บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Mega Edition: Transcripts From The Alex Acosta Deposition (Part 1-3) (11/12/26)

--> 00:03:56.590 that's correct. Question, and subsequently resigned from that position in 66 00:03:56.610 --> 00:04:00.830 the summer of 2019? Answer, that is correct. Question, did 67 00:04:00.849 --> 00:04:04.710 you resign over the Epstein case? Answer, I chose to 68 00:04:04.729 --> 00:04:07.409 resign because of the concern that the Epstein case would 69 00:04:07.449 --> 00:04:11.370 distract from what I was doing as the Secretary of Labor. Question, 70 00:04:11.590 --> 00:04:14.840 were you instructed to resign? Answer, I was not instructed 71 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:18.980 to resign. Question, have you ever met Mr. Epstein? Answer, 72 00:04:19.019 --> 00:04:22.040 I have not met Mr. Epstein. Can I go back 73 00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:26.680 one minute? Question. Yes. Answer. I was neither instructed to resign. 74 00:04:26.980 --> 00:04:30.300 It wasn't suggested that I resigned. It was entirely my choice, 75 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:33.420 my decision. I remember calling a little bit after breakfast, 76 00:04:33.660 --> 00:04:36.279 asking to speak to the president, seeing him, and then 77 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:38.500 telling him that I thought it would be best for 78 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:42.240 his administration if I stepped aside. A trial at that 79 00:04:42.300 --> 00:04:44.319 point was pending, and I come from the school that 80 00:04:44.370 --> 00:04:47.290 these jobs are temporary. You step into them, you leave, 81 00:04:47.649 --> 00:04:49.850 and if you become a distraction, it's time to go. 82 00:04:50.370 --> 00:04:54.269 So it was entirely my choice. Question. And your resignation 83 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:58.019 was post-arrest but pre-death while in custody, correct? Answer. That 84 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:01.759 is correct. Question. Have you ever met Ghislaine Maxwell? Answer. 85 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:05.000 I have not. Did I answer the question about meeting Mr. Epstein? 86 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:09.029 I don't remember. Question. Yes. You said no, I believe. Answer. 87 00:05:09.069 --> 00:05:11.389 I have not met Mr. Epstein. I have never met. 88 00:05:12.050 --> 00:05:16.649 Is it Ghislaine or Ghislaine? Answer. Ghislaine Maxwell. Question, do 89 00:05:16.689 --> 00:05:19.250 you recall if anyone in your U.S. Attorney's Office met 90 00:05:19.290 --> 00:05:22.689 with Mr. Epstein? Answer, not to my knowledge. Question, how 91 00:05:22.730 --> 00:05:26.189 about with Ms. Maxwell? Answer, not to my knowledge. Question, 92 00:05:26.589 --> 00:05:28.829 and throughout this, I'm going to say the U.S. Attorney's 93 00:05:28.889 --> 00:05:33.819 Office will just say I'm referencing the Southern District of Florida. Answer, yeah, no, 94 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:37.220 I understand that. Question, okay, perfect. Have you ever met 95 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:40.790 Sarah Kellan? Answer, not to my knowledge. Question, do you 96 00:05:40.829 --> 00:05:44.009 recall if anyone in the U.S. Attorney's Office met with her? Answer, 97 00:05:44.069 --> 00:05:47.870 I wouldn't. I wouldn't have that information. It's possible that 98 00:05:47.949 --> 00:05:51.129 one of our trial attorneys did, but I would not know. Question, 99 00:05:51.189 --> 00:05:54.829 what about have you ever met with Nadia Marcinkova? Answer, 100 00:05:54.870 --> 00:05:58.829 I have not. Question. And same question, do you recall 101 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:01.560 if anyone in your office met with? Answer, I'm sorry, 102 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:04.759 can I back up? There was. He's cut off. Then 103 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:08.060 he continues again. There was a woman that we considered 104 00:06:08.100 --> 00:06:11.170 a victim. but that the state attorney did not necessarily 105 00:06:11.209 --> 00:06:14.189 consider a victim, and that that was my pause. I 106 00:06:14.230 --> 00:06:16.009 don't know if at some point, I don't know if 107 00:06:16.069 --> 00:06:18.379 that was Ms. Kellen or someone else. I don't know 108 00:06:18.420 --> 00:06:20.660 if at some point, one of her trial team or 109 00:06:20.699 --> 00:06:23.379 a case agent or someone met with that person. They're 110 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:27.199 talking about Haley Robson. Question, uh-huh. Answer, and I can't 111 00:06:27.220 --> 00:06:30.579 speak to that. I did not meet with her. Question, okay. 112 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:33.740 Then I'll re-ask the best of your recollection. Did anyone 113 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:36.730 in your office meet with Ms. Marcinkova? Answer, not that 114 00:06:36.750 --> 00:06:40.699 I'm aware of. But again... Question, but she could have 115 00:06:40.740 --> 00:06:42.959 been one of the people that your office characterized as 116 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:47.079 a victim, and the states didn't? Answer, there was some 117 00:06:47.139 --> 00:06:50.000 subgroup of victims that we thought we characterized as victim. 118 00:06:50.420 --> 00:06:53.279 The state's attorney office did not, based on my recollection 119 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:55.420 or based on what I've read. I don't know if 120 00:06:55.459 --> 00:06:58.930 those individuals were interviewed or not by my attorneys. I 121 00:06:59.009 --> 00:07:04.850 simply can't speak to it. Answer, okay. I've got two more. Answer, sure. Question, 122 00:07:05.430 --> 00:07:08.660 if it's the same answer, it's the same answer. Did 123 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:12.699 you ever personally meet with Leslie Groff? Answer, same answer. Question, 124 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:17.560 the same answer for anyone in your office? Answer, same answer, yes. Question, 125 00:07:17.850 --> 00:07:21.230 and then personally meet with Adriana Roth? Answer, same answer. 126 00:07:21.649 --> 00:07:26.589 Question and answer on both. Question on both, thank you. 127 00:07:27.230 --> 00:07:29.920 Just kind of like laying the foundation for what the U.S. 128 00:07:29.949 --> 00:07:33.990 Attorney's job is versus what the office does overall. In general, 129 00:07:34.129 --> 00:07:36.910 or your

experience in the Southern District of Florida, are 130 00:07:36.949 --> 00:07:40.019 you made aware of every federal criminal investigation going on 131 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:45.480 in the district? Answer, certainly not. The Southern District of Florida, 132 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:48.540 depending on how it's measured, one of the three or 133 00:07:48.579 --> 00:07:51.579 four largest, depending if you're measuring it by caseload, by 134 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:55.959 number of assistant United States attorneys. We have several hundred. We, 135 00:07:56.009 --> 00:07:59.149 you know, while I was U.S. attorney, had the most 136 00:07:59.230 --> 00:08:01.709 active caseload in terms of ongoing trials in the country. 