บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ When the Relationship Expert Needs Relationship Help, Too - Rich & Jessica

Do you want to share a hug? 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:08.319 Um and I feel like it was a turning point. 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:26.959 Like when you hug, when we hugged, I was like, Well, you know, like a part of me came online that had not been online and call it my animal body, or call it like, you know, the woman who eventually would bear a child with this man, you know what I mean? 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:30.800 Like the mystery of how that works, our unborn child going this one. 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:34.639 Um, but I melted. 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:41.519 And you know, I say about Rich, he is the kindest man I've ever met. 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:46.240 Like I said, I married this man because you are the kind you haven't heard me say that in a while. 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:47.680 But I used to say it often. 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.480 He is the kindest man, but kindness, right? 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:55.040 Kindness isn't like cleverness or isn't you know funny. 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:56.800 Kindness, it's a really specific thing. 00:05:56.959 --> 00:05:59.839 And to my body, kindness registers as safety. 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:04.720 So in that moment, in that hug, my animal body went. 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:16.959 And I run anxious or I run like accelerated, like my system is like up a lot of the time. 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:20.319 And with him, I came down. 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:24.800 And not that long after that, I was like, you want to come over? 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:29.439 I have some light carpentry work I need done. 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:30.240 He's a carpenter. 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:35.199 Yeah, not so subtle, but um there you go. 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:38.879 That was 2019. 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:41.600 Beautiful. 00:06:42.079 --> 00:06:43.519 Thank you for sharing. 00:06:45.920 --> 00:07:01.360 Um well uh actually the the same uh phrase uh stood out for me was what when you you mattered to me. 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:20.160 Uh the first time I noticed you you mattered to me was uh moving moving beyond when we had already been uh it was very casual for for me in the in the start, and I uh just enjoyed her company, I enjoyed our conversation. 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:24.240 I enjoyed us, you know, uh yes, that was a warm hug. 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:31.120 It was a feeling the the heat between between us from the hug or the heat from the tumble dryer running next to her. 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:56.319 But it definitely uh sparked some curiosity in me, and uh was doing so yeah, doing doing a little bit of of work for her, and and we uh started having conversations, uh getting to know each other a little bit, and the conversation style was was enjoyable. 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:58.879 We were we were really having a nice time. 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:15.120 Uh and I believe I was uh I believe I was a little more relaxed and and slower paced than she had anticipated as we were getting to know each other. 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:33.600 Um I have to say that as we grew together and we're having more uh intimate conversations, we were talking about uh the you know how we saw ourselves and in the near in the in the near and far future and where we wanted to be. 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:47.200 And I was I basically had this mindset of I wanted to be married with a child and uh semi-retired by age 50. 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:57.759 And I just had this this vision that I shared, and uh uh at the time we were uh kind of coming from different paths. 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:09.360 Right, so you have to share your yeah, I had your piece of that vowed to stop trying to find um a life partner and to stop trying to make a family. 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:12.480 Uh I had done a whole ceremony over it. 00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:14.720 I was clear, I was done with that dream. 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.159 Soon before you met Rich, you had just done that? 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:20.559 Like weeks, days, months? 00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:22.799 I mean, no more than months. 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:27.759 It was within the season where I said, you know, and I've had all these toxic relationships. 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:33.440 And the last one was like, you know, an outlier in terms of toxicity, like quite bad. 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:34.879 And I was healing from that. 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:43.679 And I said, I'm so after this idea of making a family, having a child, that I'm picking the wrong people, I'm picking them for the wrong reasons, right? 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:46.080 Like I'm missing, we're not compatible. 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:54.000 So I said, I'm gonna just really embrace polyamory, which I was doing when I met him, uh, and my career. 00:09:54.159 --> 00:10:05.759 And I started a leadership program, and I had a quite a few lovers of all, you know, everywhere on the spectrum, you know, hugging friends, cuddling friends, sex friends, and they were here, there, and everywhere. 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:06.559 It was great. 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:09.360 Like that was another era, but that's where I was. 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:15.200 So when I said he said, I want a wife and kid by the time I'm 50, which was five years after that, I said, that won't be me. 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:18.399 Um, but I'm happy to hang with you until you find her. 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:33.759 Yes, and I angry and confidently said, uh, well, you had also reflected on your your feelings about uh maybe in future conversations about children and possibilities. 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:37.679 And well, he knew that it was a dream uh at one point. 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:38.639 Yeah, yeah. 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:41.919 And so he just said basically, like, okay, keep me posted, you know. 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:42.559 Keep me posted. 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:45.279 Like I could confidently just yeah, keep me posted. 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:51.919 With having, you know, this fun thing until I make my way to the next thing. 00:10:52.240 -->

