บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ 494 SelfWork: Masterclass: Befriending Your Inner Critic with Dr. Tara Cousineau

subscribe. 04:27.004 --> 04:36.835 [SPEAKER_01]: That's drinkag1.com slash self work, drinkag1.com slash self work. 04:53.217 --> 04:56.523 [SPEAKER_01]: As I said, Tara, I really appreciate your preciousness. 04:56.604 --> 04:59.148 [SPEAKER_01]: You, I have mischeduled this. 04:59.209 --> 05:01.132 [SPEAKER_01]: What, three times now, I think. 05:04.058 --> 05:05.641 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so very much. 05:06.282 --> 05:08.146 [SPEAKER_01]: Tell self-worth listeners a little bit about you. 05:08.186 --> 05:11.412 [SPEAKER_01]: I've read about you, but what are the things you want people to know? 05:11.982 --> 05:12.723 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay. 05:12.743 --> 05:18.931 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, first, professionally, I'm a clinical psychologist and I'm a mom, a yogi. 05:18.951 --> 05:23.517 [SPEAKER_00]: I dabble in sort of spiritual, somatic work. 05:23.577 --> 05:25.400 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's a lot of different things that I like to do. 05:25.420 --> 05:30.266 [SPEAKER_00]: I love to have conversations and I really actually love my work. 05:31.087 --> 05:33.130 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we connected over. 05:33.110 --> 05:43.347 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how I learned about you, because I sure learned about you earlier around the topic of perfectionism, which is sort of one of the main areas I work part-time at Harvard University. 05:43.367 --> 05:45.651 [SPEAKER_00]: So, the life perfectionist there, I mean. 05:45.691 --> 05:49.718 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, there are a lot of perfectionists there, you know, whether you're staff or a student. 05:49.958 --> 05:52.462 [SPEAKER_00]: She can't say that. 05:52.482 --> 05:55.127 [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's a, you rock-green glasses, by the way. 05:55.147 --> 05:57.210 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you. 05:59.148 --> 06:00.910 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was your work there. 06:01.030 --> 06:05.514 [SPEAKER_01]: What got you so interested in perfectionism or was it something else? 06:05.534 --> 06:06.075 [SPEAKER_01]: Or yourself. 06:06.135 --> 06:09.819 [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned that some of this book was about writing it for you. 06:10.319 --> 06:11.240 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 06:11.280 --> 06:17.787 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I feel like most of the reasons that people go into certain professions has something to do with them personally, right? 06:18.368 --> 06:22.332 [SPEAKER_00]: But as I mentioned off the top before you had recorded, my mother is German. 06:22.952 --> 06:27.737 [SPEAKER_00]: She's 88 now and I grew up in a very perfectionist. 06:27.717 --> 06:29.299 [SPEAKER_00]: oriented household. 06:30.620 --> 06:33.244 [SPEAKER_00]: Where things had to be very neat and organized. 06:33.644 --> 06:38.309 [SPEAKER_00]: There were rules, you know, constantly felt like I was walking an actual. 06:38.370 --> 06:39.931 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's that backstory there. 06:40.852 --> 06:40.953 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure. 06:40.973 --> 06:54.889 [SPEAKER_00]: But the reason I fell into writing more about perfectionism

is I started running workshops actually for students at the university and doing some online workshops really bringing in 06:55.240 --> 06:59.277 [SPEAKER_00]: meditation and mindful self-compassion approaches and 07:00.252 --> 07:14.266 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's do a start saying, this is written down somewhere, and so that's really kind of how it happened that I wrote a book about it, as I was really kind of really transforming what I was finding that was working with younger people, at least emerging adults. 07:14.567 --> 07:27.880 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I used my methods also across the legspan, but I was just kind of really in the soup of high achievers, and that's sort of what got me interested to really kind of hone in on it, and I felt like, yeah, I get it. 07:28.366 --> 07:30.650 [SPEAKER_00]: I know, I've been where you are. 07:30.670 --> 07:37.301 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you know, when I was writing my perfectly hidden depression, people say, you know, I have you dealt with depression. 07:37.321 --> 07:40.487 [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, no, my, my Bailey Wick has always been anxiety. 07:40.627 --> 07:42.851 [SPEAKER_01]: I've, I have panic disorder in that kind of thing. 07:43.752 --> 07:46.798 [SPEAKER_01]: But perfectionism and I are quite good friends. 07:47.779 --> 07:50.704 [SPEAKER_01]: Or, or, or, or, friend of me, I guess. 07:50.724 --> 07:52.247 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. 07:52.447 --> 08:01.143 [SPEAKER_01]: I love the way you work with words and one of the things you talked about at the very beginning the book was a term you called kind of fullness. 08:02.826 --> 08:09.539 [SPEAKER_01]: I loved and kind of sight again, play out words, but really lovely. 08:09.619 --> 08:12.885 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you talk a little bit about how 08:12.865 --> 08:24.835 [SPEAKER_01]: how those that really strive for excellence or didn't take it a step further and have to be excellent all the time, how this concept of kindness could be useful to them. 08:24.855 --> 08:28.098 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, well, you know, interesting, something interesting that you picked up on that. 08:28.298 --> 08:29.139 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate it. 08:29.159 --> 08:31.401 [SPEAKER_00]: I wrote a book a number of years ago. 08:31.441 --> 08:36.766 [SPEAKER_00]: My first book called The Kindness Curre, how the science of compassion can heal your heart and your world. 08:37.226 --> 08:41.590 [SPEAKER_00]: And I really just try to 08:41.570 --> 08:46.817 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, kind offulness, I didn't make up that word. 08:46.837 --> 09:02.920 [SPEAKER_00]: I think other people used that, but it became a concept that I thought was really helpful as a mindfulness teacher is, you know, we're teaching people how to get into the relaxation response or empty their mind, which of course is never possible. 