บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Ep. 19 - Rep. Fred Upton

in Alaska. and the concern that they're sending out election monitors, a thousand of them. The Trump administration says, this is what we've, you know, this is what every president has done, but other presidents didn't deny election results. the public has a reason to question the motive. And there seems to be more concern being raised about Alaska right now. And the newest thing that I'm seeing, and this is concern around the country, is that Republicans Republicans may decide in the House and Senate that they don't want to see some duly elected people because they don't like them. And if President Trump is putting pressure on the Republicans, they may try to avoid that. the only way they can do that from the Supreme Court ruling is to say you didn't fulfill some aspects of the Constitution. And one of the things they're raising now is maybe the Democratic Socialists are people who align with more socialist policies. can't take the oath of office and be honest about it. So they may deny some people. I think this is probably still unlikely, but I don't think it's impossible that Congress may try to deny some people, as in Michigan, who end up getting elected to the House or Senate. Chuck Brown: I have one very strong thought and one very minor thought on this whole thing. the first one is to agree strongly with Merrill that there's there's a grave threat right inside of Washington Lynn Schmidt: Yeah. Chuck Brown: for the institutional crushing of national votes. And that's a strong concern. So I and I agree with Merrill. the concern that I'm not greatly In a tizzy about is this notion of the Trump wing or Republican poll watchers or National Guard troops or stormtroopers from Trump invading polling sites in swing states. I've been a Republican poll watcher. I've been party to Strategy meetings that the Republican lawyers are doing in Michigan now, that I can't reveal the details of it, but I will tell you that I am very much unconcerned that they have the wherewithal or the manpower or the experience Lynn Schmidt: Yeah. Chuck Brown: or any of that to mess around with polling locations. And the Republican lawyers that I know that are really in charge of Michigan affairs for the party are people that could could easily join. Our group in terms of respecting the rule of law, knowing what real election law is. And I could tell you more, maybe I'll tell you more after the election but I'm very much unconcerned about stormtrooper Republican lawyers jamming up polling locations on election day. Chris Vance: Right, and you used to be part of Republican Lawyers Association. I I I Chuck Brown: Yes. Chris Vance: agree with you. we have to watch this week we have to be on alert for who knows what this guy is gonna Lynn Schmidt: Yeah. Chris Vance: try and do. I don't put anything past what he will attempt to do, but I don't see any real legal or political path they could take. And let me be a little bit wonky now here. I'm a former member of the Washington State House of Representatives and the lower house of the legislature is usually organized in the same way as the United States House of Representatives and it is and it's kinda weird, okay? in the House, unlike the Senate, the House ceases to exist. at noon on that day. None of those people, none of the four hundred and thirty-five people who are gonna be in that room are actually members of the House of Representatives at that moment. There is no House, unlike the Senate, where two-thirds are still United States Senators. Merrill Matthews: Mm-hmm. Chris Vance: So if if they were having, let's say they had Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Chris Vance: a special election and a Democratic Socialist got elected and Speaker Mike Johnson and the majority which were Republican wanted to deny him the oath of office, they could probably find a way to do that. But on the That day, and I've s stood in Olympia, not in Washington DC, in that chamber, and it's it's weird because what happens is the former chief clerk of the house Steps forward and takes the election certificates provided by each state, not by an agency of the federal government, and says, These are the election certificates we've had from each state. I've checked it all off. Everybody raise your hand and take your oath of office. And it then at that moment there's a House of Representatives, and that moment it'll be a democratic majority. So I don't see any way practically they could stop duly elected members from taking the oath of office. Because they won't have the majority anymore. But I'm getting way down in the constitutional weeds. But I agree with you, Merrill. We have to be vigilant, but this is not like counting the electoral college votes where the joint session of Congress actually had to take an action. This is different. Merrill Matthews: Let me point out that there is a Center for Renewing