บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ #212 – Mastercast: Finding hidden talents in neurodiversity (Part 2) w/ Jonathan Scripps (2026)

colleagues at the time was, you know, he, he found out that he was suffered quite badly from dyslexic. Great leader, great salesperson. I would fo follow him into battle any day of the week. Um, but when it came to passing an exam, he really struggled. So I said, come on, lemme have a look at this. What are you learning? And it was this big, thick, dense text. And I'm talking, you know, it was like, you know, big, big and heavy. And I looked at it, I thought, yeah, I'm lost after two lines. And then how that was designed is you'd have to answer a question within that text. And that was like, no, we can't do that. I can't do that. And that was, but that was all they knew. So I said, well, have you gone back to them? And I said, yeah, yeah, I've gone back to them and what if they said, oh, we'll give you an extra half an hour or an extra hour on the exam, or blah, blah, blah. I said, but the problem is they could have give you an extra year. You're sta information's still not gonna go in by the way it's taught and the way it's predicted. So we had to break it down and we broke it down and broke it down and broke it down. And the good thing is, luckily, um, when I talk about AI and I talk about things like some of those, it helps because it can actually, it can actually describe it in a different scenario. In a different situation. So how that means is, is it's not learning the information, it's how the information is taught Phil: mm-hmm. Jonathan: Is key. Because like going back to I was a kid, I was good at things like learning about facts and history and, you know, doing things like role play and drama and performing arts. Probably it's, it's given me a good career in, you know, in being in, in sales, um, with people and leadership. But being able, having that ability to be able to just, oh, I'm this person. I need to be this person. I need to be this person, et cetera, et cetera. And that's not being a fake, that's just, you know, a lot. It's a hard thing to do as, as we all know in sales, sometimes you could be having a really tough, but you're not gonna put, bring in that performance. Um, so no. So, so I would definitely say around that is, is system design and learning alignment. Design that around the people you wanna learn with. 'cause no two new, two, no two brains are the same, but also align that with what you actually need to learn. So, you know, it's, it's, we always say, and, and the great thing is how many people actually, you know, have conversations. What do you actually use today that you learned when you were 12, 13, 14? Yes, you've got a partial your maths. Yes. You've got your, I totally agree with that. Really, really important. Massively important. But apart that, that is really important, you know, to get into that. But are you gonna use that when you're in your forties? Are you gonna use that, you know, with, with today's day's world, do I, do I suddenly go, oh, I'm just gonna refer back to my book from 1993 to

answer this question. And that's the difference. And that's, that's where I think career de career progression and career development and career learning needs to be reflected of the way people learn rather than what people, the way people have always thought people learn in the past. Phil: Mm-hmm. Okay. That's, uh, no, that's been, that's been, uh, so interesting to hear. And I guess because of the neurodivergent angle, um, it is such an important part of how you learn. Mm-hmm. Um, so which is why how you learn has been so accentuated in a lot of what you've been describing, um, so far. So, um, in, I, I, I'm gonna come a bit later on into, you know, the emergent themes from your research because, um, because you've identified a number of different things from the research that you've done. But before we come onto that, um, have you covered so far the practical changes you think are required to, to better support neurodivergent individuals? Because you've talked about sort of getting in tune with how they learn that needs to be individual. Yeah. But is there anything more that you haven't shared on that particular topic that you think could be shared? Jonathan: Absolutely. So, apart from. It kind of bit of the outcomes anyway. Really. Yeah. But for me, again, we, I know we've mentioned psychological safety. Phil: Yeah. Jonathan: But also this is something is manage your capability as well. Yeah. That is so, so important. So people need to, and people need to learn how to, you know, it's it to manage people that are neurodivergent, et cetera, and understand that. But also something that's really one of the biggest things as well is hidden load. A lot of people that neurodivergent will mask, they'll mask, mask, mask, mask. Or as we like to say, you know, sales word will black it. Yeah, yeah. So we mask, um, because it's to, to stop overload and that sort of unseen, people don't, people mask and they put that kind of many, many different mark just to get through it. That's what they've been used to. Yeah. It's, it's because no one's understood why they've had these reactions, why they've had these feelings, because years and years of just get on with it or years and years of, um, you know, Phil: yeah. Jonathan: So hidden load is something that's really, really important. And this is when things like called burnout happen, you know, in the sales division it's, it's learning very much about them because burnout can come, like when you look at targets, for example, this is a really, really, you know, some people love a target. They love the pressure, they love it. You know, that that's, that's how they are. Some people don't, some people are really, you know, need a different way of being coached or managed or, or lead led. Yeah. Phil: Yeah. Jonathan: Um, so that's one of the things that, um, really, really came out is we, we