09:02.900 --> 09:18.519 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, have a different relationship with their mind, but the idea of doing that with a caring kind of awareness, like being aware of the present moment with a sense of heartfulness, has been really just true to all of my work. 09:19.381 --> 09:26.950 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's a practice, just I mean self-compassion is a practice, self-acceptancies are all practices and 09:26.930 --> 09:49.444 [SPEAKER_00]: So, kind of this is just my way of reminding people that it's not just about focus and detaching yourself from your thoughts or having different relationship with your thoughts, it's not just about cognition, it's actually also about really holding yourself in really, you know, an embrace and sound woo for some people, but I find it critical. 09:51.247 --> 10:04.888 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and let me see over here, there's something you, oh, oh, it's a term, you said you replaced self-compassion, which is maybe a little woo for a lot of people with befriending yourself. 10:05.890 --> 10:14.503 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was another kind of, not to play a word, certainly heard that word before, 10:14.483 --> 10:28.554 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, really trying to find words and ways of talking to yourself get inner voice or plus one, as you call it, that you can, those words will mean something to you. 10:28.574 --> 10:29.997 [SPEAKER_01]: You can really use your word. 10:30.017 --> 10:33.184 [SPEAKER_01]: You just said, embrace those words, so. 10:33.232 --> 10:48.409 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like befriending as a word because I think most people can relate to the idea of befriending someone else, to being a friend to somebody else, if they actually spoke out loud, what's in their mind, would they actually say it out loud? 10:48.469 --> 11:01.804 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we hear these kind of metaphors and stories all the time and so befriending kind of brings it back home and actually it's interesting because I had started running workshops called overcomperfections 11:01.784 --> 11:24.096 [SPEAKER_00]: and so many graduate students, we're showing up with the college, it was the graduate students, and I realized that I actually needed to kind of create an offshoot of the overcome perfectionism and I specifically called it refriending the inner credit, and I do it every summer for six weeks for the graduate students, we're still around and on campus. 11:24.076 --> 11:38.558 [SPEAKER_00]: excuse me, because they're at a point of applying for these high-powered jobs, right, in insulting firms, or getting their PhD, and everything it feels like a cliffhanger to them. 11:38.578 --> 11:39.379 [SPEAKER_00]: It really does. 11:39.399 --> 11:46.750 [SPEAKER_00]: And remember, no, I remember two, I mean, that was hard here for me when I think about those years. 11:47.090 --> 11:48.953 [SPEAKER_00]: So degree in persistence is what it is. 11:48.933 --> 12:03.875 [SPEAKER_00]: It really requires some grit, but I think what happens often is that if grit is defined as passion and perseverance towards a goal, people lose their passion and because they burn out. 12:04.096 --> 12:09.043 [SPEAKER_00]: So this

idea of befriending is really just coming back to the self and what do you need right now? 12:09.083 --> 12:17.235 [SPEAKER_00]: Not what the output is and the outcome and that takes a while, it really does, takes a while. 12:17.215 --> 12:22.201 [SPEAKER_01]: What do people do with the students that take your course or your seminar? 12:22.221 --> 12:22.881 [SPEAKER_01]: What do we want to call it? 12:23.562 --> 12:25.484 [SPEAKER_01]: How do they tell you it's changed them? 12:26.425 --> 12:30.029 [SPEAKER_00]: They will come back and say, I've never heard of this. 12:30.069 --> 12:33.093 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know what self-compassion was or it wasn't for me. 12:33.113 --> 12:37.798 [SPEAKER_00]: I never thought of my inner critic as trying to help me. 12:38.759 --> 12:41.502 [SPEAKER_00]: You know that it's serving some service. 12:41.482 --> 12:42.604 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, right? 12:42.624 --> 13:07.523 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really, and so one of my things that I, I don't know, I just feel like this is my charge, right, in the world is to help people understand that what they can easily identify as an inner critic or inner critics or to be a whole cacophony of inner critics in there is that you're not trying to banish them or fix them or get rid of them, which is what a lot of the psychological literature says is like you got to know. 13:07.503 --> 13:08.764 [SPEAKER_00]: Places thought with another thought. 13:08.784 --> 13:09.545 [SPEAKER_00]: You got to get rid of this. 13:09.625 --> 13:21.800 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, easier said than done, but to understand that that narrative arose as an adaptation to some challenge or struggle in your life and it made sense at the time. 13:21.880 --> 13:22.000 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 13:22.300 --> 13:22.460 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 13:22.781 --> 13:23.001 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 13:23.802 --> 13:30.470 [SPEAKER_01]: And you and I so agree on this, because that's about I make that point several times about it started out as a blessing. 13:30.530 --> 13:34.354 [SPEAKER_01]: It's 13:34.874 --> 13:35.435 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 13:35.455 --> 13:42.146 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that is what when people have that insight in their own lived experience. 13:42.667 --> 13:42.807 [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm. 13:42.827 --> 13:59.194 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the nice thing about, of course, you know, groups, prior practice is great, but when people start talking about this and they realize, oh, I'm not the only one that has this, but they start to help each other and and it can get kind of fun, like, you know, naming your inner critic, you know, you know, that. 13:59.174 --> 14:17.432 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, coach Hawks or we know what I heard it is, you know, and and then you can start to I think it's so much again going back to the word befriending or kindfulness it's you can start to see like, oh, that harsh inner critic was just really trying to encourage me or trying to protect me from getting punished in some way. 14:17.913 --> 14:19.917 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this makes total sense, but 14:19.897 --> 14:22.261 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't need this anymore, right? 