00:10:53.840 Um okay, but go ahead. 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:55.440 So there's my part of the story. 00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:56.240 Yeah. 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:17.679 That was, and so uh the willingness and the the her willingness and capacity to take me seriously, uh, but also understand that I had goals that didn't align with hers, uh, just really went went deep for me. 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:25.360 It was something that uh showed a level of maturity that I hadn't experienced with other women. 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:26.240 Right. 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:30.080 So that that level of maturity was like clarity. 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:31.440 Yeah. 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:33.919 I honor and hear your goals. 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:37.360 I don't have those goals, and this is what I'm available for. 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:43.200 And and there was like a that was a new template for you to feel that level of maturity. 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:44.559 Am I getting that right? 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:54.399 Yeah, and she was also um was and still is a fairly public person, has has a well-known in the community. 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:54.720 Yeah. 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:58.960 So where there's a uh, you know, she had flyer. 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:14.559 I would go through this, the the uh billboard that we had in the um in the store to see because we would date them and pull the ones down if they were past the month of being there, and I'd see her her flyer there for these community events that she would have. 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:18.480 Uh so I knew I knew she had had a life. 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:22.399 She had the you know, there was there was a lot to Jessica. 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:22.960 Yeah. 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:33.759 So it just kind of it there was just just felt like I had a whole, I felt like I had a whole person in that's nice. 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:35.279 Yeah with me. 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:37.600 Beautiful in my life. 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:42.480 Well, and a very small anecdote that you left out is I tried to kiss him pretty early on. 00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:45.440 I said, Oh, um, like I want to kiss you now. 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:46.000 Is that okay? 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:46.399 Remember? 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:48.000 And he said, No. 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:51.519 And I said, Cool. 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:52.320 Yeah. 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:55.840 I was like, kind of like, you're a lost man, but okay. 00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:01.600 Um but uh I was like, you know what's great about what just happened is we both were able to stand for what we wanted. 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:08.240 And then months and months later of hanging out, when I was, I was like, that's not who we're gonna be. 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:15.279 But you know, as a poly practitioner, I was like, I can meet people where they are because I'm not undernourished. 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:24.399 Like you know the beauty of that, you get it, and so uh I really was able to not be grippy

with him at the beginning, which is good to remember. 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:29.039 Um, you know, and I could just welcome like his friendship. 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:36.159 And I turned the dial of we're gonna be lovers off, even though I was attracted to him. 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:38.240 But I was like, that's fine, you know. 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:43.039 I have men I'm attracted to who I am able to really just love. 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:52.720 Like I still have them in my life, and I am so grateful that I lived the kind of diverse relational life that I know what that interface feels like anyway. 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:53.759 So I was showing up that way. 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:56.960 So a month later he was like, I want to kiss you. 00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:59.600 And I was like, we don't do that, right? 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:00.240 Here? 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:03.840 Uh uh, but it was funny because oh, here's how it was. 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:05.840 Sorry, I think he leaned in to kiss me. 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:08.320 What did you well I said, yeah. 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:09.759 Don't don't don't kiss me. 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:19.039 I said I just kind of just kind of like it reflected of how how I was feeling turned on in a in a word, yeah, in a word or two. 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:21.600 And and then I I leaned in to kiss her. 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:28.799 I didn't right, and I said I didn't prompt in any in any verbal way. 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:29.120 Right. 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.080 Um, you have to ask. 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:37.600 I asked you, and if you want to change the rules of this game, you have to ask. 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:39.200 Yeah, I have a whole blog about it. 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:40.240 Uh yeah, anyway. 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:43.200 Wail. 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:49.840 But there was so much sexual tension that had built by that point. 00:14:50.240 --> 00:15:05.840 So, you know, a fact of our relationship is that our sexual chemistry was really something when we did become lovers and entered into that part of our relationship because of how much we had been um cultivating our friendship. 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:09.440 Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:12.720 Building the emotional tumescence. 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:14.720 The doors went flying open. 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:16.240 I haven't heard that word in a while. 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:16.720 Yeah. 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:17.600 Yeah. 