137 00:08:02.230 --> 00:08:04.810 And so as a U.S. attorney, my focus was much 138 00:08:04.870 --> 00:08:07.610 more at the policy level than at the managing a 139 00:08:07.649 --> 00:08:11.529 particular case level. Question, and then what sorts of cases 140 00:08:11.569 --> 00:08:14.949 would raise to your level? Answer, issues that involve policy, 141 00:08:15.410 --> 00:08:18.810 issues that were particularly high profile, issues that were some 142 00:08:18.860 --> 00:08:25.420 type of dispute among AUSAs or among my supervisory staff. Question, Ken, 143 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:27.800 I'll let him sit. I'll ask a follow-up question and 144 00:08:27.819 --> 00:08:30.019 then I'll move to him. Can you explain what an 145 00:08:30.180 --> 00:08:33.029 issue involving policy would be? I can guess on the 146 00:08:33.049 --> 00:08:36.950 high profile and dispute, but what would be a policy issue? Answer, 147 00:08:37.509 --> 00:08:40.289 an issue that would, you know, affect an interpretation of law. 148 00:08:40.769 --> 00:08:43.669 An issue where it might be a novel approach. An 149 00:08:43.710 --> 00:08:46.610 issue where there might be an emphasis coming from main 150 00:08:46.649 --> 00:08:49.769 justice in Washington, D.C., where they wanted us to focus 151 00:08:50.070 --> 00:08:52.870 on that particular issue. And then the question is, how 152 00:08:52.889 --> 00:08:57.169 do we focus on that issue? Question, all right. Mr. Lynch, 153 00:08:57.210 --> 00:09:00.740 would you mind identifying yourself for the record? Now we 154 00:09:00.750 --> 00:09:05.820 have another congressman That's doing the questioning. Mr. Lynch, Congressman 155 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:09.779 Stephen Lynch, 8th Congressional District of Massachusetts and member of 156 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:14.899 the Oversight Committee. Question. You brought up issues that Maine 157 00:09:14.950 --> 00:09:18.029 Justice might have had more of a focus on advancing 158 00:09:18.090 --> 00:09:22.730 like prioritizing. Would Align USA be able to communicate with D.C. 159 00:09:22.789 --> 00:09:24.889 on a case or would they need to go through 160 00:09:24.909 --> 00:09:28.250 a supervisor or through you? Answer. I think that would 161 00:09:28.269 --> 00:09:30.830 depend on the case and the issues. There are several 162 00:09:30.850 --> 00:09:35.730 cases where line ASUAs were talking with Washington because it 163 00:09:35.769 --> 00:09:38.049 was their issue and they had the back and forth 164 00:09:38.370 --> 00:09:41.740 with criminal division on a regular basis. I would characterize 165 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:44.639 the Southern District of Florida as much more, much more 166 00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:48.320 permissive of communications with main justice as opposed to main 167 00:09:48.340 --> 00:09:53.789 justice might want more control between communications between divisions. Question, 168 00:09:54.129 --> 00:09:57.210 and then, what was the, did the, was the Epstein 169 00:09:57.230 --> 00:09:59.970 case high profile that it came across your desk prior 170 00:10:00.259 --> 00:10:04.139 to the non-prosecution agreement? Answer, so I have no recollection 171 00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:06.539 that it came across my desk prior to that. I 172 00:10:06.580 --> 00:10:09.330 have read in the OPR report, and I have no 173 00:10:09.370 --> 00:10:12.269 reason to discredit what the OPR report said, that the 174 00:10:12.309 --> 00:10:16.210 prosecuting AUSA briefed the first assistant and myself on the 175 00:10:16.250 --> 00:10:19.529 case early on when the decision the Palm Beach police 176 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:22.889 were very upset about the state attorney had done. The 177 00:10:22.909 --> 00:10:25.830 state attorney was charging the police wanted the state attorney 178 00:10:26.070 --> 00:10:29.129 to charge felony counts that would have resulted in imprisonment. 179 00:10:29.730 --> 00:10:31.970 The state attorney looked at the facts, didn't think that 180 00:10:32.009 --> 00:10:35.600 the facts justified the counts the police wanted, offered initially, 181 00:10:35.659 --> 00:10:39.080 I believe, an offer that would have resulted in probation. 182 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:43.230 I believe Mr. Epstein rejected that offer. The state attorney 183 00:10:43.330 --> 00:10:45.389 then decided to take it to a grand jury to 184 00:10:45.429 --> 00:10:48.250 let the people of Palm Beach, in essence, decide and 185 00:10:48.269 --> 00:10:50.789 presented all the charges from the highest to the lowest 186 00:10:51.029 --> 00:10:54.139 to the grand jury. The grand jury returned a charge 187 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:57.580 that would have required the state equivalent of pretrial diversion, 188 00:10:57.899 --> 00:11:00.919 not even probation, I believe. And so then, the police 189 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:04.220 came to us. Somewhere around that point, my understanding is 190 00:11:04.539 --> 00:11:07.649 that the first assistant, then criminal chief, and I were briefed. 191 00:11:07.950 --> 00:11:10.450 I don't recall. I don't know. I suspect it was 192 00:11:10.490 --> 00:11:14.070 a very brief heads up. Question, generally, how would you, 193 00:11:14.409 --> 00:11:16.929 putting aside the Epstein case, but generally, how would

you 194 00:11:17.009 --> 00:11:21.330 monitor high profile cases? Answer, I had an excellent management staff. 195 00:11:21.990 --> 00:11:25.049 My first assistant had been criminal chief before that, had 196 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:28.120 been an executive in the Fort Lauderdale office before that. 197 00:11:28.580 --> 00:11:30.299 I had a criminal chief that had been the head 198 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:33.149 of major crimes. And in Palm Beach cases, we had 199 00:11:33.169 --> 00:11:38.029 a managing attorney, a managing AUSA, that before that had 200 00:11:38.110 --> 00:11:41.070 been acting head of public integrity at one point and 201 00:11:41.110 --> 00:11:44.620 had been an AUSA for any number of years. And 202 00:11:44.659 --> 00:11:47.259 so typically I would sit down with my management staff 203 00:11:47.580 --> 00:11:50.179 and we talk about the high profile cases that were pending. 204 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:53.500 We talk about what I needed to focus on and 205 00:11:53.620 --> 00:11:55.539 they would bring the issues to me that they thought 206 00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:58.679 were pertinent. Question, do you recall who the team was 207 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.740 that was handling the Epstein case at the time? Answer, 208 00:12:02.049 --> 00:12:03.940 so when it first came into the office, again, I 209 00:12:04.340 --> 00:12:07.000 don't recall when it first came into the office. The 210 00:12:07.019 --> 00:12:11.440 prosecuting attorney, according to OPR, briefed the then-criminal chief, subsequent 211 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:15.100 first assistant, on myself. And then, there's a lot of 212 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:18.480 communication for several months. Her chain of command would have 213 00:12:18.500 --> 00:12:21.039 been deputy chief in Palm Beach that, based on the 214 00:12:21.100 --> 00:12:25.269 OPR report, wasn't heavily involved. I don't know why. The 215 00:12:25.309 --> 00:12:28.769 managing attorney in Palm Beach County, then the criminal chief, 216 00:12:29.210 --> 00:12:33.559 and then the first assistant. Question. All right. Okay, folks, 217 00:12:33.740 --> 00:12:35.700 we're going to wrap up right here. And in the 218 00:12:35.740 --> 00:12:37.899 next episode, we're going to pick up where we left off. 219 00:12:38.419 --> 00:12:40.659 All of the information that goes with this episode can 220 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:43.879 be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And 221 00:12:43.940 --> 00:12:48.100 welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, 222 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.580 we're picking up where we left off with the Alex 223 00:12:50.659 --> 00:12:55.129 Acosta testimony given to Congress. Question. Do you recall who 224 00:12:55.149 --> 00:12:58.149 the team was handling the Epstein case at the time? Answer. No. 225 00:12:58.470 --> 00:13:00.549 So when I first came into the office again, I 226 00:13:00.909 --> 00:13:03.720 don't recall when I first came into the office,