14:22.362 --> 14:37.430 [SPEAKER_00]: And then it's the sort of, okay, well, how can we transform maybe the gifts that underlie, you know, that critic or that coping strategy to its, it's true, it's true essence, which might be courage, right? 14:37.550 --> 14:38.091 [SPEAKER_00]: Or, 14:38.645 --> 15:00.324 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I, I don't want to, what does that, I've never quite understood this phrase, but you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, it seems like sort of a strange thing, but I do think that, you know, that critic, that voice of remember this hurt or remember this didn't work or, you know, or you shouldn't try that again. 15:00.384 --> 15:07.791 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, 15:07.771 --> 15:12.096 [SPEAKER_01]: to discern what is working now for you and what is not. 15:12.776 --> 15:13.037 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 15:13.297 --> 15:13.497 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 15:13.517 --> 15:14.018 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 15:14.058 --> 15:14.398 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 15:14.438 --> 15:21.345 [SPEAKER_00]: It's having that clarity and that understanding and I come back to the other word that you mentioned at the beginning, kind sight. 15:21.846 --> 15:26.150 [SPEAKER_00]: I love the word kind sight and actually it was a yoga teacher that used it in a class. 15:26.451 --> 15:30.775 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, she just happened to mention it and it was like four years later I found her again. 15:30.795 --> 15:36.141 [SPEAKER_00]: I said, what did you get that word kind 15:36.121 --> 15:37.983 [SPEAKER_00]: I think a teacher might have said it at one point. 15:38.003 --> 15:39.665 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, okay, there's an oral history here. 15:39.705 --> 15:55.903 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know where it came from, but I ended up defining it as, you know, viewing your life with tenderness and understanding, and so many people carry these burdens forward that were innocent or that weren't their fault. 15:56.224 --> 16:01.690 [SPEAKER_00]: And so really cultivating kind sight is a way to 16:02.632 --> 16:19.097 [SPEAKER_00]: regret or resentment or shame that people still bring forward into their day-to-day life that they don't want, but if they can see it with some kind sight, it starts to again change that inner language, that inner relationship with yourself. 16:20.679 --> 16:26.428 [SPEAKER_01]: That's beautifully said, so let's take a break and we'll be back in just a moment. 16:28.450 --> 16:35.178 [SPEAKER_01]: I read your definition of perfectionism, and I'm going to read it here if I read my handwriting. 16:35.198 --> 16:56.263 [SPEAKER_01]: Perfectionism, this was a lot to wrap around for me, perfectionism is the paradox created by the need for belonging and fear of rejection paired with unrealistic expectations for achievement and approval that saps your energy and life force. 16:57.610 --> 17:05.123 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you and I

agree on perfectionism and a lot of the characteristics of perfectionism. 17:05.183 --> 17:15.281 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think one of the things that I like to highlight is really the energetic nature of perfectionism. 17:15.361 --> 17:18.066 [SPEAKER_00]: It really is an energetic drain. 17:18.046 --> 17:47.547 [SPEAKER_00]: it's very hard to sustain over time and so sometimes like I get this question all the time like well I need my perfectionism I wouldn't have gotten this friend right exactly what I'm gotten this far like who would I be without my perfectionism and I usually just do this little litmus test which is okay when you're thinking about this current experience that you're sharing 17:47.527 --> 18:04.455 [SPEAKER_00]: fear, stress, or is it associated with more mug, joy, aspiration, right, you know, just the quality of feeling that is associated with these perfectionistic behaviors. 18:04.875 --> 18:12.167 [SPEAKER_00]: And then they, oh, yeah, okay, no, I'm really tense and I'm really unhappy and I hate my life and I don't know why I chose this path and maybe I shouldn't have done. 18:12.147 --> 18:14.592 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's for going to a regime store. 18:15.113 --> 18:21.486 [SPEAKER_00]: And so in the book, you know, again, sometimes I just feel like I'm a little bit, you know, to woo for some people. 18:21.566 --> 18:25.735 [SPEAKER_00]: But I really try to bring people back to energetically 18:26.440 --> 18:47.419 [SPEAKER_00]: where they're at, to noticing where the energy is in their nervous system because we get hooked, we get stuck in these patterns and it's not just a limiting belief, it's not just a cognitive pattern, it's a full-on mind-body pattern and we adapt to it, we get used to it, we get addicted to it. 18:47.399 --> 18:53.908 [SPEAKER_01]: That's an aspect of your book, and by the way, the book's name is the perfectionist dilemma. 18:54.829 --> 18:55.931 [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, I don't know the subtitle. 18:56.411 --> 18:59.676 [SPEAKER_01]: Learning of art of self compassion and become a happy achiever. 18:59.696 --> 19:01.058 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which makes your point, right? 19:02.680 --> 19:05.864 [SPEAKER_01]: But the whole body aspect of things. 19:06.305 --> 19:15.718 [SPEAKER_01]: You talk about EFT and tapping and aspects of the physical 19:15.698 --> 19:19.735 [SPEAKER_01]: which, you know, that that was a real eye opener for me. 19:20.153 --> 19:43.004 [SPEAKER_00]: why it came around to it and whether it's with young people in their 20s and their 30s or, you know, people who have professional lives is often what brings them into therapy is not the mental health aspect is the IBS is the chronic migraines, it's some sort of illness or ailment, chronic fatigue, chronic insomnia, nightmares. 19:43.024 --> 19:50.093 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, these are all somatic, you know, manifestations of anxiety or depression. 