talk very much about when enough's enough and when you do, you know, a lot of people will call it a breakdown, but in, in a DH, adhd, they call it a burnout, which is, it's, there's four stages of it. And that's so, so important when managing people as well. But it's also, again, learning about how that's just how, how people recognise that one thing which is really, really interested, and this is something that I around that sort of had, uh, that, that kind of, uh, way, but within the construction industry, especially quite in the last sort of 10 years, things like mental health have been really, really priority, which is fantastic. They talk about it, it's got better and better. It's got, especially in, you know, with, when you look at construction still about, which is, it's getting better. So it's still about 70 to 80% male and male in the sort of anywhere to eighteens and forties, et cetera. And, and rates of, um, depression, anxiety and, and, um, I've got greater and greater. And, but no one has that conversation around, well, how does that affect other people? People think hidden load burnout, nervous breakdown is all down to that kind of mental load, that mental health, they don't actually look at it where, down to the way that the brain thinks differently when it comes to autism. A DH, adhd, there's, it's, it's, it's very much looked at that. But for me, one of the patterns is a manager needs to, for me or a leader, manager. Identify that before it's happened. Phil: How do you do that, Jonathan? How, how would a manager sort of, if, if someone is suppressing it and it's hidden Jonathan: mm-hmm. Phil: What can a manager do to try and surface it? I mean, what, what Jonathan: point number one? Phil: Yeah. Jonathan: What would they do? Phil: Yeah. What can they do to, to make, uh, noticeable What is hidden to surface? Jonathan: Absolutely. So for me, it goes back to psychological safety, Phil: right? Jonathan: If a leader has that, if a leader, um, culture have developed a culture where people feel psychologically safe there, nine times out, 10 people will feel they can come forward. They will feel they can talk. I hid mine for a long time, not because anything my manager was doing wrong, not because anything like that. I hid mine, mine not, not my A DHD, but when I was struggling, um, because I was afraid that I was gonna get left behind, I was afraid that people would look at me differently. I was afraid I wouldn't get that future promotion because I had on my record that I had, um, I dunno, issues with anxiety and mental health, except now I obviously know everything now a lot more, but at the time I didn't. I suppressed it, I carried it back because of fear and the hidden cost of fear is huge. Phil: Yeah. Jonathan: And I know we're talking a whole new, new different statistics now, but 0.1 has to come from psychological safety. Making that person in that room or that group of people or that team feel it's okay to, you know, to speak up. It's all right. We're all human. Um, signs there, there are plenty of

signs, um, that you can tell. Um, but 0.1, and I, and I mean this is, if you can't talk to the person that's, you know, that that's your, your lead or a manager, you are never gonna come forward because of that fear factor. Because they are fear and they, and with. Other symptoms. You know, it takes that I mentioned earlier about that rejective sensitivity dysphoria where, for example, little things, like if I was to say text my manager, uh, it it, this is what used to happen. They might be really busy and they'll just go, okay. Or thumbs up or that. I'll think, oh, they're in a mood. I've done something wrong, uhoh. Yeah. It's little things like that. Or if they'll say, I'm sorry, I haven't got time to talk dah dah, they'll think, oh, he hates me. Yeah. Or, oh, I'm doing a bad job. And then again, we mentioned earlier a little bit about imposter syndrome, you know, it kind of connects a little bit like that. So that is, you know, that's the thing is it, it's having that time to be able to go, do you know what we, you need, you are safe to come and talk to me. Door's always open. Let's have a chat. And, and that, I know it's very difficult, you know, and I know we, we looked at like things like coaching, corridor coaching when you don't have time and things like that. But for me is being able to sort of have that conversation because at the end of the day, sometimes you speak to your, your colleagues and your bosses and your managers more than you would your own family because, and that is, that is massively important. And that's why I mentioned earlier about manager capability, you know, if they can. So when I looked to the seven pillars, which I'm happy to run through again, through without that first one, without that psychological safety, no one's gonna come forward. Phil: Yeah. Jonathan: But one thing I will, will say, and this is something which is quite, quite amazing, really on that day, whenever it was for me personally, when we were doing that coaching, when we were sitting there, something I, I felt I could just speak and I could talk and people would listen to me. And when I told them how I was feeling, and this is, this was in, and, and I'm sure I won't mention, I remember, um, Brandon and, um, Bradley at the time, a couple of the, the guys on there literally just said, are you right, John put his arm by literally your arm around me, because it was almost like they could see that I'd been suppressing this thing for so long. But finally I just felt, and these people that I'd met, what, once every two or three months. So, so, so that's, that's, that's if, if they can, if the culture can be cracked to make you feel that, I think a lot of this would be helped. Phil: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's really, it's really good that it, um, it's manifested itself in that, in that way. And also it makes me very pleased to hear you say this because of course at Ali