บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ The Enneagram: A Tool for Self-Awareness | Marioleni “Lĕna” Mandelis

and this is one of the main reasons why I invited her to be on this podcast today. 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:14.240 I'm overjoyed that you're here. 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:17.120 It's a pleasure to be here with you, Ina. 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:18.080 Thank you. 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:27.759 So, could you, in your own words, please tell us what is an Enneagram and how did you become interested in it? 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:35.039 So many years ago, a friend introduced me to the Enneagram. 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:38.479 It was probably 2008, 2007. 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:41.680 And initially I didn't take it seriously. 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:46.000 I thought it was one of those little pop quizzes you see in magazines. 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:48.639 And oh, isn't this, you know, cute? 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:55.840 And so I took one of the online tests and I read it, but I didn't think too much about it. 00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:58.400 And then he kept talking about it. 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:00.400 So I revisited it. 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:06.560 And the more I started to understand about it, I said, wait, there might be something to this. 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:09.680 This isn't just like a magazine quiz. 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:18.399 So I started studying it with various teachers going to workshops. 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:29.040 And uh in fact, I frequently tell people, because I've done many, many personal development workshops with all sorts of topics. 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:41.360 And I frequently say to people, if there's one workshop that you could do on the weekend that would really make an impact on your life in terms of understanding yourself, it would be the Enneagram. 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:42.160 Wow. 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:44.560 So it's quite a statement given that. 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:45.839 That is quite a statement. 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.319 And you have, and you like you said, you've done a lot of workshops. 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:51.040 You develop yourself constantly. 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:52.079 Obstrately. 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:54.560 This is quite a high praise. 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:55.279 Yes. 00:04:55.519 --> 00:05:13.120 So what it is for me, and I'm speaking as a user of the Enneagram, I don't consider myself a teacher of the Enneagram, is it a tool for awareness of yourself. 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:24.000 And for me, it's also been a tool for self-compassion and also for come to teach me compassion for others. 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:28.879 And so you can see why there's such high praise. 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:37.600 Um what an incredible opportunity to understand ourselves as humans better and to understand others. 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:43.279 How do you even come up with this Enneagram chart? 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:44.079 Like what is it? 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:46.720 I mean, I I, for example, don't know anything about it. 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:49.040 How do you even start figuring this out? 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:51.279 Yeah, let's start at the beginning. 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:58.160 So the word Enneagram comes from the Greek word for nine and na. 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:02.639 And it is nine personality types. 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:13.600 And to figure out which personality type you are, there are many exams online. 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:19.839 However, the exams are just a starting point, they're not absolute. 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:23.759 It gives you a place to look in the right direction. 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:30.639 Uh, we have a saying in the Enneagram world: typing is an inside job. 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:40.639 It's not easy, even though there are people that will type you, but it's you have to understand and type yourself. 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:47.040 And there's many, many things you can use, you know, to head in one direction or another. 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:53.040 My story uh I had on how I found my type. 00:06:54.000 --> 00:07:12.399 I probably was at it for two years, had gone to workshops, I thought I was this number, I thought it was another number, and I like to speak in the numbers and later on maybe we can discuss like brief summaries of the numbers. 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:13.519 Sure, that'd be great. 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:21.920 And I'm sitting in a workshop, an Enneagram workshop, um, that was a bit more advanced. 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:26.879 It was in conjunction with, you know, another discipline, how how they relate. 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:34.319 And it was in the first 15 minutes of the workshop, the teacher starts talking. 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:44.160 Well, let's say you identify with point three, which was one of the things I had been playing with that I might identify with point three. 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:49.120 And he starts describing what the point three would do. 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:56.959 And I just start crying because it hit a little bit too close to home. 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:05.920 And when we look at all of the nine types, there's not a good type or a bad type. 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:17.120 The world to function needs all nine types in terms of humans because they all come with incredible gifts and also incredible negatives. 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:20.079 But, you know, I like to focus on the gifts. 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:28.079 And so after that point, I was able to focus. 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:32.480 However, you know, when I talk to people, we're like, well, how will I know? 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:34.399 What is the right, what is my type? 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:35.759 And I said, you know what? 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:44.080 It doesn't matter really, because the energies of all nine types, we have all of them inside of us. 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:50.320 There just happens to be one of the nine that we consider home. 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:52.000 It's our default. 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:59.919 However, even if you mistype yourself, there's actually a teacher that I studied with right at the

beginning. 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:03.759 She had mistyped herself for five years, and she's a teacher. 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:05.600 And I said, How does that feel? 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:15.519 And she's like, Well, clearly I needed to learn more about she had mistyped herself as a one, about the energies of the one. 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:18.559 There was much learning for me around there. 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:25.759 And so that's why I tell people, don't get caught up on exactly what your type is. 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:29.440 Just kind of learn throughout. 00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:48.159 Um so is it possible for people to shift from one type to another as they grow through their life, or is it considered that innately from birth you have this one type that it stands out more and that it just plays out differently throughout our life? 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:57.600 Um Well, it is not possible to shift in the type from type one to type three. 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:11.440 However, what does happen, and uh Russ Hudson, who is one of the teachers I study with a lot, is there's nine types and there's nine levels of development. 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:38.879 So, what it is possible to do is, you know, the bottom level is psychosis, and the upper levels are a more aware, being more aware of your enniotype, being more aware of your gifts, and more aware of the patterns and the things that don't serve you in your enniotype. 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:47.279 So it is not about becoming better exactly. 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:51.279 It's not about fixing anything, it's about awareness. 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:55.759 You know, one of my favorite quotes is simple awareness is often curative. 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:02.960 And like my favorite story about myself is I've been studying it for a couple of years. 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:09.840 I went to visit my parents, and uh, and this is a true story because people are like, you're making this up. 