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:23.200 Um so I'm curious. 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:33.039 I know that this is um a big deal to be willing to share your story and being public. 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:38.480 And I Rich, I think I heard you say naming that Jessica was public and you're not so so public. 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:46.000 So my my question is, what why are you willing to be here and and share your story with our listeners? 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:51.919 I don't, I don't, I'm not a closed book. 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:56.639 I I don't I I I'm just not a very socially motivated person. 00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:03.440 I don't I don't have the strong desire to be in social space for any length of time. 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:09.200 I don't have a strong desire to be uh interact with many different people in my daily life. 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:13.200 Uh I have a few, and I'm always like my cup is full. 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:17.440 I've I just it it fills very quickly and very easily. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:21.840 So it's not something that I uh need. 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:28.240 It's it's not a need that I have, but I also were working in that co-op for five and a half years. 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:34.159 I know thousands of people uh like beyond the community and beyond. 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:48.559 I feel like that the temporary residents, the just the the people who my uh the people who see me, uh, I don't I'm not closed off to being to being seen. 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:53.519 I just why are you yes to specifically talking about our relationship? 00:16:54.399 --> 00:17:00.240 Um okay, specifically about our relationship because I'm comfortable with it. 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:24.880 I'm I'm you know, I I have respect for you and I have um kind of a respect for for for both of us, and I and I feel that we share a lot in common with with with people, but it's nice to kind of it feels pretty good to be seen. 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:26.319 It does. 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:30.559 Rich was a no to this interview to begin with. 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.680 I mean, let's just be you know transparent. 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:43.759 Because it's really my world, not his per se, you know, an interview about your relationship, like in the sense of do you have the desire to do an interview? 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:44.319 Yeah. 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:47.680 Back then, when you know, in that moment in the initial response. 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:50.880 Yeah, that was a that was a no-like, no, not really. 00:17:51.519 --> 00:18:06.960 I think it, you know, I appreciate what you're saying is yes, we do have a lot in common with a lot of people, but most people know me not in the context of my private life, even though I disclose it, but to have it not mediated by my filter, right? 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:08.880 Just for us to be seen. 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.720 So, one, I feel like that is me walking my talk. 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:20.079 Like, I really do feel like should any of my clients see this, I imagine it will mean a lot. 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.920 I tell stories about my marriage, I I certainly relate. 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:31.200 I am not um a typical professional who is so guarded by long stretch. 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:32.480 I think you know this about me. 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:38.880 Uh uh, but it's different than being like, you can you can see my reactions to my husband in real time, right? 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:46.319 So on the one hand, I feel

like this is you know, me saying, I'll, you know, me too. 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:46.880 I'll go to. 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:48.799 I'll do what I ask other people to do. 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:56.079 One, but two, and one thing we've told you already is that this moment in time, so we're recording this in April 2026. 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:02.559 This moment in time, our daughter, we have a child, is three uh January for January for me, Mark. 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:03.759 Three and a third. 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:05.359 She can say this at three years old. 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:06.880 She can say, I'm three and a third. 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:08.960 She's three and a third years old. 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:16.960 She's just at the place where we like she needs us this much less than she's given us all her life. 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:25.279 And in that space, we're finally able to like claim some real estate back for our relationship. 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:37.119 So I feel like this interview is coming in a moment that's going to mark a moment in time for us because it's really coinciding with the growth process that we've really quite recently initiated. 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:54.880 Um and so it's a gift to us in the sense of um orienting us or mapping us at the really kind of tender, vulnerable uh beginning of uh a chapter in our relational journey. 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:56.880 And we can say more about what that looks like. 00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:59.680 That's why yeah, yeah. 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:21.759 Yeah, it's like a precipice or like a threshold or like entering a new phase where if I'm understanding, there's actually more space and time and attention that you can devote to tending to your relationship by having being such an engaged, uh being such engaged parents. 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:25.279 So much time is centered around Joya. 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:29.440 Yeah, all of that could be called understatements. 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:31.839 Yeah, yeah. 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:32.319 Yeah. 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:36.640 I mean, that we have space and time is like, you know, imagine a foot. 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:39.359 You've got maybe like, what would that be? 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:42.480 You know, a third of an inch is for us. 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:45.440 Uh, but but still, that's more than we've had. 