บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ What Actually Predicts Divorce, and What Women Really Want in a Partner — ft. James Sexton

--> 00:03:44.569 eventually just catastrophically lead to the failure. 73 00:03:45.810 --> 00:03:49.129 You have a great story about one of your clients 74 00:03:49.409 --> 00:03:51.949 and it involved granola. Do you know what I'm talking about? 75 00:03:51.969 --> 00:03:53.629 Can you, can you tell that story? 76 00:03:53.750 --> 00:03:54.050 Yeah. 77 00:03:54.090 --> 00:03:54.250 Yeah. 78 00:03:54.289 --> 00:03:56.199 I mean, you know, I, I, I talk about it 79 00:03:56.219 --> 00:03:58.560 in the book too, where I had a client, very 80 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:01.800 put together, beautiful young woman in her thirties. And, uh, 81 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:04.219 she was getting divorced, two young kids. He was successful 82 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:06.460 guy in finance. And, you know, you spend a lot 83 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:08.400 of time with people when, when you, you know, you 84 00:04:08.539 --> 00:04:10.060 go a lot of miles when you're their divorce lawyer 85 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:11.340 and you get to know them really well in a 86 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:13.400 very candid way. And I was just sitting outside of 87 00:04:13.419 --> 00:04:15.500 the courthouse with her and we were chatting. I was, 88 00:04:15.669 --> 00:04:18.310 I was drinking espresso on a lunch break. And, uh, 89 00:04:18.649 --> 00:04:20.269 I just said something along the lines of like, when 90 00:04:20.290 --> 00:04:23.180 did you realize that the relationship was over? And she 91 00:04:23.259 --> 00:04:25.319 told me a story about how there was granola, this 92 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:27.759 particular type of granola that she would put every morning 93 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:29.300 in her yogurt. And they only sold it at this 94 00:04:29.420 --> 00:04:31.560 one Whole Foods. And she said he used to just 95 00:04:31.620 --> 00:04:34.689 always like buy the granola for her. She never had 96 00:04:34.769 --> 00:04:36.410 asked for it. He didn't ask for like, you know, 97 00:04:36.430 --> 00:04:38.670 what Chris Williamson calls good boy points. You know, we 98 00:04:38.689 --> 00:04:40.949 do something for our significant other and we go, oh, babe, 99 00:04:40.970 --> 00:04:41.670 did you see what I did? 100 00:04:42.009 --> 00:04:42.649 It would just do it. 101 00:04:42.730 --> 00:04:44.410 And she said it made her always feel so loved. 102 00:04:44.449 --> 00:04:47.689 And At some point, she said, you know, the granola 103 00:04:47.730 --> 00:04:50.910 just ran out. And she kept waiting for him to 104 00:04:50.949 --> 00:04:54.610 refill it, and he never did. And she realized, you know, yeah, 105 00:04:54.629 --> 00:04:58.569 this thing's going down. And I said to her, was 106 00:04:58.610 --> 00:05:01.329 there anything like that on your end? And without missing 107 00:05:01.370 --> 00:05:03.850 a beat, she said, yeah, blowjobs. And I spit my 108 00:05:03.910 --> 00:05:08.449 espresso across the courthouse. And she said, yeah, when we 109 00:05:08.470 --> 00:05:10.649

were first dating, I was like, you know, like I 110 00:05:10.689 --> 00:05:12.980 would give them to them pretty often. Sometimes in the morning, 111 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:14.740 it set them off on the right tone for the day. 112 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:16.259 And she said that at some point, you know, maybe 113 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:18.720 when the kids came or life got in the way, 114 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:20.120 she said, I just got to the point where I 115 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:21.470 was like, oh, well, you know, I'll wait till tonight 116 00:05:21.529 --> 00:05:23.829 and we'll have sex and we'll both enjoy it. She's like, 117 00:05:23.850 --> 00:05:25.850 but I don't really know why I stopped. She's like, 118 00:05:25.870 --> 00:05:28.759 it wasn't like something happened. We both just and really it. 119 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:31.860 it stuck in my mind because there was this sense 120 00:05:32.060 --> 00:05:35.879 of like, there's this atrophy that starts to happen and 121 00:05:35.899 --> 00:05:38.339 it starts to create this weird spiral where it's. 122 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:40.379 Like, well, I don't owe you that. Well, I don't 123 00:05:40.459 --> 00:05:41.170 owe you this. 124 00:05:41.250 --> 00:05:43.629 And you know, what's interesting to me about that as 125 00:05:43.670 --> 00:05:46.370 a divorce lawyer is I see the effect of it. But, 126 00:05:46.550 --> 00:05:48.610 but then in this work I do in the relationship space, 127 00:05:48.649 --> 00:05:50.670 I find myself thinking, well, you could kind of reverse 128 00:05:50.730 --> 00:05:52.850 that spiral, which is, I don't have to send a 129 00:05:52.889 --> 00:05:54.430 text in the middle of the day saying, Hey babe, 130 00:05:54.449 --> 00:05:56.350 I was thinking of you or, leave a note in 131 00:05:56.389 --> 00:05:57.970 the morning that says like, hey, I had a lot 132 00:05:57.990 --> 00:05:59.490 of fun watching a movie on the couch with you 133 00:05:59.509 --> 00:06:01.370 last night. I married the prettiest girl in the world. 134 00:06:02.170 --> 00:06:04.920 But it's nice to do that. It doesn't cost anything. 135 00:06:04.980 --> 00:06:08.060 It takes 30 seconds. And maybe it reversed because what, 136 00:06:08.100 --> 00:06:09.500 you know, I said to her, what came first, the 137 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:11.860 chicken or the egg? Was it the granola or the blowjobs? 138 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.639 What ran out first? And she really couldn't tell me. 139 00:06:14.779 --> 00:06:16.399 And so I think there's a lesson there. 140 00:06:17.910 --> 00:06:23.250 Yeah, the research I've seen on an empirical level from 141 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:28.019 John Gottman's Love Lab work at the University of Washington 142 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:32.329 at UW, is that contempt is a very strong indicator 143 00:06:32.389 --> 00:06:35.850 of divorce. And when you're out with a couple and 144 00:06:36.170 --> 00:06:38.910 one is rolling their eyes or just finds everything their 145 00:06:38.949 --> 00:06:42.550 partner's saying to be, they can't hide their disgust. 146 00:06:42.910 --> 00:06:45.740 Yeah, I've always said the most dangerous phrase for me, 147 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:48.980 the biggest predictor of a divorce is when I hear 148 00:06:49.100 --> 00:06:52.060 someone respond to their spouse with the following. 149 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:52.839 What? 150 00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:57.339 Like, what? Like just that, that contemptuous, what are you 151 00:06:57.459 --> 00:06:57.920 on about? 152 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.019 And it's fascinating because we all, you know, like you said, 153 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:03.100 you sit down sometimes with couples or you go out 154 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:06.430 with couples and you can just feel on people, you know, 155 00:07:06.490 --> 00:07:09.990 when there's this sense of like disrespect or disconnection. 