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:20.639 In the week before, my father had been diagnosed with stage four cancer, and then two other family uh members were in severe personal crisis. 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:24.320 And so everything around me was falling apart. 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:38.559 I'm standing in the kitchen of my parents' home, and I look at the kitchen cabinets, which are fine, they don't, they're not disorganized, but I decide I need to organize them. 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:41.600 I identify with point three. 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:50.320 Point three in every situation wants to bring value, wants to get things done, is very efficient, very productive. 00:11:50.559 --> 00:12:04.720 And I have my hand on the handle of the kitchen door, and I'm about to open it, and I hear, look what you are about to do. 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:14.080 And it was that awareness that no, these cabinets never need really never needed to be organized for decades to come. 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:17.759 But it was my pattern that I was playing out. 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:20.000 The world was falling apart around me. 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:27.519 I could not fix any of the three problems that were going on, but I could reorganize the cabinets. 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:30.080 Now it doesn't mean I didn't do it. 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:32.320 That's why people are like, oh, and then you didn't do it. 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:39.840 I said, no, I opened the cabinets, emptied everything out onto the table, and my mother's so sweet, okay, honey. 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:51.600 But I did it with the awareness of why I'm doing it, which is very different than doing it without the awareness of why I was doing it. 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:56.879 And so that's the awareness that the Enneagram brings to us. 00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:01.120 And that is why I feel it's so valuable. 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:13.679 It's beautiful because this is so much of a goal in psychotherapy as well, is to bring awareness to our life, our world. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:24.559 And the key ultimately is not necessarily to change things in our life, it's to have the freedom to make decisions of whether we want to change or not. 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:25.919 What do we want to do? 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:39.440 And so sometimes uh some of my patients tell me, like, well, you know, I was doing this, and then I was aware, I realized that this is what's happening, but I still did it anyway. 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.840 And I said, Well, that's that's great in a way, because you just made a choice. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.559 You were aware and you made a choice. 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:48.639 That's exactly what we're here for. 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.279 What kind of a choice you make, that's up to you. 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:54.000 Um, but ultimately you had a choice. 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:57.200 And so did you, apparently, with your with the cabinets. 00:13:57.840 --> 00:13:58.240 Right. 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:02.720 And I did it anyway, like you said, like your your patient said. 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:18.159 Um So it is, you know, one of the the things that some people will say when they're first introduced to the Enneagram, they're like, I I I am so special, you can't put me in a box. 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:20.000 Like, I can't be one of the nine. 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:22.799 I'm just like beyond one of the nine. 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:29.120 And we say the Enneagram is not about putting you in the box. 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:32.159 It's about helping you get out of the box. 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:34.720 Can you explain that, please? 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:36.159 That's beautiful as well. 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:40.559 What is it about the Enneagram that uh does help you do that? 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:50.879 Actually, just the other day, you know, I've used the Enneagram forever, you know, for for many, many years. 00:14:52.320 --> 00:15:01.200 And there was a situation yesterday where it appealed back just another layer and I

could see what I was doing. 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:23.120 So an example of getting out of the box is if we keep running our patterns and we can't figure out why it is that we can't get something done or do something that we really want. 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:36.320 We have to, well, as a as a psychiatrist, I'm not telling you anything you don't know, we have to look at what patterns are not serving us. 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:54.799 The way that I best understand the Enneagram and how it can help us be whatever human we want to be, the best human we want to be, is when we're born, this is my understanding of it. 00:15:56.240 --> 00:16:08.240 We are very connected to the unity of the universe, the one God, presence, whatever it is, whatever your word is, the infinite. 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:18.559 And as we function in the world, we slowly disconnect from the one, from the universe. 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:30.240 And as humans, connected to our heart is our desire to get back to that connection, to feel that connection that we felt as newborns. 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:47.919 And so we develop patterns that come from our upbringing, our surroundings, the circumstances that we live in that ultimately help us survive. 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.440 And in our mind, we're like, you know what? 00:16:51.759 --> 00:17:03.759 If I was just the most valuable person and I brought value to everything, I would be able to get back connected to the one, to the universe, to the infinite. 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:09.599 If I was perfect, I could then get back connected to that point. 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:19.839 Uh, if I would spread love and take care of everybody, that is what is going to get me back connected to the infinite. 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:32.160 And so with each type, they have a way that they believe if I do this, I'm going to connect back to the infinite. 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:50.559 So for instance, my type, my the point I identify with is three, if I am just valuable to people, if I am productive and efficient and get things done and fix things, that will get me back connected to the infinite. 00:17:50.799 --> 00:18:02.640 Or type one, which is a perfectionist, if I am perfect in all things, then that's going to get me connected back to the infinite. 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:24.480 And the truth is what we do, and this is what the Enneagram shows us, are not really the essential quality that we need to connect to the infinite presence awareness, but they're like kind of fake junk food versions of it. 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:31.920 And so what the Enneagram teaches us is what is that essential quality? 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:48.240 We need to become aware within ourselves that as a three, I stopped believing that I need to do things and be valuable in order to be able to exist on this earth and to connect to the infinite. 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:54.160 It doesn't mean I stop doing the gift that I have. 00:18:54.400 --> 00:19:01.359 So the, you know, it is a gift to have, to be able to get things done and be efficient and productive. 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:21.759 However, and I'm still learning this, so I'm not telling you like I have, you know, figured all this out, is can I do that without the charge that happens behind it, where I get manic and obsessive and I'm a workaholic and I do too much work? 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:30.160 And can I get there without that kind of manic energy behind it? 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:34.480 Or the type one, the perfectionist. 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:39.519 I I use the type one as an example because it's kind of easy for people to understand perfectionist. 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:52.559 Can the perfectionist work for ultimate perfection that doesn't include like an OCD, like, oh no, this has to be here, this has to be here. 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:54.880 Can that happen? 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:57.440 And that's how you get out of the box. 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:11.839 In my experience and friends' experience, I have experienced it in little short bursts of time, sometimes longer, but it's easy to slip back. 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:15.599 So, what I love about the Enneagram, it's about being human. 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:17.759 It's not about being perfect. 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:22.640 It's not about resolving everything, and now I'm a perfect human being. 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:30.720 It's a constant evolution and understanding of who we are as human beings on earth. 