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.000 Like she's in a preschool three days a week. 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:49.440 We have a nanny. 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.319 Uh, she had a first spend the night last month. 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:56.480 Uh, you know, so yes, we're at the very beginning. 00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:57.519 It's the very beginning. 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:00.319 Yeah, interview us again in five years, we'll tell you more. 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:01.839 That would be amazing. 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:02.720 Yeah, yeah. 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:03.519 Yeah. 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:05.359 Um, all right. 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:12.160 Well, let's uh let's see if we can find our way into kind of a a real life example. 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:21.599 You know, when you think about moments of disconnection, upsets, ruptures um that have been ultimately repaired. 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:26.079 I'm curious if there's a story that you want to share. 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.960 Yeah, I think so it's okay if I take the lead on this one. 00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:34.880 Uh, and then you just pull him forward, yeah, as as you do. 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:35.359 Okay. 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:42.960 Um, well, so I'll say a little bit of context and then uh I'll share, you know, a a tale. 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:58.240 Uh so I feel like one thing that we have historically done well is we always circle back uh historically, uh, meaning like pre-child, and then most of the way since we've had Joya, circle back. 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:07.519 I mean, once we So we get dysregulated, we say things we don't mean, something falls apart, but we regulate and return is a way of putting it. 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.359 We're pretty decent at that, where we I've been able to say that over time. 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:14.160 Like we always come back. 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:18.559 I think that, you know, so in other words, like, oof, I shouldn't have done that. 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:19.759 I wish I hadn't said that. 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:20.799 I apologize. 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:22.160 I'm sorry. 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:25.200 Um it's meant a lot. 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:31.839 Um, like our better selves make an appearance, you know, in short order. 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:46.799 One thing that feels true is that since we've had a child, um, and also the adults that are also in her life, so we live in a duplex and we share the other half of the building with his parents. 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:50.640 So Joya lives close to her, you know, paternal grandparents, close. 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:52.960 She she shares, we we live with them. 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:55.759 They're very main figures in her life. 00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:56.880 We were gone for a month. 00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:02.000 Joya and I traveled, and she really missed her grandparents, and her grandparents really missed her. 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:09.599 So, you know, they're uh they have one child, which is an only child, and he had a child when he was in his late 40s. 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:17.279 So these people waited a long time to be grandparents um and are very pleased uh with this unfolding. 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:33.119 Okay, so you know, our repair strategy it ultimately has been underpowered for the stress of our lives and for the demands of our lives and the pace of our lives and the sort of like stakes of our lives. 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:44.640 You know, it's like what you have a child, you know, the stakes rise, uh uh in terms of like um just what's at stake, right? 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:50.400 Her well-being, our family, uh, you know, the

seeds we're laying for the future. 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:58.640 So the rupture story I'm gonna tell you involves um his parents. 00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:05.200 Um I'll tell you the short version, certainly, and try to get to the the place where it's about us. 00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:10.079 But it was not that long ago, and it's you know, not like ancient history. 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:14.400 So there's still I can feel the like uh I can feel the activation in my body. 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.599 It's it's hard, it's complicated, right? 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:18.720 Like humaning. 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:20.079 Wow, complicated. 00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:26.880 And you add generational matters, you know, intergenerational relationships, uh, and there's more to it. 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:29.039 Okay, so we've got three generations in this story. 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:38.000 So, in brief, last fall, uh, my father-in-law and our daughter, there was an interaction between them that I witnessed that wasn't okay for me. 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:39.119 Leave it at that. 00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:45.119 And I um approached my father-in-law um and set a boundary with him. 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:49.599 And I did, I used like every tool I've spent my lifetime cultivating. 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:53.680 I was really clean, I was really neutral, it's really straightforward, I didn't shame. 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:55.759 I used about a dozen words, you know what I mean? 00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:57.279 Like it was just really simple. 00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:59.519 Hey, I'd rather you not do that with her. 00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:01.039 Oh, okay, okay, thank you. 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:02.640 And it was about like that. 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:06.559 So from my end, I was like, dang, wow, that went so well. 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:08.000 You know, I'm so proud of myself. 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:10.480 Like I was really clear, I was really regulated. 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:12.160 Okay, little did I know. 