America. This is associated with with Russ Vaught and the Trump administration that came out in October. This in in October saying there is a constitutional way to deny the seeding some of these people by virtue of taking the oath of office. And by Chris Vance: Mm-hmm. Merrill Matthews: seeing that come out from a Trump-affiliated Lynn Schmidt: Mm. Merrill Matthews: group, I'm thinking, okay, there are people they're trying to create a reason to do this to give trump some ability to be able to do it. And the one other thing I'll mention, apart from the House, in the Senate, if Alaska ends up getting tied up and you could see a situation in which you have 50 Democratic senators and 49 Republicans and Alaska being held and Trump trying to put this into some kind of we have to work on this because we don't know what really happened and therefore keeping the Senate in Republican Republican hands just by stopping Alaska from being able to be certified. Chris Vance: Yeah. I think you can pretty much count on the fact that if Mary Paltolo wins that election, it's gonna go to court. And and then I I'll bet she

wins. Alright, Lynn Schmidt: Yeah. Chris Vance: so guys, this will be the last time we get together before Tuesday, before we see actual results. We our last podcast we talked extensively about what we're seeing out there. I have not seen anything new to indicate that the blue wave is abating. It seems to be accelerating. as we record this this morning, CNN is out with a bunch of new Senate polls, all of which show the Democrats winning by slight margins. What are you guys seeing in Chuck Brown: Well, I'll go first. In Michigan, Chris Vance: Any of you. Yeah. Chuck Brown: the latest polling shows that the Senate race is still very close. We have a history of insanely close, Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Chuck Brown: closely contested Senate races in Michigan. Mike Rogers lost by a little more than ten thousand votes in the twenty-four election. I expect that will be close. The polling is clearly favoring El Sayed. and in other races, interestingly, Democrats seem to be Pulling ahead, governor, attorney general, secretary of state, which is remarkable because some of those candidates, as I said in the last podcast with Dave Trott, some of those candidates weren't really the best candidates. The Democrats could commit a little bit of political malpractice in not selecting their most mainstream candidates. The interesting thing to watch in Michigan on election night fans, sports fans, are Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Chuck Brown: the Michigan congressional districts, which feature some very very close ones. Michigan 10, watch that. That's an open seat that's being vacated by John James. And the Michigan 7th, which is a Cook Political Report dead even district. So watch those two in particular. Lynn Schmidt: Who holds those now? Republicans or Democrats? Chuck Brown: The Michigan 7th is Tom Barrett's seat. Tom Barrett is a stock Republican. He's voted with Trump pretty much every time he needed to, sort of Susan Collins-ish. And then, of course, he's stepped aside. He's got a war powers resolution vote in his resume now. so he's doing his best to distance himself from Trump. Trump was in Port Huron Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Chuck Brown: just the other day. Tom Barrett skipped that rally. Chris Vance: Meryl, anything new in Texas? Merrill Matthews: we saw President Trump twice yesterday and Vice President Vance is back today trying to shore up the vote here. And I just mentioned since you said this is the last one before the election, our last podcast, Larry Saboteau at the University of Virginia sent out their ratings right now based upon the generic ballot. If the generic ballot he says is say plus six Democrats, that usually means a nineteen nineteen member increase in Democrats. If it's plus eight, which is where we are right now, it would be an a addition of twenty four House members for Democrats and roughly six new for the Senate. of Democrats. They think the Senate is really more in play than that. But it's interesting that virtually everything we're seeing, from independent groups to others, are all showing what as Larry Saboteau calls now a blue wave. Chris Vance: Yeah, Lynn. Lynn Schmidt: Well, we don't have any major elections in Missouri. our senators, neither of them are up this time. so we just have congressional races. and the one I talked about last time, I think is a is is now by Cook Political Report, Missouri too is now a toss up. Chris Vance: Yep, and Wagner's race. Yeah, guys, I saw something d this week that moved Washington five, which is the the race in Spokane, which we thought was a safe Republican seat, into the now the lean Republican category. I think c some of the rating services have now moved the South Carolina Senate race to be like Lynn Schmidt: Yeah. Chris Vance: dead even. So yes, I mean the blue wave is