บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ S2 E53 Margo MacDonald - Storyteller, Paranormal Consultant and Author

Dramatic Arts. So I was there for over a year and discovered ghost tours, which weren't really a thing in Canada before I left, or at least not in my area. And when I came back to Ottawa, where I'm From was living still at the time. I looked out the window from a rehearsal hall one day and noticed someone in a black cloak with a lantern and a group gathered around her. And I was like, what is that a ghost tour? So I looked it up and found the haunted walk. It was just newly starting up in Ottawa and they were hiring. So I applied and auditioned and got in. And 25, almost 26 years later, I'm I'm still working for them. And because Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, and. Margo MacDonald: It started out as, you know, I'm a tour guide. I'm telling the stories, but inevitably people want to tell you their own stories. And I was doing a fair bit of research for them as well, going out and interviewing people about ghost stories and trying to find new stories for the tours. Little by little it starts to occur to you that maybe there's more going on than initially thought. You know, maybe it's not all just restless spirits of the dead or If it is how or why. And then in more recent years, we decided to start doing investigation events, the Alone in the Dark experiences, where we take small groups of the public and bring them to haunted locations and put them through a number of experiments, not all of which look like you would imagine from TV shows. And we try, we try to get a sense of what is the activity, what's causing it. And so really it was because of that. long period of being involved with the paranormal. I never thought it would become such a huge part of my life. It just kind of accidentally did. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, and it's interesting that you mentioned that because obviously that's where we met on the Alone in the Dark investigations. And what sticks out to me about that particular night is I can't remember which room we was in, but we did the Estes method. And because I'd seen Margo MacDonald: Mm. Lee - Paranormal Prism: it on TV, I wanted to be a part of that. So I immediately volunteered. And I remember being sat on a chair and then you had arranged the dozen or so people around me. And then I'd got the headphones like I have on now, blindfolded. And then you told me to call out any words that we heard. And from what I remember, there was a couple of names that I heard. But yeah, I was still a little bit on the, wow, is this really real? That kind of stuff. Because I've not done it before. But one thing that really sticks out is that I had the sensation of somebody pacing up and down in front of me. And I remember talking to you about it to go, was you pacing up and down? Because with you being the host, potentially it could have been you walking because you're getting other people to interact as well. But then you said that nobody had been walking about in front of me, but I could really feel the sensation of footsteps going past like, and I thought it was you that was pacing up and down. So that was really bizarre and kind of a little bit eye opening for me. So with regard to some of these investigations, have you had the public experience similar kind of instances? Margo MacDonald: Yeah, and you know, Lee, I remember that happening. And I remember that in that room it was it was in the house where the fam this family used to live and it's quite haunted and but very old, right? So we we actually don't I actually encourage people not to walk because the floors are so kind of creaky. So we all knew for certain that nobody had walked even once past you, that we'd all stayed exactly where You'd left us before you put the blindfold on. So it was a very cool experience. And of course, it would have made perfect sense if it had been me, but it wasn't. But definitely over the years that we've been doing our Alone in the Dark investigations, and we do places in Ottawa as well as in Toronto. And we've had many, many, many experiences. The public have had experiences. We as the hosts have had our own experiences too. Sometimes while setting up or tearing down, you know, we just put out all the candles and make sure the equipment's in the right spots and so on. But sometimes while we're with the group. And one of mine, you know, there's lots of noises here or there, or, you know, maybe, did something touch me? But maybe it was, you know. But the one undeniable thing that happened to me on Alone in the Dark at the village at Black Creek here north of Toronto, an old heritage style village similar to the one in Cumberland that we were investigating together, we were doing the call and response section, or this seance, if you will. We're sitting in the attic of a building known as Sam's House, built in 1855, moved to the property to become part of this museum village. We're sitting in a circle, some electric candles in the middle. And I'm just starting out saying to them, you know, we're gonna call out some questions to the spirits and we're gonna see if they answer. So I was doing what's known as the invocation of the spirits, where you just say hello. You tell them why you're there, you ask them if they want to respond. So I had just finished saying. You know, we're we're not here to harm you or scare you. We're we're just full of curiosity to know if you are here with us. If there is anyone here with us tonight, could you please let us know by making a sound? And it was literally maybe a beat of three, like one, two, three, and from downstairs, as if someone had poked their head into the stairwell and called up to us. I heard a male voice say Hullo And I know there's no one else in the building because the doors are extremely creaky. You can't walk across that floor, even in sock feet, without being heard. We're upstairs. And I is it my imagination? I turn and I look at some of the people. I had about 10 people with me. And I can see right away the people next to me look at me like