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:18.559 Because there's the intergenerational um mistranslation, right? 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:28.000 The tools that I think, based on my, you know, moment in time and my skill level were appropriate, mm-mm, didn't land so well. 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:40.000 So what ensued was like six weeks of turmoil in But in the moment, but in the moment it seemed like it landed well, but we found out later that it did not. 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:43.440 Yeah, delayed reaction, we could call it, but pretty bad one. 00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:50.720 So, all right, things uh things kind of popped and uh boiled, and I asked for a family meeting. 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:54.400 Again, like, you know, create a container, create a space, talk about it, right? 00:25:54.480 --> 00:26:00.480 So we've got a babysitter and the four of us, so my in-laws and Rich and I uh gathered. 00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:12.559 I mean, this is one of the things I'm learning, uh, certainly in real time, is

like it's not any tool that will work for all people in situations, duh, but really, right? 00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:16.000 Like you have to work with the sort of subculture that you're in. 00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:25.039 So the subculture we were in is working with my in-laws for whom reflective spaces uh you know are threatening. 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:36.319 So we got to the table, literally the kitchen table, and we sat down and I opened and I tried to set, you know, the values and you know, let them know the intention and so on. 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:39.119 Again, all the things that often work, right? 00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:41.039 I'm trained as a mediator at this point. 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:44.400 So I was in all of those skill sets. 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:46.960 Um, and it didn't go well. 00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:54.880 And my uh father-in-law uh got very angry um and um stormed out eventually. 00:26:55.119 --> 00:27:00.240 And um uh the end of the story ends well. 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:06.319 Like weeks later it really did end okay, but I felt that Rich didn't support me at that table. 00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:10.160 Like my father-in-law was really coming at me, basically. 00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:14.559 Um, and um so it created a rift between him and me. 00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:25.119 Because really, like I'm of course uh able to see how the things that my in-laws do or don't do, you know, show show up in their child, right? 00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:26.000 Their son. 00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:29.599 So I, you know, that's not fair to him in a sense, right? 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:34.000 Because I just be like, uh, you're so like your dad or whatever, because I can see them, right? 00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:37.519 My parents are deceased, my family's in Texas. 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:43.279 It's an asymmetrical relationship in that sense, you know, for better and for worse. 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:58.240 So we had some work to do because then it was not just us, you know, against, you know, against is not fair, but us contending with my father-in-law and what he'd done with Thoya, an interaction they'd had, but also now we had a rift. 00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:04.160 So I I want to get your voice in here soon, but I'll I'll conclude my part of it. 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:10.559 So I, you know, I think that my like a core wound is feeling alone. 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:15.839 Uh, so I had a core wound hit, like, oh, I'm I'm by myself here. 00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:25.440 And um it was very hard for me to hear uh like how much he was sitting with, it's not just his father-in-law. 00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:30.480 Oh, that's a lifetime of dynamics that he was sitting with at that table, right? 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:33.119 The vulnerability that he was coming into it with. 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:35.440 It was so complex. 00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:49.359 So what we ended up doing was actually going to a counselor that we've seen on and off during our marriage, and we had

a specific session, like a 90-minute session, like a full session, for her to hold us both. 00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:53.119 Because at that point, it was beyond our capacity, really. 00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:56.799 Where we were doing okay in sorting it through. 00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:59.039 You know, we have very little time to do so. 00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:06.880 So when we hire counselors or show up on podcasts, it's like we could be like, okay, we can kind of relax into a space. 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:18.559 What our this therapist did, and she's kind of an elder in the community, was paint for us a picture of, in essence, intergenerational trauma that we were in the field of. 00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:21.200 Like we were, it was beyond us. 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:38.720 And and when she held it like that, I mean, in some ways, she didn't really help this relationship, like in the, you know, play-by-play, as much as kind of frame it as like a no wonder you feel underpowered, you know. 00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:49.039 And then to me, it was like, oh, so I could relax inside of a bigger picture of um this isn't like just say this or just say this, you know. 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:52.480 This is like a step way back. 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:59.359 And then there's many facets, but in the stepping way back, I could then hear Rich's side of it. 00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:05.759 And the way he made eventually amends with me, this is really big for me. 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:14.880 Anyone who teaches repair talks about this all the time, but taking responsibility, he took so much responsibility for things that I didn't even see. 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.920 Like, I uh take a lot of responsibility for better and for worse. 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:23.200 Like I can be really, you know, here I am telling this whole story. 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:35.359 Like I can think, I don't know how to put it, like I can think I see everything there is to see. 00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:41.039 And okay, he was like, you know what, there's things you didn't see that I was responsible for. 