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:43.599 Um, so could we maybe go back to the basics and could you please explain if someone wanted to find out what type they are, how would they even go about it? 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:51.519 You said that there are tests, you can do like an like um, I guess an online test, or how would even someone go about this? 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:53.519 And then what did the results say? 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:55.359 There, you said that there are nine types. 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:57.599 Could you kind of go into also what they are? 00:20:58.000 --> 00:20:59.599 Yes, let's talk about that. 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:08.799 So, first of all, there are many Enneagram tests out there on the internet, and you need to remember they're not they're not decisive. 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:15.440 Like if you take the test and a number comes up, that isn't the type that you are. 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.880 It is a starting point, it's not an ending point. 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:30.799 So on one of my teachers, um uh Russ Hudson.com, uh, he is one of my beloved teachers that I have taken uh many courses with. 00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:36.079 He has some uh I believe he has an exam on his website. 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:46.240 However, more importantly, and I just went there today in preparation for this, he has little videos describing each of the nine types. 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:52.400 And so if you want to go right to the exam, start with, you know, go to the exam. 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:59.759 However,

I would highly recommend listening to the little videos on each type. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.519 And listen to all nine. 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:04.640 I don't think the videos are very uh long. 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:15.680 And while you're listening, you know, you know, my experience when I first started this, and I think it's a very common experience, people are like, oh yeah, I do that. 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:17.200 Oh yeah, I do that. 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:32.000 However, when the one comes up that is probably the point that you land on, the type that you land on, for me, it felt very uncomfortable. 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:36.079 So the other ones, I'm like, yeah, I do that, yeah, I do that. 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:43.839 But when I got to my type, it was hard to say, yeah, I do that because I was very uncomfortable. 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:46.799 It was hitting a little bit too close to home. 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:49.599 And so that's where I would start. 00:22:49.759 --> 00:23:00.960 Start with rut rushudson.com, R-U-S-S-H-U-D-S-O-N.com and uh look for his little videos. 00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:01.920 They're free. 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:06.559 I don't remember exactly where on the website, and start there. 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:19.200 And so let's just go through, I'm gonna just give you like little summaries of each, but this is not to be taken as, oh, this is what I am. 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:23.200 Again, this is an exploration, this is just a starting point. 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:34.160 So if we uh start with type one, and when you're out there on the internet, you'll see that some of them get labeled. 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:38.880 I like to stick with the number because the label may lead you astray. 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:45.279 So, for instance, one of the labels we use for type one is the reformer, which that doesn't mean anything to me. 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:47.759 I like to stay with just the number. 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:48.240 Yeah. 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:53.759 So type one is uh the perfectionist. 00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:03.200 It is the individual that has a specific way of doing things, and their way is the correct way. 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:09.599 Uh, they are principled, purposeful, self-controlled, and perfectionistic. 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:26.000 So the gift of type one is they embody an essential goodness and sacredness, which is very different than getting all uptight about things being a certain way. 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:28.000 So that's type one. 00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:29.279 Is that helpful, Ina? 00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:30.319 Like this kind of summary? 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:31.119 Perfect. 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:32.160 Yes, thank you. 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:40.000 Um, then type two is um, I'm gonna give you the labels, but don't stick with the labels. 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:41.279 It's called the helper. 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:44.240 And actually, this label is actually very useful. 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:50.480 It is the person that is always the one to jump up and volunteer uh for something. 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:54.640 It's the person that is always trying to help you. 00:24:54.799 --> 00:25:07.920 Um, sometimes even if you don't need help, um they are uh definitely caring, generous, demonstrative, people pleasing, and possessive. 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:20.480 Um however, their essential quality because I like to many people only talk about the negatives, and I love to talk about also the gift. 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.279 Their essential quality is ultimate love. 00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:27.839 You know, they're doing all of this to express their love. 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:33.200 Um then type three. 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:38.160 I know a lot about this one because this is the point that I land on. 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:57.200 Um we uh as a country, I don't know if we're a type three country anymore, but we were considered that a lot of our population, no, strike, it's not a lot of our population that we're a type three country. 00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:03.200 It's about achieving, about being productive, about being efficient, about getting things done. 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:13.599 So many times uh type threes are not found in personal growth work because they don't think there's anything wrong with them. 00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:15.359 They're like, well, what's the problem? 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:17.440 I'm getting everything done. 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:24.480 Um, but this is kind of like behind it is a mania. 00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:29.359 This is where you find a workaholic, which I'm very familiar with. 00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:39.440 And their essential quality is essential value, bringing value and authenticity to every situation. 00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:51.519 It doesn't mean they don't get things done, but it means that they get things done with an essential quality that they don't get all uptight, that it's about them. 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:56.799 The next one we have is type four. 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:05.359 These uh many times highly creative people, artists, will uh type themselves as type four. 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:28.559 It is um also one of the when you're going through a rough patch and you might find the Enneagram, when those people try to find their type, they will land on type four, but they're not type four. 00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:35.200 It's one of the most common mistyped numbers, meaning they end up on type four, but they're not really type four. 00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:56.079 These are um it's it can be a sensitive, withdrawn type, self-absorbed and temperamental, um, really seeking out beauty and creativity, and they uh want to feel uh different and special than anybody else. 00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:07.119 Their gift is having an essential identity, like an identity of who they are without having to make different colored hair. 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.079 That's just one example that just came to me.