this. And I was like, Lee - Paranormal Prism: Hahaha. Margo MacDonald: Did you hear something? They were like, yes. And some people across the circle, closer to the stairs, nodded yes as well. And I said, What did you hear? They all said the exact same thing. They'd heard a man's voice say hello. And it wasn't even a like, hello, like as if someone was like, is any is someone in the building? But just an answer to our question. I'm here, hello. And since then, of course, the skeptical side of my brain has tried and tried and tried to debunk it. Going back the next week, seeing if someone was outside, if somebody came in the back door, like and there's there's no reasonable explanation. We didn't get any other answers all night, but I figured, you know, that was good enough. Lee - Paranormal Prism: And it's always those small interactions that can make a four, a six, an eight hour investigation worthwhile. Margo MacDonald: Yeah, absolutely. Because the truth is, as you all know, Lee, a lot of times nothing happens at all. You can spend a lot of hours talking to yourself in the dark and nothing really happens or nothing that you can definitely grab hold of. And we always want some big, undeniable thing to happen. And some people seem to have had that happen or claim to have those things happen. But for me it is often these simple but direct and unexplainable things that cause me to keep wanting to investigate and try to figure out w what's going on. Lee - Paranormal Prism: That's right, and I always tell people that ghosts and spirits are not performing monkeys. you can't just kind Margo MacDonald: Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: of, okay, entertainment time, know, get them to do a dance and a jig kind of thing. But you're... Margo MacDonald: No, and what a weird way to spend your afterlife if if if so. You know. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, and I always tell people it's quite funny. I say the comment I've just made and I went, you can just imagine if there's a one or two or a group of spirits at one location and every Friday and Saturday night they're going, my God, the humans are coming in again. They're going to want us to knock on a wall or so. No, I've had enough. I'm leaving. I'm going to come back after they've gone. And you can kind of imagine that happening because some of these like pay to play locations. It's every Friday and Saturday night. Margo MacDonald: Yeah. And multiple showings or Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah. Margo MacDonald: multiple a night, you know, thousand people through one weekend, you know. Sometimes at the Lee - Paranormal Prism: So yeah, so. Margo MacDonald: locations, like we we are fortunate enough here in Toronto, we get to sometimes do Alone in the Dark at the Elgin and Winter Garden Theatres, which is a beautiful heritage site, the last working double decker Edwardian vaudeville theater in the world. And Because of the history of the place and the fact that it is a theater and full of performers or people who love

theater, I try a trick there where when I'm setting up the candles and things, sometimes I'll say, Okay, like here's your chance. Come out and play, you know, give us give us a good show. And sometimes that seems to get a response, thinking of it that way rather than, you know. as you say, dance monkey dance, but it's like giving them an opportunity to play and sometimes they do really show up. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, I, if I go on an investigation, I prefer to kind of go away by myself. And I've had some of the best like interaction. Like there was the Williamstown, the other side of Cornwall. I can't remember the name of the place, but I was on the second floor and just doing the normal thing. But I'm being polite. I'm always polite and courteous when I go on Margo MacDonald: Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: an investigation because you have to be. and I just got the sensation of a small hand wrapping around my three fingers. Margo MacDonald: Mm. Lee - Paranormal Prism: And it, I didn't feel like nervous or anything. It just felt like a little child walked up and just grabbed my hand. Now I was in a part of the building that was a little bit run down. So my immediate thought was cobwebs. But then you realize that I'd actually got my thumb hanging out my left palm pocket. So was causing like the triangle, yeah, I'm a teapot kind of stance. So if any cobwebs had been hanging down, it would have been taken out by my shoulder or my elbow, but it just felt like it was like a little hand. And it's like, that was kind of like the only thing that happened that night, but I was so grateful to have that sensation that I couldn't debunk no matter how hard I tried. And it's those little moments in your investigation. You can have five investigations where you get nothing, but then you get that one little piece that makes it all worthwhile. Margo MacDonald: Absolutely. And that's what I always say to our guests too. I'm like, you know, most of the time nothing happens. So it it's okay though, because excuse me, it makes the times when things do happen all the more i significant. And those are the ones we can't stop thinking about, right? So yeah, it's interesting that you say you you think you get better experiences when you investigate on your own, because for me I find it's the exact opposite. I don't know if maybe I put up too much of a a wall when I'm by myself or I'm too scared when I'm on my own. But I always have had my best experiences when I've been with other people. so in my book, when I go to do the investigations, I'm often bringing what I call my ghost bait, which are friends or colleagues who I've lured along to be the ones Lee - Paranormal Prism: You Margo MacDonald: to make the ghosts come out and play, you know. although I did investigate a couple of times on my own as well. But Yeah. Interesting. Lee - Paranormal Prism: So yeah, I know that you've done a lot of research and you're a paranormal consultant. So if I was to say to you, what do you think a ghost or a spirit is? What kind of answer would you give me? Margo MacDonald: I would say ye what funny you should ask. I just wrote a whole book about it. You should read Lee - Paranormal Prism: Ha Margo MacDonald: it. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Here, buy a book. Margo MacDonald: yeah, exactly. part of the impetus for the book was as I kind of alluded to earlier, it's was my discovery that for myself and a lot of people I knew Who had been involved with the paranormal in one way or the other for a long period of time, talking decades, right? We all had this experience of finding what we believed or thought was going on changing and mutating and causing us to have more questions than answers most of the time. And I actually went through a period for a while where I became Really sad and disappointed because I thought, you know, like I don't think I believe in ghosts anymore. Like it, I don't know. It just doesn't, it's just not working for me anymore, you know. But then but then we started the investigations and so on, and little things started happening. And I realized, no, it's not that I don't believe in ghosts, it's just that I think there are probably many different answers to what. causes hauntings or people to experience ghosts. The premise that I went out with was the one thing we can all agree on is that humans have been experiencing something that we call ghosts or hauntings for as long as there have been humans, probably, right? In all time periods, all cultures, all different beliefs across the planet, we have experienced ghosts and hauntings. The one thing we can't agree on, though, is what exactly those ghosts and hauntings are. And for some the answer is it's all in your head, and for others, it's definitely the spirits of dead people, and then you have everything in between and even beyond. So for me, it's been a journey and continues to be a journey. And I wouldn't say that I feel I have the answers. I feel I have from time to time kind of working theories that I go out and investigate and see how that theory lines up with the stories people are telling me or the things I've experienced. And and then, what about this idea? Or, you know, could this type of haunting be more like this? And so I'm still in a in a phase of changing my mind. But I definitely started out way back when all I knew about ghosts was that they definitely were the restless spirits of the dead. Or and then going on a bit, maybe, okay, maybe imprints of energy that left by those who have passed. And then moving on into many different phases from there, I think now I'm leaning towards that ghosts and hauntings are something even even stranger than we can imagine. And that a lot of paranormal activity is probably connected in ways that we haven't really conceived of yet. that's where I'm at right now. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, and it is probably one of the most difficult questions to answer because, Margo MacDonald: Mm-hmm. Lee - Paranormal

Prism: you watch some of the TV shows and it comes up with Margot McDonald, paranormal expert. And it's like nobody can be an expert in this field because Margo MacDonald: No. Lee - Paranormal Prism: it's all unexplained. We can have people that have got a lot of experience, but we do not have an expert. And I was talking to a guy a few weeks ago. who said that there's a difference, he thinks there's a difference between a ghost and a spirit. A ghost is the restless spirit, I know it's contradictory, but the ghost is the restless one that hasn't crossed over, but the spirit is the one that has crossed over that basically comes back just to say, Margot, I'm here. Yeah, and that kind of thing. And it kind of makes sense. that he can differentiate between the two. Margo MacDonald: Definitely. I think it would be naive to first of all, I agree totally. I don't think there are experts. There are people with lots of experience and people who have spent a a a massive amount of time contemplating these things and trying to experience and investigate these things. But even as one of my the people I interview in the book says, anyone who claims that they know for certain what is happening is i is fooling themselves and trying to fool you, you know. It's like nobody knows for certain. but I think it's I think the idea that every type of haunting from those deathbed visions where people see someone they knew and then find out later that was the moment they died, sort of thing. to poltergeist activity where things are throwing around your house, to the lady in white, the scene on the road or whatever, to to try to think that they are all the same thing, that they are caused by the exact same thing, i would be a naive way of looking at it. It it feels like a better way to look at it is that it is a different activity. It's different phenomena. It probably has a different explanation. Maybe that explanation is related and we can we can explain a lot by finding a kind of unified theory, but then I think from that there will be still offshoots of like, but in this case, it's this or could be this or that sort of thing. And I honestly I don't think we're ever gonna know. And that's part of what I find fascinating about it, is that we will just keep experimenting and just keep exploring. And collecting whatever evidence we can in whatever way we can, and maybe at some point we can figure out what something is, maybe poltergeist. but whether that explains everything else, I I doubt it. Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, because I know when I first really got involved, excuse me, there's a company out in Halifax called Paranormal Phenomena Research Institute, PPRI, and they do courses. So I jumped on a few of these courses because I wanted to have a background. I wanted to have a knowledge base of what I'm talking about. So if somebody asked me a question, I can give them what I think is the correct answer. And, you know, I did courses on poltergeist and cryptids and ghosts and hauntings. And I even did an introduction to demonology. Not because I believe that demons exist, they may not do. However, if you've got that knowledge, then you can, if somebody comes up to you and go, I think I've got a bit of a problem, and they explain to you, that then goes, well, it could be of a paranormal nature, but there are plenty things of a rational nature. that it could be. So one of the things that I like to do, you can't really do it with some of these pay to play locations, but if you go to a private residence, you will check the electromagnetic field with your EMF meter, you'll check for black mold, and you do all the rational things that can cause hallucinations in everyday life, and you do that before you even go down the road. of it being paranormal. Margo MacDonald: Yeah, absolutely. Or else you're not doing due diligence, especially if you're choosing to investigate private residences. You have to be extra careful because a lot of times those experiences can also mean there's a lot of turmoil or trauma happening in the location, in which case, you know, they need a psychologist or therapist, maybe as well as a paranormal investigator, but you can't be that person for them. But what you can do is as you say, run down through all of the different non-paranormal options that is possible for you to do. my friend Jack, who I investigate with a lot, we did a favor for a friend