of people can understand there is a segment of the population who are feeling people. There is even a segment of the population who like feeling pain, like pushing bruises, and it means something is happening for you if you if you feel pain. We're not like that. We're pain avoiders, so neither of us want to feel it. We just want to accomplish it and do it and jump to the conclusion part of things. And I think that's how we've been surviving basically this past year and a half. Which we   Jenna Fortinski  38:39 which would be so hard because there is no conclusion. Right? Like there is no end in sight. So like, what a difficult position to be in,   Nicki Kirlin  38:47 right? We   Christin  38:48 don't know. No, no, because we don't feel that so. Okay, we are busy. So that we don't feel it.   Evan  38:55 No, God. We feel it. We feel no, no, no, no. We feel it. But in my case, we feel in my case, I try to turn it into logic as quickly as possible. Yeah. Because I, I like it's a failure. I would read in this book and one of the authors of the book that counts counselor, it's called Why emotions matters screen little buck. Yeah. Anyway. And it talks about how emotions are signals. They're important information. You know, I'm preaching to the choir here. I loved it. Because but at the beginning of it, it's like, all emotions are are good. And I'm sitting there reading this. Yeah, I was like, oh, hill to the New York.   Evan  39:55 Worked out. I was like, nope, not sir. But I always tell people you should read I read books that you disagree with, because it's good for you. Yeah. So I kept reading and I actually did start to really enjoy the book but, but that was really challenging for him. And then realizing that I was probably I had probably picked up why emotions matter because I was feeling all kinds of emotions and just didn't know what was happening. Yeah, don't like it didn't know what to do with it. You know, feeling anger, feeling fear, feeling. Sadness, you know, I, I always tease Tara, I've said this on the on on pact quite a few times with Tara like, goodness sakes, let us not use the word sorrow. Yeah, to me. Sorrow is like, a card of pain. And I don't want to do it. Right. Like, we have another psychologist friend that's been on on the podcast before. She she teases me about it. She's like, Yeah, when you feel sad, we will talk about sorrow. Like, okay, good. I'm gonna be okay. But that's, yeah, that's just like, everybody is managing their way through this thing, the only way that they know how, or how they were taught. And, and I think that, on some levels, that's hard. As a caregiver of people, that is hard, because I would like to see people move a little bit beyond their default position, to learning some new skills and tricks, to working through things. And I really think that, like, spiritually, I really think that that's what God is more about, then anything else? Yeah. And so, you know, you, we started the whole thing by asking, you know, what's the spiritual component to mental health? Well, the spiritual component to mental health is that God is a healing God. Yeah, he, his heart is to heal. And we see that in, you know, in the scriptures, we see that in the life of Jesus. And, and it is not a

wave of magic God wand. And you're all better. Like, I want to. I get so annoying Christians who are like, just pray that away? Did you even get that? Even in the Bible? But what's fascinating, right, is that it's like when you look at the healing stories of Jesus, for example, let me just preacher out here for a second. When you look at the healing stories of Jesus and the people who came to Jesus for healing, almost every time he asks, what is it that you need from me? He makes people name, what, what they need. And, and then he does, you know, other crazy stuff, you know, like, there's a story of Bartimaeus story. Blind man comes to Jesus, he's clearly blind. We have a blind guy in our church, he is obviously blind, the dog that's walking with Him is other evidence of it, right? And so this blind guy comes to Jesus, he calls out for Jesus. And he finds himself in front of Jesus. And Jesus says, what is it that you need is, in my mind, it's a definition of a stupid question. So Jesus asked dumb questions to anyway, the guy, the guy said Jesus is what you need. And the guy says, Well, I would like to see. Yeah. And he says, your site is restored, and your sins are forgiven. Now go your way. And what's so fast, but I love that story. Because he gives him a site back. He heals other hidden things. In his story, that even likely he didn't see. And then he frees them to go, there was no expectation that this man would follow Jesus, or that would do, you would do something for God to earn it back or to get to the whatever. Yeah, it was literally the freeing of this man. The healing of this guy, and I think that's, that's the spiritual aspect of who this God is. And we just think he's mad all the time. It's so so hard, because that has been a reinforced idea that people have is that God is angry. And that isn't what I'm seeing in the story.   Evan  44:28 So I think that the spiritual aspect of mental health, the spiritual aspect of all these things is that it's like, identifying that we have challenges, some that we can name and understand and some that we need help to name and understand. It's actually a very spiritual practice. And if you didn't learn how to do that before, this pandemic, you're not learning it very well right now either. Yeah. Like it's kind of a skill, right? That it's like, learning to Be self awareness. It's like hard work? Absolutely. It is.   Nicki Kirlin  45:05 But I do like I, I want to wrap this part of the conversation, I do want to move on to another topic that we want to talk to you both about. But I do just want to say that I think it's really beautiful, how you all have reframed this experience that we've been living in and kind of looking forward to the future. Weird, right? I know my superpower. Yeah, looking forward, like we're, you know, we're you the way that you all have framed this is it instills a sense of hope, right, that this that what we've been given is a gift in a sense, I know, I'll probably get lots of