00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:12.960 Not that there's anything wrong with different colored hair. 00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:23.599 Um so type four, I would say, uh, and I've met many type fours in my travels and you know, in the workshops. 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:28.079 Um sometimes people are like, I'm a type four. 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:33.920 They're not a type four because the real type four isn't happy about being a type four. 00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:38.880 They'll be like, I don't know if I'm that. 00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:43.440 So that's just something, you know, if you're playing with it, just to be careful. 00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:49.200 I'm not saying that you're not a type four, but just be careful that this is one of the most mistyped points. 00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:53.440 Then uh type five is the investigator. 00:28:54.480 --> 00:29:02.240 And this is the person that researches and has lots of information and sources. 00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:13.039 Um people that really, this is the people you want to go to when you're wondering about a topic and you don't want to do the research. 00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:18.079 Find a type five and see if they have done the research. 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:34.799 Um, they are usually intensely cerebral, uh, sometimes secretive and isolated, not necessarily because they don't want to share, but you're kind of interfering with their research on whatever it is that you know they're reading on. 00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:40.079 Um the gift of it is essential illumination and clarity, right? 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:53.920 Like to really have somebody who can take all of these complicated, you know, uh subjects that they're researching and bring a clarity to it and an illumination. 00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:58.720 So when they share it with us, we're like, oh, that is a true gift. 00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:03.039 Then we go to type six. 00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:14.240 Um this is uh my teacher Russ describes it as somebody who has angst, like anxiety. 00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:33.200 Um they are very responsible people, but there's a the anxiousness is so built into their essence that they sometimes don't know what it's like not to be anxious. 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:41.599 Um they're very much about doing the right thing for the community, for the world. 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.039 Uh, but sometimes their anxiety gets in the way. 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:58.640 Um and the essential quality for them, the gift is essential awakeness to be awake without the fear and the anxiety of that the world right now is bringing to us. 00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:03.440 And uh, type seven. 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:05.680 It's interesting. 00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:12.720 As I go to the through the types, um it I can embody the energy of it. 00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:21.200 Um, and so type seven is the enthusiast, the one that has great ideas and let's do this and let's do that. 00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:27.440 Um, but sometimes their attention span is very short, but they're very fun to be with. 00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:37.119 Um so they're spontaneous, they're versatile, they're acquisitive, and scattered. 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:45.599 And their ultimate essential quality is their pursuit of freedom, right? 00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:47.200 They want to do all these things. 00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:58.160 It's a it's all ultimately freedom, even though they can't get there by, you know, being scattered and let's do this and let's do this and let's do that. 00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:02.720 Uh, but they are like kind of fun party people to have around. 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:08.240 Um and then ah, type eight. 00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:15.599 Um this is um type eights make incredible leaders. 00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:20.960 Um, they are self-confident, decisive, willful, and confrontational. 00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:34.319 Um tragically, when they have a lower level of functioning, not gonna name names, it they can be very dangerous. 00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:38.720 However, they can be amazing leaders. 00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:44.720 And I have a story about an eight, um, which is very personal to me. 00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:54.400 I, you know, had been studying this for some years, and my husband said, Oh, I would like to take a, you know, intro Enneagram course. 00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:56.079 And I said, Oh, well, take it with you. 00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:58.000 That'll be fun to do it together. 00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:00.319 And so we take the course. 00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:06.160 I could teach the course, I've heard the material, you know, probably a hundred times by then. 00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:15.200 And the instructor gets to the enneatype eight, and she starts describing the type 8. 00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:26.720 And I start crying because for the first time I understood an aspect of my father, who he is passed, but who was an enneatype 8. 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:37.039 So, what is magic about the Enneagram that even in an intro course where you've heard everything again, you're at a different level of awareness. 00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:43.200 And I was able to hear it in a way that I could feel compassion for the struggles of my father. 00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:57.359 Um, so the essential quality of an eight is, as I said, they are no better leaders, they are incredibly strong people with aliveness and can lead people in the right direction. 00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:02.240 And then finally, the nine. 00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:11.920 Um, the nine, I actually do like to use the label of the nine, is the peacemaker. 00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:25.599 The nine is the person that will pursue peace in relationships and families at work, no matter what, because that's what they hold is the highest ideal. 00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:30.960 Um, they are actually very comfortable people to be around. 00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:39.119 Like I love being around nines, they're receptive, they're reassuring, sometimes complacent and resigned. 00:34:39.440 -->

00:34:48.480 Um but their essential quality, their gift is their striving for wholeness, their striving for unity. 00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:56.480 And so that is the nine points of the Enneagram. 00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:09.119 And when I was, you know, preparing for this, I found I don't even know where I got this, but it's a a do and don't do list. 00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:22.719 So for example, um, you know, if you are uh, let's say on any type six, which is the one with a lot of anxiety that we talked about. 00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:29.039 And I I will reveal that my husband is is on the enneatype six point. 00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:31.840 So I have a little bit of expertise around this. 00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:39.360 And when I pulled this do and don't do list, I showed it to him because it was just so funny because it's exactly this. 00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:51.440 So, what you do do with an enneatype six is you are be clear about your expectations, reassure them that we are okay and be supportive. 00:35:51.679 --> 00:36:01.519 And what you don't do with an enneatype six is overreact when they overreact, which happens a lot for me and my husband. 00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:08.159 And then I I didn't remember this from this list is change plans unexpectedly. 00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:17.760 And it's so interesting how that plays out in our marriage because I do change plans because I have different ideas and how agitated it makes him. 00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:25.280 Um so, you know, the more you study the Enneagram, you're like, hey, maybe there's something to this. 00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:28.559 So I'm really curious. 00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:32.480 Um, do you have an idea of what type I am? 00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:37.599 We've known each other, I mean, we haven't, we don't see each other daily, but I am really curious. 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:41.039 You know, I was thinking of this, preparing for this. 00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:42.800 I'm like, what is Ena? 00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:54.880 And the I if I were to direct you the types to kind of explore and read, uh, I would definitely go for the Enya type five. 00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:00.800 Remember, that's the investigator, which is kind of what you're doing here on the you know, Quantum Couch podcast. 00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:06.320 Like anything you're interested in, you're finding people and saying, okay, let's learn more about this. 00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:14.960 Um and I would be also interested to see ENIA type two, which is the caretaker. 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:31.119 You know, I think, you know, one of the things uh Ina and I connected on, I think the first like day or second day that we met, we're both from immigrant families and we both took care in some way of our families. 00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:40.000 And so that would be interesting, interesting to see if you identify with either of those. 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:43.360 But that doesn't mean that I'm saying the other seven are not two. 