156 00:07:10.430 --> 00:07:12.439 But what's interesting is you can also reverse it. 157 00:07:12.529 --> 00:07:14.269 You know, when you're out to dinner with that couple, 158 00:07:14.810 --> 00:07:16.129 all you have to do is say to one of them, 159 00:07:16.170 --> 00:07:17.949 so tell me about when you guys met, how'd you 160 00:07:17.990 --> 00:07:18.350 guys meet? 161 00:07:19.259 --> 00:07:21.279 And you can actually see. 162 00:07:21.019 --> 00:07:23.639 Like a softening happen when they're telling that story because 163 00:07:23.660 --> 00:07:25.959 they go back in time to that place where there 164 00:07:25.980 --> 00:07:29.730 was still this abundance of optimism and connection. So a 165 00:07:29.790 --> 00:07:32.110 lot of my work is really about, you know, as 166 00:07:32.170 --> 00:07:34.470 a divorce lawyer for 25 years in the trenches on 167 00:07:34.490 --> 00:07:37.089 these things, like I see how it catastrophically fails. And 168 00:07:37.129 --> 00:07:39.329 if you want to figure out how to keep something together, 169 00:07:39.709 --> 00:07:40.649 like if you want to figure out how to keep 170 00:07:40.689 --> 00:07:42.449 your car together, you don't talk to a new car dealer. 171 00:07:42.470 --> 00:07:44.410 You talk to a mechanic who's seen him break down, 172 00:07:44.509 --> 00:07:46.790 you know? So that's how I try to view this 173 00:07:46.870 --> 00:07:49.079 is look, whether you like it or not, This is 174 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:51.139 just what's sitting across from me in a courtroom and 175 00:07:51.180 --> 00:07:51.779 in an office. 176 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:54.980 The other factor, and it's much more uncomfortable to talk 177 00:07:55.040 --> 00:07:59.920 about because it's not aspirational and it just has sexist overtones, 178 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:02.639 but I think there's data to back this up. What 179 00:08:02.740 --> 00:08:05.220 I have found is a pretty strong predictor of divorce 180 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:13.560 is economics, specifically when the man in the relationship stops 181 00:08:13.620 --> 00:08:16.259 making money or

is making less money than the woman. 182 00:08:17.250 --> 00:08:21.149 And it's uncomfortable to talk about, but personally, that's where 183 00:08:21.310 --> 00:08:26.029 I have found. And also, the likelihood of divorce doubles 184 00:08:26.209 --> 00:08:28.230 when the woman starts making more money than the man. 185 00:08:28.810 --> 00:08:31.069 And it's not something we like to talk about because 186 00:08:32.340 --> 00:08:38.059 it positions women in an uncomfortable light. I would also 187 00:08:38.139 --> 00:08:40.740 argue that what we're missing in that data set is 188 00:08:40.779 --> 00:08:44.299 that I think men, when they lose their economic stability, 189 00:08:46.110 --> 00:08:52.649 they become insecure and, quite frankly, unproductive in the relationship. 190 00:08:52.870 --> 00:08:56.110 I wouldn't even say counterproductive in the relationship. They become 191 00:08:56.190 --> 00:09:01.139 antagonistic to the relationship. And resentful. And in other words, 192 00:09:01.220 --> 00:09:03.120 it's not just a woman saying, you're no longer the 193 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.080 baller you where I'm out. It's just the economic strain, 194 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:10.419 the lack of self-esteem on the man's part creates real 195 00:09:10.570 --> 00:09:11.570 agita in the relationship. 196 00:09:11.610 --> 00:09:13.090 Your thoughts, James? Yeah, 100%. 197 00:09:13.090 --> 00:09:15.330 I mean, I see it all the time. I see 198 00:09:15.370 --> 00:09:18.049 it from both sides because I represent husbands, I represent wives. 199 00:09:19.649 --> 00:09:23.620 What it more often is, is the cascading effect of 200 00:09:23.799 --> 00:09:27.259 a man loses his job, he feels emasculated. He feels like, 201 00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:30.580 you know, his role as a provider, again, even if 202 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:33.159 both of them are working people, both of them are successful, 203 00:09:33.220 --> 00:09:35.600 even if she makes more money than him, when there 204 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:39.649 is that loss or that demotion or some disgrace associated 205 00:09:39.690 --> 00:09:42.960 with work, There's this sense of self that gets taken 206 00:09:43.019 --> 00:09:45.860 away from a man, you know, and that causes him 207 00:09:45.980 --> 00:09:49.559 to have a kind of self-hate that then radiates at 208 00:09:49.620 --> 00:09:52.690 everyone around him. Substance use issues start to kick up. 209 00:09:52.730 --> 00:09:54.509 He starts to drink a little bit more. He starts 210 00:09:54.529 --> 00:09:56.669 to smoke a little more, whatever it might be. And 211 00:09:56.730 --> 00:09:59.490 then there's this effect. And again, it's super easy in 212 00:09:59.529 --> 00:10:01.889 this world. we've created of boys versus girls on the 213 00:10:01.990 --> 00:10:04.740 algorithm to say, oh, well, this is a man being 214 00:10:04.789 --> 00:10:07.240 insecure over his woman, or this is a woman cashing 215 00:10:07.259 --> 00:10:09.519 her chips out at

the casino because now he's not 216 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:12.340 making money anymore. But really what it is, is what 217 00:10:12.379 --> 00:10:14.519 did the job loss, what were the second order effects 218 00:10:14.580 --> 00:10:17.070 of that on his internal life? and the way that 219 00:10:17.129 --> 00:10:19.539 he shows up in the relationship and how he feels 220 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:22.519 about himself. I see it all the time. And I've represented, 221 00:10:22.539 --> 00:10:25.460 like I said, both sides of that equation. And it's 222 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:28.279 a really heartbreaking thing to see because, you know, there 223 00:10:28.299 --> 00:10:31.539 are so many politicians on the right in particular that 224 00:10:31.610 --> 00:10:33.909 talk so much about the sanctity of marriage and wanting 225 00:10:33.929 --> 00:10:36.929 to preserve and protect marriage. And yet, when we look 226 00:10:36.950 --> 00:10:40.210 at the statistics that talk about marriage does better when 227 00:10:40.330 --> 00:10:43.149 people have, you know, economic stability and can meet their 228 00:10:43.190 --> 00:10:45.600 basic needs, they're not in distress. People who have a 229 00:10:45.659 --> 00:10:49.019 bachelor's degree or higher have lower divorce rates. When you 230 00:10:49.059 --> 00:10:51.559 start to point these things out and say, hey, maybe 231 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:55.990 creating conditions where there's catastrophic job loss and putting massive 232 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:58.950 strain on marriages might be more worth your attention than 233 00:10:59.210 --> 00:11:02.210 griping about no-fault divorce and how it's ruining the world. 234 00:11:02.269 --> 00:11:05.549 So there are real solutions to these problems, but they're 235 00:11:05.570 --> 00:11:07.809 part of a serious discourse as opposed to like the 236 00:11:07.830 --> 00:11:10.820 boy versus girl thing that works so well. I've also 237 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:16.210 thought that in a very, I don't know, course, I 238 00:11:16.230 --> 00:11:19.190 think all relationships are a certain form of transaction. It's 239 00:11:19.210 --> 00:11:20.809 just a question of the currency and the cadence. 