trouble for saying that people are going to be angry at me, but it is it's a gift because it's given us an opportunity to, to reflect, to learn to, to grow in so many different ways. And it's just the start, right? Like, we're just we're going into this next phase of what the rest of our lives are going to look like after the pandemic now, right. So I just Yeah, I think it's, it's wonderful that you all have been able to, to frame it in that way, and really, really make it a you know, a positive, we can make it a positive experience. If, if our heads are in the right places, so Okay, so I want to switch gears because we do want to, we would love for you both to share your story about growing your family and the the wonderful little family that you have. We want to hear the ins and outs of how this all came to be.   Evan  46:32 Yes, sure. You want me to just give you some facts right off the bat about her kids and kind of all this stuff. And then we'll know the ins and outs of the story. We have four kids, two biological, and two adopted. And they're staggered. So we have our 24 year old son, his biological son, our 18 year old daughter is adopted from Ethiopia, our 17 year old daughter, his biological daughter, and our 12 year old son. Oh my gosh. Can you edit out that hesitation? I really love it. I love this as much as you he he is from Ethiopia as well. He's adopted from Ethiopia as well. So they're kind of staggered. What? Yeah, it's been, it's been quite a journey for us. And in terms of how we have grown our family, I think we always wanted to have big family. Kristen comes from a family of five, five kids, sorry. And and then I have three sisters. So a family of four as well. So so we both kind of come from big families. And I always wanted that, and it didn't always feel like that was going to be real for us. So fair.   Christin  48:12 Yep. I thought I would have 10 kids when we were before we had kids we would and not out of my body. I Oh, okay. Yeah, not a dagger, but that. I thought that I would have just kids, kids, kids all around me all the time. We actually used to drive long trips, because Evans family lived in Saskatchewan. My family lives in the Seattle area. And so visiting family meant road trips. And we would daydream about having like, a large foster home or things like that, just bringing lots of kids into our lives. Now, when I look back on that, oh my gosh, I was so dumb. The amount of work that that would have been. Okay,   Evan  49:02 because Didn't you say the last book. The last book title you were gonna write was how to parent from the coach. Yeah. I'm gonna call us the folks   Christin  49:10 that I actually have in me it's growing in me is how to parent without getting off the couch.   Nicki Kirlin  49:16 So bestseller. Yeah, I want that. Yes, bestseller. Guaranteed.   Christin  49:21 Soar idealistic youth, dreaming of our family was that we would have lots of kids, we would create our family in a creative way. Evan was born into that. So it took him some time to think that through and figure out how that adoption and other things could add to our family. My parents are foster parents. And so it made total sense to me that that would be a way that you would grow your family early on.   Evan  49:50 And not only were they foster kids, you have two adopted siblings. Yeah. That were Foster. Yeah, that were fostering so yep. So   Christin  49:59 we Surprise, get pregnant with our first child have no idea if that means we're good at it or not.   Evan  50:06 Oh, we were good at it. We just   Christin  50:09 made a baby.   Evan  50:13 Yeah, we were young. Yeah, we were. Yeah, I guess we just didn't know how birth control work because we weren't really   Christin  50:18 many asked me at our birthing classes if we were old enough, like if we were of age to have babies like that's so yeah, we live. And so we had this, this kid come into our lives. And he's awesome. He was he's an easy baby. Like the kind that makes you feel like you're really good parent because he would just like walk over and go to bed. Oh, I'm not kidding. Oh, my   Nicki Kirlin  50:44 God. Yeah, I   Christin  50:44 thought it was me. It was not me.   Evan  50:48 You still like that? You still I still was like, I'm going to bed. These girls back?   50:55 What a dream. Yeah.   Christin  50:57 But then we decide, you know, it's time to you should have your kids I don't know, everybody has a theory two years, three years apart time to time to make that happen. And it wasn't happening. And our oldest was six. And the journey of infertility is it's hard. And it's it's rude and invasive. And I was like, I'm done. I need a sure thing. I need to pay my money and get a baby. This is we're not doing this. But it was at the level of of survival was like, No, I need to be able to control this. This isn't keep trying things that maybe don't work. And also we're not rich people. So to keep on, you know, at the point that it got where I'm sorry, getting real expensive, where health care wasn't covering what we were doing.   