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:51.280 Yeah, I I think I'm gonna be this person who's gonna go on the website that you recommended and I'm gonna listen to videos and see which one drives with me. 00:37:51.360 --> 00:38:04.400 But as you were describing the different types, number two spoke with me, but it felt a bit maybe something I would have identified with earlier in my years. 00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:06.719 But now I'm I'm listening to it. 00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:09.840 I'm like, I don't know, nine spoke to me for some reason. 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:22.320 Um I don't necessarily see that I don't think necessarily I'm a peacemaker, but I think I I tend to try to see things from different perspectives and see the whole. 00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:24.800 The wholeness is very important to me. 00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:39.280 Um and I don't think that's something I would have identified even 10 years ago, which is why I was wondering whether types change or we just realize maybe as we grow what we may or may not be. 00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:43.119 Yeah, and uh there's so many aspects to the Enneagram. 00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:46.079 And I was talking to my sister who's also deep into the Enneagram. 00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:47.360 I'm like, what do I talk about? 00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:49.599 Because there's so much I can talk about. 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:57.679 But as you get into it, you'll also find that you have wings on each side. 00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:03.199 And what that means is if so they go in order, right? 00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:10.960 So if as a three, I could have a two-wing, which is like a caretaker, and or I could have a four-wing. 00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:15.440 Or sometimes they say as you get older, you get both wings. 00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:24.559 And so there are different flavors of a nine or a three or any of them, depending on the wing. 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:26.480 It kind of colors it. 00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:35.679 And so there's the wings, and then okay, I'm like telling you more than you probably need to know, and then really important. 00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:45.360 Um, and I don't feel you can understand the Enneagram without without understanding the three instincts that every type has. 00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:55.760 And the instincts are really critical to understand because they kind of guide a lot of our choices. 00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:58.159 And there's three instincts. 00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:00.559 Actually, just looking at my notes. 00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:03.519 I love how prepared you have come. 00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:04.480 Oh, sorry. 00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:06.239 Well, that would be a three, right? 00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:09.440 Like, not gonna wing it. 00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:17.760 And so every human, um, so the instincts are primal, right? 00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:27.599 This is how we make a lot of our decisions, and there's three instincts there is self-preservation, sexual, and social. 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:39.440 So every type is either like, you

know, I'm a type three with a self-preservation dominant instinct. 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:51.679 As humans, we have all three instincts, but one tends to be dominant, one tends to be something we ignore, and the one in the middle is the one that's the healthiest, right? 00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:56.400 So for instance, and I'll describe each instinct, I'm a self-preservation three. 00:40:56.559 --> 00:41:05.599 Like, if the world is ending, you want to be with me because I have thought everything that could possibly go wrong and have planned, right? 00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:08.320 I guess that's why I'm also a financial planner. 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:14.639 Um, and my bottom is social, because you know, just leave me alone. 00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:20.880 Like, yes, I like to be with people sometime, but I'm more of an introvert than an extrovert. 00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:30.719 And so that is the one that is my bottom, and then the middle one is my sexual instinct. 00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:36.639 And so I'm just gonna go kind of like briefly through each one of them just to kind of give you a flavor. 00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:47.920 I don't know if Russ has videos on this, but actually, there's videos of people interviewing him on these instincts, and it's also good to go out and see if you can find them. 00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:53.199 So the first instinct, let's talk about self-preservation, because it's the one I really know very well. 00:41:53.440 --> 00:42:05.039 It's about um what could go wrong that I could be afraid of that would make me insecure, that would make my family insecure, right? 00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:12.079 And so I am focused on how do I overcome fear? 00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:15.599 How do I plan things so there isn't a disaster? 00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:18.079 How do I feel secure? 00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:19.840 How do I have enough money? 00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:28.079 So I guess if you were really looking for a financial planner, you would really want somebody with a very strong self-preservation instinct. 00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:37.519 Um, and so that is what drives me on almost every decision. 00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:44.639 The middle one, which I said is the healthiest, is the sexual instinct. 00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:50.079 And sometimes you you'll hear it as like one-on-one, and I don't agree with that. 00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:58.480 I believe sexual is like a state of excitation, an attraction, and it includes sex. 00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:18.960 I think they describe it as one-on-one because they want to like not use the word sex, but there's an intensity, and that's the people that kind of like come into the room in a party and are looking for where the juiciest kind of intense area is or intense person. 00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:27.599 That is my middle, which means it's the healthiest one, which means I'm not obsessed with it and I'm not ignoring it. 00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:45.119 But if there's like a lovely intense place or an intense person or somebody I want to have sex with, um, it is um it is balanced, meaning I'm not gonna like give up everything just to pursue that intensity. 00:43:47.039 --> 00:44:02.000 Um, and then social, uh, which for me is my bottom instinct, is um kind of being aware of your environment, being aware of the People in your environment. 00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:10.480 Probably I don't know that I would find a lot of introts that have a social dominant instinct. 00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:17.599 It's kind of tiring for me to go to, I don't know, a party or a bar, whatever. 00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:29.039 I, you know, I'd like to have a conversation with you, but it's too much to have an environment with all these other people, maybe more involved in community. 00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:36.239 Um, ultimately, the instincts are really critical because we want all of them to be equal. 00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:43.599 We don't want to be like dominated by one instinct, and then the other one, you have like a you're not paying any attention to it. 00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:50.320 When you have a balance of all three, this is a balanced human being, right? 00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:57.280 Like, yes, you take care of your finances and you know, you make enough money and you plan for your family. 00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:06.079 Yes, when it's fun, you go out and there's an intensity of like a place, a person, you know, something that excites you. 00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:16.239 And yes, you are able to be in the community and you know, be a a contributor, um, but not get obsessed with any one of them. 00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:18.400 It's about a balance. 00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:23.119 I guess everything is about balance in a human being. 00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:27.039 Um and I think we're also good at being out of balance. 00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:43.679 And, you know, one of the things, both with the instincts and the, you know, the types, sometimes I can feel like, oh no, no, I don't have the energy for the social instinct. 00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:53.760 I mean, that's not how I talk to myself, but you know, I I just need to just relax and just stay in this weekend and not, you know, go out and be with a lot of people. 00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:59.119 And so just to be aware, again, we're back to awareness. 00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:02.800 Simple awareness is often curative. 00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:18.559 Or sometimes, you know, I said to you, I'm type three, but sometimes I get um, you know, and when you're working with people that know the Enneagram, like I'll say to my sister, I'm like, I am firmly in my type one energy. 00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:22.639 Like I am being very rigid about how this needs to get done. 00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:34.480 And it's that's why I say it's very valuable to understand all the energies of all nine types, because I can now look at myself and the rigidity of the one. 00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:38.159 You know, the one is like, this is how it has to be done and no other