the 227 00:13:03.769 --> 00:13:07.659 prosecuting attorney, according to OPR, briefed the then criminal chief, 228 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:11.799 subsequent first assistant, and myself. And then there's a lot 229 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:15.519 of communication for several months. Her chain of command would 230 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.019 have been deputy chief in Palm Beach that, based on 231 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:21.120 the OPR report, wasn't heavily involved. I don't know why. 232 00:13:21.740 --> 00:13:24.659 The managing attorney in Palm Beach County, then the criminal chief, 233 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:27.789 and then the first assistant. Question, all right, did your 234 00:13:27.830 --> 00:13:31.110 office have a sex crimes division? Answer, we did not 235 00:13:31.149 --> 00:13:34.789 have a sex crime division per se, no. Question, per se, 236 00:13:35.190 --> 00:13:39.049 what does Acosta cut some off? We had some individuals 237 00:13:39.090 --> 00:13:42.549 that specialized or chose to do those types of cases. Question, 238 00:13:42.750 --> 00:13:45.570 do you recall anyone recommending to you more involvement in 239 00:13:45.610 --> 00:13:48.360 the Epstein matter? Answer, it was 20 years ago, I 240 00:13:48.529 --> 00:13:52.220 do not. Question, okay, do you recall any direct interaction 241 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:57.279 between yourself and Maine Justice in D.C. regarding the Epstein matter? Answer. 242 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:00.039 I can either answer that or you can rephrase it 243 00:14:00.100 --> 00:14:05.279 by time periods because it varied heavily over time. Question. Well, 244 00:14:05.340 --> 00:14:09.220 start in. Answer. Would you like me to try? Question. Well, 245 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:12.230 I'll go like year by year because I imagine it, 246 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.340 but our understanding is that the case originally came to 247 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:18.399 the U.S. Attorney's Office in 2006. Do you recall any 248 00:14:18.450 --> 00:14:22.049 conversations with Maine Justice at the onset of the FBI 249 00:14:22.090 --> 00:14:25.590 and U.S. Attorney case? Answer. I do not. Question. and 250 00:14:25.610 --> 00:14:29.070 then the non-prosecution agreement was being negotiated and signed in 251 00:14:29.129 --> 00:14:32.470 mid to late 2007. Do you recall any conversations with 252 00:14:32.509 --> 00:14:36.710 DC around then? Answer, yes, there would have been some, 253 00:14:37.029 --> 00:14:40.710 and I can try and break it down if you'd like. Question, yeah. Answer, 254 00:14:41.110 --> 00:14:43.950 so to my knowledge, or at least to my recollection, 255 00:14:44.049 --> 00:14:47.549 the first communication with DC took place after, so I'm 256 00:14:47.620 --> 00:14:50.200 sure we'll be able to talk about this. I'll put 257 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:52.419 it to one side for now. But after we had 258 00:14:52.470 --> 00:14:55.570 told defense counsel that we were proceeding with requirement of 259 00:14:55.610 --> 00:14:58.850 two years imprisonment, registration, and a right for victims to 260 00:14:58.909 --> 00:15:03.149 recover monetary damages, also known as restitution, we made a 261 00:15:03.190 --> 00:15:05.929 decision and I approved that decision that we, you know, 262 00:15:06.370 --> 00:15:09.029 state attorney, had let him off entirely. That was wrong. 263 00:15:09.409 --> 00:15:13.450 And we wanted imprisonment, registration, and restitution. At that point, 264 00:15:13.490 --> 00:15:16.269 perhaps a week or some number of days later, counsel 265 00:15:16.289 --> 00:15:19.629 came in. Mr. Epstein, hired, let's just call him Epstein. 266 00:15:20.259 --> 00:15:23.759 Epstein hired additional counsel. I thought at that point that 267 00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:27.419 the case would be appealed to Washington. I communicated with 268 00:15:27.460 --> 00:15:30.200 my first assistant that they wanted a meeting. We should 269 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:32.480 give them the meeting because I didn't want the case 270 00:15:32.500 --> 00:15:35.379 to jump to Washington because I refused to hear them out. 271 00:15:36.019 --> 00:15:38.769 And so we granted the meeting. At the time, at 272 00:15:38.809 --> 00:15:42.470 my request, the head of the criminal division, child exploitation 273 00:15:42.649 --> 00:15:49.330 and obscenity section, called CEOs, Drew Osterbon, question, that sounds right, answer, 274 00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:52.039 I asked my first assistant to invite him down so 275 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:54.639 that he became aware of the case, so that he 276 00:15:54.659 --> 00:15:57.740 became aware of how we were approaching the case, and 277 00:15:57.779 --> 00:16:00.840 so that he'd be present when we heard defense pushback 278 00:16:01.419 --> 00:16:03.799 because I had a suspicion that it would end up 279 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:06.330 in Washington and thought it better to give them the 280 00:16:06.370 --> 00:16:09.470 process in South Florida so they can't say that we 281 00:16:09.509 --> 00:16:12.110 didn't give them a hearing and didn't give them their due. He, 282 00:16:13.190 --> 00:16:15.509 in fact, did come down. We had the meeting. He 283 00:16:15.549 --> 00:16:18.159 was present for the meeting. I heard out defense counsel. 284 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:20.960 I rejected. They wanted us to drop the case. Their 285 00:16:21.019 --> 00:16:23.820 theory was it was a local case. That it was 286 00:16:23.860 --> 00:16:26.379 not a federal case. Because at the time, we didn't 287 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:29.120 have evidence that he traveled with any victims. We didn't 288 00:16:29.139 --> 00:16:32.019 have evidence of that. And maybe we'll talk about this, 289 00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:35.259 but we didn't have evidence that there were other individuals involved. 290 00:16:35.620 --> 00:16:38.679 We didn't have evidence that he traveled interstate or internationally 291 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.840 with any victims. And so they wanted us to drop

it. 292 00:16:42.169 --> 00:16:45.100 I said no. They wanted us to do something similar 293 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:48.080 to the state. I said, no, we're going to stick 294 00:16:48.100 --> 00:16:50.419 to our guns. We're going to stick to our initial 295 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:54.779 offer and go negotiate. Question. You said that Epstein hired 296 00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:57.840 more counsel. Was that when he brought in Dershowitz, Lefkowitz 297 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:01.320 and Starr? Answer. I don't know when he brought in Dershowitz, 298 00:17:01.659 --> 00:17:04.460 but that's when he brought in Lefkowitz and Starr. Question. 299 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:07.740 All right. And was that the concern that they were? 300 00:17:07.819 --> 00:17:09.740 I mean, both of them had worked in the White 301 00:17:09.789 --> 00:17:12.829 House before. Was that the concern that they would elevate 302 00:17:12.869 --> 00:17:16.250 straight to D.C. because of who they are? Answer, yes. 303 00:17:16.329 --> 00:17:18.930 I mean, I mean, Dershowitz, you know, we can put 304 00:17:19.049 --> 00:17:22.269 to one side. But, you know, Lefkowitz was a Washington lawyer. 305 00:17:22.650 --> 00:17:25.740 Starr was a Washington lawyer. And, you know, I recall 306 00:17:25.779 --> 00:17:28.880 very clearly going to my first assistant and saying, Epstein 307 00:17:28.900 --> 00:17:31.299 just hired these folks. It's going to go to Washington. 308 00:17:31.660 --> 00:17:34.059 So let's give them they want a meeting. Let's give 309 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:36.259 them the process down here to try to head it 310 00:17:36.380 --> 00:17:39.369 off going to Washington. And that's exactly what it ended 311 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:42.349 up doing. Just to interject here, it went to Mukasey 312 00:17:42.670 --> 00:17:44.869 and Philippe. This is what I've told you folks from 313 00:17:44.910 --> 00:17:48.950 the very beginning. Don't fall for the shiny object. Acosta's 314 00:17:48.990 --> 00:17:53.859 just the middleman with no heart and no backbone. Question, 315 00:17:53.970 --> 00:17:57.140 and then, just who was your first assistant in your office? Answer, 316 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:00.759 so at the time, it was Mr. Sloman. Question, okay. Answer, 317 00:18:01.099 --> 00:18:04.240 he was previously criminal chief. At some point in the process, 318 00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:07.160 that shifted. I believe at the time, he was first assistant. 319 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:10.549 But when we were first notified, I believe he was 320 00:18:10.589 --> 00:18:15.509 criminal chief. Question, all right. And then what's kind of, 321 00:18:15.569 --> 00:18:18.490 you said the phrase appealed to Washington. What's kind of 322 00:18:18.509 --> 00:18:20.950 the process for you made an offer to Epstein's counsel? 