240 00:11:21.870 --> 00:11:25.340 And last year, family, I would argue, there's a really 241 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:28.519 healthy level of what I'll call irrational loyalty within families. 242 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:30.340 And I actually think that's important for the survival of 243 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:33.059 the species. I describe family as people you otherwise wouldn't 244 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:37.289 choose to hang out with. But what I saw— That's 245 00:11:37.309 --> 00:11:39.970 because we both survived having teenage sons. That's probably why. 246 00:11:40.009 --> 00:11:42.450 There you go. There's no way I'm getting a return there. 247 00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:43.309 No way. 248 00:11:43.590 --> 00:11:44.929 They're never going to be up at 2 a.m. 249 00:11:44.950 --> 00:11:46.509 Worried about me. I just know it. 250 00:11:46.789 --> 00:11:48.740 There's no way the home they're going to put me 251 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:50.700 in is going to cost me, cost them more than 252 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:51.460 UVA has cost me this year. 253 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:52.940 No, Jell-O has never cost that much. 254 00:11:52.980 --> 00:11:53.639 Yeah, that's right. 255 00:11:54.940 --> 00:11:57.659 But my dad was a case study in marriage and divorce, 256 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:00.419 married and divorced four times, as far as we know. 257 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:04.279 And his third marriage, a really nice woman, Linda, first 258 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.399 person who ever spoiled me. But my dad was never 259 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:10.019 very engaged. Quite frankly, he was never very nice. 260 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:11.429 Yeah. 261 00:12:11.980 --> 00:12:14.120 Didn't bring a lot of emotional or domestic support to 262 00:12:14.139 --> 00:12:17.200 the relationship, but he was a good provider. And then 263 00:12:17.220 --> 00:12:21.740 when he stopped being a provider, and I hope Linda 264 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:23.600 doesn't take too much offense to this because I don't 265 00:12:23.620 --> 00:12:26.279 mean it as a criticism, I think she did the 266 00:12:26.330 --> 00:12:29.210 math and said, all right, if you're no longer bringing 267 00:12:29.250 --> 00:12:31.990 in money and you're no longer really present in the 268 00:12:32.029 --> 00:12:35.830 relationship and you're not picking up slack with domestic and 269 00:12:35.850 --> 00:12:39.649 emotional labor, I'm out. And I think a lot of 270 00:12:39.690 --> 00:12:43.360 men quite frankly, don't when they lose their economic vitality 271 00:12:43.419 --> 00:12:46.179 or it reduces. I think a lot of women wake 272 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:48.679 up and say, OK, I'm paying the bills and I'm 273 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:51.340 fucking doing the dishes and I'm the one picking up 274 00:12:51.379 --> 00:12:51.860 the kids. 275 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:55.279 There's a sense that men have, too, of purpose in 276 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.500 the workplace that very often, you know, over time when 277 00:12:58.539 --> 00:13:00.289 that I mean, I've had clients who, you know, a 278 00:13:00.309 --> 00:13:03.830 person retires and their spouse, you know, literally comes in 279 00:13:03.870 --> 00:13:05.370 and says, look, I said for better or for worse, 280 00:13:05.429 --> 00:13:08.090 I didn't say for lunch. Like, I did not plan 281 00:13:08.129 --> 00:13:10.210 on having this person around. I have a routine, I 282 00:13:10.250 --> 00:13:12.210 have a life, and now this person's sort of doddering 283 00:13:12.269 --> 00:13:15.389 around without direction because they were, you know, spending so 284 00:13:15.429 --> 00:13:18.000 much of their time and their emotional and physical bandwidth 285 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:21.740 on work, and now that's gone. The most successful

retired 286 00:13:21.779 --> 00:13:25.240 people are retired people who, you know, just replace work 287 00:13:25.419 --> 00:13:28.340 with some other volunteering or a church or whatever it 288 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:30.960 might be. So I think that there is a clear, 289 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:33.519 in every part of our lives, there's a sense of, like, 290 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:36.460 do you have a place to go, a thing to do, 291 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:39.159 and something to be passionate about. And I think when 292 00:13:39.220 --> 00:13:41.639 we lose that, we lose a big piece of our 293 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:44.659 inner compass. And I think when we flail in our 294 00:13:44.700 --> 00:13:47.799 sense of self, how can we not flail in relationship? 295 00:13:47.860 --> 00:13:49.539 I mean, a relationship is the you, the me, and 296 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:51.679 the we. So if the you or the me starts 297 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.460 falling apart, how is the we supposed to hold it together? 298 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:57.320 Yeah, let's, I thought that was great. Let's move on 299 00:13:57.340 --> 00:13:59.860 to question number two, which also comes from Instagram. Miss 300 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:04.669 V Lady asks, Modern relationships often promote equality, but attraction 301 00:14:04.769 --> 00:14:08.549 frequently depends on differences in power, competence, or polarity. How 302 00:14:08.590 --> 00:14:11.610 do couples preserve both fairness and desire over decades without 303 00:14:11.710 --> 00:14:13.049 one undermining the other? 304 00:14:13.529 --> 00:14:13.809 James? 305 00:14:14.210 --> 00:14:16.720 You know, I tend to think we need to be 306 00:14:16.750 --> 00:14:19.909 thinking about equity and not equality. I think fairness is 307 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:22.639 what's important. I mean, I've said before when I talk 308 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:26.019 about relationships, look, if I love to cook and you 309 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:30.350 don't like to cook, The school of thought that says, well, 310 00:14:30.370 --> 00:14:32.649 we should do 50-50 on the cooking. Okay, so you 311 00:14:32.690 --> 00:14:35.070 should spend half the time doing something you don't enjoy 312 00:14:35.110 --> 00:14:37.669 and I should lose half the time doing something I enjoy. 313 00:14:38.049 --> 00:14:40.929 It doesn't make any sense. But that being said, you 314 00:14:40.950 --> 00:14:43.009 should know how to cook a little bit. Like I'm 315 00:14:43.029 --> 00:14:44.850 going to be away at some point and you need 316 00:14:44.870 --> 00:14:45.899 to like do something. 317 00:14:45.649 --> 00:14:47.919 Other than DoorDash. Same thing with finances. 