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:47.759 And that did so much for me to be like, oh wow, I'm not holding this alone. 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:59.920 Like, that's my continual healing because I'm so intellectual, I've done so much work in the relational realm, I've been in therapy for 25 years, and you know, I I'm still at it. 00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:16.720 Like, I work at this stuff, but it there's no one's like intimacy is where I spend my profession because it is so humbling to be like, oh, I am not alone. 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:20.559 You are showing me things I couldn't have possibly seen, and you have my back. 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:25.200 And you know, that level of healing was really big for me. 00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:25.759 Yeah. 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:29.119 Still working on our relationship with his parents. 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:35.200 It's it's really gonna be like, I didn't just marry him, I married his family. 00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:38.720 Um, so it Yeah, I wanna. 00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:41.759 Can I can I reflect a piece that I heard you say? 00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:42.640 Sure. 00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:49.279 So one of the things I heard you say is your one of your core wounds is like, I'm doing alone, I'm going at it alone. 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:59.920 And in that moment when at the kitchen table you weren't uh experiencing the support that you were hoping from from Rich in that that conversation. 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:04.079 And so um that's what I heard was the the hard part. 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:23.359 But in the amends, what you're saying is that Rich was taking so much responsibility, not only responsibility for the things that you could see and track, but he was pointing to things that you weren't even seeing or you weren't even aware of, which kind of like had you feel even like you you were not feeling alone. 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:28.640 Like it was like soothing the actual core wound that got bumped in that interaction. 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:29.519 Totally. 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:31.599 And and then relaxing into that. 00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:41.599 I mean, it's it's intense to try to safeguard a child coming into this world, like you know. 00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:57.440 I mean, eventually everyone will hit the inconsistencies and the ugliness and the toxicity of the world, eventually, and I am intentionally curating my child's entry, that's right. 00:32:57.519 --> 00:32:59.519 We understand formative years, just cuss. 00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:22.000 Like, I've spent my whole life helping people heal from what childhood wounds, and I spent my whole life doing what working on healing from my childhood wounds, like what a neat thing if I could offer some being a different entry into their storyline of humanness, right? 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:32.319 Like, wow, we're attempting that, and so I'm in a parallel process with her, like in attempting to protect and curate. 00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:47.920 I'm also tending to my little one, and I mean I married him for this, like I married him for this feeling of I got you, and there was that I got you through this, you know. 00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:51.599 Yeah, beautiful. 00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:52.720 Thank you. 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:57.519 I'm glad that you feel receiving I got you. 00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:00.480 Yeah. 00:34:02.079 --> 00:34:10.639 Um Rich, I'm curious what's it like to hear Jessica share the story, what's coming up for you. 00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:33.760 Uh well, obviously re- replaying the the moment uh through and uh feeling some of the feelings and some some of the perspective that I that I that I held and hold now and still generally the same. 00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:59.119 It was definitely a moment of I was the one who would have benefited coming in as a trained mediator in that situation and to take that responsibility that you feel in that moment because it was you know

you were not the mediator in that in that moment, in that situation. 00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:13.760 Uh had I had a bit of a better uh segue into uh at least breaking up the conversation and kind of creating the the neutral space for everyone to be able to have their share. 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:31.199 And also one of the biggest things that I the takeaway for me with the with that was that I I felt largely responsible about how we all walked into it because I didn't set expectations for the conversation that we were going to have. 00:35:31.440 --> 00:36:08.559 For your parents, for my yeah, with my parents, and that uh mostly um my my father who felt uh targeted when when really it was the the purpose of the conversation was for our daughter and the conduct uh of our ourselves uh around our daughter and how we um this the space that we were trying to create for her and and raise her, uh and and responsibilities that we're all willing to meet or not meet, and then we can create the boundaries necessary for they're not being met. 00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:22.480 And I I didn't set the expectations there, so I didn't there that it was obvious from the start of of why why it went the way it did. 00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:49.760 And then yeah, if I had been a little bit better uh of a mediator, I could have even in the moment of rejection uh of when I tried to intervene, I I could have maybe said, hold hold on one more second, let's come back to some guiding principles or something to help you know hold that. 00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.639 I mean, we needed our own mediator. 00:36:52.719 --> 00:37:00.719 Like he was the son, I was the daughter-in-law, neither of us was able was uh in an easy position. 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:03.039 We both had our own different vulnerabilities. 00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:07.840 But there was a moment when he did try to kind of step in and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. 00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:12.559 And I said, let me finish when really I needed him to step in. 00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:16.559 It's just it's it's a mess, you know, it's a mess. 00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:21.119 We were literally at the table that we're sitting at now. 00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:23.119 We were at that this table with them. 00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:25.840 Um it's just poignant. 