way. 00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:44.239 The three is like, you know, if you don't like this way, I've got five other ways I can recommend for you. 00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:48.719 So the three is more about getting it done, but not in a specific way. 00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:52.239 The one is like, get it done only in this way. 00:46:53.760 --> 00:47:00.239 So uh so understanding when you're standing in other energies is also valuable. 00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:06.639 That's why at the beginning I said it's not critical that you get the accurate one right off the bat. 00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:10.639 It eventually will find you, like your type will find you. 00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:14.079 Um interesting. 00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:17.360 So I'm just kind of curious. 00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:30.800 And if we zoom out for you in your life, I mean, you you completed law school, you're a very successful financial planner, um, you have raised your son, you have a family. 00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:42.719 So, how is this whole uh Enneagram journey been weaving itself through your life? 00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:45.280 Because you've been doing this now for a while. 00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:48.239 And you're also like a spiritual seeker. 00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:54.960 You've been you've been seeking and asking questions and spiritual experiences find you, um, even if you're not looking for them. 00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:59.760 So, how why has this been so instrumental? 00:47:59.920 --> 00:48:01.119 Like, why not something else? 00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:02.480 Like, why not a therapist? 00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:06.239 Why not, I don't know, go to like an ashram or something? 00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:08.559 Like, why this, you think? 00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:23.039 Um that's interesting because I have done so many things, and this is one of the ones that has like stuck with me, even if I'm not actively studying it in any given point. 00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:32.800 But for me, the endless uh discovery about myself keeps me engaged. 00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:51.599 Like I said, there was something that happened yesterday, which I'd have to explain a whole nother part of the anagram to explain that I'm like, wow, even you know, I consider myself, you know, somebody who has some, you know, extensive knowledge and understanding about this. 00:48:52.400 --> 00:49:02.719 And even at this point, the onion keeps peeling away, and I'm finding new understanding about myself. 00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:12.880 Uh and somebody might say, Well, didn't you know this 10 years ago or you know, almost 20 years ago when you started studying? 00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:20.559 I said, I knew the the textbook, the words, but I didn't understand how it applied to me. 00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:32.559 So the ability to endlessly understand who I am through this technology, I think is what keeps me coming back to it. 00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:38.639 And as I said, as I was preparing for this, I'm like, oh yeah, I want to learn more about this. 00:49:38.960 --> 00:49:55.119 Now, somebody who knows me, I have endless hobbies in terms of things that I pursue and things that I study, but there's something that keeps the Enneagram in the top five for me. 00:49:56.079 --> 00:49:57.840 What are the other four? 00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:00.880 Um Egypt. 00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:08.719 So ancient um actually I want to share that story because it actually relates to the Enneagram. 00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:26.960 Years ago, I was at an Enneagram workshop with Russ Hudson, and Russ once a year um takes Enneagram students, primarily Enneagram students, on a trip to Egypt with this kind of rogue Egypt Egyptologist John Anthony West. 00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:29.760 And why do you go to Egypt once a year? 00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:30.559 The what? 00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:32.159 Why why Egypt? 00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:34.320 Aha, that's what I'll tell you. 00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:50.000 So the reason he takes students to Egypt or anybody who's interested is we believe there are roots of the Enneagram in Egypt and we can see them in symbolism in the temples. 00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:51.679 I mean, they don't hit you in the face. 00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:54.400 You need to kind of understand what you're looking for. 00:50:54.639 --> 00:51:03.679 And so he says, if anybody wants to go to Egypt with John Anthony West, uh, sooner rather than later, because he's like 80. 00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:14.400 And he he said, you know, he said he would keep on doing these trips as long as he can like walk, because it's not like an easy trip to do, you know, walking through the sand and the temples. 00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:18.559 And so I was not interested in ancient Egypt at all. 00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:26.480 And I called my husband and said, I think we need to go to Egypt because I really want to go with John Anthony West. 00:51:26.559 --> 00:51:31.199 And 80 is, you know, not that that's old, but you know, it's getting up there. 00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:32.559 It's getting up there. 00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:36.400 So I signed up for the trip, knowing nothing about ancient Egypt. 00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:40.719 And the only thing I was interested in is how the Enneagram relates to ancient Egypt. 00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:44.239 And Russ was going and he was going to explain things to us. 00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:53.199 And so when, so I knew nothing, there was no preconceived notion of what this is going to be. 00:51:54.480 --> 00:52:00.559 And it was like drinking from a fire hose, you know, because it's this tour and they're, you know, feeding you all this information. 00:52:01.119 --> 00:52:07.440 And I had various experiences in the various temples. 00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:09.039 These are sacred sites. 00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:15.679 Um, and remember, the ancients didn't like build things because, like, oh, this looks like a good place, you know, we have a spot. 00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:26.159 They they were very meticulous about picking a

specific spot to put a temple, both the Greeks and the Egyptians and many other cultures. 00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:30.880 And so it was almost helpful that I didn't know anything. 00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:47.920 And that trip made me pick up another hobby, is Egyptology, um, to understand this ancient civilization, which spans four, five, six, maybe more thousands of years. 00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:57.840 Because it when I was there, it was my belief they had figured out some things that could be useful to us today. 00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:03.599 And so tragically, that was John's last trip. 00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:04.719 Oh, wow. 00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:12.800 Um, so I also feel very grateful that I was able to go and experience Egypt through his eyes. 00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:26.800 And his basic premise is it's not about, oh, they built a building here, and when you see geese on the wall, this is how they, you know, hunted for geese, that everything was symbolic of something else. 00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:33.760 Everything on the walls were trying to give us information of something else. 00:53:33.920 --> 00:53:39.599 And so there's walls, the, you know, there's places where Russ points out, he's like, Do you see the three instincts here? 00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:41.360 And I'm like, Oh my God, yes. 00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:46.079 Do you see the nine types here as embodied by the gods and goddesses? 00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:48.320 It's called the Enniad in Egypt. 00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:53.280 I'm like, oh wow, like once you see it, you can't unsee it, but you have to be looking for it. 00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:55.599 So that's how Egypt came into my life. 00:53:55.679 --> 00:53:57.280 It's actually through the Enneagram. 00:53:57.519 --> 00:53:58.159 Oh wow. 00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:03.360 Um, and I travel back frequently and wander around temples for hours. 00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:11.360 And then the other one is Ancient Greece and the mythology of ancient Greece. 00:54:11.679 --> 00:54:20.239 Um, and then uh, well, the Enneagram and then uh rocks, boulders. 00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:21.679 Yeah. 00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:33.679 Which is an interesting um, there's something about being around things that are 25 million, 30 million years old, right? 00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:41.039 The rocks are very old that it feels it connects me to the eternity of everything. 00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:54.960 And uh sometimes when I go to get more boulders from my yard, and I go to the true the trade landscape place, and I'm just like lingering, you know, where all the granite is, all the boulders are. 00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:57.119 It feels like a spa experience. 00:54:57.199 --> 00:55:06.800 It feels like a rejuvenating experience just to be around all of those rocks, which of course you will also find all these rocks in the temples, right? 00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:10.880 You know, from granite and marble of ancient Egypt and ancient Greece. 00:55:11.679 --> 00:55:14.159 So do you feel energy