318 00:14:47.980 --> 00:14:49.480 You know, I have tons of clients who come in 319 00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:52.100 and they just know absolutely nothing about the marital finances 320 00:14:52.139 --> 00:14:55.190 because the other person in the relationship you know, enjoy 321 00:14:55.250 --> 00:14:58.210 doing the investing and balancing the books and keeping eye 322 00:14:58.269 --> 00:14:58.629 on things. 323 00:14:59.009 --> 00:15:01.490 So I always tell clients and I always tell friends, look, 324 00:15:01.610 --> 00:15:03.070 you know, everybody should know. 325 00:15:03.009 --> 00:15:06.529 How to do everything a little bit, but you should 326 00:15:06.549 --> 00:15:09.490 be leaning into the fact that you don't marry yourself, 327 00:15:09.769 --> 00:15:12.669 you know, like Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, each one 328 00:15:12.710 --> 00:15:15.169 of them without the other, without Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs 329 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:17.860 would have been, you know, a very, a guy with 330 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:20.000 a lot of vision and he couldn't really accomplish very much. 331 00:15:20.059 --> 00:15:22.970 And without, you know, Steve Wozniak, you know, Steve, I'm sorry, 332 00:15:22.990 --> 00:15:24.990 without Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak would have just been a 333 00:15:25.029 --> 00:15:27.730 really talented software engineer who didn't really know how to 334 00:15:27.769 --> 00:15:29.129 have vision of anything. 335 00:15:29.389 --> 00:15:30.590 Together, they changed the world. 336 00:15:30.950 --> 00:15:33.980 I think the best couples, whether it's, you know, John 337 00:15:34.029 --> 00:15:37.360 and Paul, or whether it's, you know, the Jobs and 338 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:40.460 Wozniak combination, like, I think the best couples, we have 339 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:44.840 complementary sets of skills, we have complementary pathologies in terms 340 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:48.419 of where our insecurities lie and how we can complement 341 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:51.730 those for each other. But the best thing to do, obviously, 342 00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:53.889 is to be able to like say that quiet part 343 00:15:53.990 --> 00:15:56.889 out loud. We're really taught in this culture, I think 344 00:15:57.029 --> 00:15:59.309 now in this moment that we're in that like, well, 345 00:15:59.389 --> 00:16:01.669 why do you like that? And why do you feel 346 00:16:01.730 --> 00:16:04.159 that way? Look, you feel how you feel, you know, 347 00:16:04.220 --> 00:16:06.000 and by sheer power of will, if you think you're 348 00:16:06.019 --> 00:16:07.980 going to change your feelings or your desires, that's as 349 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:10.389 insane as thinking you can pray the gay away. Like 350 00:16:10.429 --> 00:16:12.629 it just doesn't work. Like the desire we have is 351 00:16:12.669 --> 00:16:16.710 the desire we have. And it's rooted in culture, biology, 352 00:16:17.110 --> 00:16:20.350 you know, so many things that for us to pretend 353 00:16:20.389 --> 00:16:22.210 that we're going to be able to just modify it 354 00:16:22.269 --> 00:16:25.490 based on, you know, being more evolved in the culture, 355 00:16:25.750 --> 00:16:28.129 I think it's foolish. We can be the most girl 356 00:16:28.149 --> 00:16:30.909 boss culture

in the world, but look at Fifty Shades 357 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:34.059 of Grey, look at Twilight, look at all romance novels 358 00:16:34.179 --> 00:16:36.220 out there, look at all of the film that's out there. 359 00:16:36.730 --> 00:16:42.490 It's usually some archetypal, big, bold, strong, dominant guy who's 360 00:16:42.549 --> 00:16:46.090 still the hero. Of course, he has an emotional vocabulary now, 361 00:16:46.409 --> 00:16:49.570 but it's still that kind of an archetype. And again, 362 00:16:49.669 --> 00:16:51.690 it's speaking to something in us. And I don't think, 363 00:16:51.769 --> 00:16:55.070 I think feminism and the idea of liberation from the 364 00:16:55.129 --> 00:16:57.490 rigidity of gender roles was there to serve men and 365 00:16:57.570 --> 00:17:01.820 women without, you know, allowing us to access, you know, 366 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:04.940 the real volume that's contained in us and letting us 367 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:07.440 be who we really are without those restrictions, I think 368 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:09.000 in relationship, you got to do the same thing. 369 00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:10.220 Yeah. 370 00:17:10.259 --> 00:17:13.690 It's so, and again, I'll be accused of being a 371 00:17:13.690 --> 00:17:15.670 Gen X boomer here and out of touch and that, 372 00:17:15.789 --> 00:17:18.170 and some of that might be true, but what I 373 00:17:18.190 --> 00:17:22.730 have found is that TikTok and Instagram and most podcasts 374 00:17:22.769 --> 00:17:26.759 are lying to you about what women want in a man. 375 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:31.539 I do think that there is absolutely a recognition and 376 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:34.539 an appreciation for men who are willing to be vulnerable, 377 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.369 more in touch with their feelings. And generally speaking, women 378 00:17:37.380 --> 00:17:39.890 have leveled up and they're demanding that men bring more 379 00:17:39.910 --> 00:17:42.509 to the table. It's just a marketplace, right? If all 380 00:17:42.529 --> 00:17:46.130 of a sudden men just got much better looking and 381 00:17:47.029 --> 00:17:53.220 much more successful and interesting, they would want higher caliber mates. 382 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:59.500 You know, if the marketplace of Ford's you with economic independence, 383 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:02.200 you're not economically indentured to someone, then you might think, well, 384 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:04.609 maybe being alone is a better, is actually a pretty 385 00:18:04.619 --> 00:18:06.930 good plan B. So the market has shifted and men 386 00:18:06.970 --> 00:18:10.670 have to adjust to that. Having said that, I have 387 00:18:10.710 --> 00:18:12.529 found this notion that if you were to build the 388 00:18:12.549 --> 00:18:15.869 perfect man, according to social media, it would be this 389 00:18:15.930 --> 00:18:21.549 guy who's working on himself, very sensitive, listens all the time. 390 00:18:22.890 --> 00:18:26.589 That's called a friend. That's called your gay best friend. 391 00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:29.839 And I don't think that's the guy women want to 392 00:18:29.900 --> 00:18:30.619 have sex with. 393 00:18:31.019 --> 00:18:31.559 I'm sorry. 394 00:18:31.619 --> 00:18:35.160 I think things have changed, but I still think there 395 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:38.369 is a, I don't know if a lack of a 396 00:18:38.369 --> 00:18:43.329 better term, a masculine male energy that regardless of what 397 00:18:43.410 --> 00:18:47.589 women claim to say in their TikToks or on social 398 00:18:47.630 --> 00:18:51.460 media is not who women want to mate with. 399 00:18:52.299 --> 00:18:55.109 Well, I think who we claim we're attracted to and 400 00:18:55.250 --> 00:18:58.339 who we're attracted to may very often be different things. 