00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:32.480 But I I I think that you being able to say, like, gosh, I wish I'd done this differently. 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:36.559 I mean, there's a a format for repair. 00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:39.199 I know you have obviously your beautiful protocol. 00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:47.840 Susan Campbell has a format for repair from her book, From Triggered to Tranquil, that she teaches, that I teach and that I use and I like. 00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:51.519 And she includes this phrase, if I could have done it differently, I would have. 00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:59.519 Find that so helpful, like hearing him say, I would have stepped in, I would have started my parents off on a better foot. 00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:03.920 Like that was his responsibility, was kind of weaving his parents over to our side. 00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:09.280 And that's very like even hearing it now, it's like it's um soothing. 00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:10.079 Mm-hmm. 00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:11.119 Yeah. 00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:11.599 Yeah. 00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:15.280 In the repair frame, the last step is called restore integrity. 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:25.679 And in that step, there's five uh actionable ways to restore integrity, and one of them is redo, which is like if we could go back in time, what would we have done differently? 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:33.760 Um, my question for you, Rich, is when I'm hearing you say, if I could go, you know, if I could have done it differently, I would have done da-da-da-da-da. 00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:41.280 Do you imagine those were things that you thought to do, but for whatever reason chose not to do? 00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:49.039 Or is it more like you just didn't yet have those skills and awarenesses for you to even know to choose that as a potential option? 00:38:49.519 --> 00:39:03.440 Um, I'm I have I just a I'm a like a a multi like just multi-directional 3D thinker. 00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:07.119 I don't have linear, I just don't work in linear thoughts. 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:11.119 I don't I I don't outline what I'm going to do. 00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:16.400 I'm picking and pulling from all different directions when I'm trying to organize things. 00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:28.239 And so I I'm constantly stuck in the big picture and I can't, I I don't have the ability to have a narrow focus and and and and guide myself in one one straight direction. 00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:34.559 So even setting something up like a conversation, I just don't I don't have that planning skill. 00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:43.679 Like sometimes it works, sometimes, but most of the time I I'm pretty well, especially with your parents. 00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:52.159 I think the ladder of the two, you know, the ladder uh uh of the two, it just wasn't a we didn't know what we were up against. 00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:55.840 I don't think you understood how triggered your father uh was. 00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:57.440 Neither of us really understood. 00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:01.119 I mean, the therapist really who we met with helped put it in perspective. 00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:26.079 I mean, uh, the whole conversation we had with her was about male shame, and particularly, you know, that's a cross-generational thread, but particularly my father-in-law's generation, the shame of checked by his daughter-in-law around his beloved granddaughter in a way that was so native to him, he was showing up true to his generation. 00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:32.480 He was just doing something that grandpas do, but there's like the grandpa's do that, you know. 00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:36.480 Um but that wouldn't for him, it's like that's what my dad did. 00:40:36.559 -->

00:40:37.840 That's what my grandpa did. 00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:44.960 So neither of us really, you know, had a sense of the kind of handling that was needed. 00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:49.920 Like Rich, you say, Well, you know, I fly by the seat of my pants or whatever. 00:40:50.239 --> 00:40:53.440 While that may be true, you want to tell her about ADHD? 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:54.239 Do you want to get into that? 00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:54.960 I think that's true. 00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:56.320 Actually, that was what I was referring to. 00:40:56.639 --> 00:41:21.920 That's what I was kind of getting into, is that I'm yeah, I've never been diagnosed with ADHD, but I'm I'm uh convinced just by some of the uh information uh that I've learned uh that uh there are some things that just hit really hit uh right on the injustice with what what I struggle with. 00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:37.440 Which which is a development in our relationship to be like, oh, here's a way to think about how you, Rich, show up in relationship that helps us navigate some of our challenges. 00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:41.920 And that's kind of a going in a different direction. 00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:55.119 Anyway, so uh, like this idea we're underpowered or our capacities have been underpowered for some of the intensity of what we've reckoned with as parents, it's just really big right now. 00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.000 So we uh we signed up for couples counseling. 00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:00.800 I mean, we've been on a wait list for couples counseling for a while. 00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:05.760 But when I got back from Austin, I was like, just give me who you got in this counseling center. 00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:11.519 Like, we're on a wait list for like this really, I feel like he's a good match for us, but he's a good match for everyone. 00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:12.559 He's a very good therapist. 00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:17.199 So we're getting in with probably a wonderful person, but we sped up that process. 00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:27.119 Like, we need holding to help us to grow as a couple with some awarenesses and challenges that are just dawning. 