from these rocks? 00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:15.039 Yes. 00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:15.920 Yeah. 00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:18.079 They feel alive to me. 00:55:18.800 --> 00:55:21.679 So would you say that they may have consciousness? 00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:31.280 I know it's a very philosophical question, but there are some philosophy branches that do believe that consciousness is in everything, including rocks. 00:55:33.199 --> 00:55:36.880 I've never thought about it, whether they have consciousness. 00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:43.840 But I probably don't under, you know, like I haven't thought about what is consciousness. 00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:46.559 There's energy that comes off of them. 00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:51.199 Um and they're very grounding. 00:55:51.360 --> 00:56:16.800 Um, like I have like granite and all sorts of rocks out in my yard, and I go and I walk on them barefoot because they're very grounding, and the feeling of rocks like granite, which came from fire, has a very different um like feel when I'm standing on them, versus a layered rock like a Goshen stone, which is you know from a bottom of an ancient ocean. 00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:23.840 It doesn't have like the gravity of a of a rock like a granite that came from fire. 00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:31.360 So I also feel so I guess I'm the more I talk about it, I'm like, oh yeah, maybe they they do have consciousness. 00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:41.519 I also feel that they are were witnesses to humanity for millions of years, right? 00:56:41.679 --> 00:56:47.840 They existed when we don't even know what was happening. 00:56:48.079 --> 00:56:58.400 Um so yes, I'm not ready to say consciousness, but the more I talk about it, it sounds like, you know, some type of consciousness. 00:56:59.119 --> 00:56:59.599 Interesting. 00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:15.440 Yeah, you you I I wouldn't say you're saying they're alive, but there is something to them that they absorb and they give off that is very palpable, that you you at least can truly sense. 00:57:15.760 --> 00:57:16.320 Yes. 00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:18.960 And there's and it's not always pleasant. 00:57:19.119 --> 00:57:24.880 There's, you know, there's a the Giza Plateau is where the pyramids are that most people know about. 00:57:25.119 --> 00:57:37.840 There's a pathway that runs between the largest pyramid and the medium-sized pyramid that I avoid because the energy coming off of that area is gives me a headache. 00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:41.599 Like I try to go around it instead of walk through it. 00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:49.360 And so I'm very aware of the energies of certain places, and a lot of it has to do with the rock. 00:57:49.440 --> 00:58:00.880 Because on the Giza Plateau, there's rocks that make up the pyramids, but there's also slabs of rocks that the pyramids are sitting on, which most people don't usually pay attention to. 00:58:01.119 --> 00:58:24.480 Um, and so a lot of these, like visiting ancient Egypt and ancient Greece, it's not just to go and snap the picture of like, oh, look at this and look at this, but it's to be with in these sites, in these sacred sites, and see are they uh communicating anything that I need to hear? 00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:37.039 And especially in Egypt, I get more of that because you're allowed to go into temples versus Greece where it's cordoned off and you can't go into most of the temples. 00:58:37.679 --> 00:58:44.320 But there's places in Egypt where you can just walk in and the temple speaks to you. 00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:45.920 Wow. 00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:47.840 Just wow. 00:58:49.360 --> 00:58:53.519 Do you use the Enneagram for family, for people you work with? 00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:55.840 Do you use it like do you use it everywhere? 00:58:56.239 --> 00:58:57.119 Everywhere. 00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:05.119 It's it's not it's so ingrained that it's not like, and now I'm going to use the Enneagram, right? 00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:08.559 Like there's like there's one example. 00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:21.199 I was talking to a client, me and my colleague, and we were trying to explain a specific uh tax planning thing that we were recommending that she do. 00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:26.719 And it was out of the ordinary because it was an out of the ordinary situation that she had. 00:59:27.119 --> 00:59:29.360 And so we're like, yeah, just do this. 00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:35.599 You know, it's like was guaranteed to work, and there's not a lot of things I can say are guaranteed to work. 00:59:35.840 --> 00:59:40.559 But because she had never heard it before, she was like, no, no, no. 00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:47.679 And she's a very smart woman, but we kept trying to reason with her, like, here, let me explain how this works. 00:59:47.840 --> 00:59:55.360 And in a moment of insight, I heard stop because her type is six and she was in anxiety. 00:59:55.440 --> 01:00:05.039 And there was nothing, nothing I could have explained or my colleague could have explained that would have gotten us to, oh yeah, this is a great idea. 01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:06.639 Let's go ahead and do it. 01:00:06.880 --> 01:00:10.719 And so, you know, and I said to my colleague, I'm like, nope, stop. 01:00:10.880 --> 01:00:14.480 Like, he's like, no, no, I just I'm like, nope, you're not gonna get through to her. 01:00:14.719 --> 01:00:19.679 Um and so, yeah, I use it at work all the time. 01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:24.480 It doesn't mean that people need to know that I'm using it at work, right? 01:00:24.559 --> 01:00:31.679 It's just part of how I understand and communicate with people, right? 01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:37.840 It's just another thing to know, you know, how we like, oh, are they visual communicators or auditory? 01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:48.159 But this is, I know something more about them when I can type them correctly, but I don't obviously say, you're an NA type six, so I'm gonna work with you this way. 01:00:48.320 --> 01:00:53.280 I just know how to work with her because you know,

it was interesting. 01:00:53.440 --> 01:00:54.960 I I was thinking about that. 01:00:55.119 --> 01:01:01.599 It's like, you know, like when I said the NATO six, don't change plans unexpectedly. 01:01:01.679 --> 01:01:03.119 And that's what we were doing. 01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:08.159 We were like, I know you've been doing this tax planning technique for however many years. 01:01:08.320 --> 01:01:15.360 We need to change it like this, because right now there was something that happened that said we needed to do it this way. 01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:18.320 So we were changing plans, right? 01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:37.840 And so, and then um another colleague um, and it was actually at the beginning of me studying the Enneagram, I had understood from my very little knowledge at that point that she was an Enneagram too, that she was on the point of Enneagram too. 01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:46.159 And the to-dos for her are appreciate my helpfulness, uh, ask me about myself, and let me know that you care. 01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:48.719 And this was kind of a new position for her. 01:01:48.800 --> 01:01:51.760 And she kept saying, I don't understand how to do this. 01:01:51.920 --> 01:01:53.440 You know, you better get somebody else. 01:01:53.599 --> 01:01:55.599 I might, you know, make a big mistake. 01:01:55.920 --> 01:02:07.840 And it was knowing that she was a two and communicating appreciation to her that she was able to relax and learn whatever new things that she needed to learn. 01:02:08.079 --> 01:02:21.679 So it's a very valuable tool, and it's not about manipulating, but it's about communicating to the other person in the way that they can hear it and it's valuable to them. 01:02:23.360 --> 01:02:24.320 Interesting. 01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:31.280 So, what you're saying is basically that you're using it as a framework for understanding yourself and others. 