Evan  51:49 And and then remember, we're both feeling repressed. Yes. So if you imagine every, you know, every 30 days, there's this massive disappointment for several years that was going on and, you know, little exploratory surgeries and trying to figure out all these things. And my, my part of that story, which was so interesting, I'm not afraid to share this, but it's like, for the longest time, the first appointment we had with a specialist, were these two young kids there, you'll really, and this guy asks us so. So you already have a baby. Right? Yep, we have. And he looks at Chris and he goes and is for sure. His Yeah, she's like, yes, it's for sure. His and then she He asked you again at the next appointment when I wasn't there. She's like, yes. But but he essentially just decided, okay, well, if he's fathered a child, it's for sure. And I him. Yeah. So they did all kinds of things

on Kristen, to figure out what it was. And when it started to it started to get expensive and we had to spend pen spend some money on some things. He was like, we're going to test Evan real quick just to make sure. And lo and behold, it's me. Interesting. And that was you know, from a I want to be straight up that was the hardest thing. Yeah, I remember telling Kristen all this, you know, if we have just Josiah, we're going to be happy and we can we were going to be okay. I am. I am fulfilled it telling her all these things that try to reassure the moment. I heard it was me. I was like, Oh, are we doing something about this? This is gonna be okay. All of a sudden, I was like, Oh, this is what it feels like. I don't like this, you know, and, and I grew up like just yeah, don't fill in a little Christmas just alluding to. I grew up in small town, Saskatchewan. I knew no one. Well, I knew one person who was adopted us he was a bit weird. So only one but it was one of those kind of things where I was like,   Evan  54:08 I I think I want all my kids to match. I think deep down I want I want my family to look like and this is not a deep   Christin  54:18 down thing for you. This is actually a family culture at what at every family gathering that we have on Evans side of the family. We talked about who looks like who they put pictures on the fridge all the time of them and the kids and the cousins and mixing and matching and see who looks like who it's a value. It's a high value. The genetics passing down to generations is an important part of our of your family growing up   Evan  54:44 Yeah, except my family is the family who quite literally loves the world.   Christin  54:48 Oh, totally. No.   Evan  54:52 No, no. What what? It's funny, not feeling defensive. Defensive. No I don't don't think we ever knew we were doing that. Now that it's like, even still, it's not something that I would you know, notice or pick out. And what's funny is we started an adoption journey. Kristin and I did. And it was contagious. Yeah. So I'll get into that. I can share more about that later how contagious it was. But it's it's really contagious in the DeWalt family,   Christin  55:25 we can get a lot we can make this fast. Yeah, we can go faster. So anyway, we can't get pregnant. And I'm all done with poking and prodding and worrying, and I gotta have something I can control. And so I'm ready for adoption. Evan has is a thinker. So we have to think about that he has to get to that his own. Bring in slow self his own way. Evan went to Haiti for the first time. And that same year, and someone there said, take my baby, yeah, with you. And sometimes, like we were talking about with that roar, quote, you need that moment that kind of opened your mind to the possibility of a new thing so that you can go there, right? And that's not a real thing, that you go to Haiti and someone hands you baby, you take your real thing. Yeah. But the the reality of what that opens for him, and he literally came home off the plane, called the adoption agency and booked our very own international adoption course. Because we couldn't wait for the next one. Like it was   Evan  56:34 they were like, well, it's gonna be two months from now. I was like, yeah, no, nope,   Christin  56:38 no, we're doing this. Yeah.   Evan  56:41 I have, I have a bit of woo in me. So I actually met she's still with the lady would still tell it this way. When we get introduced when we come back and talk about adoption. She was like, okay, so this guy, like, five years ago, phones, me? And tells me, no, that's gonna be too long. It needs to be like Saturday. No. Anyways, it was it was enough for me to just realize, I think to be honest with you, I just pointed out the selfishness of one of my family all look alike, and then realizing that that there are children all over the world, who, who need safe places to grow and be nourished and cared for and all of those kinds of things. And so it was a heartbreaking experience.   