going It's if anything getting bigger and stronger at this point. All right, folks, we're going to come back in just a moment with an interview with Congressman Fred Upton from Michigan. And again, if you like what we're doing, go to our webpage, RRpublipublicanlegacy.com. Sign up, and join us Tuesday night on our social media channels or our webpage for a live broadcast to react to these results. Thanks, guys. Welcome back. Again, I'm Chris Vance, the Executive Director of Our Republican Legacy, joined today by again Lynn Schmidt, our Missouri Chair, columnist with the St. Louis Post Dispatch. And Chuck Brown. he and I love to talk about college football. we don't get to play Michigan Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Chris Vance: this year, Chuck, so Washington doesn't play Michigan this year, so Chuck Brown: That that may be good for us. Chris Vance: Yeah, might be well we'll Fred upton: Maybe good for us based on what's happened so far this year. I was troubling season for us. Chris Vance: Yeah, well, Washington's had a very spotty season too, so and Congressman Fred Upton represented Southwest Michigan for thirty six years, a major leader in major committees, Commerce Committee, I know you were chairman, one of the most powerful committees in the house, somebody who was always a bipartisan leader and one of the thirty-four founding members of our Republican legacy. Fred insists upon being called Fred. So Fred, thank you for being with us and tell us, you know, you had a long career in public service, you have a lot of demands on your time. Why did you choose to follow Senator John Danforth and become one of our Republican legacy's founding members? Fred upton: Well, it's a good organization and it's something that I strongly believe in. we we're gonna have divided government or closely divided government for sure. And the only way you get things done is if you work together. I learned that when I worked at the Reagan White House. Here was a Republican president who tweaked by when he when he first won, but he won forty nine states four years later. And why what I mean, he won Massachusetts, he won California, where of course he was governor there, but he won some new he won New

York State. But why did he win so big? Because he got things done. He had relationships on both sides of the aisle. And I look at Jack Danforth and of course I got to know him early in my career, a very respected leader in the Congress. no one ever questioned his integrity, his character. His desire to get things done. And, you know, f for me, I never thought I'd be in to any elected office. That was never in my dream. I was a journalism major at the University of Michigan. met a young guy that was running for Congress. people convinced me after I said no to run and beat the only incumbent to lose in the country in a primary back in way back in nineteen eighty-six. But my philosophy followed what Ronald Reagan set out, and that is Work together. You get ideas. There are good ideas on both sides of the aisle. And my colleagues supported that, elected me as chairman of the powerful energy and commerce committee. And we had President Obama as president all six years as I was chairman. But he signed more than two hundred of our bills into law, so obviously they were bipartisan and we got great things done. And sadly we see today not the same, here in twenty. As we taped this in twenty twenty six, folks are are very frustrated with Washington and the choices that they have. Somehow I hope we go back to where we were before. But Jack Danforth led the way and I'm just pleased to be a little bit in his shadow. Chris Vance: So you mentioned the Energy and Commerce Committee, when Senator Danforth and Senator Simpson and Senator Cohen and you and others put this organization together is dedicated to five core key Republican principles. One of those is free enterprise and commerce, obviously. we believe that the current administration, in addition to adding four trillion dollars to our debt, has really turned away from free market principles and free enterprise, especially in terms of tariffs. How has the Republican Party gotten so far off track on getting away from what it was a core Reaganite principle like that? Fred upton: I had the opportunity two weeks ago now, to have lunch with Carlos Gutierrez. he was the former CEO of Kellogg, very well respected. He was a supporter of mine. In fact, when he got picked as the Secretary of Commerce under President Bush, it was a little bit of a surprise because he wasn't a contributor ever to the Bush campaign. he only contributed to this guy by the name of Fred Upton. but he came to this lunch and he's written a book and the first question was a round table discussion. about four hundred people were there. His first question was on tariffs. And it's amazing how things have gone, in my view, south on tariffs. I Chuck Brown: Yeah. Fred upton: supported free trade. and