19:50.073 --> 19:57.562 [SPEAKER_00]: And, and perfectionist in particular will just keep going, going, going, going until their bodies break down. 19:57.942 --> 20:03.789 [SPEAKER_00]: So whether it's a panic attack, I also had, in my 30s, so I totally relate to your story, you've had a few. 20:03.809 --> 20:05.390 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, time. 20:05.410 --> 20:05.991 [SPEAKER_00]: Great, aren't they? 20:06.552 --> 20:12.098 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, but that's a physical manifestation also, but often, 20:12.078 --> 20:37.461 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, even even it could be minor things, um, I had somebody come into my office and she was, she was, she was late because she had to go to the physical therapist because she had literally tripped down the stairs at the bagel shop and caught her arm, you know, in the railing and she, she was really just not even aware of her surroundings, but in her picture, you know, she had a whole backstory and I was like, 20:37.441 --> 20:44.886 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh, this is so interesting, you know, it's like, that was what made her realize. 20:46.874 --> 20:53.200 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing, I'm like in complete overload, you know, like, I don't like my body's not even connected anymore. 20:53.660 --> 20:58.364 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you know, but it could be something like, like, you wouldn't really expect. 20:58.384 --> 21:03.389 [SPEAKER_00]: And then it starts this conversation of the tension, right? 21:03.449 --> 21:08.333 [SPEAKER_00]: The disconnection, some kind of, you know, from an executive function when you're in states of anxiety and all sorts of things. 21:08.373 --> 21:16.881 [SPEAKER_00]: So I find the semantic component one that often was just overlooked 21:16.861 --> 21:19.325 [SPEAKER_00]: But other things become more irrelevant. 21:19.646 --> 21:22.190 [SPEAKER_01]: It makes perfect sense and no pun intended. 21:22.611 --> 21:22.711 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 21:23.612 --> 21:40.962 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, you have this list of sneaky ways, perfectionism shows up, underground emotions, body tweaks, tension and pain, negative beliefs, head spins, harmful behavior and the healthy addictions, imposter syndrome, intercarations, illusions and misconceptions. 21:40.942 --> 21:49.641 [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, the list that I actually really, if I have a write another book, I'm going to quote you about this. 21:50.683 --> 21:53.670 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you said they're, they're kind of four different ways. 21:53.710 --> 21:57.017 [SPEAKER_01]: They're perfecting, performing, pleasing and producing. 21:57.037 --> 21:59.102 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was just such a, 21:59.082 --> 22:17.040 [SPEAKER_01]: a wonderful capsule of what you and I see in people, Helen Hendrix and wrote a great book on perfectionism and she says, you know, nobody walks in your office and says, I'm too perfectionistic. 22:18.961 --> 22:20.684 [SPEAKER_01]: because they don't see it as a problem. 22:21.205 --> 22:24.290 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just too tense or like you say, I've got my grants or whatever. 22:24.770

--> 22:26.954 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got to figure out what's underlying these things. 22:27.014 --> 22:41.458 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and some people will not even really identify that there might be perfectionism there, but they're chronically pleasing other people, or, you know, they are spending 10 hours on making sure a dot on their graph is in the perfect spot. 22:41.518 --> 22:44.142 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, planning their house before their house thing or comes. 22:44.122 --> 22:44.783 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 22:44.803 --> 22:50.869 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, all these kinds of things, and then, you know, it's like, oh, okay, maybe there is a tinge of it there. 22:50.929 --> 22:55.594 [SPEAKER_00]: And then again, I go kind of, I just always go back to, well, how do you notice it in your body? 22:56.215 --> 23:02.121 [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like that's often just where the conversation starts to unfold. 23:04.123 --> 23:10.770 [SPEAKER_00]: And when, so I do a little bit of, you know, psychoeducation around the nervous system, you know? 23:10.750 --> 23:12.219 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a great chapter. 23:12.239 --> 23:18.094 [SPEAKER_01]: It was very, I do know a good deal about that, but you really wrote about it very well. 23:18.715 --> 23:27.784 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, other people probably write about it better than I do, but I feel like I stick it in there because I feel like it's a part of the backstory of how we get stuck in these patterns. 23:28.384 --> 23:32.228 [SPEAKER_00]: It's ultimately, you know, or headed is not disconnected from our bodies. 23:32.288 --> 23:44.520 [SPEAKER_00]: It's all one sort of systems, all one machine, however you want to think about it, areas activate, deactivate at any 23:45.023 --> 23:50.062 [SPEAKER_00]: performing, pleasing, perfecting, producing tendencies are so disconnected from their bodies. 23:50.082 --> 23:52.070 [SPEAKER_00]: And gel something happens. 23:52.090 --> 23:56.687 [SPEAKER_00]: And they realize, oh, I have to stop. 23:57.342 --> 24:18.827 [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to go into a little bit about your evolve but the structure that you suggest that people follow and it's called evolve and each letter represents a certain direction to go in and can you talk about how did you how did you come up with that what did you. 24:19.718 --> 24:20.580 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's interesting. 24:20.600 --> 24:25.510 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, you've written a book and you're writing another one, which I can't wait to see your workbook. 24:26.692 --> 24:28.275 [SPEAKER_00]: I definitely will share it with students. 24:29.217 --> 24:41.001 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the whole idea, especially because I do so much work on the inner critic work, identifying, befriending the inner critic understanding how it's trying to protect you or help you. 24:40.981 --> 24:44.993 [SPEAKER_00]: and that we're not trying to get rid of that in our critic, we're trying to help it evolve. 24:45.675 --> 24:54.282 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, so it really kind of stemmed from really this idea more of, you know, a transformation, a transformation that can happen. 