and investigated at her house, and the first thing that we found were excessively high levels of EMF throughout the house. And especially in the areas where activity had been experienced. And we we had a very difficult time trying to explain what the presence of this high EMF meant, because I think you know, they really wanted to believe the house was haunted. So I'm like, I'm not saying it's not haunted. I'm just saying maybe you want to get an electrician in, see if you can resolve some of this EMF stuff, which is not good for your health either, and then see. what happens, you know. but yeah, it was we were we were like amazed. We're like, I've never seen EMF reading that high in any place we'd ever investigated. So Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, I can so relate because we went to an investigation of a place not far from where you currently are. I'm not going to give the name away. And Margo MacDonald: No. Lee - Paranormal Prism: the owner was going, it's really active on the dining room table around the dining room table. It's really active in the lounge and loads of different teams have come in and got results. Now, I don't believe in using a K2. I have a trifield because it's a lot more accurate and it's used in in construction so you've got a much more of a better record of the events and the owner's talking to say yeah lot of people have activity around the dining room table so I put the trifield on and it's bouncing really well so I'm going up what's below us and she went there's an apartment identical to the one that we're in though

layout's exactly the same I went okay and one of my colleagues is looking at me and then she leaves the room I then put the tri-field on the floor and it's going even more crazy. So yeah, it was an old building. Margo MacDonald: They've got a a light fixture or something there with bad wiring. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Exactly. yeah, exactly. And then I went to the location in the lounge where she said it was a lot of activity. And on the sofa, again, it was going really high. I walked around the wall into the kitchen and there was a big power box on the wall. But you can't kind of break that person's heart by going, Margo MacDonald: Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: it's not paranormal because they were they were getting people coming in investigating every weekend and it was making money for it. for her. I'm not going to kind of like break Margo MacDonald: Mm. Lee - Paranormal Prism: her heart to say it probably isn't, but Margo MacDonald: Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: at least for our records, we knew that most of it was probably EMF. But then in one of the bedrooms, one of my colleagues felt like he got tucked in at night time. That's not EMF. No, absolutely not. And he literally... Margo MacDonald: No. It could be hallucination, I suppose, but if he caught it on camera. But Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah. Yeah. Margo MacDonald: but you know, it's play devil's advocate about the EMF thing too. It's like we're not really sure what the connection between EMF and paranormal activity. We do know from a scientific point of view that high EMF can cause hallucinations, the feeling of a presence, bad health issues, and so on. But there are some people who would say Well, yes, but the place can still be haunted because that high amount of EMF is giving them energy in order to manifest, right? And Lee - Paranormal Prism: Exactly. Margo MacDonald: other people will say, Well, it's the spirits that give off the EMF and like everything in this field, we don't know. So you kinda have to take in all s all possibilities and all sides of the argument, you know? Lee - Paranormal Prism: That's it. And like you say, yeah, it's not up to us to burst somebody's bubble. Because, and sometimes no matter what you say, they're only going to believe what they want to believe anyway. yeah, you can be in a no win situation. So about some of the locations that you've actually investigated, do any of them kind of like really stand out? And when you get asked this question, They're your go to answer. Margo MacDonald: Right. Well, you know, I was very fortunate that the book gave me a good excuse to go and investigate some places that I wouldn't normally have been able to. And for half of the book I'm over in England. And one of the investigations that I did was actually with Dr. Kieran O'Keefe, who you may know is the skeptic from well, I guess most haunted originally, but now Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah. Margo MacDonald: working with Danny Robbins on the uncanny. And it was Oxford Castle and Prison, which was the oldest place that I had ever investigated. Of course, most of the places I've investigated have been here in Canada, mostly in Ontario. We don't get anything in terms of a solid building that is that old here. And so even just being in that place And reaching out felt a lot different than anything I've investigated in Canada, even though I have investigated prisons and so on. But this was started out as a castle and then eventually was used as a prison and then expanded as a prison. And there were parts of it where you just could barely stand to be. in that space. Your everything in your being was telling you, we don't like this area. You need to get out of here. And I'm talking this was a completely empty level of one of the towers. Downstairs there was a museum exhibit about the where the officers would write the people's names and get them ready for going in and so on, the office downstairs, but this level was completely empty. not even a bench or anything. And then we were wandering around, investigating, looking, just reading exhibit. We walk into this room, there's nothing. There's not even posters on the wall. And we're I'm like, I don't like it in here. And my friend who was investigating with me was like, no, this feels worse than even the solitary confinement cell that we had been in. the padded cell that we had already investigated. We go into this area and we're just like everything in your body is telling you leave this space. But we did stay for a while. We only found out afterwards because you know one of the main differences with investigating with someone who primarily identifies as a as a skeptic is that he didn't tell us anything about the hauntings before the investigation. And we didn't even know names of famous people who were there or anything. And he only told us afterwards, you know that experience you had there. Well, lots of people have that same experience, or you know, that area where you're feeling this. Well, this is the story about that, which I found a very interesting approach. So we found out later that, yeah, that is the area that almost everybody reports as. Feeling awful, but the thing is, there is no EMF there. There's no electricity, Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah. Margo MacDonald: there's no equipment, there's nothing you can measure. It's all based on personal experience. And the fact that I had someone with me who felt the same thing and then found out that many others had felt it, that was kind of fascinating. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, so like explain that. But I've actually had Keiren on last year. Yeah. Yeah, that's Margo MacDonald: great. Yeah, he's he's so easy to chat with. Lee - Paranormal Prism: it. And it was six months in the making. I emailed him and he was just flicking through some emails. I'm really sorry, Lee, when can I come on? But even though he's a skeptic, he still admits that there were some things that he can't explain, which Margo

MacDonald: Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: is what a skeptic should be like. Yeah. Margo MacDonald: Should be, yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: It's not like you've got your blinkers on. No, I don't believe in anything. Yeah, this is black and white. There's no gray areas. But Kieran does, He was telling me about a time when he was watching a seance and people Margo MacDonald: Hm. Lee - Paranormal Prism: were saying it was cold and he'd got like a flare camera and he could see like a green mist coming and people go, it's really good. It's like, how can you explain that? And it's like, but he's a fascinating guy to talk to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Margo MacDonald: Absolutely. I felt so lucky to be able to interview him as well. But he's so kind with his time when he has it. He's very busy. But yeah, Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yes. that's it. Margo MacDonald: he says, as he says, he's a skeptic in the in the true meaning of the word, which is to remain open minded. And just that because of his training and it he tends to want to look through the scientific and psychological. explanations first. And but he says, you know, at the bottom of that list, there are it's paranormal. But as soon as you determine that's the explanation you have to go with, then you have a whole other book of pages about, well, if it's paranormal, what do we mean? And so he's always looking at things with his very big scientific brain of like checking things off. It could be this, it could be this, but but he will say, as you were saying before Lee, that As well, you can't say to someone, this is exactly what you experienced. I know it, and blah blah blah. Because he said either he wasn't there and he's only hearing about it afterwards, or he was there, but he's not you. So he wasn't experiencing it the same way you were, or even on the same side of the room. And so I really appreciated his way of working, and that's why I wanted to talk to him as of all the skeptics I knew, because I always found him so kind to the people who had Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah. Margo MacDonald: their experiences that he understood that it can be extremely frightening and it can be a life-changing thing to have some of these things happen to you. Lee - Paranormal Prism: That's it. And I tell people this all the time is like, just because you have an experience and I have an experience, but I don't experience what you did and vice versa does not mean it did not happen. Margo MacDonald: Right. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah. And that's the key that some people don't understand. yeah, Margot was stood right next door to me. She heard it, but I didn't. Well, you may be losing your hearing. You don't know. It could be something as simple as that. Margo MacDonald: It happens all the time. And the other possibility, of course, is that sometimes we're experiencing the activity with our minds, you know? So I hear it, but whether it was with my ears or in my mind, we don't know. You know? Lee - Paranormal Prism: That's

it. Yeah, I had a, I was at, I can't remember what the place is called now. It's a mill, the other side of Smith Falls, I think. Yes. See, see, you could read my mind. Well done. And it Margo MacDonald: Can tell? Lee - Paranormal Prism: was in the small gate house and one of our guys was downstairs in the basement and I had to go upstairs to get a piece of equipment. So as I'm coming down and I walk through the kitchen area, so you know exactly where I am. I heard a sound and I actually heard it live. So I've got cameras, I've got my body cam and I've got a hand cam. I've got my audio and you can see me spin around because I like, because I heard it and I'm trying to, I'm walking along the side of the table, the chair, just in case it was a swish of my pants. Margo MacDonald: Right. Mm-hmm. Lee - Paranormal Prism: And I sent it to the guy that has the company in Halifax. He tested that video. the audio wasn't tampered with, the video wasn't tampered with, and they can't explain what it was. You could hear the chirping of a smoke alarm that needed a battery replacement in the background, and you could hear the gentle hum of the AC or the whatever, but it was a distinctive pssst, like someone was trying to get my attention. We can't explain what it was, but we don't come out and say, that was a ghost, was. We just Margo MacDonald: No. Lee - Paranormal Prism: go, we can't explain it. This is unexplained. And Margo MacDonald: Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: that's what you have to do. You have to go, I don't know what it was. I don't know what it wasn't, you just, piece of evidence. Make it what you will. And that's the way that you have to go about things. Margo MacDonald: Did you did you have anything happen after that, in terms of activity or just that? Lee - Paranormal Prism: It was just that, just that. No, it was just that one piece of evidence. Yeah, and it was, was, yeah. Margo MacDonald: that's cool though, Lee. And cool that you just happen to get it on recording as well. Cause of course we well know that half the time it's like as soon as you turn the cameras off that you experience something and then have no record of it. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Exactly. And I was at the SDG jail in Cornwall and I got a, I was, you've probably been there hundreds of times. Margo MacDonald: I haven't yet, actually. I keep wanting to, but I haven't got there yet. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Margo, I'm very disappointed. You haven't Margo MacDonald: I know. Lee - Paranormal Prism: been to one of the biggest places in this area. on. yes. Margo MacDonald: I know. And Phantoms of Europe go there all the time, you know, in c in conjunction with Haunted Walks. And I'm like, Yes, this time I'm gonna go and then it hasn't happened yet. It's partly because Lee - Paranormal Prism: Something comes up, yeah. Margo MacDonald: I don't I don't drive. So I ha would I'd have to find someone who wanna you know what I mean? I will get there though. Good point, yes. Lee - Paranormal