401 00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:00.710 I think You and I are of the same generation. 402 00:19:00.809 --> 00:19:02.849 So we had two choices growing up. We could be 403 00:19:02.869 --> 00:19:05.569 Clint Eastwood or Richard Simmons. Those were your two choices. 404 00:19:05.890 --> 00:19:06.849 There was nothing in between. 405 00:19:06.869 --> 00:19:08.009 Nothing in between. 406 00:19:08.509 --> 00:19:10.069 And that was kind of our two choices. 407 00:19:10.269 --> 00:19:13.269 And so I feel like now, you know, raising sons 408 00:19:13.309 --> 00:19:15.569 who are 26 and 28, I see that they have 409 00:19:15.589 --> 00:19:17.950 a broader emotional palette to choose from, which is amazing. 410 00:19:18.410 --> 00:19:20.529 But I still think the truth is the truth. And 411 00:19:20.549 --> 00:19:21.990 it was true of my father. And it's true of 412 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:23.779 my generation. And it's true of my sons. And I 413 00:19:23.819 --> 00:19:26.180 suspect it'll be true of their sons, which is that 414 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.059 every girl wants a bad boy who's only good for her. 415 00:19:29.529 --> 00:19:31.650 And every man wants a good girl who's only bad 416 00:19:31.690 --> 00:19:32.049 for him. 417 00:19:32.509 --> 00:19:33.029 And that's it. 418 00:19:33.230 --> 00:19:35.490 And that's always been, and I think it will always be, 419 00:19:35.630 --> 00:19:38.309 because I think this is something about the human creature. 420 00:19:38.690 --> 00:19:43.549 In heterosexual relationship dynamics, that's just an archetype that feeds 421 00:19:43.630 --> 00:19:45.990 for all of us. And it's been very successful in 422 00:19:46.029 --> 00:19:48.509 the dating marketplace. But I think you're right. We've now 423 00:19:48.609 --> 00:19:54.059 created this prodigious amalgam of traits that are just totally 424 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:58.359 disconnected from reality because we want someone who's a billionaire 425 00:19:58.420 --> 00:20:00.609 but also has an abundance of free time and isn't 426 00:20:00.700 --> 00:20:03.589 obsessed with work but also is incredibly physically healthy but 427 00:20:03.690 --> 00:20:05.750 also knows how to

have fun and be laid back 428 00:20:05.809 --> 00:20:08.549 and eat whatever and be decadent. These are like all 429 00:20:08.750 --> 00:20:11.589 contrary things and trying to find this perfect union of 430 00:20:11.630 --> 00:20:13.869 contrary things is absolutely bananas. 431 00:20:14.869 --> 00:20:21.259 Literally recently, I've had three women approach me and say, 432 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:23.700 do you have any single friends? These are very progressive, 433 00:20:23.740 --> 00:20:25.880 impressive women. And then they'll say under the breath as 434 00:20:25.940 --> 00:20:28.240 if it's embarrassing. They're like, and this might surprise you, 435 00:20:28.259 --> 00:20:30.200 but I like kind of like a more manly man. 436 00:20:30.740 --> 00:20:32.650 I'm like, yeah, no shit. That's called being a woman. 437 00:20:33.069 --> 00:20:35.809 And it's nothing to be, that doesn't mean, it doesn't 438 00:20:35.829 --> 00:20:39.220 mean the man can't be emotionally sensitive and vulnerable, but 439 00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:42.079 they say it as if it's like they're almost a 440 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:44.460 little bit embarrassed by it. The other, and I realize 441 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.269 you're not a therapist, you're a lawyer, but most of 442 00:20:47.329 --> 00:20:49.849 my friends, and I don't know if this is generational, 443 00:20:50.009 --> 00:20:52.950 most of my friends kind of fit into the stereotypical 444 00:20:52.970 --> 00:20:55.849 motive that the guy is mostly responsible for the economics 445 00:20:56.049 --> 00:20:59.269 of the household and the woman is responsible for the 446 00:20:59.769 --> 00:21:02.940 kind of emotional and domestic labor. That is the vast 447 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.960 majority of my friends, to varying degrees. There are some exceptions, 448 00:21:06.019 --> 00:21:11.299 but 80%, 90%. And that's what guys, I don't care 449 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:13.460 what they say, that didn't happen by accident. That's what 450 00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:15.309 the guy wanted. That's what the woman wanted. That's what 451 00:21:15.329 --> 00:21:17.650 the guy was attracted to. He was attracted to someone 452 00:21:17.670 --> 00:21:20.829 who would be really impressive in the relationship and at 453 00:21:20.869 --> 00:21:22.930 home and a good mother and all that. And I 454 00:21:22.950 --> 00:21:24.170 don't know if it's because I was raised by a 455 00:21:24.190 --> 00:21:25.730 single mother that always worked. 456 00:21:25.950 --> 00:21:26.549 We had no choice. 457 00:21:26.630 --> 00:21:29.210 My mom was out of the house before I was 458 00:21:29.269 --> 00:21:31.130 even up and home late because she had to work. 459 00:21:32.490 --> 00:21:38.170 And I have always, my ex-wife was an investment banker, 460 00:21:38.289 --> 00:21:42.029 and then the COO of e-commerce companies worked her ass off. 461 00:21:42.910 --> 00:21:46.059 My longest-term relationship out of marriage was with a surgeon. 462 00:21:46.079 -->

00:21:49.400 And then my current partner worked at Goldman Sachs. 463 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.599 I have always been really drawn. 464 00:21:52.619 --> 00:22:00.119 Not for economic reasons, but professionally impressive women have always 465 00:22:00.140 --> 00:22:03.029 flicked my back. That's just really sexy to me. 466 00:22:03.069 --> 00:22:05.309 Yeah, but it's not the economics, like you said. I 467 00:22:05.369 --> 00:22:07.809 think it's the same thing for men. I just find 468 00:22:07.849 --> 00:22:10.609 it a turn on. I find impressive, professionally impressive women. 469 00:22:11.029 --> 00:22:13.230 I want to have sex with them. I find that impressive. 470 00:22:13.309 --> 00:22:15.730 Well, and also what's underneath it, you know, because I 471 00:22:15.769 --> 00:22:16.490 have a buddy. 472 00:22:18.029 --> 00:22:19.910 Who was, I was talking to a friend of mine 473 00:22:20.210 --> 00:22:22.740 and he said, women like to date men with beards. 474 00:22:22.819 --> 00:22:24.579 And I said, well, yeah, of course women like beards. 475 00:22:24.619 --> 00:22:26.400 You know, I got the clean shaven thing going, but I, 476 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:27.680 you know, you got the like, oops, I didn't know 477 00:22:27.700 --> 00:22:28.609 I was sexy stubble. 478 00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:29.430 It happens. 479 00:22:29.490 --> 00:22:31.890 It's a thing women like, I get it. But the 480 00:22:31.950 --> 00:22:33.990 truth is, is that there's something underneath that. And my 481 00:22:34.009 --> 00:22:35.269 friend said to me, you know, the thing that's nice 482 00:22:35.309 --> 00:22:36.549 about a guy with a beard is it shows he 483 00:22:36.569 --> 00:22:39.390 has patience. Because in order to grow a proper beard, 484 00:22:39.410 --> 00:22:41.349 you have to have a little bit of patience. And 485 00:22:41.369 --> 00:22:44.130 I've always thought that about money and economic success, unless 486 00:22:44.170 --> 00:22:47.670 it's inherited wealth. The reality is, is what I think 487 00:22:47.730 --> 00:22:50.210 a lot of people find attractive about a person who's 488 00:22:50.410 --> 00:22:53.930 successful and competent in the workplace or who's been successful 489 00:22:53.990 --> 00:22:56.569 in the game of money is it says something about 490 00:22:56.589 --> 00:23:00.130 their tenacity. It says something about their drive, their focus. 