323 00:18:21.490 --> 00:18:24.630 How would they appeal to Washington? Answer, so at the time, 324 00:18:24.970 --> 00:18:27.529 one of the major questions in the case was, is 325 00:18:27.569 --> 00:18:30.809 this a federal case or is it a local case? Again, 326 00:18:31.150 --> 00:18:33.170 and you know, well, I'm sure we'll talk about the 327 00:18:33.250 --> 00:18:36.029 evidence at some point, but our evidence was that there 328 00:18:36.049 --> 00:18:39.160 was no other individuals involved that there was no travel involved, 329 00:18:39.339 --> 00:18:42.200 that the victims went to his home. What happened, and 330 00:18:42.259 --> 00:18:45.519 unless we really need to, let's not get into the details, 331 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:48.390 what happened in his home, and they left. And some 332 00:18:48.410 --> 00:18:51.329 of the victims didn't come back. Other victims came back 333 00:18:51.390 --> 00:18:54.190 on other days, and the same thing happened. And other 334 00:18:54.250 --> 00:18:57.329 victims suggested that their friends, that they come back, and 335 00:18:57.349 --> 00:19:01.000 those things happened. But it was all within Palm Beach County. 336 00:19:01.220 --> 00:19:03.799 It was all local. And one of the issues was, 337 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:06.900 where is the federal connection? Where is the interstate travel? 338 00:19:08.109 --> 00:19:11.069 I have a vague recollection, but the OPR report talks 339 00:19:11.130 --> 00:19:14.329 about it with sufficient detail that I think my recollection 340 00:19:14.369 --> 00:19:17.089 is refreshed. I'm not using that as a technical term, 341 00:19:17.130 --> 00:19:21.650 so question yeah. Answer, what it means technically, that one 342 00:19:21.670 --> 00:19:24.079 of the theories was whether or not we can say 343 00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:26.799 that he traveled for the purpose of engaging in these 344 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:29.539 acts with these victims, and at the time, the question 345 00:19:29.579 --> 00:19:33.599 of law was whether travel needs, whether purpose simply needs 346 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:36.299 to be a purpose, or the dominant purpose, or a 347 00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:40.529 predominant purpose, or something along those lines. And those were 348 00:19:40.609 --> 00:19:43.250 the kinds of policy questions that I would typically talk 349 00:19:43.289 --> 00:19:46.230 about and also the kinds of policy questions that I 350 00:19:46.269 --> 00:19:49.049 could see being appealed through the entire, you know, and 351 00:19:49.089 --> 00:19:52.019 I think it's difficult today to put ourselves back in 352 00:19:52.019 --> 00:19:56.000 2006 because federalism was viewed very differently in 2006 than 353 00:19:56.460 --> 00:20:00.259 it is today. Congress was having major debates about federalization 354 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:03.660 of crime. Congress was having major debates about whether the 355 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:07.279 Department of Justice is impinging on local authority. And as 356 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:10.119 a result, those are the sorts of debates that this 357 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:14.529 local crime or federal crime that could see being

appealed 358 00:20:14.569 --> 00:20:18.630 to D.C. Question, and that would be, as much as 359 00:20:18.650 --> 00:20:22.390 you know or remember, the vague hypothetical of defense counsel 360 00:20:22.430 --> 00:20:25.170 would call someone, and in this case, in the criminal division, 361 00:20:25.670 --> 00:20:27.920 and be like, I need a ruling on whether or 362 00:20:27.970 --> 00:20:31.039 not the Southern District of Florida is interpreting the law correctly. 363 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:35.180 Something along those lines? Answer yes, or no. I mean, ultimately, 364 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:38.069 the U.S. Attorney works for the Department of Justice and 365 00:20:38.089 --> 00:20:41.549 the Department of Justice and entirely, you know, authorized and 366 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:44.750 in their right mind to overrule a U.S. Attorney or 367 00:20:44.849 --> 00:20:49.329 say that this is inappropriate and that that's their prerogative. Question, 368 00:20:49.369 --> 00:20:52.390 thank you. I want to, I'm going to, go ahead 369 00:20:52.430 --> 00:20:57.180 and introduce it as Exhibit 1. Question, it's being passed around. 370 00:20:57.579 --> 00:21:01.079 It's marked Exhibit 68 because it's pulled from the civil litigation, 371 00:21:01.460 --> 00:21:05.920 but it's Exhibit 1 for our purposes. Answer, okay. Question, 372 00:21:06.940 --> 00:21:08.660 it's a letter that you wrote to whom it may 373 00:21:08.700 --> 00:21:13.079 concern in 2011. Answer, yes. Question, do you recall writing 374 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:16.619 this letter? Answer, I do. Question, what was the purpose 375 00:21:16.660 --> 00:21:19.250 of the letter? Answer, so at the time, I believe 376 00:21:19.269 --> 00:21:21.890 there was some media concerning this and some criticism of 377 00:21:21.930 --> 00:21:24.690 the office, and I thought it important too. I didn't 378 00:21:24.730 --> 00:21:28.390 want to engage with multiple reporters. That's just not my style. 379 00:21:28.829 --> 00:21:31.049 And so I thought the best approach was to write 380 00:21:31.069 --> 00:21:34.920 an open letter defending the office and what it did. Question, 381 00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:38.740 and how did you publish or disseminate it? Answer, I 382 00:21:38.779 --> 00:21:41.059 provided it to one of the reporters that was engaged 383 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:45.390 in the story. Answer, do you recall who? Answer, I 384 00:21:45.450 --> 00:21:47.950 believe it was one of the reporters at the Daily Beast, 385 00:21:48.009 --> 00:21:51.170 I believe. Question, we're going to go through a little 386 00:21:51.210 --> 00:21:53.390 bit of this because I actually think it kind of 387 00:21:53.430 --> 00:21:58.839 lays a foundation nicely for going into more detail later. Answer, okay. Question, 388 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:00.559 but I want to go ahead and flip the page. 389 00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:03.849 I don't know who did the Bates marks, but 1796, 390 00:22:03.849 --> 00:22:08.569 the second page. Answer,

yes. Question, in the second to 391 00:22:08.609 --> 00:22:11.890 last paragraph about midway through, there's a sentence that begins, 392 00:22:12.269 --> 00:22:17.190 our judgment. Answer, our judgment, yes. Question, yeah, I'll read it. 393 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:20.420 Our judgment in this case, based on the evidence known 394 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:22.440 at the time, was it was better to have a 395 00:22:22.460 --> 00:22:25.440 billionaire serve time in jail, register as a sex offender, 396 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:29.140 and pay his victim's restitution, than risk a trial with 397 00:22:29.180 --> 00:22:33.119 a reduced likelihood of success. I supported that judgment then, 398 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:35.420 and based on the state of the law, as it 399 00:22:35.460 --> 00:22:38.500 then stood, and evidence known at the time, I would 400 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:42.390 support that judgment again. Do you? We're now 14 years 401 00:22:42.450 --> 00:22:45.809 ahead of this. Do you still support that judgment? Answer. 402 00:22:46.210 --> 00:22:48.170 So I think something that has, there are a few 403 00:22:48.250 --> 00:22:50.990 parts to this, and we can break it down. One 404 00:22:51.009 --> 00:22:54.150 question is, go to trial federal versus state. And we'll 405 00:22:54.190 --> 00:22:56.089 talk about that because I do think that there were 406 00:22:56.109 --> 00:22:59.009 some issues on the state resolution that we did not 407 00:22:59.069 --> 00:23:02.779 foresee that became an issue. I think that today there's 408 00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:05.539 also the public wants trials more than it did back 409 00:23:05.579 --> 00:23:08.819 then in some ways. There's a greater desire for just 410 00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:11.559 go for it. And a U.S. attorney, I think you've 411 00:23:11.579 --> 00:23:14.319 got to be in touch with the public desire. All 412 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:18.539 that said, myself, the prosecuting attorney, The managing attorney of 413 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:21.180 the Palm Beach office, the criminal chief, and the first 414 00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:24.910 assistant all favored pretrial resolution. It was across the board. 