again, Michigan auto state, a purple state for sure. but If you look at it, it was not on ways and means, but when you look at all the different trade agreements that came through the Congress, you know, NAFTA would not have been passed had not President Clinton been in office. he was able to get Democrats that was bipartisan. one of President Trump's real successes in his first term was the enactment of USMCA, the United States Mexican Canadian Free Trade Agreement, which superseded NAFTA. It was bipartisan. You had the UAW supported, you had, the chamber, I mean all these different groups it passed overwhelmingly. but all of the trade agreements that we've had until now have been passed by the Congress. the administration, Republican or Democrat? Was forced to go to the Congress. they got the votes in in the House and Senate. What's happened now on tariffs is that this president, President Trump, has just done it unilaterally. He's just I'm I don't like I don't I didn't like the call that I had to the Swiss president. So guess what? I'm gonna increase tariffs on them by I don't know what it was, fifty percent Chris Vance: Mm-hmm. Fred upton: or something like that. we see that with Canada. it's just outrageous that In my view, Congress has not been part of the equation. not the way that we learned civics back in high school. Chris Vance: Mm-hmm. Fred upton: that's that's for sure. But on the tariff question, and Secretary Gutierrez got this, that was the first question. He said, You know, I don't like tariffs. particularly the the ones that you know, willy nilly. I mean, why are we putting tariff on on coffee? we don't grow coffee in this country. Chuck Brown: Yeah. Fred upton: why are we putting tariffs on bananas? We don't grow bananas in in this country. Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Fred upton: but Congress for lots of reasons they've just failed to step in and work with the administration on what is a reasonable trade policy. But tariffs at the end of the day, they bite consumers. there's a reason why Chris Vance: Right. Fred upton: inflation is up. there's a reason why you know all these things are are costing more from autos to anything else. And the tariffs haven't helped us and the president talks about we're collecting hundreds of billions of dollars in added revenue. Well why is the deficit then this year two trillion dollars and our total Chris Vance: Right. Fred upton: debt forty trillion dollars. Just amazing, just amazing. But the current Congress has been asleep at the switch in my view. Chuck Brown: Fred, correct me if I'm wrong, you were a founding member of the problem solvers caucus, yes? Fred upton: Well, not quite. I was Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Fred upton: not quite a founding member, I didn't join until after I was no longer chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee. So I Chuck Brown: I see. Fred upton: was probably second year that it been in around. But I was very active. I was a not the A vice chair on on the Republican Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Fred upton: side. And frankly, I decided to retire and not run for re-election in twenty-two. I would not have run for office in twenty had I not been involved with the problem solvers caucus. It was a very strong group of

about fifty members, equally divided between Republicans and Democrats. We got things done, we got the infrastructure bill done, which you know passed seventy, thirty or maybe even a little bit more. it was a huge success. Our caucus wrote that. we need more money for roads and bridges and to solve the issue of lead lines in communities, whether they be Flint, Michigan or St. Joe Benton Harbor or any place else around the country. our airport construction, we're still seeing, as I drive across the country and I drive from Michigan to D C I'm there still a number of days every year. There's new bridge in Pennsylvania. Guess what? The big side, this bridge is huge on the toll road. That bridge is being built because of the infrastructure bill that passed on a bipartisan basis. we did immigration reform. We actually passed that, at least in the House. we really created some strong friendships and goes back to really the founding principle of how I started this thing with. Ronald Reagan working with both sides of the aisle to get things done. Chuck Brown: Yeah, it's a remarkable history with the problem solvers caucus. I don't think people appreciate it or realize that to join the problem solvers caucus, you join in pairs, one Republican with one Democrat together. And it's a great, part of your resume. Fred upton: Well, it was Chris Vance: Lynn. Fred upton: and you also created friendships on both sides of the aisle, you got to know people. And there was also a test that was that you didn't challenge or campaign or work against members that were within the caucus. you know, I I know the members that contributed to me and those that