491 00:23:00.670 --> 00:23:05.170 And how incredibly appealing is it to think about that drive, 492 00:23:05.210 --> 00:23:09.180 that focus, that determination, that tenacity being pointed at you 493 00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:13.859 and at your desire, your pleasure, your happiness, your goals together. 494 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:13.940 As a couple. 495 00:23:14.269 --> 00:23:17.509 When someone's successful economically, in theory, they're saying, hey, I 496 00:23:17.549 --> 00:23:19.849 can set a goal and I can trade what I 497 00:23:19.890 --> 00:23:22.009 want now for what I want most. Those are the

498 00:23:22.069 --> 00:23:23.970 traits we want in a partner. So it makes sense 499 00:23:24.009 --> 00:23:25.430 to me that these are the things people want. 500 00:23:26.329 --> 00:23:30.210 Yeah, that really resonates because I've read research that says 501 00:23:30.809 --> 00:23:34.470 women aren't physically or optically attracted to a guy with 502 00:23:34.509 --> 00:23:36.990 big pecs and big biceps. What they're attracted to is 503 00:23:37.049 --> 00:23:39.950 a guy who clearly has discipline, shows up, and can 504 00:23:39.990 --> 00:23:42.960 commit to something because those types of attributes... We'll make 505 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:46.740 that person a good partner. All right. Let's take a 506 00:23:46.789 --> 00:23:48.450 quick break. We'll be back in a minute. 507 00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:56.299 Hi, everyone. 508 00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:57.119 I'm Kara Swisher. 509 00:23:57.339 --> 00:23:58.240 And I'm Scott Galloway. 510 00:23:58.609 --> 00:24:00.529 Twice a week, we get together on Pivot to sort 511 00:24:00.569 --> 00:24:03.140 through the biggest stories in tech, business, and politics. And 512 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.059 we're taking the show back on the road for a 513 00:24:05.140 --> 00:24:06.579 live tour in November. 514 00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:09.980 So we'll bring hot takes, I'll bring the insight, and 515 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:11.140 the dick jokes. 516 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.519 That Kara will try, keyword is try, to keep me 517 00:24:13.819 --> 00:24:14.319 in check. 518 00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:18.470 You'll get to see her hit me in person, live. 519 00:24:19.009 --> 00:24:19.450 I'll do it. 520 00:24:19.789 --> 00:24:20.950 If someone has to do it. 521 00:24:21.250 --> 00:24:24.450 We'll cover AI, whatever chaos Washington has cooked up that week, 522 00:24:24.789 --> 00:24:26.670 and every billionaire misbehaving. 523 00:24:27.190 --> 00:24:27.690 That's all of them. 524 00:24:28.150 --> 00:24:30.289 And you'll also get to participate in audience Q & A. 525 00:24:30.329 --> 00:24:33.089 So bring your best questions. Scott will probably answer ones 526 00:24:33.130 --> 00:24:35.890 you didn't ask. We also have secret special guests, which 527 00:24:35.930 --> 00:24:41.490 you'll enjoy for every city. Get tickets at PivotTour.com. That's PivotTour.com. 528 00:24:41.829 --> 00:24:44.589 We are selling out, so don't wait. And we look 529 00:24:44.609 --> 00:24:45.190 forward to seeing you. 530 00:24:48.289 --> 00:24:49.829 Music can give us goosebumps. 531 00:24:50.369 --> 00:24:53.430 It makes me feel as if I have my hand 532 00:24:53.730 --> 00:24:54.869 on the electric line. 533 00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:58.400 It can make us cry. It's like a magical spell. 534 00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:00.460 It can even make us move. 535 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.039 The part of the brain that you'd use to plan 536 00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:08.029 movement is also active when you're listening to music with 537 00:25:08.069 --> 00:25:08.349 a beat. 538 00:25:09.630 --> 00:25:13.349 This week on Unexplainable, how does music do this to us? 539 00:25:14.170 --> 00:25:17.089 I talked to Sylvan Esso's Amelia Meath and a scientist 540 00:25:17.150 --> 00:25:19.109 who studies music cognition to find out. 541 00:25:19.910 --> 00:25:21.390 Follow Unexplainable wherever you listen. 542 00:25:24.809 --> 00:25:26.950 We're just about one month out from the midterm elections 543 00:25:27.019 --> 00:25:30.299 in these United States. And despite all the gerrymandering and 544 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:34.180 voting restrictions, legal challenges and personnel shakeups, it looks like 545 00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:37.759 the Democrats are going to flip the House of Representatives. 546 00:25:38.059 --> 00:25:39.140 The vibes of U.S. 547 00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:41.920 Democrats are incredibly strong. 548 00:25:42.130 --> 00:25:45.230 It's mostly Democrats trying to tell each other, like, don't 549 00:25:45.670 --> 00:25:48.670 oversell how amazing of a night we're going to have. 550 00:25:49.150 --> 00:25:51.529 So on Today Explained from Vox, how are the Democrats 551 00:25:51.549 --> 00:25:59.920 going to mess this up? Nah, JK, JK, JK. 552 00:26:00.500 --> 00:26:04.440 The question isn't any more like, will Democrats flip the 553 00:26:04.460 --> 00:26:05.299 House majority? 554 00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:08.690 It's how big is that majority going to be? 555 00:26:11.059 --> 00:26:12.539 So on Today Explained from Vox, we're going to talk 556 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:14.420 about the new sheriff in town, if all of this 557 00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:18.480 goes as Democrats think it's going to go. Hakeem's house 558 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:23.880 on Today Explained, Monday through Friday afternoons in your feeds. 559 00:26:29.619 --> 00:26:30.119 Welcome back. 560 00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:32.640 Question number three comes from Matthew Ags. 561 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:34.789 A-G-S, I think I'm saying that correctly. 562 00:26:35.349 --> 00:26:38.910 What are the biggest lessons you've learned managing complicated relationships? 563 00:26:39.490 --> 00:26:39.730 Whoa. 564 00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:40.900 You go first, James. 565 00:26:41.740 --> 00:26:44.460 I mean, listen, as a divorce lawyer, I see good 566 00:26:44.500 --> 00:26:47.319 people at their absolute worst. So I'm used to dealing 567 00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:50.609 with people in very high stress situations. I'm used to 568 00:26:51.190 --> 00:26:54.430 coaching people behind the scenes on how to interact with 569 00:26:54.470 --> 00:26:56.829 a person that they're divorcing but still living with while 570 00:26:56.849 --> 00:26:59.849 the divorce is going on. So how to sort of 571 00:26:59.930 --> 00:27:03.250 deal with the charging bull of a difficult person is 572 00:27:03.289 --> 00:27:06.990 something I'm accustomed to. I'm a big fan of being clear. 573 00:27:07.710 --> 00:27:09.470 I think we cause a lot of damage to our 574 00:27:09.490 -->