24:54.413 --> 25:13.097 [SPEAKER_00]: So it was kind of naturally felt together that the first step, my perspective with anything is embodying, like the present moment, is really, it is being here now, is cultivating that sense of your body and time in space and paying attention to it. 25:13.798 --> 25:17.603 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the first E. So it really kind of, 25:17.583 --> 25:25.057 [SPEAKER_00]: those kinds of practices, mindfulness, other kinds of practices can help you get in the present moment too, just noticing your surroundings and things like that. 25:25.678 --> 25:28.584 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's often something that perfectionists don't take time to do. 25:28.604 --> 25:30.748 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no. 25:33.479 --> 25:36.163 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, just stopping for three minutes. 25:36.384 --> 25:37.626 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, 30 seconds. 25:37.686 --> 25:38.487 [SPEAKER_00]: 30 seconds. 25:38.567 --> 25:41.412 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you actually build in a couple of 30 second pauses? 25:42.474 --> 25:44.317 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's really the beginning, right? 25:44.337 --> 25:47.342 [SPEAKER_00]: Is, you know, where is the beginning of most transformation or change anyway? 25:47.943 --> 25:50.768 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the is validating your experience in it. 25:50.788 --> 25:53.412 [SPEAKER_00]: And as you know, like perfection is often. 25:53.392 --> 25:59.457 [SPEAKER_00]: they just are trying to be in control all the time and they're not actually acknowledging or validating what their experience is. 25:59.497 --> 26:23.398 [SPEAKER_00]: They even have a hard time naming it and the broader your emotional vocabulary is the more that you have to pull from to describe your lived experience so that's it's a very useful thing and I do believe and not just perfectionists but many people who actually walk into a therapy door had been invalidated in their lives chronically and it just manifests in a 26:23.378 --> 26:32.610 [SPEAKER_00]: That's that, you know, you talk a lot about that self-acceptance, you know, it's like turning towards yourself, validating your experiences, and that could feel so cringy for people to do that. 26:33.271 --> 26:34.193 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't deserve it. 26:34.313 --> 26:34.914 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm quoting you. 26:34.954 --> 26:35.915 [SPEAKER_01]: I've learned nothing more. 26:36.175 --> 26:36.456 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 26:36.556 --> 26:37.197 [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing more. 26:37.377 --> 26:39.039 [SPEAKER_01]: What if I can't remember him running? 26:39.059 --> 26:41.022 [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing more irritating to perfectionist. 26:41.162 --> 26:42.864 [SPEAKER_01]: Is this you be kind to yourself? 26:43.926 --> 26:44.847 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. 26:47.138 --> 26:51.726 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's true, you know, and that brings me to the next step if I'm smelling this right. 26:51.947 --> 26:53.830

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, which is, you know, opening your heart, right? 26:53.910 --> 26:59.841 [SPEAKER_00]: Is, you know, and that is where I start to kind of plant the seed for self-compassion. 26:59.881 --> 27:05.371 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't begin with it because it's too hard, but I plant the seed on, you know, what that means. 27:05.431 --> 27:07.054 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll draw on there's so much research. 27:07.074 --> 27:11.121 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, basically, you know, if we could follow up self-compassion, it would heal everything, you know. 27:11.438 --> 27:12.039 [SPEAKER_00]: many things. 27:12.701 --> 27:16.448 [SPEAKER_00]: So I started to just educate, describe what it is. 27:16.509 --> 27:18.292 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, talk yourself like you would a friend. 27:18.352 --> 27:27.692 [SPEAKER_00]: If you set out, you'll outwards in your mind, would you actually say, you know, and then people just start to recognize that their internal narrative is really pretty harsh and to try to 27:28.415 --> 27:31.359 [SPEAKER_00]: have a new kind of relationship with those voices. 27:31.399 --> 27:32.601 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's just the beginning, right? 27:32.621 --> 27:33.703 [SPEAKER_00]: That's like the opening the heart. 27:33.763 --> 27:35.786 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like opening up the window a crack. 27:37.528 --> 27:41.835 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the L is the hardest step, which is loving your inner critic. 27:42.536 --> 27:43.197 [SPEAKER_00]: It's right. 27:43.257 --> 27:53.732 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you've had that really harsh internal coach or that task master or that judge God forbid, that you're doing everything wrong, and that is a really hard step. 27:53.752 --> 27:57.257 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you had the first three kind of started, 27:57.237 --> 27:58.319 [SPEAKER_00]: it's much easier. 27:58.359 --> 28:07.091 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is where it's like naming the inner critic giving it, giving it sort of a name so that when it shows up, you can just say, oh, you know, so I have a little inner critic way. 28:07.111 --> 28:09.935 [SPEAKER_00]: I think I described in the book called Scarlet. 28:09.995 --> 28:11.237 [SPEAKER_00]: It's my temper tantrum side. 28:11.297 --> 28:12.339 [SPEAKER_00]: I was a temper tantrum kid. 28:12.359 --> 28:13.380 [SPEAKER_00]: I had a lot of anxiety. 28:13.400 --> 28:16.525 [SPEAKER_00]: I had a strong sense of justice in fairness. 28:16.545 --> 28:18.908 [SPEAKER_00]: I was walking on those eggshells got really tough. 28:18.888 --> 28:39.732 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, and so I just, you know, and then my mother was German, she made me tarra after the land and, you know, gone with the wind and I thought, okay, Scarlet or her, I have a part of me that is like Scarlet or her is like a temp disk right and she gets riled up and actually, you know, even like what's going on in the world in our country and get very riled up. 28:39.712 --> 28:57.788 [SPEAKER_00]: and so I know that that is scarlet and she's activated now that part of me and she's pretty healed but I can say oh I'm getting riled up that's that scarlet and me and I really need to get grounded right like you know what is that part of me need and so that's that step of you know 28:57.768 --> 29:07.460 [SPEAKER_00]: loving your inner critic, it's a sign, it's a signal, it's giving you information, what is it trying to communicate and then asking yourself sort of what you need. 29:07.840 --> 29:14.208 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and that's what goes into the next step, which is V for V, so the second V, and it's making a commitment to yourself. 