Prism: Okay, okay, I'm gonna make it my challenge to get you out on an investigation. We'll make it happen definitely. Margo MacDonald: Yes. I'd love to investigate with you. Lee - Paranormal Prism: But I was in one of the wings and there was three of us and two of the guys were, one had gone left, one had gone right. I carried straight on and went into what's known as the Hell's Angel wing. Margo MacDonald: Mm. Lee - Paranormal Prism: And I don't know if you've known the picture, but there's like six cells on your left hand side with metal bolted down tables and chairs. Margo MacDonald: Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: And I'm basically going, if there's anybody here, please make a sign, make a sound, all that kind of stuff. And straight after, I heard a double breath on the audio. I didn't hear it in real time. I heard it on review. And so I've got a background in emergency services. So I know how people breathe, and I know how people. breathe when they're ill. But as soon as I finished talking, it was like a, and it's like, holy crap. So I sent it. Yeah, Margo MacDonald: Like like they were trying to say something, right? Lee - Paranormal Prism: and I sent it to a friend of mine who loves playing with audio. And he come back and went, this is your voice wave. This is me talking. This is me banging on the table. and this is the sound you heard and you could just distinctively see that it was like completely different voice waves and like what is it? went I can't explain what that was. Margo MacDonald: that's cool. Lee - Paranormal Prism: And that's why the SDG Jail is one of my favorite places. So we're definitely going to make it happen. Definitely. Yeah. Margo MacDonald: We're gonna go. We're gonna go. Lee - Paranormal Prism: So we have mentioned it a couple of times. A Curious Presence, your brand new book that is being released on the 6th of October. And I'm not saying Margo MacDonald: Tuesday. Yeah. Sixth of October. Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: that Margot's excited, but I think Margot's a little bit excited. Margo MacDonald: my gosh, you know, it's been a dream my whole life to be a published author. And this book just it it's it's a d well, a dream come true, and I'm still a little bit in disbelief that it actually came about. And and it may be, you know, through my life, this wasn't the book that I imagined that I would write. But having written it, I'm so glad that it is the one that I wrote, you know. Lee - Paranormal Prism: So I know you kind of mentioned it a little bit earlier, but how did the idea come about? How did you get your stories? I know you mentioned that you interviewed a couple of people, but do you want to go into the meeting to veg of how that came about? Margo MacDonald: Well the fun thing is that it it Lee - Paranormal Prism: . Margo MacDonald: came about directly because of Haunted Walks. And I was hosting Alone in the Dark, the Elgin and Winter Garden Theater, which of course I also helped create and and wrote the

scripted parts where we explained the history and the experiments and stuff. And a podcaster came on, Danielle Mattar, who hosts Geist. Podcast, which is an excellent one where people tell their stories, the things that have happened to them. And she enjoyed the Alone in the Dark investigation so much, she asked if I would be a guest on her podcast, which of course I said yes. And then an acquiring editor for ECW Press here in Canada heard me on the podcast and reached out to me to ask, on the basis of that, if I had ever considered writing a book. And I said, have I ever considered writing a book? Why, yes. You know, I had Lee - Paranormal Prism: You Margo MacDonald: been thinking about writing a book about ghosts for a number of years, but I hadn't quite figured out exactly what sort of ghost book, you know. So I met with her and we chatted it out. And the next thing I knew, I was signed to a contract and had to write the book. So I decided to write the sort of book that I would want to read. Which I always think is a good place to start. So the book is a combination of different things. Some of it, as I've mentioned, is me interviewing people who've been involved in the paranormal, one way or the other, for a long period of time, talking to them about what their belief about what hauntings and ghosts were started out as, and what it is now, or what their working theory is now, and what their journey has been in between. And we chatted out. And then other chapters in the book are me going to haunted places, often bringing along a ghost bait with me, investigating, chatting about ghosts, trying to have experiences in the place, and of course learning a bit about the places that we're in as well. And then intermixed with those are first-person real life experiences that have been had, some of them by myself, others by my ghost bait. others, the people I'm interviewing, and so on, that are told in the first person kind of the the experience they can't shake, the the thing that happened to them that they can't stop thinking about or that changed the course of their paranormal belief. And so you've got those told in the first person scattered throughout. And that so that's the book A Curious Presence, an exploration of ghosts and the people who haunt them. And It is a journey that I wanted to take because of not knowing where I was at in my beliefs about the paranormal. And I have to say, over the two years that I spent researching and then going out to do the investigations and interviews specifically for the book, my beliefs and my thinking really grew a a lot, and some of it solidified in ways that it hadn't before. But I wouldn't say I'm at the end of that journey. I'm just at this kind of rest stop. It's like, for now I'm gonna I'm gonna try this out and see what I think. And it was fascinating talking with these very interesting people about what their experiences have been. And, you know, like you asked me today, what was your origin story? Like where did your belief where did your interest in the paranormal start? They all have that, and so many of us had the similar thing that either it was the books that we read as kids. the television shows, Ghostbusters or Ghost Hunters or whatever. That was the impetus that set us off on a journey where we actually wanted to come face to face with those hauntings rather than just reading about them, you know. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, it's quite funny when you just mentioned your last paragraph because for me, back in the day, there was, you know, these magazines that used to come out every week and when you got a big bunch of them, you get a binder. This was Margo MacDonald: Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: called Arthur C. Clark's Unexplained. Margo MacDonald: wow, cool. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, and I've actually found a website that actually has them. somebody has scanned them it's like it's called the internet archive and they've actually Margo MacDonald: yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: scanned so i'll send you the link so you can have a look at it because it's Margo MacDonald: Yes, please. Lee - Paranormal Prism: like it's the first time i saw like a ghost in a in a photograph it was the first time i saw a picture of a cryptid it was the first time i saw a picture of a ufo yeah spontaneous human combustion and be moved a triangle and it's like that was I was probably, I don't know, five, six, seven, eight years old and like spending my allowance each week go to the corner store to buy the magazine. So that Margo MacDonald: And Lee - Paranormal Prism: was kind of, yeah. And everyone's got that kind of same kind of unexplained on TV and all that sort of stuff, but that was mine. So you mentioned the fact that you interviewed a lot of people in the UK and in North America. Were the story, how did the stories differ? between the two continents. Margo MacDonald: you know, in terms of the journeys that people had been on, it wasn't that different, you know. And it was more that the UK people were more influenced by the Osborne Book of Ghosts, for example, whereas we didn't really have that here in Canada so much, you know. some of the people who Younger than me, influenced by seeing Ghostbusters and deciding that's what they wanted to be in their real life. Or that's it was more like the influences of c pop culture surrounding ghosts. The the main difference, I think, was probably had to do with who I was interviewing more than where they were located. Because in Canada, I mostly interviewed people involved and Paranormal tourism. So most a lot of a few folks from the Haunted Walks, for example. And then in the UK, I'm interviewing people who are more actively investigating in terms of the Society for Psychical Research and the Ghost Club and Dr. Kieran O'Keefe. And so they're looking at it from kind of more studied way than personal experience way, although they definitely had their personal experiences too. And then I did go to the US and

interviewed four people, but they all belong to the same sort of paranormal group, which is Planet Weird Productions or the Newkirk Museum of the Paranormal. So it's mostly England, Cincinnati, Ohio, and Canada, yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, when people ask me where I'm from, I always tell them I'm from England, where the history comes from. And Margo MacDonald: Exactly. Lee - Paranormal Prism: it's really weird because I didn't really start getting involved with the paranormal until I came to Canada. But I'm so envious of all the different locations that are available in England. because there's so many. Like I say, it's where the history come from. My hometown is over a thousand years old. Margo MacDonald: Wow. Lee - Paranormal Prism: And it was named after Boston, Massachusetts. So that's how old it is. But you've got all these stories and it's not just in the last couple of hundred years. You're going back, you're seeing like... Roman soldiers or you see it goes back a lot further. Margo MacDonald: Yes. Lee - Paranormal Prism: And it's weird how this side of the pond, you've got two or 300 years of history where it goes back a lot further. So there's more interaction with more older ghosts if you like. Margo MacDonald: Course, you know, here we're we're talking European history because of course the indigenous histories go back for countless thousands of years Lee - Paranormal Prism: Absolutely. Margo MacDonald: and they have their own stories and their their own spooky entities and beliefs. But of course, you know, that's i it's so interesting to hear about them and to there are a bunch of indigenous investigation groups around too. And But it's, you know, it's not our history, you know, so we do tend to stick to the European settler side of things a lot of the times. But sometimes I feel like that also can be a little limiting if you're not at least aware of the indigenous history and some of those beliefs and stories, because sometimes I think the places we're going out and investigating, things come through where you're like, what's this? Like this does not. feel connected with this history at all. And this happens at Black Creek sometimes. And where most of those buildings were moved there from somewhere else. And it's on this in traditional territory of the Wendat and the Hot and Shoney who were there for thousands of years and had all kinds of history and experiences, but we just don't know about it, you know. Lee - Paranormal Prism: That's it. And you're absolutely right. And thank you for correcting me. But I have interviewed an indigenous investigator, girl called Amanda Quill, who's just Margo MacDonald: Mm. yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: got unsettled spirits on APTN, or ATP, the indigenous channel. I can't remember Margo MacDonald: Yes. Yep. Yep. Lee - Paranormal Prism: the abbreviation. But she was coming out with some fantastic stories. But. you've got to be extremely cautious when you're talking about indigenous folklore