Christin  57:33 It's, but yeah, we thought we would adopt from Haiti, it just made sense. It's a place seven goes regularly. So you know, you want to for international adoption. connection to country of origin is really important. And so it made total sense. Haiti is not a for sure thing. Yeah, at the time, and it still isn't like, if you have if you have an adoption in Haiti right now. Godspeed. It's just not, you know, nothing is for sure. So I called the adoption agency. What's her name? Deborah, Deborah. And I was like, I need a sure thing. What do you got? Like, what are the countries that are sure things? Yeah. And her heart was for Ethiopia. And she sold it to me. So we you can have a healthy baby, you can have a pretty baby. Sounds terrible. I know. You can. And it's a sure thing, we know that we can do this for you. And I was like, sold take my money. And so that was the and this that's just raw from me at the time. So I want to control things. And this is where I think a lot of parents go, Well, I just want a healthy baby. But when that's outside of your body, it's anyway, I'm just this a confession. Now, I would think a lot more globally about the conversation. But at the time, it was like it was petty, but um, we started the adoption process went through that got matched with our daughter, Caroline. And within the month found out we are pregnant. And oh, with her daughter, Erica. I called the adoption. I've called Deborah.   Evan  59:26 Oh, you're gonna throw her under the bus. Okay.   Christin  59:30 The right thing. I told her that, you know, we're pregnant because you're not actually allowed to adopt and you're only allowed to bring one child in your home per calendar year. Okay, so with with under the Alberta regulations. So I told her that I was pregnant and she said, we did not have this conversation. A girl and she hung up on me. Wow, that year was wild. So we have I ended up having Erica, we have a five month old APR. And

five months later, it's time for us to go to Ethiopia and get Caroline, who has 1516 months.   Evan  1:00:13 Oh my gosh, almost exactly a year apart, age wise.   Christin  1:00:17 So I was still nursing Eric at the time, I mean, five months old. So I, we decided that Evan and our brother in law, Josh would go and get Caroline. So they did that had a amazing,   Evan  1:00:31 we got t shirts like, I'm with him, but not with him. T shirt. No, not a good thing in Ethiopia. So it was terrifying. We definitely grew closer together. Yeah. But but there was as counselors, I'm sure, you know, there's there's lots of challenges around attachment and different things like that when you adopt a child, whether it's a local adoption, or whether it's an international adoption, and one of our concerns was that if I took one of my sisters with me, which would have been quite a natural thing to do, that, that they wouldn't be able to help but to care for care for this kid. And, and so in a way, logically, this was a very logical thing we did, right was like, no, if they're not there, then I'll have to be a dad enough to take care of this kid. And I'm scared to death of toddlers. It's like not to say the least. This is the age group that I feel least equipped to deal. I would take I would take a roomful of junior highers over I was a youth pastor for a long time, over that age. And here we were, you know, we got on a plane and we went to Ethiopia and, and picked up Caroline and, and it was such an incredible journey for us, and started a hard time in our life to for you, especially   Christin  1:01:53 one of the things that, that that triggered for me. So then I had to quit my job that I loved. And do what I thought was my dream, which was parent. Yeah. Lots and lots of children. And but what I didn't realize at the time, is that that loss had to be respected. That makes sense. I didn't grieve it. I didn't grieve it. And so anxiety and depression just, you know, consumed everything. And resentment, and I was ugly. I did get help. And I did get mad medicine at the time, which helped and was super, super good. Yes. I'm so thankful that that is available to   Evan  1:02:47 people. Drugs are good. Drugs are good. Yeah. Oh,   Jenna Fortinski  1:02:51 yes, they are.   Christin  1:02:51 Yes. For me, it ended up being a temporary thing, because not feeling things. As much as I love that is not so good for everybody around me. So it's way better for me to process those things in real life. Yeah, man, those were good. Yeah. Um, anyway, I so I went through that really hard time. And I would say it probably took until my girls were in school before I felt like myself, like I was starting to get myself back. I did really big things. During that time I started to preschool. I did all kinds of crazy things. But in that time, it was just really intense. So then, also, during that time, I read a book. This is too bad for you that I did that. But I read a book.   Evan  1:03:40 I thought we were all done. All done. Full on depression. Like you're done. Yeah.   Christin  1:03:50 And sometimes I think because our our youngest would now be graduating from high school and we would be empty nesters. Sometimes I wonder what that would be like. But I read a book called, there's no me without you by Melissa Faye Greene. She is an author out of the states. And she has internationally adopted Ethiopian children as well. And which is why the connection, she gave some of the backstory about why Ethiopia needed us needed people to adopt their children why they were open to international adoption. And I was like, oh, no, we have to do this again. And I need to do it again. Aware of myself, and I need to win this whole parenting healthy thing. And so we entered into the adoption. No, no, you   Evan  1:04:45 have to tell her. So this is what she does. This is how she tries to get me on board. And I'm literally about to