we have a team of people that committed to, you know, sort of making people feel like selves safe enough to be able to have these kind of conversations. But, um, uh, it obviously has been quite transformational. It, it kind of in, in your case, so, um, okay. There's certain themes I'd love to, uh, and you talk about, you know, the themes that came through from your research and I think we've maybe talked about some of these, uh, already, but theme one with systems not individuals are the barrier. Yeah. Jonathan: Yeah. Phil: And so here you're talking about, I guess, um, it's not just systems of learning, I guess, but it's also systems of managing, is that right? Or systems correct? Yeah. Jonathan: Yeah. Phil: Um, it, and, and, and you talk about the importance of leadership in, in this role. Jonathan: Yes. Phil: Um, it's having the right learning and structures, it's having the right sort of form of understanding how communication should be made, you know? Yes. Bearing in mind you could have neurodivergent individuals that respond in, in different ways. And you also talk about standardised assessment methods, which is really interesting as well. You know, you have, yeah. Yeah. I think maybe you've alluded to this point already, but Jonathan: Yeah. Phil: Right. Jonathan: Yeah. Phil: You're correct. Yeah. Jonathan: Uh, totally. And, and one thing that I'll, since since CMS, since doing the masters and, and as I say, keeping in touch with some of my colleagues, um, who, who have been very helpful along the way. I looked at development and I looked at, say, for example, wanting to climb the ladder of success. Let's just call it that, for example. And for me, how I phrased it was, same ladder, different rungs. Phil: Right? Okay. Jonathan: So. You've got different ways of learning, developing your career, et cetera. Yes, we have to get an experience, we need to learn, we need to develop, we need to, et cetera, et cetera. It doesn't happen overnight, you know, it happened within a career progression. It took me 20 years to, to, you know, to get to sort of, you know, a a senior leader level. And I think for, you know, going back to that is who makes that decision? And I wrote an article about who decides who's going to be a good leader or not. Is it a piece of paper? Is it, is it a, um, a test? Is it a spreadsheet? Is it a questionnaire? You know what I mean? Is that about competency? I, I, I, you know, that, that's the thing is, and that's where I found a lot of processes and, and when I'm talking about recruitment, is where I've been in these particular, um, job interviews when I've been in my previous role, where they've gone, right, can you just do this test, this test that, test that test. And then maybe if you pass that, you might go on to the interview stage, right? And it could be a, it could be a math, it could be a how to use Excel. It could be about, um, you know, that kind of like competency based, you know, questions. But then I go think, but how is any of that so

that I'm gonna be a good leader of people because I can pass an Excel spreadsheet on certain formulas, or I can read at a thousand miles an hour, or I can answer a question that I can pick out with, you know, a thousand bit thousand words. No, I don't get that. I mean, when you look at some of the greatest, you know, leaders there, you know, and that's what, you know, when you look at a lot of them, they say, you, they talk about dyslexia, they talk about autism, they talk about that. And that's what I found, kind of what it did. It ruffled my feathers a little bit. I'm not gonna lie to you. Yeah, yeah. It's like you should, and I, I went to think, why am I being held back? Why am I not getting to that place? I'm doing everything right. You know, I'm hitting my targets, I'm doing this, and what are they, what am I doing wrong? Phil: Mm-hmm. Jonathan: And then, and then, then, then, then, and that's what happens. People give up, people go, it must be me. You know? But it's having that kind of recognised in that early stage, looking at the systems and you can't, again. If I was to go for, I don't know, a sales director job, I know that there's gonna be five people in that room that are, are very capable. Phil: Yeah. Jonathan: But is it a capability? Is it a capability of, you know, what I can do As in academically, for example, or for Excel, or for whatever? Or is it actually, I'm gonna be a really good leader here. I'm gonna be a really empathetic leader. I'm gonna get the best out of people and I'm gonna make them feel great because I'm gonna offer 'em psychological safety. Mm. So the biggest thing is who makes that decision? Phil: Yeah. Jonathan: And that's something that I've reflected on for a long time. Who? And, and that's where it stems down to processes and systems. Phil: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I really love that. I'm going to, uh, in the interest slightly of time, but also just speed up a little bit. 'cause I think we've covered a number of these, but I just want to summarise them. So theme one was about what the topic we've just been talking about. It's about looking at system theme two, learning models are misaligned with practise. Jonathan: Yeah. And Phil: I think to some extent, um, you've covered this topic, um, pretty well. I mean, uh, I mean you do have some very interesting charts that you have within your know about what is current, you know, what's the reality in the construction area. You talk about instead of classroom based theory and then written tests move to experience, observation and practical application. Um, you've talked about, sorry, that theme two, theme three was psychological safety as a foundation. Mm-hmm. And you've spent a lot of time talking about Jonathan: Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah. It's one of my Phil: big passions. No, I, I, no, I I think it's, um, it's interesting how you've linked psychological safety, um, to learning. And of course we talk about Dr. Samuel West and, you know,