00:27:12.819 relationships by trying to like, I don't want to say hedge, 575 00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:16.079 but soften something that we know the other person doesn't 576 00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:16.579 want to hear. 577 00:27:16.819 --> 00:27:18.180 You know, a breakup's a good example. 578 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:20.279 Like when you decided you're going to end a relationship, 579 00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:23.180 doing the, I've been thinking that maybe we need to 580 00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:23.839 take some time. 581 00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:25.869 Already we're throwing in maybes. 582 00:27:25.940 --> 00:27:28.349 We're throwing in like this idea that instead of saying, 583 00:27:28.630 --> 00:27:30.369 I've been giving this a lot of thought and I've 584 00:27:30.410 --> 00:27:32.390 come to the conclusion that we're just not where we 585 00:27:32.430 --> 00:27:34.210 need to be in this relationship and I think it 586 00:27:34.230 --> 00:27:34.809 needs to end. 587 00:27:35.309 --> 00:27:35.759 So I think. 588 00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:39.289 Clarity is a huge piece of this. Being clear about 589 00:27:39.349 --> 00:27:42.009 what you want, what you need. Look, I think all 590 00:27:42.069 --> 00:27:48.559 relationship problems stem fundamentally from two things. We don't know 591 00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:52.000 what we want, and we don't know how to express 592 00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:53.900 what we want, even if we did. I think the 593 00:27:53.940 --> 00:27:56.559 most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves. And 594 00:27:56.579 --> 00:27:59.839 we tell ourselves a whole myriad of lies in relationship. 595 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:01.029 Because why? 596 00:28:01.069 --> 00:28:03.809 We're ashamed of of what we want, what we need, 597 00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:06.359 what we really feel, as opposed to what we think 598 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:10.079 we should feel and should do. Marriage is a tradition. 599 00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:15.000 Our present relationship format is a tradition. And tradition is, 600 00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:19.490 in some ways, the wisdom of the past being brought 601 00:28:19.529 --> 00:28:22.890 to bear on present circumstances. And it's also peer pressure 602 00:28:22.930 --> 00:28:27.670 exerted by dead people. And so I think sometimes in relationships, 603 00:28:28.509 --> 00:28:31.990 you know, relationships have no business being unmanual. Like there's 604 00:28:32.049 --> 00:28:34.230 no manual on how they spent a lot of time 605 00:28:34.269 --> 00:28:36.359 in school trying to teach me how to divide fractions. 606 00:28:36.490 --> 00:28:39.299 I've never used it, but no one really ever taught me, 607 00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:42.420 you know, how do you diffuse or deescalate a fight 608 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:44.240 with your partner when you feel like, okay, I can 609 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:46.319 be right or I can be happy in this situation. 610 00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:47.990 And what's the best way to deescalate? 611 00:28:48.970 --> 00:28:51.690 I think we need to acknowledge that this is potentially 612 00:28:51.730 --> 00:28:54.150 a teachable skill. that it's something we can get better 613 00:28:54.269 --> 00:28:56.529 and better at if we talk about it instead of 614 00:28:56.609 --> 00:28:59.859 doing what humans do, which is just watching the people 615 00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:03.940 around us, which is watching our parents and our grandparents, who, A, 616 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:06.799 may not have been good at relationship, B, were growing 617 00:29:06.859 --> 00:29:10.609 up in totally different life circumstances, and throw in C, 618 00:29:10.970 --> 00:29:15.230 that now we're comparing ourselves to people on social media, 619 00:29:15.789 --> 00:29:19.109 where that is just, they're playing their greatest hits while 620 00:29:19.130 --> 00:29:22.559 we're living our gag reel, And it's just not honest. 621 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.220 And we're comparing ourselves to fake people saying, you know, 622 00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:27.809 it's like how we, our body image, like, oh man, 623 00:29:27.849 --> 00:29:28.789 I wish I looked like that. 624 00:29:29.230 --> 00:29:31.509 They don't look like that. Those are filters. 625 00:29:31.609 --> 00:29:34.170 So all we're doing is putting like, you know, filters 626 00:29:34.230 --> 00:29:38.029 and spanks on our relationships. And then everyone's comparing themselves 627 00:29:38.069 --> 00:29:42.119 to that filtered version and feel dissatisfied, as opposed to 628 00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:45.460 us just having this ability to be blunt and honest 629 00:29:45.500 --> 00:29:50.059 with ourselves and our partner and handling conflict that way proactively. 630 00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:55.640 Yeah, the terms that came to mind for me are 631 00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:59.579 red flags and self-assessment. And the first is, I know 632 00:29:59.619 --> 00:30:04.170 guys and women who like complicated. The term I use, 633 00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:07.480 they like drama. It turns them on. It makes them 634 00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:10.680 feel invested in the relationship. It makes them feel like 635 00:30:10.700 --> 00:30:14.440 the other person's invested. They manufacture drama and seem. 636 00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:14.940 To enjoy it. 637 00:30:16.200 --> 00:30:20.680 And so self-assessment around, are you drawn? I have a 638 00:30:20.700 --> 00:30:23.640 friend who's a therapist and he married a very complicated woman. 639 00:30:23.940 --> 00:30:26.619 And I'm convinced he's decided he likes to work so 640 00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:31.039 much he's going to bring that Skilda to his house. And, 641 00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:36.490 but hey, it works for them. She, you know, they have, so, 642 00:30:37.309 --> 00:30:39.609 you know, it's sort of like different strokes for different folks. 643 00:30:39.750 --> 00:30:43.789 But something you said that struck me was that, and 644 00:30:43.829 --> 00:30:45.930 this goes to red flags, if