get on an airplane and fly back to Haiti. And she's like, Hey, I brought you A book to read on the plane. I remember looking at her, like, what are you? What are you doing? What you're doing? I don't know what's happening here. I'm literally on a couch down in Haiti, during like the hottest day of the, like the hardest part of the day reading this book. And I'm like, oh, man, often again,   Christin  1:05:27 it's happening. Yeah, so I bought 10 copies of that book and gave them out to anybody who had hear me, I listened to me. And, and it worked like a charm for a lot of people. So because we were actually living adoption out loud, people could follow our example. And we could say, here's who you call, you know, steps like that. But this impetus to connect with other cultures and other places. And the story that really connects in that book is that there was a woman, an Ethiopian woman whose husband died, and she just lost her reason for living. And so everyday, she would go to church and tell the priest by I'm taking my own life, I'm done. And every day, he would say, Well, do you think you could just wait till tomorrow? Because there's this, there's this kid? Who needs you? Could you just take this one home tonight? Come back tomorrow, give him back. And then you can, you can do it. And he just kept doing that over and over until she had this collection of children who needed her, and that she needed. And she ended up forming this agency agency, basically, that Melissa Faye Greene's children ended up coming from. And so there was this like story of people in Ethiopia who are so proud and love their children so much, that when they can't have them anymore, or they're sick, they put them in a place where they'll be found this is their social system, like a cemetery where grieving people will go, or a soccer pitch other police station, that kind of thing that you know that people would find them. And that's how kids get into the system of orphanages and needing care and things like that. I told you that story, and now you

have to adopt I'm sorry.   Evan  1:07:44 No, I think I think this might be a good time to give you the scope of kind of how contagious it can be. Yeah, yes. So. So my brother in law who traveled with us on that trip? Yeah, they came home and they started the process of adoption, they have a little guy from Ethiopia. So we have a nephew, that's from Ethiopia. And ironically, it timed out almost perfectly. And our son, our 12 year old son, Otto, and our nephew, Zack were in the same foster home together. So when we went to meet Otto for the first time, and they went to meet Zach, when we got to meet each other's sons, so they have this journey together, the two of them, which is kind of a cool thing to to see. I have another sister who's adopted two kids as well. Our best friends who lives down the road from us have adopted as well. Actually, I have our other friends very, very best friends, including Tara and Ryan, who are on the unpacking tears on the unpacked podcast with us have also adopted in this last year. So I think that I think that what what we're getting at is that it's like, sometimes we think that things are not doable, it just seems so hard. And it's important that we see others do that and then walk with each other through those things. And so for us, the community of adoptive families is is an important community. Because we have not just adopted kids in common but but we also understand language around attachment and different things like that. And we can support each other well, in that   Christin  1:09:29 way. I would also say in the beginning, our story where this is for me was from needing to control my family grow, like adding to our family. And choosing to be kind of a white savior and find a kid in a third world country that needed a family and   Nicki Kirlin  1:09:54 be the hero like be   Christin  1:09:55 the savior. And like I'll confess that because That's the gross side of it. The outcome is good. This these are actually children who needed homes and families. So I, you know, it doesn't negate that. But I, I just don't want to say that we are somehow awesome or amazing in any of that, because it was actually very self serving in the, in the time that we've parented these children, though, and be been made aware of that to ourselves. They're still ours, I can't give them back they have, they're my responsibility. I've had to come to a reckoning of that. So who are who are they? Are they mine? For time, if they choose to go back to Ethiopia, and to live their adult lives there and, and connect with any family, they can find? We don't have   Evan  1:10:59 any. We unfortunately, they didn't get   Christin  1:11:02 they don't have family connection in their stories. So we would have to hire to do that. We will do that. Yeah, they don't have to live with us forever. They don't have to be honest, I wouldn't say I would say that journey   Nicki Kirlin  1:11:17 was terribly hard.   