the Museum of Failure and Healing Psychological Safety with Innovation. Um, but I'm sure that the innovation and new ideas is something that you can leverage through people who think differently, which is what you've been talking about. Um, you've talked about managers as being the key enabler Yeah. And the importance of managers. Um, and you've talked about, you know, the fifth theme was burnout and hidden effort. You know, what's visible, what's interesting for me was this question about how do you surface what is hidden? And if someone, like you said, you've got imposter syndrome, it's, it is interesting you said it, you didn't keep that hidden. You said it quite explicitly, quite early on in the journey. So there were clues in that, but possibly we didn't do enough at that stage to encourage you more to talk about it. It took to module three, you know, before we got into it. Jonathan: I get that. And, and personally I think that's, that again, it could be spoken about earlier on, but I guess it's, it's difficult in a situation that, you know, you, you, we only have a certain amount of time, you know, at the end of the day and say you've got 13 14th in a cohort and, you know, it's, it's getting everyone heard as well and, and making you feel that. And I think that's the important thing. 'cause it's hard to just sort of spend that one, that person and, and, and sort your situation where you spend two hours with that one per, you know, one particular person. But I think maybe opening with that kind of, you know. You know, we, we are here, we wanna ask questions. And, and you've you've done that, you did that and I think with the Impost imposter syndrome, yes. It didn't come to, to, to, um, module three, but the fact is the psychological safety was being built from day one. Phil: Yeah. Yeah. Jonathan: Helped, it took me six to months, 12 months within the journey to, to sort of, I needed to figure that out for myself as well. Phil: Yeah. Jonathan: But it's unlocking that because no one's gonna go, oh, look, they've got, you know, we, the thing that I must stress, and this is one thing that I did stress, I'm not an expert in mental health. I'm never gonna be, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm not, you know, I'm never, I'm not, you know, I'm not a neuroscientist or anything like that. And these, and that's one of the things, when you are supporting people, whatever, it's neurodiverse mental health have to remember that, you know, you can, you can be a sounding board, you can talk to them, you can understand them. You can use the coaching skills to, to understand that. And that's what's really important. But you can't diagnose them. That's not your job. You know, that's, that you got, you know, if you wanna be that. And that's what I've said to people, if you want to go and do that, go and train for 10 years to be a psychiatrist, you know, or a psychologist, because that is so important. 'cause you can get it so wrong. Phil: Yeah. Yeah. Um, Jonathan: um, so that's the one thing that I is, is, and again, when I did my, uh, and slightly, slightly, uh, well, no, it's not really, but when I did my mental Health, health first aider for Leaders, um, the first thing they said to us is, there's a real fine line. And you need to know when to hit that break and, and set that boundary. Because if you are hearing something that I, I'm not qualified to talk about this, it's when you need to go, okay. I think you need to go and talk to someone else. And don't be afraid to say that. And that's one thing that, and, and I know that's one thing I think is important for everybody, even the listeners, to, if you think this isn't right. Yeah. You know, speak to someone that's professional that actually does this, you know? Yes. It's fantastic. Understand it, build that, um, un you know, recognise it. But then seek professional advice. And that's one thing that, you know, most companies will, you know, a big, a big company will say, look, you're not a doctor, you're not. So, but going back to sort of like, when you can recognise it, I think the most important thing is, is for, for not just for everyone, but you guys did this really well. Make sure that room feels safe. One, one. And it's gotta come from the top as well. Phil: Yeah, Jonathan: yeah. So that, you know, if you're a CEO of a business, they need to say, you know, this is the usual thing. This is an open room, this is a safe room. What goes on in this room, stays in this room, et cetera, et cetera. And that's really important to hear because unfortunately what you'll find is people don't speak up 'cause their trust has been broken in the past, which is kind of normal for everyone. Right. Yeah. Phil: Really interesting. What, I think you've done a very important piece of work here, Jonathan. And, uh, there's been a, an incredibly helpful contribution, I think, to understanding, you know, di diversity. I, I think it goes well beyond the construction industry as, as we were talking about, you know, right at the very beginning, what's going to be next on this? 'cause I sent you on a journey now and Jonathan: mm-hmm. Phil: Um, you know, I was thinking go, you know, how's the construction industry reacted to your piece of work? Have you shared it? You know, 'cause that's a normal, Jonathan: yeah, Phil: yeah. Can you tell me what's been happening since you've finished, uh, the project? Jonathan: Yeah, absolutely. So I've had quite a few, quite a few meetings, um, about, about it. I've had people saying, oh, I need to go and change my policy now. I need to go and I wanna talk more to this. I've got people that bring me up every couple of weeks to just talk about it. Um, and I, I've looked at other, uh, people that have particular in inclusion, um, inclusion. Most people that have wanted to talk to me are people that are in sort of, um, DEI, inclusion, et cetera, so they can actually understand their policy.