415 00:23:27.529 --> 00:23:30.430 I've got a statement. This is the prosecuting attorney who 416 00:23:30.450 --> 00:23:34.490 was likely the most pro-prosecution. The higher up you go 417 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.319 in management chain as a general rule, the more concern 418 00:23:37.579 --> 00:23:41.240 there was about evidence. Question, was that Ms. Villafana? Answer, 419 00:23:41.259 --> 00:23:44.619 yes it was. Question, okay. Answer, but this is her 420 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:47.779 giving a sworn declaration. I think it was a civil case, 421 00:23:47.859 --> 00:23:50.660 I can't be certain. Some have alleged that Epstein would 422 00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:53.359 have easily been convicted and that all victims were eager 423 00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:58.000 to participate in a full-fledged federal prosecution. As the prosecutor 424 00:23:58.059 --> 00:24:01.269 who handled the investigation, I can say that these contentions 425 00:24:01.690 --> 00:24:04.769 overlooked the facts that existed at the time. We would 426 00:24:04.789 --> 00:24:06.769 meet with the victims, we would ask them how they 427 00:24:06.809 --> 00:24:09.130 wanted the case to be resolved, and most of them 428 00:24:09.190 --> 00:24:11.829 wanted it to be resolved via a plea. Some of 429 00:24:11.869 --> 00:24:14.880 them wanted him not to be prosecuted at all. Most 430 00:24:14.910 --> 00:24:17.269 of them did not want to have to come to 431 00:24:17.309 --> 00:24:20.569 court to testify. And what they're leaving out here is 432 00:24:20.589 --> 00:24:22.329 that Epstein paid a lot of these girls off. A 433 00:24:22.950 --> 00:24:25.990 lot of these poor girls got money from Epstein and 434 00:24:26.049 --> 00:24:27.750 a lot of them didn't want to talk because of it. 435 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:30.900 And she goes on to say how she favored a 436 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:34.279 negotiated resolution and it was her understanding that the office 437 00:24:34.299 --> 00:24:37.200 did as well. And so now we had a little 438 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:40.380 bit later in the case, an attorney from CEOs, the 439 00:24:40.420 --> 00:24:44.849 child exploitation and obscenity section from Washington come down and 440 00:24:44.869 --> 00:24:47.650 look at the case. And this attorney went through the 441 00:24:47.670 --> 00:24:51.829 entire file. She specializes in these types of cases. And 442 00:24:51.910 --> 00:24:54.170 she went through the entire file. And she looked at 443 00:24:54.190 --> 00:24:57.339 it and said there were serious evidentiary issues. And while 444 00:24:57.380 --> 00:25:01.279 the evidentiary issues were not insurmountable, and these are her words, 445 00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:04.599 going to trial would be a quote unquote crapshoot. And 446 00:25:04.660 --> 00:25:07.240 so our thinking at the time was, you know, the 447 00:25:07.259 --> 00:25:10.039 state attorney is letting him get away with this. The 448 00:25:10.059 --> 00:25:15.109 state attorney is asking for pretrial diversion. Unacceptable. Entirely unacceptable. 449 00:25:16.099 --> 00:25:18.559 But a billionaire going to jail sends a strong signal 450 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:21.539 to the community that this is not acceptable, that this 451 00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:25.400 is not right, that this cannot happen. His registering as 452 00:25:25.460 --> 00:25:28.079 a sex offender puts the world on notice, whether the 453 00:25:28.099 --> 00:25:30.900 world listened or not. We can put that on one side, 454 00:25:31.660 --> 00:25:33.880 but it puts the world on notice that he was 455 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.799 an offender and a sexual offender. And on top of that, 456 00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:39.500 we included a means for the victims to recover monetary 457 00:25:39.539 --> 00:25:42.289 damages and Not

because we thought that makes them whole, 458 00:25:42.809 --> 00:25:45.250 but because we wanted a mechanism for them to at 459 00:25:45.289 --> 00:25:48.880 least try to restart their lives. And at the end 460 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:51.460 of the day, it was our judgment that, and my judgment, 461 00:25:51.700 --> 00:25:53.799 that the signal this would send to the community was 462 00:25:53.819 --> 00:25:56.539 an important signal. On the other hand, if we go 463 00:25:56.579 --> 00:25:58.980 to trial, and we roll the dice, and we do 464 00:25:59.019 --> 00:26:01.180 the crapshoot and we lose, what kind of signal does 465 00:26:01.220 --> 00:26:04.130 that send? That sends that he got away with it, 466 00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:07.009 that you can do that more. and so we thought 467 00:26:07.049 --> 00:26:09.390 it was very, very important to send a signal, and 468 00:26:09.410 --> 00:26:11.690 that's why, that's one of the reasons we favored the 469 00:26:11.730 --> 00:26:15.019 negotiated plea. I think less so in my mind, but 470 00:26:15.059 --> 00:26:17.740 perhaps more so in the minds of others, was concerns 471 00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:20.839 about the victims. If you look at similar declaration from 472 00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:23.420 the case agent, the case agent on the case, in 473 00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:26.099 a similar declaration, and I'll tell you what she wrote. 474 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:30.019 This is the case agent, also sworn testimony or a 475 00:26:30.049 --> 00:26:33.049 sworn statement. Many of the victims were troubled about the 476 00:26:33.130 --> 00:26:37.029 existence of the investigation. Some victims, who were identified through 477 00:26:37.049 --> 00:26:40.569 the investigation, refused even to speak to us. During the 478 00:26:40.609 --> 00:26:44.900 interviews conducted from 2006 to 2008, no victim expressed a 479 00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:49.940 strong opinion that Epstein be prosecuted. That's OPR 2001, I'm 480 00:26:49.980 --> 00:26:54.119 sorry 201. And so in part, it was influenced by that, 481 00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:56.529 and in large part it was also influenced by the 482 00:26:56.569 --> 00:27:00.619 viability and visibility of the case. Every attorney that looked 483 00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:03.640 at the case, from the prosecuting attorney again, through the 484 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:07.170 entire chain, looked at the evidence, and there were evidentiary 485 00:27:07.230 --> 00:27:11.170 issues with the victims. Many victims refused to testify. Many 486 00:27:11.210 --> 00:27:14.650 victims had changing stories. All of us understood why they 487 00:27:14.690 --> 00:27:18.349 had changing stories, but they did. The defense counsel would 488 00:27:18.390 --> 00:27:22.369 have cross-examination. It would have been withering. Many of them 489 00:27:22.430 --> 00:27:25.269 had issues in their background. They had MySpace pages. They 490 00:27:25.289 --> 00:27:27.690 had priors that would have been used against them