29:14.789 --> 29:19.675 [SPEAKER_00]: It is that sort of like, you know, that friendship aspect, that relationship aspect, like, 29:19.655 --> 29:44.160 [SPEAKER_00]: How can I take care of these perfectionist parts or these other parts of me that have just been trying to help me but have been using tools that no longer work for me anymore right they don't work anymore something they're invalid it's just like we need to graduate from them. 29:44.512 --> 29:45.775 [SPEAKER_00]: So really committing to yourself, right? 29:45.795 --> 29:46.957 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, it only behavior change. 29:46.997 --> 29:50.484 [SPEAKER_00]: We think about behavior change is really about that consistency in that commitment. 29:50.544 --> 29:56.857 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's really identifying more of the small things that you can do consistently, especially if you're a busy bee perfectionist. 29:57.839 --> 30:03.010 [SPEAKER_00]: And then finally, I kind of circle back like the last ease about the energies of excellence, because 30:03.563 --> 30:07.769 [SPEAKER_00]: really the point is that we're not trying to get rid of a high standard of excellence. 30:08.851 --> 30:11.835 [SPEAKER_00]: That is a noble value and good for you, right? 30:11.855 --> 30:19.446 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, for having these high standards, but it's understanding when that tipping point is. 30:19.506 --> 30:31.022 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I actually really admire some of the research from the perfectionist or, you know, the researchers on the, especially this 30:31.002 --> 30:37.391 [SPEAKER_00]: No, a younger guy who has some recent research who looks at perfectionism in terms of goal setting. 30:37.671 --> 30:41.356 [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, that's very relevant in terms of where I work. 30:41.376 --> 30:45.963 [SPEAKER_00]: And he says this sort of economic analogy of the point of diminishing returns. 30:46.403 --> 30:48.386 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that you can be striving for excellence, right? 30:48.426 --> 30:56.217 [SPEAKER_00]: Until you get to a point where you're extra effort, your over-correction, your over thinking is going to backfire on you. 30:56.197 --> 30:58.160 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the point of diminishing returns. 30:58.401 --> 30:59.603 [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, what's his name? 31:00.424 --> 31:00.925 [SPEAKER_00]: Patrick. 31:01.466 --> 31:02.227 [SPEAKER_00]: God, drove. 31:03.108 --> 31:05.753

[SPEAKER_00]: And he wrote a couple of research articles. 31:05.833 --> 31:06.914 [SPEAKER_01]: G-A-D-R-E-A-U. 31:08.477 --> 31:09.619 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I think that sounds right. 31:10.540 --> 31:11.742 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll send you a link. 31:11.903 --> 31:17.732 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what's interesting about this kind of research is that 31:18.337 --> 31:40.227 [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of understanding the difference between striving for excellence, which he calls excellenceism, a little bit of a tongue twist and perfectionism, and that there is this sort of, there's this tipping point, and some people talk about the 80-20 role and things like that in a way it kind of applies, it's like you're good enough is going to be somebody else's 31:40.207 --> 31:41.468 [SPEAKER_00]: shot to the moon, right? 31:41.488 --> 31:42.309 [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be, right? 31:42.329 --> 31:43.130 [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be so great. 31:44.030 --> 31:52.318 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's to kind of catch yourself before you go into that habit of double checking over correction, over energy. 31:52.378 --> 31:55.020 [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to exhaust yourself and you're more likely to make mistakes. 31:56.702 --> 31:58.864 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I find that that's really useful. 31:58.944 --> 32:02.186 [SPEAKER_00]: So, the last eating of all of your food. 32:02.206 --> 32:06.891 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you know, to the energies of excellence, it's like, okay, and then I get back to the body, right? 32:06.911 --> 32:08.492 [SPEAKER_00]: Because here's the other thing. 32:08.995 --> 32:30.042 [SPEAKER_00]: with perfectionists is that they don't know how to have joy or you know have more ease in their life or play is where the energy of, you know, vitality is and so I bring in, you know, a lot of skills from really energy psychology and energy medicine because they're really about sort of cultivating more of these sort of... 32:30.528 --> 32:37.062 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, what energy master, Donna, you can recall the radiant circuits, you know, in Chinese medicine is the joy circuits. 32:37.102 --> 32:42.934 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the ones that are, that are there, it's like a oxytocin, you know, pieces is really 32:43.302 --> 32:45.646 [SPEAKER_00]: allowing that to come forth. 32:45.726 --> 32:46.827 [SPEAKER_00]: It's there. 32:46.847 --> 32:48.089 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just underutilized. 32:48.530 --> 32:50.974 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's how I could circle back to the E and evolve. 32:51.414 --> 32:51.735 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 32:51.775 --> 32:54.058 [SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to that. 32:54.099 --> 33:04.855 [SPEAKER_01]: Wait a minute, but as you begin to diminish or not allow yourself to understand or to comprehend or to process or to feel whatever where you 33:04.835 --> 33:10.885 [SPEAKER_01]: the more painful emotions, you also decrease the breadth of your emotions on it. 33:10.905 --> 33:13.869 [SPEAKER_01]: So you don't have as much joy and you don't know. 33:13.889 --> 33:27.130 [SPEAKER_01]: It's that letting go of yourself into an emotion and allowing the emotion to be in your heart that if you cut off sorrow, you may be cutting off joy as well. 33:27.110 --> 33:28.232 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely. 33:28.272 --> 33:33.239 [SPEAKER_00]: I think Renee Brown also used to talk about this is that when you shut down any feelings you shut down all feelings. 