But what is really, really good is I'm taking an advice from them as well, because these people have been very focused on their role within diversity and inclusion, et cetera. But I need to learn from them as well. And they need to learn from me. And that's why I found really, really interesting 'cause they're telling me stuff like, oh, you know, when I'm working on my, my framework, which is what's next, um, as you mentioned, but the biggest thing is, is. This is where it's happening. And this is where a lot of people are interested in, and especially leaders, is how can I get the best? How can I use neurodiversity as an asset, as a performance measurement? Phil: Yeah. Jonathan: How can I, a, get all those points, get that person, but how can I get the best outta that person with the systems, whether it's systems, whether it's changing, whether it's wealth fair or whatever. How can I get best out of them? So in sales, let's do sales for example. How can I make them as productive as possible? Because what you'll find with, you know, some of the, some of the strengths are creativity, hyper focus, ability to adapt, et cetera. There there are, the list goes on. It's not all, I can't do this, I can do that. But learning about the staff, learning about using it as almost like a, we mentioned about competitive advantage because people have gone to me, can you get John to do that? Because I know you'll just crack on and we'll leave you alone. So they'll put me in a room and they let me know, they let me crack on. And if, God, God forbid if anyone disturbs me, do you know what I mean? Because the next thing you know, I'll be, I'll be lost, I'll be gone. But, but they know I'll get it done. Especially if there's a deadline, they'll say, right. Focus on that. And I'll go, okay, fine. Just leave me alone for three hours. Bang. And then that's what I'll do. Um, start talking to me about the football, or you know what? I'm having fatigue tonight. I'm gone, I'm lost. Just leave me alone. Do you know what I mean? So, so that's, that's very focused. But, but it's, one thing I wrote down here is, and that's something I'm working on, is neuro inclusion is not simply in equality issue. It's a business performance opportunity. And if, and that is something that I'm working on within my framework of my neuro seven, is how can, when we talk about unlocking hidden talent, how can I help develop that person's talent when I know they've got these set of skills to make them better for me as an employer? Phil: Hmm. So I, I, I have a feeling that this might be a topic that we should invite you back and talk more about Jonathan, if, if that's okay. And, and, uh, I think it's been a very interesting and nicely flowing conversation we've had. It's been very, it's been very good. And I guess, uh, you know, when the podcast is published, you'll be sharing this with perhaps some of those that have helped you on your journey. Jonathan: Yeah. Phil: And it's so interesting to get their perspectives as well on what they've heard and how you come across as well. So Jonathan: yeah. Phil: Yeah. We've got to keep connected, I think, on this topic, but I just want to congratulate you for doing just a great job with it and, uh, yeah. It's wonderful to Jonathan: see. Thank you. Thank you. And it's, it's, it's, it's been, it's been an in incre, like you said, an incredible journey. I've enjoyed for every minute from, from the day I was first stepped in, uh, you know, three years ago nearly. And, uh, you know, to to, to now and, and where, where this journey takes me, who knows. But I'm, I'm, again, one thing I have loved, I love the research side of things. Has, has really, really something that I never thought I could do. Has massively, massively, you know, helped me with my career as well. And, and to be a better leader as well. Phil: Yeah. Brilliant. Well, on that note, I think we'll say goodbye and thank you very much for joining Jonathan. Jonathan: Thank you very much! Cheers. ​