by 491 00:27:27.730 --> 00:27:32.470 defense counsel. These are little girls. Stop it. And that 492 00:27:32.490 --> 00:27:34.750 was at a time when, in all candor, defense could 493 00:27:34.769 --> 00:27:37.569 be much, much tougher on victims on the stand. And 494 00:27:37.589 --> 00:27:40.390 then finally, I think another factor that went into it 495 00:27:41.269 --> 00:27:44.329 in 2006 that's very different than today, and I think 496 00:27:44.349 --> 00:27:48.549 it's really, it's almost impossible for us to understand how 497 00:27:48.630 --> 00:27:51.410 different the community viewed these crimes. The best way of 498 00:27:51.470 --> 00:27:54.930 explaining that, after the OPR report came out, I read 499 00:27:55.029 --> 00:27:58.369 what the state attorney told the Office of Professional Responsibility yesterday. 500 00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:00.359 And I want to read that because I think this 501 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:03.519 is evidence of what the community thought, because this is 502 00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:07.069 what the state attorney's office thought. Question. And just for 503 00:28:07.109 --> 00:28:09.730 the record, I just want to be clear. The statements 504 00:28:09.750 --> 00:28:13.369 you're reading are from the OPR report. Answer from the 505 00:28:13.430 --> 00:28:17.109 OPR report quoting the state attorney. All right, folks, we're 506 00:28:17.130 --> 00:28:19.210 going to wrap up right here. And in the next episode, 507 00:28:19.230 --> 00:28:21.140 dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where 508 00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:23.799 we left off. All of the information that goes with 509 00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:27.500 this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone, 510 00:28:27.579 --> 00:28:31.200 and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In 511 00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:32.900 this episode, we're going to pick up where we left 512 00:28:33.059 --> 00:28:37.809 off with the Alex Acosta deposition given to Congress. And 513 00:28:37.930 --> 00:28:42.569 once again, Alex Acosta is answering the questions. Answer. And 514 00:28:42.630 --> 00:28:45.589 so the OPR report on page 15. Meanwhile, the state 515 00:28:45.609 --> 00:28:48.930 attorney's office took the unusual step of preparing to present 516 00:28:48.970 --> 00:28:51.630 the case to a grand jury. Krischer, who was the 517 00:28:51.650 --> 00:28:54.750 state attorney, told the OPR that under state law, as 518 00:28:54.789 --> 00:28:59.119 it existed until changed, not until 2010 or whenever, this 519 00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:04.279 is my first interjection, question, uh-huh, answer, but in 2016, 520 00:29:04.279 --> 00:29:08.759 as it existed. Mr. Neiman, 2007. Mr. Acosta, as it 521 00:29:08.859 --> 00:29:13.440 existed until changed, in 2016, right, 10 years after the case. 522 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.759 His office prosecuted minors as young as 14 for those actions. 523 00:29:18.589 --> 00:29:22.140 The possibility that Epstein's victims themselves could have been prosecuted 524 00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:26.119 caused great consternation within the office. His words caused a 525 00:29:26.140 --> 00:29:30.259 great consternation within his office, and according to Krischer, resulted 526 00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:32.980 in the decision to put the case before a grand jury. 527 00:29:33.809 --> 00:29:37.269 Bela Hovlik, his lead attorney, told OPR that her office 528 00:29:37.309 --> 00:29:40.549 took the allegations against Epstein seriously because it was an 529 00:29:40.670 --> 00:29:44.950 organized scheme to involve young girls by offering the money. However, 530 00:29:45.069 --> 00:29:49.099 she said, although Epstein's behavior was reprehensible, I'm limited by 531 00:29:49.130 --> 00:29:52.059 the state statutes as to what I can charge. There 532 00:29:52.099 --> 00:29:54.660 were so many issues involving the victim witnesses that, to 533 00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:58.700 my mind, in consultation with the prosecutors... And she goes 534 00:29:58.779 --> 00:30:01.299 on to say that there was an element of solicitation. 535 00:30:01.829 --> 00:30:03.809 And so I want to be crystal clear, lest I 536 00:30:03.829 --> 00:30:05.769 be taken out of context or lest I be clipped 537 00:30:05.849 --> 00:30:08.190 on this. No one in our office ever thought that 538 00:30:08.210 --> 00:30:10.910 the victims were anything less than victims. No one thought 539 00:30:10.930 --> 00:30:12.849 that they were, you know, the idea that they were 540 00:30:12.910 --> 00:30:16.410 involved as anything other than victims did not cross the 541 00:30:16.450 --> 00:30:18.480 mind of a soul. But the fact that the state 542 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:23.240 attorney's office had quote-unquote great consternation because they prosecuted women 543 00:30:23.259 --> 00:30:26.359 in these situations at the time does reflect at least 544 00:30:26.420 --> 00:30:30.049 somehow people in the Palm Beach community, thought and does 545 00:30:30.109 --> 00:30:33.730 reflect to some degree, at least what some jurors would 546 00:30:33.769 --> 00:30:36.609 think and does reflect at least to some degree, some 547 00:30:36.630 --> 00:30:39.210 of the issues that we would have faced with victims 548 00:30:39.549 --> 00:30:43.029 that had quite a bit of impeachment evidence. And ultimately, 549 00:30:43.089 --> 00:30:45.630 the trial was a crapshoot, and we just wanted the 550 00:30:45.670 --> 00:30:48.680 guy to go to jail. Question? No, thank you for 551 00:30:48.740 --> 00:30:51.839 all of that. Appreciate all the context that doesn't come 552 00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:54.619 across in the letter and doesn't always come across in 553 00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.130 everything else. I have a couple of other questions on 554 00:30:57.170 --> 00:31:00.670 what you said. So in the 2006 to 2008 timeframe, 555 00:31:00.910 --> 00:31:03.410 from when Palm Beach PD handed it over to the 556 00:31:03.529 --> 00:31:08.269 FBI to

the non-prosecution agreement, your office did interview victims? Answer, 557 00:31:08.630 --> 00:31:11.410 based on what I've read, the office did. I believe 558 00:31:11.450 --> 00:31:14.460 the office did. I did not direct the investigation, so 559 00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:17.039 I can't personally speak to it, but I believe that 560 00:31:17.059 --> 00:31:20.880 the office did. Question, and some of the evidentiary concerns 561 00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:23.029 would be that victims wouldn't be able to go on. 562 00:31:23.670 --> 00:31:25.549 didn't want to or wouldn't be able to go on 563 00:31:25.569 --> 00:31:28.210 the stand to back up their statement, but also that 564 00:31:28.250 --> 00:31:31.670 some of their statements contradicted each other or contradicted themselves. 565 00:31:32.069 --> 00:31:35.670 Is that a fair summary? Answer. Some refused to talk whatsoever. 566 00:31:36.190 --> 00:31:39.099 Others said he did nothing wrong and we were just wrong. 567 00:31:39.619 --> 00:31:42.759 And again, we knew what we had. But if someone 568 00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:45.920 tells the FBI he did nothing wrong, that's the evidence 569 00:31:45.940 --> 00:31:49.880 you have, right? Answer. Uh-huh. Question. Some changed their story. 570 00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:53.150 Some had MySpace pages that would be used. On impeachment, 571 00:31:53.269 --> 00:31:56.430 some had priors. And so, you know, this isn't my opinion. 572 00:31:56.769 --> 00:31:59.410 This is the opinion of every, you know, every individual 573 00:31:59.470 --> 00:32:01.930 in the office that looked at the case. This is 574 00:32:01.970 --> 00:32:05.299 the managing, the Palm Beach managing attorney, everybody at the U.S. 575 00:32:05.339 --> 00:32:08.549 attorney's office working on the matter. had expressed concerns at 576 00:32:08.589 --> 00:32:12.410 various times about the long-term visibility of a federal prosecution 577 00:32:12.430 --> 00:32:15.529 of Epstein due to factual and legal hurdles, as well 578 00:32:15.569 --> 00:32:18.369 as issues with the cooperation and the desire of victims. 579 00:32:19.049 --> 00:32:21.549 And so every person that looked at the case had 580 00:32:21.670 --> 00:32:25.230 serious and substantial concerns about how the victims would, I 581 00:32:25.269 --> 00:32:28.890 believe my first assistant described it, as withering impeachment by 582 00:32:28.930 --> 00:32:32.150 the defense. Question you've mentioned kind of the lack of 583 00:32:32.230 --> 00:32:35.420 evidence beyond victim statements. I believe the Palm Beach PD, 584 00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:37.880 or it might have been the FBI, got, you know, 585 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:41.089 like message pads out of Epstein's home and a couple 586 00:32:41.130 --> 00:32:43.650 of items of evidence. But after the Palm Beach PD 587 00:32:44.089 --> 00:32:47.109 executed their search warrant on the house, they described it 588 00:32:47.170 --> 00:32:50.170 as being cleaned up. Do you recall any of that?