Christin  1:11:21 And a couple of years ago, we're sitting on the couch, and I'm looking at Facebook, and I see a post about family looking for their adopted child in Canada. Can you feel from Ethiopia from where Caroline was found? Around the same time, the same agency we used, and it all of a sudden became really real. So our minds went, Oh, gosh, now we have to deal with this. We could before just kind of be these heroes that saved these children. And ignore the truth of that, but all of a sudden, that wasn't real anymore, because we had to call the agency and, and pursue that to find out if that was true. Like if it was like, Annie, you know, and we had to like,   Evan  1:12:12 I was, I was afraid I there was a lot of fear at that time. And it was more like, it was everything from like, the insecurities that you have as a parent. To what if they get hurt? Like what if, you know, as a dad? Because these kids are not? This is these are our children? Yes. Right. Yeah. And, like no less our children than our than our biological kids. And so it was just like, I Kristen was able to kind of go calm and say the thing that needed to be said, I actually was more like, No, we could just not tell them. Like, we could just not do this, because this might hurt, you know, me, my hurt knee might hurt them might hurt everybody. And I was I was very fearful. But it is kind of one of those realities, you know, that actually, maybe every parent should embrace that actually, your children are meant to leave you someday. That's actually how it's supposed to work. And that they are your responsibility to love and care and raise right now. But there they are, to go on and be their own people. And I think that that can be one of the challenges that we don't often see, you know, we find ourselves trying to force our kids to be awesome. And   Christin  1:13:45 I also think that as parents unaware, or like the amount of times you could, if I had a penny for every time I've heard someone, I just want my kid to be happy. rich, rich, you know, when it's it's a thing. And but actually, for our kids, they have to process through their trauma for our adopted kids that is real, like we can point to that and we can see that they actually have a moment of disconnection and a moment of reconnection, you know, those kind of things that that they can go to that they will need to process through. We keep trying, we keep pushing them to do it.   Evan  1:14:26 Can you imagine you're 16 months old and two white guys show up? To take you like it was so funny. We when we bought adopted Caroline. We were like, Wow, she's so quiet. She's really quiet. You know, and and we bring her home. She was pretty quiet for a little while too. But but she is no quiet. It just is not acquired. And oh, it was only $1 You know, I look back and I go she was being shy. She was scared. Yeah, yeah. There wasn't anything I could have done differently to make it less scary. It was like, I'm awake guy, yeah, we have   Christin  1:15:06 stories we've

contributed to their trauma, like this kind of thing. For our biological children, they those things are hidden, right, they'll have to figure those out a little bit more. And we're trying to be the type of parents. It's hard, but we're trying to be the type of parents that are telling the truth about that. And I think our, our biological children will have a gift and seeing in real time, our adopted children process through that, right now have to have to deal with that. I don't know, trying to find the good in all of it, but we're blessed.   Jenna Fortinski  1:15:44 Yeah, and I think like, one of the things that stands out to me, there's lots but one of the things I wanted to jump on is this idea that has become very pervasive in our westernized culture, I guess, I should say, and parenting in North America and talking with parents, you know, on a professional level, this parenting out of fear, right? Parenting out of, oh, I can't have you know, my sweet little dolly herd, I can't have my sweet little dolly, you know, go through this, I can have my little Johnny do this. And, and, you know, like, always trying to protect and protect and protect and protect, and, and how much, you know, damage and chaos for creating by doing that, right. And so I love that you guys are encouraging, you know, encouraging this, you know, like, let's talk about the hard stuff, let's talk about what's real, let's talk about, you know, what's happening. Because as we all know, like, avoidance and anxiety are best friends, right? When we're avoiding the anxiety is just, you know, skyrocketing. So the more we can talk about it, the actually, the better we're doing for our children, and the more you know, the more they get used to feeling those harder things, the better it is for them, right. And I have, but that's such a hard concept for us in Western culture, that, you know, like, we don't really have a lot of super hard things that we can experience compared to other places in the world, just different version of it. But for us to really grasp onto that as parents and to say, you know, what, okay, I need to, you know, help my child through this, I need to support them through this, I need my child to experience these harder things, these stories of what's happening, you know, late, that's coming out in, in, throughout this pandemic, like we talked about earlier. Or, you know, like, just things don't happen in our children's lives and, you know, really encouraging them to, to experience that little bit of pain or that little bit of hurt and what a what a, what a favor we're doing for our children right in life by allowing them to, to experience that and to not parent out of fear and protection, right. So I love that you guys talked about that.   