and beliefs because they are so superstitious that they won't talk about the skinwalkers just in case something happens within and it's you you you you respect their wishes absolutely 100 % you know if you don't want to talk about something i'm not going to push that subject If you don't want to talk about shadow figures, I'm not going to go. So Margo, tell me about shadow. Yeah, that's just that's just being like, it's just so wrong. You can't do that. So and that's part and parcel of doing these podcasts. You you respect what people are telling you. You respect their wishes and the interview, the podcast is guided by what they tell you and you don't kind of go outside of your your parameters, so to speak. Margo MacDonald: Well, it's just like investigating, isn't it? I mean, at least how we do it, right? Where Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah. Margo MacDonald: start with a premise of be polite, you know. Don't expect them to, if there is something there to act upon your command, be grateful if they do give you anything, you know what I mean? And I think that same approach as you were just mentioning for how you interview your guests, it's like, yes. And that's that's a great approach with just life in general. Be respectful and start with a level of kindness and, you know, as I would say, curiosity. Just be more curious than you are afraid. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, and the amount of times I've gone to an investigation and I've actually apologized for previous people that have come to an investigation. It's all like, yeah, yeah, I'm sorry that you have to go through this every Friday and Saturday Margo MacDonald: Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: night and you try to reason with them, so to speak. So like, yeah. And part and parcel of that is that you have two different groups. You have Margo MacDonald: Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: the group that want to go out and get scared, and that's all they're bothered about. You go Margo MacDonald: Right. Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: out for a spooky event, and then you have the other kind that want to go out, do that investigation, do that research, and hopefully the existence of what we're investigating will come and present itself. And like I said earlier about getting those small snippets of interaction. That's what it's all about and that's the direction that any true investigator should go down. Margo MacDonald: Yeah, and how fascinating that we get to do this and occasionally get given something that we can't explain and that we can carry with us this little mystery in our lives, you know, and share with other people. And that to me is is the coolest part of doing this. Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah, exactly. And the opportunities I've had just doing this, I had an author reach out to me a few weeks ago, Lee, I've got this new new book out. I've seen your podcast. Can I come and talk about it? Absolutely you can. He goes, and I'll send you a free copy. So you've got something to that kind of stuff. And I had an email from a guy in Portugal last week that this family. So it's like. I was like gobsmacked when this email came in. went, why am I getting an email from a guy in Portugal? And he's like, I found your podcast. Yeah, I love it. Please keep up the good work. And he actually mentioned Keir and O'Keefe. And Margo MacDonald: mein L. Lee - Paranormal Prism: just for the record, Ghostbusters was Keir and O'Keefe's inspiration. Margo MacDonald: Yeah. I know. Lee - Paranormal Prism: So Margot, we are coming to the end. So no doubt you've got loads of book signings coming up. Where can people find you within the next few weeks to buy a book? Margo MacDonald: well, here in Toronto, that's what's kicking it off on the actual book launch day, which is Tuesday, October 6th. I'll be at Indigo Bayambler, and it starts at seven o'clock. I'll be doing a reading. QA is hosted by author Kelly Robson. I'll be joined by Paranormal Investigator and fellow haunted walk host Jack G.K., who's gonna demonstrate a ghost communication experiment. There might be cake. And of course Up a copy of the book and and now you want to be there. I think I'm gonna bring cake. Lee - Paranormal Prism: with that yeah Margo MacDonald: and and yeah, so that should be fun. And then I will also be doing a book launch in Ottawa and Kingston, and then a couple of little places back here in Toronto and so on. So there's a bunch of stuff coming up on the Haunted Walk website, which is hauntedwalk.com. There is a page for a curious presence. And if you scroll down, they've got most of the events listed there. Or you can follow me on social media. So on Instagram, I'm at Margo underscore thespian, which is a fancy word for actor, because remember, that's the other thing I do. So it's at Lee - Paranormal Prism: Yeah. Margo MacDonald: M-A-R-G-O underscore Thespian T-H-E-S-P-I-A-N. And that's my same handle on Blue Sky. So you can find me there. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Well, I've got a busy few weeks, but if I can manage to squeeze in your Ottawa launch, I'm definitely going to come and say hi and scare you. Margo MacDonald: That'd be amazing. The Ottawa launch is at Perfect Books on October fourteenth, in conversation with author Amal El Motar, who wrote the foreword of the book as well, who we met in our early days at Haunted Walks, and it'll be at seven o'clock, Perfect Books. Lee - Paranormal Prism: guess what? I'm free. Margo MacDonald: Yay Lee. Amazing. Lee - Paranormal Prism: I definitely going to have to come down to that. Yeah, because Margo MacDonald: Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: it's not like next weekend I'm in Quebec City, two weekends or three weekends time I'm in Winnipeg and then a week after that I'm in the Dominican. So I've got a busy schedule, but Margot. Margo MacDonald: Amazing. Well, I'm so glad that you can come. Lee - Paranormal Prism: Absolutely, I most definitely will. It's been an absolute pleasure, lovely. It's good to catch up after three years, I think. Margo MacDonald: Three years, I think. Yeah. Lee - Paranormal Prism: And I think this is going to be a great adventure for you and your new book. Can't wait to see your second book. is it coming out? is it coming out? Tell me, tell me, tell Margo MacDonald: I don't know. Let me get this one out first. Lee - Paranormal Prism: But it's like I say, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. You have a great rest of the day and we'll talk again soon. Okay, Margo MacDonald: Yes. Thank you so much, Lee. It's been wonderful. Lee - Paranormal Prism: take care. Bye bye. Margo MacDonald: Bye.