Answer, 589 00:32:50.369 --> 00:32:54.990 I don't. Question, um. Answer, my recollection based on the 590 00:32:55.049 --> 00:32:58.180 opinions given to me. So as U.S. attorney, my background 591 00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:01.410 when I was litigating was an appellate lawyer. And my 592 00:33:01.470 --> 00:33:04.990 approach was, I'm the legal issues guy. I'm the policy guy. 593 00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:07.400 The Miami office is known as one of the best 594 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:09.720 trial offices in the country. We have a lot of 595 00:33:09.740 --> 00:33:13.420 great trial lawyers. I trust their judgment on this. And 596 00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:16.000 I still trust their judgment on this because they have 597 00:33:16.019 --> 00:33:19.480 been doing this for years. My criminal chief at the time, Mr. Menchel, 598 00:33:19.779 --> 00:33:23.430 had done sex crimes cases before. Yeah, was that before 599 00:33:23.450 --> 00:33:28.319 or after? He was skiing with Jeffrey Epstein. And so 600 00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:30.700 those matters, I would look to them for their judgment, 601 00:33:30.740 --> 00:33:33.200 but based on what I know, I think their judgments 602 00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:37.529 were valid. Question, were there ever any discussions about a 603 00:33:37.589 --> 00:33:40.190 lack of digital evidence, a lack of computer hard drives 604 00:33:40.250 --> 00:33:43.970 or videos or photos or anything like that? Answer, I 605 00:33:43.990 --> 00:33:48.039 don't recall the discussions with that degree of granularity. I 606 00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.640 believe the discussions would have been we've looked at the evidence. 607 00:33:51.140 --> 00:33:54.079 There are a lot of issues going to trial. Question, 608 00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:56.559 I want to come back to the letter itself. And 609 00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:00.259 I'm going to try to work down the letter. Answer. Yes. Question. 610 00:34:00.579 --> 00:34:03.339 The third paragraph on the first page, you discussed how 611 00:34:03.380 --> 00:34:06.640 local police were dissatisfied and then talk about how a 612 00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:10.159 case can become a federal criminal prosecution as an interstate 613 00:34:10.179 --> 00:34:14.909 nexus and then as a backstop to state authorities. Answer. Yes. Question. 614 00:34:15.309 --> 00:34:18.010 Do you recall your team ever uncovering potential witnesses in 615 00:34:18.050 --> 00:34:21.329 New York? Answer. I do not. Question. Do you recall 616 00:34:21.469 --> 00:34:24.650 reading it since? Answer. Yes, I have read it since. Well, 617 00:34:24.690 --> 00:34:26.980 let me be clear. I have not. Read that my 618 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:30.260 team discovered witnesses in New York since. I have read 619 00:34:30.300 --> 00:34:33.199 that there are witnesses in New York. Question. Okay. Do 620 00:34:33.219 --> 00:34:35.539 you recall if your office ever got flight logs of 621 00:34:35.619 --> 00:34:39.199 Epstein's private jet? Answer. I can't speak to

what evidence 622 00:34:39.260 --> 00:34:42.480 we had or didn't have. Question. Is that because you 623 00:34:42.500 --> 00:34:47.440 don't remember the evidence or? Answer. I don't remember the evidence. Question. 624 00:34:47.539 --> 00:34:49.780 At the time, was your office aware that Epstein had 625 00:34:49.820 --> 00:34:52.650 houses in New York, New Mexico, and an island in 626 00:34:52.670 --> 00:34:55.550 the Virgin Islands? Answer. We were aware that he had 627 00:34:55.570 --> 00:34:58.869 multiple houses. I don't know. I assume they would have 628 00:34:58.889 --> 00:35:01.769 known exactly where those houses were. I don't know if 629 00:35:02.369 --> 00:35:04.570 that was all his houses or what, but as a 630 00:35:04.590 --> 00:35:08.219 general matter, yes. Question. And when you had mentioned one 631 00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:10.579 of the legal issues was kind of was there to 632 00:35:10.619 --> 00:35:13.380 create a federal nexus, was there a purpose of traveling 633 00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:16.719 across state lines or internationally to commit the crime? And 634 00:35:16.739 --> 00:35:20.110 then what kind of like amount of purpose the crime 635 00:35:20.139 --> 00:35:24.969 had to be? A good layman's explanation. Answer. That's a 636 00:35:24.989 --> 00:35:28.059 good layman's explanation. and here's why this is important in 637 00:35:28.099 --> 00:35:30.820 my mind. I don't recall it was 20 years ago, 638 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.480 but if there had been clear evidence that he traveled 639 00:35:33.500 --> 00:35:36.019 from Florida to New York with a minor victim in 640 00:35:36.099 --> 00:35:39.480 order to engage sexual activity in New York, then we 641 00:35:39.500 --> 00:35:42.599 wouldn't have had to debate after debate after debate about 642 00:35:42.619 --> 00:35:45.860 the degree of purpose on an entirely different statute that 643 00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:48.909 involves traveling from one place to another by yourself in 644 00:35:49.010 --> 00:35:51.989 order to engage in sexual activity at the second location. 645 00:35:52.750 --> 00:35:55.250 And those discussions would not have happened If we had 646 00:35:55.329 --> 00:35:58.449 evidence of clear interstate travel. And so while I don't 647 00:35:58.489 --> 00:36:02.050 have clear recollection from 20 years ago, it follows that 648 00:36:02.110 --> 00:36:06.920 given all those discussions, we didn't have evidence of interstate travel. Question. 649 00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:13.519 So is there then to that a cost of cuts in? Yeah. Question. 