you're like most people, 645 00:30:46.029 --> 00:30:49.250 I don't think, you know, when people say this relationship, 646 00:30:49.269 --> 00:30:51.390 you know, relationships take a lot of work. My sense 647 00:30:51.430 --> 00:30:53.009 is a relationship that takes a lot of work is 648 00:30:53.089 --> 00:30:55.609 a sign of a bad relationship. And I'm not suggesting 649 00:30:55.630 --> 00:30:57.869 you don't invest in it. I'm not suggesting that everything's 650 00:30:57.890 --> 00:31:00.190 going to be easy always, especially if you throw kids 651 00:31:00.210 --> 00:31:03.390 and financial problems and aging parents into it. You need 652 00:31:03.410 --> 00:31:06.190 someone competent that's generous with you and a level of 653 00:31:06.230 --> 00:31:09.049 commitment there to stay together even when things aren't great. 654 00:31:09.869 --> 00:31:13.390 But assess, one, do you like complicated? Because some people do. 655 00:31:13.539 --> 00:31:16.319 But for the majority of us who don't, a red 656 00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:20.150 flag that you highlighted that really resonated, if someone... Really 657 00:31:20.369 --> 00:31:22.710 think long and hard before you decide to commit to 658 00:31:22.750 --> 00:31:26.369 someone who has substance abuse issues. That is just something. 659 00:31:27.410 --> 00:31:31.430 And the other red flag that I noticed, probably, you know, 660 00:31:31.450 --> 00:31:33.500 the one that kind of got away or you just 661 00:31:33.539 --> 00:31:36.640 always felt this immediate connection and were just crazy about 662 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:39.720 was a woman who I was in a relationship with 663 00:31:39.940 --> 00:31:43.039 and she struggled with mental illness. And I remember making 664 00:31:43.059 --> 00:31:46.569 the conscious decision. I had called two friends who were 665 00:31:46.789 --> 00:31:49.529 married to people who struggled with mental illness and And 666 00:31:49.549 --> 00:31:52.250 I said, there's just so many wonderful things about this 667 00:31:52.309 --> 00:31:54.730 woman that in my mind kind of override this. And 668 00:31:54.750 --> 00:31:58.529 they were very sort of practical. They like, run. Like, 669 00:31:58.609 --> 00:32:00.670 I love my wife. I'm not going to go anywhere. 670 00:32:01.230 --> 00:32:04.029 You don't know who you're waking up next to. And 671 00:32:04.230 --> 00:32:06.210 you can't, and they said to me, Scott, you think 672 00:32:06.230 --> 00:32:08.359 of yourself as a fixer and someone who can handle anything? 673 00:32:08.380 --> 00:32:13.380 They're like, you cannot fix this. And so an honest 674 00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:16.900 self-assessment around whether you're drawn to the drama, and if 675 00:32:16.940 --> 00:32:23.380 you're not, just being honest, have situational awareness around the 676 00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:28.420 attributes of this person or what you're entering into in 677 00:32:28.460 --> 00:32:31.789 terms of how complicated it is and whether you're

really 678 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:35.289 going to enjoy that complexity. Or if you're like most 679 00:32:35.329 --> 00:32:38.609 of us, you don't and you want some peace and 680 00:32:38.650 --> 00:32:42.390 harmony because complexity will find its way into your relationship 681 00:32:42.450 --> 00:32:44.470 as you get older with, again, kids. 682 00:32:44.670 --> 00:32:45.509 And I think depth. 683 00:32:45.690 --> 00:32:48.549 I think depth, you know, like look at, Look, give 684 00:32:48.569 --> 00:32:50.890 an honest assessment, like you said, of what it is 685 00:32:51.089 --> 00:32:52.710 underneath this trait, right? 686 00:32:52.789 --> 00:32:54.750 So what is it about the fighting? Is it that 687 00:32:54.769 --> 00:32:55.529 it's passionate? 688 00:32:55.609 --> 00:32:57.950 Okay, there's a way to have passion without having it 689 00:32:57.990 --> 00:33:01.119 be toxic passion, right? Like I had a tendency when 690 00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:03.160 I was a young man to date women who had 691 00:33:03.259 --> 00:33:06.059 problems I could solve because I love solving problems and 692 00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.640 I feel really of use. It led to me at 693 00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:10.849 my career, you know, being a problem solver. But the 694 00:33:10.890 --> 00:33:13.490 truth was, at some point in relationship, I got to 695 00:33:13.509 --> 00:33:16.309 the point where I was like, man, the hospital's full. 696 00:33:16.349 --> 00:33:18.710 This is not what I need. At the end of 697 00:33:18.730 --> 00:33:22.049 the day, I don't need somebody who I have to 698 00:33:22.130 --> 00:33:24.970 manage their entire life. But again, I'm attracted to it 699 00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:27.339 for a myriad of reasons, many of which my therapist 700 00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:28.660 would be happy to talk to you about. But I 701 00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:32.039 think if we can have that honest self-assessment and say, look, 702 00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:35.440 what is the thing underneath this trait that is so 703 00:33:35.500 --> 00:33:38.069 attractive to me because there are ways to get a 704 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:41.589 dose of that and not deny your desire, but not 705 00:33:41.690 --> 00:33:44.269 let it be like the defining characteristic. If I like 706 00:33:44.289 --> 00:33:46.269 to be of service and of use, and that makes 707 00:33:46.349 --> 00:33:49.950 me feel masculine and excited and passionate, that's great. But 708 00:33:49.990 --> 00:33:51.630 it doesn't mean I have to be with someone who's 709 00:33:51.670 --> 00:33:55.009 just emotionally crippled and who has, you know, severe substance 710 00:33:55.109 --> 00:33:55.849 use issues so I. 711 00:33:55.829 --> 00:33:58.069 Can drag them from the other room and carry them. 712 00:33:58.390 --> 00:34:00.609 Like it could just be someone who doesn't mind letting 713 00:34:00.650 --> 00:34:02.750 me open the jar of pickles and that might scratch 714 00:34:02.789 --> 00:34:04.779 the itch for me. So I think, you know, we 715 00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:08.380 don't want to treat dandruff with decapitation. It'll work, but 716 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:11.480 it's just overcorrection, and we're very prone as a species 717 00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:14.539 to overcorrection. So I think coming to grips with what's 718 00:34:14.599 --> 00:34:18.630 the thing under the thing that causes that attraction and 719 00:34:18.670 --> 00:34:19.469 excitement for you. 720 00:34:20.190 --> 00:34:23.269 Don't treat dandruff with decapitation. That's the line of the segment. 721 00:34:23.289 --> 00:34:26.789 James Sexton, also known as America's Divorce Lawyer, is a 722 00:34:26.829 --> 00:34:30.110 trial lawyer with two decades of experience negotiating and litigating 723 00:34:30.219 --> 00:34:34.139 high-conflict divorces in Part 2 out next Monday. James and 724 00:34:34.340 --> 00:34:37.110 I will answer your questions about keeping money separate in 725 00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:40.849 a marriage, de-escalating conflict, and why fewer young people are 726 00:34:40.889 --> 00:34:41.530 getting married. 727 00:34:41.670 --> 00:34:45.010 James, thanks, and I will see you next week. Always great, Scott. 728 00:34:46.889 --> 00:34:49.909 This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez and Laura Genere. 729 00:34:50.070 --> 00:34:52.769 Kami Reek is our social producer, Brad Williams is our editor, 730 00:34:52.889 --> 00:34:55.070 and Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for 731 00:34:55.110 --> 00:34:57.710 listening to the PropGee Pod from PropGee Media.