33:33.319 --> 33:33.840 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 33:33.860 --> 33:34.080 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 33:34.400 --> 33:34.681 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 33:35.021 --> 33:44.595 [SPEAKER_00]: And so again going back to the importance of just this having this emotional diversity like I like to think about, you know, the car bumper sticker that says co exist. 33:44.575 --> 33:52.528 [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like around, you know, spirit, trollism and, you know, religion is that we can all co-exist together. 33:52.548 --> 34:01.723 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the same thing about emotions is, and you know, I do think it's harder these days when we've sort of reduced emotions to emojis. 34:02.412 --> 34:08.101 [SPEAKER_00]: that we're not even as curious about, you know, emotion or emotional life. 34:08.262 --> 34:15.293 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it is useful to expand the vocabulary and, you know, other languages have wonderful phrases. 34:15.333 --> 34:16.495 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have to be one word. 34:16.535 --> 34:17.817 [SPEAKER_00]: It could be a phrase, you know? 34:17.937 --> 34:21.383 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's really helpful for 34:21.363 --> 34:35.153 [SPEAKER_01]: So talk a little bit about, and this is, we're going to have to wrap it up, but talk a little bit about why naming your inner critic, I mean, I, I say the same thing, but I'd love to hear it in your, in your terms, how does that helpful to people? 34:36.820 --> 34:43.247 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think what it introduces is a relationship with yourself. 34:43.327 --> 34:45.950 [SPEAKER_00]: So when you name the inner critic, you're externalizing it. 34:46.070 --> 34:50.495 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you're kind of like taking it out of yourself and you're saying like, for example, my little scarlet. 34:50.535 --> 34:56.962 [SPEAKER_00]: Like all of a sudden, I literally like physically can almost turn, like to turn to my left for some reason, to that part of me. 34:57.442 --> 35:01.967 [SPEAKER_00]: And recognize that that is a pattern, it is, 35:01.947 --> 35:17.053 [SPEAKER_00]: A part of me, you can use any word that you want for this, you know, it is a pattern, it's a part, it's an algorithm, like, you know, however soon as I'll use the word algorithm, that's there and you can actually help that part heal and 35:17.573 --> 35:25.561 [SPEAKER_00]: And give that part of you the things that it didn't get that it needed at the time, right? 35:25.581 --> 35:43.260 [SPEAKER_00]: Whether that's validation a hug, the understanding, the respect, the space, whatever is that you can actually start doing that and basically

unburden that part, you know, a little bit of, you know, with IFS, I appreciate internal family systems as an approach because 35:43.240 --> 35:46.946 [SPEAKER_00]: in that approach, you see these parts as protectors, right? 35:47.046 --> 35:48.048 [SPEAKER_00]: And what are they protecting? 35:48.328 --> 35:55.941 [SPEAKER_00]: Whether they're protecting the most wounded, harmed part of you, and they're doing a good job, and we need to absolutely respect that. 35:56.742 --> 36:04.414 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, working with the inner critic, like an inner critic, and perfectionism, often it, inner managers, that part that's trying to manage and control your entire life. 36:04.995 --> 36:05.757 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh. 36:06.177 --> 36:08.281 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's been doing a pretty good job for a long time. 36:08.301 --> 36:09.703 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to quit. 36:09.683 --> 36:14.333 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, it's not going to quite very easily, but it might take a different role that's more in texting. 36:15.556 --> 36:16.357 [SPEAKER_00]: How many? 36:16.378 --> 36:16.698 [SPEAKER_00]: You know? 36:16.758 --> 36:18.863 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you don't want to say, you want to promote it. 36:21.328 --> 36:29.987 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's really about cultivating to answer your question, healing relationship with yourself, but when you externalize the inner critic. 36:31.520 --> 36:40.232 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, how has writing about perfectionism, how is writing this book changed you as a person? 36:42.576 --> 36:43.397 [SPEAKER_01]: How has it affected you? 36:44.739 --> 36:52.169 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, it just brought so many more conversations around the topic and I think people like you and me need to keep talking about this as much as possible. 36:53.191 --> 36:57.477 [SPEAKER_00]: But it really actually helped me see that 36:58.874 --> 37:01.437 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I had a tough start and a lot of ways. 37:01.497 --> 37:03.880 [SPEAKER_00]: I had to defend myself in a lot of ways growing up. 37:04.080 --> 37:10.828 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it just writing this book helped me has really turned towards myself with more kind sight. 37:10.988 --> 37:15.734 [SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, you know, is to see like, wow, I wouldn't have been here today if I hadn't had those experiences. 37:15.774 --> 37:18.217 [SPEAKER_00]: They weren't great experiences, but they actually shaped me. 37:18.717 --> 37:22.061 [SPEAKER_00]: And to really respect the coping strategies that I used over time. 37:22.562 --> 37:26.907 [SPEAKER_00]: And even that very first panic attack that I had, 37:26.887 --> 37:33.987 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it was really such an important signal to appreciate my body for being a teacher. 37:34.749 --> 37:40.305 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think the writing the book reinforced that for me. 37:41.551 --> 37:49.423 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I remember going to a therapist, probably about, well, I denied that my panic was a problem for years.