650 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.159 So this is kind of a crude question, but is 651 00:36:16.179 --> 00:36:18.480 there a difference? And correct me if I'm wrong. This 652 00:36:18.539 --> 00:36:21.320 is how I understand what you just said. A difference 653 00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:23.559 in traveling with a minor to a second location for 654 00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:27.039 the purpose of nefarious activity versus traveling alone to the 655 00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:34.380 second location to meet someone for the purpose of nefarious activity. Answer, absolutely. Question, okay. Answer, 656 00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:36.860 traveling with a minor across state lines makes it a 657 00:36:36.909 --> 00:36:40.949 federal case, but traveling from state to state in order 658 00:36:40.989 --> 00:36:43.230 to engage in activity with a person at state too, 659 00:36:43.510 --> 00:36:46.530 then that, that's the conversations that we had. And those 660 00:36:46.570 --> 00:36:49.369 conversations would not have happened if we had clear evidence 661 00:36:49.409 --> 00:36:54.369 of the first. Question, okay. So would that, the second instance, 662 00:36:54.449 --> 00:36:57.000 traveling to a second location for the purpose of engaging 663 00:36:57.340 --> 00:37:00.860 in nefarious activity, that's the conversation of whether or not 664 00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:04.320 it's now a Florida, New Mexico, like Florida case, New 665 00:37:04.360 --> 00:37:08.610 Mexico case, New York case, versus lumping it all together? Answer, 666 00:37:08.860 --> 00:37:11.889 I don't understand. I'm not with you. Question, so I'll 667 00:37:11.909 --> 00:37:15.289 be more specific. The first kind of known tip is 668 00:37:15.369 --> 00:37:20.750 from Marie and Annie Farmer in 1997. Maria Farmer alleging 669 00:37:20.769 --> 00:37:23.230 that Epstein assaulted her in New York as a minor, 670 00:37:23.510 --> 00:37:26.590 and Danny Farmer alleging that Mr. Epstein assaulted her in 671 00:37:26.630 --> 00:37:30.050 New Mexico as a minor. So my understanding of those allegations, 672 00:37:30.429 --> 00:37:32.909 and I apologize if I get it wrong, is that 673 00:37:32.949 --> 00:37:35.909 they were flown to those locations, not with Epstein, but 674 00:37:36.210 --> 00:37:39.480 met Epstein there. Answer. So I don't know those facts, 675 00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:42.000 and I can't discuss those facts. I can discuss the 676 00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:44.639 facts about South Florida, and I don't know to what 677 00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:50.230 degree our office was aware of that information. Question. I'm sorry, 678 00:37:50.250 --> 00:37:53.739 never mind. Okay, it's helpful to know. But, like, when 679 00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:56.860 we hear those tips, we sound, it sounds to us, like, 680 00:37:56.980 --> 00:38:01.619 that's clear interstate. Answer, right? Question, nexus, right? Like, you've 681 00:38:01.659 --> 00:38:04.300 got three states involved. I don't know if I would 682 00:38:04.340 --> 00:38:07.500 be a prosecution in New Mexico, a prosecution in New York, 683 00:38:07.780 --> 00:38:12.599 and a prosecution in Florida, or... Acosta cuts in. Again, 684 00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:15.639 I can only speak to our understanding was that this 685 00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:18.119 was a South Florida matter, And that there were multiple 686 00:38:18.179 --> 00:38:21.889 attorneys debating whether we had an interstate nexus, debates which

687 00:38:21.929 --> 00:38:25.070 would have taken place, and OPR talks about those debates. 688 00:38:25.610 --> 00:38:28.610 And OPR talks about, you know, the legal issues. I 689 00:38:28.630 --> 00:38:30.929 think at one point the managing attorney, let me see 690 00:38:30.969 --> 00:38:33.869 if I can find this because it seems relevant. I 691 00:38:33.909 --> 00:38:36.150 can't find it now. But at some point the managing 692 00:38:36.190 --> 00:38:38.840 attorney for Palm Beach said that he thought that the 693 00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:41.760 argument about whether or not travel to Florida for purposes 694 00:38:41.820 --> 00:38:44.960 of sex, whether we win or not, was a closer 695 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:48.230 call than our prosecuting attorney thought. So there was a 696 00:38:48.269 --> 00:38:51.219 debate ongoing, and I don't see why we would have 697 00:38:51.260 --> 00:38:54.460 had that debate if we had that scheme. And I 698 00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:57.420 think that one of the important distinctions here is that, 699 00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:00.980 from a 2025 perspective, this is a big scheme. This 700 00:39:01.179 --> 00:39:05.929 is international. There are other individuals involved, you know? The 701 00:39:05.949 --> 00:39:07.829 way it's talked about in the media, the way, you know, 702 00:39:08.210 --> 00:39:10.750 given what the victims say now, and those victims, let 703 00:39:10.769 --> 00:39:13.710 me just say, I thought they were very confident. I 704 00:39:13.750 --> 00:39:16.539 thought they were courageous. I heard their statements and you know, 705 00:39:16.619 --> 00:39:19.559 wow is enough, right? But you know, back then, again, 706 00:39:19.619 --> 00:39:22.260 the words of the prosecuting attorney, none of the victims 707 00:39:22.300 --> 00:39:25.110 that we ever spoke to, these are their words, ever 708 00:39:25.150 --> 00:39:27.769 talked about any other men being involved in abusing them. 709 00:39:28.150 --> 00:39:32.489 That's OPR 167. We already talked about the travel. And 710 00:39:32.570 --> 00:39:36.090 so from our perspective, this was a local case, as 711 00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:39.300 I understood it. They went to his house, they left. 712 00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:42.619 Some didn't come back, some did. Some came back with others, 713 00:39:42.699 --> 00:39:47.230 that's it. Question, And so the interstate nexus debate, what 714 00:39:47.250 --> 00:39:49.769 you're having, just so I'm clear, is he would travel 715 00:39:49.809 --> 00:39:52.909 from New York, Virgin Islands, Paris, New Mexico, wherever, to 716 00:39:52.949 --> 00:39:56.360 Florida for the purpose of nefarious activity, and whether or 717 00:39:56.409 --> 00:40:03.599 not that was sufficient enough to meet the federal nexus? Answer, correct. Question, okay. Answer, 718 00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:07.119 our attorneys were trying to establish was whether we could say, 719 00:40:07.179 --> 00:40:10.000 because he knew that these women were present in Palm Beach, 720 00:40:10.420 --> 00:40:12.340 that he would travel from New York or Paris or 721 00:40:12.380 --> 00:40:15.289 Virgin Islands, or the places that you mentioned to Palm Beach, 722 00:40:15.630 --> 00:40:18.039 so that he can engage in what he engaged in 723 00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:20.559 with these women, and whether or not he had to 724 00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:26.079 be dominant, or whether that simply had to be a purpose. Question? Okay, 725 00:40:26.139 --> 00:40:28.900 thank you. Sorry that took a while. Alright, we're going 726 00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:30.889 to wrap up right here, and in the next episode, 727 00:40:30.929 --> 00:40:33.210 we're going to pick up where we left off. All 728 00:40:33.230 --> 00:40:35.429 of the information that goes with this episode can be 729 00:40:35.469 --> 00:40:37.250 found in the description box.