contributed against me. you know, you just sort of remember those things. I was Privilege to have as an example a very strong relationship with Stenny Hoyer. he was a very good hearts player. We did a number of things together, Chris Vance: Ha ha Fred upton: but we we really had a friendship together. And he would come to me and said, Fred, you are the only Republican. And he wasn't a member of the problem solvers, of course. He was you know, a majority leader, minority leader as well. But he would say, he would come and say, Fred, they wanted me to Campaign against you, they wanted money from me. I said, No, I am not gonna give money against Brett Upton. I represented a swing district. We always you know, we worked our butts off every every year, every cycle for sure. But at the end of the day, you know, that relationship really helped as we got twenty first century cures done. Stenny was a real leader on that and the friendship in endures. I saw him earlier this month in DC. I went to an event for Diana to get and he was there and we we've got a friendship that that won't endure until the the very end. Lynn Schmidt: Congressman, so you mentioned twenty first century cares. Maybe if you could explain what that that effort was and then what did that experience teach you about how government can help create conditions for

American innovation? Fred upton: so as chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee, this was a three year effort. And I worked with my partner, Diana DeGet, a Democrat from Denver. And you know, for a lot of reasons we saw health research failing here in this country. we saw investments going overseas, in fact by fifty percent. and you know, what family isn't impacted by some disease. I have a neighbor. I'm looking at their house. I'm at my house in Michigan. he had MS. my uncle who lived across the street had Parkinson's. my mom was a cancer survivor. I mean we all have stories like that. So why aren't we increasing research to try and help really find the cures for these diseases? So we had round tables all around the country. we worked with MB Anderson, we worked with Mayo, we worked with the University of Michigan, the University of Pennsylvania, I mean you name it. We worked with Pharma, we worked with disease groups. And we came to you know, it was a three year effort. It took us to the very end. I mean literally it was the last bill that President Obama signed into law, December thirteenth, twenty sixteen. But what we did was we expedited the procedure, the approvals of drugs and devices. So we could get these devices drugs particularly to the market faster than the bureaucracy then allowed. We also increased the research funds to the NIH and the FDA by forty five billion dollars. And Speaker Ryan to his credit required us to pay for it. So we did. We actually paid for Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Fred upton: twice because Chuck Schumer stole them for some other reason. And so we had to come up with a second list, which we kept under wraps until the very end. But it passed 392 to 26 in the House. It passed with over 90 votes in the Senate. again, the last bill that the president signed, actually, there's a picture of the bill signing at the Obama Museum. I had a friend that went just this week and he shared that picture with me. and you know, at the end, so Sickle cell was an early cure that we found for that. we worked again closely with the NIH. But then COVID hit. No one knew about COVID when this bill was enacted back in 2016. And because of what we did, we actually saw the COVID vaccine approved by the FDA probably six or eight months earlier than it otherwise would have been. And for us in and we lost a million Americans with that disease. we saved hundreds of thousands of lives just in this country, let alone around the world. I mean Pfizer, Moderna, they all came and they used our procedure and they got this thing done. So it was an amazing thing, a great tribute to working together. We passed it 53 to nothing in our committee, and then again overwhelmingly on. House floor and in the Senate. And Vice President Biden was terrific on this. We included the cancer moonshot in that, but he was very engaged and worked with us, and we needed every day, including Thanksgiving Day of 2016. I was on the phone to Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Fred upton:

to get and the speaker then Pelosi and others just to make sure that our ducks were in line so we could get the bill passed before Congress adjourned in the lame duck session. And later actually we we learned that then incoming President Trump, actually asked the question of Speaker Ryan, shouldn't we delay this thing? Why don't we take credit for this? Well, can you imagine Speaker Ryan to his credit said, No, you don't understand how long this has taken. but can you imagine going into the next Congress? I would not have been chairman. but trying to get that done in with this administration which as we know has cut medical research in a huge way. So it never would have happened and it would have been, the world is different, but very positive because of what we were able to do. Chris Vance: So we have an election Tuesday. you've got a huge Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Chris Vance: Senate race in Michigan. I know Chuck wants to talk to you about that. What do you see happening? What are the implications for the state of Michigan? Chuck Brown: Yeah, Fred, you've endorsed Mike Rogers, your old friend, well known to many Fred upton: Well, I've act I Chuck Brown: of us. Fred upton: Yeah, I haven't formally endorsed him, I guess you could say. I've really Chuck Brown: Okay. Fred upton: not engaged in any of these races. My my mom just died last week and so I've been pretty attentive. She lived across the street. Mike has been a longtime friend. I've given him money, but I've not been on the campaign trail or done a formal endorsement, just to back off a little bit on on your statement. But we're Chuck Brown: Sure. Fred upton: a purple State. and it is this race is within the margin of error. I don't know exactly how it's gonna go. I've got good Republican moderate friends that are disappointed with with the choices that they have. they're scared of Abdul, and he did not do a very good job. He's I don't know him but when he won the primary He beat his chest rather than reaching out to to detractors. and as a consequence, it's some self-inflicted wounds in terms of his race with not only with African American voters, but with Jewish voters as well. And Republicans are you know, with the with the ads that are out there a little scared of him, I'll put it bluntly there. on the Republican side, Rogers, had no primary because he lined up with Trump and he's been pretty much with Trump every step of the way. He came a little distance now the last couple of weeks. But the race was baked in September. And so you've got moderate Republicans that are suggesting, you know, we're just gonna skip that. We're just not gonna vote for that at all. and Abdul's got a lot of enthusiasm, particularly on college campuses. And within the Democratic base, Obama was here the last week and trying to repair damages to the African American vote. But it's gonna be really close because it's a purple state and folks are more in the middle than what either side has from the progressive left, the Bernie group, which of course is where Abdul is, and the MAGA right, which is where Rogers has decided to encamp. Chuck Brown: Fred, I gotta say I really appreciate your correcting me on any sort of endorsement, and you've just articulated the race extremely well, and there are plenty of well-known nationally televised misgivings among Jewish Democrats for Abdul el-Sayed. there are fewer, but I think they're important, as you've just articulated, misgivings among moderate Republicans with Mike Rogers' recent history. Boy, the 2012 Mike Rogers was a guy that I would go to bat for just like I'd go to bat for Fred Upton. The 2026 Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Chuck Brown: Mike Rogers is is different. Fred upton: Well the defining line, when he lost narrowly to Slotkin, Slotkin had a line that said, I like the old Mike Rogers, not the new one. I mean I know Mike really well. He's a wonderful wife. I know his son who graduated from the naval academies into cyber. I know Mike really well as well, but I've just decided I was gonna stay out of these races and so I have. Chuck Brown: Mike has not gotten a lot of Chris Vance: Yeah. So Lynn Schmidt: So yep. Chuck Brown: vocal campaign trail support. you are you are well within the the traditional Republican realm with your stance in this election, I can tell you. I think all these elections, Fred, you may agree with me, they're all sort of sui generics. Everyone is different. It's a mistake to say, you know, this is what happened in 24 or 20 or 1998 or whatever. But we have a history of remarkably close Senate races going back to Spence Abraham and Debbie Stabenow. Chris Vance: we are coming near to the end of our time. We are, of course, interested in what happens on Tuesday, but this organization is dedicated to winning the 2028 election, because this party just can't survive JD Vance is the nominee or any other MAGA acolyte. We're ready to get into that fight. We appreciate you being with us. thank you for being here, all your service all these years. Lynn, Chuck, thank you. One more Lynn Schmidt: Thanks. Chris Vance: time, folks. If you agree with us, if you support us. Lynn Schmidt: Mm-hmm. Chris Vance: Join us on our webpage, ourrepublicanlegacy.com. Watch our podcast every week, wherever you get your podcast, and join us Tuesday night between 9.30 and 10:30 Eastern time while we do a live broadcast reacting to the results. One more time, Fred Upton. Thank you very much. Thank you, everyone. We will see you on Tuesday.