Christin  1:17:55 Way back to this, this connects it to my personal spiritual journey. I read I think it was a blue parakeet tell me if I'm wrong, edit it out if I'm wrong, but that this analogy that you your spiritual life, and I would say it's the same and parenting is made up of bricks, things that you believe you want everything to be very Yes, defined, and solid and well built and all of that kind of stuff until something comes in like a sickness or pandemic or something like that, that starts to knock at your bricks. And things fall down or like your child's emotions or anger or something like that, that, that makes this not a not a, a good like house or home for what you're dealing with. Same with your spiritual life. If your everything is so rigid, it has to be this way and has to look like this and you have to talk like this. Then when something comes along that like the pandemic that shakes that, if the wall crumbles, the whole thing comes down. But what we want to do as parents, and what I want to do as a spiritual person or a believer, is I want it to be more like a trampoline. So everything that comes at us is received, and maybe shot back, received and has room to be if my, if my kids choose a path in life, that is not what I would choose for them. I would rather have them. I'd rather receive them in a trampoline kind of shape than in this brick wall that might tear the fabric of my existence apart. And so we have, like, I think we read that book and   Evan  1:19:43 the book is actually called velvet Elvis and Raphael and the he one of the other metaphors you just use is like a house of cards. Yeah. And if you can't, if you can't pull a card out, yeah, look at it and examine it with some sense of like, truth and authenticity and ask Asking good questions of it without the whole thing crumbling? Yeah. What kind of faith do we have? Or what kind of aluminum? And it's, it's, it's a great example though, of of parenting, right? If we can't let our kids pull out a card, if, if our parenting is a house of cards, and our kids never get to actually look at all of the cards with truth and authenticity, it doesn't give them the chance to grow into adults that that can handle the the big questions that come with life. Like that's just life. We know. Like, it's a funny thing, because I think every adult would know that at some point, their kids are going to experience pain and suffering and heartbreak and all of those things. I feel area failure, all that. So why wouldn't we want them to learn to experience that in our presence? Yeah, I want them where we can? Yes, yeah, give them a safe place to lay all that stuff. By pushing that back, you push it back into a time when they may not have the support that they need. That's right. And that's actually more scary to me then than having my kids be disciplined or not get the metal or not get on a team. You know, when they do their trial and all of those kinds of things. Yeah, anyway. Yeah.   Christin  1:21:18 So we're amazing. It's   Evan  1:21:19 pretty much awesome. Yeah, that's   Nicki Kirlin  1:21:21 it all figured out.   Evan  1:21:26 Oh, so many things to learn about about it. And figure out how to, like, the

reality is we are fixtures in our kids stories, and in each other's stories. And we're both positively and effect and negatively affecting those stories. It's like,   Christin  1:21:46 No, one of our kids is doing EMDR right now. Oh, and I'm like, I don't even want to know, I just not even be a part of that. I know. Because all the things that are gonna come out about me, I want you to be able to process.   Evan  1:22:03 I've told her like three times. Okay, I'm not gonna ask you what stories you told today. Yeah. It's wait. I waiting for you to voluntarily tell me what stories you talked about. looks at us. Like, I'm not telling you that. I counsellors said That's between me and her. Like, oh, yeah, confidentiality. Yeah, anyways, right? I, we're fortunate we have somebody really awesome that I trust, right. And it actually doesn't really cross my mind that this person isn't holding my child's story. Well, like she is. And I love that. So no,   Jenna Fortinski  1:22:47 and I think that's something that I say to my clients all the time for parents is that no matter what you do, it's your fault anyway, so just do what you got to do. Give it a try. And if it doesn't work, then try something different. Right? You know, and, like we said, at the beginning is, you know, you just want to be true to yourself and try to, you know, choose to parent in a way that aligns with your values and things should work themselves out. Right? Like, really, truly,   Nicki Kirlin  1:23:12 I know, like you said, In the beginning, Evan about being human beings. Yes. Right. Like that is another sort of way to pull that in of we are human at the end of the day. And this is a human experience. Yeah. And we're all you know, as long as our as long as our intentions are in the right place. He can't go wrong. Yeah, you know,   Evan  1:23:32 we, we, when you adopt rate, you have to go through all these classes, right? They ask you how you're going to parent when things come. And this was a hard one for us. Because we were like, well, that will depend on their age on older, we're actually talking about all those things. And it's like, and I remember saying to them, we will do our best to answer our kids authentically. And truthfully, and age in an age appropriate manner. Yeah. Yeah. And as our kids have gotten a little bit older, there's been a few moments when we've been like, actually authentically telling you is to say, I'm worried about this. Like, do you know your parents actually stressed about things too? And it's like, because just saying this is what we're doing without actually talking about how we feel about it doesn't feel authentic either. Yeah. So I don't know. We got to figure out how to do that in healthy ways. But yeah, I think it's important. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. I told you, we were gonna go all over the place on you know, trying to keep us in the   Nicki Kirlin  1:24:38 eye. You know, I'm so so appreciative of your, you know, your openness and your vulnerability