37:50.104 --> 38:00.039 [SPEAKER_01]: And then about three years after I'd had my first attack and they were getting worse, I went to a very wise therapist and said, okay, I want you to help me get rid of these. 38:00.099 --> 38:00.600 [SPEAKER_01]: I hate them. 38:00.860 --> 38:02.142 [SPEAKER_01]: I hate having panic. 38:02.122 --> 38:04.645 [SPEAKER_01]: And he looked at me and said, I'm not going to do that. 38:04.866 --> 38:06.568 [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, well, it's kind of mad. 38:06.588 --> 38:07.549 [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, well, why not? 38:07.609 --> 38:08.250 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you're job. 38:09.432 --> 38:18.865 [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, because your panic is just as important a part, it's just as important a part of you as the part that you don't mind other people knowing about. 38:20.126 --> 38:24.072 [SPEAKER_01]: And he did me a huge favor by introducing the idea to me. 38:24.392 --> 38:24.733 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 38:25.674 --> 38:26.075 [SPEAKER_01]: It's beautiful. 38:26.255 --> 38:26.615 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 38:26.635 --> 38:28.618 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that, 38:29.780 --> 38:32.185 [SPEAKER_01]: I think your book is just that for people. 38:32.386 --> 38:36.996 [SPEAKER_01]: It is a certainly as a perfectionist myself. 38:37.076 --> 38:39.061 [SPEAKER_01]: I read a lot of it as I read. 38:39.161 --> 38:40.985 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought, OK, I want to apply this here. 38:41.025 --> 38:45.375 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to definitely want to apply more of the... 38:45.355 --> 38:53.690 [SPEAKER_01]: the dramatic as we use the body information knowledge wisdom that my body has to give me. 38:53.810 --> 39:09.979 [SPEAKER_01]: At 71 years old, I need all the body wisdom I get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get 39:10.178 --> 39:13.228 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so glad that we were able to have this conversation. 39:13.348 --> 39:16.981 [SPEAKER_00]: I look forward to your work and your new workbook coming out. 39:17.001 --> 39:17.964 [SPEAKER_00]: I love workbooks. 39:17.984 --> 39:20.733 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always recommending them so I look forward to that. 39:20.753 --> 39:21.977 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. 39:32.656 --> 39:50.327 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that this interview was especially fitting, falling right after the release of my own new workbook, the perfectly hidden depression workbook, which, by the way, gained position early this week of number one new release into pressure on Amazon, interestingly enough, for the Kindle version. 39:51.505 --> 40:10.672 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, it's for people whose drive is driving them and who want to try to see what part of that drive, what part of that Uber responsibility, what part of that need to stay in a lot of very tight emotional control, what could be challenged about that? 40:11.813 --> 40:18.863 [SPEAKER_01]: The workbook is all about holding on to what's working for you, holding on to the 40:19.973 --> 40:28.123 [SPEAKER_01]: of having a strong drive and a perfectionistic streak, but to also realize that some of it could be let go and changed. 40:29.164 --> 40:39.036 [SPEAKER_01]: It's also kind of interesting guys because the publisher, you know how when you fill out something at a workbook and then you want to go back to it and write more, but you don't have room. 40:39.477 --> 40:46.926 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll new Harbinger, all you have to do is get online and there's a specific link for my book and you can download 40:46.906 --> 40:47.827 [SPEAKER_01]: more pages. 40:48.468 --> 40:51.073 [SPEAKER_01]: I also did some meditations for the book. 40:51.834 --> 40:53.176 [SPEAKER_01]: So they're there too. 40:53.256 --> 40:58.624 [SPEAKER_01]: So there are a lot of online resources for this perfectly hidden depression workbook. 40:58.665 --> 41:02.270 [SPEAKER_01]: So I urge you recommend to you that you get it. 41:02.310 --> 41:12.306 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's about keeping what's worth keeping and with the breath of self-compassion 41:13.163 --> 41:18.600 [SPEAKER_01]: because it's no longer helpful if it ever indeed was. 41:19.745 --> 41:23.791 [SPEAKER_01]: You know how much I appreciate you being here, please share self-work with your friends. 41:24.512 --> 41:27.116 [SPEAKER_01]: Please review wherever you listen. 41:28.177 --> 41:31.222 [SPEAKER_01]: People may think, oh, she's been on the air for nine almost 10 years. 41:31.282 --> 41:39.714 [SPEAKER_01]: She didn't need any more reviews, but what I do need is a sign that people are still enjoying it and learning from it. 41:40.915 --> 41:41.596 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you. 41:42.317 --> 41:45.482 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'll take the two seconds, it takes to do that. 41:45.462 --> 41:48.372 [SPEAKER_01]: as always, thank you for being here. 41:49.335 --> 41:53.168 [SPEAKER_01]: Please take care of yourself, your loved ones, and your community. 41:54.071 --> 41:57.463 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Dr. Margaret, and this has been Self War.