01:02:31.440 --> 01:02:45.519 And you don't necessarily sit down and kind of type everyone, but it helps you to guide the communication, the relationship, and how to navigate difficult situations sometimes. 01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:46.159 Right. 01:02:46.480 --> 01:03:01.280 And in a moment of clarity for myself, because I'm not saying I can always do this, is instead of, oh my God, that person is driving me crazy, I can stop and be like, wait a minute. 01:03:01.519 --> 01:03:04.159 No, they're not trying to drive me crazy. 01:03:04.320 --> 01:03:09.519 They're playing out a pattern I can see in a six or a four, right? 01:03:09.679 --> 01:03:16.400 Like, you know, you can, but when I say I can't do it always because I'm annoyed, right? 01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:26.239 Like, but when I said it's a tool of self-compassion and also compassion for others, um, that's what I meant. 01:03:26.480 --> 01:03:45.199 In fact, years ago, I was um at Krapallu, and you know how there's like the tables that you sit with everybody, and I was sitting with somebody, and I had had like lunch with him for a couple of days because you kind of sit at the same table with the same people sometimes. 01:03:45.519 --> 01:03:54.960 And in one of the days it came out uh that we were talking Enneagram, because somehow he knew the Enneagram, and so that was fun. 01:03:55.119 --> 01:04:01.679 And then I learned he was a Catholic priest, and I must have showed it on my face, and I'm like, and he's like, What? 01:04:01.760 --> 01:04:05.519 You don't think people like me, you know, you would find in places like this? 01:04:05.679 --> 01:04:12.000 And I'm like, Yeah, and I wouldn't think that you're as proficient in Enneagram as you are. 01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:16.880 Um, you know, that was my, you know, not understanding the whole picture. 01:04:17.119 --> 01:04:24.960 And he said, the Enneagram is critical for us because we live in community and we need to understand the other. 01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:27.519 And I'm like, oh, yeah. 01:04:27.760 --> 01:04:35.119 Um, you know, that's why I say it, it's such a rich tool. 01:04:35.199 --> 01:04:39.760 And the more I'm talking to you about it, I'm like, oh, I need to go study this. 01:04:39.920 --> 01:04:42.719 I need to, you know, re-engage with it. 01:04:44.400 --> 01:04:46.400 Where do people study about this? 01:04:46.559 --> 01:04:47.360 Where do you go? 01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:49.360 I mean, you said that you had various teachers. 01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:56.880 Is there like a one type of place that people go to, or it's more No, there's many, many places. 01:04:57.440 --> 01:05:00.559 I um am quite partial to Russ Hudson. 01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:02.559 I like his teaching approach. 01:05:02.719 --> 01:05:04.960 Um, I've been studying with him for years. 01:05:05.199 --> 01:05:13.039 If you go to his website, I think he does a lot of online teaching, and I think he does some things for the Shift Network. 01:05:13.280 --> 01:05:22.079 And then frequently there's um Enneagram Global Summits, and now there's like different flavors of Enneagram Global Summits. 01:05:22.320 --> 01:05:26.000 I just listened to one last year about the Enneagram and midlife. 01:05:26.079 --> 01:05:39.760 It was actually surprisingly, I don't know, somehow it really spoke to me because I don't know if I'm midlife, I'm maybe past midlife, I'm 62, but um, and so you just kind of start looking online, you know. 01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:45.440 Unlike when I started in 2008, there's so many online offerings. 01:05:45.599 --> 01:05:52.559 However, I think it's also very valuable if you get a chance to do like an in person workshop. 01:05:52.719 --> 01:05:55.840 Um, you know, if you really want to learn about this. 01:05:56.639 --> 01:05:59.760 Yeah, actually, one thing to keep in mind. 01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:12.639 When you're kind of endeavoring the first steps in studying the Enneagram, it's not about figuring out your number. 01:06:12.880 --> 01:06:36.719 Everything you learn about the Enneagram is going to help with your self-awareness of who you are, what

patterns you keep playing over and over, what things are hindering you, what things, if you could kind of get your arms around, would actually help you get to a next step in whatever your personal development goals are. 01:06:37.039 --> 01:06:39.360 And so have fun with it. 01:06:39.679 --> 01:06:41.519 Don't get kind of uptight. 01:06:41.679 --> 01:06:45.920 I'm a one, I'm a two, I'm a, you know, and just explore. 01:06:46.239 --> 01:06:56.480 And um yeah, so uh I'm excited for whoever out there is listening to this to uh for you to get started. 01:06:56.960 --> 01:06:59.280 I'm excited for myself to get started too. 01:07:01.519 --> 01:07:04.239 Are you ready for our lightning round of questions? 01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:06.719 Oh, okay, ready. 01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:09.199 All right. 01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:15.679 Um question number one: what is your favorite spiritual practice? 01:07:23.119 --> 01:07:25.360 Stillness and silence. 01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:27.920 How do you practice it? 01:07:30.079 --> 01:07:37.280 Um I sit in my Lena room, the one that we had to move to from to get here. 01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:46.719 Um I'm outside sitting on a rock or sitting and walking in a temple. 01:07:49.760 --> 01:07:50.880 Favorite rock. 01:07:52.559 --> 01:07:54.239 Oh, that's a hard one. 01:07:54.320 --> 01:07:56.400 I have so many favorite rocks. 01:07:56.719 --> 01:08:06.880 Um definitely granite and then um for something that's not a rock is um obsidian. 01:08:08.079 --> 01:08:10.000 It's a rock, but it's from volcano. 01:08:10.320 --> 01:08:25.279 It's uh it's glass, it's a black, um, shiny, very uh deep rock, and it cuts through all falsities and gives you the truth. 01:08:25.600 --> 01:08:29.920 Um, so I keep one actually on my desk in the corner. 01:08:30.800 --> 01:08:31.680 That's beautiful. 01:08:31.920 --> 01:08:34.560 Wasn't it also used uh for spears? 01:08:38.239 --> 01:08:38.479 Yep. 01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:47.520 And it was also sometimes used as a crystal ball to to s to you know peer into when it's polished, it's very shiny. 01:08:47.760 --> 01:08:49.439 Oh wow, did not know that. 01:08:49.760 --> 01:08:55.279 And it's also used to deflect kind of any negative energies coming your way. 01:08:56.239 --> 01:08:57.520 It absorbs it. 01:08:58.079 --> 01:08:59.680 Why granite then? 01:09:01.279 --> 01:09:07.199 Oh, you know, so many of the sacred places are made of granite. 01:09:07.359 --> 01:09:10.079 It's a very difficult, it's a very hard rock. 01:09:10.319 --> 01:09:17.920 And then I I'm very connected to the fire that created it, the element of fire that created it. 01:09:18.079 --> 01:09:22.159 So you get like earth, which is granite, and then fire together. 01:09:22.720 --> 01:09:23.359 Hmm. 01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:28.880 If you could travel into the future or the past, where would you choose? 01:09:29.119 --> 01:09:30.239 One or the other. 01:09:33.600 --> 01:09:34.880 And where would you go? 01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:48.560 Oh, I would go into the past during the height of the temples in Greece and Egypt and see them in their full glory, how they were meant to be. 01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:51.920 What would you want to see? 01:09:53.920 --> 01:10:12.720 I would want to see the plants, the colors, the smell, the air, um the aliveness of them, because what we're seeing now is rocks, you know, remnants of rocks. 01:10:13.039 --> 01:10:15.520 So you would want to really experience the energy of that. 01:10:16.079 --> 01:10:23.760 Yeah, the energy, the food, what was being served there, the music, the chanting. 01:10:23.920 --> 01:10:27.359 I'm imagining that's how it would have been. 01:10:28.479 --> 01:10:29.920 That's beautiful. 01:10:30.239 --> 01:10:31.520 It's really beautiful. 01:10:32.319 --> 01:10:36.239 Lena, thank you so much for being with us here on the Quantum Couch. 01:10:36.479 --> 01:10:40.640 Um, how can our listeners and viewers find you, find your work? 01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:59.119 Oh, well, if you I don't have an Enneagram website, but if you want any financial planning, um, you can go to my website, um, which is alenawealth.com, A-L-E-N-A-W-E-A-L-T-H dot com. 01:10:59.520 --> 01:11:09.760 Um, the way I bring this work into my professional work is I actually don't see it as, you know, two separate things. 01:11:10.000 --> 01:11:19.039 Um it informs everything that I do outside of my professional work, informs the work that I do in financial planning with clients. 01:11:19.439 --> 01:11:27.600 So And do the financial clients have to live in Massachusetts to see you or we have clients all over the country. 01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:28.479 Oh, wow. 01:11:28.720 --> 01:11:34.560 You're welcome to give me a call and we can talk and see if it's something that um I can help you with. 01:11:34.880 --> 01:11:36.000 That's awesome. 01:11:36.319 --> 01:11:38.399 Thank you so much for being here, Lena. 01:11:38.560 --> 01:11:39.600 I I love you. 01:11:39.760 --> 01:11:41.199 I love your energy. 01:11:41.760 --> 01:11:42.720 Thank you. 01:11:43.600 --> 01:11:44.239 Thank you. 01:11:44.479 --> 01:11:45.840 Thank you for the invitation. 01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:52.479 And this was my first podcast, so I'm excited to have completed it with you, Ina. 01:11:52.960 --> 01:12:01.920 The information in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 01:12:02.159 --> 01:12:05.760 Listening to this podcast does not create a physician-patient relationship with Dr. 01:12:05.840 --> 01:12:08.640 Ina Convoy or any guest on this podcast. 01:12:08.800 --> 01:12:15.520 Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. 01:12:15.760 --> 01:12:22.399 Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you heard on this podcast.