and and, you know, the lessons that you both have collected in your journeys are like they're huge, right. And so I think that you're both a source of wisdom and and, yeah, there's lots to be learned from your experiences. And I hope that our listeners can take that away from this conversation. I do want to ask one final question before we wrap up. And I'll ask it so that you and I want you both to give me your thoughts, but kind of just reflecting on what we've talked about, you know, this the importance of having, you know, of having your community and having the, you know, filling your table, and the role that spirituality plays in that. And considering, you know, the complexity of mental health and all of those pieces, what, you know, reflecting back on your journeys, what do you hope you can share as a message to anybody in thinking about, you know, some of the things that you've learned, whether it's, you know, the strategies, or tools or tips that you've, that you've always carried with you to help you through those difficult times or anything, just what are your like, if you if you could kind of pull it all together into one. One thought, what would that be? That is   Christin  1:26:03 not a fair question.   Nicki Kirlin  1:26:05 I know, it's really hard, right? I'm sure. I'm expecting something very brilliant, was the one thing that will save your life, I   Jenna Fortinski  1:26:16 will just wait to silence, right,   Nicki Kirlin  1:26:19 and you got 10 seconds.   Evan  1:26:22 To go first, I'm trying to think I'm trying to, you're trying to think out. See, it's just simply, so I'll do my best to add spirituality and community into this. I believe that I was created out of the community of God. I was created to be myself with all of the things good and bad, the messy parts to fully so that I could both contribute to the community of people and also be the benefactor of a healthy community. I think that's how God works out his healing work. In Me, and in my life, my family's life, or friend's life and our church's life to   Christin  1:27:24 that was your passive voice just now. And what I really want to do right now is say, like fart noise.   Evan  1:27:31 I was trying to be very clear, you did a really good mate made by community for community, how's that?   Jenna Fortinski  1:27:37 We love it. Beautiful. Love it. Beautiful, I love it.   Christin  1:27:42 I think that ultimately, every human wants to be known. And we find that connection in our faith community and in our families. But keeping your chin up and your eyes open to how you can see other people. It's friggin hard right now. Because our what we're yelling out into the ether is actually self preservation. We it's really hard to see each other right now. And that's what I'm trying to do. So in my interactions with people I'm trying to be aware of who are you really like, who can I see inside of that, to find that connection and compassion with people that allows me to love them and not dismiss them. And the reason why that is so important right now is because it's it feels impossible. So, um, I feel like, this is my spiritual connection to everything. I see God and Jesus in the tension. When there's tension between two things, and they both feel real, that is where the work is happening in the spiritual realm of things. And that's what I think we actually need to pay attention to. So I'm trying to do that in my own personal relationships, I am failing, because those are the hard things to do. And we're each pulling away from each other right now. And I'm doing it too as a matter of just this like, it's like ego level like It's like your guru level. That's speaking right now. I'm looking forward to that not being the case. I think it's going to be a while though. I think it's going to be well, I think we're going to need to especially living in Alberta, we live in a place that that are the structures in place our governments and things like that are creating more tension than releasing tension right now. So keeping our heads in the game and being kind to each other. Remember two years ago you could have a T shirt was like be kind to me kind of choices. No, that's not real.   Evan  1:30:00 dose seizures 10 months ago   Christin  1:30:04 we're trying to not kill each other. Yeah.   Evan  1:30:08 That should be the next one. Should it be kind? It's like don't murder. No murdering   Christin  1:30:15 this escalate.   Jenna Fortinski  1:30:19 True. So true. Oh my goodness.     Nicki Kirlin  1:36:18 So thank you so much to both of you for joining us for this conversation. And as I mentioned before, for, you know, for being open and honest and vulnerable with your story, and for sharing a good message, and it's, it's, it's such a wonderful message of hope. Yeah. And I think that's what we all need right now. More than anything, so. So thank you.   Jenna Fortinski  1:36:40 Thank you.   Evan  1:36:42 Hey, thanks. Thanks so much for your time. And yeah, it was it was a pleasure to share part of our story with you. It was fun. It was   Jenna Fortinski  1:36:49 Thank you