00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:51.679 Um, and last fall was a was like taking something that's kind of been in a low flame, the tension of living intergenerationally, and it, you know, reared, uh, and really showed us some places where we need to strengthen because I don't anticipate necessarily that um like my in-laws are doing this work, so it's it's ours to do, really. 00:42:52.159 --> 00:43:09.920 Yeah, so I I noticed my desire to double click and have a whole nother conversation about how to um meet cross-cultural, like different generations, especially because I'm like teach, you know, teach this process. 00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:11.360 I'm like, this works for everyone. 00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:13.840 I'm like, but not always. 00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:17.519 So just like having compassion and curiosity. 00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:28.079 Um, and I'm also tracking time, and I'm actually gonna like move us towards the the wrappings up um in our amazing conversation that I wish would go on for much longer. 00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:30.800 Um did there was something else? 00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:32.960 Did you want to say the last thing you were saying, Rich? 00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:33.760 I interrupted you. 00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:49.679 Oh, I just it it's having uh a three-year-old toddler or an almost three year old when when this this moment um occurred, but it it was just just having a young child is bringing things up for for everyone. 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.079 Uh yeah. 00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:54.239 Things un unresolved. 00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:54.960 Yeah. 00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.760 And and just kind of because we we are we mirror 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:47.599 each other everybody when we're people are together we mirror each other in in ways we there's there's a lot of things that we are are are seeing even uh not even that what we're paying attention to but there's there's things going on and we're mirroring bringing a child in is is bringing the the child that's that's deep inside yeah well I commend and celebrate you for being willing and able to tend to your inner parts and setting joya up for the best possible secure attached human being as as possible and and also the intergenerational work that you're doing. 00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:57.760 It's a big lift um and the and the question I want to end us on comes from this concept called kinsugi. 00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:09.119 Kinsugi is a Japanese art form that takes broken ceramics and puts it back together with gold and it's so the idea of it's like more beautiful because it was broken. 00:45:09.280 --> 00:48:58.320 And so in that in that distinction around kintsugi when you think about the challenges that you've been able to come to the other side what are the the gifts that you're receiving from having gone through these challenges like the like the challenge with your um with your father-in-law i I mean there's been a lot of waking up catching up we use that phrase at a certain point that's happened since having a child it this is often said in parent circles as soon as you kind of um grow the skill to master a phase with your child they move to the next phase like we're just it's a perpetual like oh now you're this person now you're this person but that's happening at a you know family wide uh level and I feel like there's been a lot of wake up specific to um we need help just like at the simplest level you know like we need to center a relationship more we need to be in counseling I mean obviously I believe in counseling I offer it and hold it to countless people uh and have for years the container is a a a real um the the intelligence that flows when a container is held around two people is not available when the container isn't held we need a container around us like and that can you know a container is literally also a a barrier like protecting us from being parents protecting the adult intimacy so I think that for me a big part of it is just like oh I can we can't do this ourselves um and we need to bring in structures and intelligences that are more than what I can offer um because I'm vulnerable too it's not I it's it's you know this whole concept of a wounded healer I think about constantly right like I'm not an intimacy master that's not why I go went into my profession it's my intimacy wounds through which flows the compassion but in my private life I'm the wounded person as in you know vulnerable liable like just as evolved as I am so really getting we need attention and help has been part of that gold line beautiful thank you Jessica anything there for you Rich um no I I uh just resonate with what you said I I don't have anything particular in particular to share awesome well I'm gonna bring us to a close and again I just want to honor and thank you both for taking the time and your willingness to let us in so intimately um and um yeah anything else for either one of you as we say goodbye um just thank you for giving us a chance to talk kind of through you to each other like he just heard things me say that he just heard me say things that he hasn't heard me say that I haven't said I certainly haven't said to him maybe I haven't said you know so just thank you for uh helping us carve some time for our relationship and creating this outlet. 00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:10.480 My pleasure okay bye for now thank you for joining us on the Relational Repair podcast. 00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:20.480 A heartfelt thank you to our guests for their honesty vulnerability and courage conversations like this remind me that most people aren't trying to hurt each other. 00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:26.880 We're simply navigating relationships with the tools, wounds and wisdom we've gathered along the way. 00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:34.800 If you'd like more honest conversations about conflict, intimacy and connection, be sure to follow the Relational Repair Podcast. 00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:40.480 And if you'd like to learn more about the art of repair you can visit drhazelgrace.com. 00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:44.079 Until next time, remember to repair with care. 00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:55.599 Welcome to the Relational Repair Podcast where we explore what actually helps people come back into connection after rupture. 00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:57.519 Hi I'm your host Dr. 00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:04.960 Hazelgrace most relationships don't end because of conflict they end because people were never taught how to repair. 00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:14.960 In this podcast you'll hear real conversations about conflict, intimacy, accountability, and the messy human process of finding our way back to each other. 00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:20.719 Today you'll hear how this pair navigated ruptures and found deeper connection on the other side. 00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:21.920 Let's drop it